Author Topic: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?  (Read 5063 times)

JestJes

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Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« on: May 29, 2019, 07:23:19 AM »
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-get-young-people-to-save-for-the-future-when-they-think-the-planet-is-doomed-2019-05-23

This part really struck me. Imagine actual peanuts being your retirement plane
"Although she does not save money for retirement, Rodriguez does take action for the future: shes taught herself to garden (in case of a total collapse of the food system, she says) and invests in learning hands-on skills like mechanics and bike repair."

Sadly I have actually experienced this kind of thinking in my friend group. My teacher friend, who I have spoke about before, is leaving the profession. She will be cashing out her entire retirement regardless of the fees or taxes. When I asked her if she would be opening a IRA or something she gave me a very similar answer that she doesn't expect to be alive to retire.

Its crushingly sad as I remember her being so hopeful growing up.

RFAAOATB

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2019, 07:33:49 AM »
There are a lot of people that think the poor will get hurt the worst from global warming and climate change effects.  That should be motivation to save more so that you can adapt to changing circumstances.

In what ways would climate change be worse for someone who is rich compared to the poor?

dcheesi

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2019, 07:37:02 AM »
When my brother was working on a job cleaning up old military sites, several of the guys he worked with were interested in the "prepper" movement. Rather than saving up a nest egg, their idea of planning for the future involved buying farmland and installing survival bunkers, etc.

Apparently one guy decided to cash out his entire retirement fund to buy ammo --following the "guideline" that the truly prepared should have at least one bullet for every man, woman, and child in their compound's home county and all the counties surrounding it!?!!! All the better to defend oneself from the inevitable unprepared, hungry hordes to come...

JestJes

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2019, 07:50:29 AM »

one bullet for every man, woman, and child in their compound's home county and all the counties surrounding it!?!!!

This is truly terrifying.

Cool Friend

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2019, 09:38:31 AM »
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-get-young-people-to-save-for-the-future-when-they-think-the-planet-is-doomed-2019-05-23

This part really struck me. Imagine actual peanuts being your retirement plane
"Although she does not save money for retirement, Rodriguez does take action for the future: shes taught herself to garden (in case of a total collapse of the food system, she says) and invests in learning hands-on skills like mechanics and bike repair."


At least there's this, which is better than a lot of people:

Quote
Rodriguez carries no credit-card debt, faithfully pays the minimum on her student loans each month and has a credit score of 750. She also keeps six months of living costs in a savings account in case of emergency.

To be honest, I share her fatalism and struggle with this a lot. I don't have faith that meaningful changes will be made to avoid climate catastrophe, and since no meaningful changes were made to financial regulation after the 2008 crash, I don't have faith that that won't happen again either.  But aggressive saving still seems like the safest bet (safer than spending it all on consumer commodities, anyway) so I still do it.  So while I don't agree with Erin Lowry's comparison of climate change to Y2K, but I do agree with her quote in the closing paragraph.


ETA: fuck this article headline
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 09:40:41 AM by Cool Friend »

cloudsail

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2019, 10:21:39 AM »
To me, this is all the more reason to save hard and retire early. If the planet is doomed 50 years from now, would you rather work all those 50 years, or work and save for 10 years and do whatever you want for the next 40?

GuitarStv

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2019, 10:25:40 AM »
To be honest, I share her fatalism and struggle with this a lot. I don't have faith that meaningful changes will be made to avoid climate catastrophe, and since no meaningful changes were made to financial regulation after the 2008 crash, I don't have faith that that won't happen again either.  But aggressive saving still seems like the safest bet (safer than spending it all on consumer commodities, anyway) so I still do it.

+1

There has been no real indication whatsoever that the world is going to let off the gas pedal of the climate change bus . . . even though scientists keep telling us that the wall is coming up.

six-car-habit

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2019, 10:44:04 AM »
There are a lot of people that think the poor will get hurt the worst from global warming and climate change effects.  That should be motivation to save more so that you can adapt to changing circumstances.

In what ways would climate change be worse for someone who is rich compared to the poor?

If global warming is combined with societal breakdown, or rationing....

 - Rich not used to having limited food choices, nor going without a meal -
 - Rich not used to being to hot / too cold   [ Air-conditioning]
 - Rich not used to riding a bicycle [ big generalization here ] - if combustion engines are heavily restricted
 - Rich not used to electricity shutoffs - brownout / blackout - , no tv, no internet connection, no electronic security system
 - Rich not used to grueling manual labor [ see recent thread about house cleaning ]
 - Rich don't get house rebuilt under federal flood insurance [ eventually]
 
  I don't imagine any "3rd world " persons having much of an issue with any of these.....

six-car-habit

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2019, 10:48:38 AM »

one bullet for every man, woman, and child in their compound's home county and all the counties surrounding it!?!!!

