Author Topic: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B  (Read 3715 times)

Chris Pascale

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19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« on: November 21, 2022, 10:40:14 AM »
https://finance.yahoo.com/m/f5a3ff38-de12-31ad-a38e-1e7c8ee00b0d/how-caroline-ellison-found.html

Looking at her Wikipedia, I see both her parents were MIT professors, and she got a math degree in 2016 from Stanford.

All looking good so far.

Then she was a junior trader for 1.5 years while popping pills, which helped her see "how boring normal life is." https://nypost.com/2022/11/15/crypto-ceo-caroline-ellison-tweeted-about-regular-amphetamine-use/

In the quest to not live a boring life, she borrowed $10B, which, somehow, had a downside.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2023, 07:02:12 AM by Chris Pascale »

StarBright

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2022, 10:55:25 AM »
My first thought was that she probably meant ADHD meds and I was going to be furious if the article didn't mention it - but the article did!  But BOO NY POST for such an awful clickbait headline and implying something else.

For people with ADHD Adderall (an amphetimine) is comparable to a cup a coffee.

And folks with ADHD are statistically likely to have impulse control issues, so super smart junior trader to borrowing 10B, to full blown crypto meltdown honestly tracks for me.

 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 10:57:39 AM by StarBright »

Chris Pascale

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2022, 11:17:46 AM »
My first thought was that she probably meant ADHD meds and I was going to be furious if the article didn't mention it - but the article did!  But BOO NY POST for such an awful clickbait headline and implying something else.

For people with ADHD Adderall (an amphetimine) is comparable to a cup a coffee.

And folks with ADHD are statistically likely to have impulse control issues, so super smart junior trader to borrowing 10B, to full blown crypto meltdown honestly tracks for me.

I like your very thoughtful take on this.

A terrific docu you might like is "Take Your Pills" on Netflix.

One of my kids said that taking the meds was like she was walking up a cloud-filled mountain, and suddenly the mist parted and she could see the summit. After a few months she decided to go off of them, figuring she could always go back on them later.

ChpBstrd

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2022, 08:31:25 AM »
Looking at her Wikipedia, I see both her parents were MIT professors, and she got a math degree in 2016 from Stanford.

Maybe the lesson we're all missing here is that assigning a pedigree or a halo to people based on the exclusivity of the college they attended is a foolish way to determine their trustworthiness, potential to achieve great things, or the legitimacy of their ideas. But if we haven't learned that lesson by now, I don't think this example will teach us.

FINate

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2022, 11:28:09 AM »
Looking at her Wikipedia, I see both her parents were MIT professors, and she got a math degree in 2016 from Stanford.

Maybe the lesson we're all missing here is that assigning a pedigree or a halo to people based on the exclusivity of the college they attended is a foolish way to determine their trustworthiness, potential to achieve great things, or the legitimacy of their ideas. But if we haven't learned that lesson by now, I don't think this example will teach us.

Agreed.

Interestingly Caroline Ellison, SBF, and Elizabeth Holmes all have connections to Stanford. Is something off there that they're producing prominent fraudsters? Seems unlikely. My guess is that the access to wealth and power Stanford affords is hugely attractive to individuals that are willing to break the rules to succeed (i.e. sociopaths).

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2023, 03:54:00 PM »
Looking at her Wikipedia, I see both her parents were MIT professors, and she got a math degree in 2016 from Stanford.

Maybe the lesson we're all missing here is that assigning a pedigree or a halo to people based on the exclusivity of the college they attended is a foolish way to determine their trustworthiness, potential to achieve great things, or the legitimacy of their ideas. But if we haven't learned that lesson by now, I don't think this example will teach us.

Agreed.

Interestingly Caroline Ellison, SBF, and Elizabeth Holmes all have connections to Stanford. Is something off there that they're producing prominent fraudsters? Seems unlikely. My guess is that the access to wealth and power Stanford affords is hugely attractive to individuals that are willing to break the rules to succeed (i.e. sociopaths).

Meh. I think that all it means is that people who are already fraudsters in the making recognize brand allure as something that enhances their otherwise nonexistent credibility. It really isn't that much different from self-appointed Internet gurus who market themselves at having "spoken at" some major university, when in reality they and their cronies rented a room and then exchanged sales pitches. In other words, it's basic marketing. As long as people continue to be influenced by branding, they will continue to overlook problems in sales presentation or basic ethics because their panties get wet when someone mentions an exclusive, expensive university.

