The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: elysianfields on October 10, 2015, 12:06:32 AM
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Yet another article describing facepunch-worthy parents who drain their own retirement accounts and/or pensions to provide financial life support to their children and grandchildren. One case describes a former Fed who went bankrupt doing so:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/10/your-money/financial-assistance-to-adult-children.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/10/your-money/financial-assistance-to-adult-children.html)
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I came here to post this exact article. This is what made me start shouting at my computer screen:
These payments ended up tipping Ms. McClellan into bankruptcy in 2011. Since then, Ms. McClellan has sharply dialed back her own lifestyle. She can’t go on vacation cruises and has only minimal savings.
Oh no, she CAN'T GO ON CRUISES?! Major WTF for both the parents and the children from this Mustachian. Especially the children. Living off your retired parents is terrible. I'm going home to cook my parents dinner tomorrow and it won't cost them a dime. Do right by your parents, karma will come back to get you!
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When I read this NYT article yesterday I thought of the current thread about teenage expenses where even MMM readers are justifying buying $300 high school rings and paying for high school girls to have professionally done hair, nails, and makeup for a dance. I suspect those young adults still living off parents did not have to get jobs as teens.
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This is just a reminder that being Mustachian is far from the norm. Lots of adults who are so bad with money they are sucking their parents dry. Really pathetic/selfish from the adult child standpoint.
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So she's a divorced substitute teacher (which I assume means part-time worker) who lives in one of the most expensive cities in the world. And she's paying the following for her daughter:
- housing
- leased car
- credit card bills
- manicures
- vacations
- clothes
- and her house is collateral for the daughter's student loans
Admittedly, the article didn't say she was paying all these expenses for her daughter all the time. I had the impression she's paying for these items occasionally when her daughter doesn't have money for these luxuries; still, she's allowing her daughter to live a lifestyle she can't afford, and she's setting her daughter up for trouble.
It's a different woman who can't take a cruise because she's paying for her grandchildren's dance classes, private school, and trips to Disney ... all because she doesn't want them to have a "bad life" and her son can't afford all these niceties.
No wonder Americans can't afford to retire. I completely agree with helping your children through college, but this is nuts.
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Uggh, so many parents do this.
My motto when it comes to stuff like this, "Not my basement. Not my beer!" It's the only way I can let go and not tell off some of these kinds of parents, who are becoming more and more common.
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My parents made it clear when I graduated high school that they would pay for most all of my college costs (tuition, room, board, books. Anything else was on me). But once I graduated - in no more than four years - I would not receive another penny for anything, including a wedding. (I'm a guy, but my sisters got the same speech.)
Mom died while I was in college, but Dad lived up to that promise. Nor did I ever think to ask for an exception. That was very motivating and it's why I'm well on my way to FIRE in my 40s.
I plan to give the same talk to our kids when they graduate high school.
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My parents made it clear to me as well. There would be no handouts. That they paid college tuition, but the rest was on me. I had a part-time job through school and I graduated.
However, MY 25 yr old son is trying to play this entitled crap on me. I paid for his college in cash, but he wouldn't finish. He kept bragging out the classes and he still doesnt have a degree. Very frustrating! I could of used that money for my FIring. So as MMM would say, I pulled out the "bedpan and the catheter" from him. Now he lives somewhere else and doesnt get a cent from me. Play time is over, as my mother would say.
Adult children have to accept responsibility for themselves and their futures. And adults parents have to accept responsibility over their savings and retirement plans. It's the only way to get FIred.
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Makes me think of my brother's wife. Such a different lifestyle for their daughter than I had. My niece has been getting highlights in her hair since she was 13. Mani/Pedis too. This type of expectation lasted into college days when my brother was declaring bankruptcy, yet still paying for his daughter's manicures! It's appalling and if I say anything about it, then I 'Just don't understand what it's like to have kids". ugh
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I plan to give the same talk to our kids when they graduate high school.
Good for you, I wish my parents had the same talk with me, thankfully I learned my lesson after college.
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So I'm one of those adult children.
I live with my parents. They take care of almost all my expenses. Except for a few things, gas, shoes, or small things here and there for myself, my parents pretty much cover everything.
I haven't gone in a vacation in over 2 years (the last one being with parents). I've been saving over 90% of my take-home for retirement. (total gross is around 46K and I'm saving 40K, that's how low my spending is) I drive a hand-me down car from my parents. No loans, no debt, and I'm fixing my parents retirement and educating them what I learn in the MMM forums. Does this make me those spoiled "adult" children? I'm aggressively saving because I know my kids (if I can afford any) won't be able to fend for themselves from either technology, economy, whatever.
The biggest reason is, "Continuing that support into adulthood has spread, experts say, largely because the economy of the last decade has fallen short in generating good job opportunities for their millennial children." Which is a result of the economy wrecked by leaders elected by our parents. And add to the social security and tax burden we have to pay and the declining birth rates ahead of us.
The people I know my age who are living independently and largely supporting themselves have full-time, well-paid jobs. The ones closer to the adult children in the article don't have those jobs or thought they were going to get them but opportunities didn't come or they overestimated themselves. If millenials could support themselves they would. I think what this article says also is how many people are being sent to "poverty" or lower lifestyle standards than they are used to because of growing inequality, poor economy for young people. Part-time barista at Starbucks isn't a career you want forever.
Some unfair bashing in this thread. I agree we can bash on the spending habits and choices that are excessive but there probably is a bare minimum to keep up. If parents kicked all their progeny out, they could end up in bad neighborhoods, unemployed, with the wrong crowd and I HAVE SEEN THAT and it's not good in the end either. Some support could be needed. But children have to do things on their end too.
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If millenials could support themselves they would. I think what this article says also is how many people are being sent to "poverty" or lower lifestyle standards than they are used to because of growing inequality, poor economy for young people.
I think your situation is great, living together so you can secure your financial independence. But I hope you see the ridiculousness in the first sentence I quoted. Your salary should be sufficient to support yourself, but you choose not to. Lower lifestyle standards is actually the intention of making ones children independent. You know, so they start from the near bottom, and learn to appreciate everything they have/earn/achieve.
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So I'm one of those adult children.
I live with my parents. They take care of almost all my expenses. Except for a few things, gas, shoes, or small things here and there for myself, my parents pretty much cover everything.
I haven't gone in a vacation in over 2 years (the last one being with parents). I've been saving over 90% of my take-home for retirement. (total gross is around 46K and I'm saving 40K, that's how low my spending is) I drive a hand-me down car from my parents. No loans, no debt, and I'm fixing my parents retirement and educating them what I learn in the MMM forums. Does this make me those spoiled "adult" children? I'm aggressively saving because I know my kids (if I can afford any) won't be able to fend for themselves from either technology, economy, whatever.
The biggest reason is, "Continuing that support into adulthood has spread, experts say, largely because the economy of the last decade has fallen short in generating good job opportunities for their millennial children." Which is a result of the economy wrecked by leaders elected by our parents. And add to the social security and tax burden we have to pay and the declining birth rates ahead of us.
The people I know my age who are living independently and largely supporting themselves have full-time, well-paid jobs. The ones closer to the adult children in the article don't have those jobs or thought they were going to get them but opportunities didn't come or they overestimated themselves. If millenials could support themselves they would. I think what this article says also is how many people are being sent to "poverty" or lower lifestyle standards than they are used to because of growing inequality, poor economy for young people. Part-time barista at Starbucks isn't a career you want forever.