This is truly terrifying.

 Ya gotta sleep sometime, and thats when the hordes will get them.

  But we can't restrict ammo sales 'cause --- 2nd Amendment !........ [ sarcasm ]

AMandM

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2019, 01:52:45 PM »
the truly prepared should have at least one bullet for every man, woman, and child in their compound's home county and all the counties surrounding it!?!!!

Gotta love the "at least." After all, you may miss on the first shot.

LennStar

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2019, 09:04:23 AM »
There are a lot of people that think the poor will get hurt the worst from global warming and climate change effects. 
That is true.
What most people in the US don't realize it that they don't count for poor.

Quote
that the truly prepared should have at least one bullet for every man, woman, and child in their compound's home county and all the counties surrounding it!?!!!
WOW! One man army? And everyone in 100 miles radius bands up on the single prepper there??
Prepper-Logik in it's best I guess :D

That is to say, owning a bit of fertile land and a house on it will never be a bad idea.

Quote
There has been no real indication whatsoever that the world is going to let off the gas pedal of the climate change bus
I am not that pessimistic, but the braking will be too slow I think. But don't worry, we rich countries will adapt. We will have real walls around our countries, 10m high with machine guns to hold off the millions of hungry people coming. We will grow our food in LED lit Aquaculture tanks and live in full-climatised buildings (looking like stadiums) that offer everything you need for daily life.

ProxyRetired

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2019, 10:55:18 AM »
I get this article as someone on the far end of the Millennium group (almost fall into the previous group). I don't agree with the lady in it that we shouldn't be saving. We could continue go insane on our saving rates and balloon our brokerage account; and we did, for the first several years of our careers. But now that we're kind of on "coast," we're shifting some of our income streams to more "family sustainability" projects. A homestead; building a big garden; canning; animal husbandry, etc. Learning the skills associated with all of that. Keep saving, keep building. Investments CAN be tangible too, not just a dollar amount on Vanguard. Personally, I believe we're in for some major shifts to our food supply system over the next few years. The cost of shipping a pepper from Spain, to here in the Midwest in February, simply isn't sustainable. One major oil crisis and our food supply is gonna get bumped hard.

Between the screams of warning from scientists about the climate, to the morons in the White House these days, there's a lot to be concerned about. But then again, there's always something to be concerned about (Hey.. remember the Civil War? That was a bad time... Iran oil issues? Bad time too.. Cold War? Woah!). There's always a boogeyman ready to strike; just gotta be prepared to deal with their impact on you.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 10:59:58 AM by ProxyRetired »

Montecarlo

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2019, 12:04:25 PM »
If the global ecology goes to shit a big brokerage account isn't going to save you.

Now, the skills you learned in order to do shit yourself instead of hiring someone, so you can put that money into a brokerage account - that'll definitely help.

I'm not a full on prepper, but as I grow my net worth I put consideration into having some resiliency towards extreme edge cases, like ecological collapse or solar flare.  It costs less than $3,000 for a brand new .22 rifle, 9mm handgun, a few cases of ammo, a couple 25 gallon drums, and a years supply of rice and beans.  And that's name brand, brand new, not even trying to be remotely frugal.

And properly stored, all that will last for decades

Point being, chances are the apocalypse isn't going to happen.  But to have basic contingency supplies is so cheap it's a no brainer if you got ER type wealth and your own home.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2019, 12:49:20 PM »
File this under the long list of excuses people make to justify the waste of their future...

The dollars value will eventually collapse
I play the lotto so its not like Im not trying
All investments are Ponzi schemes
I wont enjoy money as much when Im old
Zombies could be real, I saw one on TV
I probably wont live long enough to enjoy it (lights cigarette)
Having money would negatively affect my relationships with others
(Insert random conspiracy theory here)
By that times robots will work to meet all our needs
A lot of good your brokerage account will do during a nuclear war
I might inherit money from [middle class relative]
I have faith Jesus will rapture me before I need any savings


Aelias

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2019, 02:05:47 PM »
It's a classic "why not both?" scenario.

The question isn't should you save like crazy OR learn practical skills and build resiliency into your lifestyle.  Obviously, if you're living far enough beneath your means to be saving, you should try to do BOTH.  If you're closer to the edge, maybe you have to choose.

If you're under 40 or you have kids, I think you have to take a hard look at your current living situation and think about the most likely impacts of the climate crisis.  It feels really irresponsible not to.

