Author Topic: OMY for clown car  (Read 27803 times)

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2016, 09:28:38 AM »
Sounds like status seeking behavior, the car is not a form of transportation in that case, its a "lifestyle" proclamation to the rest of the world. He wants everyone around him to recognize that he has made it to a point in his life where he can blow cash out his tailpipe if he wants to.

I think thats what the french call nuveaux riche

If you are referring to "New Money" vs "Old Money" this doesnt really apply. This guy has apparently worked for everything he has and is aware that he will need(maybe want) to work another year in order to justify such an expensive automobile. To me, that's not "New Money" per se.

To me, "New Money" is the rapper, football player, startup CEO, lottery winner and such, who gets a boatload of money rather quickly and blows it on stupid shit trying to impress people who he shouldn't be worried about.

This guy, on the other hand, is a person I would rather have a conversation with a figure out how he did it. Good financial role model IMHO.

"New Money" is someone who acquired their wealth while working(or working it ;), within their lifetime. Not inherited. It's money made within one generation.  It doesn't mean they spent it all or are frivolous with it. It just was not inherited money. The Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, the queen of England etc. are old money. Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Warren Buffet, etc. are new money.

It's actually not just that they acquired their own wealth. Plenty of old money families do require their children to prove themselves competent before they inherit. Some actually live in a cash-poor way to teach their kids economy, or teach their kids that they might have rich parents, but they personally have bugger-all. Sometimes the result is people who are born affluent, who are taught that they have to "do something", and who then go on to get theirs. Some make a fortune before inheriting one, and end up richer than their parents even before they inherit. But they aren't actually changing their social class by doing this. They still have the tastes, preferences, and social contacts they got from growing up around other old families. They also have the behavior patterns: the way they treat other people, the expectations they have of them, and the obligations that they have to others.

A "new money" person gains enough wealth to significantly change his or her social class. Such a person is a bit of a social transplant, and sometimes makes mistakes with money due to lack of experience. Also, the stereotype is that new money people aren't content to spend money, and are psychologically compelled to waste it or spend it ostentatiously.

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2016, 10:18:20 AM »
You may wish to read the excellent "Class" by Paul Fussell.  It reviews the confusion since the mid 20th century between net worth and social status.  In the old days, it was very straightforward if one had money into which social class one belonged.  Rich people were upper class in the Europeans sense: extremely well-mannered, multi-generational families many of whom potentially never had "real jobs" but collected and spent vast sums of, say, rent or controlled large companies or railroads, means of production.

Since the 1960s or so in America it has been more common to become a multi-millionaire rapidly via athletics, tech economy, porn sites, etc.  Many of these people have no particular breed, education, social graces, or taste.  Some don't even have servants.  They drive their own cars and sometimes put large chrome wheels on them. They tend toward garish casino-style homes with pools and fountains. They are not necessarily interested nor welcome at the local country club nor the symphony benefit vertical claret tasting.

Back to the subject at hand, Mr. Bentley is not rich or upper class.  He takes out his own garbage cans. He is a degreed professional worker bee in a large company with almost 25 years.  He has been frugal with his spending but also has built significant SFH real estate equity and has a 7 figure company pension lump sum coming his way.  His retirement 'stache is likely no different than any other moderately well compensated professional who works hard and lives well within his means - physician, dentist, banker, small business owner.    But will he look right in a Bentley Flying Spur?

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2016, 11:03:14 AM »
You may wish to read the excellent "Class" by Paul Fussell.  It reviews the confusion since the mid 20th century between net worth and social status.  In the old days, it was very straightforward if one had money into which social class one belonged.  Rich people were upper class in the Europeans sense: extremely well-mannered, multi-generational families many of whom potentially never had "real jobs" but collected and spent vast sums of, say, rent or controlled large companies or railroads, means of production.

Since the 1960s or so in America it has been more common to become a multi-millionaire rapidly via athletics, tech economy, porn sites, etc.  Many of these people have no particular breed, education, social graces, or taste.  Some don't even have servants.  They drive their own cars and sometimes put large chrome wheels on them. They tend toward garish casino-style homes with pools and fountains. They are not necessarily interested nor welcome at the local country club nor the symphony benefit vertical claret tasting.

Back to the subject at hand, Mr. Bentley is not rich or upper class.  He takes out his own garbage cans. He is a degreed professional worker bee in a large company with almost 25 years.  He has been frugal with his spending but also has built significant SFH real estate equity and has a 7 figure company pension lump sum coming his way.  His retirement 'stache is likely no different than any other moderately well compensated professional who works hard and lives well within his means - physician, dentist, banker, small business owner.    But will he look right in a Bentley Flying Spur?

I've read Fussell's book, and like most academics he gets a few things right but misses the point almost completely. Class and money are related but neither determines the other. Lord Byron, flat broke and living solely on the proceeds of his writing, was still a member of the titled nobility. In fact, a lot of old money families are not that rich.

You have some unusual beliefs about how upper class people used to behave, or still do behave. It's kind of na´ve. The nasty part of human nature isn't confined to the unwashed proletariat though.

