The Money Mustache Community

Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: Slee_stack on July 24, 2018, 01:33:54 PM

Title: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Slee_stack on July 24, 2018, 01:33:54 PM
Quote
From wikipedia:  A NEET or neet is a young person who is "Not in Education, Employment, or Training". The acronym NEET was first used in the United Kingdom but its use has spread to other countries and regions including Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and the United States.


Accidentally came across this acronym today when I landed on a Reddit NEET forum https://www.reddit.com/r/NEET/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/NEET/) and couldn't grasp the posts that were there-in.  I honestly thought it was a bunch of people trolling.

It turns out that, No, many of these folks really have aspirations of remaining NEET.  I just couldn't wrap my head around it.

Just one interesting thread there-in: https://www.reddit.com/r/NEET/comments/90vn08/do_you_guys_want_to_escape_the_neet_life/
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: PoutineLover on July 24, 2018, 01:44:06 PM
Well that's a depressing corner of the internet.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: Slee_stack on July 24, 2018, 01:54:58 PM
There's definitely a lot of woe-is-me externalizing going on there.

Its the economy's fault!  (huh?)
Inflation is bad!  (huh?)
If you work , you lose free time and health! (hmmm)

No doubt, there's some mental illness and depression issues mixed in there.

At the same time though, entitlement and planning to live off other people's money is pretty consistent...and generally acceptable.

I was particularly taken aback by one poster who said their biggest concern is not having money if their parents died.....  How about concern over your parents actually dying!?!
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: AMandM on July 24, 2018, 02:48:29 PM
NEET = FDRE
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 24, 2018, 07:57:56 PM
"Neet" was also the brand name for a woman's hair remover back in the 1980's. I don't know if it's still around.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: maizeman on July 24, 2018, 08:04:21 PM
I mean based on the literal definition of the acronym itself, aren't a lot of us aiming to ultimately be NEET? That said, moving away from the word for word definition and into the posters on that subreddit: Ugh.

Slee_Stack, I think the below might have been one of the replies to the same poster you found.

Quote
That's funny, my parents suddenly dying is the one thing that gives me any hope. After he's gone I would have more than enough money to buy my own place and live extremely cheaply. I would probably have to get some shitty part time job eventually but if I could actually afford to live on my own I could live with that.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: AccidentalMiser on July 24, 2018, 08:22:17 PM
Every generation has these people, only now they can easily band together without leaving their parents' basements.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: Slee_stack on July 25, 2018, 08:36:19 AM
I mean based on the literal definition of the acronym itself, aren't a lot of us aiming to ultimately be NEET? That said, moving away from the word for word definition and into the posters on that subreddit: Ugh.

Slee_Stack, I think the below might have been one of the replies to the same poster you found.

Quote
That's funny, my parents suddenly dying is the one thing that gives me any hope. After he's gone I would have more than enough money to buy my own place and live extremely cheaply. I would probably have to get some shitty part time job eventually but if I could actually afford to live on my own I could live with that.
Young is a relative term, so yes, a literal interpretation of NEET describes many of us here.  I hope I don't ever get lumped in with that though.

The quote you found is even more disturbing.  Yuck.  Do people really think this way?  How awful.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: Slee_stack on July 25, 2018, 08:41:05 AM
NEET = FDRE

I propose 'DIRE'

Dependent Indefinitely Remaining Entitled  :P

Afterall,  this particular group isn't retiring from anything.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 25, 2018, 09:07:29 AM
I mean based on the literal definition of the acronym itself, aren't a lot of us aiming to ultimately be NEET? That said, moving away from the word for word definition and into the posters on that subreddit: Ugh.

Slee_Stack, I think the below might have been one of the replies to the same poster you found.

Quote
That's funny, my parents suddenly dying is the one thing that gives me any hope. After he's gone I would have more than enough money to buy my own place and live extremely cheaply. I would probably have to get some shitty part time job eventually but if I could actually afford to live on my own I could live with that.
Young is a relative term, so yes, a literal interpretation of NEET describes many of us here.  I hope I don't ever get lumped in with that though.

The quote you found is even more disturbing.  Yuck.  Do people really think this way?  How awful.

Sadly, yes.

I browsed through some of the posts on that board and the evidence suggests that, yes, there's quite the little cluster of them. Many of them have mental illnesses such as anxiety and depression, but the disorders are not being sufficiently treated because the "NEET lifestyle" of living in someone else's home, doing no work, and contributing nothing to the household is easier. They are being enabled by other people, typically parents, whom they invariably resent or even despise. They do not wish to work because they believe that the only available jobs are "soul killing", however they systematically reject every other course of action that could lead to independence. They are self-absorbed enough (possibly as a consequence of the various mental illnesses) to not really consider the extent to which their freeloading affects others. They *despise* the people who support them and regard them with contempt.

Their world view is kind of like my daughter's, except introverted. All the NEETs want is to stay in their own rooms and only come out to eat and consume, or possibly buy things although there's a recurring theme of frugality because many of them just don't have money available because of the work decisions they've made. By contrast, my daughter is almost hyperactive socially wants to be constantly going places (just not school or work) and doing things (just not productive or financially viable activity).
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: omachi on July 25, 2018, 09:16:32 AM
It's been something of a big deal in Japan for a while now, where the term is officially hikikomori, with something like 700,000 individuals shutting themselves in for 6+ months according to their government. It's a big enough problem that these sorts of things are addressed in various media from novels to anime, from one of a character's relatives that's a shut in to the protagonist trying to overcome their situation. It's prevalent enough to have become something of a trope.

I'm not sure how it gets to that without somebody enabling, and as introverted as I can be, I don't really understand why somebody would want to be so dependent. I can't find it anything other than sad.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: Just Joe on July 25, 2018, 09:33:27 AM
How would the parent break the cycle?
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: PoutineLover on July 25, 2018, 09:59:32 AM
I know somebody who kinda fits that description, and it is sad to see. I can see how in some ways, he does need help that he is not receiving. But in other ways, he is not willing to get a job, hardly ever leaves the house, never has any money, and doesn't even like his parents who support him 100%. I couldn't stay friends with him, at a certain point I do believe people need to help themselves and stop blaming everyone else, and it was too draining for me. Is there anything to be done for people who really don't want to do anything to change their situation? Why do their parents continue to enable this?
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: RWD on July 25, 2018, 10:18:03 AM
It's been something of a big deal in Japan for a while now, where the term is officially hikikomori, with something like 700,000 individuals shutting themselves in for 6+ months according to their government. It's a big enough problem that these sorts of things are addressed in various media from novels to anime, from one of a character's relatives that's a shut in to the protagonist trying to overcome their situation. It's prevalent enough to have become something of a trope.

Hikikomori is specifically social withdrawal/isolation. While a lot of NEETs may be hikikomori they do not mean the same thing.

I've noticed the trend of NEETs in anime over the last decade. It's so weird to me that this is often glorified with characters proud of being a NEET.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: rdaneel0 on July 25, 2018, 10:48:03 AM
JFC that's depressing. If we were in the wild I would eat these people.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: omachi on July 25, 2018, 10:58:50 AM
It's been something of a big deal in Japan for a while now, where the term is officially hikikomori, with something like 700,000 individuals shutting themselves in for 6+ months according to their government. It's a big enough problem that these sorts of things are addressed in various media from novels to anime, from one of a character's relatives that's a shut in to the protagonist trying to overcome their situation. It's prevalent enough to have become something of a trope.

Hikikomori is specifically social withdrawal/isolation. While a lot of NEETs may be hikikomori they do not mean the same thing.

I've noticed the trend of NEETs in anime over the last decade. It's so weird to me that this is often glorified with characters proud of being a NEET.

While perhaps technically different, the connotation of NEET I've always seen as being withdrawn rather than just unemployed overlaps heavily. Agreed that they might not line up in some sort of government accounting, but as a social phenomenon they're similar enough to warrant mention.

The anime thing is definitely weird, but I guess when over half a percent of your nation's population is a shut-in, media is going to grapple with the situation.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: mm1970 on July 25, 2018, 11:06:15 AM
How would the parent break the cycle?
I'm not sure that a parent can break the cycle.

Aside from kicking your children out of the house, like that guy in Rochester.  But then, they may mooch off of someone else.

And it does seem like there is a fair bit of depression and mental illness there.  So, if they aren't getting proper treatment for that, how do you get better?  You probably don't.

We have a massive issue in my town with homelessness.  Some of it is cost of living, but mental illness and drug addiction are also huge parts of it.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 25, 2018, 12:37:10 PM
How would the parent break the cycle?

I made it stop with what I call "Escape Plan Alpha".

My daughter is more of an extrovert than a hikikomori, because her big thing was to go gallivanting to hang out with lowlifes instead of going to school or work. She actually had lowlife enablers willing to pick her up from school where she'd dash out between classes or manipulate a classmate into ditching school. Between the fact she stole most of her college savings out of the account and used it to support a druggie boyfriend, and the fact that there were adults who were willing to lie and cover for her while allowing her to be in their homes instead of in school, she was able to dodge consequences for quite a while.

Here are the details of Escape Plan Alpha.

First, and this happened many months before she reached her legal majority, I told her that her actions had consequences. If she continued to refuse to hold up her end of the deal she'd made with me to get the car (have a job, pay for repairs, attend school, obey traffic laws-- not one of these conditions was kept), I would no longer hold up my end of the deal: I would no longer pay for gas to get her to school. If she was not in a high school or GED program and actually attending classes and putting in a full-time effort studying, I would not be paying her insurance after she turned 18.

Her response was to drop out of another school program to go live with a lowlife friend and take care of the lowlife friend's kids, driving them to school instead of going to school herself. Lowlife friend the same one involved in the piggy parkour incident last year: my daughter decided she was Just Wonderful and that I'd been So Mean to kick her and her six (now seven) little bastards out of my house. Lowlife friend decided it was Just Fine to allow my daughter to be in her home instead of at school.

Second, I told her that if she wanted to live elsewhere she was free to do so, and that because she had dropped out of three different high schools and refused to enroll in or attend a GED class, I no longer considered her a student so my obligation to support her financially was done once she turned 18. With the exception of medical expenses I would be providing no further support at the start of the new year, and would no longer be providing her with money for gas or food. Given that she was only using me as storage, an ATM, and a punching bag I told her she could have continued access to those rooms and eat meals with me only if she signed a rental agreement and did one hour a day of work in lieu of rent. I told her that, besides that, I'd be willing to pay her $x (well above minimum wage) per hour for help with yard work and that I'd apply it to her vehicle insurance or whatever else she wished. I gave her a copy of both agreements to read over.

She responded by ignoring the agreements and continuing with business as usual. When my mother came to visit over the winter holidays to help my daughter celebrate her 18th, my daughter made a big deal of throwing tantrums and treating my mother very badly. I won't bore you with the details except to point out that she finally succeeded in alienating every last member of my family with her ongoing verbal abuse and shenanigans. We celebrated her birthday in style, with a family meal at a very nice restaurant where we also invited her boyfriend. She received, as gifts, a new suit of clothing (she threw a tantrum because I wouldn't buy her another pair of runners to go with the 30+ pairs she already had), some gear related to her favorite football team, and a new case and screen protector for her cellular phone which was the gift from my parents.

Third, I enforced what I said I'd do. She went out of her way to be as big of a brat as possible on the Christmas holiday, which is an entirely separate story, but when she came by late at night after a day of gallivanting to ask for gas money, I asked her to do some yard work in exchange for it. She threw a gigantic tantrum, told me she was leaving for good, and I said: "That actually suits me." She stormed out, slamming the door so hard that the latch broke.