So, we're currently at a 50% savings rate, but we're also: paying off a solar array we own and looking toward a battery backup system; just put in a wood burning fireplace insert; growing a big ass garden and working toward things like a winter garden and seed saving; planning to buy a solar oven and water filtration system; and (this is one I think is always overlooked) building a network of friends who also have useful skills and sharing experience and equipment with them.  Long term, we're looking at a second "vacation" property that has more land, good solar exposure, some woods, and plenty of water.

It's true that my kids can't eat a 401(k), but a healthy and diversified portfolio--even one that loses 90% of its value in a crash--will be super helpful in easing the bumps of a crisis.  I'd rather have 10% of something than 100% of nothing.  Particularly if I have some nice, paid off property to live on with a bunch of gardens.

Montecarlo

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2019, 04:48:55 PM »
It's a classic "why not both?" scenario.

The question isn't should you save like crazy OR learn practical skills and build resiliency into your lifestyle.  Obviously, if you're living far enough beneath your means to be saving, you should try to do BOTH.  If you're closer to the edge, maybe you have to choose.

If you're under 40 or you have kids, I think you have to take a hard look at your current living situation and think about the most likely impacts of the climate crisis.  It feels really irresponsible not to.

So, we're currently at a 50% savings rate, but we're also: paying off a solar array we own and looking toward a battery backup system; just put in a wood burning fireplace insert; growing a big ass garden and working toward things like a winter garden and seed saving; planning to buy a solar oven and water filtration system; and (this is one I think is always overlooked) building a network of friends who also have useful skills and sharing experience and equipment with them.  Long term, we're looking at a second "vacation" property that has more land, good solar exposure, some woods, and plenty of water.

It's true that my kids can't eat a 401(k), but a healthy and diversified portfolio--even one that loses 90% of its value in a crash--will be super helpful in easing the bumps of a crisis.  I'd rather have 10% of something than 100% of nothing.  Particularly if I have some nice, paid off property to live on with a bunch of gardens.

Crazy prepper alert!!!!

But really, +1

Aelias

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2019, 08:17:03 AM »
Shhhh!  Don't tell anybody we're crazy preppers! They'll want our raspberries during the apocalypse! ;)

Seriously though, our neighbors already think we're friendly but weird.  And watching the neighborhood kids sneak raspberries off our bushes as they walk by the house is one of my favorite parts of summer.


BTDretire

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2019, 12:32:23 PM »
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-get-young-people-to-save-for-the-future-when-they-think-the-planet-is-doomed-2019-05-23

This part really struck me. Imagine actual peanuts being your retirement plane
"Although she does not save money for retirement, Rodriguez does take action for the future: shes taught herself to garden (in case of a total collapse of the food system, she says) and invests in learning hands-on skills like mechanics and bike repair."

Sadly I have actually experienced this kind of thinking in my friend group. My teacher friend, who I have spoke about before, is leaving the profession. She will be cashing out her entire retirement regardless of the fees or taxes. When I asked her if she would be opening a IRA or something she gave me a very similar answer that she doesn't expect to be alive to retire.

Its crushingly sad as I remember her being so hopeful growing up.

  People will always come up with some justification for not saving for the future.
Back in the early 90's I had a coworker pulling and spending money from a retirement
program with a previous employer. I caution him against it, his response was that he's Italian,
and all of the men in his family die before they reach their 60's.
 I moved 1000 miles away 25 years ago and pretty much lost track, but I recently called
him, he's still alive at 66! He did mention that money was tight but he and his wife are doing
OK, even with a few health problems.
 I didn't mention that we had continued socking money away, have reached 2x FI and have retired
even if not real early.

marty998

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2019, 04:06:41 PM »
When my brother was working on a job cleaning up old military sites, several of the guys he worked with were interested in the "prepper" movement. Rather than saving up a nest egg, their idea of planning for the future involved buying farmland and installing survival bunkers, etc.

Apparently one guy decided to cash out his entire retirement fund to buy ammo --following the "guideline" that the truly prepared should have at least one bullet for every man, woman, and child in their compound's home county and all the counties surrounding it!?!!! All the better to defend oneself from the inevitable unprepared, hungry hordes to come...

Was the guideline advertised by a munitions manufacturing company by any chance?

scottish

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2019, 06:10:47 PM »
There are a lot of people that think the poor will get hurt the worst from global warming and climate change effects. 
That is true.
What most people in the US don't realize it that they don't count for poor.

Quote
that the truly prepared should have at least one bullet for every man, woman, and child in their compound's home county and all the counties surrounding it!?!!!
WOW! One man army? And everyone in 100 miles radius bands up on the single prepper there??
Prepper-Logik in it's best I guess :D

That is to say, owning a bit of fertile land and a house on it will never be a bad idea.

