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Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: Parizade on February 12, 2016, 03:01:15 PM

Title: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Parizade on February 12, 2016, 03:01:15 PM
An American couple tried to emigrate to Ireland for retirement but they are being asked to leave.

"We paid cash for our house and car. As we have no debt, have private health insurance, and live a modest lifestyle, we can easily get by on less than 25,000 per year -- but INIS, for no explanation, wants us to receive four times that amount," Mr. Woods states.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Ireland-rejecting-American-retirees-under-new-rules.html

"Effective without notice some time in March 2015, the Ireland Naturalisation and Immigration Service (INIS) changed the standards by which non-EU retirees are determined to be financially suitable for residency.

The new rule requires that retirees have an annual income of no less than 50,000 per person, (100,000 for a married couple) for the remainder of their lives in Ireland, regardless of their existing cash on hand or lack of debt."



Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: LaineyAZ on February 12, 2016, 03:42:56 PM
wow, this seems awfully strict.  Wonder if they're trying to curb immigrants who want their health care?  Very strange.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Parizade on February 12, 2016, 04:11:22 PM
Fortunately I only plan to spend winters there occasionally, so it won't affect me.

The couple should have checked out the immigration rules before buying a house there, but who would imagine such a law? It's very antimustachian.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: beltim on February 12, 2016, 04:48:41 PM
Fortunately I only plan to spend winters there occasionally, so it won't affect me.

The couple should have checked out the immigration rules before buying a house there, but who would imagine such a law? It's very antimustachian.

They changed the rules AFTER they immigrated. You can't blame them for rule changes after they immigrated.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: lizzzi on February 12, 2016, 05:09:23 PM
Maybe they are trying to keep migrants out, and avoid some of the problems countries on the Continent are having. But boy, are they ever throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Retired Americans who spend their money over there and become part of the community--doing volunteer work, just generally being helpful and all-around pillars of the community--would be very good for the country. It's too bad they're being kicked out. Probably the thing to do is keep a place in the States, and just keep going over to Ireland every year for just under the 180 days.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Parizade on February 12, 2016, 06:49:16 PM
They changed the rules AFTER they immigrated. You can't blame them for rule changes after they immigrated.

You are correct! I missed that in the first reading.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: cerat0n1a on February 13, 2016, 05:54:29 AM
The couple should have checked out the immigration rules before buying a house there, but who would imagine such a law? It's very antimustachian.

Agree that it's a strange thing to change the rules like this, and particularly harsh to have it apply retrospectively. Equally, I'd be amazed if the US allowed Irish people with an income of $25 000 per year to retire there. Ireland has a higher percentage of foreign-born residents than the US does, so migration is a hot topic there. (I'd say it's something to be proud of that after so long as a place that people left to find a better life, they're now a nation with a net inflow of migrants.)
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Paul der Krake on February 13, 2016, 06:29:59 AM
Agree that it's a strange thing to change the rules like this, and particularly harsh to have it apply retrospectively. Equally, I'd be amazed if the US allowed Irish people with an income of $25 000 per year to retire there. Ireland has a higher percentage of foreign-born residents than the US does, so migration is a hot topic there. (I'd say it's something to be proud of that after so long as a place that people left to find a better life, they're now a nation with a net inflow of migrants.)
The US doesn't even have a program for foreign retirees to come and spend the rest of their days here. They would need to qualify, somehow, through the same channels as everybody else. Which is next to impossible without family ties or employment prospects.

To go around it, some people buy a home in Florida and spend the winter there, but maintain residency in their home country. That makes them repeat tourists, not residents.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: lizzzi on February 13, 2016, 07:11:31 AM
Yes, "repeat tourists" is a good way of putting it. I guess that's what many of us who like Ireland and would like to spend more time there will have to do. It's a shame--it used to be easier.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: NearlyThere on February 14, 2016, 12:16:42 AM
Coming over here and spending your hard earned money. Not on our watch, not on our watch.

I don't agree that this is being applied retrospectively, but conversely as an Irish person looking at America as a destination in early retirement, the door is firmly shut for long periods.