Fourth, on zero day (which she initiated by storming out and announcing she was leaving for good) I made sure she couldn't gain unsupervised access to my home. The next morning, my mother and I woke up early and made a hardware store run. I changed the locks and reprogrammed the access code to the garage door opener, and informed the Neighborhood Watch that she was moving out.

Fifth, I acted instantly to eliminate the legal liability: I contacted my daughter and made an appointment to meet her at the motor vehicles division to have my name removed from the title and registration of her car so that it was transferred completely into her name. I paid for this.

(Background: This was actually the most critical step in the entire process. In my home state, if there's a vehicle registered to your address you can be held legally and financially liable for damage done by the driver of that vehicle. One of the problems I had-- a misstep related to the acquisition of the vehicle-- was that my daughter's name was also on the title so I couldn't just sell it when she started lending it out to her lowlife junkie friends after she'd explicitly promised not to let anyone else behind the wheel. Damage done by some moron I'd never met could therefore result in a successful case against me, and I for one didn't care to lose my 'stache and live under a bridge because of something done by an addled junkie I'd never met.)

Her response to being basically given a car was to bitch me out in front of the cashier when I asked when she'd be by to pick up her belongings. Not a word of thanks, obviously. At this point I didn't expect it from her.

Sixth, I started the purge process. I bought some boxes to pack up the clothes, makeup, and garbage she'd flung all over both her bedrooms, which were trashed.

"You realize it's going to take weeks to wash and sort all of this," my mom told me. I was aware of this, having repeatedly washed and sorted all the clothing in my daughter's second bedroom to organize it, only to have the little twat rummage through it or throw a temper tantrum and mangle it all up.

"Wash? Sort? No, we're just going to stuff things into boxes as we go. She likes things to be messy, and spilled on, and she just loves to have garbage and food crumbs in with her clothing, so that's obviously her system of organization. Let's not mess with it. If two shoes are in separate rooms, just put them in separate boxes."

Packing took a day and a half. I did wrap up the fragile or valuable things and label the box contents. There were about 20 boxes including things she'd already taken to support her couch surfing lifestyle. Most of her valuable items like jewelry were missing. Whether she took them earlier or had sold them for money to gallivant with or to pay her boyfriend's drug debts, I didn't know. Nor did I care.

Seventh, I took two hostages: the rest of my daughter's belongings, and the last of the money I'd set aside for her college savings, which would have been enough for a frugal person renting a room to get by for 5 to 6 months even while paying for car insurance. Having secured them, I contacted two people who bitterly hated my daughter and asked for help moving her furniture and belongings out. They were there, truck and all, with bells on. It took two trips to move her bedroom furniture, all the boxes, the microwave, and the other belongings I'd bought her. There wasn't quite enough to furnish an apartment but more than enough to furnish a room for rent. We moved it all into the storage facility.

Eighth, after the move was complete and my accomplices had made their escape, I called my daughter and told her I'd rented a storage facility, and would release the last of her college money in exchange for her assuming the storage contract.

Ninth, I met her at the storage facility, gave her the key, showed her where her stuff was boxed up, and pointed out where the fragile or semi-valuable items like pictures were packed. I told her that the large, heavy mirror didn't make it because it was damaged when we tried to get the smeared makeup off of it. That was an exaggeration. The mirror is alive and well at my home; my mom was able to restore it and get it looking mostly like it did before although there is still damage.

Tenth, I told her she had a week to get car insurance, and that after that point it would be cancelled. I provided her with the agent's card and told her that because of her tickets and her at-fault accident her rates would be pretty high but that she had the right to find cheaper insurance elsewhere. She would have the money to do so for several months.

Finally, we went to the bank and I gave up the high-value hostage, transferring every cent into my daughter's account.

Since then, the Venomous Spaz Beast and I lived happily ever after although I'm still having psychological and emotional fallout from years of living with a deeply disturbed and violent person who was physically, verbally, emotionally, and financially abusive to me but who was entitled to not only my ongoing financial support (required under the terms of my adoption) but 24x7 access to my home. My father came to visit about a month after my mom left and helped me replace two doors, fill in the holes my daughter had bashed in the walls, and supervise the replacement of the carpet and flooring she'd destroyed. During that time my daughter came by in tears: she'd blown through the last of her college savings in less than a month, and could she move back in?

I told her no. She left without much of a tantrum. Three weeks later, she had a job. I wish I could say she kept it, but she didn't: she's living off of a boyfriend's grandparents at the moment after a series of Yes-But fiascos.

Since then she's asked twice more to move back in, I've said no every time particularly since some of the social abuse was ongoing: she was continuing to tell people lies about how I'd abused her and kicked her out, in order to get more from them, and some of them were confronting me about it to try to pressure me into taking her back in. I'd kept receipts from Escape Plan Alpha, so I courteously told the flying monkeys that they were welcome to support her themselves, but that I'd already paid for her education and her vehicle plus providing her with bedroom furniture and enough clothing for six young women, and I could prove it. After defusing three different sets of flying monkeys, and after spelling out the exact reasons why I wasn't taking her back in, I usually hear from her only when she wants something from me. At these times she's polite, kind, and considerate. At long last, I have the same level of respect that she shows to a complete stranger. Sometimes when she's upset she's tried to scream at me, but I shut that down by telling her that not one problem she has can be solved by throwing a temper tantrum, and that if she wants my help she needs to act like a civilized adult. That stopped the tantrum in its tracks, because-- as I suspected all along-- she's always been fully aware of, and in control of, everything she's done.

I'm not being abused anymore and my home is gradually resembling something that has never been the lair of a tantrum artist. The VSB and I are living comfortably, my finances have partially recovered although I continue to pay for my daughter's medical care, and my daughter-- who quit her job-- is now taking a GED class at the local community college and actually showing up for most of the school days. She's still several terms away from passing the GED.

My daughter continues to make drama but it no longer affects me financially. Although she assured me that Boyfriend was really taking care of her and was "a good provider", what she means is that he takes her to restaurants and arcades a lot. He doesn't provide, for example, anything resembling car insurance and astoundingly not one cent of the money she made working went for car insurance either. (She of course had money to buy a couple exotic pets for Boyfriend and to pay a relative's sizable electric bill.) This has cost her: while driving uninsured, she backed into a parked car and the owner of the car called the police. She called me asking me to commit insurance fraud by buying insurance for her car and pretending it had existed before the accident. (I told her "no"). I'm not sure exactly how that ended up, but she's not incarcerated at the moment.

(edited to fix copy and paste errors)
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Sibley on July 25, 2018, 01:02:49 PM
GrimSqueaker, I'm glad you're doing better. It sounds like the heavy hammer of reality is having an impact on your daughter, so perhaps in time she'll be a functioning member of society.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 25, 2018, 02:27:24 PM
GrimSqueaker, I'm glad you're doing better. It sounds like the heavy hammer of reality is having an impact on your daughter, so perhaps in time she'll be a functioning member of society.

I have no doubt in my mind that if she puts effort toward her GED she'll nail it. However she's going to have to start working. Next year I'm considering cutting off the co-pays for medical expenses. I have a kid who thinks it's just tickety-bickety keen to go to an urgent care center for a "free" test that she could get just as easily from a drugstore for $15, knowing full well that I get hit with a bill for over $150 every time she does that. I'm willing to pay for the $15 test but don't like to be surprised by a large bill from my insurance company three to five times a year. She of course doesn't care how much the test costs me provided she gets what she wants.

I don't know that the basic ability to consider the impact of her own actions on others will ever be there. Realistically I don't expect to ever be anything more to her than someone to be used for money and other resources, to be given to the lowlifes she really does care about. I never have been, and I never will be, and no amount of effort or sacrifice on my part is going to get me into the favored set of people whose well-being is actually a blip on her radar screen. It's just the way these things go sometimes. I have a VSB who thinks the world of me, and other family members who care as well.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: stoaX on July 25, 2018, 03:29:56 PM
GrimSqueaker, I'm glad you're doing better. It sounds like the heavy hammer of reality is having an impact on your daughter, so perhaps in time she'll be a functioning member of society.

GrimSqueaker- what a story and what an impressive action plan you came up with.

Sibley - The "heavy hammer of reality" is a fantastic turn of phrase...I gotta work that into my vocabulary!
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: patchyfacialhair on July 25, 2018, 04:17:43 PM
Holy heck GS!

I've always enjoyed reading your posts since they seem to be full of wisdom. It seems *extensive* experience comes with that wisdom, or maybe even created it.

Sorry you had to deal with all that. You know the forum loves you here.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 25, 2018, 05:01:20 PM
Holy heck GS!

I've always enjoyed reading your posts since they seem to be full of wisdom. It seems *extensive* experience comes with that wisdom, or maybe even created it.

Sorry you had to deal with all that. You know the forum loves you here.

I feel the love, especially when it comes with sarcasm attached.

Wisdom comes from experience, and experience comes from doing unwise things. I certainly did my share. Sadly, I also have the kind of mind that likes to replay things and to look at them from several different directions, simultaneously.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: pbkmaine on July 25, 2018, 05:46:53 PM
I have followed your story with great interest. How long will you keep paying for health insurance?
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 25, 2018, 08:15:12 PM
I have followed your story with great interest. How long will you keep paying for health insurance?

I haven't decided yet. Much depends on whether she continues to act like a relatively civilized person toward me.

Clearly I've got to do something about her habit of using the ER and the urgent care clinic for every random sniffle or ache. If I can't break her of the habit, I'll have to break the mechanism by which her practice of the habit affects me.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Sibley on July 26, 2018, 07:01:17 AM
GrimSqueaker, I'm glad you're doing better. It sounds like the heavy hammer of reality is having an impact on your daughter, so perhaps in time she'll be a functioning member of society.

I have no doubt in my mind that if she puts effort toward her GED she'll nail it. However she's going to have to start working. Next year I'm considering cutting off the co-pays for medical expenses. I have a kid who thinks it's just tickety-bickety keen to go to an urgent care center for a "free" test that she could get just as easily from a drugstore for $15, knowing full well that I get hit with a bill for over $150 every time she does that. I'm willing to pay for the $15 test but don't like to be surprised by a large bill from my insurance company three to five times a year. She of course doesn't care how much the test costs me provided she gets what she wants.

I don't know that the basic ability to consider the impact of her own actions on others will ever be there. Realistically I don't expect to ever be anything more to her than someone to be used for money and other resources, to be given to the lowlifes she really does care about. I never have been, and I never will be, and no amount of effort or sacrifice on my part is going to get me into the favored set of people whose well-being is actually a blip on her radar screen. It's just the way these things go sometimes. I have a VSB who thinks the world of me, and other family members who care as well.

Grim, are you familiar with the research on the stages of moral development? If not, you may want to read up at some point, you may find it interesting. Your daughter sounds like she's stuck in the stage where she complies because if she doesn't, there is pain. Whether she'll ever progress past that point is entirely up to her.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 26, 2018, 08:42:09 AM
Grim, are you familiar with the research on the stages of moral development? If not, you may want to read up at some point, you may find it interesting. Your daughter sounds like she's stuck in the stage where she complies because if she doesn't, there is pain. Whether she'll ever progress past that point is entirely up to her.

Indeed. It's one of the things they train you in when you get the preliminary instruction for foster parenting. Moral development, social development, educational development, and sometimes even psychological and physical development can go haywire as a result of trauma.