Quote
There has been no real indication whatsoever that the world is going to let off the gas pedal of the climate change bus
I am not that pessimistic, but the braking will be too slow I think. But don't worry, we rich countries will adapt. We will have real walls around our countries, 10m high with machine guns to hold off the millions of hungry people coming. We will grow our food in LED lit Aquaculture tanks and live in full-climatised buildings (looking like stadiums) that offer everything you need for daily life.

The newspapers are always full of doom and gloom.    Is there a best case scenario as well as the worst case scenario?

The impact of climate change could be much less than expected.    Predicting this stuff accurately is difficult.

The citizens of America could be so disgusted by the actions of Trump that they elect a good government.

EV and renewable energy technologies could reach a tipping point and rapidly displacement our carbon centric economy.

A vaccine for Lyme disease with a 99.9% effectiveness rate could be developing, eliminating the risk of the deer tick in eastern Ontario (and elsewhere).

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2019, 06:26:57 PM »
There is an argument that the political, economic and monetary system will not be able to survive climate change and resource depletion crises. We in the West like to forget that entire countries have collapsed and taken their banks with them, that savings have been wiped out by a legal act of government, and so on. It is quite possible to go to the ATM one day and find that your money no longer exists.

However, there's not much you can do to hedge against a complete collapse of a country or economic system, except to try to have useful skills. As more than one person has commented, if before a collapse you accumulate useful stuff people want to kill you for it, if you accumulate useful skills people want to keep you alive for them. The safest way is to do both!

Montecarlo

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2019, 08:03:13 PM »
I actually dont know what all the fuss is about global warming.  Its literally a self-correcting event.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-how-and-why-sex-differences/201111/how-avoid-population-overshoot-and-collapse

Check out the reindeer graph.  If that happens to the human race, carbon emissions will literally fix themselves.

QED.

SwordGuy

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2019, 08:55:35 PM »
Back in 1999 in Atlanta, a bunch of flyers went up in our neighborhood for a meeting to prepare for the coming year 2000 crisis.
(For those too young to know this, they were afraid that when the year 2000 rolled around, all the computer software that was written with 2 digit date fields would start acting weird.  People were afraid the economy would collapse, power plants would fail, etc.)

My across the street neighbor, Sid, was a retired Green Beret and he went to the meeting out of curiosity.   They had done all kinds of preparations for the coming societal collapse.  Stockpiled food, clothing, fuel, seeds, etc.

Sid tells them he's really impressed with all their preparations.  "But what are you doing about guns?"

"Oh, we don't believe in guns," was the reply.

Sid sat up with an excited look on his face.  "Oh, that's great!!!   That means I don't have to get any of this stuff, I can just take yours if I need it!"

Those folks just "thought" that the rest of the people in the area would just politely starve to death.


Any way, true story. 

six-car-habit

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2019, 09:32:33 PM »
Back in 1999 in Atlanta, a bunch of flyers went up in our neighborhood for a meeting to prepare for the coming year 2000 crisis.
(For those too young to know this, they were afraid that when the year 2000 rolled around, all the computer software that was written with 2 digit date fields would start acting weird.  People were afraid the economy would collapse, power plants would fail, etc.)

My across the street neighbor, Sid, was a retired Green Beret and he went to the meeting out of curiosity.   They had done all kinds of preparations for the coming societal collapse.  Stockpiled food, clothing, fuel, seeds, etc.

Sid tells them he's really impressed with all their preparations.  "But what are you doing about guns?"

"Oh, we don't believe in guns," was the reply.

Sid sat up with an excited look on his face.  "Oh, that's great!!!   That means I don't have to get any of this stuff, I can just take yours if I need it!"

Those folks just "thought" that the rest of the people in the area would just politely starve to death.


Any way, true story.

 Time to focus the neighborhood watch on Sid's house..... he'll leave sooner or later, than, Bam , brick thru the window, back up the pickup truck and load up the gun safe, figure out how to open it later....

  I worked at a Power plant at that time. Got 4 hours overtime- 11pm till 3am on December 31st/ Jan 1st - when they figured out nothing crashed and the machinery / electrics were fine , they sent me and the other dude home. Probably spent the $$ on some car part... [ cue the wah-wah-waaah noise]

GuitarStv

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2019, 07:43:28 AM »
Quote
There has been no real indication whatsoever that the world is going to let off the gas pedal of the climate change bus
I am not that pessimistic, but the braking will be too slow I think. But don't worry, we rich countries will adapt. We will have real walls around our countries, 10m high with machine guns to hold off the millions of hungry people coming. We will grow our food in LED lit Aquaculture tanks and live in full-climatised buildings (looking like stadiums) that offer everything you need for daily life.

The newspapers are always full of doom and gloom.    Is there a best case scenario as well as the worst case scenario?