Whether big name universities are "good" based on their habit of selecting only the candidates with the parents who can pay the most for fraudulent prep companies highest grade point averages is another issue. I personally think that a better university would be the one who could make something special out of just an average student. Accepting only the "best and the brightest" and then producing a shiny, sparkling graduate isn't much of a claim to excellence.

GuitarStv

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2023, 09:29:31 AM »
My first thought was that she probably meant ADHD meds and I was going to be furious if the article didn't mention it - but the article did!  But BOO NY POST for such an awful clickbait headline and implying something else.

For people with ADHD Adderall (an amphetimine) is comparable to a cup a coffee.

And folks with ADHD are statistically likely to have impulse control issues, so super smart junior trader to borrowing 10B, to full blown crypto meltdown honestly tracks for me.

Adderall doesn't magically work differently on people with ADHD.  As mentioned, it's an amphetamine.  It still gets people with ADHD high.  Those who regularly take it (including those with ADHD) are at elevated risk for addiction problems.  Unlike caffeine, the withdrawal from Adderall lasts longer and is quite a bit more significant (nausea, vomiting, depression with suicide risk, inability to sleep, etc).  Generally it's not advised that you stop taking it cold turkey.

Doctors who prescribe this drug are supposed to carefully manage the drug cycles that people with ADHD take for these reasons.

sonofsven

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2023, 09:28:17 AM »
Looking at her Wikipedia, I see both her parents were MIT professors, and she got a math degree in 2016 from Stanford.

Maybe the lesson we're all missing here is that assigning a pedigree or a halo to people based on the exclusivity of the college they attended is a foolish way to determine their trustworthiness, potential to achieve great things, or the legitimacy of their ideas. But if we haven't learned that lesson by now, I don't think this example will teach us.

Agreed.

Interestingly Caroline Ellison, SBF, and Elizabeth Holmes all have connections to Stanford. Is something off there that they're producing prominent fraudsters? Seems unlikely. My guess is that the access to wealth and power Stanford affords is hugely attractive to individuals that are willing to break the rules to succeed (i.e. sociopaths).
Rich people

StarBright

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2023, 11:18:36 AM »
My first thought was that she probably meant ADHD meds and I was going to be furious if the article didn't mention it - but the article did!  But BOO NY POST for such an awful clickbait headline and implying something else.

For people with ADHD Adderall (an amphetimine) is comparable to a cup a coffee.

And folks with ADHD are statistically likely to have impulse control issues, so super smart junior trader to borrowing 10B, to full blown crypto meltdown honestly tracks for me.

Adderall doesn't magically work differently on people with ADHD.  As mentioned, it's an amphetamine.  It still gets people with ADHD high.  Those who regularly take it (including those with ADHD) are at elevated risk for addiction problems.  Unlike caffeine, the withdrawal from Adderall lasts longer and is quite a bit more significant (nausea, vomiting, depression with suicide risk, inability to sleep, etc).  Generally it's not advised that you stop taking it cold turkey.

Doctors who prescribe this drug are supposed to carefully manage the drug cycles that people with ADHD take for these reasons.

My understanding and experience is that adderall on an ADHD brain will actually help calm a person down and neutralize the hyperactivity. With a non-adhd brain it will hype them up.

Interesting about the not stopping cold turkey. It was recommended for one of my kids specifically because it was better to stop and start as needed (but I understand this might be a US thing and that adderall is banned in lots of countries).

GuitarStv

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2023, 11:34:07 AM »
My first thought was that she probably meant ADHD meds and I was going to be furious if the article didn't mention it - but the article did!  But BOO NY POST for such an awful clickbait headline and implying something else.

For people with ADHD Adderall (an amphetimine) is comparable to a cup a coffee.

And folks with ADHD are statistically likely to have impulse control issues, so super smart junior trader to borrowing 10B, to full blown crypto meltdown honestly tracks for me.

Adderall doesn't magically work differently on people with ADHD.  As mentioned, it's an amphetamine.  It still gets people with ADHD high.  Those who regularly take it (including those with ADHD) are at elevated risk for addiction problems.  Unlike caffeine, the withdrawal from Adderall lasts longer and is quite a bit more significant (nausea, vomiting, depression with suicide risk, inability to sleep, etc).  Generally it's not advised that you stop taking it cold turkey.

Doctors who prescribe this drug are supposed to carefully manage the drug cycles that people with ADHD take for these reasons.

My understanding and experience is that adderall on an ADHD brain will actually help calm a person down and neutralize the hyperactivity. With a non-adhd brain it will hype them up.

Interesting about the not stopping cold turkey. It was recommended for one of my kids specifically because it was better to stop and start as needed (but I understand this might be a US thing and that adderall is banned in lots of countries).