One group you mentioned was the European old money elite. I assure you that HRH QEII does in fact drive her own vehicle when it suits her, and she served as a military driver in WWII. She's also heavily into taste and social graces. You could regard her as one end of a spectrum of behavior that encompasses a wide range of traits and standards known as upper class. There's also a subset of that same elite clique known as "Eurotrash": inbred, drug-addicted brats who have no role in any community and who act simultaneously entitled and expendable because they truly are. In between, there's a huge spectrum of behavior, any of which might be called "upper class". But one recurring theme is that you have to have a role in the world. It's not necessarily tied up with earning money, working for pay, or employing other people.

The notion that old money somehow possesses social graces or superior taste can probably be corrected with a dose of Edith Wharton, Wilmot (2nd Earl of Rochester), and such. If you'd like a more contemporary look at American inherited wealth, check out the documentary "Born Rich". You'll notice that the wealthy people in the documentary have interests. Real jobs, as it were, although they don't necessarily have to be profitable. Other people who are less wealthy share those interests, but don't get snubbed or looked down on simply because they weren't born into wealth. The shared interest is what does it. That's why Mr. Bentley is going to be OK.

Mr. Bentley is going to do just fine. If he joins an owner's club, at least some of the other Bentley owners are going to be wealthier and possibly from old money. So what? They're not going to beat him up or take his lunch money simply because his daddy wasn't rich enough. Why? Because they're there for the cars. Shared enjoyment in a mutual interest can sometimes lead to friendship, such that he might get to talking or having coffee with other retirees once in a while. He might end up rubbing shoulders with someone a lot richer. Or a lot poorer, if he runs across someone who overindulges financially. But it's not as though he's using the Bentley to con people out of money or pass himself off as something he's not. He'll be a retired guy with a hobby he loves. Who cares how he looks while driving? Of course he's going to drive his own car. That was the entire point of getting it.

All this information about Mr. Bentley being a "degreed professional worker bee" and "large company" is brand new information to everybody here. You've clearly got a lot of contempt for him, but I don't think his experience is going to be as unpleasant as you'd like. I do think you'll get a huge kick out of Edith Wharton and the other authors I recommended.

MilesTeg

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2016, 12:27:53 PM »
If you want a good understanding of "new" vs "old" money, read 'The Great Gatsby'.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2016, 12:39:43 PM »
If you want a good understanding of "new" vs "old" money, read 'The Great Gatsby'.

Also good reading. I recommended Wharton because she was actually from that group of people and the perspective she creates really was "from the inside" instead of from the outside looking in.

honeybbq

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2016, 12:42:54 PM »


A colleague of mine is in his mid fifties and ready to retire early. He has saved about $5MM and has two nearly paid for homes.
What do you reckon?

If I had 5MM and that's what I wanted to do- I'd do it.

honeybbq

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2016, 12:44:19 PM »
Good input.

My issues are -

1) if he has only $5MM saved, he will have to live on say 3.5% of that as he is retiring early.  $175K/yr is maybe $130K/yr after tax.  I  think we all probably know families spending $130K per year and they are not purchasing $150,000 vehicles to drive. 



Yep, most people who buy 130k cars don't earn even 100k!

Metric Mouse

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2016, 07:23:21 AM »
He'll be a retired guy with a hobby he loves. Who cares how he looks while driving? Of course he's going to drive his own car. That was the entire point of getting it.

All this information about Mr. Bentley being a "degreed professional worker bee" and "large company" is brand new information to everybody here. You've clearly got a lot of contempt for him, but I don't think his experience is going to be as unpleasant as you'd like.

Well said. Some people just can't be happy for others who are happy.

Metric Mouse

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2016, 07:26:35 AM »
Regarding damage to other people . . . the fuel economy of 2016 Bentley cars ranges from 13 - 19 combined mpg.  (https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Bentley2016.shtml)

Fair point. I would never have guessed Bently's got worse gas mileage than some pickup trucks. And that's even with cheating on their emissions testing.

SeaEhm

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2016, 07:49:49 PM »
Back to the subject at hand, Mr. Bentley is not rich or upper class.  He takes out his own garbage cans. He is a degreed professional worker bee in a large company with almost 25 years.  He has been frugal with his spending but also has built significant SFH real estate equity and has a 7 figure company pension lump sum coming his way.  His retirement 'stache is likely no different than any other moderately well compensated professional who works hard and lives well within his means - physician, dentist, banker, small business owner.    But will he look right in a Bentley Flying Spur?

Will he look right driving a Bentley?  Who do you think drives Bentleys?


Also, as I said earlier, he is working another year to pay for the car, therefore, making himself even more financially well off. 

Buying the Bentley is actually a good idea for him financially speaking because it postpones his retirement 1 year while adding $100k net worth (assuming $50k spending)

GuitarStv

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2016, 06:23:10 AM »
Back to the subject at hand, Mr. Bentley is not rich or upper class.  He takes out his own garbage cans. He is a degreed professional worker bee in a large company with almost 25 years.  He has been frugal with his spending but also has built significant SFH real estate equity and has a 7 figure company pension lump sum coming his way.  His retirement 'stache is likely no different than any other moderately well compensated professional who works hard and lives well within his means - physician, dentist, banker, small business owner.    But will he look right in a Bentley Flying Spur?

Will he look right driving a Bentley?  Who do you think drives Bentleys?


Also, as I said earlier, he is working another year to pay for the car, therefore, making himself even more financially well off. 