The impact of climate change could be much less than expected.    Predicting this stuff accurately is difficult.

The citizens of America could be so disgusted by the actions of Trump that they elect a good government.

EV and renewable energy technologies could reach a tipping point and rapidly displacement our carbon centric economy.

A vaccine for Lyme disease with a 99.9% effectiveness rate could be developing, eliminating the risk of the deer tick in eastern Ontario (and elsewhere).
[/quote]

This is some pretty odd logic to be using.  Let's apply the exact same approach to something different and see how it works out.  How about . . . hmm . . . saving for retirement for example, which most of us see as a no brainer (and which any expert in retirement planning will tell you is necessary to avoid serious problems later in life) for example:

The newspapers are always full of doom and gloom.    Is there a best case scenario as well as the worst case scenario?

Food and shelter might be free in the future.    Predicting the future accurately is difficult.

The citizens of America could be so disgusted by the plight of poor people that they enact sweeping socialist changes and all agree to look after everyone.

You never know if you'll inherit a large sum of money, stumble across the world's biggest diamond while gardening in your back yard, or win the lottery.

New technologies could reach a tipping point and rapidly displacement the need to work in our economy.  In a no money economy, people who have squirreled away cash would look foolish.

People are already talking about UBI.  A high enough UBI rate would mean that anyone who wanted to retire right now, could.  You would look pretty stupid if the day you had saved up enough to FIRE UBI that allowed you to retire anyway came into effect.


Every statement above, is as true as every statement that you made.  But do you encourage people to save for retirement?  Are you saving for retirement?  Of course you are.  It's nice to fantasize about low percentage best case possible scenarios for the future.  It's not good practice to count on them in your planning though.

scottish

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2019, 03:36:24 PM »
You're picking examples that are both unlikely and that are easy (for definitions of easy) for an individual to do something about!

I was picking examples that are at least a little bit less unlikely and that are hard for an individual to do something about...


msministache

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2019, 09:45:26 AM »
Posting to follow

GuitarStv

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2019, 10:26:34 AM »
You're picking examples that are both unlikely and that are easy (for definitions of easy) for an individual to do something about!

I was picking examples that are at least a little bit less unlikely and that are hard for an individual to do something about...

Your examples are easy for an individual to do something about.  Buy less.  Drive less.  Eat less meat.  None of that is hard, and all of it is of benefit.

Can you explain why you believe that the examples you provided are 'less unlikely'?

scottish

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2019, 03:51:11 PM »
Ok, how about we compare:

The citizens of America could be so disgusted by the actions of Trump that they elect a good government.

to:

The citizens of America could be so disgusted by the plight of poor people that they enact sweeping socialist changes and all agree to look after everyone.

All our cousins south of the border have to do to replace Trump is get out and vote next year.

To enact sweeping socialist changes (such as medicare for all?) they have to get a majority of the house and the senate to agree on the changes and they also need a president that won't veto them.    i.e.  they have to get rid of Trump.

The first one requires voting the orange guy out of office.    The second one requires voting the orange guy out of office + a bunch of other hard stuff.

Therefore the second one is harder.


Anyway, I wasn't trying to be facile.    My point was that the news is always full of negative stories, it would be nice to see some positive stories.   There's lots of good stuff going on in the world today, it just doesn't make the news.

Sibley

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2019, 12:24:48 PM »
Ok, how about we compare:

The citizens of America could be so disgusted by the actions of Trump that they elect a good government.

to:

The citizens of America could be so disgusted by the plight of poor people that they enact sweeping socialist changes and all agree to look after everyone.

All our cousins south of the border have to do to replace Trump is get out and vote next year.

To enact sweeping socialist changes (such as medicare for all?) they have to get a majority of the house and the senate to agree on the changes and they also need a president that won't veto them.    i.e.  they have to get rid of Trump.

The first one requires voting the orange guy out of office.    The second one requires voting the orange guy out of office + a bunch of other hard stuff.

Therefore the second one is harder.


Anyway, I wasn't trying to be facile.    My point was that the news is always full of negative stories, it would be nice to see some positive stories.   There's lots of good stuff going on in the world today, it just doesn't make the news.

As a cousin to the south, I wouldn't count on anything like rational behavior out of the USA for a while. We don't seem to have gotten the stupid out of our collective system yet.

Abe

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2019, 11:47:29 PM »
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-get-young-people-to-save-for-the-future-when-they-think-the-planet-is-doomed-2019-05-23

This part really struck me. Imagine actual peanuts being your retirement plane
"Although she does not save money for retirement, Rodriguez does take action for the future: shes taught herself to garden (in case of a total collapse of the food system, she says) and invests in learning hands-on skills like mechanics and bike repair."