Adderall at ADHD level theraputic doses does a lot of stuff to a person.  Improved cognition control is one of them.  It also causes feelings of euphoria, increased wakefulness, and change in sex drive.  In studies, Adderall measurably increases reaction time, increases muscle strength, and reduces fatigue in exercise as well.

As with all drugs, dose is very important.  With a very low dose the withdrawal symptoms will be reduced, which might be why your doctor was advising you to start/stop as needed (this method of using an addictive drug needs to be carefully monitored for abuse of course).  You always want to dose the minimum that you can get away with to have the desired effect.

uniwelder

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2023, 11:54:24 AM »
Looking at her Wikipedia, I see both her parents were MIT professors, and she got a math degree in 2016 from Stanford.

Maybe the lesson we're all missing here is that assigning a pedigree or a halo to people based on the exclusivity of the college they attended is a foolish way to determine their trustworthiness, potential to achieve great things, or the legitimacy of their ideas. But if we haven't learned that lesson by now, I don't think this example will teach us.

Agreed.

Interestingly Caroline Ellison, SBF, and Elizabeth Holmes all have connections to Stanford. Is something off there that they're producing prominent fraudsters? Seems unlikely. My guess is that the access to wealth and power Stanford affords is hugely attractive to individuals that are willing to break the rules to succeed (i.e. sociopaths).

I think SBF is Sam Bankman-Fried that you're referring to.  Interesting that his parents are law professors at Stanford and even cosigned on property in the Bahamas.

FINate

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2023, 12:40:28 PM »
Looking at her Wikipedia, I see both her parents were MIT professors, and she got a math degree in 2016 from Stanford.

Maybe the lesson we're all missing here is that assigning a pedigree or a halo to people based on the exclusivity of the college they attended is a foolish way to determine their trustworthiness, potential to achieve great things, or the legitimacy of their ideas. But if we haven't learned that lesson by now, I don't think this example will teach us.

Agreed.

Interestingly Caroline Ellison, SBF, and Elizabeth Holmes all have connections to Stanford. Is something off there that they're producing prominent fraudsters? Seems unlikely. My guess is that the access to wealth and power Stanford affords is hugely attractive to individuals that are willing to break the rules to succeed (i.e. sociopaths).

I think SBF is Sam Bankman-Fried that you're referring to.  Interesting that his parents are law professors at Stanford and even cosigned on property in the Bahamas.

Yep. Which makes the implosion of FTX/Alameda, along with the resulting fallout, all the more remarkable. Essentially no controls or oversight, everything was ad hoc and chaotic. You'd think someone with law professor parents would have known this wasn't okay. And then SBF kept talking to the media as everything hit the fan, giving prosecutors a treasure trove of evidence to use against him. The entire situation is the result of inexperience and arrogance -- funny how those often go together.

I hope at some point society walks back its obsession with the mythical wonderkid. Not that young people can't make a big difference (clearly this has happened), but this is rather rare, and very often modern instances are nothing more then highly privileged kids with parents that fund their ventures and/or leverage connections for their benefit.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2023, 01:35:00 PM »
To raise money for their defense, maybe SBF and his team ought to release a new cryptocurrency to highlight the dangers of overconfidence. They could call it the Dunning-Krugerrand.

Hula Hoop

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2023, 02:09:06 AM »
I refuse to click on this clickbait headline but what an ableist BS article.  There is such stigma and misunderstanding around ADHD and ADHD medication-- this stigma and ignorance particularly effects girls and women as well as POC, who are much less likely that white males to be diagnosed and properly medicated/treated for ADHD, even though we all have it in roughly equal numbers.  Even when diagnosed, the stigma surrounding medication (including articles like this one and some comments here) means that many people go untreated leading to tragic outcomes.

I take ADHD stimulant meds (not the one mentioned in this thread) prescribed by a psychiatrist.  I had to jump through many hoops to get diagnosed at age 50.  No one saw what was right in front of them --as I'm a woman and I apparently masked well. Although now that I'm diagnosed and am "out" with my diagnosis people in life are saying "oh my God, it was always so obvious but we never thought of it as you are a girl".   Same with other women in my family.  It's really hard to read stuff like this and some of the comments on this thread after my experience and those of several family members.

Chris Pascale

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Re: 19 months as a junior trader, then a CEO borrowing $10B
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2023, 07:01:34 AM »
No one saw what was right in front of them --as I'm a woman and I apparently masked well.

Girls in school get diagnosed less often because they act out less. Have seen it first-hand. Medicine does this (failing to differentiate between the sexes) with a lot of things, and so do diets.

Sorry you had to jump through so many hoops.