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Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: randymarsh on July 04, 2016, 10:12:21 PM

Title: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: randymarsh on July 04, 2016, 10:12:21 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/02/your-money/new-cars-are-too-expensive-for-the-typical-family-study-finds.html?_r=0

The logic is flawless. The typical (average?) new car costs more than the median income, therefore new cars are too expensive. I guess buying a used car or one of the numerous ~12K new cars is not an option?
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: less4success on July 04, 2016, 10:20:40 PM
The article does mention used cars at the end, saying they are often the best value. But then it also says they don't have the latest safety features...
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: gooki on July 04, 2016, 10:25:38 PM
Did you read the article? Yes most new cars are unffordable for typical families.

Salary of $88k per yer, $34k car considered unaffordable. Seem mustachican to me.

Salary $29k per year maximum affordable car $8k (used).

Although the article is shit, in not clearly stating the formula used when calculating afforability.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: randymarsh on July 04, 2016, 11:30:10 PM
Did you read the article? Yes most new cars are unffordable for typical families.

Salary of $88k per yer, $34k car considered affordable. Seem mustachican to me.

Salary $29k per year maximum affordable car $8k (used).

Although the article is shit, in not clearly stating the formula used when calculating afforability.

I felt the article came across as complainypants. They're saying an 88K income could max at 33K, but the average new car is 34K and implies that's inherently bad.  I just got a "woe is me" new cars are too expensive vibe, that's all.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: gooki on July 05, 2016, 04:51:07 AM
They are expensive. And only millionaires should be buying them.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: fattest_foot on July 05, 2016, 08:45:38 AM
The part of that article that kind of surprised me is that only 86% of new cars are financed. I really would have thought that number would be in the upper 90's.

I don't believe I know a single person that has bought a new car outright.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: slugline on July 05, 2016, 08:51:48 AM
The buying market is afflicted with Tiny Details Exaggeration Syndrome:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/26/cure-yourself-of-tiny-details-exaggeration-syndrome/

Frankly, today's cars are loaded with so much crap that doesn't fundamentally enhance the driving experience. This is especially true on the self-driving technology front. We're not yet at the point where a vehicle can reliably drive itself safely, but in the meantime we have half-assed "safety" systems that ultimately still require an alert driver to be in control. I've been thinking that it would be so much better for consumers if new cars based on 20-year-old designs were still rolling off assembly lines.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: FuturePrimitive on July 05, 2016, 09:07:18 AM

Salary of $88k per yer, $34k car considered affordable. Seem mustachican to me.

Wha...? $88k is only a little less than my household income and I'm sweating about buying a ~15k used car, let alone a $34k new car. And I wouldn't describe myself as all that mustachian either, more of a recovering spender that just happened to start a 401k relatively early (albeit underfunded).
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: Sibley on July 05, 2016, 10:06:39 AM
The buying market is afflicted with Tiny Details Exaggeration Syndrome:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/12/26/cure-yourself-of-tiny-details-exaggeration-syndrome/

Frankly, today's cars are loaded with so much crap that doesn't fundamentally enhance the driving experience. This is especially true on the self-driving technology front. We're not yet at the point where a vehicle can reliably drive itself safely, but in the meantime we have half-assed "safety" systems that ultimately still require an alert driver to be in control. I've been thinking that it would be so much better for consumers if new cars based on 20-year-old designs were still rolling off assembly lines.

I have a basic, no options (other than fancy color, I'll pay an extra $150 for that) car. Just fine for me.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: Making Cookies on July 05, 2016, 10:18:55 AM
We're going to be in the market for a new(er) car one of these days. Getting difficult to find a new(er) car that "only" has the equipment of a 15 year old car.

Finding one with a clutch is nearly impossible too unless a person wants a POWAH!!!! muscle car or sports car.

Cars are too expensive when a person of modest means shops for something "loaded" these days. A $45K bread-and-butter brand family car anyone?

