Post by: frugalfoothills on January 25, 2018, 03:09:29 PM
My sister, 26 years old, and her husband, 29 years old, both currently unemployed.
My sister has a bachelor's degree and a master's that my parents paid for out of pocket. Zero student loans, graduated in May of 2016. My brother-in-law graduated from chiropractic school in December 2017 with $90k in student loan debt. Sister got a part-time job at a hospital and worked for a year (October 2016 to October 2017), then quit her job so that she and the BIL could relocate.
Relocation is happening so that he can open his own chiropractic office. They have taken a loan from his father for $150k to get the practice up and running. Original start date was supposed to be March of 2018, but has since been pushed out until July at the earliest. For those doing the math: 7 months away.
In the meantime, neither are planning on getting jobs. They are renting a 3 br house (it's just the 2 of them) for $2k a month and using the business loan to pay their rent. They are also exclusively shopping at Whole Foods (they only eat organic), are considering purchasing a new (to them) car, and have made plenty of other questionable purchases using the business loan as if it's "income."
$90k in student loan debt, $150k business loan. Both loans set to come due starting in July, or month 1 that they're open for business. They're planning on using money leftover in the business loan to make his student loan payments if needed. No word on what they'll be using to make the business loan payments, and no word on how they'll be paying themselves! The mystery. The intrigue.
Whenever money comes up and my sis senses some skepticism on behalf of my family, I am informed that my BIL was part of a "special program" in chiropractic school (this program is apparently affiliated with the school in some way, but you have to pay to be a part of it on top of your tuition?) that taught him the secrets of how to become a millionaire within a year. They're expecting to be VERY wealthy VERY quickly through this chiropractic office.
Am I missing something here? Are most chiropractors millionaires? Is starting a chiropractic office somehow different than starting other businesses that would make it more lucrative more quickly?
They've also told me that they're planning on buying "a lot of land" (they're in a HCOL area) and building their dream house, and also building homes on the land for myself, my parents, and his parents. That's the level of delusion we're talking about here.
Post by: Just Joe on January 25, 2018, 03:12:29 PM
Post by: frugalfoothills on January 25, 2018, 03:19:18 PM
What school? Fly-by-night affair?
I don't want to say specifically, and I don't know *too* much about the credibility of chiropractic schools in general, but it was a real university in the southeast that seems like a legit school to me (and I am a highly skeptical person by nature.) That being said, this whole "get rich quick" program they allow to be affiliated with them makes me question things. Even if it's not offered BY the school, the school advertises it and allows their students pay to be a part of this program where they're pumped full of information about how chiropractic is a literal godsend and cures all (cancer, IBS, psoriasis, etc. etc.) and are encouraged to seek out "customers." They have to pay to participate on top of tuition, and are also required to work for other chiropractors who are part of this program for free as some kind of side "internship"... the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Post by: faithless on January 25, 2018, 03:37:44 PM
pumped full of information about how chiropractic is a literal godsend and cures all (cancer, IBS, psoriasis, etc. etc.) and are encouraged to seek out "customers." They have to pay to participate on top of tuition, and are also required to work for other chiropractors who are part of this program for free as some kind of side "internship"
Was the extra course 'applying reverse funnel system techniques to your chiropractic practice'?
Post by: frugalecon on January 25, 2018, 03:48:02 PM
Post by: bacchi on January 25, 2018, 04:16:23 PM
To determine whether a chiropractor can become a millionaire in a year, I would start by multiplying the number of patients a chiropractor can see in a week by the planned fee, multiply that by 50 (two weeks off/year), and then subtract out business expenses. Perhaps cloning is part of the secret.
If every patient is 5 minutes in-and-out, and an upsell healing crystal is sold, it can be done.
Chiropractors can make good money but they should stick to bones and muscles. All of the woo-woo curing cancer BS just makes their profession seem silly.
Post by: frugalfoothills on January 25, 2018, 04:36:21 PM
To determine whether a chiropractor can become a millionaire in a year, I would start by multiplying the number of patients a chiropractor can see in a week by the planned fee, multiply that by 50 (two weeks off/year), and then subtract out business expenses. Perhaps cloning is part of the secret.
If every patient is 5 minutes in-and-out, and an upsell healing crystal is sold, it can be done.
Chiropractors can make good money but they should stick to bones and muscles. All of the woo-woo curing cancer BS just makes their profession seem silly.
The real irony is that both he and my sister ascribe to this (they are very anti hospital, anti doctors, anti medication) but my sister has a chronic skin condition. She preaches that chiropractic and a vegan diet can heal anything, and yet she isn't able to touch things like literal SOAP without experiencing this crippling "breakout" that renders her incapable of doing anything. I'm constantly told about how various things in my life will kill me and give me cancer (nail polish, candles, tap water, MAMMOGRAMS) and meanwhile she is sitting there unable to pet her dog without wearing special gloves.
I do feel for her with the health issues, but it's hard not to sit and shake your head at the cognitive dissonance.
Post by: TempusFugit on January 25, 2018, 04:54:29 PM
I'm not really sold on chiropractors as legit medical professionals, but I certainly separate the ones who seem to stay within the boundary of back pain issues from the truly weird ones who think an "adjustment" can cure any disease. There seems (in my limited experience) to be a big overlap in a Venn diagram of chiropractors and anti-vaxxer types.
To be fair, I think there's lots of evidence that back surgeons are equally guilty of reliance upon the placebo effect. And one might argue that they put people at much more risk.
I hope to never need the service of either, and I'm sure that if I'm unlucky enough to suffer from chronic pain, I'll be equally eager to find someone who promises to help.
Post by: Cowardly Toaster on January 25, 2018, 05:10:40 PM
Quite the risky game your family is playing. A new practice doesn't just come with patients, they'll have to build up their base first. And what the heck about the special program he was in in school? that just sounds sketchy.
Post by: frugalfoothills on January 25, 2018, 05:12:15 PM
I've got some chiropractor friends that do very well financially. The key is to own the clinic and employ lower paid chiropractors to work at said clinic, thus multiplying your throughput.
I'm not really sold on chiropractors as legit medical professionals, but I certainly separate the ones who seem to stay within the boundary of back pain issues from the truly weird ones who think an "adjustment" can cure any disease. There seems (in my limited experience) to be a big overlap in a Venn diagram of chiropractors and anti-vaxxer types.
To be fair, I think there's lots of evidence that back surgeons are equally guilty of reliance upon the placebo effect. And one might argue that they put people at much more risk.
I hope to never need the service of either, and I'm sure that if I'm unlucky enough to suffer from chronic pain, I'll be equally eager to find someone who promises to help.
I actually am pretty pro-chiropractic due to a back injury I incurred in high school. Sports therapists, orthopedists, my general practitioner... no one could help me until I saw a chiropractor. I swear that dude had magic hands.
But telling someone with cancer to forego chemo and eat vegan and see a chiropractor instead? Damn son, you got balls. I'm not willing to gamble anyone's life on that.
But back to the finances: I can't get the math to work. He will be the only chiropractor. To gross a million bucks, he'd need to see 385 patients a week at $50 a pop. 385 patients in a 40 hour work week means almost 10 patients an hour. My chiropractor sees about 2.
Wtf?
Post by: Cpa Cat on January 25, 2018, 05:26:10 PM
Am I missing something here? Are most chiropractors millionaires? Is starting a chiropractic office somehow different than starting other businesses that would make it more lucrative more quickly?
I have several chiropractor clients and none are millionaires, but they do have healthy incomes. However, by healthy, I mean low six-figures. They have also been building their businesses for several years. Will they be millionaires one day? Yes, in all likelihood, and it will go quicker than the average working schlup.
On the other hand, there is a lot of competition in the chiropractic industry. It often seems as though there's a chiropractor on every corner. With that kind of competition, there's only so much a chiropractor can charge.
The most successful of the chiropractors - the only Chiropractic-Millionaire I know - branched out from regular work. He became the exclusive chiropractor for a successful sports team, and then he designed app to help people do stretches that target their particular problem, and then he got a big corporate contract where he goes into giant corporate offices and gives lectures, adjustments, and makes recommendations in order to assist in reducing workplace injuries and worker's comp claims.
As others have mentioned - it would require a staggering number of patients to make a million in one year - and that's gross. Then there are employee costs for processing insurance claims, overhead costs for rent, taxes, marketing, insurance, etc. Then you'd need the patients to be filling the schedule on day one. In order to get patients, a significant amount of networking needs to occur - but there's no time in that schedule for unpaid networking.
I'm sure his father will accept a delay in payment terms.
Post by: The_Dude on January 25, 2018, 05:42:20 PM
A friend of a friend worked at a high volume chiropractor for a while. Apparently they had amazing patient per hour throughput. Treated everything like an assembly line and the chiropractor used the same basic adjustments on nearly everyone. Most patients saw the actual chiropractor for a very short time (don't recall exactly, maybe 5 minutes?) and of course they used heavy sales tactics to try and keep people coming indefinitely for "preventative care."
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on January 25, 2018, 05:45:19 PM
Post by: southern granny on January 25, 2018, 06:16:08 PM
I don't go to Chiropractors and I also don't go to Faith Healers or Hoodoo Fortune Tellers. They are all pretty much the same thing.As a 60 year old woman who has had back trouble since I was 19, I am convinced I would be in a wheel chair by now without chiropractors or dead from pain killers. I have a very good cp, but I know where he lives and I am pretty sure he isn't a millionaire, but he is only about 38, so he may be someday.
Post by: Sibley on January 25, 2018, 08:04:04 PM
Also, don't lend anyone a penny until you know how everything is going to fall out. Including future EOC/enabling.
Post by: frugalecon on January 25, 2018, 08:08:19 PM
Just out of curiosity, I googled the name of a chiropractic university I had heard of in a major Southern city and “scam,” and I found a lot of hits. I am sure someone is earning a million dollars, but it may not be the students....
Post by: bacchi on January 25, 2018, 10:57:40 PM
The “special program” sounds like it could be a multi-level marketing scheme. That would be a way to gross a cool mill without much trouble.
Yo, it's not an MLM. It's a reverse funnel!
Post by: damyst on January 26, 2018, 12:45:21 AM
Wow. OP, assuming you'll see your family for holidays, etc - prepare for drama. Popcorn, lots of it. Maybe 4th of July, definitely Thanksgiving, and increasing chances in between.
I'd love to see some updates from the OP later in the year.
It would be awesome if their plan works out and the whole family is rolling in dough, but... yeah, don't forget that popcorn.
Post by: Dicey on January 26, 2018, 01:25:34 AM
I don't go to Chiropractors and I also don't go to Faith Healers or Hoodoo Fortune Tellers. They are all pretty much the same thing.If you don't go, then how do you know?
To the OP, the most cringe worthy part of this story is the FIL. I sure hope he can afford to lose this much money.
Post by: Davnasty on January 26, 2018, 09:32:49 AM
I had an x-ray and a few adjustments at one of those places and they were clearly promoting the "Chiropractors are magic healers" view. I even went to a cancer "educational" event after I had realized how bad it was - because there was free food. That's when I saw who their clientele was; mostly middle aged to elderly overweight women who were looking for something to fix all their problems. Prepaying thousands for 2-3 adjustments/week.
Post by: ms on January 26, 2018, 12:20:25 PM
Now I go to a chiropractor whenever I get tightness in my lower back and I come back on my schedule. This new guy is very easy going and only if the adjustment was particularly difficult will he suggest to come back sooner than I normally would.
Post by: boarder42 on January 26, 2018, 12:43:35 PM
man all you nay sayers should really re-evaluate this- i cant believe more people arent requesting to go to this school.
Post by: Just Joe on January 26, 2018, 12:56:47 PM
Post by: Davnasty on January 26, 2018, 01:39:56 PM
I fell for that kind of chiropractic care. The guy did our x-rays and clearly mine was worse than my child's and so he preyed on my emotions and said that with his treatment we can avoid my kid becoming as bad as me. So we prepaid thousands of dollars and went to treatments 2-3x a week for however long. It was an assembly line. He had three tables set up with a half wall divider between, an electronic system that called your name and table number. He would spend <5 mins with each patient and send them on their way. It took a few months that I realized that it was just a sales technique and it was not so much about our health.
Now I go to a chiropractor whenever I get tightness in my lower back and I come back on my schedule. This new guy is very easy going and only if the adjustment was particularly difficult will he suggest to come back sooner than I normally would.
That's the one, right down to the three tables with wall dividers. They even told my girlfriend that her cancer was 'probably' because of that subluxation in her spine.
I almost felt bad for the chiropractor too because she was young and seemed to sincerely believe what she was saying. On the other hand she's the one making money off of it, so screw her.
Post by: BabyShark on January 26, 2018, 02:06:16 PM
Post by: Mac_MacGyver on January 27, 2018, 04:01:38 AM
Post by: frugalfoothills on January 27, 2018, 07:52:38 AM
I fell for that kind of chiropractic care. The guy did our x-rays and clearly mine was worse than my child's and so he preyed on my emotions and said that with his treatment we can avoid my kid becoming as bad as me. So we prepaid thousands of dollars and went to treatments 2-3x a week for however long. It was an assembly line. He had three tables set up with a half wall divider between, an electronic system that called your name and table number. He would spend <5 mins with each patient and send them on their way. It took a few months that I realized that it was just a sales technique and it was not so much about our health.
Now I go to a chiropractor whenever I get tightness in my lower back and I come back on my schedule. This new guy is very easy going and only if the adjustment was particularly difficult will he suggest to come back sooner than I normally would.
That's the one, right down to the three tables with wall dividers. They even told my girlfriend that her cancer was 'probably' because of that subluxation in her spine.
I almost felt bad for the chiropractor too because she was young and seemed to sincerely believe what she was saying. On the other hand she's the one making money off of it, so screw her.
This is 100% something my sis and her husband would think/say. I get feeling conflicted because they’re so earnest in their beliefs.... but like you said, they’re making money off fear mongering (at best! At worst they are gambling with peoples lives if you’re telling a cancer patient to forego the advice of their oncologist because Medicine Bad, Holistic Good.) I do not think the university teaches that crap, I think it was pumped into my BIL by the special program he took part in. Genius really, when you think about it... they have convinced these kids that it’s not a scam to solicit customers off the street and convince them to spend $1500 on a preventative care package because they’ve been brainwashed into thinking they are literally saving lives with chiropractic.
I mean, you want to act like a real doctor who heals and you want to have chiropractic seen as a form of medicine... but I’m trying to imagine my gynecologist passing out flyers on the side of the road to convince people they need weekly Pap smears instead of every year, and I just can’t visualize it....
Post by: frugalfoothills on January 27, 2018, 07:58:28 AM
OP do you get to design your own home or will they design the home?
Good question!! Also will I need to pay anything to live in this dream home or am I now a kept woman? Kept by my brother in law (since that’s not weird or anything)
Post by: penguintroopers on January 27, 2018, 03:43:08 PM
Wow. OP, assuming you'll see your family for holidays, etc - prepare for drama. Popcorn, lots of it. Maybe 4th of July, definitely Thanksgiving, and increasing chances in between.
I'd love to see some updates from the OP later in the year.
It would be awesome if their plan works out and the whole family is rolling in dough, but... yeah, don't forget that popcorn.
Posting to follow as well. I foresee implosion when the practice isn't actually open until August, and a very ugly Thanksgiving when the dad is wondering when the couple will actually start making payments.
Post by: YttriumNitrate on January 27, 2018, 05:26:29 PM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/04/29/medicare-data-chiropractors-reimbursements/7720741/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/04/29/medicare-data-chiropractors-reimbursements/7720741/)
Post by: Apple_Tango on January 28, 2018, 02:27:22 PM
https://youtu.be/xU3l7Ylx1CU
Post by: Parizade on January 28, 2018, 03:20:54 PM
DON'T DO IT!
Post by: frugalfoothills on January 28, 2018, 05:58:41 PM
Been following your other thread (re: your deadbeat roommate) and all I can think is DON'T LET THEM MOVE IN WITH YOU WHEN THEY CRASH AND BURN!!!!! because I predict they will expect you (aka BIL Moneybags) to bail them out. Because you're such a nice guy and helped out your friend for all those years. And now that she's moved out you have all this extra room so why wouldn't you let them move in for awhile? Because they WILL be millionaires soon you know.
DON'T DO IT!
HAHAHA!! More like SIL Moneybags, but close enough. Hey who knows, maybe my karmic retribution for the roommate situation will be my sis and BIL striking it rich and someone will toss some cash MY way for a change ;)
Post by: Cassie on January 28, 2018, 06:22:08 PM
Post by: AccidentalMiser on January 28, 2018, 06:27:03 PM
Been following your other thread (re: your deadbeat roommate) and all I can think is DON'T LET THEM MOVE IN WITH YOU WHEN THEY CRASH AND BURN!!!!! because I predict they will expect you (aka BIL Moneybags) to bail them out. Because you're such a nice guy and helped out your friend for all those years. And now that she's moved out you have all this extra room so why wouldn't you let them move in for awhile? Because they WILL be millionaires soon you know.
DON'T DO IT!
This. They are headed for ruin.
Post by: BlueHouse on January 28, 2018, 06:36:31 PM
Life college obviously teaches marketing because every Life Chiropractor that I've gone to had the same exact spiel. I didn't mind it, it worked for my pain. The spiel was always that I needed 3-4 times per week, tapering down to 1xweek until I could finally go on maintenance at 1x/month. It seemed to coincide with what my insurance paid. Once I realized that most Life DCs couldn't go off script, it started to annoy me. I knew what I needed and when I needed it -- and some were okay with that and others really couldn't deal with it. I also found that every DC had their favorite "toys" to loosen you up until they could adjust you -- then you just find a doc whose toys you like. I finally found one who had a massage therapist on staff (and I could get insurance to pay for massages). The regular massages taught me that my pain was from muscle tension. Turns out that ibuprofen immediatlely cures my headaches! And regular stretching/exercise and hydration avoids neck and headaches all together. I'm now convinced that chiropractors aren't for me -- I could have saved a lot of money if I had known earlier.
Post by: Parizade on January 29, 2018, 05:33:26 AM
HAHAHA!! More like SIL Moneybags, but close enough. Hey who knows, maybe my karmic retribution for the roommate situation will be my sis and BIL striking it rich and someone will toss some cash MY way for a change ;)
oops, sorry for the mixup! My experience with FI has been that the wealthier I get the more friends and family expect ME to toss cash their way. Like you, I have an excess of empathy and am too happy to help. Learn from mistakes! I still enjoy giving and helping but now I have very firm boundaries. I give what I want to give and no more.
Post by: frugalfoothills on January 29, 2018, 08:28:20 AM
oh yeah, definitely can become a millionaire within a few years. I went to Chiropractors for about 20 years and they really helped my neck and back pain. When I moved to Atlanta, there was a Chiropractor every place you look, all of whom graduated from Life College. Life also offers degrees in nutrition, so it makes sense that just about every Chiropractic grad is also a nutrition expert/enthusiast.
Life college obviously teaches marketing because every Life Chiropractor that I've gone to had the same exact spiel. I didn't mind it, it worked for my pain. The spiel was always that I needed 3-4 times per week, tapering down to 1xweek until I could finally go on maintenance at 1x/month. It seemed to coincide with what my insurance paid. Once I realized that most Life DCs couldn't go off script, it started to annoy me. I knew what I needed and when I needed it -- and some were okay with that and others really couldn't deal with it. I also found that every DC had their favorite "toys" to loosen you up until they could adjust you -- then you just find a doc whose toys you like. I finally found one who had a massage therapist on staff (and I could get insurance to pay for massages). The regular massages taught me that my pain was from muscle tension. Turns out that ibuprofen immediatlely cures my headaches! And regular stretching/exercise and hydration avoids neck and headaches all together. I'm now convinced that chiropractors aren't for me -- I could have saved a lot of money if I had known earlier.
I wasn't planning on disclosing the name of his college but since you tossed it out there, he also graduated from Life. I didn't realize they were also a nutrition/exercise school... makes sense why everything gets tangled together instead of keeping chiropractic treatment separate from all the other stuff.
Like many on this thread have echoed, I have (through my own research over the past year or so) figured out that chiropractors seem to fall into 2 separate schools of thought: new age and old school. Old School chiros seem more interested in treating injuries (example: when I fucked up my back so bad I couldn't walk and no one could help me until I saw a chiropractor), whereas these New Age chiros are interested in selling an idea.... eat well and avoid all traditional western medicine and opt for alternative, holistic methods instead. Eat vegan and get 3 adjustments a week and you'll never get cancer, never have issues, never experience disease or pain. It's a crock.
It's also dangerous because it's a profitable crock and you're preying on people's fears to get them to sign up for treatments that they might not even need. I mean, my BIL once told me that they adjusted a 3 day old infant one time! Get the fuck outta here.
Post by: dude on January 29, 2018, 08:44:30 AM
Post by: Beard N Bones on January 29, 2018, 10:45:50 AM
oh yeah, definitely can become a millionaire within a few years. I went to Chiropractors for about 20 years and they really helped my neck and back pain. When I moved to Atlanta, there was a Chiropractor every place you look, all of whom graduated from Life College. Life also offers degrees in nutrition, so it makes sense that just about every Chiropractic grad is also a nutrition expert/enthusiast.
Life college obviously teaches marketing because every Life Chiropractor that I've gone to had the same exact spiel. I didn't mind it, it worked for my pain. The spiel was always that I needed 3-4 times per week, tapering down to 1xweek until I could finally go on maintenance at 1x/month. It seemed to coincide with what my insurance paid. Once I realized that most Life DCs couldn't go off script, it started to annoy me. I knew what I needed and when I needed it -- and some were okay with that and others really couldn't deal with it. I also found that every DC had their favorite "toys" to loosen you up until they could adjust you -- then you just find a doc whose toys you like. I finally found one who had a massage therapist on staff (and I could get insurance to pay for massages). The regular massages taught me that my pain was from muscle tension. Turns out that ibuprofen immediatlely cures my headaches! And regular stretching/exercise and hydration avoids neck and headaches all together. I'm now convinced that chiropractors aren't for me -- I could have saved a lot of money if I had known earlier.
I wasn't planning on disclosing the name of his college but since you tossed it out there, he also graduated from Life. I didn't realize they were also a nutrition/exercise school... makes sense why everything gets tangled together instead of keeping chiropractic treatment separate from all the other stuff.
Like many on this thread have echoed, I have (through my own research over the past year or so) figured out that chiropractors seem to fall into 2 separate schools of thought: new age and old school. Old School chiros seem more interested in treating injuries (example: when I fucked up my back so bad I couldn't walk and no one could help me until I saw a chiropractor), whereas these New Age chiros are interested in selling an idea.... eat well and avoid all traditional western medicine and opt for alternative, holistic methods instead. Eat vegan and get 3 adjustments a week and you'll never get cancer, never have issues, never experience disease or pain. It's a crock.
It's also dangerous because it's a profitable crock and you're preying on people's fears to get them to sign up for treatments that they might not even need. I mean, my BIL once told me that they adjusted a 3 day old infant one time! Get the fuck outta here.
As a chiropractor, I would disagree with this. Chiropractic has traditionally taken a dogmatic approach, believing that the underlying issue of someone's problem is an "undisputed"/"non-verifiable" entity called the "vertebral subluxation." (This had a lot to do with the conflict that the AMA had with the chiropractors decades ago.) This is what you are referring to when you talk about the 'New Age' Chiros. This has been around since the beginning of Chiropractic in North America. I would submit to you that a high quality Chiropractor (or any other type of health care practitioner) is one that will take three things into account with every single patient they see: 1. What the patient brings (their need, their beliefs, their situation) 2. What the scientific body of evidence says about the condition at hand 3. The Chiropractor's own knowledge & expertise. All three must be taken into account.
Regarding treatment of infants, a couple of points: I would submit to you that treating an infant would look very different than the treatment you would receive - for very obvious reasons. From a scientific research perspective - infants are not part of the gold standard, double-blind research studies. For ethical reasons, it just doesn't happen. The bulk of research done with infants, are retrospective studies. Physiotherapists will work with the neck of an infant if he/she does not turn their head in one direction like the other. This care is done so that mother can have baby breastfeed from both breasts. Don't see how a chiropractor working on an infant to help their joints and nerves function better isn't any different. I can tell you that the mothers are happy that their infant can feed from both sides after the infants treatment - and then for some reason their child isn't as fussy and sleeps better. I'd submit to you that there are times where a "trial of therapy" is worth it when dealing with infants and children. Its when the interests of the patient are neglected - that is when we all need to demand better!
Chiropractic millionaires. Yeah, absolutely. The two reasons a chiropractor will not be a millionaire: 1. They take part in lifestyle inflation like others do. 2. They are exceptionally bad chiropractors. (A chiro making a million per year - I would not have myself or my family treated by someone that treated me like a herd animal. That smacks of a practitioner of having their own pocket book as greater interest than the care of their patients.)
Post by: robartsd on January 29, 2018, 11:35:55 AM
The type you describe are what gives the profession a bad name. A reputable one will spend time with you and tell you that you will know when you need to come back. Also a reputable chiropractor will stick to their expertise which is not curing cancer, etc. I have moved a lot so have had to change doctors and all I have been to have done well but I doubt they were millionaires young. No doubt if smart with their $ that they become ones eventually. My chiropractor in general sees 4 patients an hour. If you need more time he gives it to you. Some people take less time to adjust depending on what the issue is.I've had similar experience with chiropractors. At best, I could se a reputable chiropractor serving about 6 patients an hour - assuming the've organized the office well and have good staff handling as much of the paperwork and additional therapy as possible. If somehow they've managed to convince enough patients that they are the absolute best available and can charge $100 per adjustment (more than twice what I pay), they might gross $1 million in a year; but, I'm sure overhead would take a sizable chunch of it and that practice would take many years to build.
