Author Topic: No, I won't buy into your MLM  (Read 172433 times)

Travis

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #700 on: January 10, 2018, 09:58:04 AM »
"Partner" is a euphemism for publicly recognizing their business doesn't really exist and they're just a customer of the parent company themselves.

I thought 'partner' was their way of trying to reconcile their self employed, own business, #bossbabe posts with 'I'm a non-minimum-wage-guaranteed sales rep for X company's tat'

I'm sure that's what she thinks it means.  My definition is just reality after the smoke and mirrors are cleared away.
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infogoon

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #701 on: January 12, 2018, 01:08:25 PM »
holy goddamn shitsnacks the essential oil voodoo nonsense is taking over my newsfeed

Apple_Tango

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #702 on: January 12, 2018, 01:28:46 PM »
"Partner" is a euphemism for publicly recognizing their business doesn't really exist and they're just a customer of the parent company themselves.

I thought 'partner' was their way of trying to reconcile their self employed, own business, #bossbabe posts with 'I'm a non-minimum-wage-guaranteed sales rep for X company's tat'

I'm sure that's what she thinks it means.  My definition is just reality after the smoke and mirrors are cleared away.

They’re basically trying to equate the business model to a franchise, where you actually buy a business or a business model and get the name recognition of the large company. But there is a big difference between a owning a Subway and stockpiling leggings in your garage.
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Pioneerw2b

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #703 on: January 12, 2018, 01:57:26 PM »
I'm afraid I'm being drawn into another MLM.  I'm facebook friends with a girl I went to grad school with and even though we haven't seen each other in person in the last few years, we still comment on each other's facebook stuff.  She messaged me last night and asked how I've been, and that she saw I finally moved back closer to her.  She said that we need to get coffee and catch up and I said sure, that sounds great.  Then I got a spidey-sense that this interaction seemed suspiciously like an MLM.  I went to her page and saw for the past few days she has been posting her normal craft pictures (she makes all kinds of quilted things and baby clothes to sell on her etsy page) but they all have these doterra essential oils in the pictures as well.  Yup, I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a sales pitch instead of catching up.  I went to her blog and there is a tab at the top now for "essential oils" and it is definitely an MLM.  Ugh.


I was recently introduced to one of my husband's CW's wife. We really hit it off and exchanged numbers. A few days later I get a text about how she is having a little "get-together" at her salon to discuss some great new products she know I would be interested in. (we had talked about make-up, skin care, etc.. when had met). My "spidey senses tingled" as well and I said I couldn't make it. I got another text a few days ago about how they were having friends over and wanted to know if I could come and hear about some great new products from Melaleuca. I googled it and sure enough it is what I thought it was...supplements, healthcare and home products. I politely told her that I am pretty set in my ways of what I buy for myself and for my home and no thanks but would like to do lunch sometime. She came back with "Oh, I thought you would like to see how you could improve on what you already do"..... um thanks but no thanks. I haven't heard back. I like her but I am not getting sucked in to that stuff. MY time is precious and I am not going to listen about something I have no interest in.

englishteacheralex

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #704 on: January 12, 2018, 02:05:08 PM »
See, the exchange you just explained between you and your husband's CW's wife is a tragedy of our age, in my opinion, @Pioneerw2b.

What in the world is happening to people? When did it become appropriate to co-opt friendship into a business opportunity? Even worse, a horrible, exploitative one that doesn't even work (let's just call it what it is: a SCAM).

Here's a perfectly good budding friendship between two women that could grow into something that would be mutually beneficial to both parties. You enjoy each other's company, and maybe slowly but surely develop into a relationship where you're helping each other out, having each other over for get-togethers, exchanging recipes...one of you has some kind of crisis, the other one is there for you...you know, all the lovely, selfless things that FRIENDSHIPS used to be for.

And this woman totally isolates herself from any of that good stuff by making a budding friendship all about yet another MLM scam. It's bad for society. Now you're going to (rightfully) avoid her and never get to know her, and the husbands are going to feel a little awkward about it at work. It's a crying shame and I hate those companies for ruining the building block of community: friendship.
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Travis

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #705 on: January 12, 2018, 02:23:10 PM »
I'm afraid I'm being drawn into another MLM.  I'm facebook friends with a girl I went to grad school with and even though we haven't seen each other in person in the last few years, we still comment on each other's facebook stuff.  She messaged me last night and asked how I've been, and that she saw I finally moved back closer to her.  She said that we need to get coffee and catch up and I said sure, that sounds great.  Then I got a spidey-sense that this interaction seemed suspiciously like an MLM.  I went to her page and saw for the past few days she has been posting her normal craft pictures (she makes all kinds of quilted things and baby clothes to sell on her etsy page) but they all have these doterra essential oils in the pictures as well.  Yup, I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a sales pitch instead of catching up.  I went to her blog and there is a tab at the top now for "essential oils" and it is definitely an MLM.  Ugh.


I was recently introduced to one of my husband's CW's wife. We really hit it off and exchanged numbers. A few days later I get a text about how she is having a little "get-together" at her salon to discuss some great new products she know I would be interested in. (we had talked about make-up, skin care, etc.. when had met). My "spidey senses tingled" as well and I said I couldn't make it. I got another text a few days ago about how they were having friends over and wanted to know if I could come and hear about some great new products from Melaleuca. I googled it and sure enough it is what I thought it was...supplements, healthcare and home products. I politely told her that I am pretty set in my ways of what I buy for myself and for my home and no thanks but would like to do lunch sometime. She came back with "Oh, I thought you would like to see how you could improve on what you already do"..... um thanks but no thanks. I haven't heard back. I like her but I am not getting sucked in to that stuff. MY time is precious and I am not going to listen about something I have no interest in.