Buying the Bentley is actually a good idea for him financially speaking because it postpones his retirement 1 year while adding $100k net worth (assuming $50k spending)

Working until death is the best idea, financially.  This website isn't really about doing the best thing financially . . . it's about optimizing your life to achieve maximum happiness.  The argument against working to buy the car is that spending a year of your limited life to acquire a new thing will probably not result in greater happiness than if you spent that year with friends and family doing things that you enjoy.

Cycling Stache

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2016, 07:48:56 AM »
Buying the Bentley is actually a good idea for him financially speaking because it postpones his retirement 1 year while adding $100k net worth (assuming $50k spending)

Working until death is the best idea, financially.  This website isn't really about doing the best thing financially . . . it's about optimizing your life to achieve maximum happiness.  The argument against working to buy the car is that spending a year of your limited life to acquire a new thing will probably not result in greater happiness than if you spent that year with friends and family doing things that you enjoy.

Actually, I sadly understand the logic of SeaEhm's point.  I worked at a large law firm making a big salary, and around year 5 I was totally burned out.  I then bought a BMW M5 (used, but low miles) as an effort to see if I would enjoy spending the money I was making, which seemed to be the only reward for an otherwise miserable job.  I really did enjoy it and ended up sticking it out for 2 more years, significantly increasing my net worth.

To be clear, I would have been much better off saving the money and using it to retire earlier, but at the time, it was the car that made me feel like I could stick it out for a couple more years when I was otherwise ready to quit, the result of which was a significant increase in my net worth.  So to the extent that the guy thinks that it's totally worth working for another year to buy the car (even if he realizes he's mistaken in retrospect), he will benefit financially. 

While I wouldn't buy a car like that again, it doesn't bother me as much that someone wants to work a little longer at the end to splurge on something they think they'll enjoy when they've got everything else taken care of.  I've sort of been thinking the same thing about buying a fancier race bike, although I rationalize it on the ground that I've already put 25,000 miles on the bike I bought 6 years ago, so I'm likely to get some enjoyment out of the splurge item.  Still, I imagine sticking around an extra month at the end with the idea that I'm doing it to buy the bike, so even if it's unnecessary, it's a luxury that I feel like I've knowingly purchased with an extra month of work. 

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2016, 09:56:13 AM »
It's interesting to consider the possibilities for 1-2 years of "free salary" once the savings is all dialed in.  Bikes, cars, vacations, houses, gambling, massages, designer drugs, whatever.  Everyone will make a different choice based on their priorities. People who hate their job will get out as early as they can.  Others who like their work and can't think of many better options, will continue working and saving and possibly even spend more while working.  I know people who are reluctant to retire simply because the *fringe benefits* they get from working are hard to put aside (housing, transportation, dining, etc).  For an extreme example, imagine a corp exec who has access to private jet travel for business but also family vacations.  Once she retires, life gets  a little harder.  I have a friend who eats dinner at Michelin-star restaurants several times a month on his corp card. He brings his wife every time. They have to make small talk with some corporate person to justify the expense, but they glug a lot of fine wine and have fun.  They won't be doing this as much in retirement.

SeaEhm

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2016, 06:06:02 PM »

Working until death is the best idea, financially.  This website isn't really about doing the best thing financially . . . it's about optimizing your life to achieve maximum happiness. 
'

And the guy will achieve perceived maximum happiness from working one more year and driving a bentley.

So...

Rufus.T.Firefly

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2016, 06:14:01 PM »
I'm just posting to hate on the Bentley. OMY for a Bentley!!!? Really?!

I can think about about 10 cars I would pick over a Bentley for that kind of money.

SeaEhm

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2016, 07:30:25 PM »
I would have 0 regrets.




GuitarStv

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2016, 06:32:36 AM »

Working until death is the best idea, financially.  This website isn't really about doing the best thing financially . . . it's about optimizing your life to achieve maximum happiness. 
'

And the guy will achieve perceived maximum happiness from working one more year and driving a bentley.

So...

That's only true if you believe that owning things is the path to happiness.  While commonly assumed, when you take the time to analyze that line of thought it's really hard to defend as being true.

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #67 on: September 15, 2016, 07:29:26 AM »
This thread is a perfect example. OP and others are trying to shame the person for making a purchase they don't agree with and not out of any legitimate concern for the person's financial status.

At leas IMO, the main issue is whether this is Bentley purchase will give the optimum, maximum happiness per dollar. It's a car. Four wheels, engine, seats etc. It drives your ass places. Except it costs a crapton more for some obscure reasons. As some mentioned he'll probably be bored of it very shortly. Then there is another fancy luxury car that seems better. This is how most of the car industry operate.

For most sane people the amount of fun, life-changing awesome experiences (or whatever else) you could do for $150,000 so far overshadow the slight smug satisfaction you get from driving on the same road to the same places, except it's in a Bentley instead of a Toyota, that it's just absurd. If the only way to experience driving an automobile was $150,000 then maybe it'd make sense. But when you can do 99% of the same thing (drive from A to B), except the seats aren't hand-sewn from cows decedent from Luis XIV's personal stock it's just silly. If a person doesn't have anything better to spend that kind of money on they are truly lacking in imagination!

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #68 on: September 15, 2016, 09:02:58 AM »
So let's say you guys are right. 6 months after buying the car, he decides "this sucks, I'm not happier with this thing."  So what?  He paid cash for it, he sells it on, and he loses, say, 20%. He's a rich dude, he can afford the hit. It's not the end of the world. And he fulfilled a dream he decided was no longer a dream. This isn't a catastrophe. He isn't putting his financial well being and family's health at risk. His total downside is "well, gee, I didn't like that as much as I thought I did, I'll sell it."