Even the lowest trim packages are pretty darn nice.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: MoneyCat on July 06, 2016, 08:41:37 AM
When you can buy a used hybrid for $9000 or even a used fully electric car for as little as $5000, spending the money for a brand new car seems pretty silly. Most people, however, buy their cars with impressing their friends/family/neighbors as their primary motivation.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: randymarsh on July 06, 2016, 10:20:25 AM
When you can buy a used hybrid for $9000 or even a used fully electric car for as little as $5000, spending the money for a brand new car seems pretty silly. Most people, however, buy their cars with impressing their friends/family/neighbors as their primary motivation.

It's interesting too how people always claim they're buying a new car because of the reliability. So logically something like a base Versa or Corolla for under 20K (under 13K for a Versa) should be the choice. Instead they end up with a 40K F150 or loaded Accord.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: Kaydedid on July 06, 2016, 11:30:48 AM
The part of that article that kind of surprised me is that only 86% of new cars are financed. I really would have thought that number would be in the upper 90's.

I don't believe I know a single person that has bought a new car outright.
My mom buys brand-new cars every 10-15 years with cash (technically a check).  She does a ton of research and is an excellent horse trader. 

The salespeople love her.  /sarcasm

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: infogoon on July 06, 2016, 11:55:57 AM
My in-laws always pay cash for their cars, and then drive them for a decade or more. I think older people are more prone to do that. Maybe because they were buying cars back before financing was as common as it is now?
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: FuturePrimitive on July 06, 2016, 12:01:41 PM
My in-laws always pay cash for their cars, and then drive them for a decade or more. I think older people are more prone to do that. Maybe because they were buying cars back before financing was as common as it is now?
Eh, more likely because older people tend to have higher incomes and more savings, very few young people have enough socked away to pay cash for even a $5000 car, let alone a new one. Financing has been common since the 1920's.

 
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: MilesTeg on July 06, 2016, 12:09:47 PM
One of the problems with the inflation of housing, cars and anything else commonly financed is the bottoming out of lending rates.

Lots of those items have pumped up sales prices, as the companies know that with ultra low lending rates that can still have low payments for the buyers. We are buying a house that has a sales prices as we can get a 3.75% rate not a 6 or 7% rate that I would have got ~10 years ago in a better economy. At my price range that's $6-700 a month difference.

The same thing is happening with cars. When a person with decent credit can get a 1-2% car loan, the maker/dealer can pump up their sales price more.

It's sort of a wash, but probably preferable for buying sanity as people (who don't understand the math which is many) are more likely to question a high sales price rather than a loan with a big rate.

It will be interesting to see what happens once rates start going back up (probably soon). Will a decent house in a decent market actually lose value just because potential buyers will have to pay much bigger mortgages than today?
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: MgoSam on July 06, 2016, 12:17:54 PM
One of the problems with the inflation of housing, cars and anything else commonly financed is the bottoming out of lending rates.

Not to mention that I feel like easy credit makes the actual price of something not matter as much to consumers, and so people charge more for most everything.

When I was negotiating for my house, we were about $3000 off in price and a few people were wondering why I was willing to walk away over it as it meant maybe a  $15/month payment difference.

With credit cards, the pain of paying a bill is lessened and so people don't think much before agreeing to go out for dinner, and I feel like restaurants have caught onto this by raising their prices a ton. 
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: Chris22 on July 06, 2016, 12:49:28 PM
When I was negotiating for my house, we were about $3000 off in price and a few people were wondering why I was willing to walk away over it as it meant maybe a  $15/month payment difference.

I'm with those people.  Unless it was a very inexpensive house, or you weren't happy with it for other reasons, tanking a deal over 1-2-3% seems somewhat foolish and shortsighted. 
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: slugline on July 06, 2016, 01:38:03 PM
When I was negotiating for my house, we were about $3000 off in price and a few people were wondering why I was willing to walk away over it as it meant maybe a  $15/month payment difference.