It's amazing how most MLMs don't come with salesmanship training in their starter kits.  I don't think I've ever known an MLM seller to actually build a relationship before going in for the kill.  Especially with Facebook, it goes from "friend me" to "buy my shit so I can pretend to make your life better" in the space of minutes.  Aside from it being antisocial and rude, it reeks of desperation.
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TheWifeHalf

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #706 on: January 12, 2018, 04:56:27 PM »
My Mom sold Avon wen I was in high school for a couple of years. I think it was just to get stuff cheap.  I still buy their lip balm online, when it's 99 cents, free shipping, usually buy 50 -100 at a time

I credit that time for introducing me to good skin care, though I may not buy just Avon now.

Astatine

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #707 on: January 12, 2018, 05:12:33 PM »
PTF out of morbid curiousity.

I'm ok with going to the occasional Tupperware party (I find the quality to be BIFL and we use it all the time). But am ambivalent about the rest. I haven't been friended just to sell MLM to luckily. There are a few makeup and Jamberry consultants in my broader social circles. They're usually pretty good about it and don't sacrifice friendships for their MLM.

kina

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #708 on: January 12, 2018, 06:57:06 PM »
See, the exchange you just explained between you and your husband's CW's wife is a tragedy of our age, in my opinion, @Pioneerw2b.

What in the world is happening to people? When did it become appropriate to co-opt friendship into a business opportunity? Even worse, a horrible, exploitative one that doesn't even work (let's just call it what it is: a SCAM).

Here's a perfectly good budding friendship between two women that could grow into something that would be mutually beneficial to both parties. You enjoy each other's company, and maybe slowly but surely develop into a relationship where you're helping each other out, having each other over for get-togethers, exchanging recipes...one of you has some kind of crisis, the other one is there for you...you know, all the lovely, selfless things that FRIENDSHIPS used to be for.

And this woman totally isolates herself from any of that good stuff by making a budding friendship all about yet another MLM scam. It's bad for society. Now you're going to (rightfully) avoid her and never get to know her, and the husbands are going to feel a little awkward about it at work. It's a crying shame and I hate those companies for ruining the building block of community: friendship.

Quoting so I won't have to search to find it again. This needs to be repeated everywhere.

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #709 on: January 12, 2018, 08:16:30 PM »
See, the exchange you just explained between you and your husband's CW's wife is a tragedy of our age, in my opinion, @Pioneerw2b.

What in the world is happening to people? When did it become appropriate to co-opt friendship into a business opportunity? Even worse, a horrible, exploitative one that doesn't even work (let's just call it what it is: a SCAM).

Here's a perfectly good budding friendship between two women that could grow into something that would be mutually beneficial to both parties. You enjoy each other's company, and maybe slowly but surely develop into a relationship where you're helping each other out, having each other over for get-togethers, exchanging recipes...one of you has some kind of crisis, the other one is there for you...you know, all the lovely, selfless things that FRIENDSHIPS used to be for.

And this woman totally isolates herself from any of that good stuff by making a budding friendship all about yet another MLM scam. It's bad for society. Now you're going to (rightfully) avoid her and never get to know her, and the husbands are going to feel a little awkward about it at work. It's a crying shame and I hate those companies for ruining the building block of community: friendship.

They promote the notion that "financial good for me" is far better than "long-term emotional good for both of us".

In order to be successful at MLM, people either have to either buy into that way of thinking, or sell a flaming metric ton of product because they have vast frienships networks where it's a relatively new, untapped market and where people actualy think the products are cool and want to buy them. The latter situation is extremely rare.
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englishteacheralex

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #710 on: January 12, 2018, 10:18:21 PM »
Warning: about to derail this thread.

See, the exchange you just explained between you and your husband's CW's wife is a tragedy of our age, in my opinion, @Pioneerw2b.

What in the world is happening to people? When did it become appropriate to co-opt friendship into a business opportunity? Even worse, a horrible, exploitative one that doesn't even work (let's just call it what it is: a SCAM).

Here's a perfectly good budding friendship between two women that could grow into something that would be mutually beneficial to both parties. You enjoy each other's company, and maybe slowly but surely develop into a relationship where you're helping each other out, having each other over for get-togethers, exchanging recipes...one of you has some kind of crisis, the other one is there for you...you know, all the lovely, selfless things that FRIENDSHIPS used to be for.

And this woman totally isolates herself from any of that good stuff by making a budding friendship all about yet another MLM scam. It's bad for society. Now you're going to (rightfully) avoid her and never get to know her, and the husbands are going to feel a little awkward about it at work. It's a crying shame and I hate those companies for ruining the building block of community: friendship.

They promote the notion that "financial good for me" is far better than "long-term emotional good for both of us".

In order to be successful at MLM, people either have to either buy into that way of thinking, or sell a flaming metric ton of product because they have vast frienships networks where it's a relatively new, untapped market and where people actualy think the products are cool and want to buy them. The latter situation is extremely rare.

"Financial good for me is far better than long-term emotional good for both of us" is utterly ridiculous logic. Not that you are arguing for that, @TheGrimSqueaker, but I'm getting a little wound up about the horribly misguided thinking that the statement represents on the part of MLM people.

Here's what they don't understand: good long-term friendships actually have enormous economic value. It's crass to think of friendship in economic terms, but it's the truth. A good network of friends has helped me out of so many jams and done me so many favors. I've done the same for them, of course. When I had my first baby, at least fifteen people brought us meals over a two month period. Same for my second. We swap babysitting with friends. Potluck meals all the time. Mental health in the form of feeling like there are people close by who know me and care about me. Our kids play together...

