Author Topic: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck  (Read 6126 times)

neo von retorch

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One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck (Bloomberg)

Hacker News Discussion

Quote
More than a third of Americans earning at least $250,000 annually say they are living paycheck to paycheck, underscoring how inflation is taking a bigger bite out of Americans’ budgets at all ends of the pay spectrum.
(emphasis mine)

In my opinion, inflation might be the result of these people choosing to live beyond their means... not the other way around! (But of course those on the lower scale of income will feel the effects of inflation, and it may bust their budgets.)

Quote
Some 36% of households taking in nearly four times the median US salary devote nearly all of their income to household expenses
Well, how exactly are you defining "household expenses"? Oh yes - 3 vacations a year. Expensive "fast fashion." Throwing your kids into every activity.

Quote
Living paycheck-to-paycheck doesn’t necessarily mean hardship... Only a fraction of high earners -- roughly one in ten -- reported issues covering all their household expenses in April, according to the survey.
Right - you're redefining "living paycheck-to-paycheck" which (in my opinion) means barely covering necessary living expenses, not lifestyle choices!

dcheesi

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2022, 11:48:38 AM »
The other thing they're glossing over is existing assets. You can be just breaking even on your current income v. expenses, but still be financially secure due to savings, investments, etc. that you socked away earlier in life (and/or from some windfall like inheritance). That's not nearly the same thing as a family that is doing the same cash-flow balancing act, but with no reserves to draw upon.

RWD

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2022, 08:07:13 AM »
More than half of millennials making $250k+ spend their entire paycheck? Wow...

The article doesn't seem to talk about retirement contributions though. You can spend your whole paycheck but still be maxing your 401k. I'd like to hold on a little hope for humanity that those making $250k are putting something away in retirement.

ducky19

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2022, 08:31:31 AM »
I just love how they completely exclude Gen X out of the analysis.

ixtap

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2022, 09:41:09 AM »
I just love how they completely exclude Gen X out of the analysis.

We just don't exist in any generational conversation. Don't see much of A yet, either even though we have been going on and on about Millennials since they oldest were teens.

joe189man

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2022, 09:56:34 AM »
i bet this number (1/3) is low, anecdotally at my DS-2 daycare, i often drive one of the oldest and smallest vehicles (2010 mazda 3 hatch) at daycare and school drop off. i often see new or nearly new tahoes, teslas and other SUVs that must cost $1k+ a month in payments. DS-1 drop off at school is worse, ford raptors, BMW x7s, new tahoes/yukons, mercedes SUVs, jacked out jeeps and teslas.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2022, 08:40:14 AM by joe189man »

RWD

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2022, 10:03:06 AM »
i bet this number (1/3) is low, anecdotally at my DS-2 daycare, i often drive one of the oldest and smallest vehicles (2010 mazda 3 hatch) at drop off. i often see new or nearly new tahoes, teslas and other SUVs that must cost $1k+ a month in payments. DS-1 drop off at school is worse, ford raptors, BMW x7s, new tahoes/yukons, mercedes SUVs, jacked out jeeps and teslas.
Well I doubt many Boomers (the ones keeping the average down in this article) are still bringing their kids to daycare. Millennials are 50+%, so that's probably what you're seeing.

ixtap

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2022, 10:51:26 AM »
More than half of millennials making $250k+ spend their entire paycheck? Wow...

The article doesn't seem to talk about retirement contributions though. You can spend your whole paycheck but still be maxing your 401k. I'd like to hold on a little hope for humanity that those making $250k are putting something away in retirement.

Between 401k (including MBR), HSA and ESPP, we generally can't even live on our paychecks. Most of the year we live off the cash bonus, maybe the proceeds from ESPP.

Hall11235

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2022, 11:05:12 AM »
A millennial here. (This is ALL anecdotal, btw)

I may have spoken about this before, but, in my 25-35 year old peer group, there is this general sense of malaise. We will NEVER be able to afford the life our parents and grandparents had for a variety of reasons outside of our control (bunch of wah wah garbage). We will never be able to save up for retirement because of the crippling student loans, unaffordable house, etc. A complete repulsion of personal financial responsibility because its 'too hard.'

This turns into "we're here for a good time, not a long time" really fast. Suddenly, you are living "paycheck to paycheck" but that includes 8 different streaming services, funding your budding NFT collection, your trips to Maui to make your insta pop, etc.

We are the complain-y generation, and its driving me nuts.

cool7hand

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2022, 11:07:23 AM »
Amusing. Thanks for sharing!

ixtap

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2022, 11:13:38 AM »
A millennial here. (This is ALL anecdotal, btw)

I may have spoken about this before, but, in my 25-35 year old peer group, there is this general sense of malaise. We will NEVER be able to afford the life our parents and grandparents had for a variety of reasons outside of our control (bunch of wah wah garbage). We will never be able to save up for retirement because of the crippling student loans, unaffordable house, etc. A complete repulsion of personal financial responsibility because its 'too hard.'

This turns into "we're here for a good time, not a long time" really fast. Suddenly, you are living "paycheck to paycheck" but that includes 8 different streaming services, funding your budding NFT collection, your trips to Maui to make your insta pop, etc.

We are the complain-y generation, and its driving me nuts.

I am not sure how any of that is different from my Gen X peers who are ~50. We were convinced as children that we would not be able to go outside due to the ozone hole and even if we did go outside, it would be a garbage heap, all assuming Reagan and Gorbie managed to not blow us up first. As adults, many have seen long term unemployment both during the dot com bust and the Great Recession. We are a generation of pessimists.