Sadly I have actually experienced this kind of thinking in my friend group. My teacher friend, who I have spoke about before, is leaving the profession. She will be cashing out her entire retirement regardless of the fees or taxes. When I asked her if she would be opening a IRA or something she gave me a very similar answer that she doesn't expect to be alive to retire.

Its crushingly sad as I remember her being so hopeful growing up.

Is your friend assuming she will starve to death or be shot before reaching retirement age (whatever she believes it would have been)? While I agree the world we will have in 30 years will be much different from now, I think it's unlikely that mass famine will destroy the US' government/financial (same thing) system by then. Unless she's planning to move to a less fortunate country in "solidarity" and die in their famine while part of a humanitarian relief effort?

Linea_Norway

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2019, 06:41:38 AM »
We are still saving for retirement/FIRE, because we think we have some decades left before the shit hits the fan. I personally think the world will turn into an apocalypse scenario and our present way of living in first world countries will stop to exist. DH and I both have some survival skills (building, bicycle repair, sewing, fishing, finding edible plants) and I would like to learn a lot of this stuff just because it is fun. But I also think that the masses who don't have a vegetable garden will come (with guns) to those who have something. And I don't want to live in a fortress.

DH and I recently discussed this. I think I would not like to continue to live during a real apocalypse with raging bands. I don't believe in wapening myself with lots of ammo. DH thinks that a person who is capable of living in the woods and surviving as a moving hunter/gatherer might survive best. But for gathering, you really need to work the whole year, to find to right species that grow in that time of the year, and then preserve it. And maybe living in a northern climate is not the smartest thing to do. So turning into this type of person might not be very realtistic for us.

To not become deeply depressed by thinking about the world as we know it coming to an end, I try to focus on the immediate decades that we might have left (2, 3, 4??) before the chaos starts. I hope to spend most of them being FIREd (from next year). And we do keep in mind that it might not happen at all. After all, we could suddenly invent nuclear fusion on big scale and solve our energy challenges. DH thinks we should should put the greatest minds in the world to work together on inventing nuclear fusion with the urgency that we had to put people on the moon for the first time, or developing the atom bombto end WW2.

Apart from climate changes there are also challenges in the form of multi resistant bacteria, going empty for phosphorus (used in fertilizer), in general shortage of food in the world, salination of ground water. Just to name a few.

About the Y2K challenge. I have understood that nothing happened, because lots of companies owning critical systems, changed their data systems on time. And our coffee machines and bread toasters weren't so data dependent after all.

PDXTabs

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2019, 03:03:59 PM »
We are still saving for retirement/FIRE, because we think we have some decades left before the shit hits the fan.

Me too. I figure we have ~30 more years. Also, some extra money can't hurt!

I personally think the world will turn into an apocalypse scenario and our present way of living in first world countries will stop to exist. DH and I both have some survival skills (building, bicycle repair, sewing, fishing, finding edible plants) and I would like to learn a lot of this stuff just because it is fun. But I also think that the masses who don't have a vegetable garden will come (with guns) to those who have something. And I don't want to live in a fortress.

DH and I recently discussed this. I think I would not like to continue to live during a real apocalypse with raging bands.

Do you really think that Norway will become a lawless place full of violent roving gangs? I think that you are being a bit too pessimistic. Maybe Africa, maybe most of the Americas, but I wouldn't bet on Norway in your lifetime.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 03:25:55 PM by PDXTabs »

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2019, 07:46:38 PM »
We are still saving for retirement/FIRE, because we think we have some decades left before the shit hits the fan.

Me too. I figure we have ~30 more years. Also, some extra money can't hurt!

I personally think the world will turn into an apocalypse scenario and our present way of living in first world countries will stop to exist. DH and I both have some survival skills (building, bicycle repair, sewing, fishing, finding edible plants) and I would like to learn a lot of this stuff just because it is fun. But I also think that the masses who don't have a vegetable garden will come (with guns) to those who have something. And I don't want to live in a fortress.

DH and I recently discussed this. I think I would not like to continue to live during a real apocalypse with raging bands.

Do you really think that Norway will become a lawless place full of violent roving gangs? I think that you are being a bit too pessimistic. Maybe Africa, maybe most of the Americas, but I wouldn't bet on Norway in your lifetime.

The Viking raids were generally against tribes in other lands, were they not?

Linea_Norway

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2019, 07:25:33 AM »
We are still saving for retirement/FIRE, because we think we have some decades left before the shit hits the fan.

Me too. I figure we have ~30 more years. Also, some extra money can't hurt!