Repeat tourism is it.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: lizzzi on February 14, 2016, 07:08:34 AM
What do you mean, Major F.P.? Why would you not want Americans to spend their money in Ireland?
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on February 14, 2016, 06:43:08 PM
What do you mean, Major F.P.? Why would you not want Americans to spend their money in Ireland?

I read it as a form of payback for the way the US deliberately uses any policy or law it can to deter long-term visitors and permanent residents.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: lizzzi on February 15, 2016, 10:09:59 AM
It just drives me crazy. As a professional person with marketable and much needed skills (health care), it would be virtually impossible for me to emigrate from the States to the U.K. or Ireland, where I have close cultural ties and some family. (Cousins.) I can't emigrate to Ireland based on a grandparent, as the last one of us to be born in Europe was my grandmother...born in England. I thought I might possibly retire in Ireland, as I am out of the workforce now and perfectly comfortable...house  paid in full, car paid in full, no debt of any kind, decent NW, and a FIRE income of $40,000. I can live fairly large...really have anything I would want...but can I retire in Ireland? Nooooooo. Oh no, no, no. In fairness, I do get it that the U.S. makes it very hard for them to come here, too. Annoying from both vantage points. But if it's so hard to retire in the U.S. for the Irish (or U.K. subjects), and so hard for Yanks to retire to Ireland or the U.K....why is it that we all are chock-a-block full and over-run with third world immigrants or migrants getting in one way or the other--many illegal and staying forever...how do they Do that? And why can't we middle-class Americans or western Europeans? I'm just scratching my head. Canada is hard, too, btw.

If we are supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the brave, a new hope for the trammeled millions--holding up our torches like the Statue of Liberty or whatever--why is it so easy for some to immigrate and so hard for others? What am I missing?
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Parizade on February 15, 2016, 10:21:29 AM
....why is it that we all are chock-a-block full and over-run with third world immigrants or migrants getting in one way or the other--many illegal and staying forever...how do they Do that? And why can't we middle-class Americans or western Europeans? I'm just scratching my head. Canada is hard, too, btw.

If we are supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the brave, a new hope for the trammeled millions--holding up our torches like the Statue of Liberty or whatever--why is it so easy for some to immigrate and so hard for others? What am I missing?

This is really why the issue of amnesty for illegal immigrants drives me nuts. Decent, hard working people who would contribute to our society get tied up in so much red tape they can't move here, but the sneaky b@stards who lied their way across the border to give birth deserve to stay here now? grrrrr!
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: lizzzi on February 15, 2016, 10:39:23 AM
Yes, it's crazy-making. For myself, I will just plan to do probably three or four-month rentals in the areas I like--maybe almost six-months, keeping it under the 180 days that might start to worry Immigration and Naturalization. And I'll make sure I have a return ticket to JFK in my hand.  That will be good in a way--it will give me a lot of flexibility. Ireland one year, maybe the Scottish Highlands or North Wales the next.... I just won't live there...won't be able to pitch in with volunteer work probably--or not as much as I'd like--but it should be enough time to enjoy the places and perhaps get to know some of the people, at least as acquaintances. And while they won't let me retire there, at least I'm sure they won't mind me spending my money there.  : D
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Albert on February 15, 2016, 12:27:46 PM
Not sure why Irish (and USA) make it harder than it should be, but it's not like there aren't hundreds of thousands of West Europeans living permanently in US. Americans aren't exactly rare in Europe either (I know several personally). The key I guess is that they all work and/or are married with locals...
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Gin1984 on February 15, 2016, 01:24:20 PM
....why is it that we all are chock-a-block full and over-run with third world immigrants or migrants getting in one way or the other--many illegal and staying forever...how do they Do that? And why can't we middle-class Americans or western Europeans? I'm just scratching my head. Canada is hard, too, btw.

If we are supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the brave, a new hope for the trammeled millions--holding up our torches like the Statue of Liberty or whatever--why is it so easy for some to immigrate and so hard for others? What am I missing?