Hall11235

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2022, 11:20:15 AM »
A millennial here. (This is ALL anecdotal, btw)

I may have spoken about this before, but, in my 25-35 year old peer group, there is this general sense of malaise. We will NEVER be able to afford the life our parents and grandparents had for a variety of reasons outside of our control (bunch of wah wah garbage). We will never be able to save up for retirement because of the crippling student loans, unaffordable house, etc. A complete repulsion of personal financial responsibility because its 'too hard.'

This turns into "we're here for a good time, not a long time" really fast. Suddenly, you are living "paycheck to paycheck" but that includes 8 different streaming services, funding your budding NFT collection, your trips to Maui to make your insta pop, etc.

We are the complain-y generation, and its driving me nuts.

I am not sure how any of that is different from my Gen X peers who are ~50. We were convinced as children that we would not be able to go outside due to the ozone hole and even if we did go outside, it would be a garbage heap, all assuming Reagan and Gorbie managed to not blow us up first. As adults, many have seen long term unemployment both during the dot com bust and the Great Recession. We are a generation of pessimists.

I'm not saying its any different! :D It actually annoys me how myopic my peers are. Life is tough on everyone, not just "us". Just providing the litany of excuses I hear as to why saving is beyond their grasp. "I can't save any money! I have expensive pokemon cards from my childhood to buy that I will never resell!"

PDXTabs

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2022, 12:03:11 PM »
The other thing they're glossing over is existing assets. You can be just breaking even on your current income v. expenses, but still be financially secure due to savings, investments, etc. that you socked away earlier in life (and/or from some windfall like inheritance). That's not nearly the same thing as a family that is doing the same cash-flow balancing act, but with no reserves to draw upon.

Usually when the Fed does the survey they ask "could you come up with $400 for an emergency without selling assets or taking on debt." Obviously, if you are making $250k/yr you should have an extra $400 kicking around. But technically if you put every spare dollar into gold and equities you would show up in the "didn't have $400" set.

Hall11235

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2022, 12:06:25 PM »
The other thing they're glossing over is existing assets. You can be just breaking even on your current income v. expenses, but still be financially secure due to savings, investments, etc. that you socked away earlier in life (and/or from some windfall like inheritance). That's not nearly the same thing as a family that is doing the same cash-flow balancing act, but with no reserves to draw upon.

Usually when the Fed does the survey they ask "could you come up with $400 for an emergency without selling assets or taking on debt." Obviously, if you are making $250k/yr you should have an extra $400 kicking around. But technically if you put every spare dollar into gold and equities you would show up in the "didn't have $400" set.

"I'm so sorry, plumber who came to fix my exploding pipes. Will you take some gold shavings?"

PDXTabs

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2022, 12:09:54 PM »
The other thing they're glossing over is existing assets. You can be just breaking even on your current income v. expenses, but still be financially secure due to savings, investments, etc. that you socked away earlier in life (and/or from some windfall like inheritance). That's not nearly the same thing as a family that is doing the same cash-flow balancing act, but with no reserves to draw upon.

Usually when the Fed does the survey they ask "could you come up with $400 for an emergency without selling assets or taking on debt." Obviously, if you are making $250k/yr you should have an extra $400 kicking around. But technically if you put every spare dollar into gold and equities you would show up in the "didn't have $400" set.

"I'm so sorry, plumber who came to fix my exploding pipes. Will you take some gold shavings?"

Does it matter if I (hypothetically) could cover it with my credit card?

ixtap

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2022, 12:14:59 PM »
I don't know about this survey, but investopedia explicitly included "little or no savings" in their definition of paycheck to paycheck. The main focus there is being particularly vulnerable to job loss.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 12:27:13 PM by ixtap »

PDXTabs

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2022, 12:25:59 PM »
I don't know about this survey, but investopedia explicitly included "little or no savings" in their definition. The main there is being particularly vulnerable to job loss.

I found a Fed breakdown:
https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2021-economic-well-being-of-us-households-in-2020-dealing-with-unexpected-expenses.htm

To be fair it's not that many people who might slip through into the "use money from a bank loan or line of credit" (2%) that might be using a margin loan or "sell something" (6%) that might be selling equities/gold/REITs. But 15% say "put it on a credit card and pay it off over time." That could be two cycles while you continue to max out your 401k for tax savings.

mizzourah2006

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2022, 02:11:15 PM »
I could see this.

Assuming you are MFJ, have a kid or two, and live in a state with an income tax and you contributed a bit to a 401k you'd likely owe about ~$70-$75K (state, federal, SS, Medicare) in taxes.

So that would leave you with ~$180k in income. Say you contributed $15k of that to a retirement account. Now you have $165k left. We live in a low cost of living area and live pretty frugally compared to our friends and with daycare, summer camps, weddings, vacations, etc. We'll probably spend about $82-$85k this year.

- I could easily see our mortgage being 2-2.5x as big, either in a more expensive area or a 2x nicer house (ours is relatively small at 2.2k sq ft), so +$20-$30k.
- I paid off all my SL debt, but most don't, so + $5-$10k.
- We quickly paid off our cars, but most just have revolving car payments, so + $10-$12k.
- We barely eat out compared to most people, so + $5k.
- Our grocery bills are relatively low compared to most people I know, so + $5k.
- A couple additional nice weekend getaways, +$3-$5k.