So the fuck what? 

GuitarStv

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #69 on: September 15, 2016, 09:12:29 AM »
So let's say you guys are right. 6 months after buying the car, he decides "this sucks, I'm not happier with this thing."  So what?  He paid cash for it, he sells it on, and he loses, say, 20%. He's a rich dude, he can afford the hit. It's not the end of the world. And he fulfilled a dream he decided was no longer a dream. This isn't a catastrophe. He isn't putting his financial well being and family's health at risk. His total downside is "well, gee, I didn't like that as much as I thought I did, I'll sell it."

So the fuck what?

So he wasted money, and a significant chunk of his life.  He helped to fuel demand for a useless environmentally damaging product.  All this for no benefit of any kind.

Scandium

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2016, 09:17:48 AM »
So let's say you guys are right. 6 months after buying the car, he decides "this sucks, I'm not happier with this thing."  So what?  He paid cash for it, he sells it on, and he loses, say, 20%. He's a rich dude, he can afford the hit. It's not the end of the world. And he fulfilled a dream he decided was no longer a dream. This isn't a catastrophe. He isn't putting his financial well being and family's health at risk. His total downside is "well, gee, I didn't like that as much as I thought I did, I'll sell it."

So the fuck what?
It's not a fuck what. Not it's not a catastrophe. It don't matter. But if you take 3 seconds to think about it, spending the cost of a house in many parts of the country on an unreliable automobile is so absurdly stupid. Waste of money is waste of money, even if the wastee is rich.

Me wasting $5 on a fancy cupcake is no big deal. But I realize it's underwhelming and didn't actually enjoy it as much as I thought I would. So it's stupid and I don't do that.

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Chris22

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2016, 09:21:49 AM »
So let's say you guys are right. 6 months after buying the car, he decides "this sucks, I'm not happier with this thing."  So what?  He paid cash for it, he sells it on, and he loses, say, 20%. He's a rich dude, he can afford the hit. It's not the end of the world. And he fulfilled a dream he decided was no longer a dream. This isn't a catastrophe. He isn't putting his financial well being and family's health at risk. His total downside is "well, gee, I didn't like that as much as I thought I did, I'll sell it."

So the fuck what?

So he wasted money, and a significant chunk of his life.  He helped to fuel demand for a useless environmentally damaging product.  All this for no benefit of any kind.

Oh stop it with the environmentally damaging bit. The incremental waste coming from someone using a Bentley recreationally (i.e. Low miles) instead of a Corolla is immaterial.  It's a rounding error. It doesn't matter.

With regards to the rest, I disagree. Working towards something that you purchase is a sense of fulfillment that is not dependant on the item purchased being fulfilling. Even if the man decides later that he doesn't love the car, I can almost guarantee he doesn't regret setting a goal, working to fulfill it, and then achieving that goal.

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #72 on: September 15, 2016, 09:24:17 AM »
So let's say you guys are right. 6 months after buying the car, he decides "this sucks, I'm not happier with this thing."  So what?  He paid cash for it, he sells it on, and he loses, say, 20%. He's a rich dude, he can afford the hit. It's not the end of the world. And he fulfilled a dream he decided was no longer a dream. This isn't a catastrophe. He isn't putting his financial well being and family's health at risk. His total downside is "well, gee, I didn't like that as much as I thought I did, I'll sell it."

So the fuck what?
It's not a fuck what. Not it's not a catastrophe. It don't matter. But if you take 3 seconds to think about it, spending the cost of a house in many parts of the country on an unreliable automobile is so absurdly stupid. Waste of money is waste of money, even if the wastee is rich.

Me wasting $5 on a fancy cupcake is no big deal. But I realize it's underwhelming and didn't actually enjoy it as much as I thought I would. So it's stupid and I don't do that.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

That's an opinion, which you are welcome to, but you are not welcome to assert it as a fact. A Bentley is not my cup of tea, but there are plenty of reasons why someone may want to own something that is one of the top few examples of a car in terms of craftsmanship, performance, etc.

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #73 on: September 15, 2016, 09:31:53 AM »
So let's say you guys are right. 6 months after buying the car, he decides "this sucks, I'm not happier with this thing."  So what?  He paid cash for it, he sells it on, and he loses, say, 20%. He's a rich dude, he can afford the hit. It's not the end of the world. And he fulfilled a dream he decided was no longer a dream. This isn't a catastrophe. He isn't putting his financial well being and family's health at risk. His total downside is "well, gee, I didn't like that as much as I thought I did, I'll sell it."

So the fuck what?
It's not a fuck what. Not it's not a catastrophe. It don't matter. But if you take 3 seconds to think about it, spending the cost of a house in many parts of the country on an unreliable automobile is so absurdly stupid. Waste of money is waste of money, even if the wastee is rich.

Me wasting $5 on a fancy cupcake is no big deal. But I realize it's underwhelming and didn't actually enjoy it as much as I thought I would. So it's stupid and I don't do that.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

That's an opinion, which you are welcome to, but you are not welcome to assert it as a fact. A Bentley is not my cup of tea, but there are plenty of reasons why someone may want to own something that is one of the top few examples of a car in terms of craftsmanship, performance, etc.
Perhaps, but science show that those reasons are wrong. MMM has referenced this several times, and is much of the point of the anti-consumption focus: buying shit doesn't make you happy. Even though almost everyone belive it will. I still do sometimes.