This is really why the issue of amnesty for illegal immigrants drives me nuts. Decent, hard working people who would contribute to our society get tied up in so much red tape they can't move here, but the sneaky b@stards who lied their way across the border to give birth deserve to stay here now? grrrrr!
Most of those illegal immigrants are decent, hardworking people who are doing jobs most Americans won't do at least at the wage offered and sometimes at any rate.  Trust me, picking fruit for a per piece is one of the hardest and worst job I have ever done.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Parizade on February 15, 2016, 02:09:26 PM
....why is it that we all are chock-a-block full and over-run with third world immigrants or migrants getting in one way or the other--many illegal and staying forever...how do they Do that? And why can't we middle-class Americans or western Europeans? I'm just scratching my head. Canada is hard, too, btw.

If we are supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the brave, a new hope for the trammeled millions--holding up our torches like the Statue of Liberty or whatever--why is it so easy for some to immigrate and so hard for others? What am I missing?

This is really why the issue of amnesty for illegal immigrants drives me nuts. Decent, hard working people who would contribute to our society get tied up in so much red tape they can't move here, but the sneaky b@stards who lied their way across the border to give birth deserve to stay here now? grrrrr!
Most of those illegal immigrants are decent, hardworking people who are doing jobs most Americans won't do at least at the wage offered and sometimes at any rate.  Trust me, picking fruit for a per piece is one of the hardest and worst job I have ever done.

IMHO, people who abide by the laws of this nation and go through the legal process to come here should always ALWAYS be given preference over those who broke the law to come here. I will concede however that the immigration process needs some major overhaul, especially when it comes to our southern neighbors.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: StockBeard on February 15, 2016, 04:38:08 PM
Quote
David and Maura Woods relocated to Ireland from California in May 2014, having purchased a home in County Mayo. They applied for permission to remain in Ireland in September 2014, and despite having arrived before INIS changed its methodology, their application was rejected on the basis of not having an annual income of 100,000, and at the same time issued with an order to leave Ireland in seven days.
Unbelievable. The "retroactive" effect + "leave the country within 7 days" feels so wrong.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: arebelspy on February 15, 2016, 04:41:04 PM
Quote
David and Maura Woods relocated to Ireland from California in May 2014, having purchased a home in County Mayo. They applied for permission to remain in Ireland in September 2014, and despite having arrived before INIS changed its methodology, their application was rejected on the basis of not having an annual income of 100,000, and at the same time issued with an order to leave Ireland in seven days.
Unbelievable. The "retroactive" effect + "leave the country within 7 days" feels so wrong.

Yeah.  Wow.

Feel bad for them.  =/
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Cassie on February 15, 2016, 05:37:07 PM
Wow-that is awful. It would seem like they could have a person sign a legal document saying they are not entitled to any services, etc from the government.  Realistically how many people have a $100,000 yearly income there.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: MgoSam on February 16, 2016, 08:36:04 AM
There goes any chance of Ireland as a post-FIRE home. It really wasn't in the runnings, but this just puts the nail on any chance I would consider it. Shame as most retirees that go there would put money into their economy, and I know that upon retiring abroad, I will be looking for volunteer opportunities to give back and imagine that many other people would like to do so as well.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on February 16, 2016, 10:48:12 AM
There goes any chance of Ireland as a post-FIRE home. It really wasn't in the runnings, but this just puts the nail on any chance I would consider it. Shame as most retirees that go there would put money into their economy, and I know that upon retiring abroad, I will be looking for volunteer opportunities to give back and imagine that many other people would like to do so as well.