Some unfair bashing in this thread. I agree we can bash on the spending habits and choices that are excessive but there probably is a bare minimum to keep up. If parents kicked all their progeny out, they could end up in bad neighborhoods, unemployed, with the wrong crowd and I HAVE SEEN THAT and it's not good in the end either. Some support could be needed. But children have to do things on their end too.
If you have a good paying job and can save so much why are you still living at home? It doesn't sound like you have massive debt, based on you'd savings rate, so maybe it's time to move out of the basement.... My g/f still lives at home too but she also has massive student loan debt.
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Bouncing off Astavilla's post:
I have no problem with my kids living with me after college, if they're doing it so they can save money /save for a house /start strong as adults -- I'd be happy for them to stay here and save 90% of their salary for a couple years! After all, I'm going to continue to live in this 3-bedroom house whether they live here or not. However, here's the rub: I don't want them to live with me because they're unable to support themselves. I'd expect them to pay for their own gas, clothes, etc. -- AND I'd expect them to buy groceries and help around the house. In short, I'm glad for them to live here because of frugality and convenience, but I don't want it to be a last resort for them. If they couldn't support themselves, I'd tell them it's time for a weekend job.
Yes, this thread may sound harsh /sound like it's picking on young people. I can't quite buy into the "no one can get ahead these days" concept. A part of that is that young people today don't grasp that everyone has to struggle when they're young. My husband and I were very fortunate to be able to buy a house the very week we married, but we didn't have furniture in all the rooms, and we tacked up old bedsheets over the windows. The day we bought a washer and dryer, I soooo felt we had "arrived". We went months without eating out or buying clothes. No one had a cell phone or computer yet, but we had limited service on our house phone and no cable TV. We shared one car (and we lived 45 minutes from everything). These are the things that're making life on your own "unaffordable" today.
I went to a family wedding recently. Our generation is a mix of college graduates and skilled workers: Teachers, nurses, truck drivers, soldiers. No one's rich, but no one is a leach on society either. Looking at our kids, 100% are either in college or are recent college graduates (my husband's one of the younger cousins, so our kids are still in school). The older cousins' kids /the college graduates have almost all chosen the same affordable state school, and they've all chosen solid majors that lead to jobs: Nurses, accountants, speech therapists, business of different types. 100% of the kids in our family who've graduated are working in their chosen field. The oldest few are married; one has a baby. None of them are living the whiney "but we can't" lifestyle, and none of them are being supported by their parents.
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I don't relate or sympathize w/the youth featured in the article in terms of spending. A lot has to do w/media, television, and society telling us what is normal lifestyle behavior. We can all agree that Mustachians are "not the norm" although it should be.
"Her daughter, who is in her 20s, was not able to find a good-paying job and ended up moving in with her mother."
There are a lot of Mustachians like this here, minus the spending. People say it's bad to live w/parents. Historically, the idea that children have to be on their own at 18 is very foreign and an outlier in human history. If you look at other cultures and in history, children have been with their parents a lot, even until marriage. NYT had an article and comments on this and most agree. Kicking kids out in actuality is maybe not the best thing financially and staying together is a behavior we should encourage more.
But again, "Continuing that support into adulthood has spread, experts say, largely because the economy of the last decade has fallen short in generating good job opportunities for their millennial children." Please remember that people in my age group and a bit older entered their careers in the worst recession in many decades. And those effects are still carrying over. We know job prospects are still not good, global growth could be stagnant, technology is threatening many jobs, and wages are flat or falling with inflation. Those are main reasons. You are not representative of the average or population, just a tiny sample.
Young people today aren't so different from young people before but their circumstances are. It's why I can't stand baby boomers always criticizing the young. And in my workplace, the generation that criticizes are often not as hard-working as young people I see; it's incredibly hypocritical and frustrating to see that. Think "Scumbag baby boomer meme or New Economy Steve."(of course not all seniors are like this).
You cannot compare decades ago to today, different times, different eras. When I was 18, I couldn't be held responsible for the financial crisis right? But I have to deal w/it and handle it. You older people helped create those problems in voting/not voting on issues and candidates and own spending patterns.
It's easy to cite people around you as examples that young people complain. But people surround themselves with people who they want to be around and are alike in social status or values. Part of my per-diem job involves being with people I don't associate with. If I painted the world as being my circle of friends and extrapolated that to the whole world, I'd be pretty biased and ignorant. But listening to others outside, it's not always what you think. That's why I don't find social circles to be accurate sources for understanding how the world works. You need to get out and see the other perspective. I know people who have jobs and who don't. They all make decisions they think is right but it's hard to know in the end. Society is not just lawyers, health care professionals, teachers, soldiers, truck drivers. And not everyone can be those things and shouldn't be. (Teaching is incredibly difficult to find in my area). And Shiller has talked about career insurance to protect against poor decisions.
I think young people don't get get enough sympathy or understanding that their situation is much different to those before, at least in media. Young people know struggle but the issue is there's no hope for quite a few. Absolutely no future for some because the barriers to attain that are too high (even state college). I see this in a lot of young people. Plus living expenses relative to income are up. NYT featured this too on rent as a % of income. The reason I stay at home is because it's harder to save now than it was then.
If you have a good paying job and can save so much why are you still living at home? It doesn't sound like you have massive debt, based on you'd savings rate, so maybe it's time to move out of the basement.... My g/f still lives at home too but she also has massive student loan debt.
My job isn't well paying in absolute terms let's be honest (though how much I work for it, yes it is). And personally the area I'm in is expensive and I can't move out because I'm still in school. I'm staying at home to have a shot at retirement. Financially, I do very well for my age group and occupation but I know I'm an exception, not the norm. Technically I'm doing better than similar peers making 2-3X more than me. If I didn't live with my parents, my savings would be much less. I'll move out once I hit certain financial goals. And I'm not burdening my parents. Their expenses haven't changed much with me at home.
I agree that the ones featured are out of hand and stupid. And I don't think parents should finance this lifestyle. But in better times, these stories would be rare. Young people get a lot of schtick but they didn't create these job conditions. Things outside their power. If today's young people were born in the same time as older people, they wouldn't be so heavily criticized as part of medias' bashing for news clicks.
Side note: why a lot of people don't blame parents? Parents raise the kids and are responsible for how they turn out. Lately, parents are removing themselves from the failures of their kids. A big part is in education performance. It's always, "better teachers", more school spending. But that's not the problem. It's the parents. Look at Asians, why do they succeed? Good parenting. Teachers teach and if good, instill values but parents are responsible. Or maybe the parents have mediocre DNA, so why expect stellar, special kids? Kids are reflection of adults. Fail, they are not ours, it's their fault. Succeed, well because of the parents. Parents don't accept responsibility for kids failing and controlling who they hang out w/ or do. Stop being friends, start being parents. I know there's some parent bashing but those defending parents and criticizing kids, maybe look in the mirror.
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Astavilla- that the employment situation for baby boomers was better than for millennials is not supported by the numbers. In 1982 unemployment was 10.8%. In September 2015 it was 5.1%. I think a key reason millennials are having trouble financially is that their expectations for immediate rewards are so high. And many have been supported at a standard of living no one expected to live at as a 21 year old baby boomer. I teach at a university. Most students have their own car, less that 5 years old, provided by parents. Almost all have iPhones, bring large starbucks beverages to class, etc. I'm a baby boomer...bought my first car at 26 after paying my way through grad school, living in a group house where we cooked all of our meals. None on my students are willing to live like that.