We're already from $85k to $150k right there. That's $15k/yr left over. I could easily see people spending that on hobbies, or other random stuff like shopping, etc. I have girl friends that spend ~$5-$10k/yr on botox and other similar skincare routines. I have buddies that spend $6-$10k/yr on beer, etc.

I wouldn't consider my family frugal compared to many here, but compared to most of my friends we are extremely frugal. I am even the common butt of jokes about my frugality.

I'd consider a lifestyle like that fairly "normal" and pretty close to paycheck to paycheck. I'd also consider it unwise, but from what I see it's not all that uncommon, even in the midwest/south.



JLee

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2022, 02:24:52 PM »
I could see this.

Assuming you are MFJ, have a kid or two, and live in a state with an income tax and you contributed a bit to a 401k you'd likely owe about ~$70-$75K (state, federal, SS, Medicare) in taxes.

So that would leave you with ~$180k in income. Say you contributed $15k of that to a retirement account. Now you have $165k left. We live in a low cost of living area and live pretty frugally compared to our friends and with daycare, summer camps, weddings, vacations, etc. We'll probably spend about $82-$85k this year.

- I could easily see our mortgage being 2-2.5x as big, either in a more expensive area or a 2x nicer house (ours is relatively small at 2.2k sq ft), so +$20-$30k.
- I paid off all my SL debt, but most don't, so + $5-$10k.
- We quickly paid off our cars, but most just have revolving car payments, so + $10-$12k.
- We barely eat out compared to most people, so + $5k.
- Our grocery bills are relatively low compared to most people I know, so + $5k.
- A couple additional nice weekend getaways, +$3-$5k.

We're already from $85k to $150k right there. That's $15k/yr left over. I could easily see people spending that on hobbies, or other random stuff like shopping, etc. I have girl friends that spend ~$5-$10k/yr on botox and other similar skincare routines. I have buddies that spend $6-$10k/yr on beer, etc.

I wouldn't consider my family frugal compared to many here, but compared to most of my friends we are extremely frugal. I am even the common butt of jokes about my frugality.

I'd consider a lifestyle like that fairly "normal" and pretty close to paycheck to paycheck. I'd also consider it unwise, but from what I see it's not all that uncommon, even in the midwest/south.

That all seems crazy high to me and I live in HCOL area, lol. My mortgage/taxes/insurance on a reasonably nice house is under $35k/yr entirely.

neo von retorch

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2022, 02:40:28 PM »
Yeah those sorts of breakdowns can be found in these examples.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/09/budget-breakdown-of-a-couple...
$200k / year, max out 401k ($18k) but... $700k home, child care/lessons, vacations, car/gas

https://www.financialsamurai.com/scraping-by-on-500000-a-yea...
$500k / year, max out 401k but... whoa. 40% taxes and huge student loans don't help. $1.5m home, expensive vacations and cars, etc.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2022, 11:54:43 PM »
Yeah those sorts of breakdowns can be found in these examples.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/09/budget-breakdown-of-a-couple...
$200k / year, max out 401k ($18k) but... $700k home, child care/lessons, vacations, car/gas

https://www.financialsamurai.com/scraping-by-on-500000-a-yea...
$500k / year, max out 401k but... whoa. 40% taxes and huge student loans don't help. $1.5m home, expensive vacations and cars, etc.

So they are quote Sam’s recycled examples?

mizzourah2006

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2022, 06:01:27 AM »
That all seems crazy high to me and I live in HCOL area, lol. My mortgage/taxes/insurance on a reasonably nice house is under $35k/yr entirely.

When did you buy your home? Mine's only $20k on a 15 year note, but I only owe $155k on a home I purchased in 2012 for $220k (I did a partial cash out refi last year). My same home today goes for ~$450k. I'd imagine that today $700k doesn't buy you much in HCOL places, so it's pretty easy to assume a couple in a HCOL area might buy a house in the $700-$1 million range assuming they can afford it.

If we assume a mortgage of $600k on a 30 year note at ~4.5% interest and reasonable taxes and insurance you're looking at $45-$50k/yr just in your PITI. Throw in a kid or two in daycare and boom you're already at ~$90k. 

Like I said above, it's not a route I'd take, but it's not a route I'd call out as all that abnormal for high earning households trying to "fit in"

joe189man

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2022, 10:06:22 AM »
That all seems crazy high to me and I live in HCOL area, lol. My mortgage/taxes/insurance on a reasonably nice house is under $35k/yr entirely.

When did you buy your home? Mine's only $20k on a 15 year note, but I only owe $155k on a home I purchased in 2012 for $220k (I did a partial cash out refi last year). My same home today goes for ~$450k. I'd imagine that today $700k doesn't buy you much in HCOL places, so it's pretty easy to assume a couple in a HCOL area might buy a house in the $700-$1 million range assuming they can afford it.

If we assume a mortgage of $600k on a 30 year note at ~4.5% interest and reasonable taxes and insurance you're looking at $45-$50k/yr just in your PITI. Throw in a kid or two in daycare and boom you're already at ~$90k. 

Like I said above, it's not a route I'd take, but it's not a route I'd call out as all that abnormal for high earning households trying to "fit in"

Before DS-1 was in daycare, about 4 years ago, annually we spent;

~$36k on daycare (2 kids)
~$30k on Mortgage (original Loan of ~$465k)
~$8k on a minivan (~$38k all in purchase price) (now paid off)

or ~$74k just on three things  (currently we have ~$52k on mortgage and child care)

homes in our area now cost $800k and an equivalent car would be 50k

~$38k on daycare (2 kids)
~$50k on Mortgage
~$12k on a $50k car

or ~$100k - this is a ~33% increase in costs in about 4 years for a similar family

Add a new truck to the new SUV and you have ~$114k annually


JLee

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2022, 10:26:07 AM »
That all seems crazy high to me and I live in HCOL area, lol. My mortgage/taxes/insurance on a reasonably nice house is under $35k/yr entirely.