To trade all that in order to try to recruit a bunch of suckers to be your "downline" while you ostensibly sell them a couple of shrink wrap nails or some face cream ...it completely blows my mind. It's awful. How are people that dumb?
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TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #711 on: January 12, 2018, 10:47:38 PM »
Warning: about to derail this thread.

See, the exchange you just explained between you and your husband's CW's wife is a tragedy of our age, in my opinion, @Pioneerw2b.

What in the world is happening to people? When did it become appropriate to co-opt friendship into a business opportunity? Even worse, a horrible, exploitative one that doesn't even work (let's just call it what it is: a SCAM).

Here's a perfectly good budding friendship between two women that could grow into something that would be mutually beneficial to both parties. You enjoy each other's company, and maybe slowly but surely develop into a relationship where you're helping each other out, having each other over for get-togethers, exchanging recipes...one of you has some kind of crisis, the other one is there for you...you know, all the lovely, selfless things that FRIENDSHIPS used to be for.

And this woman totally isolates herself from any of that good stuff by making a budding friendship all about yet another MLM scam. It's bad for society. Now you're going to (rightfully) avoid her and never get to know her, and the husbands are going to feel a little awkward about it at work. It's a crying shame and I hate those companies for ruining the building block of community: friendship.

They promote the notion that "financial good for me" is far better than "long-term emotional good for both of us".

In order to be successful at MLM, people either have to either buy into that way of thinking, or sell a flaming metric ton of product because they have vast frienships networks where it's a relatively new, untapped market and where people actualy think the products are cool and want to buy them. The latter situation is extremely rare.

"Financial good for me is far better than long-term emotional good for both of us" is utterly ridiculous logic. Not that you are arguing for that, @TheGrimSqueaker, but I'm getting a little wound up about the horribly misguided thinking that the statement represents on the part of MLM people.

Here's what they don't understand: good long-term friendships actually have enormous economic value. It's crass to think of friendship in economic terms, but it's the truth. A good network of friends has helped me out of so many jams and done me so many favors. I've done the same for them, of course. When I had my first baby, at least fifteen people brought us meals over a two month period. Same for my second. We swap babysitting with friends. Potluck meals all the time. Mental health in the form of feeling like there are people close by who know me and care about me. Our kids play together...

To trade all that in order to try to recruit a bunch of suckers to be your "downline" while you ostensibly sell them a couple of shrink wrap nails or some face cream ...it completely blows my mind. It's awful. How are people that dumb?

People are that dumb because they have a lower level of maturity and social awareness. They also don't understand social capital.

The interdependence you so eloquently describe is possible only in a community of people who share, take turns, and give to one another knowing that, in their time of need, they will be similarly taken care of. You and your friends have enormous social capital with one another and a great deal of trust and respect. Yet it didn't develop overnight. A new person joining your network will most likely be welcomed, but will not necessarily be given to at the same level as someone such as yourself without proving his or her willingness to contribute.

Babies and small children begin in a state of dependence: "feed me!" is how they operate because they aren't yet able to fend for themselves. As a child ages, they become more independent and seek to feed themselves. But a still higher level of human development comes when people realize-- as you and your friends have done-- that they gain more by cooperating with reliable members of their community than they do by going it alone. And yes, you're completely right about the goods and services exchanged sometimes having a high dollar value particularly over the long term. But in order to attain that benefit, human beings must be intellectually and emotionally developed enough to recognize that life isn't a zero-sum game. Not everyone reaches that level of development. Some get stuck at "independent" and go it alone, at least for a while, and others get stuck at "feed me, Seymour!"

Someone who believes what I mentioned above-- that short-term financial benefit outweighs the benefits of a long-term mutually agreeable friendship-- is stuck at a very low level of emotional development. This is a parasitic creature, possibly destined for the entitlement class, and usually lacking in logic skills also. Such people frequently make a living on the benefit of other people's doubt and are prone to self-destructive habits that keep them in an artificial state of financial dependence on others.

Shared activities, favors done, gifts exchanged, and hospitality reciprocated are things that build social capital between people. It is not entirely a matter of social debt, so much as a combination of respect and goodwill. Now, social capital can be converted into money: charities do it all the time through fund raising. But it works for direct marketing too. Many a set of Cutco knives or fake nails have been sold to people simply because a close friend of family member asks them to buy. Yet social capital is renewable but finite. It can be lost, lent to others, and exchanged for money, but I use the analogy of an artesian well when I think about social capital. If you take more out of a relationship than you give to it, the well eventually runs dry. The relationship may be permanently damaged by asking too much from somebody, and the damage isn't always repairable. If you take more out of a community than the community generates by itself, the aquifer that feeds all the wells in the community is depleted and cannot always replenish itself. That's the concept that MLM devotees just don't understand. By trying to constantly monetize relationships, especially before the relationships are well established, they destroy not just their relationships with individuals but the stability of the community itself.

(See? The thread didn't actually derail.)
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jinga nation

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #712 on: January 15, 2018, 09:22:56 AM »
Maybe not MLM, but celebrities hyping health shit is what I hate. I love what Ozzy does in this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEkWlXGdWKA
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Just Joe

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #713 on: January 18, 2018, 02:17:51 PM »
So much of daily life here in the USA is IMHO poisoned by marketing and this kind of capitalism. I swear it either stunts some people's development or reverses the maturation process. Cut the cord! Kill off that kind of social media.