I think they came up with the rule because of the spending patterns of the mainstream, not the Mustachian spending pattern. No nation wants a bunch of immigrants that are going to consume more in terms of services and resources than they produce. A Mustachian, post-FIRE, with an income of $25k could live quite comfortably while contributing to the economy, and will have assets sufficient to cover things like necessary medical care and accommodations. A spendypants with a similar income is not going to have accrued enough wealth to live off. So they set the income criterion at a level that would mitigating the risk of attracting non-asset-generating permanent residents.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: onehair on February 17, 2016, 10:53:05 AM
Have they gotten a lawyer practicing there with experience in Irish immigration law?  I do want to visit there one day to see where part of my lineage comes from a very small percentage to be honest....
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Gin1984 on February 17, 2016, 12:40:19 PM
Have they gotten a lawyer practicing there with experience in Irish immigration law?  I do want to visit there one day to see where part of my lineage comes from a very small percentage to be honest....
And visiting will be fine.  What is being discussed does not even have a US equivalent.  It is basically a retirement residency program.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: mohawkbrah on February 17, 2016, 01:23:53 PM
luckily uk citizens can live in ireland with no complications (as far as i know) since we have special ties with that nation. no requirements what so ever
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Gin1984 on February 17, 2016, 02:06:54 PM
luckily uk citizens can live in ireland with no complications (as far as i know) since we have special ties with that nation. no requirements what so ever
Southern Ireland aka the republic of ireland?
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: I'm a red panda on February 17, 2016, 02:25:45 PM
How much is a mustachian retiree going to contribute to the economy? Extremely low spending, no income to tax.  I'm not seeing what Ireland gains from allowing people to live there? 

And even if they somehow are excluded from services like healthcare, there are tons of government services- roads, police, fire, libraries, community centers etc that people would benefit from- so the government is going to want to collect taxes on its residents.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: onlykelsey on February 17, 2016, 02:44:06 PM
luckily uk citizens can live in ireland with no complications (as far as i know) since we have special ties with that nation. no requirements what so ever
Southern Ireland aka the republic of ireland?

Strangely, yes. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/rights_of_residence_in_ireland/residence_rules_UK_citizens.html
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Parizade on February 17, 2016, 03:39:41 PM
luckily uk citizens can live in ireland with no complications (as far as i know) since we have special ties with that nation. no requirements what so ever
Southern Ireland aka the republic of ireland?

Strangely, yes. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/rights_of_residence_in_ireland/residence_rules_UK_citizens.html

Not so strange. When I was in Ireland my very Irish hiking guide told me he feels more connected to the EU than to just Ireland, and UK is part of EU so if he is typical then the law makes sense.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: onlykelsey on February 17, 2016, 04:02:11 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean the feeling of connection to the rest of Europe is weird.  I meant that in light of 20th century UK - Irish relations (which pretty heavily featured violence and terrorism at times), that they let UK citizens in in a way, say, Danes aren't let in is interesting.

Although now that I type that out I wonder if it has more to do with letting Northern Irish live in the Republic than letting English/Welsh/Scottish live there.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Paul der Krake on February 17, 2016, 04:51:28 PM
Although now that I type that out I wonder if it has more to do with letting Northern Irish live in the Republic than letting English/Welsh/Scottish live there.
Maybe. But as a general rule, countries have long-standing "fast lane" agreement with their close neighbors all the time. Free movement benefits everyone when the countries are roughly equivalent in terms of economic and cultural clout.

If Brexit does happen and the EU implodes this year, Westminster will pass legislation overnight to let the 300,000+ French citizens in London remain where they are, while Paris does the same for British expats on French soil. They'll probably take their time for the Greeks and Spaniards though.



So as a citizen of a France, I naively was under the impression that I would be eligible to FIRE wherever I well damn please, at any age, as long as it is within the EU. Not so! Ireland, since it's the example in this thread, wants me to either be engaged in employment, or prove that I would not be a burden on the state (and the bar is pretty high). However, there is an EU law that automatically makes me eligible for permanent residency if I have worked in the country of your choice for 5 years. So I could potentially do some consulting or engage in a very light economic activity in Ireland for 5 years, and never lift a finger afterwards.