When did you buy your home? Mine's only $20k on a 15 year note, but I only owe $155k on a home I purchased in 2012 for $220k (I did a partial cash out refi last year). My same home today goes for ~$450k. I'd imagine that today $700k doesn't buy you much in HCOL places, so it's pretty easy to assume a couple in a HCOL area might buy a house in the $700-$1 million range assuming they can afford it.

If we assume a mortgage of $600k on a 30 year note at ~4.5% interest and reasonable taxes and insurance you're looking at $45-$50k/yr just in your PITI. Throw in a kid or two in daycare and boom you're already at ~$90k. 

Like I said above, it's not a route I'd take, but it's not a route I'd call out as all that abnormal for high earning households trying to "fit in"

I did get lucky - bought in 2019 for $440k and then refinanced down to 2.5%.  Current property taxes are just under $15k and I think the house is worth $550-600k.  There are certainly more expensive areas, so maybe that's the part I'm missing (with current traffic I'm 30min to NYC at the GWB or ~35min via the Lincoln tunnel). 

Daycare is high for sure, but that wasn't on the example I quoted. I was thrown by the "$20-30k/yr extra for a nicer house" (though on second reading it might mean $20-30k/yr total, not additional delta) and if you're making $250k household, that's just wayyyy too aggressive (IMO).  I get people buying $1mil houses, but doing that on a $250k household income is (again IMO) nuts.

EngineerOurFI

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2022, 08:16:25 AM »
I really, really don't like the term "living paycheck-to-paycheck"...I find it about as useful as the term "millionaire"

Prior to ~2015, the term "millionaire" always meant someone with over one million dollars in net assets.  I feel like the definition never changed, and yet suddenly you had reporters in legitimate news sources ranging from NY Times to CNN to Fox News who were using the term for someone making one million dollars per year of income......which is an ENTIRELY different thing.

I give this example as I feel the term "living paycheck-to-paycheck" is similarly misused.  For instance, would I classify myself as living paycheck-to-paycheck?  I mean, yeah.  I'm not FI.  I'm not CoastFI.  I'm not even BaristaFIRE based on my perceived needs.  So honestly I could easily see how if someone were to give me a survey I could be forced to answer I'm "living paycheck-to-paycheck."

Now, am I REALLY paycheck-to-paycheck by the definition that people maybe originally meant it?  Probably not.  I mean, if I was fired from my job tomorrow, could I buy groceries? Of course.  If I was fired from my job tomorrow, could I manage to pay the mortgage for a bit? Sure.  Will anyone come repo my cars? Nope, they're paid off.  Am I living enough below my means that if I was fired tomorrow could I find a low paying job that would keep me from being homeless?  I definitely think so. 

But ultimately until the day I reach FI, I can't say that I'm NOT living paycheck-to-paycheck unless you give me a very specific more narrow definition.  As such, I think most surveys on this topic are basically useless.

JLee

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2022, 08:41:59 AM »
I really, really don't like the term "living paycheck-to-paycheck"...I find it about as useful as the term "millionaire"

Prior to ~2015, the term "millionaire" always meant someone with over one million dollars in net assets.  I feel like the definition never changed, and yet suddenly you had reporters in legitimate news sources ranging from NY Times to CNN to Fox News who were using the term for someone making one million dollars per year of income......which is an ENTIRELY different thing.

I give this example as I feel the term "living paycheck-to-paycheck" is similarly misused.  For instance, would I classify myself as living paycheck-to-paycheck?  I mean, yeah.  I'm not FI.  I'm not CoastFI.  I'm not even BaristaFIRE based on my perceived needs.  So honestly I could easily see how if someone were to give me a survey I could be forced to answer I'm "living paycheck-to-paycheck."

Now, am I REALLY paycheck-to-paycheck by the definition that people maybe originally meant it?  Probably not.  I mean, if I was fired from my job tomorrow, could I buy groceries? Of course.  If I was fired from my job tomorrow, could I manage to pay the mortgage for a bit? Sure.  Will anyone come repo my cars? Nope, they're paid off.  Am I living enough below my means that if I was fired tomorrow could I find a low paying job that would keep me from being homeless?  I definitely think so. 

But ultimately until the day I reach FI, I can't say that I'm NOT living paycheck-to-paycheck unless you give me a very specific more narrow definition.  As such, I think most surveys on this topic are basically useless.

I think in that context it's generally a "I have $xxx to get me by until payday," whereas for most people on this forum our paycheck intervals are largely irrelevant.

neo von retorch

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2022, 09:13:55 AM »
The key word in the phrase is living. Like literally your housing and food expenses come out of and consume your paycheck. For sure, plenty of people voluntarily submit themselves to living paycheck-to-paycheck by also spending the margin of their paycheck on discretionary expenses. (And it's hard to blame them, when the margin is small, and they have little means to put towards quality of life.)

But no, if you have savings you can use to cover your living expenses, regardless of income level, and can pay for your living expenses even if you would miss a paycheck, you're not living paycheck-to-paycheck.

charis

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2022, 10:25:52 AM »
I really, really don't like the term "living paycheck-to-paycheck"...I find it about as useful as the term "millionaire"

Prior to ~2015, the term "millionaire" always meant someone with over one million dollars in net assets.  I feel like the definition never changed, and yet suddenly you had reporters in legitimate news sources ranging from NY Times to CNN to Fox News who were using the term for someone making one million dollars per year of income......which is an ENTIRELY different thing.