Post by: Dragonswan on January 29, 2018, 11:58:51 AM
Post by: frugalfoothills on January 30, 2018, 08:26:00 AM
oh yeah, definitely can become a millionaire within a few years. I went to Chiropractors for about 20 years and they really helped my neck and back pain. When I moved to Atlanta, there was a Chiropractor every place you look, all of whom graduated from Life College. Life also offers degrees in nutrition, so it makes sense that just about every Chiropractic grad is also a nutrition expert/enthusiast.
Life college obviously teaches marketing because every Life Chiropractor that I've gone to had the same exact spiel. I didn't mind it, it worked for my pain. The spiel was always that I needed 3-4 times per week, tapering down to 1xweek until I could finally go on maintenance at 1x/month. It seemed to coincide with what my insurance paid. Once I realized that most Life DCs couldn't go off script, it started to annoy me. I knew what I needed and when I needed it -- and some were okay with that and others really couldn't deal with it. I also found that every DC had their favorite "toys" to loosen you up until they could adjust you -- then you just find a doc whose toys you like. I finally found one who had a massage therapist on staff (and I could get insurance to pay for massages). The regular massages taught me that my pain was from muscle tension. Turns out that ibuprofen immediatlely cures my headaches! And regular stretching/exercise and hydration avoids neck and headaches all together. I'm now convinced that chiropractors aren't for me -- I could have saved a lot of money if I had known earlier.
I wasn't planning on disclosing the name of his college but since you tossed it out there, he also graduated from Life. I didn't realize they were also a nutrition/exercise school... makes sense why everything gets tangled together instead of keeping chiropractic treatment separate from all the other stuff.
Like many on this thread have echoed, I have (through my own research over the past year or so) figured out that chiropractors seem to fall into 2 separate schools of thought: new age and old school. Old School chiros seem more interested in treating injuries (example: when I fucked up my back so bad I couldn't walk and no one could help me until I saw a chiropractor), whereas these New Age chiros are interested in selling an idea.... eat well and avoid all traditional western medicine and opt for alternative, holistic methods instead. Eat vegan and get 3 adjustments a week and you'll never get cancer, never have issues, never experience disease or pain. It's a crock.
It's also dangerous because it's a profitable crock and you're preying on people's fears to get them to sign up for treatments that they might not even need. I mean, my BIL once told me that they adjusted a 3 day old infant one time! Get the fuck outta here.
As a chiropractor, I would disagree with this. Chiropractic has traditionally taken a dogmatic approach, believing that the underlying issue of someone's problem is an "undisputed"/"non-verifiable" entity called the "vertebral subluxation." (This had a lot to do with the conflict that the AMA had with the chiropractors decades ago.) This is what you are referring to when you talk about the 'New Age' Chiros. This has been around since the beginning of Chiropractic in North America. I would submit to you that a high quality Chiropractor (or any other type of health care practitioner) is one that will take three things into account with every single patient they see: 1. What the patient brings (their need, their beliefs, their situation) 2. What the scientific body of evidence says about the condition at hand 3. The Chiropractor's own knowledge & expertise. All three must be taken into account.
Regarding treatment of infants, a couple of points: I would submit to you that treating an infant would look very different than the treatment you would receive - for very obvious reasons. From a scientific research perspective - infants are not part of the gold standard, double-blind research studies. For ethical reasons, it just doesn't happen. The bulk of research done with infants, are retrospective studies. Physiotherapists will work with the neck of an infant if he/she does not turn their head in one direction like the other. This care is done so that mother can have baby breastfeed from both breasts. Don't see how a chiropractor working on an infant to help their joints and nerves function better isn't any different. I can tell you that the mothers are happy that their infant can feed from both sides after the infants treatment - and then for some reason their child isn't as fussy and sleeps better. I'd submit to you that there are times where a "trial of therapy" is worth it when dealing with infants and children. Its when the interests of the patient are neglected - that is when we all need to demand better!
Chiropractic millionaires. Yeah, absolutely. The two reasons a chiropractor will not be a millionaire: 1. They take part in lifestyle inflation like others do. 2. They are exceptionally bad chiropractors. (A chiro making a million per year - I would not have myself or my family treated by someone that treated me like a herd animal. That smacks of a practitioner of having their own pocket book as greater interest than the care of their patients.)
Thanks for the info, it's nice to hear from someone "in the biz." Sounds like re: infant care, you're talking about a situation where the infant presents with an issue (not being able to turn the head side to side, which is impairing its ability to feed.) What about a situation where an infant has no issues, and the chiro is telling a new mother that if she does not start her infant on chiropractic care, they could grow up to have all sorts of health issues... so she believes that by doing this she is essentially ensuring a path to a healthy life for the child? Something about this rubs me the wrong way from an ethical perspective. Feels a little like fear mongering to make a dollar. Would love your thoughts, though.
Also, since you indicated you are a chiropractor, are you familiar with programs like the one I discussed my BIL taking part of? Extracurricular to the university and pumping them full of ideologies about how chiropractic is the save-all for every disease, and teaching them how to graduate and open a practice and become millionaires by selling their services. From what I've read, it sounds like this program isn't specific to his college, but is part of a national network of similar programs at other schools.
Lastly, an update for everyone else re: finances (since that's what started this whole thread.) Sis and BIL came to town yesterday and my sis had a conversation with my father about the guilt she has that he paid for her to get her Master's and she isn't using it. My father said he's not worried about that, but he is worried about the huge amount of debt they're getting themselves in and doesn't understand why they can't get jobs until the practice is over. She said they don't expect to make any real money until August (1 month after they open, which to me seems ambitious...) and that in the meantime, they are going to "pray that God will provide." What could go wrong?
Post by: ms on January 30, 2018, 08:32:44 AM
... and that in the meantime, they are going to "pray that God will provide." What could go wrong?
Ugh. Nothing makes me grind my teeth more than this phrase. Good luck to them.
Post by: Just Joe on January 30, 2018, 08:43:03 AM
I would imagine God probably has bigger fish to fry than two comfortably well off folks who just don't want to get jobs.
Post by: Beard N Bones on January 30, 2018, 10:39:50 AM
I'm on the same page as you. Fear mongering rubs me the wrong way as well - regardless of the age, infant or elderly. Preventative care, however, is worth while. That is why my family gets periodic dental and eye check ups, even though we have no associated teeth or eye symptoms. What kind of preventative/periodic Chiropractic care is reasonable? Once again, it depends on the individual! I have some patients that function, feel, and move best with treatment once every 3 weeks (they often refuse to exercise, eat healthy, have high levels of chronic stress, have poor relationships, and generally abuse themselves), others are good with preventive care once a year. Figuring out what a patient does best with is essential, as everyone is different. Most people don't take care of themselves and so preventative care doesn't come natural. I'd guess that is why fear mongering tactics are used.As a chiropractor, I would disagree with this. Chiropractic has traditionally taken a dogmatic approach, believing that the underlying issue of someone's problem is an "undisputed"/"non-verifiable" entity called the "vertebral subluxation." (This had a lot to do with the conflict that the AMA had with the chiropractors decades ago.) This is what you are referring to when you talk about the 'New Age' Chiros. This has been around since the beginning of Chiropractic in North America. I would submit to you that a high quality Chiropractor (or any other type of health care practitioner) is one that will take three things into account with every single patient they see: 1. What the patient brings (their need, their beliefs, their situation) 2. What the scientific body of evidence says about the condition at hand 3. The Chiropractor's own knowledge & expertise. All three must be taken into account.
Regarding treatment of infants, a couple of points: I would submit to you that treating an infant would look very different than the treatment you would receive - for very obvious reasons. From a scientific research perspective - infants are not part of the gold standard, double-blind research studies. For ethical reasons, it just doesn't happen. The bulk of research done with infants, are retrospective studies. Physiotherapists will work with the neck of an infant if he/she does not turn their head in one direction like the other. This care is done so that mother can have baby breastfeed from both breasts. Don't see how a chiropractor working on an infant to help their joints and nerves function better isn't any different. I can tell you that the mothers are happy that their infant can feed from both sides after the infants treatment - and then for some reason their child isn't as fussy and sleeps better. I'd submit to you that there are times where a "trial of therapy" is worth it when dealing with infants and children. Its when the interests of the patient are neglected - that is when we all need to demand better!
Chiropractic millionaires. Yeah, absolutely. The two reasons a chiropractor will not be a millionaire: 1. They take part in lifestyle inflation like others do. 2. They are exceptionally bad chiropractors. (A chiro making a million per year - I would not have myself or my family treated by someone that treated me like a herd animal. That smacks of a practitioner of having their own pocket book as greater interest than the care of their patients.)
Thanks for the info, it's nice to hear from someone "in the biz." Sounds like re: infant care, you're talking about a situation where the infant presents with an issue (not being able to turn the head side to side, which is impairing its ability to feed.) What about a situation where an infant has no issues, and the chiro is telling a new mother that if she does not start her infant on chiropractic care, they could grow up to have all sorts of health issues... so she believes that by doing this she is essentially ensuring a path to a healthy life for the child? Something about this rubs me the wrong way from an ethical perspective. Feels a little like fear mongering to make a dollar. Would love your thoughts, though.
Also, since you indicated you are a chiropractor, are you familiar with programs like the one I discussed my BIL taking part of? Extracurricular to the university and pumping them full of ideologies about how chiropractic is the save-all for every disease, and teaching them how to graduate and open a practice and become millionaires by selling their services. From what I've read, it sounds like this program isn't specific to his college, but is part of a national network of similar programs at other schools.Yes. They are called "Patient Management" or "Practice Management" courses/programs. Its essentially learning how to get sales. I'm not keen on the tactics used. I'd say that this found more in the US than in other parts of the world. In Canada (where I practice), these type of programs/systems aren't as common. I'd go so far as to say that our standards of care are higher here. (Even higher yet in Switzerland, as Chiropractors are seen as equals to specialists - think ortho surgeons or neurologists.)
I prefer to listen to what the patient wants/needs, treat appropriately (see earlier the 3 previous essentials needed in good care), and educate about health. My patient's needs are priority #1.
Lastly, an update for everyone else re: finances (since that's what started this whole thread.) Sis and BIL came to town yesterday and my sis had a conversation with my father about the guilt she has that he paid for her to get her Master's and she isn't using it. My father said he's not worried about that, but he is worried about the huge amount of debt they're getting themselves in and doesn't understand why they can't get jobs until the practice is over. She said they don't expect to make any real money until August (1 month after they open, which to me seems ambitious...) and that in the meantime, they are going to "pray that God will provide." What could go wrong?I love the optimism. But financially speaking, it sounds like they are in for some tough lessons. Namely, if you spend more than you make, you are in deep trouble. As you've so beautifully described, they are head-in-the-sand, spending like they've already made it. For most people, having this type of mentality doesn't turn out well for them in the end. I hope it is different for your sister and BIL and they find success - and I'd be happy if they would be able to escape the financial world-of-hurt they seem to be heading towards.
Question: WHY ARE THEIR PARENTS ENABLING THEIR BAD FINANCIAL CHOICES?!
Post by: frugalecon on January 30, 2018, 10:46:15 AM
... and that in the meantime, they are going to "pray that God will provide." What could go wrong?
Ugh. Nothing makes me grind my teeth more than this phrase. Good luck to them.
I might have been tempted to snarkily hypothesize that any deity that exists might think he provided via the opportunity to earn a living after finishing a degree program. Or maybe a unicorn will prance up, bearing bags of cash. Or the teller window at Bank of Dad will open for business.
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on January 30, 2018, 11:14:38 AM
... and that in the meantime, they are going to "pray that God will provide." What could go wrong?
Ugh. Nothing makes me grind my teeth more than this phrase. Good luck to them.
I might have been tempted to snarkily hypothesize that any deity that exists might think he provided via the opportunity to earn a living after finishing a degree program. Or maybe a unicorn will prance up, bearing bags of cash. Or the teller window at Bank of Dad will open for business.
I remember hearing a story about a person with that mentality, who relied on divine intervention instead of taking advantage of opportunities that may well have been provided by the same deity.
A man woke up to find out that the river had flooded and was washing away his house. He climbed to the roof to avoid drowning. Being a man of intense faith, he prayed to his deity for aid as the water rose higher and higher.
Along came a person clinging to a log. "Come with me," said the other survivor, "and we can kick toward the shore and escape."
"No," said the man, "My deity will save me."
"Suit yourself," said the swimmer, and continued moving toward the shore. The water rose higher, and soon the roof was covered and the man was in water up to his waist. Along came a neighbor in a boat who invited the man to jump in with the neighbor and family.
"No thanks," said the man, "My deity will save me." So the neighbors piloted the boat away in search of a safe place, rescuing people and animals as they went.
Finally the man was in water up to his neck and felt the house beneath him crumble. He swam and was able to keep his head above water. A military helicopter appeared, and a rope ladder spilled out of it. "Take hold of me," said the soldier who descended the ladder, "and the helicopter will take you to dry land." Again, the man of faith refused. So the helicopter team left.
"When will my deity rescue me?" The man of faith mused as he felt his strength begin to leave him. His head eventually slipped under the water, and he drowned.
Upon dying, the man of faith was pleased and gratified to find out that he'd chosen the right religion. His deity and glorious afterlife were awaiting him. "Yet," said his deity, "I notice that you are troubled by something. What is it?"
"Only this," said the man of faith. "All my life I believed in You and lived according to Your wishes as well as I could. But in my time of distress I called upon You for aid, and although I am in no way disappointed in Your kingdom or in meeting You in person, I am wondering why You allowed me to drown instead of rescuing me, particularly given that the atheists were wrong and You have been real this whole time."
"What are you talking about?" His deity answered. "I sent you a log, a boat, and a helicopter."
Post by: frugalfoothills on January 30, 2018, 12:10:31 PM
... and that in the meantime, they are going to "pray that God will provide." What could go wrong?
Ugh. Nothing makes me grind my teeth more than this phrase. Good luck to them.
I might have been tempted to snarkily hypothesize that any deity that exists might think he provided via the opportunity to earn a living after finishing a degree program. Or maybe a unicorn will prance up, bearing bags of cash. Or the teller window at Bank of Dad will open for business.
I remember hearing a story about a person with that mentality, who relied on divine intervention instead of taking advantage of opportunities that may well have been provided by the same deity.
A man woke up to find out that the river had flooded and was washing away his house. He climbed to the roof to avoid drowning. Being a man of intense faith, he prayed to his deity for aid as the water rose higher and higher.
Along came a person clinging to a log. "Come with me," said the other survivor, "and we can kick toward the shore and escape."
"No," said the man, "My deity will save me."
"Suit yourself," said the swimmer, and continued moving toward the shore. The water rose higher, and soon the roof was covered and the man was in water up to his waist. Along came a neighbor in a boat who invited the man to jump in with the neighbor and family.
"No thanks," said the man, "My deity will save me." So the neighbors piloted the boat away in search of a safe place, rescuing people and animals as they went.
Finally the man was in water up to his neck and felt the house beneath him crumble. He swam and was able to keep his head above water. A military helicopter appeared, and a rope ladder spilled out of it. "Take hold of me," said the soldier who descended the ladder, "and the helicopter will take you to dry land." Again, the man of faith refused. So the helicopter team left.
"When will my deity rescue me?" The man of faith mused as he felt his strength begin to leave him. His head eventually slipped under the water, and he drowned.
Upon dying, the man of faith was pleased and gratified to find out that he'd chosen the right religion. His deity and glorious afterlife were awaiting him. "Yet," said his deity, "I notice that you are troubled by something. What is it?"
"Only this," said the man of faith. "All my life I believed in You and lived according to Your wishes as well as I could. But in my time of distress I called upon You for aid, and although I am in no way disappointed in Your kingdom or in meeting You in person, I am wondering why You allowed me to drown instead of rescuing me, particularly given that the atheists were wrong and You have been real this whole time."
"What are you talking about?" His deity answered. "I sent you a log, a boat, and a helicopter."
My father used this exact story in his response to her, how funny. Well, this story with a couple variations... either way, message was the same. Didn't seem to take root.
Just so everyone is aware: my parents haven't contributed a dime to this endeavor. They paid for their wedding last summer and that's the last money they will be spending on these two. It's HIS parents who are currently bankrolling them... the business loan is a personal loan from his father. Apparently his father is the one that encouraged them to borrow an extra $30-$40k on top of what they felt they needed to open the office to account for "personal expenses," so obviously the questionable decision-making starts from the top down here. My family, on the other hand, is super confused and concerned about this.
Also from the FIL (lender of the cash): he advised my BIL that "any extra you have left over in the loan can be put toward your student loan payments!" I fail to see how using borrowed money from FIL to pay for borrowed money to the government is not still BORROWING MONEY. Doesn't matter whether you owe dad or Uncle Sam, you still owe SOMEONE...
Post by: MgoSam on January 30, 2018, 01:30:22 PM
Also from the FIL (lender of the cash): he advised my BIL that "any extra you have left over in the loan can be put toward your student loan payments!" I fail to see how using borrowed money from FIL to pay for borrowed money to the government is not still BORROWING MONEY. Doesn't matter whether you owe dad or Uncle Sam, you still owe SOMEONE...
I've found that people like this are the type that are so used to kicking the can down the road.
A few years ago I spent Thanksgiving with one of my best friend's family, they live in a rural part of the state that is a few hours drive and I loved their house. A year later I was invited back and by this point the parents had decided that I was more or less 'family,' because they were much more free with their words. I heard from the mother about how they still owed a ton on their houses (they are both in their 60s and owned the home for 30+ years) because they keep re-financing to pay for new toys and constant renovations.
Post by: Apple_Tango on January 30, 2018, 01:48:43 PM
Post by: eliza on February 01, 2018, 03:28:24 PM
My father used this exact story in his response to her, how funny. Well, this story with a couple variations... either way, message was the same. Didn't seem to take root.
Just so everyone is aware: my parents haven't contributed a dime to this endeavor. They paid for their wedding last summer and that's the last money they will be spending on these two. It's HIS parents who are currently bankrolling them... the business loan is a personal loan from his father. Apparently his father is the one that encouraged them to borrow an extra $30-$40k on top of what they felt they needed to open the office to account for "personal expenses," so obviously the questionable decision-making starts from the top down here. My family, on the other hand, is super confused and concerned about this.
Also from the FIL (lender of the cash): he advised my BIL that "any extra you have left over in the loan can be put toward your student loan payments!" I fail to see how using borrowed money from FIL to pay for borrowed money to the government is not still BORROWING MONEY. Doesn't matter whether you owe dad or Uncle Sam, you still owe SOMEONE...
Is it possible that his parents are actually just giving them the money, not lending it to them with the expectation that it be repaid? Because otherwise that doesn't make any sense. Although, nothing about this is particularly logical, so who knows.
As someone who also has a super-spendypass sibling with a super-spendypass partner, I sympathize. Don't make the mistake of getting roped in financially --- my sister and BIL are at least on a path to make lots of money ---- they'll never have any money because they spend every dollar they get as soon as they get it, but at least they'll support themselves.
I made the mistake of lending them $$$$ to help them purchase a house. I'm getting paid back on time and with interest according to our loan agreement, but it still does alter the relationship a bit. Right after they closed on their new place, my sister mentioned that they ended up not needing to bring as much to the closing as they thought, so they were going to do a sizeable pay down on their loan balance to me. Two days later, my BIL came home with a brand-new high-end Harley and no further talk of a pay down was mentioned. I can't really judge because they are paying as agreed and I decided when I lent them the money that I was willing to lose it if they defaulted (although it would severely harm our relationship). But still, I'm being even more judge-y than I normally would be of their ridiculous choices.
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on February 01, 2018, 03:51:08 PM
My father used this exact story in his response to her, how funny. Well, this story with a couple variations... either way, message was the same. Didn't seem to take root.
Just so everyone is aware: my parents haven't contributed a dime to this endeavor. They paid for their wedding last summer and that's the last money they will be spending on these two. It's HIS parents who are currently bankrolling them... the business loan is a personal loan from his father. Apparently his father is the one that encouraged them to borrow an extra $30-$40k on top of what they felt they needed to open the office to account for "personal expenses," so obviously the questionable decision-making starts from the top down here. My family, on the other hand, is super confused and concerned about this.
Also from the FIL (lender of the cash): he advised my BIL that "any extra you have left over in the loan can be put toward your student loan payments!" I fail to see how using borrowed money from FIL to pay for borrowed money to the government is not still BORROWING MONEY. Doesn't matter whether you owe dad or Uncle Sam, you still owe SOMEONE...
Is it possible that his parents are actually just giving them the money, not lending it to them with the expectation that it be repaid? Because otherwise that doesn't make any sense. Although, nothing about this is particularly logical, so who knows.
As someone who also has a super-spendypass sibling with a super-spendypass partner, I sympathize. Don't make the mistake of getting roped in financially --- my sister and BIL are at least on a path to make lots of money ---- they'll never have any money because they spend every dollar they get as soon as they get it, but at least they'll support themselves.
I made the mistake of lending them $$$$ to help them purchase a house. I'm getting paid back on time and with interest according to our loan agreement, but it still does alter the relationship a bit. Right after they closed on their new place, my sister mentioned that they ended up not needing to bring as much to the closing as they thought, so they were going to do a sizeable pay down on their loan balance to me. Two days later, my BIL came home with a brand-new high-end Harley and no further talk of a pay down was mentioned. I can't really judge because they are paying as agreed and I decided when I lent them the money that I was willing to lose it if they defaulted (although it would severely harm our relationship). But still, I'm being even more judge-y than I normally would be of their ridiculous choices.
It's because you've got a dog in the fight, so to speak. You've put money into their household, so now you have a personal interest in whether they stay afloat. That makes their spending your business, although it wasn't before. So naturally you will be more alert to irresponsible spending from them than you were before.
Part of your response is due to their failure to follow through on the early pay-down they were talking about. Being promised something and not getting it is irksome. If they'd never mentioned a pay-down to begin with I doubt the urge to judge them for getting a Harley would have crossed your mind. But as matters stand it's a legitimate (but minor) gripe.
Post by: frugalfoothills on February 04, 2018, 12:24:28 PM
Post by: Apple_Tango on February 04, 2018, 05:50:45 PM
Post by: frugalfoothills on February 05, 2018, 03:05:36 PM
Mind you, I received the info about the 1910 chest via a text message from 10am today. Monday at 10am, a time most normal people are at work. My sister texts me from her sofa where she's enjoying a "bulletproof coffee" (organic coffee, MCT oil, grass fed butter...) and an organic acai bowl, all ingredients purchased from Whole Foods using business-loan-money, of course. Text said "Enjoying my morning and admiring my new chest!" Apparently my BIL had just gotten back from the gym and was laying down to take a well-deserved 2 hour nap.
Am I living in the Twilight Zone?
Post by: KodeBlue on February 05, 2018, 03:12:06 PM
Monday at 10am, a time most normal people are at work. My sister texts me from her sofa where she's enjoying a "bulletproof coffee" (organic coffee, MCT oil, grass fed butter...) and an organic acai bowl, all ingredients purchased from Whole Foods using business-loan-money, of course. Text said "Enjoying my morning and admiring my new chest!" Apparently my BIL had just gotten back from the gym and was laying down to take a well-deserved 2 hour nap.Wow. Apparently I'm doing it all wrong.
Am I living in the Twilight Zone?
Post by: jinga nation on February 05, 2018, 03:18:09 PM
"Enjoying my morning and admiring my new chest!"
Spoiler: show
Post by: Beard N Bones on February 05, 2018, 03:54:26 PM
Great news! My sis and BIL have been doing a little shopping for their (rented-with-business-loan-money) house! They scored a cedar trunk from 1910 that they feel will really make their entryway more inviting. It was only $200! Sister also took a trip to Marshall's this weekend for some throw pillows, blankets, and bedding for their SECOND guest bed (of which my sister's FIL paid for a brand new mattress.) Bedding and such was at least $100. But hey, who's counting?
Mind you, I received the info about the 1910 chest via a text message from 10am today. Monday at 10am, a time most normal people are at work. My sister texts me from her sofa where she's enjoying a "bulletproof coffee" (organic coffee, MCT oil, grass fed butter...) and an organic acai bowl, all ingredients purchased from Whole Foods using business-loan-money, of course. Text said "Enjoying my morning and admiring my new chest!" Apparently my BIL had just gotten back from the gym and was laying down to take a well-deserved 2 hour nap.
Am I living in the Twilight Zone?
Ohhh boy. Sounds like they are in for a huge dose of real-life in the next few years.
Is the Twilight Zone like watching a train-wreck happen in slow motion?
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on February 05, 2018, 07:22:58 PM
Great news! My sis and BIL have been doing a little shopping for their (rented-with-business-loan-money) house! They scored a cedar trunk from 1910 that they feel will really make their entryway more inviting. It was only $200! Sister also took a trip to Marshall's this weekend for some throw pillows, blankets, and bedding for their SECOND guest bed (of which my sister's FIL paid for a brand new mattress.) Bedding and such was at least $100. But hey, who's counting?
Mind you, I received the info about the 1910 chest via a text message from 10am today. Monday at 10am, a time most normal people are at work. My sister texts me from her sofa where she's enjoying a "bulletproof coffee" (organic coffee, MCT oil, grass fed butter...) and an organic acai bowl, all ingredients purchased from Whole Foods using business-loan-money, of course. Text said "Enjoying my morning and admiring my new chest!" Apparently my BIL had just gotten back from the gym and was laying down to take a well-deserved 2 hour nap.