The most that a parent can do is to provide an environment designed to produce that development. Whether it appears isn't up to us. You've got to love the kid on those terms. You're going to be a bit of a punching bag, it goes with the territory, but it's possible to love someone without being a doormat, and it's possible to care deeply about someone without permanently buying shares in their drama.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Kimera757 on July 27, 2018, 05:23:25 AM
I had heard the term before, but only in anime, and basically never thought that the term was used in real life. When I saw the post title, I suddenly occurred to me that many people on welfare are NEETs. They meet the technical qualification, althought I wouldn't count someone on a welfare disability pension as a NEET. Many countries don't have a strong welfare system, so adult freeloaders live off their family instead.

Recently I read the Selfish Gene, originally written in 1976 (older than I am) but the "new version" I am reading was from 1989. There was a mention of welfare in there, saying it was unnatural. The family used to be the economic unit, and now it's the state.

I read some of the posts on that subreddit. There was a lot of depression there, including people complaining that their parents shouldn't have conceived them. I don't know what a good solution is. They don't have mental hospitals to live in anymore, and many of these people probably won't qualify for a disability pension.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: KodeBlue on July 27, 2018, 07:46:54 AM
The term NEET-"no employment, education, training" is a little misleading. several of the folks seem to have degrees and jobs. They seem to be what we called "slackers" in the 90's. Several of them come off as having psychiatric problems.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Ann on July 27, 2018, 08:08:52 AM
The term NEET-"no employment, education, training" is a little misleading. several of the folks seem to have degrees and jobs. They seem to be what we called "slackers" in the 90's. Several of them come off as having psychiatric problems.

I believe it is “NOT in employment, education or training”.  Meaning, they are not currently a student - and not that they have never been one.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: mm1970 on July 27, 2018, 06:24:31 PM
GrimSqueaker, I'm glad you're doing better. It sounds like the heavy hammer of reality is having an impact on your daughter, so perhaps in time she'll be a functioning member of society.

I have no doubt in my mind that if she puts effort toward her GED she'll nail it. However she's going to have to start working. Next year I'm considering cutting off the co-pays for medical expenses. I have a kid who thinks it's just tickety-bickety keen to go to an urgent care center for a "free" test that she could get just as easily from a drugstore for $15, knowing full well that I get hit with a bill for over $150 every time she does that. I'm willing to pay for the $15 test but don't like to be surprised by a large bill from my insurance company three to five times a year. She of course doesn't care how much the test costs me provided she gets what she wants.

I don't know that the basic ability to consider the impact of her own actions on others will ever be there. Realistically I don't expect to ever be anything more to her than someone to be used for money and other resources, to be given to the lowlifes she really does care about. I never have been, and I never will be, and no amount of effort or sacrifice on my part is going to get me into the favored set of people whose well-being is actually a blip on her radar screen. It's just the way these things go sometimes. I have a VSB who thinks the world of me, and other family members who care as well.
I've read many many of your stories about your daughter, and each one flabbergasts me - even though I've read it before.  It's amazing and I cannot believe how incredibly strong you've been through it all.

I don't remember much about your daughter's background/ bio family/ medical history, etc., but I do know I've read quite a bit about early life trauma, fetal alcohol syndrome, lack of attachment as babies, and man - people can really fuck someone up for good in a very short time.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: bugbaby on July 27, 2018, 09:19:46 PM
Grimsqueaker, my son 13 is like that - a copy of his father my ex who has raised him with an incredible sense of entitlement, narcissism and abusive behavior.

He and my daughter are with me this summer-  She is a decent gal, but they've both been indoctrinated to resent and despise me via parental alienation. He does nothing but trash my house, steal from me, always demanding things, never ever lifts a finger to tidy up, ruins all activities just to cause drama, deliberately doing awful embarrassing things in public passes just to push my buttons . He really is awful.

For me the future plan is:
- short visitations in hotels ( they live out of state ) this is my usual way of visitation but this  summer I was basically cornered into having them at my home 2 months rather than my 2 x1week court ordered days - it's been super stressful.

- if they have to live with me - boarding school.

- they must work to buy their own transportation, electronics. I provide only basic items.

- As soon as they graduate hs, must go to  college or get a job. I'll pay 3 month rent to get started .

I know this is very very difficult to enforce and these cats can be very manipulative. But I'd rather be estranged living in peace. My son already told me he never wanted to see me again and I should quit visiting. And if it wasn't for my daughter's sake, I'd gladly do that.

These things start very early in life - my son was 7 when he started throwing fits refusing school, assaulting my mother when the kids stayed there, and just was a difficult child. By adult time it's too late.

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 27, 2018, 10:03:29 PM
GrimSqueaker, I'm glad you're doing better. It sounds like the heavy hammer of reality is having an impact on your daughter, so perhaps in time she'll be a functioning member of society.

I have no doubt in my mind that if she puts effort toward her GED she'll nail it. However she's going to have to start working. Next year I'm considering cutting off the co-pays for medical expenses. I have a kid who thinks it's just tickety-bickety keen to go to an urgent care center for a "free" test that she could get just as easily from a drugstore for $15, knowing full well that I get hit with a bill for over $150 every time she does that. I'm willing to pay for the $15 test but don't like to be surprised by a large bill from my insurance company three to five times a year. She of course doesn't care how much the test costs me provided she gets what she wants.

I don't know that the basic ability to consider the impact of her own actions on others will ever be there. Realistically I don't expect to ever be anything more to her than someone to be used for money and other resources, to be given to the lowlifes she really does care about. I never have been, and I never will be, and no amount of effort or sacrifice on my part is going to get me into the favored set of people whose well-being is actually a blip on her radar screen. It's just the way these things go sometimes. I have a VSB who thinks the world of me, and other family members who care as well.
I've read many many of your stories about your daughter, and each one flabbergasts me - even though I've read it before.  It's amazing and I cannot believe how incredibly strong you've been through it all.

I don't remember much about your daughter's background/ bio family/ medical history, etc., but I do know I've read quite a bit about early life trauma, fetal alcohol syndrome, lack of attachment as babies, and man - people can really fuck someone up for good in a very short time.

I've shared nothing about her background, bio family, or medical history for a reason. It's private information that I do not own and will not discuss with anyone who doesn't have a need to know in order to do their job. I do feel free to share details of her behavior as it relates to me, or as I've seen it in action.

Today I got some excellent news: my sweet girl has enrolled herself in a more structured charter school to go after a diploma, and has another job. I'm rewarding the initiative with a back-to-school shopping trip. (Yep: good old cause and effect.) I'm certain that, had I allowed her to move back in with me when she asked to, she would not have developed a strong need or desire to take these steps. Lord Baphomet knows I tried everything I could think of to get her to go to school, but there may have been things she just needed to get out of her system. She appears to be de-NEETing herself, because she sees the result her approach is having on *her*. Watching her struggle and be uncomfortable while I sit in a clean house with a loving VSB really sucked, and it wasn't easy for me to do given that, as a possessor of a 'stache, I did technically have the wherewithal to solve at least some of her financial problems.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Dicey on July 27, 2018, 10:23:06 PM
Whew, my stories are tame compared to yours. My hat is off to all of you with difficult situations.

My neice is 26. No job, no (or little) college, despite having the intellectual capability, a know-it-all attitude and worst of all, a horrific fingernails-on-a-chalkboard speaking voice. She seems like a poster child for this label. I don't get it, but I live far away and see them seldom.

Closer to home, well, at home, actually, my bonus kid is the same age. He's been in school at least part time his whole life. Two years ago, I gave him a lead on a niche one-day-a-week job, which he landed. Now, he works almost full time and they love him. He buys his own clothes, does his own laundry, buys food for, makes and packs his own lunches. He recently turned 26 and figured out his own healthcare and pays for it himself. He still has a gas card, but doesn't drive much. He drives a car that he inherited from his mother and he's still on our car insurance. He's on our cell plan, too, but it would cost more with one less user. The biggest thing is that he willingly helps with his grandmother and her pal Al Z. He has made huge strides in the last two years and I'm pleased at his progress. The saddest thing is that he has no friends. His new job is in a very specialized field and I'm hoping his co-workers continue to accept him into their work "family"  This kid may launch one of these days after all.

What I completely cannot relate to is the lack of interest in getting OUT!  When I was their age, I was seeing the world, saving for my first house and living on my own in a big city (albeit with a roommate). Everything I owned I paid for myself without help from my parents. I loved my independence.

I have no insight or answers, I just thought I'd throw down some words instead of PTF.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 27, 2018, 10:25:10 PM
Grimsqueaker, my son 13 is like that - a copy of his father my ex who has raised him with an incredible sense of entitlement, narcissism and abusive behavior.

He and my daughter are with me this summer-  She is a decent gal, but they've both been indoctrinated to resent and despise me via parental alienation. He does nothing but trash my house, steal from me, always demanding things, never ever lifts a finger to tidy up, ruins all activities just to cause drama, deliberately doing awful embarrassing things in public passes just to push my buttons . He really is awful.

For me the future plan is:
- short visitations in hotels ( they live out of state ) this is my usual way of visitation but this  summer I was basically cornered into having them at my home 2 months rather than my 2 x1week court ordered days - it's been super stressful.

- if they have to live with me - boarding school.

- they must work to buy their own transportation, electronics. I provide only basic items.

- As soon as they graduate hs, must go to  college or get a job. I'll pay 3 month rent to get started .

I know this is very very difficult to enforce and these cats can be very manipulative. But I'd rather be estranged living in peace. My son already told me he never wanted to see me again and I should quit visiting. And if it wasn't for my daughter's sake, I'd gladly do that.

These things start very early in life - my son was 7 when he started throwing fits refusing school, assaulting my mother when the kids stayed there, and just was a difficult child. By adult time it's too late.

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

In the meantime, there's one thing that can work to take the edge off the bratty behavior, and that's the presence of witnesses. People who give themselves permission to abuse you seldom do so in front of an unbiased person who will call them on their shenanigans and make them public. Get a YouTuber friend or ally to hang out and film.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: LennStar on July 28, 2018, 01:04:27 AM
All the NEETs want is to stay in their own rooms and only come out to eat and consume

It's been something of a big deal in Japan for a while now, where the term is officially hikikomori, with something like 700,000 individuals shutting themselves in for 6+ months according to their government. It's a big enough problem that these sorts of things are addressed in various media from novels to anime, from one of a character's relatives that's a shut in to the protagonist trying to overcome their situation. It's prevalent enough to have become something of a trope.

As RWD said, while many NEETS are hikikomori, the two things are not the same. Many NEETs are quite outgoing in the literal sense - they have a lot of time to spend, after all.
Hikikomori is older then the NEET phenomenom.
Also Hikikomori can be employed or self-working, mostly using the internet.

Many say it roots back to the big Japanese depression (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29), when unenployment (especially for youth) had gone up and the traditional "contract" between worker and company - lifelong employement and dedication - evaporated. (In turn, the moral importance of being employed just for the sake of being employed decreased, too - but that is true for every "western" country).
And of course in many cases the working conditions are still quite bad. This is especially true for single parents.
Basically the young people are saying: Even if I work my ass off, it is very unlikely I can achieve anything. So why do it? Fuck off!

At the same time the number of young people who said they don't want children - or even don't have sex at all - were rising tremedously. 
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: bugbaby on July 29, 2018, 08:21:49 AM
Grimsqueaker, my son 13 is like that - a copy of his father my ex who has raised him with an incredible sense of entitlement, narcissism and abusive behavior.