Finances_With_Purpose

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #714 on: January 18, 2018, 04:53:08 PM »
I'm curious what you guys think about the "essential" oils craze.  I heard the other day about one they're selling to pregnant ladies - costs like $1,200 per year to buy - even though it has no proven medical benefits whatsoever.  Of course, the marketing is all word-of-mouth based and social-based.  Call me a skeptic...

jinga nation

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #715 on: January 18, 2018, 07:45:07 PM »
During my kids' soccer practice today, some mum told my wife that she was selling natural beauty products on the side. Her primary occupation is a nurse.
Seriously WTF! She was trying to rope-a-dope my wife into her MLM. Thankfully Mrs. JingaNation does not require this stuff due to her low maintenance.
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NorthernDreamer

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #716 on: January 18, 2018, 08:36:42 PM »
I'm curious what you guys think about the "essential" oils craze.  I heard the other day about one they're selling to pregnant ladies - costs like $1,200 per year to buy - even though it has no proven medical benefits whatsoever.  Of course, the marketing is all word-of-mouth based and social-based.  Call me a skeptic...

The essential oil craze is THE WORST. As a mom in her 30s, I popcorn-watch all the craziness on social media. People believe you can cure diseases with them. Reps often don’t know the safe use of certain oils and recommend ingesting them or using them on babies and children when it’s unsafe. I get that some smell nice and might make you happy because of it. But they are NOT medicines. They’re the modern day snake oils. / End rant /

Travis

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #717 on: January 18, 2018, 08:39:32 PM »
I'm curious what you guys think about the "essential" oils craze. 

Any advertising that tells me their product is "essential" and it's not about food, water, or environmentally-relevant clothing gets immediately shuffled off.
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englishteacheralex

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #718 on: January 18, 2018, 10:57:37 PM »
My husband calls them "optional" oils. But the reason they're called essential oils is because they come from the essence of the plant.
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InquisitiveMind

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #719 on: January 18, 2018, 11:59:12 PM »
Quote
But they are NOT medicines. They’re the modern day snake oils.
I am completely not an MLM person, but will stick up for essential oils as having their uses. I've had some very good experiences with using them, from ultra-fast recovery from injury to enhanced brain function. I agree that many MLM marketers make exaggerated claims.

I'm a fan of non-MLM brands, which are a better value and likely just as high in quality as the more expensive MLM brands.

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #720 on: January 19, 2018, 08:17:42 AM »
I am completely not an MLM person, but will stick up for essential oils as having their uses. I've had some very good experiences with using them, from ultra-fast recovery from injury to enhanced brain function.

Cite, please. Preferably double-blind, controlled studies.

InquisitiveMind

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #721 on: January 19, 2018, 08:51:29 AM »
Quote
Cite, please. Preferably double-blind, controlled studies.

Sure, here you go:

These 134 results from PubMed are a mixed bag, with some including fish oil rather than essential oil, and some showing no benefit of EO vs. placebo, but there are also plenty of findings that support the use of EO for certain applications.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=essential+oils+double+blind+placebo

Just a few of the many examples:

Positive modulation of mood and cognitive performance following administration of acute doses of Salvia lavandulaefolia essential oil to healthy young volunteers
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15639154

Monoterpenoid extract of sage (Salvia lavandulaefolia) with cholinesterase inhibiting properties improves cognitive performance and mood in healthy adults
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20937617

Lavender oil preparation Silexan is effective in generalized anxiety disorder--a randomized, double-blind comparison to placebo and paroxetine
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24456909

Effect of an essential oil-containing dentifrice [toothpaste] on established plaque and gingivitis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23082576

Curcumin and Fennel Essential Oil Improve Symptoms and Quality of Life in Patients with Irritable Bowel Syndrome
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27308645

Antioxidant activity of linalool in patients with carpal tunnel syndrome
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26831333

Efficacy of Silexan [lavender oil extract] in mixed anxiety-depression--A randomized, placebo-controlled trial
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26718792

Efficacy of orally administered Silexan [lavender oil extract] in patients with anxiety-related restlessness and disturbed sleep--A randomized, placebo-controlled trial
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26293583

Effects of Silexan [lavender oil extract] on the serotonin-1A receptor and microstructure of the human brain: a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind, cross-over study with molecular and structural neuroimaging
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25522403

An orally administered lavandula oil preparation (Silexan) for anxiety disorder and related conditions: an evidence based review
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23808618

Efficacy of Peppermint oil in diarrhea predominant IBS - a double blind randomized placebo - controlled study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23416804

Premedication with peppermint oil capsules in colonoscopy: a double blind placebo-controlled randomized trial study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23082707

Application of the essential oil from copaiba (Copaifera langsdori Desf.) for acne vulgaris: a double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22502624
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 09:00:01 AM by InquisitiveMind »

Beard N Bones

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #722 on: January 19, 2018, 09:51:55 AM »
I am completely not an MLM person, but will stick up for essential oils as having their uses. I've had some very good experiences with using them, from ultra-fast recovery from injury to enhanced brain function.

Cite, please. Preferably double-blind, controlled studies.

That line smacks of skepticism.  I understand and get it as I am very critical myself.  However, there is lots of information out there.  It's worth looking into.  (Stay away from any MLM companies and the "research" they come up with, double-blind or otherwise!)
Good luck in finding a sufficient body of knowledge on a specific EO that would come anywhere's close to the "research" done on big-pharma medication.  Not many EO companies will have the 2.6 Billion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_drug_development (a very loose estimate) to test their products like drug companies do.  And why would they put out R&D like that when they can't patent the product(s) they are testing?  No one can patent an orange, or rose, or cedarwood.  Doesn't make them less effective though. 

A few places to find good information...
https://naha.org/explore-aromatherapy/research
http://apps.who.int/medicinedocs/en/d/Js2200e/

Tass

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #723 on: January 19, 2018, 05:04:52 PM »
The idea that things that smell good improve your mood (and that your improved mood can have positive effects on your cognitive performance or mental illness) is not at all shocking to me. With what we know about the placebo effect, I also would not be surprised to learn that merely improving your mood also improves your medical prognosis. I'm curious what kinds of controls are used in these studies to examine that.