I give this example as I feel the term "living paycheck-to-paycheck" is similarly misused.  For instance, would I classify myself as living paycheck-to-paycheck?  I mean, yeah.  I'm not FI.  I'm not CoastFI.  I'm not even BaristaFIRE based on my perceived needs.  So honestly I could easily see how if someone were to give me a survey I could be forced to answer I'm "living paycheck-to-paycheck."

Now, am I REALLY paycheck-to-paycheck by the definition that people maybe originally meant it?  Probably not.  I mean, if I was fired from my job tomorrow, could I buy groceries? Of course.  If I was fired from my job tomorrow, could I manage to pay the mortgage for a bit? Sure.  Will anyone come repo my cars? Nope, they're paid off.  Am I living enough below my means that if I was fired tomorrow could I find a low paying job that would keep me from being homeless?  I definitely think so. 

But ultimately until the day I reach FI, I can't say that I'm NOT living paycheck-to-paycheck unless you give me a very specific more narrow definition.  As such, I think most surveys on this topic are basically useless.

I think in that context it's generally a "I have $xxx to get me by until payday," whereas for most people on this forum our paycheck intervals are largely irrelevant.

My paycheck intervals are definitely not irrelevant.  I have such highly structured auto deductions that creates a simulated paycheck-to-paycheck scenario.  We live on about a third of our after-tax pay, the rest is automatically deducted. So missing a check would suck, but we have a good savings account as back up. I think that's true for a lot of FI wannabes.

JLee

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2022, 10:36:03 AM »
I really, really don't like the term "living paycheck-to-paycheck"...I find it about as useful as the term "millionaire"

Prior to ~2015, the term "millionaire" always meant someone with over one million dollars in net assets.  I feel like the definition never changed, and yet suddenly you had reporters in legitimate news sources ranging from NY Times to CNN to Fox News who were using the term for someone making one million dollars per year of income......which is an ENTIRELY different thing.

I give this example as I feel the term "living paycheck-to-paycheck" is similarly misused.  For instance, would I classify myself as living paycheck-to-paycheck?  I mean, yeah.  I'm not FI.  I'm not CoastFI.  I'm not even BaristaFIRE based on my perceived needs.  So honestly I could easily see how if someone were to give me a survey I could be forced to answer I'm "living paycheck-to-paycheck."

Now, am I REALLY paycheck-to-paycheck by the definition that people maybe originally meant it?  Probably not.  I mean, if I was fired from my job tomorrow, could I buy groceries? Of course.  If I was fired from my job tomorrow, could I manage to pay the mortgage for a bit? Sure.  Will anyone come repo my cars? Nope, they're paid off.  Am I living enough below my means that if I was fired tomorrow could I find a low paying job that would keep me from being homeless?  I definitely think so. 

But ultimately until the day I reach FI, I can't say that I'm NOT living paycheck-to-paycheck unless you give me a very specific more narrow definition.  As such, I think most surveys on this topic are basically useless.

I think in that context it's generally a "I have $xxx to get me by until payday," whereas for most people on this forum our paycheck intervals are largely irrelevant.

My paycheck intervals are definitely not irrelevant.  I have such highly structured auto deductions that creates a simulated paycheck-to-paycheck scenario.  We live on about a third of our after-tax pay, the rest is automatically deducted. So missing a check would suck, but we have a good savings account as back up. I think that's true for a lot of FI wannabes.

And if your employer changed your pay to happen monthly and you restructured all your auto deductions, would your life change? ;)

charis

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2022, 10:58:51 AM »

And if your employer changed your pay to happen monthly and you restructured all your auto deductions, would your life change? ;)

Definitely not and anyone with a decent EF or back up plan is not P2P in my mind

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2022, 08:27:09 AM »
I really, really don't like the term "living paycheck-to-paycheck"...I find it about as useful as the term "millionaire"

Prior to ~2015, the term "millionaire" always meant someone with over one million dollars in net assets.  I feel like the definition never changed, and yet suddenly you had reporters in legitimate news sources ranging from NY Times to CNN to Fox News who were using the term for someone making one million dollars per year of income......which is an ENTIRELY different thing.

I give this example as I feel the term "living paycheck-to-paycheck" is similarly misused.  For instance, would I classify myself as living paycheck-to-paycheck?  I mean, yeah.  I'm not FI.  I'm not CoastFI.  I'm not even BaristaFIRE based on my perceived needs.  So honestly I could easily see how if someone were to give me a survey I could be forced to answer I'm "living paycheck-to-paycheck."

Now, am I REALLY paycheck-to-paycheck by the definition that people maybe originally meant it?  Probably not.  I mean, if I was fired from my job tomorrow, could I buy groceries? Of course.  If I was fired from my job tomorrow, could I manage to pay the mortgage for a bit? Sure.  Will anyone come repo my cars? Nope, they're paid off.  Am I living enough below my means that if I was fired tomorrow could I find a low paying job that would keep me from being homeless?  I definitely think so. 

But ultimately until the day I reach FI, I can't say that I'm NOT living paycheck-to-paycheck unless you give me a very specific more narrow definition.  As such, I think most surveys on this topic are basically useless.

I think in that context it's generally a "I have $xxx to get me by until payday," whereas for most people on this forum our paycheck intervals are largely irrelevant.