Aside from this little trick, each country has their own rules, and of course the official websites don't exactly provide easy flowcharts for people with weird backgrounds, let alone people with weird backgrounds who want to retire in their thirties.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Irishtache on February 17, 2016, 05:15:50 PM
I think the reason behind the restrictions that are so badly affecting the Woods is that the Irish economy was shattered in the last 7 years. Along with an ageing population and general funding crisis in the health & social services, there is growing pressure on the nursing homes, which can cost over 1,000 per week. However, anyone who needs to enter residential care can do so as long as they contribute 80% of their income plus 7.5% of the value of their assets (limited to 3 years in the case of their home). So, retirees immigrating can be expected to need residential care sooner and the government is making sure they can cover the cost. Phew! Long winded.

As pointed out, Ireland has long enjoyed a special relationship ensuring free access to the UK for, mostly, employment purposes. Of course, the arrangement works both ways.

Do come over on vacation if you can!
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: cerat0n1a on February 18, 2016, 04:17:59 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean the feeling of connection to the rest of Europe is weird.  I meant that in light of 20th century UK - Irish relations (which pretty heavily featured violence and terrorism at times), that they let UK citizens in in a way, say, Danes aren't let in is interesting.

Although now that I type that out I wonder if it has more to do with letting Northern Irish live in the Republic than letting English/Welsh/Scottish live there.
Works both ways - Irish citizens get voting and other rights in the UK that don't apply to all other EU citizens. Just a pragmatic way of dealing with the consequences of history.

Danes (and any other EU citizens) are of course free to live, work or indeed retire in Ireland without any hindrance. Hence the (probably true) claim that Polish has overtaken Gaelic in numbers of fluent speakers in Ireland.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Parizade on February 18, 2016, 04:23:43 AM
Do come over on vacation if you can!

oh yes, every chance I get!
I can understand why anyone would want to stay there once they arrive, to me it felt like home from the moment I stepped off the plane.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Mr FrugalNL on February 18, 2016, 05:19:31 AM
Quote
Mr. and Mrs. Woods are presently contesting the INIS decision as their cash assets and projected income far exceed any potential expenses. They further state that they are debt free.

Good on them for contesting the decision. Changing a rule without notice and applying it to existing cases? That's just the type of monkey business that the European Court of Human Rights would take a dim view of. Let's hope the couple get a favourable decision from INIS or an Irish court and never actually have to go to the ECHR, because that could take years.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: cerat0n1a on February 18, 2016, 05:40:37 AM
So as a citizen of a France, I naively was under the impression that I would be eligible to FIRE wherever I well damn please, at any age, as long as it is within the EU. Not so! Ireland, since it's the example in this thread, wants me to either be engaged in employment, or prove that I would not be a burden on the state (and the bar is pretty high).

I don't think that's true (today at least). As an EU citizen, AFAIK, you have no restrictions on living in Ireland, working or not.

Brexit would be closely followed by Scotland leaving the UK, I imagine, and who knows what the Northern Irish would decide to do in that case. With approaching 3 million non-British/Irish EU citizens in the UK and 1 million Britons living in the EU (mainly in Spain & France), I think you're right that governments would quickly act to prevent big problems. I just can't see it happening. If the polls show Brexit looking at all possible, the falls in the FTSE and the pound will bring the voters in line pretty quickly.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Paul der Krake on February 18, 2016, 06:53:39 AM
So as a citizen of a France, I naively was under the impression that I would be eligible to FIRE wherever I well damn please, at any age, as long as it is within the EU. Not so! Ireland, since it's the example in this thread, wants me to either be engaged in employment, or prove that I would not be a burden on the state (and the bar is pretty high).

I don't think that's true (today at least). As an EU citizen, AFAIK, you have no restrictions on living in Ireland, working or not.
This page suggests otherwise:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/rights_of_residence_in_ireland/residence_rights_eu_national.html

Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: lizzzi on February 18, 2016, 07:24:22 AM
I noticed lots and lots of Eastern Europeans working in Dublin when I was there three months ago. It's kind of sad in a way, that we Americans who have strong cultural and family ties are not going to be able to live and work there...but the face of Europe has changed, and that's the way the cookie crumbles, I guess. As we've said a time or two upthread...long, repetitive tourist visits if we want to spend much time there. That would allow plenty of opportunities to participate in the pleasant aspects of the country.