He and my daughter are with me this summer-  She is a decent gal, but they've both been indoctrinated to resent and despise me via parental alienation. He does nothing but trash my house, steal from me, always demanding things, never ever lifts a finger to tidy up, ruins all activities just to cause drama, deliberately doing awful embarrassing things in public passes just to push my buttons . He really is awful.

For me the future plan is:
- short visitations in hotels ( they live out of state ) this is my usual way of visitation but this  summer I was basically cornered into having them at my home 2 months rather than my 2 x1week court ordered days - it's been super stressful.

- if they have to live with me - boarding school.

- they must work to buy their own transportation, electronics. I provide only basic items.

- As soon as they graduate hs, must go to  college or get a job. I'll pay 3 month rent to get started .

I know this is very very difficult to enforce and these cats can be very manipulative. But I'd rather be estranged living in peace. My son already told me he never wanted to see me again and I should quit visiting. And if it wasn't for my daughter's sake, I'd gladly do that.

These things start very early in life - my son was 7 when he started throwing fits refusing school, assaulting my mother when the kids stayed there, and just was a difficult child. By adult time it's too late.

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

In the meantime, there's one thing that can work to take the edge off the bratty behavior, and that's the presence of witnesses. People who give themselves permission to abuse you seldom do so in front of an unbiased person who will call them on their shenanigans and make them public. Get a YouTuber friend or ally to hang out and film.
Thanks for this idea. Will def invest in a cam to protect myself.

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: bacchi on July 29, 2018, 09:07:04 AM
The term NEET-"no employment, education, training" is a little misleading. several of the folks seem to have degrees and jobs. They seem to be what we called "slackers" in the 90's. Several of them come off as having psychiatric problems.

Hey now. Slackers may have had dead-end jobs, or may have stayed in college way too long, but they weren't mooching off parents.

Grim, who is VSD? I thought it was your daughter at first. Is it a cat?
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: RWD on July 29, 2018, 09:17:23 AM
The term NEET-"no employment, education, training" is a little misleading. several of the folks seem to have degrees and jobs. They seem to be what we called "slackers" in the 90's. Several of them come off as having psychiatric problems.

Hey now. Slackers may have had dead-end jobs, or may have stayed in college way too long, but they weren't mooching off parents.

Grim, who is VSD? I thought it was your daughter at first. Is it a cat?

Venomous Spaz Beast (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/purebred-puppies/msg1511673/#msg1511673). It's a dog.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 29, 2018, 03:51:59 PM
The term NEET-"no employment, education, training" is a little misleading. several of the folks seem to have degrees and jobs. They seem to be what we called "slackers" in the 90's. Several of them come off as having psychiatric problems.

Hey now. Slackers may have had dead-end jobs, or may have stayed in college way too long, but they weren't mooching off parents.

Grim, who is VSD? I thought it was your daughter at first. Is it a cat?

Behold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pONOVktTGJM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pONOVktTGJM)
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Paul der Krake on July 29, 2018, 04:12:22 PM
@TheGrimSqueaker are you 100% positive your liability for your NEET has ended? I wonder if the case could be made that by providing her health coverage and knowing she drives uninsured yet not reporting it, you are maintaining ties and that could somehow be held against you.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 29, 2018, 10:14:12 PM
@TheGrimSqueaker are you 100% positive your liability for your NEET has ended? I wonder if the case could be made that by providing her health coverage and knowing she drives uninsured yet not reporting it, you are maintaining ties and that could somehow be held against you.

It's not actually illegal to have ties to someone you know is breaking the law, if you do your utmost within the limits of the law to stop them. I simply do not have the legal right to take the car, take the keys, slash the tires, render the vehicle inoperable, or render her incapable of driving it. Any of those things, done by me, would be criminal acts.

The police are already aware she's driving uninsured: they caught her but let her go without even a fine. When the police won't enforce the law, not much can be done. There's nobody left to report the uninsured driving *to*. In my state the penalty for driving uninsured is a fine and the forfeiture of the vehicle registration, *if* the police officer sees fit to do so. Anywhere from 20 to 25% of all vehicles on the roads are uninsured.

Right now, police don't respond to vehicle *thefts* unless it's a violent carjacking, and a vehicle is stolen roughly once an hour in my city. There simply aren't resources to prosecute uninsured motorists.

In New Mexico, also known as Thuggistan, vehicle thefts and damage by drunk or uninsured motorists is the norm and the standard remedy is to insure against it. I used my insurance back in April when a hit and run driver slammed into me from behind and totaled my car.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Kyle Schuant on July 29, 2018, 10:37:29 PM
The NEETers are like the most unimaginative people on MMM. "So long as I'm idle I'll be happy." But that's not very interesting.

GrimSqueaker, as the parent of a 7yo boy and a 2yo girl not wanting to see a future like that: obviously the child's own nature is part of it all, but looking back is there anything you'd do differently in the hopes she'd grow up better?
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: okits on July 29, 2018, 11:12:50 PM
The term NEET-"no employment, education, training" is a little misleading. several of the folks seem to have degrees and jobs. They seem to be what we called "slackers" in the 90's. Several of them come off as having psychiatric problems.

Hey now. Slackers may have had dead-end jobs, or may have stayed in college way too long, but they weren't mooching off parents.

Grim, who is VSD? I thought it was your daughter at first. Is it a cat?

Behold.


Ha ha, the VSB has your number, TGS.  Also, your voice is so sweet!  From your cutting insight and wicked wit I was kind of expecting the obliterating sound of heavenly wrath...  Maybe that's what everyone else gets?  :)

ETA: I'm glad it sounds like your daughter has made positive steps and I hope the direction forward continues to be constructive (I realize life can often be two-steps-forward-two-steps-back).  Happy you have peace and quiet back in your home and hope it's helping you recover from this experience.  For all my teasing above I do think you have had the love and generosity of a saint in this parenting adventure.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 30, 2018, 09:54:16 AM
The NEETers are like the most unimaginative people on MMM. "So long as I'm idle I'll be happy." But that's not very interesting.

GrimSqueaker, as the parent of a 7yo boy and a 2yo girl not wanting to see a future like that: obviously the child's own nature is part of it all, but looking back is there anything you'd do differently in the hopes she'd grow up better?

We're an adoptive family and we didn't meet until she was 15. I've met her bio-dad once, but not her bio-mom. We didn't know each other during her formative years unfortunately. She grew up in a country that's been consistently at war since she was a baby, where income inequality is rampant, and where government has been heavily influenced by wealth and radicalized religious fundamentalism. In the particular region where she was born, nearly one in three children lives in poverty.

Definitely I could have dialed back on the luxuries a bit, however maybe not because her desire for a comfortable life with a fair number of luxuries has become a motivator. She's also figured out that without education, skills, and a work ethic her life is not going to be comfortable much less fun. She's also figured out that she's short on the education, skills, organization, and other things that go into adulting. The wheels are turning... she's also begun to appreciate the opportunities that have been put in front of her. Basically she went through a phase where she thought she could easily go it alone, however it didn't quite work out the way she planned.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Cool Friend on July 30, 2018, 11:22:56 AM
Honestly, I empathize with them.  There was a long, dark period of my life after The Great Recession when I had tons of student debt, could not afford to go back to school/training, could not afford to work for free at an unpaid internship (the only kind on offer), and no matter how many job applications I sent out, I could not find work.  It is profoundly demoralizing and hard to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it.  The message you end up internalizing is that your community and society do not want you, that you have no place whatsoever in it.  It's true, you can't blame the economy on everything, but it's foolish to ignore the very real effect external factors have in your ability to grow a livable future for yourself.  Their mindset is negative and self-destructive, but they didn't develop that mindset from nothing.  Don't take the claims in that thread of wanting to remain NEET for the rest of the lives at face value: when that's the only future you can see, you convince yourself that you might as well desire it.

I find the attitude that these are worthless people to be terribly cynical.  They're human beings.  Not everyone can figure a way out of a bad situation on their own.  A lot of these people are terrified at the predatory economic system that governs their lives and are too afraid to strike out on their own.

I could have easily been one of these people if 1) moving in with someone who would pay my rent and groceries was ever an option and 2) I didn't luck into a very rarefied job that took me out of unemployment hell.  Actually, considering how deeply depressing life was for me at that point, I was more likely to commit suicide than live on someone's couch and have them take care of me.  Is that supposed to be more admirable?

I'm not saying giving up is good. I'm saying I understand the depth of despair that makes giving up appealing.  I read some of those Reddit posts and could only think there but for the grace of God go I.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: mm1970 on July 30, 2018, 02:21:25 PM
GrimSqueaker, I'm glad you're doing better. It sounds like the heavy hammer of reality is having an impact on your daughter, so perhaps in time she'll be a functioning member of society.

I have no doubt in my mind that if she puts effort toward her GED she'll nail it. However she's going to have to start working. Next year I'm considering cutting off the co-pays for medical expenses. I have a kid who thinks it's just tickety-bickety keen to go to an urgent care center for a "free" test that she could get just as easily from a drugstore for $15, knowing full well that I get hit with a bill for over $150 every time she does that. I'm willing to pay for the $15 test but don't like to be surprised by a large bill from my insurance company three to five times a year. She of course doesn't care how much the test costs me provided she gets what she wants.

I don't know that the basic ability to consider the impact of her own actions on others will ever be there. Realistically I don't expect to ever be anything more to her than someone to be used for money and other resources, to be given to the lowlifes she really does care about. I never have been, and I never will be, and no amount of effort or sacrifice on my part is going to get me into the favored set of people whose well-being is actually a blip on her radar screen. It's just the way these things go sometimes. I have a VSB who thinks the world of me, and other family members who care as well.
I've read many many of your stories about your daughter, and each one flabbergasts me - even though I've read it before.  It's amazing and I cannot believe how incredibly strong you've been through it all.

I don't remember much about your daughter's background/ bio family/ medical history, etc., but I do know I've read quite a bit about early life trauma, fetal alcohol syndrome, lack of attachment as babies, and man - people can really fuck someone up for good in a very short time.

I've shared nothing about her background, bio family, or medical history for a reason. It's private information that I do not own and will not discuss with anyone who doesn't have a need to know in order to do their job. I do feel free to share details of her behavior as it relates to me, or as I've seen it in action.

Today I got some excellent news: my sweet girl has enrolled herself in a more structured charter school to go after a diploma, and has another job. I'm rewarding the initiative with a back-to-school shopping trip. (Yep: good old cause and effect.) I'm certain that, had I allowed her to move back in with me when she asked to, she would not have developed a strong need or desire to take these steps. Lord Baphomet knows I tried everything I could think of to get her to go to school, but there may have been things she just needed to get out of her system. She appears to be de-NEETing herself, because she sees the result her approach is having on *her*. Watching her struggle and be uncomfortable while I sit in a clean house with a loving VSB really sucked, and it wasn't easy for me to do given that, as a possessor of a 'stache, I did technically have the wherewithal to solve at least some of her financial problems.

Absolutely.  I applaud that (the bolded). 

Very positive news!  I'd imagine it's hard to be in the financial position where you can solve problems, but have to have the backbone to let them figure it out for themselves.