My paycheck intervals are definitely not irrelevant.  I have such highly structured auto deductions that creates a simulated paycheck-to-paycheck scenario.  We live on about a third of our after-tax pay, the rest is automatically deducted. So missing a check would suck, but we have a good savings account as back up. I think that's true for a lot of FI wannabes.
I’m in this camp.  I’m a federal employee in 2019, the government shutdown meant I didn’t get a paycheck.  It sucked.  I had to cancel all my auto deductions to savings accounts and tap my emergency fund for living expenses.  When the 536 assholes finally passed a budget I had to go and redo all my auto deductions.  It was a pain in the ass. 

lifeisshort123

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2022, 04:29:32 PM »
I personally feel like we all live paycheck-to-paycheck prior to being financially independent.  It is just a matter of degree.  I estimate I could survive somewhere between 1-3 years if I had no income coming in at all (an extremely unlikely scenario… I hope)

I do think this is one of the tensions I often have with where to put my money.  I would probably be much smarter to keep a wad of cash constantly available, but I want to see my money working harder for me.  I hope that’s not greedy, it does make me I suppose “more vulnerable” than just stashing the dollars under my mattress.

JLee

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2022, 05:31:53 PM »
I think some are missing the societally-accepted definition here.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/live%20paycheck%20to%20paycheck

Quote
Definition of live paycheck to paycheck
US
: to spend all of the money from one paycheck before receiving the next paycheck

Putting 50% of your income into savings/investments doesn't constitute "living paycheck to paycheck."

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2022, 09:39:05 AM »
I think some are missing the societally-accepted definition here.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/live%20paycheck%20to%20paycheck

Quote
Definition of live paycheck to paycheck
US
: to spend all of the money from one paycheck before receiving the next paycheck

Putting 50% of your income into savings/investments doesn't constitute "living paycheck to paycheck."

You mean, if we have no money left over after maxing out our 401(k) and 529 plans, stashing cash for a rainy day, paying down debt at an accelerated rate, and then taking care of the rest of our bills... we don't actually have underclass credibility? /s

charis

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2022, 09:57:17 AM »
I don't think anyone here is claiming to be paycheck to paycheck. I certainly wasn't

PDXTabs

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2022, 02:06:58 PM »
I think some are missing the societally-accepted definition here.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/live%20paycheck%20to%20paycheck

Quote
Definition of live paycheck to paycheck
US
: to spend all of the money from one paycheck before receiving the next paycheck

Putting 50% of your income into savings/investments doesn't constitute "living paycheck to paycheck."

But keeping in mind that it is an idiom which means "to spend all of the money from one paycheck" I think that it does leave room for people who are maxing out their 401k and HSA.

PDXTabs

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2022, 02:55:08 PM »
I think some are missing the societally-accepted definition here.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/live%20paycheck%20to%20paycheck

Quote
Definition of live paycheck to paycheck
US
: to spend all of the money from one paycheck before receiving the next paycheck

Putting 50% of your income into savings/investments doesn't constitute "living paycheck to paycheck."

But keeping in mind that it is an idiom which means "to spend all of the money from one paycheck" I think that it does leave room for people who are maxing out their 401k and HSA.
The key word is "spending" not saving. If you are spending all your paycheck on things and stuff and to pay your bills then there is nothing left over to save. I don't think saving 99% of your pay check and then saying you're living paycheck to paycheck is valid. No one who earns $250k per year is going to say they live paycheck to paycheck because they can choose not to save that much or to spend that much. I imagine most people who make $250k/year don't "need" to spend it all to live. Well except the Financial Samurai and Suze Ormand that is ;-).

Or is the keyword "money?" Because even when I worked graveyard at a convenience store I contributed to the 401k (enough to get the match), but I didn't leave those funds in cash. I spent those funds on equities and bonds, which are not money. I made basically minimum wage working less than 40 hours a week and I would have told you that I lived paycheck-to-paycheck, but I was still contributing to my 401k.

neo von retorch

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2022, 05:56:54 AM »
The meaning of the phrase isn't difficult. If you stopped getting a paycheck, would you be unable to pay your basic living expenses - housing and food?

That means you don't have liquid assets lying around as a safety net, which you could readily sell.

And you don't have a bunch of unused credit cards with high limits to keep you going (though it can be difficult or very expensive - cash advance fees - to pay housing expenses with a credit card).

If missing that next paycheck won't #*@% up your life, you're not "living paycheck-to-paycheck".

RWD

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2022, 08:48:21 AM »
If missing that next paycheck won't #*@% up your life, you're not "living paycheck-to-paycheck".
^^^  I think that sums it up pretty well

JLee

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2022, 09:01:45 AM »
If missing that next paycheck won't #*@% up your life, you're not "living paycheck-to-paycheck".
^^^  I think that sums it up pretty well

Yup. "Damn, my paycheck is late so I need to make a transfer" vs "Damn, my paycheck is late so I can't make rent or buy food."

PDXTabs

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2022, 09:49:49 AM »
If missing that next paycheck won't #*@% up your life, you're not "living paycheck-to-paycheck".
^^^  I think that sums it up pretty well

Yup. "Damn, my paycheck is late so I need to make a transfer" vs "Damn, my paycheck is late so I can't make rent or buy food."

Indeed, but here is the actual Fed question and data: https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2019-economic-well-being-of-us-households-in-2018-dealing-with-unexpected-expenses.htm

"Damn I had to sell one of my 1,000 ounces of gold" counts because you couldn't pay your rent with "cash or its equivalents" and instead you had to "sell something."