I'm with those people.  Unless it was a very inexpensive house, or you weren't happy with it for other reasons, tanking a deal over 1-2-3% seems somewhat foolish and shortsighted.

But couldn't you also turn that around and ask if a seller is foolish/shortsighted for tanking a deal with an otherwise qualified buyer over a couple of percent?
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: SomedayStache on July 06, 2016, 01:46:19 PM

Salary of $88k per yer, $34k car considered affordable. Seem mustachican to me.


uhh....this is sarcasm right?  Surely you don't actually think spending >38% of the household's earning on a car could in any fashion be considered mustachian?

My family makes ~85k a year and our last car cost $4,000.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: Chris22 on July 06, 2016, 01:48:57 PM
When I was negotiating for my house, we were about $3000 off in price and a few people were wondering why I was willing to walk away over it as it meant maybe a  $15/month payment difference.

I'm with those people.  Unless it was a very inexpensive house, or you weren't happy with it for other reasons, tanking a deal over 1-2-3% seems somewhat foolish and shortsighted.

But couldn't you also turn that around and ask if a seller is foolish/shortsighted for tanking a deal with an otherwise qualified buyer over a couple of percent?

Maybe, maybe not.  Could be the difference between the seller walking away with $0, or enough for a downpayment on their next place, and not. 

FWIW, the last house we bought, I just bid asking.  It was less than we planned on spending, we liked the house well enough, and we were tired of having houses bought out from under us within days of it being listed.  We knew it was a fair price, so we just paid with no negotiating.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: MgoSam on July 06, 2016, 01:52:43 PM
When I was negotiating for my house, we were about $3000 off in price and a few people were wondering why I was willing to walk away over it as it meant maybe a  $15/month payment difference.

I'm with those people.  Unless it was a very inexpensive house, or you weren't happy with it for other reasons, tanking a deal over 1-2-3% seems somewhat foolish and shortsighted.

But couldn't you also turn that around and ask if a seller is foolish/shortsighted for tanking a deal with an otherwise qualified buyer over a couple of percent?

Maybe, maybe not.  Could be the difference between the seller walking away with $0, or enough for a downpayment on their next place, and not. 

FWIW, the last house we bought, I just bid asking.  It was less than we planned on spending, we liked the house well enough, and we were tired of having houses bought out from under us within days of it being listed.  We knew it was a fair price, so we just paid with no negotiating.

I should clarify, I went into the negotiation with a walk-away price, I wasn't willing to pay anything above it. When I was within $3000 of it, it was $2000 above this price. My Realtor said she would do what she could and managed to get the lower price, which was $1000 below my reservation price.

I would have approached this negotiation quite differently if the situation was different. This was a house that had been on the market for over a year and had it's priced slashed 6 times total by two different Realtors, and still wasn't receiving a whole lot of offers. If this had been a seller's market, I would have not been so hard on my negotiations, same for if the price for this house was absolutely amazing.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: mlejw6 on July 06, 2016, 01:55:33 PM
The biggest problem I see with the article is also the biggest problem people in general have with finances. The amount of car that is considered "affordable" is whatever monthly payment fits into the budget, rather than whatever total amount people can save up in a reasonable amount of time to buy outright.

People need to stop thinking that a low monthly payment means it is affordable.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: MilesTeg on July 06, 2016, 02:06:30 PM
When I was negotiating for my house, we were about $3000 off in price and a few people were wondering why I was willing to walk away over it as it meant maybe a  $15/month payment difference.

I'm with those people.  Unless it was a very inexpensive house, or you weren't happy with it for other reasons, tanking a deal over 1-2-3% seems somewhat foolish and shortsighted.

But couldn't you also turn that around and ask if a seller is foolish/shortsighted for tanking a deal with an otherwise qualified buyer over a couple of percent?