So it doesn't matter whether someone can afford it, or it's what they want or whatever. Buying stuff will not make the person happier, at best for a short time before they have to buy more. That's not opinion. If the same amount of money can get the person more happiness then it's stupid to go with the less optimum approach. That's just common sense.

GuitarStv

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #74 on: September 15, 2016, 09:41:07 AM »
So let's say you guys are right. 6 months after buying the car, he decides "this sucks, I'm not happier with this thing."  So what?  He paid cash for it, he sells it on, and he loses, say, 20%. He's a rich dude, he can afford the hit. It's not the end of the world. And he fulfilled a dream he decided was no longer a dream. This isn't a catastrophe. He isn't putting his financial well being and family's health at risk. His total downside is "well, gee, I didn't like that as much as I thought I did, I'll sell it."

So the fuck what?
It's not a fuck what. Not it's not a catastrophe. It don't matter. But if you take 3 seconds to think about it, spending the cost of a house in many parts of the country on an unreliable automobile is so absurdly stupid. Waste of money is waste of money, even if the wastee is rich.

Me wasting $5 on a fancy cupcake is no big deal. But I realize it's underwhelming and didn't actually enjoy it as much as I thought I would. So it's stupid and I don't do that.

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That's an opinion, which you are welcome to, but you are not welcome to assert it as a fact. A Bentley is not my cup of tea, but there are plenty of reasons why someone may want to own something that is one of the top few examples of a car in terms of craftsmanship, performance, etc.
Perhaps, but science show that those reasons are wrong. MMM has referenced this several times, and is much of the point of the anti-consumption focus: buying shit doesn't make you happy. Even though almost everyone belive it will. I still do sometimes.

So it doesn't matter whether someone can afford it, or it's what they want or whatever. Buying stuff will not make the person happier, at best for a short time before they have to buy more. That's not opinion. If the same amount of money can get the person more happiness then it's stupid to go with the less optimum approach. That's just common sense.

The same conclusion that stuff doesn't bring happiness has been reached many times.  From Epicurus (building on the ideas of Socrates) to the Stoics of ancient Greece, to the teachings of Buddha, to Taoist philosophy, to literature like Thoreau's Walden, supported by modern psychological observation . . .  it keeps coming up any time that people think long and hard on how best to achieve happiness.

GuitarStv

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2016, 09:50:50 AM »
So let's say you guys are right. 6 months after buying the car, he decides "this sucks, I'm not happier with this thing."  So what?  He paid cash for it, he sells it on, and he loses, say, 20%. He's a rich dude, he can afford the hit. It's not the end of the world. And he fulfilled a dream he decided was no longer a dream. This isn't a catastrophe. He isn't putting his financial well being and family's health at risk. His total downside is "well, gee, I didn't like that as much as I thought I did, I'll sell it."

So the fuck what?

So he wasted money, and a significant chunk of his life.  He helped to fuel demand for a useless environmentally damaging product.  All this for no benefit of any kind.

Oh stop it with the environmentally damaging bit. The incremental waste coming from someone using a Bentley recreationally (i.e. Low miles) instead of a Corolla is immaterial.  It's a rounding error. It doesn't matter.


The problem with this reasoning is that you can use it to justify away any action.  You could pour some oil into the creek behind your house (it's just a little oil, who cares?).  You can throw a bag of garbage out of your car as you're speeding along (one bag is so little, who cares?).  As thousands upon thousands of people cause these rounding errors everything gets noticeably worse for everyone.  Small actions matter.

That's setting aside the fact that you're claiming that after buying this vehicle the guy isn't going to use it very much - which if true begs the question, why buy it at all then?, and if false puts to lie your claims that there is little difference between a significantly more fuel efficient car.



With regards to the rest, I disagree. Working towards something that you purchase is a sense of fulfillment that is not dependant on the item purchased being fulfilling. Even if the man decides later that he doesn't love the car, I can almost guarantee he doesn't regret setting a goal, working to fulfill it, and then achieving that goal.

I agree with the first half of this.  Working towards something is quite fulfilling.  If the sense of fulfillment isn't dependent on buying stuff and we know that stuff doesn't bring lasting happiness then why not skip out the middle man and work towards things that do?

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2016, 10:13:31 AM »
There's a good chance the Bentley guy is going to get maximum satisfaction for his dollar. It's something he's wanted for a very long time, so there's most likely more to his desire than conspicuous consumption. Caring for and driving that vehicle might, for him, be a delight to all his senses and something that puts comfort and peace in his heart. But supposing for the moment that the naysayers are right and he loses interest in the car because some other shiny thing crosses his path, it's still not the end of the world.

This fellow sounds like a generally frugal person in most respects of his life. He's not going to become suddenly stupid now. There's no reason he won't do his best to make sure he gets a good deal. If he buys the vehicle used, does his own work the way a lot of car people on this forum do, keeps it in good working order, and decides in a few months that he's not really feeling it, he can sell it and get the vast majority of his OMY money back. It wouldn't be as easy as selling a more liquid asset such as VTSAX shares, but his decision is still mostly reversible except to the extent he won't get that year back. The year itself isn't going to be that big of a loss, because he's going to be full of optimism and making the sacrifice willingly for something that he really, truly wants.