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2022, 12:07:04 PM »
The appendix of the report has the full question: 

Quote
EF3

Suppose that you have an emergency expense that costs $400. Based on your current financial situation, how would you pay for this expense?

Suppress default instructions, instead show: If you would use more than one method to cover this expense, please select all that apply.

a. Put it on my credit card and pay it off in full at the next statement
b. Put it on my credit card and pay it off over time
c. With the money currently in my checking/savings account or with cash
d. Using money from a bank loan or line of credit
e. By borrowing from a friend or family member
f. Using a payday loan, deposit advance, or overdraft
g. By selling something
h. I wouldn't be able to pay for the expense right now

If they are using A and C then I'd be part of the cool kids club that can cover an unexpected expense. If they only use the results from C then I would register as a poor millennial that is barely hanging on. My monthly expenses are mostly predictable so I don't bother keeping a significant buffer of cash laying around.

Although, I make under 250k/yr so maybe I'm already a poor millennial and didn't know it - I'm always the last to know.

lifeisshort123

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2022, 05:56:11 PM »
A is the answer I would select.

But, I could also use C if I had to.

I’m not sure why I would want to though. 

TempusFugit

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2022, 12:58:54 PM »
Whenever I read an article about how people are living on the edge financially and they start listing how much people are paying on their mortgages or their car payments I sort of chuckle.  I find it somewhat amusing because I think that due to human nature it will always be true.  No matter how much money people make, they will find a way to spend as much as they can to get the nicest, biggest home or car that they can afford.  If they can make the payments, they think that means they can 'afford' it.  If they can afford it, they deserve to have it. 

I think of it as an example of what I call The Goldish Theory:  a goldfish will grow to the largest size that the environment will accommodate. Bigger bowl, bigger fish.   I think it applies in many areas of human endeavor.  I'm generalizing, of course.

How much administrative overhead does your organization have?  Well, how many people do they pay to do administrative work?  Those people find a way to increase the thing that they get paid to do.   

How many hours a day does it take to do a job?  How many hours a day are you paid to do it?  Whatever the job, it's gonna take the whole amount of time that was allocated for it. 

By the same token, how much is someone going to spend on a house or a car?  The absolute most that their income will allow.  By definition that puts them in a financially tenuous position.  It's not because housing or automobiles have become so expensive, it's because people are choosing to spend every available nickel to buy them.  It creates a feedback loop, of course, making those things more expensive because people are willing to pay. 

None of this is new.  Thomas Jefferson was a notorious spendthrift and amassed huge debts building Monticello.

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2022, 08:17:51 AM »
Whenever I read an article about how people are living on the edge financially and they start listing how much people are paying on their mortgages or their car payments I sort of chuckle.  I find it somewhat amusing because I think that due to human nature it will always be true.  No matter how much money people make, they will find a way to spend as much as they can to get the nicest, biggest home or car that they can afford.  If they can make the payments, they think that means they can 'afford' it.  If they can afford it, they deserve to have it. 

I think of it as an example of what I call The Goldish Theory:  a goldfish will grow to the largest size that the environment will accommodate. Bigger bowl, bigger fish.   I think it applies in many areas of human endeavor.  I'm generalizing, of course.

How much administrative overhead does your organization have?  Well, how many people do they pay to do administrative work?  Those people find a way to increase the thing that they get paid to do.   

How many hours a day does it take to do a job?  How many hours a day are you paid to do it?  Whatever the job, it's gonna take the whole amount of time that was allocated for it. 

By the same token, how much is someone going to spend on a house or a car?  The absolute most that their income will allow.  By definition that puts them in a financially tenuous position.  It's not because housing or automobiles have become so expensive, it's because people are choosing to spend every available nickel to buy them.  It creates a feedback loop, of course, making those things more expensive because people are willing to pay. 

None of this is new.  Thomas Jefferson was a notorious spendthrift and amassed huge debts building Monticello.

We are all surrounded by opportunities to spend money. Twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week we are exposed to a constant stream of ads, and even for people who limit their connectivity to pop culture and electronic media there are means by which advertisers can attempt to influence them. I say "attempt" because just because an ad is present nothing forces us to read it or take it seriously. Yet the same ads tend to target a wide range of people and socioeconomic classes.

Consider a billboard that promotes, say, a luxury vehicle retailing for USD$100k: some kind of luxury full-size SUV or crossover. The ad is visible to everyone who walks by: the homeless person panhandling for change on the median, the aspiring professional athlete jogging through a morning workout, the harried minimum-wage earner scuttling across the crosswalk, the student disembarking from a public bus, the FIREd Mustachian pedaling by in the bicycle lane, the office worker commuting in a small hatchback, the entrepreneur on his or her way to the work site, and the high-income executive commuting in a similar luxury vehicle. Everyone can see the ad. But people respond to it differently.