As far as medical uses, I feel like saying "essential oils are good for you" is like saying "plants are good for you." Yeah, some plants contain vital nutrients; a lot of them really won't affect you at all; and a handful can kill you. Essential oils include such a wide variety of compounds; proof that one is useful really has no bearing on the on the others.

With that in mind, I believe there is a known molecular mechanism for lavender compounds interacting with certain neural receptors. So sure, naturally derived compounds sometimes have biological uses. That's how we got penicillin, too. That also doesn't change the fact that most organic compounds don't offer much to human biology besides calories, and merely being prepared similarly to lavender oil doesn't make any other essential oil more likely to be special.

TL;DR: pro things smelling pretty, anti paying a lot for things that smell pretty with a misleading label

runbikerun

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #724 on: January 20, 2018, 02:35:21 AM »

An orally administered lavandula oil preparation (Silexan) for anxiety disorder and related conditions: an evidence based review
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23808618


I decided to pull on a thread here and pick a random paper to see what the contents are like. I picked the above paper on lavender oil, to see what I'd find.

There are three very big takeaways from the paper:

1. Lavender oil contains linalyl acetate, which is a genuinely useful compound.
2. What's being tested in the paper (and, as far as I can see, in all the other papers on lavender oil) is a commercially manufactured lavender oil preparation manufactured to exacting specifications and marketed under the brand name Silexan.
3. To quote the paper, "marketed oils from lavender thus differ greatly with regard to quality and manufacturing cost". In other words, buying a bottle of lavender oil is not what's being tested here at all.

From a brief reading of another paper on essential-oil toothpaste and a third one on peppermint oil, the common factor is that what they're testing is commercially manufactured products which include some form of essential oil as an ingredient. None that I've flipped through appear to have been testing the use of essential oils in and of themselves.

I'd also note that there's a geographical and product bias to the papers I've taken a closer look at: there are more from southeast Asia and India than I might have guessed, which may or may not be related to the fact that Asia is the fastest-growing market for essential oils, and almost everything on lavender oil is actually testing Silexan, which is a product manufactured by Schwabe Pharma in Germany, whose parent company has an estimated annual income of about two hundred million dollars. It wouldn't shock me to see the manufacturers of essential oil products taking a leaf out of the pharmaceutical industry's book and quietly and patiently funding the kind of research it wants to see. I'll have to figure out who has my copy of Bad Pharma and see if I can find anything that matches his descriptions - although testing against placebo rather than the best existing treatment is one that springs to mind.

Incidentally, that last one is from the Alternative Medicine Review, which can fuck all the way off.

Finances_With_Purpose

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #725 on: January 20, 2018, 04:33:53 AM »
"optional" oils - I like that.  Sounds like something I would say.  I think I'm going to begin using it.

Glad to see that others share my skepticism of the fad. 

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #726 on: January 20, 2018, 09:18:17 AM »

That line smacks of skepticism. 

And?  A skeptic by definition has doubts and wants to see evidence. That's not a bad thing in any situation.
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Travis

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #727 on: January 20, 2018, 09:40:09 AM »

An orally administered lavandula oil preparation (Silexan) for anxiety disorder and related conditions: an evidence based review
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23808618


I decided to pull on a thread here and pick a random paper to see what the contents are like. I picked the above paper on lavender oil, to see what I'd find.

There are three very big takeaways from the paper:

1. Lavender oil contains linalyl acetate, which is a genuinely useful compound.
2. What's being tested in the paper (and, as far as I can see, in all the other papers on lavender oil) is a commercially manufactured lavender oil preparation manufactured to exacting specifications and marketed under the brand name Silexan.
3. To quote the paper, "marketed oils from lavender thus differ greatly with regard to quality and manufacturing cost". In other words, buying a bottle of lavender oil is not what's being tested here at all.

From a brief reading of another paper on essential-oil toothpaste and a third one on peppermint oil, the common factor is that what they're testing is commercially manufactured products which include some form of essential oil as an ingredient. None that I've flipped through appear to have been testing the use of essential oils in and of themselves.

I'd also note that there's a geographical and product bias to the papers I've taken a closer look at: there are more from southeast Asia and India than I might have guessed, which may or may not be related to the fact that Asia is the fastest-growing market for essential oils, and almost everything on lavender oil is actually testing Silexan, which is a product manufactured by Schwabe Pharma in Germany, whose parent company has an estimated annual income of about two hundred million dollars. It wouldn't shock me to see the manufacturers of essential oil products taking a leaf out of the pharmaceutical industry's book and quietly and patiently funding the kind of research it wants to see. I'll have to figure out who has my copy of Bad Pharma and see if I can find anything that matches his descriptions - although testing against placebo rather than the best existing treatment is one that springs to mind.

Incidentally, that last one is from the Alternative Medicine Review, which can fuck all the way off.

The "Essential Oils" lavender is a topical treatment whereas this study is for an oral pill. Many of the commercially available lavender oils come in bottles that state DO NOT drink.  Apparently there are capsules as well that you can.  I did some poking around and couldn't find a clear ingredient list except for "100% therapeutic grade lavender oil." What the fuck does that mean? Several compounds are extracted from lavender plants and sold in various concentrations. 

The official documentation says keep away from prepubescent children while the websites say "treats acne" and doesn't mention any child-related warnings at all.  For that matter the alternative medicine websites claim it cures damn near everything to include cancer.  One review site says "only treat for cancer after consulting a qualified aromatherapy practitioner.