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I graduated college in 1997, and the unemployment rate in y town was over 10%. I lived an a two bedroom apartment with two other college graduates. I had the bet job of the three of us working as an office clerk making $8 an hour. The psychology graduate worked in a group home making slightly above minimum wage, and the one with the teaching degree worked at a retail store because there were no teaching jobs to be had. I also worked a weekend job as a resident counselor for my alma mater just so I would have money to add to savings (plus I was able to do my laundry for free and had meals provided).
All that to say, every generation has it's own issues, and I don't buy that it is so much worse now than it was 15, 20, or 50 years ago. I didn't have a choice about whether or not to live with my parents because I was own my own once I hit 18, but I learned to scrimp, manage money, and survive without anyone's help and that is an amazing feeling.
I also blame the parents in this scenario. The reason why the kids act entitled is because their parents have taught them to be. No one put a gun to that woman's head and forced her to spend their retirement to send the grandkids to Disneyland. She obviously never told her son no or taught him to be self-sufficient so this is just a continuing pattern of dysfunction that she herself created.
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I see this a lot with my clients and it's very frustrating. It seems like retirement savings is the last priority for most people - behind college savings, behind new cars, behind manicures, behind Disneyland.
Most people don't even want to start saving for retirement until their kids are out of college.
And even with those good intentions, of starting to save in their 50s or 60s, they're so used to spending everything that they can't scrape two pennies together for savings. Then of course, the grandkids arrive and they just shift their spending to the grandkids. It never seems to occur to them that after the huge financial leg up that they gave their children, they basically have nothing to show for it - their kids aren't able to provide the grandkids with the same luxuries that they were provided with and the grandparents "need" to step in.
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My parents made it clear to me as well. There would be no handouts. That they paid college tuition, but the rest was on me. I had a part-time job through school and I graduated.
However, MY 25 yr old son is trying to play this entitled crap on me. I paid for his college in cash, but he wouldn't finish. He kept bragging out the classes and he still doesnt have a degree. Very frustrating! I could of used that money for my FIring. So as MMM would say, I pulled out the "bedpan and the catheter" from him. Now he lives somewhere else and doesnt get a cent from me. Play time is over, as my mother would say.
Adult children have to accept responsibility for themselves and their futures. And adults parents have to accept responsibility over their savings and retirement plans. It's the only way to get FIred.
You're doing the right thing. I was your son at one point. I went off and spent an enlistment in the military and was MUCH, MUCH better for it. I am very self sufficient since then and have asked for nothing - and wouldn't either unless circumstances were very dire. Married great girl (woman), she is well employed too, etc. Culmination of many right choices over many years.
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Had an interesting exchange with DS on the bus on the way home last night, relevant to this topic. There was an ad for an "apodment" type complex near campus where rooms (extremely small studios with kitchenette and bath) were renting from $700-900. At first he said "that's cheap!" -- I guess it is compared to our $1600 rent.
Reading MMM has been such an education. I know HCOL areas often pay more but is it enough to make up for life in a HCOL area? We live in a LCOL area and rent on that quoted studio apartment would make the mortgage payment on a 1700-1900 sq ft home here with three bedrooms, two full baths, 1/3 acre lot and garage plus shed(s).
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The biggest reason is, "Continuing that support into adulthood has spread, experts say, largely because the economy of the last decade has fallen short in generating good job opportunities for their millennial children." Which is a result of the economy wrecked by leaders elected by our parents. And add to the social security and tax burden we have to pay and the declining birth rates ahead of us.
If millenials could support themselves they would. I think what this article says also is how many people are being sent to "poverty" or lower lifestyle standards than they are used to because of growing inequality, poor economy for young people. Part-time barista at Starbucks isn't a career you want forever.
It truly is a burden us millenials have to bear. It's really hard being retired at 25.
What's even harder is the fact that we've never been more connected and information has never been easier to come by. It's difficult when you can start a multitude of businesses for less than $1000. It's hard, whenever I want to know something, I can type it into google, ugh, I hate having the world at my fingertips, give me faxes and pagers any day. It's hard having the lowest historical interest rates of all modern history. Add to that that there's never been fewer wars going on all over the place. Wish we had the great depression and a constant fear of nuclear annihilation, the previous generations had it so good.
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Had an interesting exchange with DS on the bus on the way home last night, relevant to this topic. There was an ad for an "apodment" type complex near campus where rooms (extremely small studios with kitchenette and bath) were renting from $700-900. At first he said "that's cheap!" -- I guess it is compared to our $1600 rent.
Reading MMM has been such an education. I know HCOL areas often pay more but is it enough to make up for life in a HCOL area? We live in a LCOL area and rent on that quoted studio apartment would make the mortgage payment on a 1700-1900 sq ft home here with three bedrooms, two full baths, 1/3 acre lot and garage plus shed(s).
COL is so insanely variable. I'm in a (crappy) city of 300,000, with a decent job market, and that's pretty much exactly what that 'rent' would buy here, as well.
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I graduated college in 1997, and the unemployment rate in y town was over 10%. I lived an a two bedroom apartment with two other college graduates. I had the bet job of the three of us working as an office clerk making $8 an hour. The psychology graduate worked in a group home making slightly above minimum wage, and the one with the teaching degree worked at a retail store because there were no teaching jobs to be had. I also worked a weekend job as a resident counselor for my alma mater just so I would have money to add to savings (plus I was able to do my laundry for free and had meals provided).
All that to say, every generation has it's own issues, and I don't buy that it is so much worse now than it was 15, 20, or 50 years ago. I didn't have a choice about whether or not to live with my parents because I was own my own once I hit 18, but I learned to scrimp, manage money, and survive without anyone's help and that is an amazing feeling.
I also blame the parents in this scenario. The reason why the kids act entitled is because their parents have taught them to be. No one put a gun to that woman's head and forced her to spend their retirement to send the grandkids to Disneyland. She obviously never told her son no or taught him to be self-sufficient so this is just a continuing pattern of dysfunction that she herself created.
I think the particular challenges of millenials is some combo of job market (not so much no jobs, as jobs with lower wages); slightly larger student loans; and entitlement problems (which I don't really blame them for...I blame the parents more).
I'm a Gen X er who grew up middle to upper middle. My parents never even considered paying tuition for us kids, though they did send a small monthly stipend (~300$) to help with living expenses as long as someone was taking a full undergrad course load. They never bought us trips, computers, or cars...I didn't own a car until I was in my late 20s, when I finally got a job that required me to drive 8 miles to work. My husband and I lived for 9 years in a one room studio while going to college and graduate school. We slept and sat on crappy hand me down furniture, and didn't purchase any furniture ourselves or live in a place with more than 2 rooms until I was 29. Hell, I didn't even buy a cell phone until I was in my late 30s, and I still don't have a smart phone to this day. During college years, we were very occasionally subsidized with cash from my parents during a few emergencies (my dad fixed my misaligned car and bought me new tires once when we were totally broke...thanks!), and they bought my first couple of plane tickets home from college for the holidays. By far the most crucial subsidy we got was a 10K gift of cash that served as a down payment for our house, but that came from a wealthy grandparent, not my parents. I dunno, my parents' general attitude was that once you moved out (for me, at 19), minimal support was to be administered, and only for the first couple of years.