Am I living in the Twilight Zone?
All I can think about is "Homer, I'm not the one that butters your coffee."
What in the world?
Post by: Step37 on February 05, 2018, 11:10:46 PM
Post by: Roe on February 06, 2018, 02:30:25 AM
Great news! My sis and BIL have been doing a little shopping for their (rented-with-business-loan-money) house! They scored a cedar trunk from 1910 that they feel will really make their entryway more inviting. It was only $200! Sister also took a trip to Marshall's this weekend for some throw pillows, blankets, and bedding for their SECOND guest bed (of which my sister's FIL paid for a brand new mattress.) Bedding and such was at least $100. But hey, who's counting?
Mind you, I received the info about the 1910 chest via a text message from 10am today. Monday at 10am, a time most normal people are at work. My sister texts me from her sofa where she's enjoying a "bulletproof coffee" (organic coffee, MCT oil, grass fed butter...) and an organic acai bowl, all ingredients purchased from Whole Foods using business-loan-money, of course. Text said "Enjoying my morning and admiring my new chest!" Apparently my BIL had just gotten back from the gym and was laying down to take a well-deserved 2 hour nap.
Am I living in the Twilight Zone?
That sounds more like an instagram post than a text message. Or is this how people communicate now?
Post by: Sibley on February 06, 2018, 10:42:28 AM
Holy crap. I can see why you’re concerned. I have a relative who’s a chiropractor (and an anti-Vaccer - the person who made the Venn diagram comment really made me laugh), so this is particularly interesting. The relative appears to do quite well (his wife is also a CP), but I’d be pretty shocked if they were making a million a year. It’s a busy, established clinic, but they have fairly limited hours. I get the sense that they are smart about money and work/life balance. I just hope none of their children fall ill from a preventable disease... :-/
Whereas, and I'm sorry, but I hope those children DO fall ill from a preventable disease. Because that's probably the only way the idiot anti-vaxxers are going to get some sense knocked into them. A round of mild to moderate measles causing 2 months of quarantine sounds like a perfect punishment for putting others at risk because you don't want to take advantage of one of the most important and impactful public health advances in history (hygiene did more, but vaccines are way up there).
Post by: Beard N Bones on February 06, 2018, 11:57:40 AM
Holy crap. I can see why you’re concerned. I have a relative who’s a chiropractor (and an anti-Vaccer - the person who made the Venn diagram comment really made me laugh), so this is particularly interesting. The relative appears to do quite well (his wife is also a CP), but I’d be pretty shocked if they were making a million a year. It’s a busy, established clinic, but they have fairly limited hours. I get the sense that they are smart about money and work/life balance. I just hope none of their children fall ill from a preventable disease... :-/
Whereas, and I'm sorry, but I hope those children DO fall ill from a preventable disease. Because that's probably the only way the idiot anti-vaxxers are going to get some sense knocked into them. A round of mild to moderate measles causing 2 months of quarantine sounds like a perfect punishment for putting others at risk because you don't want to take advantage of one of the most important and impactful public health advances in history (hygiene did more, but vaccines are way up there).
I find this comment to be extremely inappropriate, rude and uncalled for. Why are you wishing harm on anyone?!
It would be the same if someone wished that you had a heart attack, stroke, a mental issue (like alzheimers, depression, anxiety, or cancer) because you never got 30 minutes of moderate/vigorous exercise/day, or ate 5 servings of fruits and vegetables/day. (As everyone knows that exercise and a healthy diet prevents many chronic diseases. And parents who are inactive, sedentary and don't eat healthy, are more likely to have kids that are also inactive, sedentary and eat poorly.) Do you exercise daily and always eat healthy Sibley?
Your approach to this topic helps no-one Sibley.
[FWIW - My family and I have all been vaccinated.]
Post by: BrightFIRE on February 06, 2018, 12:32:45 PM
Whereas, and I'm sorry, but I hope those children DO fall ill from a preventable disease. Because that's probably the only way the idiot anti-vaxxers are going to get some sense knocked into them. A round of mild to moderate measles causing 2 months of quarantine sounds like a perfect punishment for putting others at risk because you don't want to take advantage of one of the most important and impactful public health advances in history (hygiene did more, but vaccines are way up there).
I find this comment to be extremely inappropriate, rude and uncalled for. Why are you wishing harm on anyone?!
It would be the same if someone wished that you had a heart attack, stroke, a mental issue (like alzheimers, depression, anxiety, or cancer) because you never got 30 minutes of moderate/vigorous exercise/day, or ate 5 servings of fruits and vegetables/day. (As everyone knows that exercise and a healthy diet prevents many chronic diseases. And parents who are inactive, sedentary and don't eat healthy, are more likely to have kids that are also inactive, sedentary and eat poorly.) Do you exercise daily and always eat healthy Sibley?
Your approach to this topic helps no-one Sibley.
[FWIW - My family and I have all been vaccinated.]
Unless Sibley has amazing powers, her "approach" will not affect anyone, unlike anti-vaxxers, whose approach literally puts the lives of others at risk. This is why your indignant comparison is totally wrong: Sibley not excercising and eating right would only affect Sibley. The fall in vaccination rates has affected MILLIONS worldwide.
I can understand his/her frustration - you certainly don't want anyone dead, but if the children fell ill, you'd hope their parents would come to their senses. Unfortunately, it would probably cause them to double down, because humans are great at lying to themselves.
Post by: Davnasty on February 06, 2018, 01:25:35 PM
Great news! My sis and BIL have been doing a little shopping for their (rented-with-business-loan-money) house! They scored a cedar trunk from 1910 that they feel will really make their entryway more inviting. It was only $200! Sister also took a trip to Marshall's this weekend for some throw pillows, blankets, and bedding for their SECOND guest bed (of which my sister's FIL paid for a brand new mattress.) Bedding and such was at least $100. But hey, who's counting?
Mind you, I received the info about the 1910 chest via a text message from 10am today. Monday at 10am, a time most normal people are at work. My sister texts me from her sofa where she's enjoying a "bulletproof coffee" (organic coffee, MCT oil, grass fed butter...) and an organic acai bowl, all ingredients purchased from Whole Foods using business-loan-money, of course. Text said "Enjoying my morning and admiring my new chest!" Apparently my BIL had just gotten back from the gym and was laying down to take a well-deserved 2 hour nap.
Am I living in the Twilight Zone?
Based on this description of their lives I'm assuming these people must be FIRE'd? /s
Post by: Beard N Bones on February 06, 2018, 01:49:25 PM
Whereas, and I'm sorry, but I hope those children DO fall ill from a preventable disease. Because that's probably the only way the idiot anti-vaxxers are going to get some sense knocked into them. A round of mild to moderate measles causing 2 months of quarantine sounds like a perfect punishment for putting others at risk because you don't want to take advantage of one of the most important and impactful public health advances in history (hygiene did more, but vaccines are way up there).
I find this comment to be extremely inappropriate, rude and uncalled for. Why are you wishing harm on anyone?!
It would be the same if someone wished that you had a heart attack, stroke, a mental issue (like alzheimers, depression, anxiety, or cancer) because you never got 30 minutes of moderate/vigorous exercise/day, or ate 5 servings of fruits and vegetables/day. (As everyone knows that exercise and a healthy diet prevents many chronic diseases. And parents who are inactive, sedentary and don't eat healthy, are more likely to have kids that are also inactive, sedentary and eat poorly.) Do you exercise daily and always eat healthy Sibley?
Your approach to this topic helps no-one Sibley.
[FWIW - My family and I have all been vaccinated.]
Unless Sibley has amazing powers, her "approach" will not affect anyone, unlike anti-vaxxers, whose approach literally puts the lives of others at risk. This is why your indignant comparison is totally wrong: Sibley not excercising and eating right would only affect Sibley. The fall in vaccination rates has affected MILLIONS worldwide.
I can understand his/her frustration - you certainly don't want anyone dead, but if the children fell ill, you'd hope their parents would come to their senses. Unfortunately, it would probably cause them to double down, because humans are great at lying to themselves.
(I'm not arguing the idea that everyone should be vaccinated. That is a huge topic that many people have very emotional responses to, and opinions of. But I'll repeat it again for you BrightFIRE because apparently you didn't understand what I said; or you as well, wish harm on anti-vaxxers...)
Wishing harm on someone else because they increase the relative risk of harm done to others is not the way to make positive change.
I used an example of someone's bad health affecting the health of their children. I can show evidence that would support this claim. But you don't like that example. Is it too personal an example? Let me use another example...
Do you wish a trauma induced paraplegia on someone who drinks and then drives because they drastically increase the risk of other motorists getting physically harmed? I think only a sick individual would think like that. Why do pro-vaxxers think it is okay to think like this about anti-vaxxers? Don't you think there is a better way (a more mature, adult-like way) of making positive change?
Post by: SwordGuy on February 06, 2018, 02:35:03 PM
Do you wish a trauma induced paraplegia on someone who drinks and then drives because they drastically increase the risk of other motorists getting physically harmed? I think only a sick individual would think like that. Why do pro-vaxxers think it is okay to think like this about anti-vaxxers? Don't you think there is a better way (a more mature, adult-like way) of making positive change?
That would be, um, facts and logic, which anti-vaxxers appear to be impervious to.
As for his example, he wished for something seriously annoying, not something permanently crippling. Let's not mix apples and oranges in our counter examples.
A more apt counter-example would be wishing a drunk driver would crash their vehicle on their own property into their own fence and scare some sense into themselves in the process, hurting no one else and only giving them some painful bruises and contusions.
Post by: Sibley on February 06, 2018, 03:37:22 PM
Whereas, and I'm sorry, but I hope those children DO fall ill from a preventable disease. Because that's probably the only way the idiot anti-vaxxers are going to get some sense knocked into them. A round of mild to moderate measles causing 2 months of quarantine sounds like a perfect punishment for putting others at risk because you don't want to take advantage of one of the most important and impactful public health advances in history (hygiene did more, but vaccines are way up there).
I find this comment to be extremely inappropriate, rude and uncalled for. Why are you wishing harm on anyone?!
It would be the same if someone wished that you had a heart attack, stroke, a mental issue (like alzheimers, depression, anxiety, or cancer) because you never got 30 minutes of moderate/vigorous exercise/day, or ate 5 servings of fruits and vegetables/day. (As everyone knows that exercise and a healthy diet prevents many chronic diseases. And parents who are inactive, sedentary and don't eat healthy, are more likely to have kids that are also inactive, sedentary and eat poorly.) Do you exercise daily and always eat healthy Sibley?
Your approach to this topic helps no-one Sibley.
[FWIW - My family and I have all been vaccinated.]
Unless Sibley has amazing powers, her "approach" will not affect anyone, unlike anti-vaxxers, whose approach literally puts the lives of others at risk. This is why your indignant comparison is totally wrong: Sibley not excercising and eating right would only affect Sibley. The fall in vaccination rates has affected MILLIONS worldwide.
I can understand his/her frustration - you certainly don't want anyone dead, but if the children fell ill, you'd hope their parents would come to their senses. Unfortunately, it would probably cause them to double down, because humans are great at lying to themselves.
@Beard N Bones , I have a habit of thinking at a population level. You, clearly, think at an individual level. This isn't wrong, but it is very different and tends to result in exactly the reaction you had when you run into someone who thinks at a population level - disgust and fear. Because if I don't care about a couple of children, then clearly I don't care about you. Which is terrifying. It's ok, it's normal, but you need to understand.
At a population level, low vaccination rates are disastrous, and individuals don't matter - it's aggregate only. At an individual level, each individual matters. Even a handful of people getting sick is huge in that mind set. If you're looking at a whole population, who cares if a few sickly individuals die? It may even be good for the population as a whole because whatever's causing them to be sickly and weak is not being passed down to future generations. In the long view, at a population level, we are FAR better off if a small number of people get sick and remind the rest of the group WHY we have vaccines. The alternative is eventually a pandemic that kills millions and sickens hundreds of millions.
You can apply this population-level thinking to a lot of situations. It boils down to the classic ethical dilemma - do you flip the switch to move the train to kill the baby but spare the larger number of people on the other track? I fall onto the side of saving the larger number of people than the 1. Doesn't mean I won't mourn the 1, but in the abstract, I view 1 death to be a lessor tragedy than 100 deaths.
There have been cases where anti-vaxxers DID change their minds because their children got sick, and they've gone on to vaccinate as recommended. As a population, we've forgotten the great epidemics and pandemics of the past (at least in the US). I do not remember when polio was sweeping through the country, killing and paralyzing. I don't remember measles, or mumps, or whooping cough. I'm not old enough. Hardly anyone today is. The problem is that because we don't have that daily reminder, we also can forget why it matters and other, lessor concerns will dictate the decision. In other places that still have these diseases, mothers are desperate to get their children vaccinated. Because they know the cost if they don't - death, disability, deformity.
So yes, it would be better for the population if a handful of children get the measles to remind everyone else of the danger. If I pull it down to an individual level, I don't want the child(ren) to get sick. (I'd be ok with the mother getting sick though to punish her for her stupidity, but that's different, she's responsible.)
And no, I don't have amazing powers. Wish I did, cause that would be cool. :)
Post by: Zamboni on February 06, 2018, 04:00:01 PM
Someone I know wanted to pay thousands of dollars to get their child "brain balance" therapy from a Chiropractor. Of course, she is anti-vax. So maybe there are enough stupid people for your family members to actually become millionaires? Certainly election results support this theory.
I will be sorry when another too-young-to-be-fully vaccinated baby gets whooping cough and dies thanks to the anti-vax dumbshits spreading preventable lethal diseases (we just got a letter that a teen at my kid's gym has whooping cough . . . who gets that anymore!?) If I had recently taken my infant to a game there, you better believe I would go apeshit on those parents. But it wouldn't matter, because I really think the anti-vax crowd is just too stupid to bother with at this point.
Post by: Beard N Bones on February 07, 2018, 08:22:27 AM
That is an incorrect assumption.Whereas, and I'm sorry, but I hope those children DO fall ill from a preventable disease. Because that's probably the only way the idiot anti-vaxxers are going to get some sense knocked into them. A round of mild to moderate measles causing 2 months of quarantine sounds like a perfect punishment for putting others at risk because you don't want to take advantage of one of the most important and impactful public health advances in history (hygiene did more, but vaccines are way up there).
I find this comment to be extremely inappropriate, rude and uncalled for. Why are you wishing harm on anyone?!
It would be the same if someone wished that you had a heart attack, stroke, a mental issue (like alzheimers, depression, anxiety, or cancer) because you never got 30 minutes of moderate/vigorous exercise/day, or ate 5 servings of fruits and vegetables/day. (As everyone knows that exercise and a healthy diet prevents many chronic diseases. And parents who are inactive, sedentary and don't eat healthy, are more likely to have kids that are also inactive, sedentary and eat poorly.) Do you exercise daily and always eat healthy Sibley?
Your approach to this topic helps no-one Sibley.
[FWIW - My family and I have all been vaccinated.]
Unless Sibley has amazing powers, her "approach" will not affect anyone, unlike anti-vaxxers, whose approach literally puts the lives of others at risk. This is why your indignant comparison is totally wrong: Sibley not excercising and eating right would only affect Sibley. The fall in vaccination rates has affected MILLIONS worldwide.
I can understand his/her frustration - you certainly don't want anyone dead, but if the children fell ill, you'd hope their parents would come to their senses. Unfortunately, it would probably cause them to double down, because humans are great at lying to themselves.
@Beard N Bones , I have a habit of thinking at a population level. You, clearly, think at an individual level.
Once again, please note that myself, my wife, and all 3 of my kids have been vaccinated.
I'm not going to delve into the benefits of vaccination - as you are completely right, they have been shown to be very effective in preventing many infectious diseases.
But it seems you've missed my point...
Quote
This isn't wrong, but it is very different and tends to result in exactly the reaction you had when you run into someone who thinks at a population level - disgust and fear. Because if I don't care about a couple of children, then clearly I don't care about you. Which is terrifying. It's ok, it's normal, but you need to understand.My point is simple. Wishing harm on anyone isn't necessary - whether it is one or many affected - even when you are obviously right. You approach this situation is like my 4 year old son. When his siblings wrong him, he will react in kind. When he gets hit, when he gets butthurt b/c of what his sister said, when he refuses to vegetables put in front of him because his taste buds react badly to them, when he is upset because it is his bedtime and he is tired - he will want to hit back, strike back, whine, shout and pout. My son tells me the same thing as you have - I can only react this way or that way in this situation. What you fail to recognize, is that there is an ADULT and GROWN-UP way to dealing with conflict. Striking back physically, or with words, or with a poor attitude, doesn't help the situation at all.
At a population level, low vaccination rates are disastrous, and individuals don't matter - it's aggregate only. At an individual level, each individual matters. Even a handful of people getting sick is huge in that mind set. If you're looking at a whole population, who cares if a few sickly individuals die? It may even be good for the population as a whole because whatever's causing them to be sickly and weak is not being passed down to future generations. In the long view, at a population level, we are FAR better off if a small number of people get sick and remind the rest of the group WHY we have vaccines. The alternative is eventually a pandemic that kills millions and sickens hundreds of millions.
You can apply this population-level thinking to a lot of situations. It boils down to the classic ethical dilemma - do you flip the switch to move the train to kill the baby but spare the larger number of people on the other track? I fall onto the side of saving the larger number of people than the 1. Doesn't mean I won't mourn the 1, but in the abstract, I view 1 death to be a lessor tragedy than 100 deaths.
There have been cases where anti-vaxxers DID change their minds because their children got sick, and they've gone on to vaccinate as recommended. As a population, we've forgotten the great epidemics and pandemics of the past (at least in the US). I do not remember when polio was sweeping through the country, killing and paralyzing. I don't remember measles, or mumps, or whooping cough. I'm not old enough. Hardly anyone today is. The problem is that because we don't have that daily reminder, we also can forget why it matters and other, lessor concerns will dictate the decision. In other places that still have these diseases, mothers are desperate to get their children vaccinated. Because they know the cost if they don't - death, disability, deformity.
So yes, it would be better for the population if a handful of children get the measles to remind everyone else of the danger. If I pull it down to an individual level, I don't want the child(ren) to get sick. (I'd be ok with the mother getting sick though to punish her for her stupidity, but that's different, she's responsible.)
And no, I don't have amazing powers. Wish I did, cause that would be cool. :)
How many people have you helped see the light and vaccinate themselves and their kids using the "I-hope-you-get-punished" approach? Yeah, that's what I thought. People don't respond well to that.
Grow up Sibley. I get the impression you are 32 going on 5.
Post by: Davnasty on February 07, 2018, 09:49:31 AM
My point is simple. Wishing harm on anyone isn't necessary - whether it is one or many affected - even when you are obviously right. You approach this situation is like my 4 year old son. When his siblings wrong him, he will react in kind. When he gets hit, when he gets butthurt b/c of what his sister said, when he refuses to vegetables put in front of him because his taste buds react badly to them, when he is upset because it is his bedtime and he is tired - he will want to hit back, strike back, whine, shout and pout. My son tells me the same thing as you have - I can only react this way or that way in this situation. What you fail to recognize, is that there is an ADULT and GROWN-UP way to dealing with conflict. Striking back physically, or with words, or with a poor attitude, doesn't help the situation at all.I don't think the idea is to convince anyone by saying "I hope your kid gets sick". The convincing part for anti-vaxxer parents would be the actual illness. And I agree, if in a theoretical situation where one kid getting sick encourages their parents to have them vaccinated for other more serious diseases or convinces other anti-vaxxer parents to change their ways, it would be worth it. If one illness ultimately prevents another more serious illness or multiple future illnesses I see that as a positive outcome. In fact I think it's safe to say the lack of incidence of these preventable disease is exactly why some parents have decided not to take them seriously. The occasional sick kid may be what it takes to push vaccination rates towards 100%. If PSA's could get the same result then of course that would be preferable.
How many people have you helped see the light and vaccinate themselves and their kids using the "I-hope-you-get-punished" approach? Yeah, that's what I thought. People don't respond well to that.
Grow up Sibley. I get the impression you are 32 going on 5.
I never saw Sibley's comment as being hateful or hoping for some sort of revenge on stupid people.
So yes, it would be better for the population if a handful of children get the measles to remind everyone else of the danger. If I pull it down to an individual level, I don't want the child(ren) to get sick. (I'd be ok with the mother getting sick though to punish her for her stupidity, but that's different, she's responsible.)
Well, not the first comment at least...
Post by: RidetheRain on February 07, 2018, 11:59:59 AM
For example, here is my vaccine fear that I hope I get over by the time I have children:
I was born prior to the introduction of the chickenpox vaccine and consider that to be a "normal" childhood illness that everyone goes through. I had it and my brothers had it and my friends had it. It was uncomfortable but not life-threatening as a child. My uncle, however, got it older while he was an adult. This is much more dangerous and he was in the hospital for weeks. My ingrained life lesson? Everyone should get chicken pox as a child so that they are safe from it as adults.
Now I see plenty of children and even adults that have never had chickenpox and I worry that the vaccine will "wear off" and expose them as adults. It's irrational and I have zero proof that would happen, but I think about it every time someone mentions the chickenpox vaccine. When I have children and have the question put to me I am thankful that I have a vocal pharmacist as a sister in law to beat me over the head with medical books until I listen to reason. I'm not sure I could pull myself from the fear on my own.
Post by: Prairie Stash on February 07, 2018, 12:08:14 PM
Are they combining Chiropractic care with Fad diets? Please tell me they have a shop at their new store selling crystals too.
Post by: Sibley on February 07, 2018, 03:18:18 PM
My point is simple. Wishing harm on anyone isn't necessary - whether it is one or many affected - even when you are obviously right. You approach this situation is like my 4 year old son. When his siblings wrong him, he will react in kind. When he gets hit, when he gets butthurt b/c of what his sister said, when he refuses to vegetables put in front of him because his taste buds react badly to them, when he is upset because it is his bedtime and he is tired - he will want to hit back, strike back, whine, shout and pout. My son tells me the same thing as you have - I can only react this way or that way in this situation. What you fail to recognize, is that there is an ADULT and GROWN-UP way to dealing with conflict. Striking back physically, or with words, or with a poor attitude, doesn't help the situation at all.I don't think the idea is to convince anyone by saying "I hope your kid gets sick". The convincing part for anti-vaxxer parents would be the actual illness. And I agree, if in a theoretical situation where one kid getting sick encourages their parents to have them vaccinated for other more serious diseases or convinces other anti-vaxxer parents to change their ways, it would be worth it. If one illness ultimately prevents another more serious illness or multiple future illnesses I see that as a positive outcome. In fact I think it's safe to say the lack of incidence of these preventable disease is exactly why some parents have decided not to take them seriously. The occasional sick kid may be what it takes to push vaccination rates towards 100%. If PSA's could get the same result then of course that would be preferable.
How many people have you helped see the light and vaccinate themselves and their kids using the "I-hope-you-get-punished" approach? Yeah, that's what I thought. People don't respond well to that.
Grow up Sibley. I get the impression you are 32 going on 5.
I never saw Sibley's comment as being hateful or hoping for some sort of revenge on stupid people.So yes, it would be better for the population if a handful of children get the measles to remind everyone else of the danger. If I pull it down to an individual level, I don't want the child(ren) to get sick. (I'd be ok with the mother getting sick though to punish her for her stupidity, but that's different, she's responsible.)
Well, not the first comment at least...
I never claimed to be perfect. When there's one individual making decisions that are a detriment to someone who is innocent, then yes, I'm ok with them getting punished in some way. It's the same concept as the kid who's a bully on the playground finding out no one wants to play with them - there are consequences to actions. You may not like those consequences, but they're logical and predictable. Getting a preventable illness when you don't vaccinate is one of those predicable consequences. I would prefer that those consequences hit the person most responsible rather than innocents around them. Unfortunately, the world doesn't always work that way. It's not really "nice" to say it though, and that's why Beard doesn't like me.
Post by: Sibley on February 07, 2018, 03:43:39 PM
I don't know if reminding people of the danger would really work. Some of these vaccines are relatively recent and there are plenty of people who remember what it was like. They just view the vaccine as worse. Imagined danger is terrifying when you don't know it's imaginary.
For example, here is my vaccine fear that I hope I get over by the time I have children:
I was born prior to the introduction of the chickenpox vaccine and consider that to be a "normal" childhood illness that everyone goes through. I had it and my brothers had it and my friends had it. It was uncomfortable but not life-threatening as a child. My uncle, however, got it older while he was an adult. This is much more dangerous and he was in the hospital for weeks. My ingrained life lesson? Everyone should get chicken pox as a child so that they are safe from it as adults.
Now I see plenty of children and even adults that have never had chickenpox and I worry that the vaccine will "wear off" and expose them as adults. It's irrational and I have zero proof that would happen, but I think about it every time someone mentions the chickenpox vaccine. When I have children and have the question put to me I am thankful that I have a vocal pharmacist as a sister in law to beat me over the head with medical books until I listen to reason. I'm not sure I could pull myself from the fear on my own.
I think the lines get blurred with some of the more recent vaccines. The really "important" vaccines, in terms of mortality and overall societal impact, were developed first. Measles, smallpox, polio, diphtheria, etc - those are the ones that we REALLY don't want coming back. Chicken pox, shingles - yes they're unpleasant, yes they can be dangerous, but when compared to some of the others, not really. The odds of dying from chicken pox vs. measles are quite a bit different in aggregate.