I personally think the world will turn into an apocalypse scenario and our present way of living in first world countries will stop to exist. DH and I both have some survival skills (building, bicycle repair, sewing, fishing, finding edible plants) and I would like to learn a lot of this stuff just because it is fun. But I also think that the masses who don't have a vegetable garden will come (with guns) to those who have something. And I don't want to live in a fortress.

DH and I recently discussed this. I think I would not like to continue to live during a real apocalypse with raging bands.

Do you really think that Norway will become a lawless place full of violent roving gangs? I think that you are being a bit too pessimistic. Maybe Africa, maybe most of the Americas, but I wouldn't bet on Norway in your lifetime.

The Viking raids were generally against tribes in other lands, were they not?

Yes, vikings from Norway, Sweden and Denmark raided England, overtook Iceland, went to America and Greenland.

I think the places that still have something will get raided. Norway has reasonably clean drinking water. Africa will become really hot. I could imagine some mass migration northward.

Maybe I am too pessimistic. But I don't worry about it all the time. I think we have some decades, left before it stsrts. We'll see how it goes. I won't be prepping my basement with tins of food.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2019, 07:35:19 AM »
We are still saving for retirement/FIRE, because we think we have some decades left before the shit hits the fan.

Me too. I figure we have ~30 more years. Also, some extra money can't hurt!

I personally think the world will turn into an apocalypse scenario and our present way of living in first world countries will stop to exist. DH and I both have some survival skills (building, bicycle repair, sewing, fishing, finding edible plants) and I would like to learn a lot of this stuff just because it is fun. But I also think that the masses who don't have a vegetable garden will come (with guns) to those who have something. And I don't want to live in a fortress.

DH and I recently discussed this. I think I would not like to continue to live during a real apocalypse with raging bands.

Do you really think that Norway will become a lawless place full of violent roving gangs? I think that you are being a bit too pessimistic. Maybe Africa, maybe most of the Americas, but I wouldn't bet on Norway in your lifetime.

The Viking raids were generally against tribes in other lands, were they not?

Yes, vikings from Norway, Sweden and Denmark raided England, overtook Iceland, went to America and Greenland.

I think the places that still have something will get raided. Norway has reasonably clean drinking water. Africa will become really hot. I could imagine some mass migration northward.

Maybe I am too pessimistic. But I don't worry about it all the time. I think we have some decades, left before it stsrts. We'll see how it goes. I won't be prepping my basement with tins of food.

Russia too: Rurik, from the Rus tribe, founded a city at Novgorod and it eventually became the nation of Russia. That's why I still see similarities between Old English and modern Russian. It's also why, if you go to places like Moscow or St. Petersburg, most of the people who come from wealthier old families have pointy noses rather than the standard Slavic look.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2019, 07:45:38 AM »
We are still saving for retirement/FIRE, because we think we have some decades left before the shit hits the fan.

Me too. I figure we have ~30 more years. Also, some extra money can't hurt!

I personally think the world will turn into an apocalypse scenario and our present way of living in first world countries will stop to exist. DH and I both have some survival skills (building, bicycle repair, sewing, fishing, finding edible plants) and I would like to learn a lot of this stuff just because it is fun. But I also think that the masses who don't have a vegetable garden will come (with guns) to those who have something. And I don't want to live in a fortress.

DH and I recently discussed this. I think I would not like to continue to live during a real apocalypse with raging bands.

Do you really think that Norway will become a lawless place full of violent roving gangs? I think that you are being a bit too pessimistic. Maybe Africa, maybe most of the Americas, but I wouldn't bet on Norway in your lifetime.

The Viking raids were generally against tribes in other lands, were they not?

Yes, vikings from Norway, Sweden and Denmark raided England, overtook Iceland, went to America and Greenland.

I think the places that still have something will get raided. Norway has reasonably clean drinking water. Africa will become really hot. I could imagine some mass migration northward.

Maybe I am too pessimistic. But I don't worry about it all the time. I think we have some decades, left before it stsrts. We'll see how it goes. I won't be prepping my basement with tins of food.

Russia too: Rurik, from the Rus tribe, founded a city at Novgorod and it eventually became the nation of Russia. That's why I still see similarities between Old English and modern Russian. It's also why, if you go to places like Moscow or St. Petersburg, most of the people who come from wealthier old families have pointy noses rather than the standard Slavic look.

About migrating refugees... During the crisis in Syria, lots of refugees came to Norway, entering through the northern border via Russia, on a bicycle in the winter. And that area is freezing cold in the winter. Therefore I cannot imagine that Norway would not be affected by mass migrations in the world.

It is interesting, those migration patterns from the distant  past

PDXTabs

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2019, 10:44:23 AM »
About migrating refugees... During the crisis in Syria, lots of refugees came to Norway, entering through the northern border via Russia, on a bicycle in the winter. And that area is freezing cold in the winter. Therefore I cannot imagine that Norway would not be affected by mass migrations in the world.