Some of my friends were much more subsidized by parents, some of my friends lived lives similar to mine with occasional help.....kind of a 50:50 type spread. But this lifestyle of hand-me-downs and scraping by seems somewhat less common now, maybe roughly 75:25? I do realize, however, that my sample mostly includes kids in college who then go on to grad school, which does tend to postpone consumerism somewhat generally.
So anecdotally, our experience is more millenials than Gen Xers are being heavily subsidized by their parents, esp if they come from middle to upper class homes. I wonder what the trend is among lower income millenials...
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My parents made it clear to me as well. There would be no handouts. That they paid college tuition, but the rest was on me. I had a part-time job through school and I graduated.
However, MY 25 yr old son is trying to play this entitled crap on me. I paid for his college in cash, but he wouldn't finish. He kept bragging out the classes and he still doesnt have a degree. Very frustrating! I could of used that money for my FIring. So as MMM would say, I pulled out the "bedpan and the catheter" from him. Now he lives somewhere else and doesnt get a cent from me. Play time is over, as my mother would say.
Adult children have to accept responsibility for themselves and their futures. And adults parents have to accept responsibility over their savings and retirement plans. It's the only way to get FIred.
I just had an interesting conversation with my nine year old this weekend about that. Money, leaving money to him, etc. I said "look, we will probably pay for part of your college, if not most. But you need to save your own money so you don't graduate from college broke. You are going to maybe need a car, and a deposit on an apartment, etc. You need to save allowance now, and money from a job in high school and in college."
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Bouncing off Astavilla's post:
I have no problem with my kids living with me after college, if they're doing it so they can save money /save for a house /start strong as adults -- I'd be happy for them to stay here and save 90% of their salary for a couple years! After all, I'm going to continue to live in this 3-bedroom house whether they live here or not. However, here's the rub: I don't want them to live with me because they're unable to support themselves. I'd expect them to pay for their own gas, clothes, etc. -- AND I'd expect them to buy groceries and help around the house. In short, I'm glad for them to live here because of frugality and convenience, but I don't want it to be a last resort for them. If they couldn't support themselves, I'd tell them it's time for a weekend job.
Yes, this thread may sound harsh /sound like it's picking on young people. I can't quite buy into the "no one can get ahead these days" concept. A part of that is that young people today don't grasp that everyone has to struggle when they're young. My husband and I were very fortunate to be able to buy a house the very week we married, but we didn't have furniture in all the rooms, and we tacked up old bedsheets over the windows. The day we bought a washer and dryer, I soooo felt we had "arrived". We went months without eating out or buying clothes. No one had a cell phone or computer yet, but we had limited service on our house phone and no cable TV. We shared one car (and we lived 45 minutes from everything). These are the things that're making life on your own "unaffordable" today.
I went to a family wedding recently. Our generation is a mix of college graduates and skilled workers: Teachers, nurses, truck drivers, soldiers. No one's rich, but no one is a leach on society either. Looking at our kids, 100% are either in college or are recent college graduates (my husband's one of the younger cousins, so our kids are still in school). The older cousins' kids /the college graduates have almost all chosen the same affordable state school, and they've all chosen solid majors that lead to jobs: Nurses, accountants, speech therapists, business of different types. 100% of the kids in our family who've graduated are working in their chosen field. The oldest few are married; one has a baby. None of them are living the whiney "but we can't" lifestyle, and none of them are being supported by their parents.
Yes this - plus you need to contribute.
I had an employee - young guy working for me. He still lived with his parents, for about 4 years after college. His sister did too. They both had decent jobs, but the family pretty much wanted it that way. He ate leftovers that his parents cooked, but he drove his own car and bought his own gas and helped around the house. He looked for new jobs - got a great offer but honestly the increase in pay didn't make up for the fact that he'd have to move out.
Long story short, he's 28 now - now he's moved out, lives with his girlfriend, pays his own way. He probably lived rent free for a few years, but they certainly didn't pay his car payment, gas, or cell phone bill. I was his boss, he was making over $70k for crying out loud.
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So I'm one of those adult children.
I live with my parents. They take care of almost all my expenses. Except for a few things, gas, shoes, or small things here and there for myself, my parents pretty much cover everything.
I haven't gone in a vacation in over 2 years (the last one being with parents). I've been saving over 90% of my take-home for retirement. (total gross is around 46K and I'm saving 40K, that's how low my spending is) I drive a hand-me down car from my parents. No loans, no debt, and I'm fixing my parents retirement and educating them what I learn in the MMM forums. Does this make me those spoiled "adult" children? I'm aggressively saving because I know my kids (if I can afford any) won't be able to fend for themselves from either technology, economy, whatever.
The biggest reason is, "Continuing that support into adulthood has spread, experts say, largely because the economy of the last decade has fallen short in generating good job opportunities for their millennial children." Which is a result of the economy wrecked by leaders elected by our parents. And add to the social security and tax burden we have to pay and the declining birth rates ahead of us.
The people I know my age who are living independently and largely supporting themselves have full-time, well-paid jobs. The ones closer to the adult children in the article don't have those jobs or thought they were going to get them but opportunities didn't come or they overestimated themselves. If millenials could support themselves they would. I think what this article says also is how many people are being sent to "poverty" or lower lifestyle standards than they are used to because of growing inequality, poor economy for young people. Part-time barista at Starbucks isn't a career you want forever.
Some unfair bashing in this thread. I agree we can bash on the spending habits and choices that are excessive but there probably is a bare minimum to keep up. If parents kicked all their progeny out, they could end up in bad neighborhoods, unemployed, with the wrong crowd and I HAVE SEEN THAT and it's not good in the end either. Some support could be needed. But children have to do things on their end too.
If you have a good paying job and can save so much why are you still living at home? It doesn't sound like you have massive debt, based on you'd savings rate, so maybe it's time to move out of the basement.... My g/f still lives at home too but she also has massive student loan debt.
Why? I lived at home for two years after graduation, even with a good job. It was wonderful. I developed a new closeness with my parents, saved a ton of money, and generally had a great time. I contributed to the household with both money and labor. In much of the world, it's common for children to live at home until they marry, and sometimes after.
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The biggest reason is, "Continuing that support into adulthood has spread, experts say, largely because the economy of the last decade has fallen short in generating good job opportunities for their millennial children." Which is a result of the economy wrecked by leaders elected by our parents. And add to the social security and tax burden we have to pay and the declining birth rates ahead of us.
If millenials could support themselves they would. I think what this article says also is how many people are being sent to "poverty" or lower lifestyle standards than they are used to because of growing inequality, poor economy for young people. Part-time barista at Starbucks isn't a career you want forever.
It truly is a burden us millenials have to bear. It's really hard being retired at 25.
What's even harder is the fact that we've never been more connected and information has never been easier to come by. It's difficult when you can start a multitude of businesses for less than $1000. It's hard, whenever I want to know something, I can type it into google, ugh, I hate having the world at my fingertips, give me faxes and pagers any day. It's hard having the lowest historical interest rates of all modern history. Add to that that there's never been fewer wars going on all over the place. Wish we had the great depression and a constant fear of nuclear annihilation, the previous generations had it so good.
I love your response Andy, pure gold!
My first job, at 20 years old, after getting my 2 year degree in 2008, was for an insurance company making 28k a year. It was a MCOL city, I rented a studio apartment by myself, paid for my groceries (my sister in law still jokes about coming over and finding nothing but bread and beer in my fridge), and the rest of my bills. To act like we have it so rough is pathetic, go out, work hard, try your best, and make something of yourself.