The problem is that people remember chicken pox. And they use that memory of chicken pox as a proxy for all the rest. "Oh, chicken pox isn't a big deal, it's not dangerous, I don't need to get the kids vaccinated" and then they apply that attitude to other vaccines. They use religion, or "clean living" or autism, or whatever as the cover, the excuse. But they don't get vaccinated. They don't remember measles, or smallpox, or tetanus, etc. If they actually SAW some of those other diseases, or developed a new "cultural memory" all of a sudden the gut level instinct changes. One of the reasons vaccinations took off was fear - fear that their kids would get sick and die, because it happened. It wasn't an abstract, you KNEW someone who got measles and died, or went blind, or whatever. You knew friends and neighbors and heard about their families, etc as well. There was an ingrained cultural memory of what these diseases could do, and it terrified people, deep down where they may not even realize it was there. People were primed to jump for something that was going to help keep their kids alive. Obviously, the introduction of vaccines wasn't without bumps and setbacks, but once they were in place, shown to work and be generally safe, that cultural memory helped a lot.
And sorry to give you nightmares, but any immunity can wear off. That's why adults are being recommended to get a whooping cough booster. In the case of chicken pox - yes, there are cases of adults getting chicken pox when they'd been vaccinated as children. However, this can also happen if you had the disease, it just depends on how much response you get from the immune system upon exposure. That's why herd immunity is so important - to protect those who can't be vaccinated or who's immune system didn't respond strongly. So, maybe ask your doctor what boosters you need.
Post by: bugbaby on February 07, 2018, 05:52:29 PM
Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk
Post by: eliza on February 07, 2018, 06:16:59 PM
SS: I just don't know what to do.
Me: Ok. What's the sticking point?
SS: Well, my work life balance will be better in one position.
Me: How much better?
SS: Well, I'll probably work the same hours, but I won't have to do the four weeks of call/year that I'll have to in the other job.
Me: What's the upside of the other (less work-life balance job)?
SS: It pays more.
Me: How much more?
SS: $100,000
Me: PER YEAR?
SS: Yes. But four weeks of on-call.
Me: Would you work a week of on-call for $25,000?
SS: Of COURSE!
Me: Then take high-paying job!
SS: But, work-life balance.
Me: It's a tough decision --- just think through which job is going to get you to where you want to be in ten years.
And that's all the advice I'm giving --- it's not my life. But $100,000 a year difference. I can't even imagine turning that down. Especially not with the debt load she and her husband have.
Post by: Miss Piggy on February 07, 2018, 06:52:35 PM
My spendypants sister (SS) mentioned up thread is evaluating two job offers for her post-post-grad employment.
And that's all the advice I'm giving --- it's not my life. But $100,000 a year difference. I can't even imagine turning that down. Especially not with the debt load she and her husband have.
Holy crap. Can I work her on-call weeks for half of that???!!!
Post by: frugalfoothills on February 07, 2018, 08:25:14 PM
Few things to chime in on:
- my sis and BIL are fully anti vaxx. This is a point of great contention for me but I keep hoping the real world will slap them in the face and they will change their ways before they have children. My sis has told me she doesn’t need maternity care with her health cost sharing ministry because she will never step foot into a hospital during the prenatal care, birth, or postnatal care phase. I wonder what life would feel like if you were that confident in things going 100% correctly, always?
- multiple others who graduated with my BIL feel the same way. My observations are that these “new age” chiropractic types are all very much indoctrinated to distrust conventional medicine
And lastly, a new development with my unemployed soon to be millionaires: they have each gotten separate $60/month gym memberships! On top of their existing $50/month membership to some rowing facility. Paid for with money from their business loan, obviously. My sister texted me after a hot yoga class tonight telling me I should really think about taking it up since it is so amazing for stress.
What the fuck do they have to be stressed about!? They are living the dream!!
Post by: ScreamingHeadGuy on February 07, 2018, 09:14:43 PM
Post by: bugbaby on February 07, 2018, 10:56:27 PM
Ha, for a sec, I got the sisters mixed up, that OP's sis & chiro BIL's $$ problems solved in an epic climactic way ...HaMy spendypants sister (SS) mentioned up thread is evaluating two job offers for her post-post-grad employment.
And that's all the advice I'm giving --- it's not my life. But $100,000 a year difference. I can't even imagine turning that down. Especially not with the debt load she and her husband have.
Holy crap. Can I work her on-call weeks for half of that???!!!
Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk
Post by: Linea_Norway on February 08, 2018, 12:30:41 AM
And lastly, a new development with my unemployed soon to be millionaires: they have each gotten separate $60/month gym memberships! On top of their existing $50/month membership to some rowing facility. Paid for with money from their business loan, obviously. My sister texted me after a hot yoga class tonight telling me I should really think about taking it up since it is so amazing for stress.
What the fuck do they have to be stressed about!? They are living the dream!!
Is it an idea to text her back telling her that you get stressed by them spending so much of their business loan on other stuff than building the business?
No, I'm wrong. It is wrong to interfere in their spending habit, as it is their own responsibility. It would just have been to great if anyone had ever taught them how to handle finances. Strange that a vet school, where a certain percentage is expected to build their own practice doesn't teach a business class.
Just keep your purse closed when they come begging you for financial help later.
Post by: Just Joe on February 08, 2018, 07:47:40 AM
The problem is that people remember chicken pox. And they use that memory of chicken pox as a proxy for all the rest. "Oh, chicken pox isn't a big deal, it's not dangerous, I don't need to get the kids vaccinated" and then they apply that attitude to other vaccines. They use religion, or "clean living" or autism, or whatever as the cover, the excuse. But they don't get vaccinated. They don't remember measles, or smallpox, or tetanus, etc. If they actually SAW some of those other diseases, or developed a new "cultural memory" all of a sudden the gut level instinct changes.
That's what Google Images and YouTube are for. Go look at the pictures of polio patients in iron lungs. Read recent articles about people who are still reliant on those antique things in 2018. They have spent their entire life in a machine or near a machine just in case. And nobody will work on these machines anymore so if the machine stops, so do these people's lives.
There are urban explorers crawling through the ruins of enormous hospitals and asylums constructed to house/treat people with various diseases that have been eradicated before 2018. We can see how prevalent these problems were back then. Its all documented around the web.
All a person ought to do is read/watch history. Vintage pictures and vintage movies. A peek into the past can really be scary.
Post by: Sibley on February 08, 2018, 02:39:34 PM
The problem is that people remember chicken pox. And they use that memory of chicken pox as a proxy for all the rest. "Oh, chicken pox isn't a big deal, it's not dangerous, I don't need to get the kids vaccinated" and then they apply that attitude to other vaccines. They use religion, or "clean living" or autism, or whatever as the cover, the excuse. But they don't get vaccinated. They don't remember measles, or smallpox, or tetanus, etc. If they actually SAW some of those other diseases, or developed a new "cultural memory" all of a sudden the gut level instinct changes.
That's what Google Images and YouTube are for. Go look at the pictures of polio patients in iron lungs. Read recent articles about people who are still reliant on those antique things in 2018. They have spent their entire life in a machine or near a machine just in case. And nobody will work on these machines anymore so if the machine stops, so do these people's lives.
There are urban explorers crawling through the ruins of enormous hospitals and asylums constructed to house/treat people with various diseases that have been eradicated before 2018. We can see how prevalent these problems were back then. Its all documented around the web.
All a person ought to do is read/watch history. Vintage pictures and vintage movies. A peek into the past can really be scary.
Yes you're right. But you're thinking too logically. You're not an anti-vaxxer, neither am I. Logic isn't going to work for many of them - they need to feel real consequences in order to figure out they're wrong. The only way they will is if the cost for NOT vaccinating gets too high. Two ways for that to happen - actual disease, or societal pressure. Neither is pretty.
Post by: kenner on February 08, 2018, 07:43:45 PM
The problem is that people remember chicken pox. And they use that memory of chicken pox as a proxy for all the rest. "Oh, chicken pox isn't a big deal, it's not dangerous, I don't need to get the kids vaccinated" and then they apply that attitude to other vaccines. They use religion, or "clean living" or autism, or whatever as the cover, the excuse. But they don't get vaccinated. They don't remember measles, or smallpox, or tetanus, etc. If they actually SAW some of those other diseases, or developed a new "cultural memory" all of a sudden the gut level instinct changes.
That's what Google Images and YouTube are for. Go look at the pictures of polio patients in iron lungs. Read recent articles about people who are still reliant on those antique things in 2018. They have spent their entire life in a machine or near a machine just in case. And nobody will work on these machines anymore so if the machine stops, so do these people's lives.
There are urban explorers crawling through the ruins of enormous hospitals and asylums constructed to house/treat people with various diseases that have been eradicated before 2018. We can see how prevalent these problems were back then. Its all documented around the web.
All a person ought to do is read/watch history. Vintage pictures and vintage movies. A peek into the past can really be scary.
Yes you're right. But you're thinking too logically. You're not an anti-vaxxer, neither am I. Logic isn't going to work for many of them - they need to feel real consequences in order to figure out they're wrong. The only way they will is if the cost for NOT vaccinating gets too high. Two ways for that to happen - actual disease, or societal pressure. Neither is pretty.
One of my grandmothers was a nurse way back when, and I remember her talking to my mother when there was some story on the news about people objecting to vaccinations. It was a while back so I'm not sure if anti-vax was such a big deal at the time, but her response pretty close to word-for-word: 'Those idiots wouldn't know an iron lung if it fell on them, and instead of being grateful they act like their parents did them some horrible wrong. It's a shame their children will be the ones who pay for their stupidity.'
As much as I wouldn't wish harm on anyone, I suspect she was right and it's going to take an outbreak of something nasty (and probably preventable) before people realize just what some of those vaccinations they're so opposed to actually protect against.
Post by: Spiffsome on February 09, 2018, 12:49:28 AM
On the original topic, frugalfoothills, it seems you'd be a lot happier if you weren't having your face rubbed in this idiotic bullshit regularly. Does anyone have any ideas on how to get the texts to stop?
Post by: krustyburger on February 09, 2018, 04:34:38 AM
On the original topic, frugalfoothills, it seems you'd be a lot happier if you weren't having your face rubbed in this idiotic bullshit regularly. Does anyone have any ideas on how to get the texts to stop?
No no no don't stop the texts, this thread is amazing, it's like a car crash in really really slow motion, I can't look away
Post by: kina on February 09, 2018, 09:40:45 AM
On the original topic, frugalfoothills, it seems you'd be a lot happier if you weren't having your face rubbed in this idiotic bullshit regularly. Does anyone have any ideas on how to get the texts to stop?
No no no don't stop the texts, this thread is amazing, it's like a car crash in really really slow motion, I can't look away
I'll second that!
Post by: YttriumNitrate on February 09, 2018, 11:12:59 AM
Quote from: casserole_dish link=topic=86790.msg1892241#msg1892241
No no no don't stop the texts, this thread is amazing, it's like a car crash in really really slow motion, I can't look awayIndeed, although to make this more interesting, we should really start betting on when frugalfoothills' brother-in-law will ask his father for more money.
***The winner gets 10 internet points, and the pride of being right!!!***
My guess is that they will make it to January 15, 2019 before asking for more money.
Post by: Sibley on February 09, 2018, 02:35:55 PM
Quote from: casserole_dish link=topic=86790.msg1892241#msg1892241No no no don't stop the texts, this thread is amazing, it's like a car crash in really really slow motion, I can't look awayIndeed, although to make this more interesting, we should really start betting on when frugalfoothills' brother-in-law will ask his father for more money.
***The winner gets 10 internet points, and the pride of being right!!!***
My guess is that they will make it to January 15, 2019 before asking for more money.
Oh, sooner the way they're spending it. I'll give them about 6 months, so say July 15th.
Post by: Zamboni on February 09, 2018, 02:57:13 PM
Remind me, how big was this business loan? and when was it?
Post by: eliza on February 09, 2018, 03:45:43 PM
Quote from: casserole_dish link=topic=86790.msg1892241#msg1892241No no no don't stop the texts, this thread is amazing, it's like a car crash in really really slow motion, I can't look awayIndeed, although to make this more interesting, we should really start betting on when frugalfoothills' brother-in-law will ask his father for more money.
***The winner gets 10 internet points, and the pride of being right!!!***
My guess is that they will make it to January 15, 2019 before asking for more money.
Ooooooooo! I love internet points. And being right! Gotta think about this one.
Post by: Apple_Tango on February 09, 2018, 05:43:33 PM
Post by: Fomerly known as something on February 09, 2018, 06:22:51 PM
Post by: Apple_Tango on February 09, 2018, 10:48:02 PM
I am taking July 2018. A month before opening. It just feels right. Though whoever said Aug. has a great spot too...that makes a ton of sense. I'm having to be mildly pessimistic. I should probably take Sept.
It could definitely be July or September! A month before opening “dad! Help we need just a bit more” or a month after opening “dad! Help! We’re just starting and not as many customers came in as we were expecting. We need some money for advertising- that will turn it around”
Post by: Linea_Norway on February 10, 2018, 01:01:51 PM
Post by: Beard N Bones on February 10, 2018, 06:18:30 PM
Quote from: casserole_dish link=topic=86790.msg1892241#msg1892241No no no don't stop the texts, this thread is amazing, it's like a car crash in really really slow motion, I can't look awayIndeed, although to make this more interesting, we should really start betting on when frugalfoothills' brother-in-law will ask his father for more money.
***The winner gets 10 internet points, and the pride of being right!!!***
My guess is that they will make it to January 15, 2019 before asking for more money.
I don't know why everyone is 6 months plus on this one. My guess is one month before Independence Day, in June 4th. I'm dubbing this day as Dependence Day.
Living off loans. $60/mn/person gym memberships. $50/mn rowing. Hot yoga. New chest. Bed stuff. Surely there is more spending that we don't hear about. Yep. Dependence Day indeed.
Post by: Gronnie on February 10, 2018, 07:19:30 PM
Post by: Beard N Bones on February 10, 2018, 09:18:16 PM
If sis is choosing between jobs where one pays $100k more than the other, sounds like they may not be exactly frugal but definitely shouldn't end up in the poorhouse.Gronnie! Is this a vote that the BIL and sis will not be asking for more cash again?! That's ballsy!
Post by: Gronnie on February 11, 2018, 12:15:38 AM
If sis is choosing between jobs where one pays $100k more than the other, sounds like they may not be exactly frugal but definitely shouldn't end up in the poorhouse.Gronnie! Is this a vote that the BIL and sis will not be asking for more cash again?! That's ballsy!
Hell no, they'll definitely be asking for more money. I predict they will make enough payments to keep stringing along lenders to give them more and more for a very long time.
Post by: Step37 on February 11, 2018, 12:41:52 AM
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on February 11, 2018, 05:42:04 AM
On the side topic, I’ve talked to my four-year-old so much about how lucky we are to have vaccines that at her last checkup she was impatient for her “fancy ouchies”. She made a face at the shots but didn’t even consider crying because she knows how important they are.
I had my parents roll up their sleeves to show her their smallpox vaccine scars in one of these conversations, and talked about how everybody in the world got them so nobody has to deal with that disease ever again.
Smallpox vaccine scars are pretty gross.
Post by: Zamboni on February 11, 2018, 09:25:04 AM
May 2016 Sis Graduation with Masters, but no student loans! (Thanks fam!)
Oct 2016-Oct 2017 Sis works part time at hospital
Oct 2017 Sis stops working
Dec 2017 BIL Graduation from Chiropractic school
$90K student loans
$150K personal loan from his father
Jan 2018 Relocation to HCOL area, both unemployed
start renting 3 BR house at ~$2K/month
Mar 2018 Initial target date for office opening
July 2018 Revised target date for office opening
Courtesy of YttriumNitrate, bets on the table for when they will ask for more money:
(***The winner gets 10 internet points, and the pride of being right!!!***)
(unless you state a date, you are getting the first of the month)
May 1, 2018 neverrun
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose?
July 15, 2018 Sibley
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Post by: Roe on February 11, 2018, 09:42:39 AM
My guess is August, after a blowout summer vacation because they deserve it for how hard they’re about to work.
That made me laugh, thank you for the free entertainment!
Okay, this is getting confusing, so I'm organizing at timeline of the most relevant events for us and tabulating the bets on the table so far:
May 2016 Sis Graduation with Masters, but no student loans! (Thanks fam!)
Oct 2016-Oct 2017 Sis works part time at hospital
Oct 2017 Sis stops working
Dec 2017 BIL Graduation from Chiropractic school
$90K student loans
$150K personal loan from his father
Jan 2018 Relocation to HCOL area, both unemployed
start renting 3 BR house at ~$2K/month
Mar 2018 Initial target date for office opening
July 2018 Revised target date for office opening
Courtesy of YttriumNitrate, bets on the table for when they will ask for more money:
(***The winner gets 10 internet points, and the pride of being right!!!***)
(unless you state a date, you are getting the first of the month)
May 1, 2018 neverrun
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose?
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Hoping that Yt(NO3)3 or "never" wins, but doubt it. Added my vote for July.
Post by: iris lily on February 11, 2018, 12:15:11 PM
I always love an opportunity to pimp DH’s Chiropractor cousin, Dr. Erik.The “special program” sounds like it could be a multi-level marketing scheme. That would be a way to gross a cool mill without much trouble.
Yo, it's not an MLM. It's a reverse funnel!
Yes he IS a millionaire several times over, but that likely has somethng to do with California real estate (now Swiss real estate) and giving HowToGetRich seminars and packages he sells to other chiros.
http://www.practicewealth.com
He is very entreprenureal. He came to the U.S. when young, went to
Chiro school, moved to CAlif, set up a practice and worked for decades while a first wife sold real estate, then somewhere in there he moved into selling seminars. His website is awful and ancient looking and I cannot think why he doesnt get something more modern. But anyway, he “retired” back to Switzerland with a young blonde second wife and small children, the very definition of Success. Haha.
It seems to me that chiropractic medicine was his tool for sales and success. He probably would have landed in the same place usng a different service model. He is an interesting case in our family, thats for sure.
I have never darkened the door of a Chiro, and doubt that I ever will.
Post by: iris lily on February 11, 2018, 12:38:32 PM
Whereas, and I'm sorry, but I hope those children DO fall ill from a preventable disease. Because that's probably the only way the idiot anti-vaxxers are going to get some sense knocked into them. A round of mild to moderate measles causing 2 months of quarantine sounds like a perfect punishment for putting others at risk because you don't want to take advantage of one of the most important and impactful public health advances in history (hygiene did more, but vaccines are way up there).
I find this comment to be extremely inappropriate, rude and uncalled for. Why are you wishing harm on anyone?!
It would be the same if someone wished that you had a heart attack, stroke, a mental issue (like alzheimers, depression, anxiety, or cancer) because you never got 30 minutes of moderate/vigorous exercise/day, or ate 5 servings of fruits and vegetables/day. (As everyone knows that exercise and a healthy diet prevents many chronic diseases. And parents who are inactive, sedentary and don't eat healthy, are more likely to have kids that are also inactive, sedentary and eat poorly.) Do you exercise daily and always eat healthy Sibley?
Your approach to this topic helps no-one Sibley.
[FWIW - My family and I have all been vaccinated.]
Unless Sibley has amazing powers, her "approach" will not affect anyone, unlike anti-vaxxers, whose approach literally puts the lives of others at risk. This is why your indignant comparison is totally wrong: Sibley not excercising and eating right would only affect Sibley. The fall in vaccination rates has affected MILLIONS worldwide.
I can understand his/her frustration - you certainly don't want anyone dead, but if the children fell ill, you'd hope their parents would come to their senses. Unfortunately, it would probably cause them to double down, because humans are great at lying to themselves.
@Beard N Bones , I have a habit of thinking at a population level. You, clearly, think at an individual level. This isn't wrong, but it is very different and tends to result in exactly the reaction you had when you run into someone who thinks at a population level - disgust and fear. Because if I don't care about a couple of children, then clearly I don't care about you. Which is terrifying. It's ok, it's normal, but you need to understand.
At a population level, low vaccination rates are disastrous, and individuals don't matter - it's aggregate only. At an individual level, each individual matters. Even a handful of people getting sick is huge in that mind set. If you're looking at a whole population, who cares if a few sickly individuals die? It may even be good for the population as a whole because whatever's causing them to be sickly and weak is not being passed down to future generations. In the long view, at a population level, we are FAR better off if a small number of people get sick and remind the rest of the group WHY we have vaccines. The alternative is eventually a pandemic that kills millions and sickens hundreds of millions.
You can apply this population-level thinking to a lot of situations. It boils down to the classic ethical dilemma - do you flip the switch to move the train to kill the baby but spare the larger number of people on the other track? I fall onto the side of saving the larger number of people than the 1. Doesn't mean I won't mourn the 1, but in the abstract, I view 1 death to be a lessor tragedy than 100 deaths.
There have been cases where anti-vaxxers DID change their minds because their children got sick, and they've gone on to vaccinate as recommended. As a population, we've forgotten the great epidemics and pandemics of the past (at least in the US). I do not remember when polio was sweeping through the country, killing and paralyzing. I don't remember measles, or mumps, or whooping cough. I'm not old enough. Hardly anyone today is. The problem is that because we don't have that daily reminder, we also can forget why it matters and other, lessor concerns will dictate the decision. In other places that still have these diseases, mothers are desperate to get their children vaccinated. Because they know the cost if they don't - death, disability, deformity.
So yes, it would be better for the population if a handful of children get the measles to remind everyone else of the danger. If I pull it down to an individual level, I don't want the child(ren) to get sick. (I'd be ok with the mother getting sick though to punish her for her stupidity, but that's different, she's responsible.)
And no, I don't have amazing powers. Wish I did, cause that would be cool. :)
This is enexcellent way to state how point of view affects the discussion of a thing.
One analogous situation is neutering pet dogs. Some people in my circle become apolpletic when a person dares to express the idea that their pet, for factually accurate reasons, will not be neutered, or at least will not be on a timeline dictated by rescue groups.
Yes, from the view of the popular good, it is wrong, but from the view of a responsible owner providing healthcare for her individual dog, it is right.
Post by: frugalfoothills on February 11, 2018, 06:17:02 PM
Did I miss something?
They’ve living off of the 150K business loan, which is meant to set up the business, right?
What money are they going to use to set up the business?? And why is there such a huge delay for the business to open? Also, what kind of clinic requires less than 150K in set up costs???
I feel like something is seriously missing here.
Confused?? Join the club, man!
The 150k loan is *technically* a loan for them to open the business, but it’s a loan from his father. They are using about $75k to build out their office space (that construction process has just started so I’m assuming that number will climb, as it does with most construction projects), and another $30-40k for equipment, etc. Apparently when they sat down to discuss this loan and sign on the dotted line, they decided that even though they thought they’d only need around $110-$120k to start the business, they realized that they wouldn’t be working for (at that time, three) but now seven months, so they “decided to take out more than they needed to accommodate for living expenses.”
The business was delayed opening because my BIL didn’t get the scores needed to practice in the state they moved to. Of course, they didn’t wait to get his scores back before signing the lease for the office space and hiring a contractor, etc. So basically now there’s all this work going into building out the space and it’s set to be done in March, which is when they were originally supposed to open, but now he has to re-take his boards in May. He won’t get the results until July, which means that’s the absolute earliest they can open.
There’s also still the possibility he won’t pass in May but, true to form, they’re not even considering that. No contingency plan.
So, as far as the money: they get $150k dropped on them, expect to spend $120ish on the office opening, and see the other $30k as money to live on until they start bringing in the big bucks (presumably the second they open.) That means rent, Whole Foods shopping trips, gym memberships, blah blah blah. Oh and also, using it to make payments on his student loans when those start rolling in.
If you’re thinking that sounds like a super bad idea, SAME!
Post by: frugalecon on February 11, 2018, 07:18:24 PM
Did I miss something?
They’ve living off of the 150K business loan, which is meant to set up the business, right?
What money are they going to use to set up the business?? And why is there such a huge delay for the business to open? Also, what kind of clinic requires less than 150K in set up costs???
I feel like something is seriously missing here.
Confused?? Join the club, man!
The 150k loan is *technically* a loan for them to open the business, but it’s a loan from his father. They are using about $75k to build out their office space (that construction process has just started so I’m assuming that number will climb, as it does with most construction projects), and another $30-40k for equipment, etc. Apparently when they sat down to discuss this loan and sign on the dotted line, they decided that even though they thought they’d only need around $110-$120k to start the business, they realized that they wouldn’t be working for (at that time, three) but now seven months, so they “decided to take out more than they needed to accommodate for living expenses.”
The business was delayed opening because my BIL didn’t get the scores needed to practice in the state they moved to. Of course, they didn’t wait to get his scores back before signing the lease for the office space and hiring a contractor, etc. So basically now there’s all this work going into building out the space and it’s set to be done in March, which is when they were originally supposed to open, but now he has to re-take his boards in May. He won’t get the results until July, which means that’s the absolute earliest they can open.
There’s also still the possibility he won’t pass in May but, true to form, they’re not even considering that. No contingency plan.
So, as far as the money: they get $150k dropped on them, expect to spend $120ish on the office opening, and see the other $30k as money to live on until they start bringing in the big bucks (presumably the second they open.) That means rent, Whole Foods shopping trips, gym memberships, blah blah blah. Oh and also, using it to make payments on his student loans when those start rolling in.
If you’re thinking that sounds like a super bad idea, SAME!
My father used to talk about people "living a Champagne lifestyle on a beer budget." Sounds like that describes your relatives.