It's not all shillelaghs and shamrocks, anyway, as any person who lives in the real world would know.  Lots of rural crime, and beggars and the homeless on the streets in Dublin. It's not Irish Disneyland. But still, a great place.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: cerat0n1a on February 18, 2016, 09:52:28 AM
otherwise:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/rights_of_residence_in_ireland/residence_rights_eu_national.html

Interesting - you're right. I still read that as them trying to put you off moving there just to claim benefits, rather than it being impossible to retire there. You don't have to get permission to enter and you don't have to register with anybody when you're there. You can freely buy Irish property. It's only if you plan to claim benefits in Ireland that they start to get interested.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on February 18, 2016, 10:11:32 AM
...but the face of Europe has changed, and that's the way the cookie crumbles, I guess.

Europe is the process of an economic and cultural transformation the likes of which haven't been seen since WWII. It's fascinating to watch but hard to predict.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Albert on February 18, 2016, 11:19:27 AM
...but the face of Europe has changed, and that's the way the cookie crumbles, I guess.

Europe is the process of an economic and cultural transformation the likes of which haven't been seen since WWII. It's fascinating to watch but hard to predict.

Indeed, but US is in the process of cultural and demographic transformation as well. In today's world countries which change little or not at all are mostly very poor...
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Albert on February 18, 2016, 03:11:28 PM
How much is a mustachian retiree going to contribute to the economy? Extremely low spending, no income to tax.  I'm not seeing what Ireland gains from allowing people to live there? 

And even if they somehow are excluded from services like healthcare, there are tons of government services- roads, police, fire, libraries, community centers etc that people would benefit from- so the government is going to want to collect taxes on its residents.

Not as much as a wealthy tourist, but still a non zero amount. If you say live on 25,000 euros/year in Ireland then all or most of it will also be spent there on various things. Ireland didn't spend a dime to educate such people nor would they be eligible for any benefits except the most basic as you mention and many of those would be available to short term visitor as well.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: mohawkbrah on February 19, 2016, 10:59:43 AM
How much is a mustachian retiree going to contribute to the economy? Extremely low spending, no income to tax.  I'm not seeing what Ireland gains from allowing people to live there? 

And even if they somehow are excluded from services like healthcare, there are tons of government services- roads, police, fire, libraries, community centers etc that people would benefit from- so the government is going to want to collect taxes on its residents.

taxes aren't everything ya know? :P

a mustachian is still bringing say $30k from outside the Irish economy (global investment income) into irish businesses when he pays for his utilities, food etc etc so it's still a benefit to the overall economy, if that certain mustachian starting to claim for benefits on the other hand, well...
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: I'm a red panda on February 19, 2016, 12:13:28 PM
How much is a mustachian retiree going to contribute to the economy? Extremely low spending, no income to tax.  I'm not seeing what Ireland gains from allowing people to live there? 

And even if they somehow are excluded from services like healthcare, there are tons of government services- roads, police, fire, libraries, community centers etc that people would benefit from- so the government is going to want to collect taxes on its residents.

taxes aren't everything ya know? :P

a mustachian is still bringing say $30k from outside the Irish economy (global investment income) into irish businesses when he pays for his utilities, food etc etc so it's still a benefit to the overall economy, if that certain mustachian starting to claim for benefits on the other hand, well...

Clearly the Irish government doesn't think the reward of their contribution to the economy is worth the risk of having to care for said person.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Albert on February 20, 2016, 09:45:47 AM
Obviously so, but it doesn't mean they are not making a mistake.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: nobodyspecial on February 21, 2016, 06:57:17 PM
Isn't there a scheme where, as an American, you can live and work in London but officially live in Ireland - and yet still pay almost no tax there ?
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Paul der Krake on February 21, 2016, 07:10:00 PM
Isn't there a scheme where, as an American, you can live and work in London but officially live in Ireland - and yet still pay almost no tax there ?
I see what you did there (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement)
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: daverobev on February 22, 2016, 12:47:21 PM
otherwise:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/rights_of_residence_in_ireland/residence_rights_eu_national.html

Interesting - you're right. I still read that as them trying to put you off moving there just to claim benefits, rather than it being impossible to retire there. You don't have to get permission to enter and you don't have to register with anybody when you're there. You can freely buy Irish property. It's only if you plan to claim benefits in Ireland that they start to get interested.