Now, I'm 27 (I think), married, have a daughter and another one on the way. We make less than 85k a year between both of our incomes, make our mortgage payment, pay my student loans, our bills, our daycare, and anything else that we have to to get by. Could we ask our parents for help? Yep, we could, but we won't. We both save for our retirement, not up to MMM standards, but it's better than nothing (I think I have 40k in my 401k..ish).
It isn't easy, no one said it would be, but it is quite an adventure thus far. Now, off to go get my kid from daycare, and see her yell "daddy" and come running for me!
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People coming out of college have unreasonable expectations about their economic worth in the real world. I think previous generations assumed their first job would suck, while graduates now expect to start at middle management roles with little qualification and planning. Basically graduates are surprised that no one at work cares about their generic, vaguely useful degree and only care about them making a profit for the company.
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The biggest reason is, "Continuing that support into adulthood has spread, experts say, largely because the economy of the last decade has fallen short in generating good job opportunities for their millennial children." Which is a result of the economy wrecked by leaders elected by our parents. And add to the social security and tax burden we have to pay and the declining birth rates ahead of us.
If millenials could support themselves they would. I think what this article says also is how many people are being sent to "poverty" or lower lifestyle standards than they are used to because of growing inequality, poor economy for young people. Part-time barista at Starbucks isn't a career you want forever.
It truly is a burden us millenials have to bear. It's really hard being retired at 25.
What's even harder is the fact that we've never been more connected and information has never been easier to come by. It's difficult when you can start a multitude of businesses for less than $1000. It's hard, whenever I want to know something, I can type it into google, ugh, I hate having the world at my fingertips, give me faxes and pagers any day. It's hard having the lowest historical interest rates of all modern history. Add to that that there's never been fewer wars going on all over the place. Wish we had the great depression and a constant fear of nuclear annihilation, the previous generations had it so good.
I love your response Andy, pure gold!
My first job, at 20 years old, after getting my 2 year degree in 2008, was for an insurance company making 28k a year. It was a MCOL city, I rented a studio apartment by myself, paid for my groceries (my sister in law still jokes about coming over and finding nothing but bread and beer in my fridge), and the rest of my bills. To act like we have it so rough is pathetic, go out, work hard, try your best, and make something of yourself.
Now, I'm 27 (I think), married, have a daughter and another one on the way. We make less than 85k a year between both of our incomes, make our mortgage payment, pay my student loans, our bills, our daycare, and anything else that we have to to get by. Could we ask our parents for help? Yep, we could, but we won't. We both save for our retirement, not up to MMM standards, but it's better than nothing (I think I have 40k in my 401k..ish).
It isn't easy, no one said it would be, but it is quite an adventure thus far. Now, off to go get my kid from daycare, and see her yell "daddy" and come running for me!
Haha, glad someone likes it, wasn't sure if I was being a massive bell end to that guy. Most of my friends have that attitude and it's quite infuriating. I think we've got the right idea though, wouldn't dare ask my parents for money to live off.
Other than from my own businesses,I've only ever earned minimum wage (and less than from paper rounds - £8 per week!) and at one point supported my slacker of an ex girlfriend on it too, reasonably comfortably.
Congrats on achieving that with children, I don't think I'd be in anywhere near the same position if I had kids.
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The biggest reason is, "Continuing that support into adulthood has spread, experts say, largely because the economy of the last decade has fallen short in generating good job opportunities for their millennial children." Which is a result of the economy wrecked by leaders elected by our parents. And add to the social security and tax burden we have to pay and the declining birth rates ahead of us.
If millenials could support themselves they would. I think what this article says also is how many people are being sent to "poverty" or lower lifestyle standards than they are used to because of growing inequality, poor economy for young people. Part-time barista at Starbucks isn't a career you want forever.
It truly is a burden us millenials have to bear. It's really hard being retired at 25.
What's even harder is the fact that we've never been more connected and information has never been easier to come by. It's difficult when you can start a multitude of businesses for less than $1000. It's hard, whenever I want to know something, I can type it into google, ugh, I hate having the world at my fingertips, give me faxes and pagers any day. It's hard having the lowest historical interest rates of all modern history. Add to that that there's never been fewer wars going on all over the place. Wish we had the great depression and a constant fear of nuclear annihilation, the previous generations had it so good.
The biggest reason is, "Continuing that support into adulthood has spread, experts say, largely because the economy of the last decade has fallen short in generating good job opportunities for their millennial children." Which is a result of the economy wrecked by leaders elected by our parents. And add to the social security and tax burden we have to pay and the declining birth rates ahead of us.
If millenials could support themselves they would. I think what this article says also is how many people are being sent to "poverty" or lower lifestyle standards than they are used to because of growing inequality, poor economy for young people. Part-time barista at Starbucks isn't a career you want forever.
It truly is a burden us millenials have to bear. It's really hard being retired at 25.
What's even harder is the fact that we've never been more connected and information has never been easier to come by. It's difficult when you can start a multitude of businesses for less than $1000. It's hard, whenever I want to know something, I can type it into google, ugh, I hate having the world at my fingertips, give me faxes and pagers any day. It's hard having the lowest historical interest rates of all modern history. Add to that that there's never been fewer wars going on all over the place. Wish we had the great depression and a constant fear of nuclear annihilation, the previous generations had it so good.
+1
I'm a 30 year old business owner and more than halfway to a healthy FIRE goal. All I can say is I see opportunity everywhere. I know lots of people taking advantage of those opportunities. The ones who are not usually trot out the "economy" and other tires macro level excuses. But, from my millennial vantage point - it's all them.
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I think it's not just the job market, nor is it the cost of living, it also includes two other factors: my generation (I'm 20, so these people are close enough in age to me) doesn't want to work, and thinks we deserve a good lifestyle. Work is important if you want money, and yet I've seen people turn down jobs because they were too much work, and then complain they had no money. I've also seen people blow tons of money on restaurants, cars (university students probably don't have enough money for a new car every few years), rent (I know a guy who lived in a two bedroom apartment on his own because he "needed space", and would complain about the rent). And then there's the amount people blow on coffee....
Sorry for the mini-rant, but being responsible with your money is really rare, especially among young people.
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Help from parents can be a blessing or a curse. If parents don't instill personal responsibility in their kids way before college, then it will be a painful process later on no matter what. At that point, parental help is just kicking the can down the road.
If done right, help is temporary, to alleviate specific burdens, with well-understood boundaries. The same principles go for parental help as for borrowing money -- you don't borrow for regular expenses, to buy luxury items, just because other people are doing it, to buy an expensive education that's unlikely to give a good financial return, etc. The exception to short-term help would be the historic norm of multi-generational living. In that case, the child doesn't necessarily have to pay rent, though they should offer if their heart is in the right place, and they should contribute to food, upkeep, building up the family, etc.
If I had lived in the same town as my parents when I got out of college, I would have been happy to live with them. I did get a loan to buy a cheap car. I don't remember whether I got help with my first month's expenses, but that would have been reasonable.
While you're punching the "can't" and "won't" out of someone, it doesn't help to ignore the difficulties. We're not here to sneer at or blame each other, which I sense a lot of in these generation generalizations. I don't care if you're $200K in debt or at $1M net worth at age 27, blaming others or taking 100% responsibility yourself, or whatever; we're all on the same road.