My mother was never really able to do that.  My brother wasn't horrible when she was alive, just a spender who would annually hit her up for a "loan", that mysteriously almost never got paid back.  She died several years ago, and he doesn't have the guts to hit up our stepfather (who married mom after we were adults), so he's honestly had to grow up.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: marcela on July 30, 2018, 03:44:58 PM
Honestly, I empathize with them.  There was a long, dark period of my life after The Great Recession when I had tons of student debt, could not afford to go back to school/training, could not afford to work for free at an unpaid internship (the only kind on offer), and no matter how many job applications I sent out, I could not find work.  It is profoundly demoralizing and hard to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it.  The message you end up internalizing is that your community and society do not want you, that you have no place whatsoever in it.  It's true, you can't blame the economy on everything, but it's foolish to ignore the very real effect external factors have in your ability to grow a livable future for yourself.  Their mindset is negative and self-destructive, but they didn't develop that mindset from nothing.  Don't take the claims in that thread of wanting to remain NEET for the rest of the lives at face value: when that's the only future you can see, you convince yourself that you might as well desire it.

I find the attitude that these are worthless people to be terribly cynical.  They're human beings.  Not everyone can figure a way out of a bad situation on their own.  A lot of these people are terrified at the predatory economic system that governs their lives and are too afraid to strike out on their own.

I could have easily been one of these people if 1) moving in with someone who would pay my rent and groceries was ever an option and 2) I didn't luck into a very rarefied job that took me out of unemployment hell.  Actually, considering how deeply depressing life was for me at that point, I was more likely to commit suicide than live on someone's couch and have them take care of me.  Is that supposed to be more admirable?

I'm not saying giving up is good. I'm saying I understand the depth of despair that makes giving up appealing.  I read some of those Reddit posts and could only think there but for the grace of God go I.

I was severely depressed in grad school and this isn't too far off. I ended up dropping out because I was gonna fail out. Lost my assistantship and therefore my income and was too depressed to look for anything. I basically lived at my boyfriend's and would talk about how we should get married and I would keep house and cook. It was definitely the depression talking. Luckily he pushed me to get help and I was able to get past all that and get back to my usual hustle. Part of it too was that I didn't really have anyone to support me. I had to go out and work and support myself.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 30, 2018, 11:07:17 PM
Honestly, I empathize with them.  There was a long, dark period of my life after The Great Recession when I had tons of student debt, could not afford to go back to school/training, could not afford to work for free at an unpaid internship (the only kind on offer), and no matter how many job applications I sent out, I could not find work.  It is profoundly demoralizing and hard to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it.  The message you end up internalizing is that your community and society do not want you, that you have no place whatsoever in it.  It's true, you can't blame the economy on everything, but it's foolish to ignore the very real effect external factors have in your ability to grow a livable future for yourself.  Their mindset is negative and self-destructive, but they didn't develop that mindset from nothing.  Don't take the claims in that thread of wanting to remain NEET for the rest of the lives at face value: when that's the only future you can see, you convince yourself that you might as well desire it.

I find the attitude that these are worthless people to be terribly cynical.  They're human beings.  Not everyone can figure a way out of a bad situation on their own.  A lot of these people are terrified at the predatory economic system that governs their lives and are too afraid to strike out on their own.

I could have easily been one of these people if 1) moving in with someone who would pay my rent and groceries was ever an option and 2) I didn't luck into a very rarefied job that took me out of unemployment hell.  Actually, considering how deeply depressing life was for me at that point, I was more likely to commit suicide than live on someone's couch and have them take care of me.  Is that supposed to be more admirable?

I'm not saying giving up is good. I'm saying I understand the depth of despair that makes giving up appealing.  I read some of those Reddit posts and could only think there but for the grace of God go I.

I was severely depressed in grad school and this isn't too far off. I ended up dropping out because I was gonna fail out. Lost my assistantship and therefore my income and was too depressed to look for anything. I basically lived at my boyfriend's and would talk about how we should get married and I would keep house and cook. It was definitely the depression talking. Luckily he pushed me to get help and I was able to get past all that and get back to my usual hustle. Part of it too was that I didn't really have anyone to support me. I had to go out and work and support myself.

I can understand the effects of depression and anxiety as being factors in NEETdom, and having twice graduated into a recession I definitely empathize with the victims of the last one who had to send out at least as many applications as I did before drawing an offer. That being said, I do not see the justification for the extreme contempt toward people in the working and professional classes in general ("wagecucks"? really?) or the hatred directed toward the specific individuals supporting them, who were frequently parents or similar enablers.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: LennStar on July 31, 2018, 05:41:45 AM
That being said, I do not see the justification for the extreme contempt toward people in the working and professional classes in general ("wagecucks"? really?) or the hatred directed toward the specific individuals supporting them, who were frequently parents or similar enablers.

Then you don't know a lot about psychology ;)
For example: If they (parents) support such a shit of person (son), they must be idiots! THEY are responsible. If they would not be idiots, then the son (me) would be responsible, and that is not the case, of course.

Stockholm syndrome (or people continue to live with their abusing partner), imposter syndrome and many more where people reduce themselves or others at shit to preserve their orld(view).

Anyway:
I don't know much about USA NEETs, but the for the Japanese there are several - and profound - reasons for such a statement. I mean there is a Japanese word like karoushi, that alone should tell you something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi

The "typical" workday of a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaryman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaryman) starts at 5, with 1 or 2 hours of train, then 10-12 hours at work, go drinking etc. with collegues (yes, that is also a duty) and come back with one of the last trains just to fall in bed.

To quote WP about other names: "shachiku (社畜) meaning corporate livestock, kaisha no inu (会社の犬) dog of the company, and kigyou senshi (企業戦士) corporate soldier, to ridicule salarymen"

I can very well understand people who do not want that type of life. Of course, here in the MMM forums we punch them in the face and tell them to change it, but that is really hard when you are already in the pit and failure is practically guaranteed if you don't have at least one dedicated helper.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Cool Friend on July 31, 2018, 07:27:43 AM
Honestly, I empathize with them.  There was a long, dark period of my life after The Great Recession when I had tons of student debt, could not afford to go back to school/training, could not afford to work for free at an unpaid internship (the only kind on offer), and no matter how many job applications I sent out, I could not find work.  It is profoundly demoralizing and hard to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it.  The message you end up internalizing is that your community and society do not want you, that you have no place whatsoever in it.  It's true, you can't blame the economy on everything, but it's foolish to ignore the very real effect external factors have in your ability to grow a livable future for yourself.  Their mindset is negative and self-destructive, but they didn't develop that mindset from nothing.  Don't take the claims in that thread of wanting to remain NEET for the rest of the lives at face value: when that's the only future you can see, you convince yourself that you might as well desire it.

I find the attitude that these are worthless people to be terribly cynical.  They're human beings.  Not everyone can figure a way out of a bad situation on their own.  A lot of these people are terrified at the predatory economic system that governs their lives and are too afraid to strike out on their own.

I could have easily been one of these people if 1) moving in with someone who would pay my rent and groceries was ever an option and 2) I didn't luck into a very rarefied job that took me out of unemployment hell.  Actually, considering how deeply depressing life was for me at that point, I was more likely to commit suicide than live on someone's couch and have them take care of me.  Is that supposed to be more admirable?

I'm not saying giving up is good. I'm saying I understand the depth of despair that makes giving up appealing.  I read some of those Reddit posts and could only think there but for the grace of God go I.

I was severely depressed in grad school and this isn't too far off. I ended up dropping out because I was gonna fail out. Lost my assistantship and therefore my income and was too depressed to look for anything. I basically lived at my boyfriend's and would talk about how we should get married and I would keep house and cook. It was definitely the depression talking. Luckily he pushed me to get help and I was able to get past all that and get back to my usual hustle. Part of it too was that I didn't really have anyone to support me. I had to go out and work and support myself.

I can understand the effects of depression and anxiety as being factors in NEETdom, and having twice graduated into a recession I definitely empathize with the victims of the last one who had to send out at least as many applications as I did before drawing an offer. That being said, I do not see the justification for the extreme contempt toward people in the working and professional classes in general ("wagecucks"? really?) or the hatred directed toward the specific individuals supporting them, who were frequently parents or similar enablers.

I wouldn't say that the extreme contempt is justified by any means, but it is a common defense mechanism as LennStar pointed out.  To be in that position and to feel utterly powerless, a person can build up a lot of resentment for the very people they rely on to live, and resentment for people who are able to work and sustain themselves without that support network. At heart, they don't want to have to live that way--every human being craves some agency, independence, and meaningful work.  In order to feel any semblance of self-esteem, you have to convince yourself that everyone who isn't living the way you are is an idiot or an asshole. It's not a healthy attitude and it doesn't serve them, unfortunately.  I wouldn't take their contempt for working, self-sufficient people personally; it's a potent bitterness that fuels it.

And yes, "wagecucks" is some cringe-worthy 4chan nonsense.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Timodeus on July 31, 2018, 08:02:10 AM
Honestly, I empathize with them.  There was a long, dark period of my life after The Great Recession when I had tons of student debt, could not afford to go back to school/training, could not afford to work for free at an unpaid internship (the only kind on offer), and no matter how many job applications I sent out, I could not find work.  It is profoundly demoralizing and hard to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it.  The message you end up internalizing is that your community and society do not want you, that you have no place whatsoever in it.  It's true, you can't blame the economy on everything, but it's foolish to ignore the very real effect external factors have in your ability to grow a livable future for yourself.  Their mindset is negative and self-destructive, but they didn't develop that mindset from nothing.  Don't take the claims in that thread of wanting to remain NEET for the rest of the lives at face value: when that's the only future you can see, you convince yourself that you might as well desire it.

I find the attitude that these are worthless people to be terribly cynical.  They're human beings.  Not everyone can figure a way out of a bad situation on their own.  A lot of these people are terrified at the predatory economic system that governs their lives and are too afraid to strike out on their own.

I could have easily been one of these people if 1) moving in with someone who would pay my rent and groceries was ever an option and 2) I didn't luck into a very rarefied job that took me out of unemployment hell.  Actually, considering how deeply depressing life was for me at that point, I was more likely to commit suicide than live on someone's couch and have them take care of me.  Is that supposed to be more admirable?

I'm not saying giving up is good. I'm saying I understand the depth of despair that makes giving up appealing.  I read some of those Reddit posts and could only think there but for the grace of God go I.

This was a great post and reflects many of my feelings as well. I recall graduating college during the recession with no plan for a job, deep in debt, and a degree worth little to nothing. After being a mooch for a year I had an awakening after getting kicked out of a relative's house. I had two options at that time, go down the pit of despair or become stoic and start making prudent decisions for a change. I chose the latter. My reasons for mooching are similar to these NEETs, through a combination of poor financial decisions (college degree) and general economic conditions, I found it hard to accept taking jobs with little to no growth potential just to pay rent every month. While I think some of my success was luck, I found that if you work consistently, come in on time, don't fight with coworkers, and present a humble attitude you have an edge over many people. There are real systemic issues that prevent some people from getting ahead in life for sure, so I feel fortunate to have made it and am well on my way to financial independence. You said it best-There But For The Grace of God Go I.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 31, 2018, 12:30:15 PM
I wouldn't say that the extreme contempt is justified by any means, but it is a common defense mechanism as LennStar pointed out.

It's the justification I'm trying to find. I'm fully aware that entitlement-minded mooches find reasons to continue doing what they're doing; that's actually a response to cognitive dissonance. Another thing I notice is that they often genuinely believe that they're "contributing" just by being present. They also really, truly, honestly believe there's such a thing as a "soul" that will be crushed if they expose themselves to a difficult or unpleasant experience. They believe that difficulties and challenges permanently damage them.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: talltexan on August 01, 2018, 06:36:30 AM
I had heard the term before, but only in anime, and basically never thought that the term was used in real life. When I saw the post title, I suddenly occurred to me that many people on welfare are NEETs. They meet the technical qualification, althought I wouldn't count someone on a welfare disability pension as a NEET. Many countries don't have a strong welfare system, so adult freeloaders live off their family instead.