I don't wish ill on anyone, and I always hope that people with seemingly unrealistic plans will somehow make it all work, but it really doesn't seem to. The crazy thing is that it is pretty feasible to get rich in this country, where rich means FI, but it doesn't go quickly. But lots of people want to shortcut the process. I wonder if they look at those of us who just keep our nose to the grindstone as chumps. (Of course, I try to avoid letting them know what our net worth is.)
Post by: Zamboni on February 11, 2018, 07:29:13 PM
Mar 15, 2018 lhamo
May 1, 2018 neverrun
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose?
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Post by: Beard N Bones on February 11, 2018, 07:50:32 PM
Did I miss something?
They’ve living off of the 150K business loan, which is meant to set up the business, right?
What money are they going to use to set up the business?? And why is there such a huge delay for the business to open? Also, what kind of clinic requires less than 150K in set up costs???
I feel like something is seriously missing here.
Confused?? Join the club, man!
The 150k loan is *technically* a loan for them to open the business, but it’s a loan from his father. They are using about $75k to build out their office space (that construction process has just started so I’m assuming that number will climb, as it does with most construction projects), and another $30-40k for equipment, etc. Apparently when they sat down to discuss this loan and sign on the dotted line, they decided that even though they thought they’d only need around $110-$120k to start the business, they realized that they wouldn’t be working for (at that time, three) but now seven months, so they “decided to take out more than they needed to accommodate for living expenses.”
The business was delayed opening because my BIL didn’t get the scores needed to practice in the state they moved to. Of course, they didn’t wait to get his scores back before signing the lease for the office space and hiring a contractor, etc. So basically now there’s all this work going into building out the space and it’s set to be done in March, which is when they were originally supposed to open, but now he has to re-take his boards in May. He won’t get the results until July, which means that’s the absolute earliest they can open.
There’s also still the possibility he won’t pass in May but, true to form, they’re not even considering that. No contingency plan.
So, as far as the money: they get $150k dropped on them, expect to spend $120ish on the office opening, and see the other $30k as money to live on until they start bringing in the big bucks (presumably the second they open.) That means rent, Whole Foods shopping trips, gym memberships, blah blah blah. Oh and also, using it to make payments on his student loans when those start rolling in.
If you’re thinking that sounds like a super bad idea, SAME!
frugalfoothills! Reading this most recent information makes my head hurt! You have previously described a shake-your-head-and-laugh-about-it type scenario. And now it's gotten into the I'm-cringing-and-can't-watch territory.
I assume you have a very different approach to your finances and business. Where did your sister and BIL go off track so badly? What's wrong with them?
Post by: jinga nation on February 11, 2018, 09:23:48 PM
Please don't tell me y'all some type of Asian. Because this story is somewhat common in Indian, Chinese, Vietnamese families. I've seen enough wrecks in friends' families (my friends were the engineers, their siblings in the medical fields).
Post by: Linea_Norway on February 12, 2018, 02:24:51 AM
Quote
There have been cases where anti-vaxxers DID change their minds because their children got sick, and they've gone on to vaccinate as recommended. As a population, we've forgotten the great epidemics and pandemics of the past (at least in the US). I do not remember when polio was sweeping through the country, killing and paralyzing. I don't remember measles, or mumps, or whooping cough. I'm not old enough. Hardly anyone today is. The problem is that because we don't have that daily reminder, we also can forget why it matters and other, lessor concerns will dictate the decision. In other places that still have these diseases, mothers are desperate to get their children vaccinated. Because they know the cost if they don't - death, disability, deformity.
I think it is time for a large information campaign with scary pictures and films. Like they do in some countries with posting lung cancer pictures on cigarette packets. Hang up posters of diseases in schools to scare children and let them put pressure on their parents. Put posters in places that parents visit. Put them in doctor's offices. Make TV commercials with scary films. Put adds on facebook for people who join anti-vac groups. I think that might make a difference without anyone needing to get the actual disease. Why hasn't this started yet?
Post by: Mezzie on February 12, 2018, 06:17:22 AM
I hope he's at least studying, but based on their other actions, they seem to just think things will magically work out, so who knows.
Post by: partgypsy on February 12, 2018, 06:36:23 AM
My prediction:
They are probably blowing through at least 8k/month just on living/lifestyle expenses.
Within the next 6 weeks, they will buy a new car for 35-50k
There is at least a 25% probability that they will find the perfect piece of rural land sometime before May 1, and will go into contract for that.
They'll probably get their first payment notice for the student loans sometime in early June.
I predict the hands will be extended for more parental funds no later than June 15, 2018.
I was going to say July 1st, when the rubber hits the road, but this is close enough : )
Wow I just read he hasn't passed his boards yet. I realize I think I'm different than most people. I worry more. I want to make sure things are planned for and there are contigency plans. So many ways they are doing this, would drive me crazy. The living off of borrowed money. And building an office space to perform in a medical field I can't legally practice in because I flunked the boards. UGH!
Post by: bugbaby on February 12, 2018, 06:39:26 AM
Wow.
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Post by: ExpNSS on February 12, 2018, 06:41:49 AM
Egad, he hasn't passed the boards yet?! I'm going stick with my November bet, but based on all this new information, unfortunately I no longer think they will make it to June without asking for more money.
Mar 15, 2018 lhamo
May 1, 2018 neverrun
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose?
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Posting to follow and to add my guess. With the knowing that he hasn't passed boards yet, but that they are starting build out, based on the dates taken already I'm going with April 15, 2018.
Post by: KodeBlue on February 12, 2018, 06:50:45 AM
Post by: kina on February 12, 2018, 07:33:59 AM
Post by: elementz_m on February 12, 2018, 08:01:19 AM
Quote from: casserole_dish link=topic=86790.msg1892241#msg1892241No no no don't stop the texts, this thread is amazing, it's like a car crash in really really slow motion, I can't look awayIndeed, although to make this more interesting, we should really start betting on when frugalfoothills' brother-in-law will ask his father for more money.
***The winner gets 10 internet points, and the pride of being right!!!***
My guess is that they will make it to January 15, 2019 before asking for more money.
I don't know why everyone is 6 months plus on this one. My guess is one month before Independence Day, in June 4th. I'm dubbing this day as Dependence Day.
Living off loans. $60/mn/person gym memberships. $50/mn rowing. Hot yoga. New chest. Bed stuff. Surely there is more spending that we don't hear about. Yep. Dependence Day indeed.
Dependence Day - love it! 😂
Post by: Laura33 on February 12, 2018, 09:57:36 AM
The business was delayed opening because my BIL didn’t get the scores needed to practice in the state they moved to. Of course, they didn’t wait to get his scores back before signing the lease for the office space and hiring a contractor, etc. So basically now there’s all this work going into building out the space and it’s set to be done in March, which is when they were originally supposed to open, but now he has to re-take his boards in May. He won’t get the results until July, which means that’s the absolute earliest they can open.
There’s also still the possibility he won’t pass in May but, true to form, they’re not even considering that. No contingency plan.
OK, this has been fun, but now I am literally getting anxious and even a little nauseated thinking about this! There are no words beyond "wow."
Post by: frugalfoothills on February 12, 2018, 12:17:07 PM
@frugalfoothills I'm still mad you haven't given me the dimensions of her new chest, as asked previously. :-p
Please don't tell me y'all some type of Asian. Because this story is somewhat common in Indian, Chinese, Vietnamese families. I've seen enough wrecks in friends' families (my friends were the engineers, their siblings in the medical fields).
I got to see it in person last weekend. I'd guess it's about 4 feet long by 3 feet deep... 3 foot(ish) tall.
And nope, just a bunch of dumb white people over here.
Post by: frugalfoothills on February 12, 2018, 12:33:23 PM
Did I miss something?
They’ve living off of the 150K business loan, which is meant to set up the business, right?
What money are they going to use to set up the business?? And why is there such a huge delay for the business to open? Also, what kind of clinic requires less than 150K in set up costs???
I feel like something is seriously missing here.
Confused?? Join the club, man!
The 150k loan is *technically* a loan for them to open the business, but it’s a loan from his father. They are using about $75k to build out their office space (that construction process has just started so I’m assuming that number will climb, as it does with most construction projects), and another $30-40k for equipment, etc. Apparently when they sat down to discuss this loan and sign on the dotted line, they decided that even though they thought they’d only need around $110-$120k to start the business, they realized that they wouldn’t be working for (at that time, three) but now seven months, so they “decided to take out more than they needed to accommodate for living expenses.”
The business was delayed opening because my BIL didn’t get the scores needed to practice in the state they moved to. Of course, they didn’t wait to get his scores back before signing the lease for the office space and hiring a contractor, etc. So basically now there’s all this work going into building out the space and it’s set to be done in March, which is when they were originally supposed to open, but now he has to re-take his boards in May. He won’t get the results until July, which means that’s the absolute earliest they can open.
There’s also still the possibility he won’t pass in May but, true to form, they’re not even considering that. No contingency plan.
So, as far as the money: they get $150k dropped on them, expect to spend $120ish on the office opening, and see the other $30k as money to live on until they start bringing in the big bucks (presumably the second they open.) That means rent, Whole Foods shopping trips, gym memberships, blah blah blah. Oh and also, using it to make payments on his student loans when those start rolling in.
If you’re thinking that sounds like a super bad idea, SAME!
Yeeeaaaahhh...
That’s about what I thought was going on, except I couldn’t figure out the 7 month delay. Failing the boards finally fills in the missing piece. Clinics are costly things to build, but they don’t take more than a few months even if they’re highly technical.
Well, either they’re totally screwed or your BIL is pretty confident that the Bank Of Dad will provide.
I’ve known plenty of spoiled brats with equally lofty and unrealistic plans who have been so emboldened by the certainty that their parents can and will bail them out that they don’t hesitate to fling themselves face first into the sharp blades of financial risk with the fantastical promise of extraordinary pay off.
I mean, why bother having back up plans or moderating your spending if the wellspring of parental money never runs dry?
If that isn’t the case then...well...that will make Christmas interesting...
Well, that's the other thing, he didn't really FAIL the boards. He passed the boards with the score needed to be considered passing at the national level, but apparently certain states have additional scores that need to be achieved in order for you to practice in THAT state. The state they moved to has a score almost 100 points higher than the "pass" score recognized nationally.
If it were me, I probably wouldn't have picked a state where that was a requirement and then started building out my office space before I even got those scores back. Feels like a pretty big roll of the dice.
I should also add, I do adore my sis and BIL. He isn't a spoiled brat, and he is super laid back about material things... he wears super old clothes, drives a 1980 Suburban that's paid off (and he doesn't want to get rid of it), and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't care if they lived in a hut on the side of the road. His only financial idiocy is coming from this opening of the practice, and he's had so much confidence pumped into him by that program I talked about that he truly feels like it cannot fail.
My sis is also not into clothes shopping, she currently drives a paid for car and doesn't care about getting a super nice vehicle, she spends zero money on things like haircuts and manicures and stuff like that. HER financial vice is the food/personal care. She's vegan, only wants to eat organic everything, only buys organic personal care products, etc etc etc.
I personally spend way more money than they do on entertainment and stuff... I go out for drinks semi-regularly, eat out a handful of times a month, go to concerts and take trips and stuff. They don't do any of that crap, which is why it's such a confusing situation... it's like they're hemorrhaging money and have basically nothing to show for it other than a fridge full of organic food. Of course, I also have a good job with a good salary. They have no jobs with no salary.
I think they're probably best described as "head in the clouds" rather than spoiled brats. They were both lucky to come from families that provided them with super comfortable lives growing up, and they've become accustomed to that comfortable lifestyle without understanding how you achieve that lifestyle comfortably. They don't know how much they should be spending on rent, so they don't understand why $2k a month is too much. They truly, genuinely believe that the minute the practice opens they are going to be making money, and quickly, and lots of it. They have basically put all of their trust into 2 things: the word of the leaders of my BIL's program, and God.
As for the commenters saying they're feeling anxious reading this... yeah, you can imagine how me/my parents feel WATCHING this unfold in real time.
And to the commenter who asked how she turned out so differently than me: she was always very different than me, even as children. I am a worrier and she is not. I am a planner and she is not. I would rather sell my home and move into a box on the street rather than ask anyone for help, and she has no qualms about taking a handout or asking my parents to chip in on gas and groceries, etc. I have contingency plans for my contingency plans, and she doesn't even have regular plans to make contingency plans for. I put my faith re: finances in numbers and math, and she puts her faith in a higher power (not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, but when you're talking money, it wouldn't hurt to pray AND make yourself a spreadsheet.)
But you know, different strokes and all that. It's what makes the world go 'round. It's also what makes me drink.
Post by: Zamboni on February 12, 2018, 02:33:33 PM
In fact, 80% of new businesses fail within the first 18 months . . . so maybe one should plan not to make any money for two full years? How much money do you think BIL's father can afford to pour into this?
Mar 15, 2018 lhamo
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Post by: jinga nation on February 12, 2018, 03:07:27 PM
@frugalfoothills I'm still mad you haven't given me the dimensions of her new chest, as asked previously. :-p
Please don't tell me y'all some type of Asian. Because this story is somewhat common in Indian, Chinese, Vietnamese families. I've seen enough wrecks in friends' families (my friends were the engineers, their siblings in the medical fields).
I got to see it in person last weekend. I'd guess it's about 4 feet long by 3 feet deep... 3 foot(ish) tall.
And nope, just a bunch of dumb white people over here.
Coffin.
Post by: elementz_m on February 12, 2018, 11:07:08 PM
@frugalfoothills I'm still mad you haven't given me the dimensions of her new chest, as asked previously. :-p
Please don't tell me y'all some type of Asian. Because this story is somewhat common in Indian, Chinese, Vietnamese families. I've seen enough wrecks in friends' families (my friends were the engineers, their siblings in the medical fields).
I got to see it in person last weekend. I'd guess it's about 4 feet long by 3 feet deep... 3 foot(ish) tall.
And nope, just a bunch of dumb white people over here.
Coffin.
For an Oompa Loompa, maybe.
Post by: Linea_Norway on February 13, 2018, 12:40:33 AM
@frugalfoothills: I am also a planner with contingency plans. My DH often thinks I worry too much about problems that might not even happen. But it is also a good characteristic, because at least we have a plan and think things over.
Starting a business with major investments without making a plan and a spreadsheet sounds unrealistic.
Maybe their otherwise sensible lifestyle will help them repairing their lives after the business has gone wrong.
Post by: Nederstash on February 13, 2018, 03:30:43 AM
Quote from: casserole_dish link=topic=86790.msg1892241#msg1892241No no no don't stop the texts, this thread is amazing, it's like a car crash in really really slow motion, I can't look awayIndeed, although to make this more interesting, we should really start betting on when frugalfoothills' brother-in-law will ask his father for more money.
***The winner gets 10 internet points, and the pride of being right!!!***
My guess is that they will make it to January 15, 2019 before asking for more money.
I don't know why everyone is 6 months plus on this one. My guess is one month before Independence Day, in June 4th. I'm dubbing this day as Dependence Day.
Living off loans. $60/mn/person gym memberships. $50/mn rowing. Hot yoga. New chest. Bed stuff. Surely there is more spending that we don't hear about. Yep. Dependence Day indeed.
I laughed so hard my cat mewed at me because I woke him.
ALso, this thread is glorious.
Post by: Nederstash on February 13, 2018, 03:55:39 AM
They should be able to make it to Jan 2019. However, I feel that as the building's nearing finish and they start seeing pots of gold on the horizon, their spending might increase. A new car (he needs to look presentable!) or those huuuge... tracts of land (Monty Python, anyone?) (also not referring to her Oompa Loompa sized chest).
My bet is on September 29. When they realize the money isn't flowing in like it should...
Post by: Apple_Tango on February 13, 2018, 10:43:24 AM
@frugalfoothills I'm still mad you haven't given me the dimensions of her new chest, as asked previously. :-p
Please don't tell me y'all some type of Asian. Because this story is somewhat common in Indian, Chinese, Vietnamese families. I've seen enough wrecks in friends' families (my friends were the engineers, their siblings in the medical fields).
I got to see it in person last weekend. I'd guess it's about 4 feet long by 3 feet deep... 3 foot(ish) tall.
And nope, just a bunch of dumb white people over here.
Coffin.
For an Oompa Loompa, maybe.
Or fold your body in half? I can’t recall if yoga is imbedded into the lifestyle but I’m just going to assume it is.
Post by: robartsd on February 13, 2018, 03:02:35 PM
I just can’t get over building a clinic for $75K, but that’s just because I come from a world where it takes 500K-2M to build our clinics.I believe this is $75k for tenant improvement of a leased space, not to build from ground up - just building the interior rooms - typically includes framing, electrical, drywall, cabinets, flooring, and drop ceiling (usually the space will have a bathroom already or access to bathrooms off the building lobby).
Post by: Cassie on February 13, 2018, 04:35:30 PM
Post by: frugalfoothills on February 13, 2018, 04:53:20 PM
I just can’t get over building a clinic for $75K, but that’s just because I come from a world where it takes 500K-2M to build our clinics.I believe this is $75k for tenant improvement of a leased space, not to build from ground up - just building the interior rooms - typically includes framing, electrical, drywall, cabinets, flooring, and drop ceiling (usually the space will have a bathroom already or access to bathrooms off the building lobby).
This is correct. They’re leasing an office space in a shopping plaza, so the build-out is all interior walls, etc. They aren’t changing fundamentals like plumbing and stuff for the bathroom... I think one of the largest expenses is the x-ray room.
Post by: Zamboni on February 13, 2018, 06:04:47 PM
Mar 15, 2018 lhamo
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Sept 29, 2018 Nederstash
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Post by: penguintroopers on February 14, 2018, 10:51:09 AM
Mar 15, 2018 lhamo
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
July 28,2018 penguintroopers
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Sept 29, 2018 Nederstash
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Post by: Apples on February 15, 2018, 11:26:27 AM
Post by: Miss Piggy on February 15, 2018, 05:33:13 PM
Mar 15, 2018 lhamo
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 4, 2018 Miss Piggy
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
July 28,2018 penguintroopers
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Sept 29, 2018 Nederstash
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
[/quote]
Post by: robartsd on February 15, 2018, 05:58:18 PM
This is correct. They’re leasing an office space in a shopping plaza, so the build-out is all interior walls, etc. They aren’t changing fundamentals like plumbing and stuff for the bathroom... I think one of the largest expenses is the x-ray room.I think many chiropractors refer patients to radiology clinics for x-rays if needed. Of course adding a set of in-house x-rays for every patient might be lucrative.
Post by: frugalfoothills on February 16, 2018, 02:50:26 PM
The sign is up on the front of the office space!!! "XXX Chiropractic" (not the real name) is in business! Well, except not really, because the inside is still just the basic framework of where walls will be eventually, and no equipment, and also no chiropractor until July at the earliest.....
But the sign is up!!!
Post by: Miss Piggy on February 16, 2018, 03:08:16 PM
Well, except not really, because the inside is still just the basic framework of where walls will be eventually, and no equipment, and also no chiropractor until July at the earliest.....
Minor details.
Post by: Check2400 on February 16, 2018, 03:15:36 PM
Mar 15, 2018 lhamo
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 4, 2018 Miss Piggy
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
July 28,2018 penguintroopers
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Sept 29, 2018 Nederstash
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Are we doing a simple closest to the actual day, or Price is Right Rules here?
Also, @frugalfoothills , do you feel confident you'll get word back if they get another loan? Not that we want them to dig deeper into (a very likely going to be forgiven) 'debt,' but, you know, in the interest of science...
Post by: Pylortes on February 16, 2018, 10:31:35 PM
Nobody has really mentioned the possibility of outright default rather than more $ being asked for. Why should we assume with certainty BIL is going to pass his July boards? I give a 33% probability he will suffer strike two there. And if he does maybe they just give up on the clinic and one or both of them get some sort of regular job. Still I think this possibility is not likely and I hope won’t come to fruition. I’m saying he will pass, the $ will start dwindling over the summer but they will bite their tongues and wait until the Labor Day BBQ to ask FIL for more.
Post by: bugbaby on February 17, 2018, 01:48:42 AM
Great news, guys!Oh, no. That's an ominous sign. It means perhaps the budget for the construction + equipment is running low but putting up the sign is 'positive thinking' to keep up the morale.
The sign is up on the front of the office space!!! "XXX Chiropractic" (not the real name) is in business! Well, except not really, because the inside is still just the basic framework of where walls will be eventually, and no equipment, and also no chiropractor until July at the earliest.....
But the sign is up!!!
Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk
Post by: iris lily on February 17, 2018, 07:44:13 AM
Great news, guys!Oh, no. That's an ominous sign. It means perhaps the budget for the construction + equipment is running low but putting up the sign is 'positive thinking' to keep up the morale.
The sign is up on the front of the office space!!! "XXX Chiropractic" (not the real name) is in business! Well, except not really, because the inside is still just the basic framework of where walls will be eventually, and no equipment, and also no chiropractor until July at the earliest.....
But the sign is up!!!
Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk
Yes! The sign is an inviation to Prosperity to grace their chiropractor selves with more money. Prosperity Principle works! You just have to believe it and exercise its principles! Dont let it down, now.
Post by: PDXTabs on February 17, 2018, 11:26:42 AM
I'm not really sold on chiropractors as legit medical professionals, but I certainly separate the ones who seem to stay within the boundary of back pain issues from the truly weird ones who think an "adjustment" can cure any disease.
They know more about your muscular/skeletal system than any MD. The one I went to told me exactly what was wrong with my back, and what exercises to do at the gym to never come back into her office. Bad for her business, but good for me.
Post by: iris lily on February 17, 2018, 11:51:19 AM
Or, you can go to a physical therapist (after having to run through an MD) and get similar excellent advice, without the high risk of the chrio setting up regular appointments forever into the future, selling you powders and shakes, voodooing your cancer away, etc. the thing is, they just arent consistent. If you found a good chiro, good cor you.I'm not really sold on chiropractors as legit medical professionals, but I certainly separate the ones who seem to stay within the boundary of back pain issues from the truly weird ones who think an "adjustment" can cure any disease.
They know more about your muscular/skeletal system than any MD. The one I went to told me exactly what was wrong with my back, and what exercises to do at the gym to never come back into her office. Bad for her business, but good for me.
Post by: PDXTabs on February 18, 2018, 11:09:24 AM
They know more about your muscular/skeletal system than any MD. The one I went to told me exactly what was wrong with my back, and what exercises to do at the gym to never come back into her office. Bad for her business, but good for me.Or, you can go to a physical therapist (after having to run through an MD) and get similar excellent advice, without the high risk of the chrio setting up regular appointments forever into the future, selling you powders and shakes, voodooing your cancer away, etc. the thing is, they just arent consistent. If you found a good chiro, good cor you.
Absolutely, although as you point out you will need a referral from an MD. And insurance will only cover exactly what the MD writes up in the referral.
You don't have this problem with a doctor of chiropracty. But yes, you will need to find one that isn't a witch doctor.
Post by: nick663 on February 18, 2018, 01:02:04 PM
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 4, 2018 Miss Piggy
July 6, 2018 nick663
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
July 28,2018 penguintroopers
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Sept 29, 2018 Nederstash
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Throwing my hat in the ring as well. I'm thinking they'll wait until after the holiday to ask for more money.
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on February 19, 2018, 12:18:02 PM
Great news, guys!
The sign is up on the front of the office space!!! "XXX Chiropractic" (not the real name) is in business! Well, except not really, because the inside is still just the basic framework of where walls will be eventually, and no equipment, and also no chiropractor until July at the earliest.....
But the sign is up!!!
See, here's another missed opportunity. If they named it "XXX Chiropractic", limited their clientele to the 18-and-over set, and promised a slightly naughty environment, they could more than double their prices and be well on their way to paying off that loan.
Post by: Zamboni on February 19, 2018, 01:00:55 PM
They could likely quadruple their prices and still have a waitlist, Squeak! They'd have to find a way to arrange "discreet parking around back," though. I'm not sure whether or not the particular strip mall (pun not intended) is arranged properly for this. Some are, but others have back-to-back business with open and highly visible parking on all sides.
Perhaps they need to invest in an underground parking deck for their clients?
Post by: frugalfoothills on February 19, 2018, 01:31:56 PM
Great news, guys!
The sign is up on the front of the office space!!! "XXX Chiropractic" (not the real name) is in business! Well, except not really, because the inside is still just the basic framework of where walls will be eventually, and no equipment, and also no chiropractor until July at the earliest.....
But the sign is up!!!
See, here's another missed opportunity. If they named it "XXX Chiropractic", limited their clientele to the 18-and-over set, and promised a slightly naughty environment, they could more than double their prices and be well on their way to paying off that loan.
I personally love this idea. Unfortunately I don't think it will be a hit with them. They hosted a "Prayer and Scripture Writing Event" yesterday at the [very much under construction] office space for folks to come and pray over the business... my mom said there were a fair number of political references during the event, too.
I mean, what says "foolproof business model" more than hosting a religiously and politically charged event for your fledgling business that immediately ostracizes half of your potential clientele? It's like I always say, "mix business with religion and politics whenever possible." Genius!
Post by: Miss Piggy on February 19, 2018, 02:58:09 PM
Great news, guys!
The sign is up on the front of the office space!!! "XXX Chiropractic" (not the real name) is in business! Well, except not really, because the inside is still just the basic framework of where walls will be eventually, and no equipment, and also no chiropractor until July at the earliest.....
But the sign is up!!!
See, here's another missed opportunity. If they named it "XXX Chiropractic", limited their clientele to the 18-and-over set, and promised a slightly naughty environment, they could more than double their prices and be well on their way to paying off that loan.