Those tests and what I can find on the commercial product makes me think they weren't testing the same item.  I'm reminded of a 5-Hour Energy commercial where the spokeswoman said "3000 doctors would recommend a low-calorie energy supplement" while not actually saying "doctors recommend 5-Hour Energy" or that the product even counts as a "low-calorie energy supplement."  If you're not paying attention you might miss that little plot twist.
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ohsnap

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #728 on: January 21, 2018, 07:29:54 AM »
See, the exchange you just explained between you and your husband's CW's wife is a tragedy of our age, in my opinion, @Pioneerw2b.

What in the world is happening to people? When did it become appropriate to co-opt friendship into a business opportunity? Even worse, a horrible, exploitative one that doesn't even work (let's just call it what it is: a SCAM).

Here's a perfectly good budding friendship between two women that could grow into something that would be mutually beneficial to both parties. You enjoy each other's company, and maybe slowly but surely develop into a relationship where you're helping each other out, having each other over for get-togethers, exchanging recipes...one of you has some kind of crisis, the other one is there for you...you know, all the lovely, selfless things that FRIENDSHIPS used to be for.

And this woman totally isolates herself from any of that good stuff by making a budding friendship all about yet another MLM scam. It's bad for society. Now you're going to (rightfully) avoid her and never get to know her, and the husbands are going to feel a little awkward about it at work. It's a crying shame and I hate those companies for ruining the building block of community: friendship.

+1000. 

I recently had a big medical problem including weeks of testing, then surgery, then more testing.  (It's mostly over now, but it was pretty physically and emotionally traumatic for about 3 months).  A friend of mine knew about it - she's not a close friend who I personally told, but she mentioned it when I ran into her at a social event, so I knew she'd heard it through the grapevine.  Right after that I got a lovely pink envelope in the mail from her - I thought, "How nice, she's sending me thoughts and prayers and encouragement."  When I opened the envelope, the first thing I saw was "You're invited!" so my mind then jumped to "oh, her oldest must be getting married and this is a bridal shower!"  Nope.  I think you all know where this is leading.  It was an invitation to a party to "introduce all my friends to XYZ product who haven't yet had a chance to try it."

I've known this woman for 11 years.  It grieves me that this is what passes for friendship these days.

Astatine

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #729 on: January 24, 2018, 12:47:54 AM »
See, the exchange you just explained between you and your husband's CW's wife is a tragedy of our age, in my opinion, @Pioneerw2b.

What in the world is happening to people? When did it become appropriate to co-opt friendship into a business opportunity? Even worse, a horrible, exploitative one that doesn't even work (let's just call it what it is: a SCAM).

Here's a perfectly good budding friendship between two women that could grow into something that would be mutually beneficial to both parties. You enjoy each other's company, and maybe slowly but surely develop into a relationship where you're helping each other out, having each other over for get-togethers, exchanging recipes...one of you has some kind of crisis, the other one is there for you...you know, all the lovely, selfless things that FRIENDSHIPS used to be for.

And this woman totally isolates herself from any of that good stuff by making a budding friendship all about yet another MLM scam. It's bad for society. Now you're going to (rightfully) avoid her and never get to know her, and the husbands are going to feel a little awkward about it at work. It's a crying shame and I hate those companies for ruining the building block of community: friendship.

+1000. 

I recently had a big medical problem including weeks of testing, then surgery, then more testing.  (It's mostly over now, but it was pretty physically and emotionally traumatic for about 3 months).  A friend of mine knew about it - she's not a close friend who I personally told, but she mentioned it when I ran into her at a social event, so I knew she'd heard it through the grapevine.  Right after that I got a lovely pink envelope in the mail from her - I thought, "How nice, she's sending me thoughts and prayers and encouragement."  When I opened the envelope, the first thing I saw was "You're invited!" so my mind then jumped to "oh, her oldest must be getting married and this is a bridal shower!"  Nope.  I think you all know where this is leading.  It was an invitation to a party to "introduce all my friends to XYZ product who haven't yet had a chance to try it."

I've known this woman for 11 years.  It grieves me that this is what passes for friendship these days.

oh ye gads that is horrible :/ I'm so sorry. A few people I know are into MLMs and have signed up as consultants but none of them pushed their MLM on me when I was going through medical tests and treatment.

KMMK

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #730 on: January 24, 2018, 02:18:44 PM »
I think I'm having coffee with someone who does the utility MLMs. I think I'll take it as an opportunity to practice my own sales pitch and to get inside their head more. Eventually I will have the club for ex-MLM people. I just try not to be too publicly against them as a couple are my clients.
Make your non-MMM friends join my money club and I'll beat them into shape! https://www.yourlifemoneycoaching.com/home/meenasmoneyclub/

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LifeHappens

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #731 on: January 24, 2018, 02:21:32 PM »
I think I'm having coffee with someone who does the utility MLMs. I think I'll take it as an opportunity to practice my own sales pitch and to get inside their head more. Eventually I will have the club for ex-MLM people. I just try not to be too publicly against them as a couple are my clients.
Is that like rehab for MLM victims? I'm not being sarcastic. I think it's a needed service.

KMMK

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #732 on: January 24, 2018, 04:11:23 PM »
I think I'm having coffee with someone who does the utility MLMs. I think I'll take it as an opportunity to practice my own sales pitch and to get inside their head more. Eventually I will have the club for ex-MLM people. I just try not to be too publicly against them as a couple are my clients.
Is that like rehab for MLM victims? I'm not being sarcastic. I think it's a needed service.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. People I've talked to think it's a good idea. I'm not sure how to go about it, and it's low on the priority list right now, but eventually I'll do more with the idea.
Make your non-MMM friends join my money club and I'll beat them into shape! https://www.yourlifemoneycoaching.com/home/meenasmoneyclub/

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KodeBlue

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #733 on: January 24, 2018, 08:40:15 PM »
I think I'm having coffee with someone who does the utility MLMs. I think I'll take it as an opportunity to practice my own sales pitch and to get inside their head more. Eventually I will have the club for ex-MLM people. I just try not to be too publicly against them as a couple are my clients.
Is that like rehab for MLM victims? I'm not being sarcastic. I think it's a needed service.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. People I've talked to think it's a good idea. I'm not sure how to go about it, and it's low on the priority list right now, but eventually I'll do more with the idea.
Some org's that help people detox from cults help people who have been brain washed by MLMs.