Kimera-
Like you I am horrified by NEET people and NEET culture, but this part of your post is based on some misconceptions about modern welfare that have not been true for more than twenty years, basically after the Clinton-Gingrich reforms of the 1990's. In order to qualify for one of the two largest programs--SNAP or TANF--you have got to have children or else a job. The EITC is also only really useful to people who perform low-paying work and receive income for it. 


Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: partgypsy on August 01, 2018, 12:06:30 PM
The people I know who can be described like that (my older brother, and some of the time my sister) are not and have never been on welfare. While they are perfectly ok having parents provide for them (they are adults), they are personally derisive of people on welfare or receiving any gov support, which completely mystifies me.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Hunny156 on August 03, 2018, 12:25:49 PM
Wow, this thread hit home for me.  I can't go into too much detail due to pending litigation, but I am seeing the results of this behavior, magnified, when the parental units shrug their shoulders in frustration but refuse to cut the enabling behavior.  Add in some un-diagnosed mental health issues and possibly narcissism, and the results are disastrous.  This person was once a (mostly) functioning member of society, they have a degree and were able to maintain a job with a solid rate of pay.  Unwilling to leave the nest and unable to maintain a relationship with others, but at least there was enough income to provide for themselves, so long as they could develop some frugal habits when they finally ventured out into the real world.  Not perfect, but with some mentoring, there was absolutely an opportunity to become a fully functional member of society.

I'm too angry to be neutral these days, but from where I stand, this was a willful plan to take advantage of someone who lacked the faculties to protect themselves, and the levels of depravity, the lack of morals or ethics, are utterly astonishing.

This failure to launch character finds themselves with six figure unsecured debt, an extensive record of shoddy work history (near poverty level, but living the high life by abusing resources that are now nearly gone), and is willing to do anything to lash their way out of the corner they have painted themselves into.  Unable or unwilling to defend themselves from damning evidence in court, they resorted to another form of legal action that will haunt them for years to come, further impeding their ability to become a functional member of society, with barely a couple of decades left before traditional retirement age.  This person has strong hatred for the enabler and for the one trying to clean up the mess (me), so the solution was to hide from one, and dump the other, helpless person into the care of the state. 

My life has been turned upside down this year, trying to rectify the problems created, while watching guerilla warfare tactics from the other side, determined to make things worse for all involved.  I'm grateful that my mustachian ways are allowing me to devote some resources to solving this problem, and I'm trying to maintain some sanity and perspective.  I'm hopeful that the proper channels will eventually come into play and do right by the ultimate victim, but my recent education into the legal process has been disheartening at best.

The actual details of the story are so shocking, many people close to me have suggested I pen a book about it all once the story is resolved.  I probably won't, living through it the first time is hard enough, and my goal of FIRE is more important to me, so I hope to move forward and put this mess behind me at some point.  I also realize my story is not unique, and it's been eye opening to see why this behavior continues without repercussion in so many families.  Most people simply do not have the resources to fight a long, ugly, expensive uphill battle.  It's all so very sad.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: maizeman on August 03, 2018, 12:31:13 PM
So sorry to hear that Hunny156. Reading between the lines a little I can start to form a guess about a few of the particulars of the experience you are going through, and if I'm completely wrong it only means it is even worse than the situation I am imagining.

Take care of yourself, and those close to you.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: stoaX on August 03, 2018, 03:00:44 PM
Wow, this thread hit home for me.  I can't go into too much detail due to pending litigation, but I am seeing the results of this behavior, magnified, when the parental units shrug their shoulders in frustration but refuse to cut the enabling behavior.  Add in some un-diagnosed mental health issues and possibly narcissism, and the results are disastrous.  This person was once a (mostly) functioning member of society, they have a degree and were able to maintain a job with a solid rate of pay.  Unwilling to leave the nest and unable to maintain a relationship with others, but at least there was enough income to provide for themselves, so long as they could develop some frugal habits when they finally ventured out into the real world.  Not perfect, but with some mentoring, there was absolutely an opportunity to become a fully functional member of society.

I'm too angry to be neutral these days, but from where I stand, this was a willful plan to take advantage of someone who lacked the faculties to protect themselves, and the levels of depravity, the lack of morals or ethics, are utterly astonishing.

This failure to launch character finds themselves with six figure unsecured debt, an extensive record of shoddy work history (near poverty level, but living the high life by abusing resources that are now nearly gone), and is willing to do anything to lash their way out of the corner they have painted themselves into.  Unable or unwilling to defend themselves from damning evidence in court, they resorted to another form of legal action that will haunt them for years to come, further impeding their ability to become a functional member of society, with barely a couple of decades left before traditional retirement age.  This person has strong hatred for the enabler and for the one trying to clean up the mess (me), so the solution was to hide from one, and dump the other, helpless person into the care of the state. 

My life has been turned upside down this year, trying to rectify the problems created, while watching guerilla warfare tactics from the other side, determined to make things worse for all involved.  I'm grateful that my mustachian ways are allowing me to devote some resources to solving this problem, and I'm trying to maintain some sanity and perspective.  I'm hopeful that the proper channels will eventually come into play and do right by the ultimate victim, but my recent education into the legal process has been disheartening at best.

The actual details of the story are so shocking, many people close to me have suggested I pen a book about it all once the story is resolved.  I probably won't, living through it the first time is hard enough, and my goal of FIRE is more important to me, so I hope to move forward and put this mess behind me at some point.  I also realize my story is not unique, and it's been eye opening to see why this behavior continues without repercussion in so many families.  Most people simply do not have the resources to fight a long, ugly, expensive uphill battle.  It's all so very sad.

Wishing you well with your struggle.  And yes, my experience with the legal system (cops, courts, child welfare people, housing authority people) was, at best, underwhelming and sooooo slow....
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Kimera757 on August 04, 2018, 08:46:29 AM
I had heard the term before, but only in anime, and basically never thought that the term was used in real life. When I saw the post title, I suddenly occurred to me that many people on welfare are NEETs. They meet the technical qualification, althought I wouldn't count someone on a welfare disability pension as a NEET. Many countries don't have a strong welfare system, so adult freeloaders live off their family instead.


Kimera-
Like you I am horrified by NEET people and NEET culture, but this part of your post is based on some misconceptions about modern welfare that have not been true for more than twenty years, basically after the Clinton-Gingrich reforms of the 1990's. In order to qualify for one of the two largest programs--SNAP or TANF--you have got to have children or else a job. The EITC is also only really useful to people who perform low-paying work and receive income for it.

I am a Canadian. Welfare works a bit differently here. (and for that matter, the five year limit only applies in some states. The law simply allows states to impose a five year limit.)
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: FireLane on August 16, 2018, 08:50:48 PM
Oh boy. This describes my BIL to a T.

He's in his early 30s, never finished college, never had a job for more than a few weeks at a time. He's living with his dad, who for whatever reason is willing to feed and house him. He helps babysit our son occasionally, but spends most of his time watching TV and getting into arguments with strangers on the internet.

And yes, there's a lot of rationalization taking place: the economy is rigged, it's impossible for people like him to find a job so why try, he didn't graduate and can't find work because everyone hates him for no reason whatsoever (no, of course it has nothing to do with his work ethic or his attitude, why would you even ask?). The sense of entitlement and ingratitude for the people who support him is also very much present.

He's very intelligent, has some definite talents, can even be charming when he makes the effort. I have no doubt he could do something with his life if he tried. But the motivation, the desire to apply himself, just isn't there.

He says he's depressed, and maybe he is. But no one else can solve his problems for him if he's not willing to put in some effort himself, and I've never seen him make more than a cursory effort to turn his life around. His plan seems to be to make no attempt to fend for himself and trust that others will catch him. So far, it's worked. But I'm a little worried about the day when one or both of his parents decide they're no longer willing or are no longer able to support him, because I'm definitely not going to adopt a new child.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Davnasty on August 17, 2018, 07:01:25 AM
Oh boy. This describes my BIL to a T.

He's in his early 30s, never finished college, never had a job for more than a few weeks at a time. He's living with his dad, who for whatever reason is willing to feed and house him. He helps babysit our son occasionally, but spends most of his time watching TV and getting into arguments with strangers on the internet.

And yes, there's a lot of rationalization taking place: the economy is rigged, it's impossible for people like him to find a job so why try, he didn't graduate and can't find work because everyone hates him for no reason whatsoever (no, of course it has nothing to do with his work ethic or his attitude, why would you even ask?). The sense of entitlement and ingratitude for the people who support him is also very much present.

He's very intelligent, has some definite talents, can even be charming when he makes the effort. I have no doubt he could do something with his life if he tried. But the motivation, the desire to apply himself, just isn't there.

He says he's depressed, and maybe he is. But no one else can solve his problems for him if he's not willing to put in some effort himself, and I've never seen him make more than a cursory effort to turn his life around. His plan seems to be to make no attempt to fend for himself and trust that others will catch him. So far, it's worked. But I'm a little worried about the day when one or both of his parents decide they're no longer willing or are no longer able to support him, because I'm definitely not going to adopt a new child.

Maybe you should point him over here - https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/ (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/) :)

He can get into arguments and maybe, indirectly, he'll get curious about this mustachian stuff.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Mesmoiselle on August 17, 2018, 07:19:51 AM
@TheGrimSqueaker

The way you talk about your adopted kid reminds me of my brother. He's getting treatment, finally, at 29. But if after a year of pills he doesn't stop yelling at me and asking for money every time I see him, I'm cutting him out if my life completely. I mourn how close we were as children before his brain messed up and thought our mother's life lessons were worth repeating. I only interact with two of my family members,  ut he's the last one I allow in my life to keep ruffling my feathers as I hope for a better medicated future. The fact I live out of state is the only reason the damage is as low as it is.

As related to this thread, he used up all the free college money, and is now barely working one day a week minimum wage. He has admitted to thinking he's too good for this job even though his only education was Theater Arts. On my birthday he informed me he should get the last slice of a small pizza I purchased for us to share because he wouldn't be get free food from my sister later. He intermittently rents rooms and sleeps on Christian friend's couches.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Just Joe on August 17, 2018, 08:53:29 AM
Maybe this has already been addressed but what would these people do without someone to provide a roof over their heads? DW and I always worked b/c we had no alternatives. Neither of us wanted to be homeless so work it was/is. Plus failure to launch would be shameful to us.

On the topic of depression vs job. Are they depressed b/c their life is a mess or is their life a mess b/c they are depressed?

The first step could be as easy as going for a long walk. Get the blood moving and the endorphins going.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Sibley on August 17, 2018, 06:42:24 PM
Maybe this has already been addressed but what would these people do without someone to provide a roof over their heads? DW and I always worked b/c we had no alternatives. Neither of us wanted to be homeless so work it was/is. Plus failure to launch would be shameful to us.

On the topic of depression vs job. Are they depressed b/c their life is a mess or is their life a mess b/c they are depressed?

The first step could be as easy as going for a long walk. Get the blood moving and the endorphins going.

At least some of them would get a job and support themselves if no one else would support them. Others would probably end up homeless. I'm sure, particularly given the oipoid epidemic, some of them would end up dead.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: marty998 on August 17, 2018, 07:06:29 PM
Maybe this has already been addressed but what would these people do without someone to provide a roof over their heads? DW and I always worked b/c we had no alternatives. Neither of us wanted to be homeless so work it was/is. Plus failure to launch would be shameful to us.

On the topic of depression vs job. Are they depressed b/c their life is a mess or is their life a mess b/c they are depressed?