I personally love this idea. Unfortunately I don't think it will be a hit with them. They hosted a "Prayer and Scripture Writing Event" yesterday at the [very much under construction] office space for folks to come and pray over the business... my mom said there were a fair number of political references during the event, too.
I mean, what says "foolproof business model" more than hosting a religiously and politically charged event for your fledgling business that immediately ostracizes half of your potential clientele? It's like I always say, "mix business with religion and politics whenever possible." Genius!
foothills, I think they're missing the third leg of the three-legged stool of starting a business. They've got religion and politics covered, now with the XXX suggestion, they can bring sex into the discussion. Once they've got all three of those "bring up at every opportunity" topics covered, business will BOOM!!!!
Post by: frugalfoothills on February 20, 2018, 11:52:44 AM
Great news, guys!
The sign is up on the front of the office space!!! "XXX Chiropractic" (not the real name) is in business! Well, except not really, because the inside is still just the basic framework of where walls will be eventually, and no equipment, and also no chiropractor until July at the earliest.....
But the sign is up!!!
See, here's another missed opportunity. If they named it "XXX Chiropractic", limited their clientele to the 18-and-over set, and promised a slightly naughty environment, they could more than double their prices and be well on their way to paying off that loan.
I personally love this idea. Unfortunately I don't think it will be a hit with them. They hosted a "Prayer and Scripture Writing Event" yesterday at the [very much under construction] office space for folks to come and pray over the business... my mom said there were a fair number of political references during the event, too.
I mean, what says "foolproof business model" more than hosting a religiously and politically charged event for your fledgling business that immediately ostracizes half of your potential clientele? It's like I always say, "mix business with religion and politics whenever possible." Genius!
foothills, I think they're missing the third leg of the three-legged stool of starting a business. They've got religion and politics covered, now with the XXX suggestion, they can bring sex into the discussion. Once they've got all three of those "bring up at every opportunity" topics covered, business will BOOM!!!!
I know personally when I'm shopping around for a chiropractor, I prefer one who will:
- Try to Save me during my adjustment
- Berate me with politically charged rhetoric (why don't poor people just BUY more money, am I right?????)
- Finish with a happy ending
Foolproof plan for success!
Post by: nick663 on February 20, 2018, 08:50:50 PM
Please tell me that's a real quote. I don't like to cheer for other people to fail but that just might push me over the edge.
- Berate me with politically charged rhetoric (why don't poor people just BUY more money, am I right?????)
Post by: talltexan on February 21, 2018, 01:54:44 PM
Post by: Primm on February 23, 2018, 03:53:52 AM
Mar 15, 2018 lhamo
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 11, 2018 Primm
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 4, 2018 Miss Piggy
July 6, 2018 nick663
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
July 28,2018 penguintroopers
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Sept 29, 2018 Nederstash
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Because I'm Australian, and apparently we'd bet on two flies crawling up a wall, here's mine. I'm not as optimistic as some.
Post by: MightyAl on February 23, 2018, 07:33:17 AM
Great news, guys!
The sign is up on the front of the office space!!! "XXX Chiropractic" (not the real name) is in business! Well, except not really, because the inside is still just the basic framework of where walls will be eventually, and no equipment, and also no chiropractor until July at the earliest.....
But the sign is up!!!
See, here's another missed opportunity. If they named it "XXX Chiropractic", limited their clientele to the 18-and-over set, and promised a slightly naughty environment, they could more than double their prices and be well on their way to paying off that loan.
Wasn't this a Seinfeld episode with the adult only themed dentist office?
Post by: BigLumox on March 06, 2018, 12:00:56 PM
Post by: MrMoneyMullet on March 09, 2018, 10:12:15 PM
Any updates? Are they millionaires yet?
frugalfoothills is probably busy enjoying her free house on her free, large plot of land by now. Give her a bit and she'll be back with an update.
Post by: K-ice on March 09, 2018, 10:37:34 PM
I knew a Cp who booked every 7 min. So that’s slightly more than 8 patients/hour.
I think they can charge about $80 a visit. (Insurance might not cover all of that but people pay out of pocket here for the difference.)
Working 40h/week, 50 weeks a year.
8*40*50*$80 = $1,280,000.
Minus expenses of course & they need to build up a clientele.
But that’s maybe the math the school taught them.
Post by: MrMoneyMullet on March 09, 2018, 10:45:25 PM
I knew a Cp who booked every 7 min. So that’s slightly more than 8 patients/hour.
I think they can charge about $80 a visit. (Insurance might not cover all of that but people pay out of pocket here for the difference.)
Working 40h/week, 50 weeks a year.
8*40*50*$80 = $1,280,000.
I knew this would have a Happy Ending, one way or another.
Post by: Nederstash on March 22, 2018, 01:17:08 PM
Any updates? Are they millionaires yet?
frugalfoothills is probably busy enjoying her free house on her free, large plot of land by now. Give her a bit and she'll be back with an update.
I'm itching for an update as well.
Post by: KodeBlue on March 23, 2018, 06:20:10 AM
I knew this would have a Happy Ending, one way or another.
If they did offer chiro w/ a "happy ending" they might become millionaires.
Post by: jinga nation on March 23, 2018, 09:33:00 AM
They'd have endless queues if they use the salon techniques in "You Don't Mess with the Zohan".
I knew this would have a Happy Ending, one way or another.
If they did offer chiro w/ a "happy ending" they might become millionaires.
Post by: Seradoc on March 23, 2018, 01:10:58 PM
I knew this would have a Happy Ending, one way or another.
If they did offer chiro w/ a "happy ending" they might become millionaires.
Maintaining consistent 7 minute happy endings seems ambitious.
Post by: elementz_m on March 23, 2018, 01:13:35 PM
I knew this would have a Happy Ending, one way or another.
If they did offer chiro w/ a "happy ending" they might become millionaires.
Maintaining consistent 7 minute happy endings seems ambitious.
No, it's OK. They only provide the last 30 seconds. That's all anyone's in for.
Post by: frugalfoothills on March 29, 2018, 02:30:55 PM
Money situation is still baffling to everyone except sister, BIL, and his parents. Sister got a job teaching spin classes 1x a week at the local gym. Better than nothing I guess? God is still telling them not to work. I wish that was a joke... she literally told me that any time she thinks about applying for jobs, she hears God's voice telling her to "just wait."
Also, they just purchased a riding lawnmower. To cut the lawn at the house that they're renting. Seems necessary.
Post by: Sibley on March 29, 2018, 02:47:53 PM
Post by: iris lily on March 29, 2018, 08:26:51 PM
We are serious gardeners with many plots of land to mow, granted, they are small plots around the city. But gosh darn it golly gee, we didnt buy a riding mower until this year when we bought a house with one acre. We are 63 years old. I think we can give ourselves permission to have that rider now.
Post by: GrayGhost on March 29, 2018, 09:49:06 PM
Money situation is still baffling to everyone except sister, BIL, and his parents. Sister got a job teaching spin classes 1x a week at the local gym. Better than nothing I guess? God is still telling them not to work. I wish that was a joke... she literally told me that any time she thinks about applying for jobs, she hears God's voice telling her to "just wait."
Words fail me.
Post by: marty998 on March 29, 2018, 11:23:11 PM
Post by: penguintroopers on March 30, 2018, 12:13:33 AM
she literally told me that any time she thinks about applying for jobs, she hears God's voice telling her to "just wait."
Phew boy. If the poop hits the fan, it's gonna hit hard.
Post by: Davnasty on March 30, 2018, 12:18:22 PM
Also, they just purchased a riding lawnmower. To cut the lawn at the house that they're renting. Seems necessary.
Well that’s just common fucking sense.
How big is the yard?
I want to know not because a big yard would justify this, but because a small yard would make it that much funnier. You know, in a painful I fear for the future of humanity kinda way.
Post by: bluebelle on March 30, 2018, 12:31:07 PM
Update on the soon to be millionaires: rolling into April, still 2 months away from BIL re-taking the licensing exam. Still a distinct possibility that he might not pass. As it stands now, earliest opening date is August. If he doesn't pass, it will mean re-taking again, and pushing earliest opening date back to November.If God speaks to her, won't God whisper the exam answers to him, thus guaranteeing a pass.
Money situation is still baffling to everyone except sister, BIL, and his parents. Sister got a job teaching spin classes 1x a week at the local gym. Better than nothing I guess? God is still telling them not to work. I wish that was a joke... she literally told me that any time she thinks about applying for jobs, she hears God's voice telling her to "just wait."
Also, they just purchased a riding lawnmower. To cut the lawn at the house that they're renting. Seems necessary.
of course, hearing voices speaking to you is a symptom of Schizophrenia.... just saying. But it convenient that God only tells her things whe wants to hear.
Post by: I'm a red panda on March 30, 2018, 12:39:02 PM
Or, you can go to a physical therapist (after having to run through an MD) and get similar excellent advice, without the high risk of the chrio setting up regular appointments forever into the future, selling you powders and shakes, voodooing your cancer away, etc. the thing is, they just arent consistent. If you found a good chiro, good cor you.I'm not really sold on chiropractors as legit medical professionals, but I certainly separate the ones who seem to stay within the boundary of back pain issues from the truly weird ones who think an "adjustment" can cure any disease.
They know more about your muscular/skeletal system than any MD. The one I went to told me exactly what was wrong with my back, and what exercises to do at the gym to never come back into her office. Bad for her business, but good for me.
I don't go to a chiropracter, but my copay for a chiro is half that of a PT (who is considered a specialist; a chiro is considered a primary care)- and I can have unlimited annual at a chiro, but I have to have a prescription and am limited to 20 visits at a PT. So insurance isn't helping here!
Post by: Nederstash on March 31, 2018, 01:33:06 PM
Update on the soon to be millionaires: rolling into April, still 2 months away from BIL re-taking the licensing exam. Still a distinct possibility that he might not pass. As it stands now, earliest opening date is August. If he doesn't pass, it will mean re-taking again, and pushing earliest opening date back to November.
Money situation is still baffling to everyone except sister, BIL, and his parents. Sister got a job teaching spin classes 1x a week at the local gym. Better than nothing I guess? God is still telling them not to work. I wish that was a joke... she literally told me that any time she thinks about applying for jobs, she hears God's voice telling her to "just wait."
Also, they just purchased a riding lawnmower. To cut the lawn at the house that they're renting. Seems necessary.
And the Lord said unto them: Do not work, for thine elders shall cashflow thine lifestyle, so that thee may sit back on thine lawnmower not doing a fuck. Blessed are the spin class teachers.
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on March 31, 2018, 02:59:26 PM
Update on the soon to be millionaires: rolling into April, still 2 months away from BIL re-taking the licensing exam. Still a distinct possibility that he might not pass. As it stands now, earliest opening date is August. If he doesn't pass, it will mean re-taking again, and pushing earliest opening date back to November.
Money situation is still baffling to everyone except sister, BIL, and his parents. Sister got a job teaching spin classes 1x a week at the local gym. Better than nothing I guess? God is still telling them not to work. I wish that was a joke... she literally told me that any time she thinks about applying for jobs, she hears God's voice telling her to "just wait."
Also, they just purchased a riding lawnmower. To cut the lawn at the house that they're renting. Seems necessary.
And the Lord said unto them: Do not work, for thine elders shall cashflow thine lifestyle, so that thee may sit back on thine lawnmower not doing a fuck. Blessed are the spin class teachers.
Then the lilies of the field have one up on them.
Post by: Apple_Tango on March 31, 2018, 09:16:00 PM
*just wait* -God.
Post by: calimom on March 31, 2018, 09:55:50 PM
Update on the soon to be millionaires: rolling into April, still 2 months away from BIL re-taking the licensing exam. Still a distinct possibility that he might not pass. As it stands now, earliest opening date is August. If he doesn't pass, it will mean re-taking again, and pushing earliest opening date back to November.
Money situation is still baffling to everyone except sister, BIL, and his parents. Sister got a job teaching spin classes 1x a week at the local gym. Better than nothing I guess? God is still telling them not to work. I wish that was a joke... she literally told me that any time she thinks about applying for jobs, she hears God's voice telling her to "just wait."
Also, they just purchased a riding lawnmower. To cut the lawn at the house that they're renting. Seems necessary.
And the Lord said unto them: Do not work, for thine elders shall cashflow thine lifestyle, so that thee may sit back on thine lawnmower not doing a fuck. Blessed are the spin class teachers.
Well it's called Soul Cycle for a reason.
Good thing she doesn't listen to the God that would suggest a part time job. Heaven forbid.
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on April 01, 2018, 03:36:33 PM
Update on the soon to be millionaires: rolling into April, still 2 months away from BIL re-taking the licensing exam. Still a distinct possibility that he might not pass. As it stands now, earliest opening date is August. If he doesn't pass, it will mean re-taking again, and pushing earliest opening date back to November.
Money situation is still baffling to everyone except sister, BIL, and his parents. Sister got a job teaching spin classes 1x a week at the local gym. Better than nothing I guess? God is still telling them not to work. I wish that was a joke... she literally told me that any time she thinks about applying for jobs, she hears God's voice telling her to "just wait."
Also, they just purchased a riding lawnmower. To cut the lawn at the house that they're renting. Seems necessary.
There's a bus sized hunk of brown stuff heading towards a great big whirly thing as we speak....
Post by: ScreamingHeadGuy on April 01, 2018, 04:29:45 PM
When it hits the fan God will say "Don't blame this shit on Me. Your misinterpretation of My words is your own fault."Update on the soon to be millionaires: rolling into April, still 2 months away from BIL re-taking the licensing exam. Still a distinct possibility that he might not pass. As it stands now, earliest opening date is August. If he doesn't pass, it will mean re-taking again, and pushing earliest opening date back to November.
Money situation is still baffling to everyone except sister, BIL, and his parents. Sister got a job teaching spin classes 1x a week at the local gym. Better than nothing I guess? God is still telling them not to work. I wish that was a joke... she literally told me that any time she thinks about applying for jobs, she hears God's voice telling her to "just wait."
Also, they just purchased a riding lawnmower. To cut the lawn at the house that they're renting. Seems necessary.
And the Lord said unto them: Do not work, for thine elders shall cashflow thine lifestyle, so that thee may sit back on thine lawnmower not doing a fuck. Blessed are the spin class teachers.
Thank you Nederstash.
Bless you!
Post by: Just Joe on April 02, 2018, 08:51:14 AM
Post by: frugalfoothills on April 02, 2018, 10:27:54 AM
Did they finance or lease the mower?
Well, I suppose they technically paid cash for it. But that cash came from the loan that father-in-law gave them to start the business, so I believe that's technically financed. Whether you borrow money from the lawnmower store, or you borrow money from your FIL and use it to pay the lawnmower store, the money is still borrowed. This concept continues to evade them.
Post by: frugalfoothills on April 02, 2018, 10:36:06 AM
- Their yard is probably a little over half an acre, which is absurdly more than they need, much like everything else about their living situation. Also, a large chunk of the yard is taken up by a garden, and the grassy areas have been destroyed by their dogs who love to dig, so the mower feels... excessive.
- We (my parents & I) believe they bought the mower secondhand, but we have no real reason to think this. At this point we just tell ourselves things to make ourselves feel better. "Well, surely they bought it used..... surely.........."
In other news, my parents went to visit them yesterday for Easter. I sat that one out as I'm not religious myself, but apparently there were a couple of gems during the post-church BBQ.
"We are seriously considering buying this house. We need to talk to the landlord about what she would sell it for."
"There's plenty of space to add an addition off the back!"
"We are going to get a cabin in the mountains. We would rather have a mountain house than a beach house."
As a commenter said upthread... Blessed are the spin class teachers!
Post by: Maenad on April 02, 2018, 11:20:38 AM
she literally told me that any time she thinks about applying for jobs, she hears God's voice telling her to "just wait."
Honestly, when I read this, I heard the mom from A Christmas Story saying, "Just you wait until your father gets home - you're gonna get it!"
Or maybe God is telling her to wait so he could tell some of the other deities, "Hold my beer and watch this".
Post by: Davnasty on April 02, 2018, 01:57:33 PM
she literally told me that any time she thinks about applying for jobs, she hears God's voice telling her to "just wait."
Honestly, when I read this, I heard the mom from A Christmas Story saying, "Just you wait until your father gets home - you're gonna get it!"
Or maybe God is telling her to wait so he could tell some of the other deities, "Hold my beer and watch this".
Or maybe God is reading this thread and really wants to see where this is going.
Post by: partgypsy on April 02, 2018, 03:08:23 PM
she literally told me that any time she thinks about applying for jobs, she hears God's voice telling her to "just wait."
Honestly, when I read this, I heard the mom from A Christmas Story saying, "Just you wait until your father gets home - you're gonna get it!"
Or maybe God is telling her to wait so he could tell some of the other deities, "Hold my beer and watch this".
Or maybe God is reading this thread and really wants to see where this is going.
lol
This thread is entertaining to me, in a train wreck kind of way.
Post by: calimom on April 03, 2018, 04:02:35 PM
Post by: FIPurpose on April 05, 2018, 07:03:18 AM
Post by: barbaz on April 05, 2018, 07:56:55 AM
Is their god also an employment counselor? Nice that god can work that in what with all the wars, diseases, natural disasters and mass shootings.And the cataracts of Sam‘s mum
Post by: LittleWanderer on April 05, 2018, 08:24:58 AM
I'm going to throw my hat into the ring and guess August 15th.
Post by: Basenji on April 05, 2018, 10:32:13 AM
Couple questions about the lawnmower, so I will answer them here:
- We (my parents & I) believe they bought the mower secondhand, but we have no real reason to think this. At this point we just tell ourselves things to make ourselves feel better. "Well, surely they bought it used..... surely.........."
Ok, caught up.
First, I love you snarky bunch. As I was laughing at various posts, I felt a wave of affection for you all.
Second, on the bolded bit above, this made me laugh so hard because DH and I do this all the time regarding his siblings. "Surely they are ashamed to be taking money from your parents and spending it on X." "Surely they will realize that they can't keep going constantly to jam band concerts when they are just coming out of bankruptcy?" "Surely they will stop buying X..."
Surely...
Third, my bet is they will ask for more money September 1. I also bet that BIL will fail his retake of the test. I mean, I hope he doesn't, but IDK, God whispered in my ear...
Post by: avalanchecity on April 05, 2018, 12:20:40 PM
on the one hand, i feel kind of mean for enjoying this whole thing as much as i do -- but on the other, honestly, how can two intelligent, presumably mature adults feel so comfortable betting so much money (that doesn't belong to them!) on something so uncertain at this point? i guess that's where the religious aspect comes in.
Post by: patchyfacialhair on April 05, 2018, 02:34:51 PM
Post by: Boll weevil on April 05, 2018, 04:10:17 PM
Post by: robartsd on April 05, 2018, 04:18:17 PM
I'm thinking the "ask for more money" date will be a holiday or right around one. My guess is Thanksgiving, November 22.Labor day is September 3rd.
Post by: MissNancyPryor on April 05, 2018, 05:03:23 PM
Fair trade chiro tables. Organic linens. Bleach-free business cards.
I will guess that they will be coming up light on cashola right about Memorial Day.
Post by: frugalfoothills on April 11, 2018, 08:40:06 AM
They're currently on vacation for a week with the in-laws, taking a much-deserved break. They'll be back on Saturday, and then they'll be jetting off to TN on Sunday for another week-long vacation (a friend from chiropractic school is opening his practice in TN and they're going for the grand opening.) I'm thinking the first week of his practice opening might give them a look at what the first week(s) of THEIR practice opening might look like, and re-calibrate their expectations a little. I can't imagine people will be busting down the door on day 1. After that, they've got another 2-week vacation planned in June. Gotta get that R&R!
Also unclear about the status of the sister's new "job" with the spin class. Hard to lead spin classes when you're out of state for a month!
Post by: Basenji on April 11, 2018, 08:45:57 AM
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
Post by: avalanchecity on April 11, 2018, 08:50:16 AM
I think they are going to ask for more money well before the opening, because you know, expenses.
Fair trade chiro tables. Organic linens. Bleach-free business cards.
I will guess that they will be coming up light on cashola right about Memorial Day.
i started to laugh at the thought of fair trade chiro tables, and then realized that someone, somewhere (probably on instagram) is probably already making them. what a world.
Post by: Davnasty on April 11, 2018, 12:28:03 PM
I think what we (me, my parents) have realized is that they feel no heartburn about the ridiculous amount of borrowed money because the father-in-law (lender of the cash) feels no heartburn about lending it. I think it's becoming clear to us that there is virtually no risk here for them, because the in-laws will just continue to support them through any disaster that comes their way. BIL fails his boards again? No worries, just float them for another 6 months. Practice opens and not enough cash flow? No worries, just float them until they're in the black. I don't get the feeling that there's any stress from any party. It's all sunshine and rainbows over there.
They're currently on vacation for a week with the in-laws, taking a much-deserved break. They'll be back on Saturday, and then they'll be jetting off to TN on Sunday for another week-long vacation (a friend from chiropractic school is opening his practice in TN and they're going for the grand opening.) I'm thinking the first week of his practice opening might give them a look at what the first week(s) of THEIR practice opening might look like, and re-calibrate their expectations a little. I can't imagine people will be busting down the door on day 1. After that, they've got another 2-week vacation planned in June. Gotta get that R&R!
Also unclear about the status of the sister's new "job" with the spin class. Hard to lead spin classes when you're out of state for a month!
Regardless of the money situation, I don't know if I could take multiple vacations away from not working and enjoy myself. The guilt of seeing my friends and family working full time jobs would be too much. Then again...
Post by: Nederstash on April 13, 2018, 10:13:04 AM
Also unclear about the status of the sister's new "job" with the spin class. Hard to lead spin classes when you're out of state for a month!
God told her not to work, so I guess it's better for her to be on holiday?
Post by: Linea_Norway on April 13, 2018, 10:26:28 AM
Regardless of the money situation, I don't know if I could take multiple vacations away from not working and enjoy myself. The guilt of seeing my friends and family working full time jobs would be too much. Then again...
Then I presume you don't want to FIRE?
We are weird anyway. I feel guilty when I am on an extra vacation, because there is so much to do at work. While the reason that I can take up an extra week of vacation is having a pile of overtime. I can't wait to be FI and do the following RE.
Post by: avalanchecity on April 13, 2018, 10:33:56 AM
Regardless of the money situation, I don't know if I could take multiple vacations away from not working and enjoy myself. The guilt of seeing my friends and family working full time jobs would be too much. Then again...
Then I presume you don't want to FIRE?
i assumed dabnasty meant that they couldn't see taking vacation from not working using someone else's money - if dad is supporting you, not your own job or FI, and you claim you need a vacation to get away from it all...i would have a hard time not feeling guilty about that, too!
edited, because i put the wrong name while typing distractedly
Post by: Davnasty on April 13, 2018, 12:09:26 PM
Regardless of the money situation, I don't know if I could take multiple vacations away from not working and enjoy myself. The guilt of seeing my friends and family working full time jobs would be too much. Then again...
Then I presume you don't want to FIRE?
We are weird anyway. I feel guilty when I am on an extra vacation, because there is so much to do at work. While the reason that I can take up an extra week of vacation is having a pile of overtime. I can't wait to be FI and do the following RE.
I have no idea what I want to do, just gonna see what happens :)
But I did mean vacation as in traveling to a place and staying in a hotel kind of vacation. Plus, even if I FIREd I anticipate "working" on projects that may or may not create income. I did question myself when I wrote this hence the "then again..."
Post by: FIREmydebt on April 13, 2018, 02:59:04 PM
Post by: frugalfoothills on April 25, 2018, 11:39:50 AM
Post by: MarciaB on April 25, 2018, 11:57:20 AM
Post by: frugalfoothills on April 25, 2018, 12:28:22 PM
OMG!! Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...can you tell us the MLM brand?
A makeup called Crunchi, I think? I looked at their website and it actually seems like they offer a pretty nice product with truly clean ingredients (hard to find in cosmetics.) Too bad I won't support an MLM on principle.
Post by: Just Joe on April 25, 2018, 12:40:38 PM
I have things that I'm really enthusiastic about but no public "pontificating" until after the "long term testing". ;)
Post by: Slee_stack on April 25, 2018, 01:30:34 PM
All this idle time was merely part of God's plan! Its miraculous how things work out.
Post by: Beard N Bones on April 25, 2018, 01:45:12 PM
my sister is getting wrapped up in an MLM.
This hurts my head. It makes me angry and nauseous all at the same time.
Go ahead and be financially illiterate and irresponsible - but don't commit financial suicide by getting involved with a MLM.
Why can't people do the math and come to the conclusion that MLMs are not a business to get involved with?
Post by: patchyfacialhair on April 25, 2018, 01:48:09 PM
my sister is getting wrapped up in an MLM.
...
be financially illiterate and...
do the math...
Well there's your problem right there.
Post by: Cezil on April 25, 2018, 01:53:24 PM
Post by: frugalfoothills on April 25, 2018, 02:17:24 PM
my sister is getting wrapped up in an MLM.
This hurts my head. It makes me angry and nauseous all at the same time.
Go ahead and be financially illiterate and irresponsible - but don't commit financial suicide by getting involved with a MLM.
Why can't people do the math and come to the conclusion that MLMs are not a business to get involved with?
Why do the math when hashtags on the internet are telling you you can #beyourownboss #girlboss #beyourownCEO?
I've never understood why these women believe they are the CEO of their own company, while working for a company with an actual CEO. ??????????