At the moment the ad is viewed, only the Mustachian, the executive, and possibly the entrepreneur have the assets to purchase the vehicle. The Mustachian sees and dismisses the ad, and would laugh himself or herself incontinent at the suggestion that such a vehicle would be an effective use of the 'stache, because spending a year backpacking through the Andes or acquiring an investment property would be more satisfying. The entrepreneur might buy the luxury car, if it's time to buy a vehicle and if such a vehicle suits the business. Realtors, lawyers, and people whose customers see their cars often notice that the customers associate the price of a person's vehicle with the efficacy of the services they offer. But if the business is appliance repair or a landscaping company, then unless the business is a raging success and generating enough cash flow for the luxury car to be an afterthought, the entrepreneur isn't going to spring for a fancy car either. The executive might, if circumstances justify a new car. The advertisers know this, and they don't expect every ad to generate a sale. Poverty itself insulates against truly horrific spending, because although anybody might fantasize about chartering a super-yacht or flying around in a private jet, people tend not to actually do it. But advertisers also know that something interesting happens when people who *can't* afford a luxury item are exposed to advertising: unless they consciously do otherwise, they tend to absorb the idea that the luxury items are normal, commonplace, and appropriate for them "when they get some money". They don't over-consume, but it's due solely to lack of resources. When their resources change suddenly, the barrier to consumption disappears.

Eventually, people often do receive a sudden temporary change in income or wealth. The professional athlete gets called up to the major league. The student graduates and starts working in STEM. The office worker receives a bonus, and the Mustachian receives an unexpected inheritance, or the minimum wage earner wins a seven-figure jackpot in the lottery. For many, the calculations change. People tend to perceive the increase in wealth as an increase in income, and the instinctive balancing they do between income and outflow adjusts to compensate. The calculations change. People who avoided high ticket items because they couldn't afford it suddenly feel as though they *can* afford it. So they "splurge". The only one immune to the splurge urge is the Mustachian, who rightly recognizes the sudden influx of wealth as a change in *net worth*, not a change in *income*. Whereas a USD$10,000 windfall is used by a Mustachian to build up a 'stache, clear debt, or invest, most people use the windfall to consume. That is why sudden wealth tends to be ephemeral, and why consumption tends to increase proportionately with income unless the earner steadfastly insists upon doing otherwise.

I've taught my niece that consumption is a choice. If she pays more on her mortgage, for example, less is available for other activities such as retirement.

TempusFugit

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2022, 11:32:55 AM »
Absolutely advertising and pop culture in general all feed into the innate ‘need’ for humans to display status and to reach for things that we think / hope will maybe bring us fulfillment.  Even if you never saw an ad - in a fantasy world, of course - the exposure to what other people are buying will be a source of psychological pressure to do the same.  Advertising is that pressure on steroids because it generally presents the people in the ads as being happy and fulfilled as they drive their BMW or whatever.  In real life we at least can see that the drivers in all those fancy cars don’t actually look and prettier or happier than the rest of us. 

My larger point however is that people across the income spectrum generally tend to spend as much as they make and that this habit tends to always have people on the edge of financial trouble regardless of the external economic conditions. 

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2022, 11:39:21 AM »
Absolutely advertising and pop culture in general all feed into the innate ‘need’ for humans to display status and to reach for things that we think / hope will maybe bring us fulfillment.  Even if you never saw an ad - in a fantasy world, of course - the exposure to what other people are buying will be a source of psychological pressure to do the same.  Advertising is that pressure on steroids because it generally presents the people in the ads as being happy and fulfilled as they drive their BMW or whatever.  In real life we at least can see that the drivers in all those fancy cars don’t actually look and prettier or happier than the rest of us. 

My larger point however is that people across the income spectrum generally tend to spend as much as they make and that this habit tends to always have people on the edge of financial trouble regardless of the external economic conditions.

Exactly: most people spend what they can, when they can, because they can. Their consumption increases with their capacity, right up to the point where the capacity itself is threatened. It's a pop culture thing that has been around since the beginning of recorded history. There have only been a few communities or sub-communities that have ever done otherwise. There have been some religious communities and collectives that eschew consumption (and personal property). There was also a small group of generationally wealthy "old money" people, and of course there's us.

Old money people, and FIREd Mustachians, limit their spending to the income sustainably generated by their invested wealth. They regard the 'stache as a goose that periodically lays a golden egg. You don't kill or starve the goose just to get a golden egg a bit faster. In fact, things that threaten the golden goose (gambling, debt, vice, etc.) tend to be taboo. We are in the extreme minority and most pop culture writers regard us with contempt for this reason.

FIRE Pun

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Re: One-Third of Americans Making $250k Live Paycheck-to-Paycheck
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2022, 11:00:57 AM »

 It's a pop culture thing that has been around since the beginning of recorded history.

I think it's deeper than pop culture - or perhaps more accurately, that pop culture in any era is the surface expression of some really fundamental drives.  We humans act more like animals than we like to admit.  Animal populations will generally consume available resources until they are no longer available, limited by the energy expenditure and risk required to get those resources.  Spending money is a negligible energy expenditure and doesn't register as a risk at all to most people, but accruing social status is a valuable goal.  There are also lots of issues wrapped up in short term vs. long term thinking, as short term thinking is what keeps you alive until tomorrow and therefore should instinctively always be the priority.  Finally, the more abstracted from your physical environment a resource is the harder it is to instinctively understand its value; a big nice home is easy, a pile of money less so, and an agreement for someone to pay you back extra if you let them have some of your work now (i.e. stocks) is really abstract.  The tendency toward paycheck to paycheck spending at any income level seems perfectly natural given that the idea of not working but still living is a relatively recent development.

Bringing this back to pop culture, I think this has a lot to do with the popularity of apocalyptic media (zombies, world wars, alien invasion, environmental collapse, etc.)  If civilization is going to be wiped out any day, paycheck to paycheck spending now is the smart play, and in the resulting post-apocalyptic world short term thinking would be highly adaptive.  There's something ironically comforting about reverting to a world where your instincts actually make sense, even if it's terrible.