The first step could be as easy as going for a long walk. Get the blood moving and the endorphins going.

At least some of them would get a job and support themselves if no one else would support them. Others would probably end up homeless. I'm sure, particularly given the oipoid epidemic, some of them would end up dead.

Turning off Facebook and Instagram would be a good start. Then go for that walk/run. Nothing more depressing than seeing the perfect lives of others.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: js82 on August 17, 2018, 08:26:00 PM
Oh boy. This describes my BIL to a T.

He's in his early 30s, never finished college, never had a job for more than a few weeks at a time. He's living with his dad, who for whatever reason is willing to feed and house him. He helps babysit our son occasionally, but spends most of his time watching TV and getting into arguments with strangers on the internet.

And yes, there's a lot of rationalization taking place: the economy is rigged, it's impossible for people like him to find a job so why try, he didn't graduate and can't find work because everyone hates him for no reason whatsoever (no, of course it has nothing to do with his work ethic or his attitude, why would you even ask?). The sense of entitlement and ingratitude for the people who support him is also very much present.

He's very intelligent, has some definite talents, can even be charming when he makes the effort. I have no doubt he could do something with his life if he tried. But the motivation, the desire to apply himself, just isn't there.

He says he's depressed, and maybe he is. But no one else can solve his problems for him if he's not willing to put in some effort himself, and I've never seen him make more than a cursory effort to turn his life around. His plan seems to be to make no attempt to fend for himself and trust that others will catch him. So far, it's worked. But I'm a little worried about the day when one or both of his parents decide they're no longer willing or are no longer able to support him, because I'm definitely not going to adopt a new child.

Depression is a truly awful beast.  I nearly flunked out of college(ended up taking a semester off to kinda-sorta-not really sort things out), graduated with a GPA I never mention because of how embarrassing it is, then took nearly a year to find a job after college, during which I did.... not much.  Eventually I did find a job, and positive momentum is a funny thing.  I'm a functional adult, a high performer at my job, and mostly normal, save a few scars from my past experiences.

People can and do recover from depression, but it usually requires the right kind of support from friends and/or family.  If your BIL truly is depressed, he needs support, and help from a qualified professional.  Of course as an adult, if he refuses help there's little you can do - but the reality is that his best chance involves getting help from a professional, which may require some nudging from those who care about him.

You and your family have my sympathies.  I've been there myself - and I know that I wasn't a lot of fun to deal with at the time.  Thankfully due to a combination of support and luck(in the form of a few opportunities that I managed to capitalize upon), I ended up finding my way to a better place.  It's not an easy road to follow, and it's an utterly terrifying one if you don't have the right kind of support at your side - but it's doable with the right support.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Mesmoiselle on August 18, 2018, 08:35:38 AM
High functioning depressed is a thing. I remember bawling while cleaning a whole house in the 18-23 zone many a time, even during 40 hours of tech school with a 30+ hours of work. Made a 3.9 GPA.

But all people are different
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: emduck on August 18, 2018, 01:09:12 PM
High functioning depressed is a thing. I remember bawling while cleaning a whole house in the 18-23 zone many a time, even during 40 hours of tech school with a 30+ hours of full time school. Made a 3.9 GPA.

But all people are different

Yeah I spent most of grad school basically high-functioning extremely depressed.  And people would say things to me like, "You're the only person here who doesn't hate grad school yet," and I'd just sort of shrug and not disagree.  I feel like working too much, and taking on basically every extra responsibility I could find, let me not have to think about it.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Paul der Krake on August 18, 2018, 07:56:35 PM
He's in his early 30s, never finished college, never had a job for more than a few weeks at a time. He's living with his dad, who for whatever reason is willing to feed and house him. He helps babysit our son occasionally, but spends most of his time watching TV and getting into arguments with strangers on the internet.
We have an entire forum section dedicated to people like that.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: Villanelle on August 18, 2018, 08:15:34 PM
It's been something of a big deal in Japan for a while now, where the term is officially hikikomori, with something like 700,000 individuals shutting themselves in for 6+ months according to their government. It's a big enough problem that these sorts of things are addressed in various media from novels to anime, from one of a character's relatives that's a shut in to the protagonist trying to overcome their situation. It's prevalent enough to have become something of a trope.

Hikikomori is specifically social withdrawal/isolation. While a lot of NEETs may be hikikomori they do not mean the same thing.

I've noticed the trend of NEETs in anime over the last decade. It's so weird to me that this is often glorified with characters proud of being a NEET.

This is what going to say.  Some Hikikomori have work from home jobs, and others are somehow independent finacially, whereas the implication with NEETS is that they are freeloading sponges.  And of course there are plenty of NEETS who leave the house and interact with others. 
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Mon€yp€nny on August 19, 2018, 05:53:10 PM
@LennStar I have worked for an international companies and I knew staying at work until the first person dares to leave and the team drinks after work were a thing. I've seen the bar bills and suspected many people had alcohol related issues there considering the amounts they drank in 60 to 90 minutes.
How do these people have anything left after paying for transport, food during work, nice clothes and the drinking? (and for the men, uh, other expenses. Visiting ladies of pleasure with their co-workers or/ and boss. I don't know about Japan but in China it seems to be very normal too.)
Is there anything left to feed and dress a wife and/ or children.at home?
I have seen a documentary once where this half slave man finally got his dinner at 11:30 pm in a one room filthy flat furnished with some mattresses and a TV. Horrible.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Steeze on August 19, 2018, 08:00:58 PM
My sister is like this in a lot of ways, although she is always employed.

Mid 30s, lives with my parents, no college, barely graduated HS. Parents are raising her daughter while working full time. Sister works but pays no rent, no day care, has free state healthcare, food stamps, etc. She doesn't help much around the house, and generally does not enjoy being a parent at all. Always complaining how my niece is a huge burden and how her life is hard because of her. Any time I am around my sister is MIA, not sure when she spends time with my niece. She's been on and off of drugs most of her life, and spends most of her money on weed and cigarettes. She is always running up credit card debt and can never afford anything when it comes up such as car repairs. The father is MIA.

My parents completely enable all of this. They have always bailed her out financially, paid off debt, given her a place to live, and food to eat. Even when she was partying like crazy. They themselves have no savings, no emergency fund, and no retirementand are in their 60s.

 My father manages all of her finances. He takes all of her paychecks and gives her an alllowance to make sure her bills (car insurance, cell ohone, etc. Get paid). This was part of the deal to move back in (5 years ago) to get out of debt and back on her own feet. She is incapable of paying a bill. He tried to give her one bill to be responsible for and it was late before long. Last I knew he had taken it back over. She is supposed to be saving to move out, but every time I talk to her she says she "needs to do better at saving". She doesn't make much, maybe 30k a year, but literally has no expenses aside from her car.

The worst part of all of this is her attitude toward my parents. She hates living with them, and genuinely feels burdened by having to deal with them. They don't get along at all. She thinks it's the worst to live there. I wish she would understand how easy she has it. My niece is growing up in a great home, something she would not be able to provide.

My oldest sister is now offering to take her and my niece on as dependants. She some how feels bad for my sister having to live with mom and dad, and thinks she can do better. Not sure how though, despite her high salary she cannot manage money either. To top it off, my parents live in a LCOL area, and oldest sister lives in a HCOL area. This will make it impossible for my other sister to become independent.

I just don't get it... I don't want help from anyone for anything.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Just Joe on August 20, 2018, 08:36:20 AM
Maybe the daughter ought to be raised separate from her mother to protect the daughter's mental health. I've known a few negative Nellys over the years and thought that they would be really hard on a child who didn't understand the adult's problems. Might create another generation of problems along the way.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: carolinap on August 20, 2018, 08:48:17 AM
I think this term NEET includes a lot of people, not necessarily freeloaders.
Technically, FIREd people may be "Not in Education, Employment, or Training".

Besides that, there are people with mental and physical health issues, people in temporary situations (just graduated, recently unemployed)...

But specifically in this reddit forum, the typical whining internet male seems to be the majority of people. The first posts I saw were blaming their NEET status over the fact that they are not good looking or not female, suggesting that it's easy to seduce a husband or an employer for money in this cases.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Just Joe on August 20, 2018, 08:51:12 AM
Denial of self-responsibility. I'm not GQ cover material either. I feel their pain. ;) /s
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: pachnik on August 20, 2018, 09:46:35 AM
Denial of self-responsibility. I'm not GQ cover material either. I feel their pain. ;) /s

This made me LOL!  Thanks Just Joe.  I am not Vogue material myself!  :)
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: LennStar on August 20, 2018, 11:22:17 AM
@LennStar
How do these people have anything left after paying for transport, food during work, nice clothes and the drinking? (and for the men, uh, other expenses. Visiting ladies of pleasure with their co-workers or/ and boss. I don't know about Japan but in China it seems to be very normal too.)
Is there anything left to feed and dress a wife and/ or children.at home?


That is the wrong question.

It should be liek this:
How do they get their wives to give them so much money?
Money in Japan is the (house)wife's responsibility and the man only gets an allowance.

Working Bee is the right comparison for those Salaryman ;)

I always think the "girls should not work" conservaties should get a healthy dose of this. A lot would probably change their mind.

btw. prostitution is forbidden since after WWII, I am quite sure because of America. Historically prostitution was very normal (no connection to sin like in Christianity) and depending on type a high-status occupation.
And, since we are speaking of Japan, this prohibition has lead to an amazing assortment of creative results. There are even establishments where you can "chikan" - molest girls in imitated trains. Of course there is only touching and never...

I would recommend you to read the German Wikipedia article of you can read German. The english leaves out all the interesting historical stuff.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Mon€yp€nny on August 20, 2018, 12:41:17 PM
Chikan sounds very sick. I wonder whether that lowers the number of rapes cause the fantasy has been full filed or that makes a great general rehearsals for sick individuals that will long for the real experience. Ick.
The German wiki mentioned China and South Korea too but we know people working in factories and sweat shops around the globe suffer in the same way as these office workers.
The world really has gone mad. Crap has to be produced for a couple of cents so everyone can gather a lot of  crap to impress others they don't even like and feel 'wealthy'. Owning all that crap causes stress, making people feel miserable and overwhelmed The crap goes to the scrap within months or weeks so we get crap in the air we breathe, the water we drink, products we eat. Who benefits from this, nobody seems to.

Didn't know Japanese men get an allowance, why do they get so much?
In the old days, workers were paid their weekly wages in the bar that was also owned by their boss. Or they would be paid on Saturday and walk straight to the pub with their money. The wives with guts waited for their husbands at the gate. Husband gave the wife his money, she would give him his allowance so he couldn't waste all their money on alcohol and gambling. Many children had moms that were not that brave and many went hungry cause dad was a drunk. An aggressive drunk. Is that the direction I have to take to understand why Japanese wives give their salary men such a large allowance?

But back to the topic. I actually hope my kids will stay with us for as long as they want. I'm just not going to support them.financially. So no job, no money.  When they are in college, they can get a small job, we will only finance the basic neccesities.
I hope they will stay home and save up. That will give them a nice start in life. When they have finished school I would expect some money for utilities, food and 'rent'
As long as they are respectful towards us, they can stay and save up as long as they want. Depending on their partner, I would not even mind it when a partner would move in temporarily.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Just Joe on August 21, 2018, 08:03:35 AM
@LennStar
How do these people have anything left after paying for transport, food during work, nice clothes and the drinking? (and for the men, uh, other expenses. Visiting ladies of pleasure with their co-workers or/ and boss. I don't know about Japan but in China it seems to be very normal too.)
Is there anything left to feed and dress a wife and/ or children.at home?