Depends on the market. My area is hopping right now. Most homes sell within 2-3 days on the market, and some homes are getting bid up 10-15% over asking.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: slugline on July 06, 2016, 08:46:03 PM
When I was negotiating for my house, we were about $3000 off in price and a few people were wondering why I was willing to walk away over it as it meant maybe a  $15/month payment difference.

I'm with those people.  Unless it was a very inexpensive house, or you weren't happy with it for other reasons, tanking a deal over 1-2-3% seems somewhat foolish and shortsighted.

But couldn't you also turn that around and ask if a seller is foolish/shortsighted for tanking a deal with an otherwise qualified buyer over a couple of percent?

Depends on the market. My area is hopping right now. Most homes sell within 2-3 days on the market, and some homes are getting bid up 10-15% over asking.

Yes, of course it depends on the market. I didn't see a mention the when/where of MgoSam's purchase, so I was attempting to question the quick assumption that any difference in price negotiation is expected to be made up by MgoSam as the buyer.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: gooki on July 06, 2016, 09:32:14 PM

Salary of $88k per yer, $34k car considered affordable. Seem mustachican to me.


uhh....this is sarcasm right?  Surely you don't actually think spending >38% of the household's earning on a car could in any fashion be considered mustachian?

My family makes ~85k a year and our last car cost $4,000.

No, just a typo due to autocorrect, was meant to say unaffordable, not affordable.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: paddedhat on July 06, 2016, 10:14:31 PM
The part of that article that kind of surprised me is that only 86% of new cars are financed. I really would have thought that number would be in the upper 90's.

I don't believe I know a single person that has bought a new car outright.

Three years ago we bought a new Honda CRV, and wrote a check for it. The wife thought that she could bargain a bit better since it was a cash deal. The sales guy told us it didn't matter, and that a significant portion of CRV buyers pay cash. Since then I have read that CRV buyers are the most likely to pay cash, of all new car buyers in the states. I don't know how closely it parallels vehicle choice, but I would bet that a hell of a lot of Forester, Outback , Camry, Accord, CRV, etc.... buyers pay cash, as compared to Camaro,  1/2 ton pick-up, etc.... buyers.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: Helvegen on July 07, 2016, 01:05:31 PM
I've never bought a new car or had any interest in buying one. I do like to see articles or information about the cost of new cars from time to time. It helps me see if we are carrying the correct amount of car insurance on our policies. I was floored to find out how many $70-$100k cars are rolling around my area. The most we have ever paid for a car was $4000 and $3600 of that was an insurance payout for our old car that someone totaled.

When we were looking on CL for a car to replace the totaled one, we found several sellers lamenting how the used car market had collapsed from where it was a few years back. No one wants to buy a CL clunker when anyone with a pulse can go to a dealership and get financed.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: paddedhat on July 07, 2016, 02:31:41 PM
I've never bought a new car or had any interest in buying one. I do like to see articles or information about the cost of new cars from time to time. It helps me see if we are carrying the correct amount of car insurance on our policies. I was floored to find out how many $70-$100k cars are rolling around my area. The most we have ever paid for a car was $4000 and $3600 of that was an insurance payout for our old car that someone totaled.

When we were looking on CL for a car to replace the totaled one, we found several sellers lamenting how the used car market had collapsed from where it was a few years back. No one wants to buy a CL clunker when anyone with a pulse can go to a dealership and get financed.

It's amazing what the "finance anybody that can fog a mirror" standards have done to the market. The New CRV I mentioned was largely  paid for by a $19,600 insurance check after our last one (three years old, 75K miles) was totaled by a deer.  Two points here. We got an astounding amount from the insurance co. and it was a result of people paying stupid amounts for slightly used, top brand compact SUVS.  I could of used the check for a slightly used, grossly overpriced replacement, but added $4K to end up with a brand new one. Three years newer, and with 40-70k less miles. Much of this market distortion is a result of banks and dealers who make a ton on used cars and financing them, thanks to really stupid decisions made by the buying public.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: Metric Mouse on July 08, 2016, 01:17:44 AM
I've never bought a new car or had any interest in buying one. I do like to see articles or information about the cost of new cars from time to time. It helps me see if we are carrying the correct amount of car insurance on our policies. I was floored to find out how many $70-$100k cars are rolling around my area. The most we have ever paid for a car was $4000 and $3600 of that was an insurance payout for our old car that someone totaled.