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on April 25, 2018, 02:31:39 PM
my sister is getting wrapped up in an MLM.
This hurts my head. It makes me angry and nauseous all at the same time.
Go ahead and be financially illiterate and irresponsible - but don't commit financial suicide by getting involved with a MLM.
Why can't people do the math and come to the conclusion that MLMs are not a business to get involved with?
Why do the math when hashtags on the internet are telling you you can #beyourownboss #girlboss #beyourownCEO?
I've never understood why these women believe they are the CEO of their own company, while working for a company with an actual CEO. ??????????
It's because they have no idea what a CEO actually does. They can spell CEO, so they think that gives them business acumen. Besides, a hashtag is also called a "number sign", so using lots of them makes them think they're good with numbers.
Post by: talltexan on April 26, 2018, 07:20:05 AM
Post by: FI40 on April 26, 2018, 09:03:04 AM
Post by: Tuskalusa on April 26, 2018, 09:28:45 AM
Post by: tomsang on April 26, 2018, 11:36:25 AM
I feel like I have an advantage on the date as I just found this thread and have more info then many when they picked their dates. I am going to throw out July 7th. They are not going to want to beg for money or let the family know that their amazing venture is not going well on July 4th. They will throw some hints to moneybags, but the big discussion is going to occur on Saturday the 7th.
The part that was confusing (most of it because nothing makes sense to a Mustachian mind), was that he has not passed the state test boards. That also explains why he "can't" work. Do you get a sense that he is cracking the books hard? Do you get a sense if the school that they went to sets them up for failure. IE teaching them cray cray beliefs vs. what is on the boards? If the board give an example of someone wanting help for cancer. Will they answer the board certified way that they would refer them or recommend that they go to see an Oncologist or whatever the main stream answer would be or would they fill in the blank to use a healing crystal and a spinal adjustment?
I assume that these folks have no credit or bad credit. Did the landlord require Father In Law to co-sign on the lease? How long are they on the hook? 5 years?
My personality would be to have a sit down with my family member. I would have guilt if I saw this train wreck occurring and just sat their quietly. After airing my concerns, I would not harp on it, but I would personally need to let them know that this is troubling on many fronts.
Thanks for keeping this thread updated. It is very interesting if not a bit disturbing. I hope that they don't lose his parents over this cluster.
Post by: Slee_stack on April 26, 2018, 12:13:48 PM
...they kind of already are living the 'Millionaire' lifestyle today...
vacations.... from leisure...
...a house and (loosely termed) 'work' space...that will open 'someday'...
...a lawnmower to save them all the time they aren't using...
All on someone else's income/savings. Thanks pop!
I wonder if we only got a snippet earlier when the wife mentioned that God told her to just wait....
....for FIL's next check..... perhaps?
Should we call this lifestyle disconnect being a....Millionaide?
Post by: Laura33 on April 26, 2018, 02:24:52 PM
Ok, as a reasonable human being, I do hope they get their shit together and grow up and don’t get taken for a ride more than they already have. But does it make me a bad person to want to enjoy the ride for as long as they continue to ostrich?
Post by: Davnasty on April 26, 2018, 02:36:57 PM
When and if reality hits, I will feel bad for them. Best case scenario - reality will straighten them out and the hole they've dug won't ruin their financial life forever but I do want them to struggle for at least a bit to get back on their feet. Best case scenario seems unlikely though...
Post by: Kay-Ell on April 26, 2018, 04:32:29 PM
"Then she quit her job, and buys everything from yard sales and craigslist! And when I asked what she planned to do if the economy goes belly up, she just shrugged her shoulders and said she guesses she'd have to find a way to earn money! But when she was actually offered another job, did she take it? No, she turned it down saying she didn't think she'd need the money. And bear in mind this person is not a multi-millionaire. Like AT ALL! But somehow she's deluded herself into thinking she can live off of savings and real estate investments, because "frugality!"
Post by: mausmaus on April 26, 2018, 08:39:51 PM
Back in my day, we used to call this # a pound sign... which incidentally gives new meaning to the "me too" movement.
Not cool, man
Post by: Linea_Norway on April 26, 2018, 11:24:53 PM
This is my favorite thread too! And of course it makes us bad people for laughing, but do we care? I like to imagine someone in my family is on another board somewhere talking about my crazy financial decisions, and all of the other forum members think I'm a lunatic.
"Then she quit her job, and buys everything from yard sales and craigslist! And when I asked what she planned to do if the economy goes belly up, she just shrugged her shoulders and said she guesses she'd have to find a way to earn money! But when she was actually offered another job, did she take it? No, she turned it down saying she didn't think she'd need the money. And bear in mind this person is not a multi-millionaire. Like AT ALL! But somehow she's deluded herself into thinking she can live off of savings and real estate investments, because "frugality!"
:-D
That is a very good analogy.
Post by: barbaz on April 27, 2018, 12:16:03 AM
Please tell me this place existsThis is my favorite thread too! And of course it makes us bad people for laughing, but do we care? I like to imagine someone in my family is on another board somewhere talking about my crazy financial decisions, and all of the other forum members think I'm a lunatic.
"Then she quit her job, and buys everything from yard sales and craigslist! And when I asked what she planned to do if the economy goes belly up, she just shrugged her shoulders and said she guesses she'd have to find a way to earn money! But when she was actually offered another job, did she take it? No, she turned it down saying she didn't think she'd need the money. And bear in mind this person is not a multi-millionaire. Like AT ALL! But somehow she's deluded herself into thinking she can live off of savings and real estate investments, because "frugality!"
:-D
That is a very good analogy.
Post by: talltexan on April 27, 2018, 08:07:32 AM
But I just checked zillow today, and they've already got about $40,000 of extra equity. That will pay for a lot of lawn mowers.
Post by: I'm a red panda on April 27, 2018, 08:10:16 AM
Sometimes these things work out. eighteen months ago I was exasperated by my BIL and SIL buying a house that was utterly extravagant and monstrous when compared with their incomes. What was particularly disorienting was my MIL--who'd always criticized my household for spending too much and irresponsibly taking on debt--suddenly seemed to think her son was his generation's Ben Graham for finding a zero percent financing deal on a lawn mower.
But I just checked zillow today, and they've already got about $40,000 of extra equity. That will pay for a lot of lawn mowers.
Equity doesn't pay for anything unless they sell it though.
All it does is mean property taxes are higher.
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on April 27, 2018, 08:49:16 AM
Sometimes these things work out. eighteen months ago I was exasperated by my BIL and SIL buying a house that was utterly extravagant and monstrous when compared with their incomes. What was particularly disorienting was my MIL--who'd always criticized my household for spending too much and irresponsibly taking on debt--suddenly seemed to think her son was his generation's Ben Graham for finding a zero percent financing deal on a lawn mower.
But I just checked zillow today, and they've already got about $40,000 of extra equity. That will pay for a lot of lawn mowers.
Equity doesn't pay for anything unless they sell it though.
All it does is mean property taxes are higher.
Unless of course they refinance to pull some of that equity out. That move was common during the last big housing boom because interest rates were low enough to make people think they could get a better ROI elsewhere. Second mortgages or lines of credit were common. The risk is that if housing values fall the heavily leveraged homeowner will be underwater. Also, there was a problem with appraisers artificially inflating the value of the home for refinancing purposes, which meant that people were borrowing against value that didn't exist.
Post by: bgsnyder on April 27, 2018, 09:45:52 AM
Sometimes these things work out. eighteen months ago I was exasperated by my BIL and SIL buying a house that was utterly extravagant and monstrous when compared with their incomes. What was particularly disorienting was my MIL--who'd always criticized my household for spending too much and irresponsibly taking on debt--suddenly seemed to think her son was his generation's Ben Graham for finding a zero percent financing deal on a lawn mower.
But I just checked zillow today, and they've already got about $40,000 of extra equity. That will pay for a lot of lawn mowers.
Equity doesn't pay for anything unless they sell it though.
All it does is mean property taxes are higher.
Also Zillow is extremely generous with the estimates. My house was up $15K the first year and with a partially finished basement now they went from $145k - $195k
Post by: Petuniajo on April 27, 2018, 10:26:16 AM
This is my favorite thread too! And of course it makes us bad people for laughing, but do we care? I like to imagine someone in my family is on another board somewhere talking about my crazy financial decisions, and all of the other forum members think I'm a lunatic.
"Then she quit her job, and buys everything from yard sales and craigslist! And when I asked what she planned to do if the economy goes belly up, she just shrugged her shoulders and said she guesses she'd have to find a way to earn money! But when she was actually offered another job, did she take it? No, she turned it down saying she didn't think she'd need the money. And bear in mind this person is not a multi-millionaire. Like AT ALL! But somehow she's deluded herself into thinking she can live off of savings and real estate investments, because "frugality!"
I love this so much.
Post by: AMandM on April 27, 2018, 04:18:23 PM
Unless of course they refinance to pull some of that equity out. That move was common during the last big housing boom because interest rates were low enough to make people think they couldget a better ROI elsewherespend more money.
FTFY.
Post by: gerardc on April 27, 2018, 10:39:10 PM
Post by: fredbear on April 28, 2018, 09:44:52 AM
Ms Squeaker, you're being charitable again. I reckon not one in a hundred of the people who ATMed their homes in the last RE bubble did it based on a rational calculation that they could get a better ROI elsewhere./* Nah, they used it for down payments on water lice, road lice, and pervert wagons. (Jet skis, ATVs, winnebagi.) Livin' the dream, with the house an endless fountain of cash to dreckify the perpetual appreciation. Livin' the dream, and learning how a margin cascade works.
Unless of course they refinance to pull some of that equity out. That move was common during the last big housing boom because interest rates were low enough to make people think they could get a better ROI elsewhere.
...
__
/* After all, it was true. They could have. And if they had, they'd still have the house now; their credit rating would gleam with the brilliance of a thousand suns instead of looking like something the septic tank pumper brings up; they' have big chunks of index funds; and financial reporters would be interviewing them about their genius and their stick-to-itiveness.
Post by: Kay-Ell on April 28, 2018, 03:05:44 PM
Ms Squeaker, you're being charitable again. I reckon not one in a hundred of the people who ATMed their homes in the last RE bubble did it based on a rational calculation that they could get a better ROI elsewhere./* Nah, they used it for down payments on water lice, road lice, and pervert wagons. (Jet skis, ATVs, winnebagi.) Livin' the dream, with the house an endless fountain of cash to dreckify the perpetual appreciation. Livin' the dream, and learning how a margin cascade works.
Unless of course they refinance to pull some of that equity out. That move was common during the last big housing boom because interest rates were low enough to make people think they could get a better ROI elsewhere.
...
__
/* After all, it was true. They could have. And if they had, they'd still have the house now; their credit rating would gleam with the brilliance of a thousand suns instead of looking like something the septic tank pumper brings up; they' have big chunks of index funds; and financial reporters would be interviewing them about their genius and their stick-to-itiveness.
I refinanced my house one year after I purchased it to remove PMI and get a lower interest rate. A coworker of mine was also refinancing her house and we struck up anconversation about the paperwork. That’s when she said “don’t you just love refinancing?” I gave her a quizzical look and she continued “every year you just talk to you lender and they tell you how much money your house has made!” This was in 2015. I cringe to think what might happen in the future if every drop of equity is wrung out of their home every year.
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on April 30, 2018, 10:08:33 AM
Ms Squeaker, you're being charitable again. I reckon not one in a hundred of the people who ATMed their homes in the last RE bubble did it based on a rational calculation that they could get a better ROI elsewhere./* Nah, they used it for down payments on water lice, road lice, and pervert wagons. (Jet skis, ATVs, winnebagi.) Livin' the dream, with the house an endless fountain of cash to dreckify the perpetual appreciation. Livin' the dream, and learning how a margin cascade works.
Unless of course they refinance to pull some of that equity out. That move was common during the last big housing boom because interest rates were low enough to make people think they could get a better ROI elsewhere.
...
__
/* After all, it was true. They could have. And if they had, they'd still have the house now; their credit rating would gleam with the brilliance of a thousand suns instead of looking like something the septic tank pumper brings up; they' have big chunks of index funds; and financial reporters would be interviewing them about their genius and their stick-to-itiveness.
I'm trying *so* freaking hard to de-snarkify and be nice.
Should I just stop?
Post by: adamb on April 30, 2018, 11:10:18 AM
The sad thing is, they're going to live better lives than their frugal, responsible counterparts. They're basically acting like they're FIREd already, relaxed, healthy and enjoying life. The only difference is they'll get handouts from their parents, they'll have to pay less for liability if they get sued (because they'll have no savings) and they'll jump straight to medicaid in their old age, instead of slaving away for the "pride" of building their own stash and legacy like most of us do. I wish socialists would understand that it's always what happens when handouts are given.
so a couple directly benefiting from a capitalistic society of free handouts for the failsons of the elites while the rest work for scraps is an indictment of socialism?
I label this post 'Close But No Potato'.
Post by: ScreamingHeadGuy on April 30, 2018, 02:05:36 PM
Please tell me this place existsThis is my favorite thread too! And of course it makes us bad people for laughing, but do we care? I like to imagine someone in my family is on another board somewhere talking about my crazy financial decisions, and all of the other forum members think I'm a lunatic.
"Then she quit her job, and buys everything from yard sales and craigslist! And when I asked what she planned to do if the economy goes belly up, she just shrugged her shoulders and said she guesses she'd have to find a way to earn money! But when she was actually offered another job, did she take it? No, she turned it down saying she didn't think she'd need the money. And bear in mind this person is not a multi-millionaire. Like AT ALL! But somehow she's deluded herself into thinking she can live off of savings and real estate investments, because "frugality!"
:-D
That is a very good analogy.
I want to join that forum and lurk. They would have a "Non-Spendres and Misers' Wall of Comedy" to bitch about folks like us.
Post by: Kay-Ell on April 30, 2018, 10:09:41 PM
Please tell me this place existsThis is my favorite thread too! And of course it makes us bad people for laughing, but do we care? I like to imagine someone in my family is on another board somewhere talking about my crazy financial decisions, and all of the other forum members think I'm a lunatic.
"Then she quit her job, and buys everything from yard sales and craigslist! And when I asked what she planned to do if the economy goes belly up, she just shrugged her shoulders and said she guesses she'd have to find a way to earn money! But when she was actually offered another job, did she take it? No, she turned it down saying she didn't think she'd need the money. And bear in mind this person is not a multi-millionaire. Like AT ALL! But somehow she's deluded herself into thinking she can live off of savings and real estate investments, because "frugality!"
:-D
That is a very good analogy.
I want to join that forum and lurk. They would have a "Non-Spendres and Misers' Wall of Comedy" to bitch about folks like us.
The next best thing would be to create a thread where we all mock ourselves and try to imagine what our spendy-pants friends and relatives would say about us. :-D
Post by: Clookie on May 01, 2018, 05:37:40 AM
Please tell me this place existsThis is my favorite thread too! And of course it makes us bad people for laughing, but do we care? I like to imagine someone in my family is on another board somewhere talking about my crazy financial decisions, and all of the other forum members think I'm a lunatic.
"Then she quit her job, and buys everything from yard sales and craigslist! And when I asked what she planned to do if the economy goes belly up, she just shrugged her shoulders and said she guesses she'd have to find a way to earn money! But when she was actually offered another job, did she take it? No, she turned it down saying she didn't think she'd need the money. And bear in mind this person is not a multi-millionaire. Like AT ALL! But somehow she's deluded herself into thinking she can live off of savings and real estate investments, because "frugality!"
:-D
That is a very good analogy.
I want to join that forum and lurk. They would have a "Non-Spendres and Misers' Wall of Comedy" to bitch about folks like us.
The next best thing would be to create a thread where we all mock ourselves and try to imagine what our spendy-pants friends and relatives would say about us. :-D
That would be awesome
Post by: Laura33 on May 01, 2018, 06:58:39 AM
Ms Squeaker, you're being charitable again. I reckon not one in a hundred of the people who ATMed their homes in the last RE bubble did it based on a rational calculation that they could get a better ROI elsewhere./* Nah, they used it for down payments on water lice, road lice, and pervert wagons. (Jet skis, ATVs, winnebagi.) Livin' the dream, with the house an endless fountain of cash to dreckify the perpetual appreciation. Livin' the dream, and learning how a margin cascade works.
Unless of course they refinance to pull some of that equity out. That move was common during the last big housing boom because interest rates were low enough to make people think they could get a better ROI elsewhere.
...
__
/* After all, it was true. They could have. And if they had, they'd still have the house now; their credit rating would gleam with the brilliance of a thousand suns instead of looking like something the septic tank pumper brings up; they' have big chunks of index funds; and financial reporters would be interviewing them about their genius and their stick-to-itiveness.
I'm trying *so* freaking hard to de-snarkify and be nice.
Should I just stop?
Yes. Your snark skills are too highly refined not to share with the rest of us plebes.
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on May 01, 2018, 08:04:43 AM
Ms Squeaker, you're being charitable again. I reckon not one in a hundred of the people who ATMed their homes in the last RE bubble did it based on a rational calculation that they could get a better ROI elsewhere./* Nah, they used it for down payments on water lice, road lice, and pervert wagons. (Jet skis, ATVs, winnebagi.) Livin' the dream, with the house an endless fountain of cash to dreckify the perpetual appreciation. Livin' the dream, and learning how a margin cascade works.
Unless of course they refinance to pull some of that equity out. That move was common during the last big housing boom because interest rates were low enough to make people think they could get a better ROI elsewhere.
...
__
/* After all, it was true. They could have. And if they had, they'd still have the house now; their credit rating would gleam with the brilliance of a thousand suns instead of looking like something the septic tank pumper brings up; they' have big chunks of index funds; and financial reporters would be interviewing them about their genius and their stick-to-itiveness.
I'm trying *so* freaking hard to de-snarkify and be nice.
Should I just stop?
Yes. Your snark skills are too highly refined not to share with the rest of us plebes.
Whew! That's quite the relief. Now I no longer feel like I'm about to explode from sphincter paralysis.
Post by: Sibley on May 01, 2018, 10:06:13 AM
Ms Squeaker, you're being charitable again. I reckon not one in a hundred of the people who ATMed their homes in the last RE bubble did it based on a rational calculation that they could get a better ROI elsewhere./* Nah, they used it for down payments on water lice, road lice, and pervert wagons. (Jet skis, ATVs, winnebagi.) Livin' the dream, with the house an endless fountain of cash to dreckify the perpetual appreciation. Livin' the dream, and learning how a margin cascade works.
Unless of course they refinance to pull some of that equity out. That move was common during the last big housing boom because interest rates were low enough to make people think they could get a better ROI elsewhere.
...
__
/* After all, it was true. They could have. And if they had, they'd still have the house now; their credit rating would gleam with the brilliance of a thousand suns instead of looking like something the septic tank pumper brings up; they' have big chunks of index funds; and financial reporters would be interviewing them about their genius and their stick-to-itiveness.
I'm trying *so* freaking hard to de-snarkify and be nice.
Should I just stop?
I LOVE your posts.
Post by: RWD on May 01, 2018, 10:10:51 AM
I'm trying *so* freaking hard to de-snarkify and be nice.
Should I just stop?
Yes. Your snark skills are too highly refined not to share with the rest of us plebes.
I LOVE your posts.
Yes, I'd like to third this. Keep the snark coming, @TheGrimSqueaker.
Post by: MrMoogle on May 01, 2018, 10:16:22 AM
My first visit took a while because he did X-rays and had to determine what was going on. But after that, he had appointments every 10 minutes. You'd come in, he'd check you out quickly, then set you up on a machine to warm up your muscles. Then he'd go finish 1 or 2 others, then finish you after you're warm. He was in production mode. I never had to wait long to be seen and after that I was usually out within 10 minutes.
It was just him and a receptionist and they could do 6 per hour. But, I could always get a same day appointment, so I doubt they were doing 6 every hour. Not including first visits.
Do to other things going on I've stopped doing Y, so I've been doing Z, but only sporadically, so I may go back soon before I start Y back up. A good CP was totally worth it for me.
Post by: Kay-Ell on May 01, 2018, 01:57:51 PM
Some of yall have had pretty bad experiences with CPs. I went to one for a while. My first visit he told me I was causing my problem and if I chose to do X, Y, or Z, I wouldn't have to keep coming back, oh and here's how you do X. He helped me get back to a good place and I did Y, so I stopped going back.
My first visit took a while because he did X-rays and had to determine what was going on. But after that, he had appointments every 10 minutes. You'd come in, he'd check you out quickly, then set you up on a machine to warm up your muscles. Then he'd go finish 1 or 2 others, then finish you after you're warm. He was in production mode. I never had to wait long to be seen and after that I was usually out within 10 minutes.
It was just him and a receptionist and they could do 6 per hour. But, I could always get a same day appointment, so I doubt they were doing 6 every hour. Not including first visits.
Do to other things going on I've stopped doing Y, so I've been doing Z, but only sporadically, so I may go back soon before I start Y back up. A good CP was totally worth it for me.
I've also had good experiences with CP's, including ones who ran their office like a production line. Totally fixed my chornic migranes, to the point I'm totally fine and get adjusted a couple times a year if I feel like I need it.
But let's do the math here for a second (on behalf of the soon-to-be-millionairs). To make a million dollars in the first year he would need 6 patients an hour, for 8 hours each day, 365 days per year, charging $60 per visit FROM DAY ONE. He'd even end up with an extra 50k from that business model - which he could use to pay for rent, utilities, insurance, staff, or maybe he could afford to take thanksgiving and chirstmass off. Even if the demand existed, which it does not, he couldn't possible adjust at that pace for a whole year (let alone a whole career).
Post by: dogboyslim on May 02, 2018, 11:32:50 AM
Post by: grandep on May 02, 2018, 04:44:21 PM
Also, props to @frugalfoothills for the riveting storytelling. I can't wait to see how this all unfolds.
Post by: calimom on May 02, 2018, 06:50:16 PM
Your math doesn't include other revenue options beyond adjustments. Its still REALLY unlikely, but there are more revenue options than what you described. Consider the prepaid wellness program...pay up front, includes x adjustments as needed for the family, as well as a supplement regimen, a personal trainer with x #of visits with a few basic machines, some massage folks with n # massages, a nutritionist (who recommends the supplements). Each of these folks you could hire as employees, or work with as referrals, but each could drive revenue.
Exactly. I go to a chiropractor who has done wonders with my back which has been tweaked by schlepping too much heavy stuff around through my work. We have a barter; I met her in a business networking group when we both started our businesses. She has pre-paid plans, wellness plans with some progressive health conscious employers and does some car accident work. She sells Standard Process supplements, along with rollers and health related books and such. In the building she purchased, space is rented for a yoga practice, an acupuncturist and several massage practitioners. Unlike the OP's hapless family members, she worked and hustled and planned for her success, and has a hardworking partner. They didn't just loll about dreaming of fantasy riches.
And agreed: the OP is a wonderful storyteller. The updates are wickedly fun.
Post by: DutchGirl on May 11, 2018, 09:48:56 PM
Post by: kina on May 12, 2018, 01:44:07 PM
Post by: penguintroopers on May 13, 2018, 07:27:26 AM
Post by: TexasStash on May 13, 2018, 08:27:02 AM
The sad thing is, they're going to live better lives than their frugal, responsible counterparts. They're basically acting like they're FIREd already, relaxed, healthy and enjoying life. The only difference is they'll get handouts from their parents, they'll have to pay less for liability if they get sued (because they'll have no savings) and they'll jump straight to medicaid in their old age, instead of slaving away for the "pride" of building their own stash and legacy like most of us do. I wish socialists would understand that it's always what happens when handouts are given.
so a couple directly benefiting from a capitalistic society of free handouts for the failsons of the elites while the rest work for scraps is an indictment of socialism?
I label this post 'Close But No Potato'.
I'm not trying to assign blame here on either system, but you have a very different definition of capitalism than I do.
Post by: talltexan on May 14, 2018, 08:42:41 AM
Post by: AlanStache on May 14, 2018, 10:07:03 AM
Post by: Hirondelle on May 14, 2018, 01:41:19 PM
Post by: mousebandit on May 14, 2018, 01:47:59 PM
Post by: Kierun on May 14, 2018, 02:18:41 PM
I'm so sad when everytime I see a new post in this topic it isn't an update on the millionaires :(I know right!
Post by: elementz_m on May 14, 2018, 02:59:54 PM
I'm so sad when everytime I see a new post in this topic it isn't an update on the millionaires :(
Just posting to disappoint you further, sorry. I feel the exact same way, and have been checking the latest post's author recently to avoid disappointment.
Post by: SeaWA on May 17, 2018, 08:56:09 AM
Post by: ducky19 on May 17, 2018, 01:43:41 PM
Post by: Davnasty on May 17, 2018, 02:40:15 PM
GAAAAH!!! Ya'll are killing me!!!
Oh the irony!
Also, I'm so sorry.
Post by: YttriumNitrate on May 17, 2018, 04:24:15 PM
Quote
Mar 15, 2018 lhamo
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 4, 2018 Miss Piggy
July 6, 2018 nick663
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
July 28,2018 penguintroopers
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Sept 29, 2018 Nederstash
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Well, it looks like lhamo, babybug, expnss, neverrun, and kina (if we are using Price is Right rules) will not be getting those coveted 10 Internet Points, but you do get a participation trophy!