That is the wrong question.

It should be liek this:
How do they get their wives to give them so much money?
Money in Japan is the (house)wife's responsibility and the man only gets an allowance.

Working Bee is the right comparison for those Salaryman ;)

I always think the "girls should not work" conservaties should get a healthy dose of this. A lot would probably change their mind.

btw. prostitution is forbidden since after WWII, I am quite sure because of America. Historically prostitution was very normal (no connection to sin like in Christianity) and depending on type a high-status occupation.
And, since we are speaking of Japan, this prohibition has lead to an amazing assortment of creative results. There are even establishments where you can "chikan" - molest girls in imitated trains. Of course there is only touching and never...

I would recommend you to read the German Wikipedia article of you can read German. The english leaves out all the interesting historical stuff.

Google translate browser plugin. I've taken to reading multiple language versions of some articles on Wikipedia. Its worthwhile.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: LennStar on August 21, 2018, 10:13:09 AM
Google translate browser plugin. I've taken to reading multiple language versions of some articles on Wikipedia. Its worthwhile.

Let's just say I don't trust automatic translations. Wikipedia might work better then most pages (I am sure google somehow usese WP as training material) though.

But if you have machine translations you might try this one:
https://www.deepl.com/translator

German -> English should work very well.

oh, I see I forgot the link for those interested:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Japan
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Gondolin on August 22, 2018, 08:02:24 AM
Quote
She grew up in a country that's been consistently at war since she was a baby, where income inequality is rampant, and where government has been heavily influenced by wealth and radicalized religious fundamentalism

So....she grew up in America?
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: LennStar on August 23, 2018, 07:42:28 AM
Quote
She grew up in a country that's been consistently at war since she was a baby, where income inequality is rampant, and where government has been heavily influenced by wealth and radicalized religious fundamentalism

So....she grew up in America?

You mean the USA.
Always the same error...
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Kitsunegari on October 05, 2018, 10:06:18 AM
This 3d reminded me of an Onion article

https://www.theonion.com/i-m-just-a-free-spirit-who-is-entirely-financially-depe-1819584910
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: LibrarianFuzz on October 05, 2018, 03:16:10 PM
This is...horrifying.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: LibrarianFuzz on October 05, 2018, 03:21:04 PM
How would the parent break the cycle?

Give Junior $20 and send them on an errand, then change the locks.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: Nederstash on October 07, 2018, 04:00:33 AM
Holy heck GS!

I've always enjoyed reading your posts since they seem to be full of wisdom. It seems *extensive* experience comes with that wisdom, or maybe even created it.

Sorry you had to deal with all that. You know the forum loves you here.

I feel the love, especially when it comes with sarcasm attached.

Wisdom comes from experience, and experience comes from doing unwise things. I certainly did my share. Sadly, I also have the kind of mind that likes to replay things and to look at them from several different directions, simultaneously.

Holy crap, Squeaks. You know we love you, right? You're one of my favorite people here, probably because of your sharp tongue and shiny spine. I'm sorry your daughter acts like this, you never deserved that. Sometimes nature trumps nurture... but you have to let her hit rock bottom. Someone on reddit said that saving someone is also a form of enabling, by not letting someone face the consequences of their actions. Can't imagine how tough this must be. For what it's worth, from one random commenter on the planet to another: I'm proud of you!
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: NevermindScrooge on October 21, 2018, 12:34:27 PM
Well, I clicked on this thread because I thought I might learn something new, having never heard of NEET. Well, you didn't disappoint, I certainly learned, but ye gods, how is this a thing? I absolutely feel very sorry for the people who genuinely want to change their circumstances but find themselves thwarted; however, the parasites among them, I cannot wrap my head around the lack of empathy and pride. By pride I mean that I assumed that everyone would be ashamed if anyone found out that you're leeching of anyone. So thank you OP for making me a bit less naive ;)

@GrimSqueaker: you have been my favourite person on this forum for a long time. I think your comments are always funny, insightful and to the point and I kinda want to be like you when I grow up. Your story in dealing with your daughter is chilling and you deserve so much respect for enduring it. Warm internet hugs from the Netherlands!
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: LennStar on October 22, 2018, 12:40:37 PM
however, the parasites among them, I cannot wrap my head around the lack of empathy and pride. By pride I mean that I assumed that everyone would be ashamed if anyone found out that you're leeching of anyone.

Hm... lets talk a bit realism here, right?

What do you mean with parasites?
Those people the follow the evolutionary successful path of doing the least possible amount of work?  From the species point there is nothing to blame, those people and their genes are more likely to survive in certain situations. Like some trees have leefes earlier than others, and/or lose them earler too. 

Do you coll those of the opposite position wasters?
You surely should! We are wasting tremendous amounts of finite resources and btw destroying those that regenerate in increasing pace. If there were more "leechers", we maybe would not destroy what makes the survival of humanity possible.

Of course you could also call those work bees egoistic, not giving away work and pressing other to their conformation of what a "good life" should be e.g. work under bad conditions until you die, instead of just what you need.

 
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on October 22, 2018, 12:51:32 PM
What do you mean with parasites?
Those people the follow the evolutionary successful path of doing the least possible amount of work?

The people who actively weaken the support system that allows them to get by doing the least possible amount of work.

Parasites harm the host as opposed to having a symbiotic relationship with it.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: onlykelsey on October 22, 2018, 12:56:53 PM
Someone posted about the "Karpman triangle" elsewhere and now I see it everywhere (in romantic relationships, family relationships, and even more social phenomena like this). 

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/

I wonder if MMMers are generally starting from the persecutor or rescuer position on the triangle...
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on October 22, 2018, 02:35:34 PM
Someone posted about the "Karpman triangle" elsewhere and now I see it everywhere (in romantic relationships, family relationships, and even more social phenomena like this). 

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/

I wonder if MMMers are generally starting from the persecutor or rescuer position on the triangle...

So far as I can tell we don't buy into the triangle or its behavior patterns at all.

I read through the article but after I picked through all the jargon I decided I didn't agree with it even after looking up some of the terminology so that the multiple definitions for the same phenomena started to have some semblance of consistency. It's so incredibly reactive and mindless. I've seen some people who do behave like that, but they're such a tiny subset of the population and generally they're suffering from severe untreated mental illness or substance impairment. Or both. Many of the underclass people I've come across in my interaction with my daughter behave that way. Even she is gradually snapping out of it.

To participate in that triangle thing requires an ongoing commitment to the interaction and to the drama. As in, the person on the triangle values the interaction more than he or she values having a healthy and drama-free life. So does everyone else on the triangle. The person at, say, the "persecutor" corner is therefore confident that he or she can persecute at will and still have the same relationship as before. When the victim or target buggers off instead of sticking around for more, and dials down or discontinues the relationship, the triangle collapses. All it takes is to vote (d) "None of the above", take whatever it is you're bringing to the group, and step back a bit. They have to come around, if they want further access to your resources.
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on November 11, 2018, 12:47:01 AM
Quote
She grew up in a country that's been consistently at war since she was a baby, where income inequality is rampant, and where government has been heavily influenced by wealth and radicalized religious fundamentalism

So....she grew up in America?

You mean the USA.
Always the same error...

Please. We prefer the more sociologically correct moniker, "Yankistan".
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
Post by: eyesonthehorizon on November 11, 2018, 10:59:41 PM
So far as I can tell we don't buy into the triangle or its behavior patterns at all. ... I've seen some people who do behave like that, but they're such a tiny subset of the population and generally they're suffering from severe untreated mental illness or substance impairment.
I don't think it's a bad lay framework of common inherited social dysfunction, but as often happens in a bid for relevance and bookings for the Reality Guide (is that trademarked?), the strongest language ("all of us!") was chosen. It's only relevant when two off-balance people interact, but as a counselor Reality Guide, the writer is subject to selection bias, since when a healthy person encounters this they do step away, just as you say, the unhealthy one gets an object lesson, and it's over. In cases of two or more dysfunctional people, a counselor is more likely to see it, because it can and will drag on forever.

I wonder if MMMers are generally starting from the persecutor or rescuer position on the triangle...
The writer seems to put forth that the appropriate place is "off the triangle," though I'd say that's possibly better described as in the center, a healthy place of self-responsibility, agency, and staying in your own lane. I'd like to think Squeaker's right about mustachians in their present-day lives, meaning most of us would be fairly central by this register. People in healthy families get to start there, or close.

Judging from the sheer length of the Relatives thread, though, a lot of us would be said to come from awful "starting gate" positions and had to learn to cope to get here. I've seen a TON of erstwhile rescuers on the forum, often hoping for help and encouragement learning to prioritize their own wellbeing (hi). But a lot of mustachian converts (and, I'd say, an alarming number of people in the US generally) have grown up with the message they couldn't solve their own problems and were dependent on (paying) someone else (or something else) to come save them (repair their car, repair their self-image, repair their social standing...). Take the waaah-brigade MMM writes about, comfortable middle-class people who bewilderingly substitute defeatism for agency, for example - even if they're otherwise functional adults, a little too much victimhood is arguably all that stands between them and FI, summed up as "I can't!"
Title: Re: NEET. Not neat.
Post by: dude on November 14, 2018, 07:21:23 AM
I mean based on the literal definition of the acronym itself, aren't a lot of us aiming to ultimately be NEET? That said, moving away from the word for word definition and into the posters on that subreddit: Ugh.

Slee_Stack, I think the below might have been one of the replies to the same poster you found.

Quote
That's funny, my parents suddenly dying is the one thing that gives me any hope. After he's gone I would have more than enough money to buy my own place and live extremely cheaply. I would probably have to get some shitty part time job eventually but if I could actually afford to live on my own I could live with that.
Young is a relative term, so yes, a literal interpretation of NEET describes many of us here.  I hope I don't ever get lumped in with that though.

The quote you found is even more disturbing.  Yuck.  Do people really think this way?  How awful.

Sadly, yes.

I browsed through some of the posts on that board and the evidence suggests that, yes, there's quite the little cluster of them. Many of them have mental illnesses such as anxiety and depression, but the disorders are not being sufficiently treated because the "NEET lifestyle" of living in someone else's home, doing no work, and contributing nothing to the household is easier. They are being enabled by other people, typically parents, whom they invariably resent or even despise. They do not wish to work because they believe that the only available jobs are "soul killing", however they systematically reject every other course of action that could lead to independence. They are self-absorbed enough (possibly as a consequence of the various mental illnesses) to not really consider the extent to which their freeloading affects others. They *despise* the people who support them and regard them with contempt.

Their world view is kind of like my daughter's, except introverted. All the NEETs want is to stay in their own rooms and only come out to eat and consume, or possibly buy things although there's a recurring theme of frugality because many of them just don't have money available because of the work decisions they've made. By contrast, my daughter is almost hyperactive socially wants to be constantly going places (just not school or work) and doing things (just not productive or financially viable activity).

my god, this is my wife's cousin to a "T". His mother has coddled him all his life. He hasn't held down a job for more than a few weeks at a time. Relatives say, "oh, he's got mental health issues." Bullshit. He's a lazy piece of shit! His father -- from whom he was estranged for a while as a result of the parents' divorce -- died not too long ago after a long battle with cancer (the son provided no comfort or emotional support whatsoever) and left him and his brother a fair amount of money (including a rental property). It is a foregone conclusion this kid will fritter the money away in a matter of a couple years, if not months. I have no sympathy for people like this whatsoever.