When we were looking on CL for a car to replace the totaled one, we found several sellers lamenting how the used car market had collapsed from where it was a few years back. No one wants to buy a CL clunker when anyone with a pulse can go to a dealership and get financed.

It's amazing what the "finance anybody that can fog a mirror" standards have done to the market. The New CRV I mentioned was largely  paid for by a $19,600 insurance check after our last one (three years old, 75K miles) was totaled by a deer.  Two points here. We got an astounding amount from the insurance co.

The deer had insurance?
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: paddedhat on July 08, 2016, 10:01:02 AM
I've never bought a new car or had any interest in buying one. I do like to see articles or information about the cost of new cars from time to time. It helps me see if we are carrying the correct amount of car insurance on our policies. I was floored to find out how many $70-$100k cars are rolling around my area. The most we have ever paid for a car was $4000 and $3600 of that was an insurance payout for our old car that someone totaled.

When we were looking on CL for a car to replace the totaled one, we found several sellers lamenting how the used car market had collapsed from where it was a few years back. No one wants to buy a CL clunker when anyone with a pulse can go to a dealership and get financed.

It's amazing what the "finance anybody that can fog a mirror" standards have done to the market. The New CRV I mentioned was largely  paid for by a $19,600 insurance check after our last one (three years old, 75K miles) was totaled by a deer.  Two points here. We got an astounding amount from the insurance co.

The deer had insurance?

No, the deer got away with this one. Seriously, when you live in rural PA. at some point you end up hitting a deer. The wife and I are a bit older than a lot of the crowd here, but in our combined driving experience we have hit roughly eight deer, a turkey or two, and one wild dog. Typically it's over before you even know it happened. They rocket out of thick woods, and you hear a noise, everything from a thump to a deafening bang. My father even had one run across his roof. He was driving an old VW bug next to a wooded embankment, and a deer jumped off the small cliff he was passing. Instead of landing on the black top, I imagine that it was pretty shocked to be bouncing off a car roof. As long as you have deer hair, or blood evident on the vehicle,  or a police report validating the event, insurance companies cover the damage without any hassle. The vast majority of these are fender bender grade events, but sadly, every year a handful of them are fatal to occupants of the vehicles.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: mm1970 on July 08, 2016, 10:17:56 AM
I've never bought a new car or had any interest in buying one. I do like to see articles or information about the cost of new cars from time to time. It helps me see if we are carrying the correct amount of car insurance on our policies. I was floored to find out how many $70-$100k cars are rolling around my area. The most we have ever paid for a car was $4000 and $3600 of that was an insurance payout for our old car that someone totaled.

When we were looking on CL for a car to replace the totaled one, we found several sellers lamenting how the used car market had collapsed from where it was a few years back. No one wants to buy a CL clunker when anyone with a pulse can go to a dealership and get financed.

It's amazing what the "finance anybody that can fog a mirror" standards have done to the market. The New CRV I mentioned was largely  paid for by a $19,600 insurance check after our last one (three years old, 75K miles) was totaled by a deer.  Two points here. We got an astounding amount from the insurance co.

The deer had insurance?

No, the deer got away with this one. Seriously, when you live in rural PA. at some point you end up hitting a deer. The wife and I are a bit older than a lot of the crowd here, but in our combined driving experience we have hit roughly eight deer, a turkey or two, and one wild dog. Typically it's over before you even know it happened. They rocket out of thick woods, and you hear a noise, everything from a thump to a deafening bang. My father even had one run across his roof. He was driving an old VW bug next to a wooded embankment, and a deer jumped off the small cliff he was passing. Instead of landing on the black top, I imagine that it was pretty shocked to be bouncing off a car roof. As long as you have deer hair, or blood evident on the vehicle,  or a police report validating the event, insurance companies cover the damage without any hassle. The vast majority of these are fender bender grade events, but sadly, every year a handful of them are fatal to occupants of the vehicles.
I grew up in Western PA (Clarion County) and can speak to that.  I've never hit a deer, but decades ago my boyfriend (who was from NY state) did when we were home visiting from college.  Luckily it was just a dent in his already-crappy and dented Dodge Omni.