There are plenty of other indulgences just as expensive, such as travel or education, that cannot be liquidated should the spender wish to do so. If he'd decided to do OMY in order to take a two-month-long round-the-world trip for himself and his immediate family, or if he decided to put himself through an expensive underwater basket-weaving degree because it's what he always wanted, that's not an expense that can be cashed out afterwards. He's doing the OMY first, paying cash, and not signing up for an ongoing financial expense that's going to pinch him or his family in any way.

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2016, 10:24:00 AM »
So let's say you guys are right. 6 months after buying the car, he decides "this sucks, I'm not happier with this thing."  So what?  He paid cash for it, he sells it on, and he loses, say, 20%. He's a rich dude, he can afford the hit. It's not the end of the world. And he fulfilled a dream he decided was no longer a dream. This isn't a catastrophe. He isn't putting his financial well being and family's health at risk. His total downside is "well, gee, I didn't like that as much as I thought I did, I'll sell it."

So the fuck what?
It's not a fuck what. Not it's not a catastrophe. It don't matter. But if you take 3 seconds to think about it, spending the cost of a house in many parts of the country on an unreliable automobile is so absurdly stupid. Waste of money is waste of money, even if the wastee is rich.

Me wasting $5 on a fancy cupcake is no big deal. But I realize it's underwhelming and didn't actually enjoy it as much as I thought I would. So it's stupid and I don't do that.

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That's an opinion, which you are welcome to, but you are not welcome to assert it as a fact. A Bentley is not my cup of tea, but there are plenty of reasons why someone may want to own something that is one of the top few examples of a car in terms of craftsmanship, performance, etc.
Perhaps, but science show that those reasons are wrong. MMM has referenced this several times, and is much of the point of the anti-consumption focus: buying shit doesn't make you happy. Even though almost everyone belive it will. I still do sometimes.

So it doesn't matter whether someone can afford it, or it's what they want or whatever. Buying stuff will not make the person happier, at best for a short time before they have to buy more. That's not opinion. If the same amount of money can get the person more happiness then it's stupid to go with the less optimum approach. That's just common sense.

The same conclusion that stuff doesn't bring happiness has been reached many times.  From Epicurus (building on the ideas of Socrates) to the Stoics of ancient Greece, to the teachings of Buddha, to Taoist philosophy, to literature like Thoreau's Walden, supported by modern psychological observation . . .  it keeps coming up any time that people think long and hard on how best to achieve happiness.

Maybe I'm just an unsophisticated dumbass, but I drove the sports car I bought ten years ago to work today. I enjoyed every second. I smiled all the way to work. I liked rowing the gears and feeling the wind in my hair.  It made me happy.  Would it make me happy if everything else in my life sucked?  Probably not, but my life was happier this morning than it was yesterday morning when I drove my other car to work.

I don't know what else to tell you.

Scandium

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #78 on: September 15, 2016, 11:29:18 AM »
I liked rowing the gears and feeling the wind in my hair. 

Have you tried a bicycle? It'll do those things as well..

GuitarStv

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #79 on: September 15, 2016, 11:36:36 AM »
I liked rowing the gears and feeling the wind in my hair. 

Have you tried a bicycle? It'll do those things as well..

Danger Will Robinson!!

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #80 on: September 15, 2016, 12:04:35 PM »
I liked rowing the gears and feeling the wind in my hair. 

Have you tried a bicycle? It'll do those things as well..

Have one of those too. Not exactly the same thing.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #81 on: September 15, 2016, 12:12:38 PM »
You guys aren't ascetics either; I'm sure you have things you enjoy that you don't absolutely need. Chris is just more honest about it than most.

Chris22

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #82 on: September 15, 2016, 12:17:06 PM »
I liked rowing the gears and feeling the wind in my hair. 

Have you tried a bicycle? It'll do those things as well..

So are you suggesting there's a thing, a bicycle, that I could buy, which would increase my happiness?  I thought you said it couldn't be done???

Scandium

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #83 on: September 15, 2016, 12:21:07 PM »
I liked rowing the gears and feeling the wind in my hair. 

Have you tried a bicycle? It'll do those things as well..

So are you suggesting there's a thing, a bicycle, that I could buy, which would increase my happiness?  I thought you said it couldn't be done???
No, personally I don't particularly enjoy biking. It doesn't make me happy. You just said you wanted gears and wind in your hair. I offered a way to get that.

Cycling Stache

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #84 on: September 15, 2016, 12:21:59 PM »
The rhetoric in this thread is getting out of control.

A bike is a thing.  Buying a bike made me happy.  I've ridden it 25,000 miles in the last 6 years.

I also run.  Could I run instead of bike?  Would that avoid buying that bike thing.  Yes.  Am I nonetheless happier because I bought a bike?  Yes, because I enjoy biking more.

Buying things can bring you happiness, and while it is true that normally experiences are better, some of the things you buy are for those experiences.  It's why even though running shoes may be a thing, running shoes can make you happy, because running in them versus work shoes or no shoes or any other kind of shoe is more pleasant (for most of us). 