11ducks

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #734 on: January 24, 2018, 11:20:58 PM »
The idea that things that smell good improve your mood (and that your improved mood can have positive effects on your cognitive performance or mental illness) is not at all shocking to me. With what we know about the placebo effect, I also would not be surprised to learn that merely improving your mood also improves your medical prognosis. I'm curious what kinds of controls are used in these studies to examine that.
TL;DR: pro things smelling pretty, anti paying a lot for things that smell pretty with a misleading label

From what I understand, in double blind studies you aren't aware whether you are getting the treatment or the placebo, so they account for that. The placebo given to the control group should've  been indistinguishable from the intervention (ie both groups get something similarly smelly), which controls for the 'ooh it's a pretty smell, I feel good ' placebo effect?
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Travis

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #735 on: January 25, 2018, 11:56:35 AM »
Cryptocurrency has now dipped its toes into MLM/Ponzi territory.

http://www.ibtimes.com/bitconnect-lawsuit-bitcoin-trading-platfrom-sued-six-victims-2645317

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhL2OWXZ26s Warning: Don't have your speakers turned up too loud for this.  His speech seems like it was lifted almost word for word from some of the MLM trade shows John Oliver was lampooning a year ago.

Apparently their business model was:

-Send in purchased Bitcoin tokens or cash
-Convert them to Bitconnect tokens
-Bitconnect tokens are traded on an exchange
-Receive regular interest payments on the Bitcoin or cash you sent in
-Reinvest or bank your interest payments (but in Bitconnect tokens that must be traded back out)
-Your principle is locked in for year.
-You also receive compensation by bringing in other investors.

It turned out the overwhelming majority of Bitconnect tokens were owned by Bitconnect itself so your ROI is just Bitconnect self-churning its own product using new members to pump it up and paying you back in that near-worthless product.


They received several cease and desist notices this week and have shut down. They're being investigated by several states, the SEC, and are now facing class action lawsuits.  I'm sure they're just the beginning and nobody will learn their lesson.

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DirtDiva

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #736 on: January 25, 2018, 05:36:53 PM »

oh ye gads that is horrible :/ I'm so sorry. A few people I know are into MLMs and have signed up as consultants but none of them pushed their MLM on me when I was going through medical tests and treatment.

An old friend who sells some kind of shake contacted me when I was being treated for vaginal cancer to ask if I had tried raw vegetables.

1.  I already have cancer.  I think it's a bit late for that.
2.  I was having a bad day, and I will admit my answer was not up to my usual level of courtesy.  I asked if I needed to puree the vegetables before putting them in my vagina.

(translation:  fuck off)

Serenity now!

SweetRedWine

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #737 on: January 25, 2018, 07:45:04 PM »

oh ye gads that is horrible :/ I'm so sorry. A few people I know are into MLMs and have signed up as consultants but none of them pushed their MLM on me when I was going through medical tests and treatment.

An old friend who sells some kind of shake contacted me when I was being treated for vaginal cancer to ask if I had tried raw vegetables.

1.  I already have cancer.  I think it's a bit late for that.
2.  I was having a bad day, and I will admit my answer was not up to my usual level of courtesy.  I asked if I needed to puree the vegetables before putting them in my vagina.

(translation:  fuck off)


Best answer ever.

Zikoris

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #738 on: January 26, 2018, 09:42:25 AM »
God damn, I need more pushy MLM people in my life. For lulz.
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ohsnap

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #739 on: January 27, 2018, 07:36:34 AM »

oh ye gads that is horrible :/ I'm so sorry. A few people I know are into MLMs and have signed up as consultants but none of them pushed their MLM on me when I was going through medical tests and treatment.

An old friend who sells some kind of shake contacted me when I was being treated for vaginal cancer to ask if I had tried raw vegetables.

1.  I already have cancer.  I think it's a bit late for that.
2.  I was having a bad day, and I will admit my answer was not up to my usual level of courtesy.  I asked if I needed to puree the vegetables before putting them in my vagina.

(translation:  fuck off)

Good for you.  I used to have a friend whose husband was in some kind of health MLM (don't remember if it was shakes or supplements or what).  When I had breast cancer, she helpfully passed along the advice from her husband to "eat walnuts."  Seriously.  At the time, I imagined that they were trying to offer me some free "helpful" advice that didn't directly benefit them, so that I'd turn to him for his costly MLM product later.  This story about your "old friend" seems to follow the same pattern; I wonder if this is taught in MLM training?  "When you find out someone has cancer, don't approach directly about MLM.  Instead, offer sympathy and raw veg and walnuts to nurture the relationship; then go in later with the pitch."

Tass

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #740 on: January 27, 2018, 12:08:31 PM »
The idea that things that smell good improve your mood (and that your improved mood can have positive effects on your cognitive performance or mental illness) is not at all shocking to me. With what we know about the placebo effect, I also would not be surprised to learn that merely improving your mood also improves your medical prognosis. I'm curious what kinds of controls are used in these studies to examine that.
TL;DR: pro things smelling pretty, anti paying a lot for things that smell pretty with a misleading label

From what I understand, in double blind studies you aren't aware whether you are getting the treatment or the placebo, so they account for that. The placebo given to the control group should've  been indistinguishable from the intervention (ie both groups get something similarly smelly), which controls for the 'ooh it's a pretty smell, I feel good ' placebo effect?