Yes, society's collective financial decisions might have made things harder for you and your friends, and that sucks. No, it's not a financial death sentence, and isn't it great that we have the knowledge and support to do much better?
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astvilla.......Wah wah wah wah wah, dude get over yourself. You are a mooch, you have a good income (you say not so, but you just about at the average for the US Household) and yet you contribute nothing and take take take take......I turned stuff down from my parents when I was in high school, can't imagine taking as an adult. Amazing that your defense of your generation and your attitude actually embodies your generation. Where is it mandatory that a 22 year old should make six figures or not have to work a lower paying job (far lower than yours btw).....I make quite a bit but still I am prepared to go work a low paying job if I have to.....and certainly did when I was younger (mowed lawns, detailed cars, busboy, waiter, bartender, lifeguard, babysat, sold sodas and pretzels in front of stores - w permission and at 13 years old btw). Typical whiny millenial BS!.
As MsPete said having the kids back at the house after colleger or in times of financials distress (such as job loss) is perfectly fine as long as it comes with conditions of acting like an adult, contributing to the household, and paying for your own crap (in fact this way of life, multigenerational living is common everywhere else in the world). Happy to let them leverage themselves off of my fixed costs (housing) but it is ridiculous to permit it simply to subsidize a lifestyle.
Every generation in history has had it tough when they were young, maybe for varying reasons....that's life. Millenials may be very smart and savy but my experience is that they are entitled, don't want to work the same way, and want to spend most evenings out at fancy places (this really applies to those that live in urban environments)....maybe this YOLO mentality even makes them smarter from a life perspective who knows.
I think it's not just the job market, nor is it the cost of living, it also includes two other factors: my generation (I'm 20, so these people are close enough in age to me) doesn't want to work, and thinks we deserve a good lifestyle. Work is important if you want money, and yet I've seen people turn down jobs because they were too much work, and then complain they had no money. I've also seen people blow tons of money on restaurants, cars (university students probably don't have enough money for a new car every few years), rent (I know a guy who lived in a two bedroom apartment on his own because he "needed space", and would complain about the rent). And then there's the amount people blow on coffee....
Sorry for the mini-rant, but being responsible with your money is really rare, especially among young people.
Exactly....
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Astavilla- that the employment situation for baby boomers was better than for millennials is not supported by the numbers. In 1982 unemployment was 10.8%. In September 2015 it was 5.1%. I think a key reason millennials are having trouble financially is that their expectations for immediate rewards are so high. And many have been supported at a standard of living no one expected to live at as a 21 year old baby boomer. I teach at a university. Most students have their own car, less that 5 years old, provided by parents. Almost all have iPhones, bring large starbucks beverages to class, etc. I'm a baby boomer...bought my first car at 26 after paying my way through grad school, living in a group house where we cooked all of our meals. None on my students are willing to live like that.
I, too, call BS on the claim that unemployment recently was the worst in decades... so I checked the facts (for Canada).
The early 80's were by far the worst for youth (age 20-24) unemployment, at 14-18%... Then the early 90's at 14% to 16%.... The 2009 recession was a single year blip in unemployment, and rose to a staggering 12%, then quickly reverted to its trend of 10%... Yes, that is much higher than 5 years before when it was only 8%, but compared to new grads taking whatever job they could in the 80's, and thanking their lucky stars while living in a basement suite for the next 8 years... yeah. recent decades have it easy.
The 70's were around 9-12% unemployement, more "normal"...
The USA had a steeper trend around the recent recession, but overall, look pretty close to Canada for most years.
This just shows us that when we rely on our perception instead of data, our viewpoints are often warped easily. It happens to all of us.
See picture attached.
(http://)
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Second post -- as to the difficulties today versus previously...
1) HCOL areas have increased dramatically in cost versus income. I am not sure a Barrista making $15/hr on 35 hr / wk could afford a basement suite around here now.... For this reason alone, it can make sense to live with parents, while paying a reasonable rent, like a boarder would.
2) Student loans -- although many of us see ways of graduating without them, I think we can all agree that the 4 year tuition has increased more than inflation.
3) Child Care (doesn't apply to most -- yet, but oh, boy!)
4) Parent helicopters / giving too much / making it easier for their kids. This is not the kids fault, IMO. I can easily see how I could have gotten partially sucked into taking my career a bit easier, if my parents supported me a bit more... especially during the suck- it-tude years (6 years of it!) when I had to move away to get work, and then could not find a new job with similar pay to transfer into..when that one started to such 3 years in... It would have been so easy to take the cushy seat, live with mom for a year, while looking for work in the city I wanted to live in. (insert big sucking noise of economic outpatient care trap here).
Today, thankfully, I have all of you, I am set in my frugally ways, and having finally moved back to my extended families' city I can fend off with ease when the "generosity" gets a bit too much...
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So I'm one of those adult children.
I live with my parents. They take care of almost all my expenses. Except for a few things, gas, shoes, or small things here and there for myself, my parents pretty much cover everything.
I haven't gone in a vacation in over 2 years (the last one being with parents). I've been saving over 90% of my take-home for retirement. (total gross is around 46K and I'm saving 40K, that's how low my spending is) I drive a hand-me down car from my parents. No loans, no debt, and I'm fixing my parents retirement and educating them what I learn in the MMM forums. Does this make me those spoiled "adult" children? I'm aggressively saving because I know my kids (if I can afford any) won't be able to fend for themselves from either technology, economy, whatever.
The biggest reason is, "Continuing that support into adulthood has spread, experts say, largely because the economy of the last decade has fallen short in generating good job opportunities for their millennial children." Which is a result of the economy wrecked by leaders elected by our parents. And add to the social security and tax burden we have to pay and the declining birth rates ahead of us.
The people I know my age who are living independently and largely supporting themselves have full-time, well-paid jobs. The ones closer to the adult children in the article don't have those jobs or thought they were going to get them but opportunities didn't come or they overestimated themselves. If millenials could support themselves they would. I think what this article says also is how many people are being sent to "poverty" or lower lifestyle standards than they are used to because of growing inequality, poor economy for young people. Part-time barista at Starbucks isn't a career you want forever.
Some unfair bashing in this thread. I agree we can bash on the spending habits and choices that are excessive but there probably is a bare minimum to keep up. If parents kicked all their progeny out, they could end up in bad neighborhoods, unemployed, with the wrong crowd and I HAVE SEEN THAT and it's not good in the end either. Some support could be needed. But children have to do things on their end too.
If you have a good paying job and can save so much why are you still living at home? It doesn't sound like you have massive debt, based on you'd savings rate, so maybe it's time to move out of the basement.... My g/f still lives at home too but she also has massive student loan debt.
Some people actually like their families and like to be around them. Fucked up but true.
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It never seems to occur to them that after the huge financial leg up that they gave their children, they basically have nothing to show for it - their kids aren't able to provide the grandkids with the same luxuries that they were provided with and the grandparents "need" to step in.
Ouch! So true.
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+1
I'm a 30 year old business owner and more than halfway to a healthy FIRE goal. All I can say is I see opportunity everywhere. I know lots of people taking advantage of those opportunities. The ones who are not usually trot out the "economy" and other tires macro level excuses. But, from my millennial vantage point - it's all them.
Definitely a truth, and there are lots of examples on other threads here, such as "Relatives who just don't get it".