A lot of you are focused on the car as a thing.  But I'm fairly certain the OP said that he wanted to drive it all over the place in some kind of way that made him happy.  That's an experience.  Is it true that he might get close to the same amount of joy with a lesser item?  Maybe, but the OP's suggestion was that the car was for him an experience.

Go to a track event sometime and see how happy driving cars can make some people.  Then consider that maybe the activities that make you happy might just be different than the activities that make other people happy.

And just to show how absurd this has become.  Of course, he could bike rather than drive.  But that would require buying a thing.  Or maybe he could walk rather than bike.  But that would require shoes, and thus a thing.  So the question that OP referenced is not whether a thing in of itself has value, affected OP's colleague's material wealth, etc.  It was whether OP's colleague's belief as to what would make him happy and working for that with no financial consequences to him was ridiculous.  While it might not be what many of us would do, ridiculous is a strong term when you're talking about how much others will value a particular experience.

And don't get sanctimonious about costs.  Most of us are saving hundreds of thousands of dollars for early retirement so we can fund ourselves, not so that each dollar can help another person in need.  This is not a moral issue, although there was a very long thread on that (Sol's, I believe) and the nicer than necessary shoes, nicer than necessary house, nicer than necessary clothes, any "fun activity" things you buy, etc., all suffer under the same analysis of that could have been another dollar that someone else could live on.

I understand the potential environmental impact, but that's an area we could all do better at, and it wasn't the thrust of the question posited by OP.

Indeed, this thread is starting to convince me to buy a race bike because I have ridden the crap out of mine and worn it down, and I'm starting to get more clearly that sometimes you can buy things that do bring you happiness, and that's perfectly okay if you're able to afford it and have done the math on whether working X more days/months/years is worth it.  Like buying a plane ticket to Europe.  Or hiking boots.  Or whatever else may float your boat. 

But don't buy a boat, because those really are a waste of money!  :)

gimp

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #85 on: September 15, 2016, 04:47:57 PM »
If you think the only point of a car is to get you places, you're not a car person. That's totally fine. But you therefore can't imagine how a car person feels about cars. For many of us, it's the journey, not the destination, that matters.

I still don't know why anyone cares about the "wasteful" spending of someone who can afford it.

KodeBlue

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #86 on: September 15, 2016, 06:28:51 PM »
"You used to think that it was so easy
You used to say that it was so easy
But you're trying, you're trying now
Another year and then you'd be happy
Just one more year and then you'd be happy
But you're crying, you're crying now"
Gerry Rafferty, Baker Street

Ironic, that was the theme song for Dave Ramsey's show for several years.

SeaEhm

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #87 on: September 15, 2016, 11:01:03 PM »
Chris - you just need to buy a corolla and stick your head out of the window while shifting from 1 -2 -L- D and N for when you want to rev to listen to the engine purr. 

In closing, talking to non car people about cars is like talking to people at a Yelp event who don't eat food for taste.


SeaEhm

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #88 on: September 15, 2016, 11:09:51 PM »
Regarding maximum happiness.

Some people hunt for the hunt. Some people hunt for the kill.


MilesTeg

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #89 on: September 15, 2016, 11:22:32 PM »

So he wasted money, and a significant chunk of his life.  He helped to fuel demand for a useless environmentally damaging product.  All this for no benefit of any kind.

Not up to you to judge how someone spends their money or their life. Also, if you want to save the planet, the best decision you can possibly make to maximize your contribution to that goal is to not have children. That decision will reduce your carbon footprint several orders of magnitude (at least!) more than not buying _any_ car.

Why no hate for people who have children?

Scandium

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #90 on: September 16, 2016, 04:17:53 AM »

So he wasted money, and a significant chunk of his life.  He helped to fuel demand for a useless environmentally damaging product.  All this for no benefit of any kind.

Not up to you to judge how someone spends their money or their life. Also, if you want to save the planet, the best decision you can possibly make to maximize your contribution to that goal is to not have children. That decision will reduce your carbon footprint several orders of magnitude (at least!) more than not buying _any_ car.

Why no hate for people who have children?
Why not? I reserve the right to judge all I want. What gives you the right to bar me from judging?

And what if my child will cure cancer and/or invention infinite clean fuel?

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Primm

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #91 on: September 16, 2016, 04:41:07 AM »

So he wasted money, and a significant chunk of his life.  He helped to fuel demand for a useless environmentally damaging product.  All this for no benefit of any kind.

Not up to you to judge how someone spends their money or their life. Also, if you want to save the planet, the best decision you can possibly make to maximize your contribution to that goal is to not have children. That decision will reduce your carbon footprint several orders of magnitude (at least!) more than not buying _any_ car.

Why no hate for people who have children?
Why not? I reserve the right to judge all I want. What gives you the right to bar me from judging?

And what if my child will cure cancer and/or invention infinite clean fuel?

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Poor argument in this context. If your child cures cancer the world's population grows faster so the environmental issues are magnified. So not a good thing for the earth.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 04:43:59 AM by Primm »

Scandium

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #92 on: September 16, 2016, 04:46:26 AM »

So he wasted money, and a significant chunk of his life.  He helped to fuel demand for a useless environmentally damaging product.  All this for no benefit of any kind.

Not up to you to judge how someone spends their money or their life. Also, if you want to save the planet, the best decision you can possibly make to maximize your contribution to that goal is to not have children. That decision will reduce your carbon footprint several orders of magnitude (at least!) more than not buying _any_ car.