I was just visiting last week for a few days and was *very* alert while driving the winding roads in the forest.  I imagine I was pissing off the locals by driving 45-50 instead of 55.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: paddedhat on July 08, 2016, 10:29:27 AM
I've never bought a new car or had any interest in buying one. I do like to see articles or information about the cost of new cars from time to time. It helps me see if we are carrying the correct amount of car insurance on our policies. I was floored to find out how many $70-$100k cars are rolling around my area. The most we have ever paid for a car was $4000 and $3600 of that was an insurance payout for our old car that someone totaled.

When we were looking on CL for a car to replace the totaled one, we found several sellers lamenting how the used car market had collapsed from where it was a few years back. No one wants to buy a CL clunker when anyone with a pulse can go to a dealership and get financed.

It's amazing what the "finance anybody that can fog a mirror" standards have done to the market. The New CRV I mentioned was largely  paid for by a $19,600 insurance check after our last one (three years old, 75K miles) was totaled by a deer.  Two points here. We got an astounding amount from the insurance co.

The deer had insurance?

No, the deer got away with this one. Seriously, when you live in rural PA. at some point you end up hitting a deer. The wife and I are a bit older than a lot of the crowd here, but in our combined driving experience we have hit roughly eight deer, a turkey or two, and one wild dog. Typically it's over before you even know it happened. They rocket out of thick woods, and you hear a noise, everything from a thump to a deafening bang. My father even had one run across his roof. He was driving an old VW bug next to a wooded embankment, and a deer jumped off the small cliff he was passing. Instead of landing on the black top, I imagine that it was pretty shocked to be bouncing off a car roof. As long as you have deer hair, or blood evident on the vehicle,  or a police report validating the event, insurance companies cover the damage without any hassle. The vast majority of these are fender bender grade events, but sadly, every year a handful of them are fatal to occupants of the vehicles.
I grew up in Western PA (Clarion County) and can speak to that.  I've never hit a deer, but decades ago my boyfriend (who was from NY state) did when we were home visiting from college.  Luckily it was just a dent in his already-crappy and dented Dodge Omni.

I was just visiting last week for a few days and was *very* alert while driving the winding roads in the forest.  I imagine I was pissing off the locals by driving 45-50 instead of 55.

I know the feeling. I was once piloting a van full of volunteers on a rural highway. I watched a buck up on a steep hillside, next to the highway. He was up against a tall fence and I knew he was agitated and about to bolt. I could tell because of his body language, and I could see his leg muscles twitching. I stood on the brakes, and he shot down the bank, crossing a few feet in front of the van, going like a rocket. After everybody grabbed spilled coffees off the floor, and got themselves back together, somebody piped up and said, "are you some kind of a deer whisperer?" I laughed and said, "Nope, just using one of my Pennsyltucky survival skills"
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: Metric Mouse on July 08, 2016, 01:16:53 PM
Yeah, I live in a similar area. Everyone hits a deer at some point. I just hope I'm not on my motorcycle when it happens.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: Making Cookies on July 08, 2016, 01:25:20 PM
We upgraded the high beam lighting on our family hauler with aux driving lights years ago. First trip home from grandma's house after dark and there are all these eyeballs looking at us from the road sides. Deer eating the grass on the road shoulder along the edge of the woods. We suspected they were there, occasionally saw them. I slowed our average pace after dark. Try to leave before dark. Long way from help if something bad happened.

We have hit a deer out there once.