The problem in this case is if you can't separate the compound that causes the smell from the compound that maybe produces a medical benefit. So if your controls smell, say, rosemary, and the result is different, how do you know whether it's a molecular difference or just that rosemary is a less soothing smell?

Miss Piggy

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #741 on: January 28, 2018, 03:47:28 PM »
2.  I was having a bad day, and I will admit my answer was not up to my usual level of courtesy.  I asked if I needed to puree the vegetables before putting them in my vagina.

(translation:  fuck off)

That is classic! Great response.

At a similar time in my life, I was "offered" a similar product. But since it was my sister doing the offering, I was a bit nicer about it. Wish I didn't have to be.

LifeHappens

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #742 on: January 29, 2018, 09:57:40 AM »
I think I'm having coffee with someone who does the utility MLMs. I think I'll take it as an opportunity to practice my own sales pitch and to get inside their head more. Eventually I will have the club for ex-MLM people. I just try not to be too publicly against them as a couple are my clients.
Is that like rehab for MLM victims? I'm not being sarcastic. I think it's a needed service.

Yes, that's exactly what it is. People I've talked to think it's a good idea. I'm not sure how to go about it, and it's low on the priority list right now, but eventually I'll do more with the idea.
I think it's a great idea. Perhaps you can help people develop their entrepreneurial skills to the point they feel confident starting their own businesses or side gigs rather than relying on ready-made solutions.

DirtDiva

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #743 on: January 29, 2018, 10:14:17 PM »

oh ye gads that is horrible :/ I'm so sorry. A few people I know are into MLMs and have signed up as consultants but none of them pushed their MLM on me when I was going through medical tests and treatment.

An old friend who sells some kind of shake contacted me when I was being treated for vaginal cancer to ask if I had tried raw vegetables.

1.  I already have cancer.  I think it's a bit late for that.
2.  I was having a bad day, and I will admit my answer was not up to my usual level of courtesy.  I asked if I needed to puree the vegetables before putting them in my vagina.

(translation:  fuck off)

Good for you.  I used to have a friend whose husband was in some kind of health MLM (don't remember if it was shakes or supplements or what).  When I had breast cancer, she helpfully passed along the advice from her husband to "eat walnuts."  Seriously.  At the time, I imagined that they were trying to offer me some free "helpful" advice that didn't directly benefit them, so that I'd turn to him for his costly MLM product later.  This story about your "old friend" seems to follow the same pattern; I wonder if this is taught in MLM training?  "When you find out someone has cancer, don't approach directly about MLM.  Instead, offer sympathy and raw veg and walnuts to nurture the relationship; then go in later with the pitch."

LOL...yes, the overpriced slim fast  shake was later proffered as an alternative healing option.  #oblivious
Serenity now!

chaskavitch

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #744 on: January 30, 2018, 06:29:38 AM »
/sigh

Yet another Facebook friend and mother of small children has started selling Usborne books.  That makes 3 now, in addition to the ones selling various nail wraps or gel nail kits, and my cousin who messaged me at the beginning of the year asking if I was interested in "all natural products" for around the house. 

...I told her that I was joining an Uber Frugal January challenge, lol, and my goal was to buy less and add fewer things to my house, lol.  A cop out, but so true!

mm1970

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #745 on: January 30, 2018, 10:51:51 AM »
/sigh

Yet another Facebook friend and mother of small children has started selling Usborne books.  That makes 3 now, in addition to the ones selling various nail wraps or gel nail kits, and my cousin who messaged me at the beginning of the year asking if I was interested in "all natural products" for around the house. 

...I told her that I was joining an Uber Frugal January challenge, lol, and my goal was to buy less and add fewer things to my house, lol.  A cop out, but so true!
My cousin got into those.  She tried to sell me on them because my 2nd kid was a bit older than her first kid.

Key word: second kid.  I still have a billion books from the first one (gifted, bought used, etc).

Just Joe

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #746 on: January 30, 2018, 02:25:15 PM »
So bookstores or libraries aren't an option? An MLM can sell the product better?

I'm a red panda

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #747 on: January 30, 2018, 02:47:43 PM »
So bookstores or libraries aren't an option? An MLM can sell the product better?

Why won't you help women be their own boss? What do you have against entrepreneurs and business owners. You should support Moms trying to be there for their kids.



(Even more fun- Usborne is sold in bookstores too.)

Beard N Bones

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #748 on: January 30, 2018, 03:47:21 PM »
So bookstores or libraries aren't an option? An MLM can sell the product better?

Why won't you help women be their own boss? What do you have against entrepreneurs and business owners. You should support Moms trying to be there for their kids.



(Even more fun- Usborne is sold in bookstores too.)

I can't tell if you are trolling iowajes.  (I hope you are.)
The salespersons in MLMs are not bosses.  They are not entrepreneurial.  Nor are they business owners.  And I can say with certainty that they are NOT making money for their family/kids.

Travis

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #749 on: January 30, 2018, 05:50:40 PM »
So bookstores or libraries aren't an option? An MLM can sell the product better?

Why won't you help women be their own boss? What do you have against entrepreneurs and business owners. You should support Moms trying to be there for their kids.



(Even more fun- Usborne is sold in bookstores too.)

I can't tell if you are trolling iowajes.  (I hope you are.)
The salespersons in MLMs are not bosses.  They are not entrepreneurial.  Nor are they business owners.  And I can say with certainty that they are NOT making money for their family/kids.

Iowajes was just listing every excuse thrown about for not supporting a MLM member.  This is a long thread, but trust me, we've gone into plenty of detail on every one of your points.
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