Why no hate for people who have children?
Why not? I reserve the right to judge all I want. What gives you the right to bar me from judging?

And what if my child will cure cancer and/or invention infinite clean fuel?

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Poor argument in this context. If your child cures cancer the world's population grows faster so the environmental issues are magnified. So not a good thing for the earth.
Ok. So then what if my child is another Stalin? And murder all other humans. That'd be great for the environment right?


Edit: Here's a picture of my son right here:

« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 06:38:27 AM by Scandium »

GuitarStv

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #93 on: September 16, 2016, 05:07:53 AM »

So he wasted money, and a significant chunk of his life.  He helped to fuel demand for a useless environmentally damaging product.  All this for no benefit of any kind.

Not up to you to judge how someone spends their money or their life. Also, if you want to save the planet, the best decision you can possibly make to maximize your contribution to that goal is to not have children. That decision will reduce your carbon footprint several orders of magnitude (at least!) more than not buying _any_ car.

Why no hate for people who have children?

I didn't judge at all.  The quoted post was in response to "what's so bad if it turns out that he doesn't like the car".

I don't hate anyone for driving a car.  I'm not going to advise someone to do something that seems to be a bad descision though.

steviesterno

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2016, 05:41:24 AM »
I'm for the guy. Part of my FIRE plans involve cool vehicles. Probably not 150k each unless I come into some serious money, but enough to have fun.

If I was in his shoes I would probably rent a Bently/RR for a day or 2 and see how it goes. If it's really still a big thrill or not. If so, buy it. If not, I would end up with a small fleet.

Defender 90/FJ/land cruiser all decked out for camping and overloading. Like climb across Utah sick
Tuned up rocket car: Older WRX, porche, s2000, mercedes, something fun and tiny and stupid fast. Nope. Shelby kit car
big comfy DD. A Tahoe or big old 4 door sedan. Mercedes, Lexus, whatever.
Classics: a vintage RR. like one that could sail across the atlantic



I'm not against him spending a small chunk of change on something he's in to. I plan to do the same. But I could have all of the above for something like $40k. They would all be newer/nicer if I was super rich.


let the guy have his fun, he's earned it.

SeaEhm

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #95 on: September 16, 2016, 05:49:49 PM »

Maybe I'm just an unsophisticated dumbass, but I drove the sports car I bought ten years ago to work today. I enjoyed every second. I smiled all the way to work. I liked rowing the gears and feeling the wind in my hair.  It made me happy.  Would it make me happy if everything else in my life sucked?  Probably not, but my life was happier this morning than it was yesterday morning when I drove my other car to work.

I don't know what else to tell you.

I was in Vegas over summer and actually met up with Chris.  Being a car person , I needed a ride in his convertible sports car he talks so much about.

Here is a photo of us.  Who can honestly say we are NOT HAPPY in his car.


GuitarStv

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #96 on: September 20, 2016, 07:44:58 AM »

Maybe I'm just an unsophisticated dumbass, but I drove the sports car I bought ten years ago to work today. I enjoyed every second. I smiled all the way to work. I liked rowing the gears and feeling the wind in my hair.  It made me happy.  Would it make me happy if everything else in my life sucked?  Probably not, but my life was happier this morning than it was yesterday morning when I drove my other car to work.

I don't know what else to tell you.

I was in Vegas over summer and actually met up with Chris.  Being a car person , I needed a ride in his convertible sports car he talks so much about.

Here is a photo of us.  Who can honestly say we are NOT HAPPY in his car.



Epicurus would argue that although a heroin addict will smile happily after shooting up, it doesn't make heroin a great plan for long term life fulfillment though.

:P

Scandium

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #97 on: September 20, 2016, 07:53:00 AM »

Maybe I'm just an unsophisticated dumbass, but I drove the sports car I bought ten years ago to work today. I enjoyed every second. I smiled all the way to work. I liked rowing the gears and feeling the wind in my hair.  It made me happy.  Would it make me happy if everything else in my life sucked?  Probably not, but my life was happier this morning than it was yesterday morning when I drove my other car to work.

I don't know what else to tell you.

I was in Vegas over summer and actually met up with Chris.  Being a car person , I needed a ride in his convertible sports car he talks so much about.

Here is a photo of us.  Who can honestly say we are NOT HAPPY in his car.



Epicurus would argue that although a heroin addict will smile happily after shooting up, it doesn't make heroin a great plan for long term life fulfillment though.


Lol.
My dad got a convertible at one point. It was fun for a little while. Then it was just a car. Except noisier, colder and you got wet if it rained. Oh, it would accelerate up to the speed limit slightly quicker. But would the rush compare to skiing of a drop, or rafting down steep rapids? Not even close! In the world of legal/adrenaline highs cars are really low, and ironically also the most expensive method.

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Chris22

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #98 on: September 20, 2016, 08:58:22 AM »
But I can have a hit almost anytime. I had a couple hits this morning in the way to work. Will have more on the way home. How many times can you "ski a drop" or hit the Rapids?

GuitarStv

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Re: OMY for clown car
« Reply #99 on: September 20, 2016, 09:14:11 AM »
But I can have a hit almost anytime. I had a couple hits this morning in the way to work. Will have more on the way home. How many times can you "ski a drop" or hit the Rapids?

The key to happiness then, is having an inexhaustible supply of heroin?