I think deer and squirrels are running the same software.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: Kaspian on July 08, 2016, 01:45:37 PM
When I grew up, people used to intentionally save money for years and years in order to buy a new car, not just walk into a showroom and complain everything's too expensive.  Planning?  Anyone here remember the mythical beast known as "planning"?  Gone the way of unicorns and dragons, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: Metric Mouse on July 08, 2016, 07:17:37 PM
When I grew up, people used to intentionally save money for years and years in order to buy a new car, not just walk into a showroom and complain everything's too expensive.  Planning?  Anyone here remember the mythical beast known as "planning"?  Gone the way of unicorns and dragons, I'm afraid.

Planning? I have a cell phone. Just text me what you're doing right this moment and I'll decide if I want to join you. And if you post a picture of your new car, I can google the closest car lot while we're driving there. What the hell is this inefficient 'planning' phase you speak of? Action, all the time, full throttle.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: alsoknownasDean on July 08, 2016, 08:13:15 PM
The part of that article that kind of surprised me is that only 86% of new cars are financed. I really would have thought that number would be in the upper 90's.

I don't believe I know a single person that has bought a new car outright.

Does that include fleet buyers?

My grandfather has told me previously how much his first (used) car cost when he bought it, compared to incomes at the time. Compared to then, cars are dirt cheap now.

One thing I noticed in the US is that most car advertisements show the monthly payment rather than the retail price. Here car advertisements are legally required to show the driveaway price.

I just had a look at the price of a new Toyota Camry or Corolla today compared to 20 years ago. The 2016 Camry and Corolla are about the same price for the basic model as the 1996 models were new. When one takes into account the higher incomes of today, and the progress in car technology since 1996...
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: SwordGuy on July 08, 2016, 08:37:11 PM
Median new car price IS too expensive for most people to buy.

That is because they are buying luxury cars instead of transportation cars.   The $12-13k new cars are really quite spiffy, too.

And, of course, less expensive used cars, particularly low mileage ones, are a bargain.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: randymarsh on July 09, 2016, 02:15:11 PM
Median new car price IS too expensive for most people to buy.

That is because they are buying luxury cars instead of transportation cars.   The $12-13k new cars are really quite spiffy, too.

And, of course, less expensive used cars, particularly low mileage ones, are a bargain.

Definitely this. I test drove a brand new Civic (19K) a few years ago (because I was stupid) and it was insanely luxurious. The low end of the market today is like buying a spaceship when you compare it to what was available in the 90s. Even things like bluetooth and push button start are now standard on tons of base models.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: mm1970 on July 10, 2016, 10:16:00 AM
Median new car price IS too expensive for most people to buy.

That is because they are buying luxury cars instead of transportation cars.   The $12-13k new cars are really quite spiffy, too.

And, of course, less expensive used cars, particularly low mileage ones, are a bargain.

Definitely this. I test drove a brand new Civic (19K) a few years ago (because I was stupid) and it was insanely luxurious. The low end of the market today is like buying a spaceship when you compare it to what was available in the 90s. Even things like bluetooth and push button start are now standard on tons of base models.
I bought one of those (paid cash), though it was new (in 2009), so no bluetooth or anything.  And yes, luxurious. My boss asked why I didn't buy a bigger car, like and Accord.  When I drove it to work he said "nevermind, it's the size of the old 90's accord I used to have!".
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: Telecaster on July 10, 2016, 12:01:39 PM

I felt the article came across as complainypants. They're saying an 88K income could max at 33K, but the average new car is 34K and implies that's inherently bad.  I just got a "woe is me" new cars are too expensive vibe, that's all.

I didn't read it like that.  It basically said new cars are too expensive for most people (which is true) and then said people longer loans to in order to afford the payments.   The article then warned if you have to get a longer than a five year loan, you can't afford the car.  Which is good advice.

Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: randymarsh on July 10, 2016, 12:20:14 PM
Definitely this. I test drove a brand new Civic (19K) a few years ago (because I was stupid) and it was insanely luxurious. The low end of the market today is like buying a spaceship when you compare it to what was available in the 90s. Even things like bluetooth and push button start are now standard on tons of base models.
I bought one of those (paid cash), though it was new (in 2009), so no bluetooth or anything.  And yes, luxurious. My boss asked why I didn't buy a bigger car, like and Accord.  When I drove it to work he said "nevermind, it's the size of the old 90's accord I used to have!".

The Civic after 2010 got a lot of upgrades. I test drove a 12 or 13 and I think it was like 1 trim up from base and it had bluetooth with steering wheel controls, a fancy color MPG screen, and a bunch of other stuff. Honda had let it become pretty no frills, but Hyundai and Kia were busy making that stuff standard. I think it was luring younger buyers away.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: exterous on July 11, 2016, 08:29:09 AM

The Civic after 2010 got a lot of upgrades. I test drove a 12 or 13 and I think it was like 1 trim up from base and it had bluetooth with steering wheel controls, a fancy color MPG screen, and a bunch of other stuff. Honda had let it become pretty no frills, but Hyundai and Kia were busy making that stuff standard. I think it was luring younger buyers away.

I think you mean 2011. 2011 was the end of the 8th generation Civic and our 2011 civic LX-S doesn't have bluetooth or a fancy MPG screen.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: randymarsh on July 11, 2016, 09:47:41 AM

The Civic after 2010 got a lot of upgrades. I test drove a 12 or 13 and I think it was like 1 trim up from base and it had bluetooth with steering wheel controls, a fancy color MPG screen, and a bunch of other stuff. Honda had let it become pretty no frills, but Hyundai and Kia were busy making that stuff standard. I think it was luring younger buyers away.

I think you mean 2011. 2011 was the end of the 8th generation Civic and our 2011 civic LX-S doesn't have bluetooth or a fancy MPG screen.

Oh I think you're right. There was a slight redesign in 2011 but it looks like it was mostly exterior stuff.
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: thd7t on July 11, 2016, 11:15:01 AM

The Civic after 2010 got a lot of upgrades. I test drove a 12 or 13 and I think it was like 1 trim up from base and it had bluetooth with steering wheel controls, a fancy color MPG screen, and a bunch of other stuff. Honda had let it become pretty no frills, but Hyundai and Kia were busy making that stuff standard. I think it was luring younger buyers away.

I think you mean 2011. 2011 was the end of the 8th generation Civic and our 2011 civic LX-S doesn't have bluetooth or a fancy MPG screen.

Oh I think you're right. There was a slight redesign in 2011 but it looks like it was mostly exterior stuff.
The 2012 Civic was the first time that that model had bad reviews in ages!
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: exterous on July 11, 2016, 01:28:02 PM
The 2012 Civic was the first time that that model had bad reviews in ages!
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Heh that was one of the reasons I went with the 2011 over a 2012. Last of the generation so the hope was that the bugs would be ironed out instead of a redesign that might introduce new issues. Not to mention a more well established parts market. Worked out really well on my last of the seventh gen 05 civic and seems to be doing well for 11 so far
Title: Re: New cars are too expensive for typical family "study" finds
Post by: Making Cookies on July 13, 2016, 08:47:21 AM

I felt the article came across as complainypants. They're saying an 88K income could max at 33K, but the average new car is 34K and implies that's inherently bad.  I just got a "woe is me" new cars are too expensive vibe, that's all.

I didn't read it like that.  It basically said new cars are too expensive for most people (which is true) and then said people longer loans to in order to afford the payments.   The article then warned if you have to get a longer than a five year loan, you can't afford the car.  Which is good advice.

And some people's planning is to just have a perpetual car payment anyhow. I know of one person that pays off one vehicle about the time the itch for a new car hits. Or their neglect of their car begins to catch up with them and they face some expensive repairs.

A lifetime of payments. Ugh!