My brother and I are another example. He was given the opportunity, several times, to take over the very successful family business. But he lacked the self-discipline to stay with it, and also blew every dime he made on expensive cars, housing, gadgets, etc., in addition to wrecking his health with drugs and alcohol. Now at 57 he has nothing and is living on disability. I took advantage of the opportunities I had, lived within my means, put myself through uni, and have worked steadily and planned for retirement. I'm 53 now, a "millionaire next door", and hope to be FI within in a couple years.
Every generation blames "the establishment", as the boomers called it, with some justification of course, but individual responsibility is also a big part of success.
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Ugh, as the mom of two boys, 23 and 19, I am embarrassed for my parenting cohort. I regret that I did not discover MMM earlier in my life, and I have made every mistake in the book except maybe this one.
Come on parents! Do not enable this behavior to the detriment of your kids' growth and your financial health.
Back to lurking...
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Why is everyone referring to 18-24 year olds in college as "youth", "boys","girls" etc.? They are adults not children, if they live with you at home they aren't getting ready for "adulthood" they are adults living with their parents.
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Why is everyone referring to 18-24 year olds in college as "youth", "boys","girls" etc.? They are adults not children, if they live with you at home they aren't getting ready for "adulthood" they are adults living with their parents.
I hope they are actually adults, but the odds are that many are just overgrown, over-privileged children.
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Why is everyone referring to 18-24 year olds in college as "youth", "boys","girls" etc.? They are adults not children, if they live with you at home they aren't getting ready for "adulthood" they are adults living with their parents.
I hope they are actually adults, but the odds are that many are just overgrown, over-privileged children.
They are certainly given permission to act that way. It doesn't help when other adults who ought to know better keep infantilizing them by referring to them using words generally reserved for actual children. What's even worse is when the "youth" in question start cranking out children of their own while still refusing to learn how to care for themselves (much less another helpless mini human). There are even television shows that idealize this sort of nonsense.
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I feel like I should add my anecdotal story here as some counter-evidence(exception that proves the rule? haha). My father paid for everything(and I mean, everything) all the way through college, and then another few years after that.
The reason was that after I graduated, I got into an accelerator program for a startup idea I had but my expenses weren't nearly covered. So he kept paying for things as if I were in college for two years so that I could pursue this startup(and in the process learn how to build entire software products from the ground up on my own). The startup failed, and so I decided to try medical school instead. While I was taking extra classes and the MCAT, he paid for that, too(another year or so.)
Then, eventually, the guy who had invested in my startup called me out of the blue and offered me a job in software development in Chicago. I took it. As soon as I had the job, within 3 weeks I had cut myself off voluntarily from his help, and now a few years later, I'm making six figures and am doing the best out of the 6 kids so far. I'm also well on my way to FIRE.
So, not all kids that have helicopter parents end up this way. I think this style will probably yield more spoiled kids than not(I certainly was spoiled), but some of them will make it through the breach.
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A friend of mine let his deadbeat daughter and her boyfriend(!) move back in with them "for a while". Not only do they not hold steady jobs or otherwise contribute to the household, but they then proceed to complain about every little thing. Totally ungrateful. At one point they actually tried moving out, only to get ripped off by their "friends" --my buddy let them back in, and after a brief period of humility they were back to their old ways. They are totally driving my friend and his wife nuts.
So my friend's solution? He bought another house for them to live in!?! Right down the street from his own home. Granted, it was a sweet deal on a foreclosure (even with the major plumbing problems that he found later). And he swears he's going to charge them rent (a minuscule amount, enabled by the extreme cheapness of the house) and make them do basic upkeep.
But I don't believe for a second that they'll keep up their end long term, any more than they've done right by him up to now. And I don't think he'll have the stomach to kick them out over it, which means that he's going to end up footing the bill for their nice new living arrangement and probably maintaining it for them as well.
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So I'm one of those adult children.
I live with my parents. They take care of almost all my expenses. Except for a few things, gas, shoes, or small things here and there for myself, my parents pretty much cover everything.
I haven't gone in a vacation in over 2 years (the last one being with parents). I've been saving over 90% of my take-home for retirement. (total gross is around 46K and I'm saving 40K, that's how low my spending is) I drive a hand-me down car from my parents. No loans, no debt, and I'm fixing my parents retirement and educating them what I learn in the MMM forums. Does this make me those spoiled "adult" children? I'm aggressively saving because I know my kids (if I can afford any) won't be able to fend for themselves from either technology, economy, whatever.
The biggest reason is, "Continuing that support into adulthood has spread, experts say, largely because the economy of the last decade has fallen short in generating good job opportunities for their millennial children." Which is a result of the economy wrecked by leaders elected by our parents. And add to the social security and tax burden we have to pay and the declining birth rates ahead of us.
The people I know my age who are living independently and largely supporting themselves have full-time, well-paid jobs. The ones closer to the adult children in the article don't have those jobs or thought they were going to get them but opportunities didn't come or they overestimated themselves. If millenials could support themselves they would. I think what this article says also is how many people are being sent to "poverty" or lower lifestyle standards than they are used to because of growing inequality, poor economy for young people. Part-time barista at Starbucks isn't a career you want forever.
Some unfair bashing in this thread. I agree we can bash on the spending habits and choices that are excessive but there probably is a bare minimum to keep up. If parents kicked all their progeny out, they could end up in bad neighborhoods, unemployed, with the wrong crowd and I HAVE SEEN THAT and it's not good in the end either. Some support could be needed. But children have to do things on their end too.
If you have a good paying job and can save so much why are you still living at home? It doesn't sound like you have massive debt, based on you'd savings rate, so maybe it's time to move out of the basement.... My g/f still lives at home too but she also has massive student loan debt.
Some people actually like their families and like to be around them. Fucked up but true.
That's actually true but never purposely pondered about. I do like being around them. And they like being around me. Maybe I'm normal and everyone else is messed up? If you actually think about it.
I feel like I should add my anecdotal story here as some counter-evidence(exception that proves the rule? haha). My father paid for everything(and I mean, everything) all the way through college, and then another few years after that.
The reason was that after I graduated, I got into an accelerator program for a startup idea I had but my expenses weren't nearly covered. So he kept paying for things as if I were in college for two years so that I could pursue this startup(and in the process learn how to build entire software products from the ground up on my own). The startup failed, and so I decided to try medical school instead. While I was taking extra classes and the MCAT, he paid for that, too(another year or so.)
Then, eventually, the guy who had invested in my startup called me out of the blue and offered me a job in software development in Chicago. I took it. As soon as I had the job, within 3 weeks I had cut myself off voluntarily from his help, and now a few years later, I'm making six figures and am doing the best out of the 6 kids so far. I'm also well on my way to FIRE.
So, not all kids that have helicopter parents end up this way. I think this style will probably yield more spoiled kids than not(I certainly was spoiled), but some of them will make it through the breach.
True. It's pretty easy to get carried away and apply your own experiences and think it happens to everyone else the same way. In life, science, drug trials, not everyone responds to the same treatment identically. Some do well, others don't, that's life, that's variability.
The article focuses on the bad side. But there's people like us that take advantage and make the most of it while staying realistic and humble. The article is one side of the coin. There's a lot of mustachians that had similar situations but came out great. So many people think, well it happened to my kids this way, it will happen to you. Not the case always. My parents and life experiences instill values today that I cherish like frugality. Even when I lived on my own, I was more frugal than my parents because of my budget. So it's entertaining to see the ones that try to put you down or paint me with the same brush they do w/everyone else.