And what happened to them and to Norwegian society? I'm not saying that it will be easy. I'm not saying that their won't be failed states. I'm just saying that I am unconvinced that Norwegian society will collapse during your (or my) lifetime.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2019, 01:45:41 PM »
About migrating refugees... During the crisis in Syria, lots of refugees came to Norway, entering through the northern border via Russia, on a bicycle in the winter. And that area is freezing cold in the winter. Therefore I cannot imagine that Norway would not be affected by mass migrations in the world.

And what happened to them and to Norwegian society? I'm not saying that it will be easy. I'm not saying that their won't be failed states. I'm just saying that I am unconvinced that Norwegian society will collapse during your (or my) lifetime.

What happened to them is that many who were real refugees were put in a normal refugee receival place. Some of them got to stay. But there came many others as well, not from Syria. Some of them were sent back.

OvertheRainbow

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2019, 07:58:25 PM »
We are still saving for retirement/FIRE, because we think we have some decades left before the shit hits the fan.

Me too. I figure we have ~30 more years. Also, some extra money can't hurt!

I personally think the world will turn into an apocalypse scenario and our present way of living in first world countries will stop to exist. DH and I both have some survival skills (building, bicycle repair, sewing, fishing, finding edible plants) and I would like to learn a lot of this stuff just because it is fun. But I also think that the masses who don't have a vegetable garden will come (with guns) to those who have something. And I don't want to live in a fortress.

DH and I recently discussed this. I think I would not like to continue to live during a real apocalypse with raging bands.

Do you really think that Norway will become a lawless place full of violent roving gangs? I think that you are being a bit too pessimistic. Maybe Africa, maybe most of the Americas, but I wouldn't bet on Norway in your lifetime.
Wow...such racism in this post. First, dear, Africa is a continent, not a country. There are dozens and dozens of countries with hundreds of tribes, and thousands of years of pre-European history.

Second off, you seem to forget that your Norwegians come from some brutal stock. The Vikings were ruthless, violent and barbaric.To think Norway is somehow above primitive, survival behavior is laughable.

Shame on you.

JTColton

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2019, 11:57:27 AM »
Wow...such racism in this post. First, dear, Africa is a continent, not a country. There are dozens and dozens of countries with hundreds of tribes, and thousands of years of pre-European history.

Second off, you seem to forget that your Norwegians come from some brutal stock. The Vikings were ruthless, violent and barbaric.To think Norway is somehow above primitive, survival behavior is laughable.

Shame on you.

Continent, country pre or post European history is a pointless distinction in this case. Now even in normal times Africa is a dangerous place full of...roving gangs, genocide, brigandage, and animals that will kill your ass. When many of the world's social power structures (government, finance, commerce) are dysfunctional and the aid and loans dry up it will be orders of magnitude worse.

I don't think that anyone, in extremis, is above primitive -aka violent- survival behavior.

PDXTabs

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2019, 12:06:58 PM »
Wow...such racism in this post. First, dear, Africa is a continent, not a country. There are dozens and dozens of countries with hundreds of tribes, and thousands of years of pre-European history.

I also compared Norway to the Americas (two continents) where I live and have very little faith in our institutions to protect us. As a US Citizen I would bet on Norway before the US. EDITed at add: and my list of Africa and the Americas is not all inclusive, I'm sure that parts of Europe (including parts that I love) will struggle - not to mention Asia, Oceania, and islands everywhere.

Second off, you seem to forget that your Norwegians come from some brutal stock. The Vikings were ruthless, violent and barbaric.To think Norway is somehow above primitive, survival behavior is laughable.

I don't believe that I ever said that Norway would survive because of their genetic stock. I believe that they will survive for three reasons:



Also, to be clear, I never said that they wouldn't brutalize outsiders to maintain order inside of Norway.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 03:33:47 PM by PDXTabs »

Linea_Norway

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Re: Not Saving for Retirement Because of Global Warming?
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2019, 01:40:26 PM »
In Norway there are lots of wapons in people's homes, for hunting or for defending the country (people who are supposed to be the first defenders, have their military wapon stored at home). So I think any gangs could be formed locally by Norwegian people.

Apart from the gangs, I think there will be mass migrations in the world, amongst others from Africa where it become too hot to live, and from places that will stand under water or that will lack drinking water. That will cause a lot of chaos, but I did not connect them with wapons or gangs. I think they will come as refugees. Also to Norway.

I do think that Norway will be able to buy itself out of some trouble for some time (like buying food in times of scarcity), but not forever.