You can stay in Ireland for up to 3 months without restriction. If you plan to stay more than 3 months, you must either:

    Be engaged in economic activity (employed or self employed) or
    Have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that you do not become a burden on the social services of Ireland or
    Be enrolled as a student or vocational trainee or
    Be a family member of a Union citizen in one of the previous categories.

When you come to Ireland you do not need to register with the local immigration officer and you do not need a residence card to live here. If you wish to have a record of your residence in Ireland you can register with your embassy of your country in Ireland.

Pretty damn sure they can't kick you out unless they have a good reason to do so. They basically have no way of knowing when you arrived.

Not sure, but can (for example) a French person residing in Germany who becomes homeless be asked/forced to return to France, rather than being homeless?
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Canaan on February 22, 2016, 01:30:39 PM
If Brexit does happen and the EU implodes this year, Westminster will pass legislation overnight to let the 300,000+ French citizens in London remain where they are, while Paris does the same for British expats on French soil. They'll probably take their time for the Greeks and Spaniards though.

Not sure about the Greeks, but the UK would certainly not "take their time" with Spaniards, seeing as over 760,000 Britons live in Spain (more than in the USA and only less than in Australia):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/brits_abroad/html/ (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/brits_abroad/html/)

(Long time reader, first time poster. Awesome community!)
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: nobodyspecial on February 22, 2016, 03:12:22 PM
Not sure, but can (for example) a French person residing in Germany who becomes homeless be asked/forced to return to France, rather than being homeless?
No, you are in general allowed the same rights and benefits as a citizen.
There are rules about residence / substantive presence - so if you become unemployed in the UK you can't get on the first plane to say Denmark to get higher benefits - but generally you have to be treated in the same way as natives.
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: daverobev on February 23, 2016, 02:37:17 AM
Not sure, but can (for example) a French person residing in Germany who becomes homeless be asked/forced to return to France, rather than being homeless?
No, you are in general allowed the same rights and benefits as a citizen.
There are rules about residence / substantive presence - so if you become unemployed in the UK you can't get on the first plane to say Denmark to get higher benefits - but generally you have to be treated in the same way as natives.

Ok - and isn't that an EU thing? How come Ireland is allowed to be different?

I know the UK is lobbying for for restrictions on benefits for new migrants. Seems fair to me - you can't turn up somewhere and expect to be given, well, anything (real refugees aside).
Title: Re: No American Mustaches in Ireland
Post by: Doubleh on February 23, 2016, 03:06:42 AM
As far as the ability of Ireland to restrict the right of eu citizens to live there, this is only based on information from the Irish government website. So they can say whatever they like, but if it is in contravention of eu law, primarily the treaty of Rome which provides for free movement of goods, services, and people within the Union, they would not be able to enforce it.

The website of the EU, Europa.eu says:

If you are a pensioner you may live in any EU country if you have:

comprehensive health insurance cover there
sufficient income (from any source) to live without needing income support.

Note that income can be from any source and only seems to require that you do not need to claim income support from the host country. So while Ireland may be able to specify a hard and fast amount required for non eu nationals, I suspect for any eu citizen you should be pretty much fine as long as you're not trying to claim any state benefits.

There's also the option of being self employed, I haven't looked into what exactly that requires but the couple mentioned in the op might want to look at that route, maybe some freelancing or a blog could help to tick the necessary boxes.

As to the situation of Americans finding it more restrictive to live in Ireland than was formerly the case I do deplore that and generally feel anyone should be able to live wherever they like provided they obey the law and are not a burden on the state. But it seems pretty hypocritical to get upset about Ireland withdrawing a courtesy when the U.S. offers nothing similar to foreign citizens wishing to live there legally.