Thanks for the story. This thread really could use some balance and much-needed perspective. To me, most of the whiners are middle-aged people who had failed kids and didn't do enough or had bad luck, bad genes, w/e. So they hope all of us are like that so it's a generational fail, not a personal fail. Everyone's got ego, just the way it is.
OTOH, I'm making a lot of progress to FIRE on a very low income (state is 1 of highest COL and highest per capital income) so...I'm satisfied w/my own frugality and progress. It wouldn't be possible w/out my parents. That's why I love them and don't intend on condemning them to nursing homes or distancing myself from them. I hope to reach independence with their help and assist them in their old age in turn because I'll be pretty independent by then too.
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Often adult children living at home are the ones supporting the parents. A lot of my friends have parents or grandparents living with them. The young adults are the main money earners. I don't know why American culture is so against multi-generational households. I understand that's not the what the article is about, but I don't see why there is such opposition to the idea of adult children staying in their parents home. In some cultures it's perfectly acceptable for the adult children to live with parents, but here it's considered evidence of some character flaw if someone fails to move out as soon as they become an adult.
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Often adult children living at home are the ones supporting the parents. A lot of my friends have parents or grandparents living with them. The young adults are the main money earners. I don't know why American culture is so against multi-generational households. I understand that's not the what the article is about, but I don't see why there is such opposition to the idea of adult children staying in their parents home. In some cultures it's perfectly acceptable for the adult children to live with parents, but here it's considered evidence of some character flaw if someone fails to move out as soon as they become an adult.
Doubt it is often, I think the numbers of young people supporting their parents or grandparents is a relatively small almost nonexistent figure in the US, and probably elsewhere, with the exception being third world countries that allow 10 year olds to work for peanuts or nothing at all.....the notion of younger people supporting older people doesn't become more typical until into middle age group late 30s and on. And even then there is usually some mutual benefit like elders watching the little ones - but as you say not the topic here.
You say some, but I would say in most cultures is not only perfectly acceptable but also is more the norm than the exception. I think the history and experience in the US is based on individualism, exceptionalism and more than anything else independence. So when there evidence of that people are not living by these ideals it is viewed as weakness, laziness....nobody likes a mooch. The tragedy is that this sentiment/group is growing rapidly and is causing a decline in the US.
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If you have a good paying job and can save so much why are you still living at home? It doesn't sound like you have massive debt, based on you'd savings rate, so maybe it's time to move out of the basement.... My g/f still lives at home too but she also has massive student loan debt.
Why would you want to? As a parent if my kid was making $46K and saving $40K staying at home I can live with that. Making $4K or saving $4K not so much. Then it's tough love and a boot out the door.
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I have several friends who lived at home with their parents (even after they've had their own children) to save a huge chunk of change for a down payment on a house. We're talking engineers and lawyers, with great relationships with their parents. It's not *that* abnormal. I think the difference is they aren't moochers, emotionally manipulating their parents into giving them things they haven't earned.
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This is fairly common in Asian families; my wife and I lived in a house my parents paid the mortgage on, until I started my first full-time job at age 25. They paid for our down payment at that time also (got us a much lower interest rate than otherwise). If that threatened their retirement or financial stability, then we would've had to live in some dive apartment. I can't imagine risking their stability for us when we have at least 30 years of working ahead and they have ~5-10.
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I lived in southern Italy for several years. Was not uncommon for folks who lived around the city to own a huge sprawling house with several generations of family living in it. We're talking five to ten bedrooms in some cases. Basically the parents, their children and their grandparents.
Children back then (20+ years ago) faced high unemployment (25%+ for certain age groups) and stayed home rather than trying to move out. They'd find a job and save money. Some would help with the family bills, some wouldn't. Some could then afford a house of their own cash.
Same as here - a mix of approaches but it was all new to me at the time.
I come from the American version of grow up, move out, sign up for a mortgage and spend your adult life trying to achieve what your elders did - and you do it all with your own money. Whether you get a free education or not depends. ;)
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I have many "friends" like this, though I'm cutting them out of my life. It's hard to hang out with someone who is in their mid thirties and makes $15 an hour even after all the help their parents have given them, paying for cars, housing, school, weddings, etc.
Meanwhile I stood on my own two feet since 18, make 150K a year, own three houses, and have 500K NW. When the four of us hang out, I make more than all three of them combined. Sure, I'm not average, but they had ALL the advantages, while I had every disadvantage, and I still made it while they didn't. Over time, I've come to realize these people are dumb AND lazy, so I've decided to cut them out of my life lest I start to think like them.
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I had a feeling that by the time I got here, someone would have beaten me to posting a link to this story. Lo and behold, here it is!
I facepalmed so hard about 3 paragraphs in:
"...Her daughter, who is in her 20s, was not able to find a good-paying job and ended up moving in with her mother. That was just the beginning. Ms. Illiano co-signed for a leased car, repaid some of her daughter’s credit card debt and even paid for her nails, vacations and some clothes."
The cognitive dissonance was so bad I could barely finish the article. The good news is, since this young lady is only in her 20's, there is plenty of time to correct course. We all gotta start somewhere, right?
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I dated this girl "once upon a time". It seemed a bit serious there for a while.
We had dated before I went into the military. She had visited me overseas and that's when I wondered if she was the "one".
I had my own place (w/ roommates), my own money, we traveled all over the country for a couple of weeks. Went where we wanted to go, kept the hours we wanted to keep, etc. We talked about the future a little, etc. It was all so "grown up".
Near the end of my military time I visited her at her parents' home. This was within a year or so after her graduation and in the mid-90s. She "couldn't" find a job i.e. couldn't figure how to transition from being a kid to an adult I guess. I can't remember but don't think she worked those typical teenager jobs most of us work and thus didn't know how to manage a job. Parents paid for everything.
There was no hope of any privacy for us at her parents' house and perhaps there shouldn't be. She seemed to have reverted to a younger age - like she was 18 or something living in her old bedroom. No privacy for us. Sibling kept sneaking up on us. I get it. ;)
It was like dating a high school girl. The visit couldn't be anything else but dinner with the fam, a bit of TV, chatting and small talk.
In the end we had a couple of "fatal flaws" that ended it for us. For me it was her inability to make use of her education and start grown up life. The other was a lack of cooperation and communication between us. I could not imagine raising children or managing household spending with an inability to work together towards a common goal better than we were capable of then.
She is one of several people my age that I think of when I hear about millenials living at home and having trouble getting started in adult life. I'm Gen X, not a millenial. I think these choices to live at home and the inability to get career traction has been around for a long time but we are collectively paying more attention now.
In each case I can think of it was the "kid's" fault for accepting the endless help from the parents and the parents enabling the child's desire to remain on the family meal ticket. Perhaps the "kid" thinks this is normal. The parents didn't shove the kid out the door when they were a teen after telling them to turn off the TV and video games. Go find a job kid! They also paid for everything the kid wanted to do. "I wanted to give my child what I didn't have at their age". I think the old term was "spoiled" or a "bit tarnished".
MMM articles and the forum ought to be mandatory reading for high schoolers.
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Ugh. I couldn't even finish the article.
I feel like I need repeated face punches just for having my parents help me get loans during my divorce and custody fight (which also had plenty of moments that made me deserve face punches - why couldn't my ex and I just compromise instead on throwing money at lawyers...). The guilt of this much smaller thing (than the stuff in the article) is part of the motivation in my push towards a more mustachian way of life.