(http://www.mariadewaik.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/trophy-Copy.jpg)
Post by: MrMoogle on May 18, 2018, 07:41:46 AM
Post by: patchyfacialhair on May 18, 2018, 08:28:14 AM
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 11, 2018 Primm
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 4, 2018 Miss Piggy
July 6, 2018 nick663
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
July 28,2018 penguintroopers
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Sept 1, 2018 Patchyfacialhair
Sept 29, 2018 Nederstash
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Post by: tomsang on May 18, 2018, 09:32:07 AM
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 11, 2018 Primm
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 4, 2018 Miss Piggy
July 6, 2018 nick663
July 7, 2018 tomsang
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
July 28,2018 penguintroopers
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Sept 1, 2018 Patchyfacialhair
Sept 29, 2018 Nederstash
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Post by: greengardens on May 18, 2018, 01:21:25 PM
Post by: iris lily on May 18, 2018, 06:27:03 PM
I am not so sure.
I have known elderly parents who finance their progeny’s lives, as we all have, but ones that talk about “my son the Doctor” with a shine of wonder in their eyes. Having a”doctor” in their family is a huge dream. It is a Big Giant Assed Deal. They are not about to face rwality that their “doctor” son is not really that let alone not financially stable.
Post by: Sibley on May 19, 2018, 08:56:16 AM
The thing is, you people seem to think that Mr. Future Chiro Millionaire’s parents will actually, someday, stop the money train.
I am not so sure.
I have known elderly parents who finance their progeny’s lives, as we all have, but ones that talk about “my son the Doctor” with a shine of wonder in their eyes. Having a”doctor” in their family is a huge dream. It is a Big Giant Assed Deal. They are not about to face rwality that their “doctor” son is not really that let alone not financially stable.
You are correct. However, in that case, the real crash will come when the parents either exhaust their assets or pass away. Even if there's significant inheritance, given that lifestyle will most likely expand to fit available assets once there isn't any more money coming is when the drama (meltdown) would really start.
Post by: Pylortes on May 19, 2018, 07:58:30 PM
Updated list (add your name if you want)Mar 15, 2018 lhamo
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 11, 2018 Primm
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 4, 2018 Miss Piggy
July 6, 2018 nick663
July 7, 2018 tomsang
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
July 28,2018 penguintroopers
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
Sept 1, 2018 Patchyfacialhair
Sept 2, 2018 Pylortes
Sept 29, 2018 Nederstash
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
The list had been missing me for some reason, I’ve had Labor Day weekend down for awhile. Good luck to all!
Post by: SwordGuy on May 19, 2018, 08:26:26 PM
Ms Squeaker, you're being charitable again. I reckon not one in a hundred of the people who ATMed their homes in the last RE bubble did it based on a rational calculation that they could get a better ROI elsewhere./* Nah, they used it for down payments on water lice, road lice, and pervert wagons. (Jet skis, ATVs, winnebagi.) Livin' the dream, with the house an endless fountain of cash to dreckify the perpetual appreciation. Livin' the dream, and learning how a margin cascade works.
Unless of course they refinance to pull some of that equity out. That move was common during the last big housing boom because interest rates were low enough to make people think they could get a better ROI elsewhere.
...
__
/* After all, it was true. They could have. And if they had, they'd still have the house now; their credit rating would gleam with the brilliance of a thousand suns instead of looking like something the septic tank pumper brings up; they' have big chunks of index funds; and financial reporters would be interviewing them about their genius and their stick-to-itiveness.
I'm trying *so* freaking hard to de-snarkify and be nice.
Should I just stop?
If I were single, I would have crossed the country to date you, sight unseen, just because of your awesome snarkiness.
Please don't ever change that. It would be a waste of an Olympic gold medal winner talent.
Post by: iluvzbeach on June 06, 2018, 08:20:31 AM
Sorry folks, not an update from OP.
@frugalfoothills Anything new to report in the land of the Future Millionaires?
Post by: FrugalFisherman10 on June 06, 2018, 03:20:30 PM
I love this thread. It gives me life.I lol'd at this
At my desk at work.
Post by: Zamboni on June 07, 2018, 09:49:53 PM
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 11, 2018 Primm
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
May 28, 2018 MissNancyPryor
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 4, 2018 Miss Piggy
July 6, 2018 nick663
July 7, 2018 (a Saturday) tomsang
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
July 28,2018 penguintroopers
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway, MSquared
Sept 1, 2018 Basenji, patchyfacialhair
Sept 2, 2018 Pylortes
Sept 3, 2018 robartsd
Sept 15, 2018 avalanchecity
Sept 29, 2018 Nederstash
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Nov 22, 2018 Boll weevil
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
This is indeed the thread that just keeps on giving.
Post by: frugalecon on June 08, 2018, 06:23:34 PM
PTF
Sorry folks, not an update from OP.
@frugalfoothills Anything new to report in the land of the Future Millionaires?
I suppose it is possible this post was an elaborate troll. Is anyone as ridiculous as the object of the original post?
Post by: SwordGuy on June 08, 2018, 07:34:57 PM
PTF
Sorry folks, not an update from OP.
@frugalfoothills Anything new to report in the land of the Future Millionaires?
I suppose it is possible this post was an elaborate troll. Is anyone as ridiculous as the object of the original post?
Oh, yes. Absolutely.
Post by: Kay-Ell on June 11, 2018, 01:18:19 PM
I'm so sad when everytime I see a new post in this topic it isn't an update on the millionaires :(I know right!
My soul lights up every time I see new activity in this thread, only to be disappointed when it's not another juicy update. Why has the internet failed me yet again?
Post by: jinga nation on June 11, 2018, 03:48:26 PM
Post by: AlanStache on June 11, 2018, 07:36:50 PM
Nah, methinks she's been found out by the faffing family members.
Maybe the OP could restart the blog somewhere more private and invite us via PM? :-) I hope!
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on June 11, 2018, 11:27:39 PM
Post by: Clookie on June 12, 2018, 06:07:22 AM
The licensing re-test should be occurring any day now, if it hasn't already. But the millionaire-to-be may have been off gallivanting in TN or messing with a riding lawn mower instead of studying. Is there a way to bet that he failed the retest and that there's not going to be any grand opening?
Maybe everybody here is wrong and the millionaire-to-be is already a millionaire. That would explain a lot.
Post by: Davnasty on June 12, 2018, 06:24:34 AM
The licensing re-test should be occurring any day now, if it hasn't already. But the millionaire-to-be may have been off gallivanting in TN or messing with a riding lawn mower instead of studying. Is there a way to bet that he failed the retest and that there's not going to be any grand opening?
Maybe everybody here is wrong and the millionaire-to-be is already a millionaire. That would explain a lot.
Maybe they won the lottery.
Post by: talltexan on June 12, 2018, 08:47:29 AM
Post by: marty998 on June 27, 2018, 04:01:58 AM
@frugalfoothills - what's going on?
Post by: frugalfoothills on July 09, 2018, 12:23:15 PM
I got a text on Friday morning... BIL passed his boards! My dad's reply had me rolling... "Congrats! Never had any doubt he would!" LOL. Literally had ALL the doubts.
This is GREAT news because it means they can actually open this month. Ribbon-cutting is set for the end of July (my birthday, actually... HBD to me) and then they'll be in business.
I've been proud of my sister... she's been responsible for all of the decorating and stuff in the office space. It's finally complete and I know she tried to spend as little money as possible (i.e., spending no more than $20/chair on waiting room chairs, using inexpensive cedar shakes to create a decorative wall, etc.) We were all pleased to discover that they DO in fact possess SOME modicum of common sense when it comes to spending money... refreshing, but doesn't really change the reality of their situation, which is that they have still spent a shit ton of money (and have yet to earn a dollar) regardless of how cheap their chairs were.
They have been working hard by going around and giving "health talks" at corporate offices, festivals, etc. and trying to get folks signed up for care plans by telling them they'll be crippled or have cancer if they decline. You, too, can have (guaranteed?) good health for the small cost of $1,500 per year. Ironically, I threw my back out last month unloading a Craigslist desk that I bought and flipped for some extra cash, and got berated by my sis for not being on a care plan. "$1,500 per year is very inexpensive. It's an investment in your future, by spending that money you are going to have less pain, better digestion, better overall health and immunity." I pointed out that I can spend that $1,500 investing in my future by putting it in the market where there is actual data to back up the return on my investment vs. this text message from her guaranteeing my healthy future, just because she says so. We decided to agree to disagree, there.
In all seriousness, I worry that some here on this thread feel that I'm anti-chiropractor based on my posts. That's not the case at all! I'm a long-time sufferer of back pain (thanks to some old soccer injuries) and see a chiropractor semi-regularly (as needed when my back issues flare up.) What I'm NOT a fan of is this program that my BIL did, which basically taught him how to swindle folks into spending $1,500 on a care plan which they disingenuously (in my opinion) preach will cure every physical ailment on earth. I have benefitted directly from chiropractic care, but I don't appreciate the tactics being used here.
Oh, as for the MLM... thankfully my sister seems to be too busy helping my BIL with the health talks to have gotten herself any deeper into that. She did help "host" a "workshop" on Facebook for a week where they talked about how buying this makeup would be every woman's saving grace, but that was back in May and I've seen nothing else after that THANK GOD. That's the last thing they needed.
To date: zero spin classes have been taught.
I'll try to update more frequently now that things are picking up and the business is actually opening this month! I am concerned that they'll have a great first few weeks (they have set up 200 or so appointments according to my mom) but that the traffic will die off after that. Who am I kidding... I'm sure business will be booming and I'll be back here eating my words come next year when they're not only millionaires, but BILLIONAIRES!
Post by: patchyfacialhair on July 09, 2018, 12:29:39 PM
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 11, 2018 Primm
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
May 28, 2018 MissNancyPryor
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 4, 2018 Miss Piggy
July 6, 2018 nick663
July 7, 2018 (a Saturday) tomsang
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
July 28,2018 penguintroopers
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway, MSquared
Sept 1, 2018 Basenji, patchyfacialhair
Sept 2, 2018 Pylortes
Sept 3, 2018 robartsd
Sept 15, 2018 avalanchecity
Sept 29, 2018 Nederstash
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Nov 22, 2018 Boll weevil
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Thanks, OP! Keep the updates coming!
Post by: ysette9 on July 09, 2018, 12:51:45 PM
Sorry in advance if this is a silly question, but what is up with this running log?Mar 15, 2018 lhamo
Apr 1, 2018 babybug
Apr 11, 2018 Primm
Apr 15, 2018 expnss
May 1, 2018 neverrun
May 13, 2018 kina
May 28, 2018 MissNancyPryor
June 4, 2018 Beard N Bones (Dependence Day)
July 1, 2018 Finances_With_Purpose, partygypsy
July 4, 2018 Miss Piggy
July 6, 2018 nick663
July 7, 2018 (a Saturday) tomsang
July 15, 2018 Sibley, Roe
July 28,2018 penguintroopers
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway, MSquared
Sept 1, 2018 Basenji, patchyfacialhair
Sept 2, 2018 Pylortes
Sept 3, 2018 robartsd
Sept 15, 2018 avalanchecity
Sept 29, 2018 Nederstash
Nov 15, 2018 Zamboni
Nov 22, 2018 Boll weevil
Jan 15, 2019 Yt(NO3)3
Thanks, OP! Keep the updates coming!
Post by: patchyfacialhair on July 09, 2018, 12:56:26 PM
We're keeping the running list for a sense of pride and accomplishment of something that will never impact our lives, but makes us happy as posters on the Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy.
Post by: ysette9 on July 09, 2018, 01:03:49 PM
People are running bets on when the Soon-To-Be-Millionaire-Family-Members are going to run out of money, therefore asking family/parents for money.Aaahhh, that makes sense now. Thanks! I must have missed that earlier in the thread.
We're keeping the running list for a sense of pride and accomplishment of something that will never impact our lives, but makes us happy as posters on the Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy.
Let’s see, I’ll put my guess out at March 2019. What does the winner get, aside from bragging rights? :)
Post by: Linea_Norway on July 09, 2018, 01:06:23 PM
The fact that sister is now being sort of frugal might also mean that they have spent most of the loan and can't afford more...
Post by: frugalfoothills on July 09, 2018, 01:31:08 PM
Things are looking prosperous in the last update. So I think my guess for 15th of august was too pessimistic. They might just survive that date and ask for money later.
The fact that sister is now being sort of frugal might also mean that they have spent most of the loan and can't afford more...
I had this thought, too. Not sure how much they've actually spent but I have to think reality will start to set in at SOME point. Maybe we're there?
Post by: AlanStache on July 09, 2018, 01:32:34 PM
yes and no, could be the realization that 50 chairs x 150$ is a lot of money especially right after paying the contractors, electrician, vendors, utility deposits, rent... Seeing a lot of money go out the door within a small period of time can be hard even if there is a good bit of the loan left. I have seen new entrepreneurs get overly cheap when setting up the place of business. If sister changes her personal spending habits that might be a better indicator of what remains of the loan.
Post by: Raymond Reddington on July 09, 2018, 02:24:35 PM
I hope to win an epic prize if I'm right, such as a photo of the office!
Post by: partgypsy on July 09, 2018, 03:19:21 PM
Post by: tomsang on July 09, 2018, 03:21:21 PM
I got a text on Friday morning... BIL passed his boards! My dad's reply had me rolling... "Congrats! Never had any doubt he would!"
Are were sure that the next text to Father-In-Law wasn't, "I might need xxx dollars to get this money machine fully up and operating"?
Post by: Dicey on July 10, 2018, 04:41:24 AM
Post by: robartsd on July 13, 2018, 03:10:27 PM
"$1,500 per year is very inexpensive."Inexpensive compared to what? I'm a monthly cash patient at my chiropractor and spend quite a bit less than $1500/yr.
200 appointments - if those are all separate individuals, and the can convince half of them that the $1500/yr plan is worthwhile they'll have a $150,000 revenue stream. They might make it without more cash inflow from the bank of dad.
Post by: Cassie on July 13, 2018, 11:15:22 PM
Post by: eljefe-speaks on July 16, 2018, 10:48:14 AM
People are running bets on when the Soon-To-Be-Millionaire-Family-Members are going to run out of money, therefore asking family/parents for money.Aaahhh, that makes sense now. Thanks! I must have missed that earlier in the thread.
We're keeping the running list for a sense of pride and accomplishment of something that will never impact our lives, but makes us happy as posters on the Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy.
Let’s see, I’ll put my guess out at March 2019. What does the winner get, aside from bragging rights? :)
If I recall correctly, and being too lazy to search this out in the thread, I think the winner gets 1 Internet Point.
Post by: talltexan on July 16, 2018, 11:46:50 AM
Post by: elementz_m on July 16, 2018, 03:47:08 PM
How about we give the winner all the internet points?
I think that would devalue the Internet points, and I'm so heavily invested in them it would ruin my FIRE plans.
Really should have diversified with some of those Real Life points...
Post by: barbaz on July 18, 2018, 12:47:29 AM
How about we give theI know what you mean. I have a passive income of ~100 reputation per month on stackoverflow, but is that really enough to retire on?
I think that would devalue the Internet points, and I'm so heavily invested in them it would ruin my FIRE plans.
Really should have diversified with some of those Real Life points...
Post by: ysette9 on July 18, 2018, 07:05:23 AM
How about we give the winner all the internet points?Is that like winning the internet?
Post by: robartsd on July 18, 2018, 01:47:26 PM
I know what you mean. I have a passive income of ~100 reputation per month on stackoverflow, but is that really enough to retire on?That's about 10x my passive income on stackoverflow.
Post by: frugalfoothills on July 19, 2018, 08:57:18 AM
I guess this means that the Millionaires are officially up & running as of today! I'll keep updates coming as business ramps up (or down?)
Post by: ysette9 on July 19, 2018, 01:06:55 PM
Post by: frugalfoothills on July 20, 2018, 12:24:35 PM
Today is the ribbon cutting for the Millionaires! There are 2 ceremonies today, and then a "friends & family" ceremony on Saturday that I'll be attending. Throwing a 30th birthday party for a close friend Friday night at my house, so I'm sure I'll be bright eyed and bushy tailed for the big reveal.
I guess this means that the Millionaires are officially up & running as of today! I'll keep updates coming as business ramps up (or down?)
Why two ceremonies - actually three?
I found this weird, too... they had one yesterday morning for the Chamber of Commerce for the next town over, and a business networking group they have been part of. Then yesterday afternoon for THEIR Chamber of Commerce, plus a Young Professionals group. Then Saturday for "friends & family."
Not sure why you wouldn't just do one big ribbon cutting and knock it all out at once...? I don't know, I've never opened a business.
Post by: patchyfacialhair on July 20, 2018, 12:44:58 PM
As opposed to a big old hootenanny where people stay for 2 minutes and leave because there's too many people.
Post by: iris lily on July 21, 2018, 12:48:24 PM
I think it's a good idea. Target the sales pitches to smaller groups, adjusting the pitch slightly based on the audience, hopefully yielding a better result.
As opposed to a big old hootenanny where people stay for 2 minutes and leave because there's too many people.
Also, timing i i portant. Multiple, eremonies can be targeted to whenever the targte group can attend.
Not sure I wojld worry about too many people at this event. :)
Post by: frugalfoothills on August 09, 2018, 03:13:46 PM
In some non-Mustachian news, the Millionaires got a new car! A 2014 Tahoe, to be exact. Bought and paid for by Financier in Chief, my BIL's father. What has become abundantly clear throughout this ordeal is that the Millionaire's business venture WILL succeed, deserved or not, because FIL will bail them out regardless. They are essentially the Wells Fargo of small-town chiropractic care... Too Privileged To Fail.
If I sound jealous, it's because I am!
Post by: K-ice on August 09, 2018, 03:22:48 PM
Although we were all kind of waiting to get our dose of "Schadenfreude".
(a German word for "pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.")
Having successful family members is better than needy ones.
Post by: patchyfacialhair on August 09, 2018, 03:28:18 PM
If the former...
Aug 1, 2018 Apple_Tango, ShoulderThingThatGoesUp
August 9th (TAHOE PURCHASE DATE)
Aug 15, 2018 Linda_Norway
@Apple_Tango and @ShoulderThingThatGoesUp tie for the win...
Post by: YttriumNitrate on August 09, 2018, 08:20:06 PM
So is the contest over since BILs father bought the massive unnecessary SUV? Or are we waiting for an indication that they've actually asked him for money?It certainly does seem that the BIL asked for a giant SUV (because chiropractic stuff and all), so...
(https://i.imgflip.com/2flz86.jpg)
EDIT: After official video review, the ruling on the field is overturned....repeat third down.
Post by: ysette9 on August 09, 2018, 09:08:50 PM
Post by: partgypsy on August 09, 2018, 09:17:32 PM
Post by: Davnasty on August 10, 2018, 06:24:34 AM
Good for them!
Although we were all kind of waiting to get our dose of "Schadenfreude".
(a German word for "pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.")
Having successful family members is better than needy ones.
That was my thought for a brief moment until I remembered their business model is taking advantage of ignorant people. Even if they are true believers in their method, people aren't getting the panacea they've been told they're getting.
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on August 10, 2018, 08:59:49 AM
Post by: FIRE@50 on August 10, 2018, 09:05:15 AM
Internet Points! Woohoo!Have you decided which index fund to invest all of those points in?
Post by: talltexan on August 10, 2018, 09:10:11 AM
- Foot Traffic is high for this business now. Is there evidence of growth, or could this be a one-time surge?
- They're still pretty leveraged to FIL. Can they survive a downturn? How does the area seem to be doing economically?
- My MIL bought my BIL a new car seven years ago. She claimed it was the equivalent of the money she spent on my wife's and my wedding. She has been pretty generous with our HH over the years, so I probably don't want to start complaining. Do BIL and SIL have kids? If you don't have kids, the Tahoe is...to what purpose exactly?
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on August 10, 2018, 09:26:52 AM
Internet Points! Woohoo!Have you decided which index fund to invest all of those points in?
SCHE; the Internet still has a lot of productivity growth to add in emerging markets.
Post by: patchyfacialhair on August 10, 2018, 09:28:02 AM
Post by: frugalfoothills on August 10, 2018, 02:06:04 PM
A couple of questions:
- Foot Traffic is high for this business now. Is there evidence of growth, or could this be a one-time surge?
- They're still pretty leveraged to FIL. Can they survive a downturn? How does the area seem to be doing economically?
- My MIL bought my BIL a new car seven years ago. She claimed it was the equivalent of the money she spent on my wife's and my wedding. She has been pretty generous with our HH over the years, so I probably don't want to start complaining. Do BIL and SIL have kids? If you don't have kids, the Tahoe is...to what purpose exactly?
1. No clue, I have to think at least some of it is a one-time surge. They offered introductory appointments ("assessments") at a super discounted price in the hopes of getting people in the door, and I think that was very successful. Interested to hear what the conversion rates are.
2. They can survive downturn because FIL will bail them out. Area is good economically & growing, though their exactly location IN that area baffles me a bit...
3. No kids yet but they DEFINITELY plan on having them. Like, lots of them. My sister loves kids... that's what the Currently Wasted Masters Degree was for, actually. I expect they will be pregnant sooner rather than later, honestly. I'm fine with that... I don't really want kids of my own, so I'm VERY much looking forward to being an aunt!
I'm going to call my sis this weekend and hopefully get an update on things.
Post by: patchyfacialhair on August 10, 2018, 02:22:31 PM
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on August 10, 2018, 08:28:47 PM
Post by: Miss Piggy on August 11, 2018, 10:51:12 AM
My internet points broker is going to be pi-issed.
I don't even know how you recover from something like this.
Post by: iris lily on August 12, 2018, 11:26:08 AM
This, and this thread update, is a scream!My internet points broker is going to be pi-issed.
I don't even know how you recover from something like this.
Post by: Linea_Norway on August 13, 2018, 05:20:06 AM
The league commissioner has spoken. The contest is back open!
Darn it!
Post by: jinga nation on August 14, 2018, 10:41:56 AM
Post by: Just Joe on August 14, 2018, 05:47:22 PM
Post by: AlanStache on August 14, 2018, 07:36:11 PM
I have never understood the need for small business people to have flashy cars; like why would I as a customer want to see what I am paying for? But society at large tells me I look at things wrongly; meh.
Post by: Apple_Tango on August 14, 2018, 10:05:33 PM
Post by: talltexan on August 15, 2018, 07:26:07 AM
Congrats... I guess!
I have never understood the need for small business people to have flashy cars; like why would I as a customer want to see what I am paying for? But society at large tells me I look at things wrongly; meh.
I spent about $2,400 to receive sales coaching during my time in Cincinnati. My coach--who maintained that he'd built several businesses in insurance and boat dealing--drove an old honda accord. It never occurred to me to inquire whether this was a business thing (did he do it to minimize the costs of work-related driving?) or to try to figure out whether he wasn't as wealthy as he maintained he was. I imagine many people who try to sell you ideas that will bring you wealth wish to look wealthy themselves. This one did the opposite of that.
But a lot of people on this forum drive old, beat-up cars despite great wealth.
Post by: robartsd on August 15, 2018, 09:36:41 AM
I have never understood the need for small business people to have flashy cars; like why would I as a customer want to see what I am paying for? But society at large tells me I look at things wrongly; meh.I think that the appearance of wealth subconsciously validates someone's decision to purchase - if they have that much wealth, it must be because so many other people found that they provide great value. Only after stepping back and thinking rationally about the situation do you realize that the appearance of wealth provides you no information about the value being provided.
Post by: Linea_Norway on August 16, 2018, 12:58:16 AM
I have never understood the need for small business people to have flashy cars; like why would I as a customer want to see what I am paying for? But society at large tells me I look at things wrongly; meh.I think that the appearance of wealth subconsciously validates someone's decision to purchase - if they have that much wealth, it must be because so many other people found that they provide great value. Only after stepping back and thinking rationally about the situation do you realize that the appearance of wealth provides you no information about the value being provided.
Maybe it is for the same reasons that people are sceptic to specialists with a cheap hourly rate.
Post by: marty998 on August 16, 2018, 07:30:26 AM
I have never understood the need for small business people to have flashy cars; like why would I as a customer want to see what I am paying for? But society at large tells me I look at things wrongly; meh.I think that the appearance of wealth subconsciously validates someone's decision to purchase - if they have that much wealth, it must be because so many other people found that they provide great value. Only after stepping back and thinking rationally about the situation do you realize that the appearance of wealth provides you no information about the value being provided.
Maybe it is for the same reasons that people are sceptic to specialists with a cheap hourly rate.
It's for the tax write off.
These same business people don't understand that they don't get it all back on tax, only their marginal rate.
Post by: talltexan on August 16, 2018, 08:26:41 AM
Post by: Tuskalusa on August 16, 2018, 08:32:10 AM
Post by: YttriumNitrate on August 16, 2018, 11:08:42 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4531184,-86.9205372,3a,41y,314.48h,85.18t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJH4mLlMhMTFMO9QEloL_-A!2e0!5s20070901T000000!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4531184,-86.9205372,3a,41y,314.48h,85.18t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJH4mLlMhMTFMO9QEloL_-A!2e0!5s20070901T000000!7i13312!8i6656)
Post by: Just Joe on August 17, 2018, 09:27:16 AM
More than few times in my years shabby appearances have led to other short comings. Not always but enough.
I don't assume the guy with gold plated plumbing is anything special though. He's likely just expensive and certainly has different priorities than me.
I like our dentist. Clean office. The dentist and his staff drive ordinary vehicles. Everything is neat and orderly. Service is good.
Post by: ixtap on August 17, 2018, 09:50:18 AM
I once visited a small town dentist whose operation was shabby. Not frugal but shabby. We did not return. The Frank Burns of dentistry.
More than few times in my years shabby appearances have led to other short comings. Not always but enough.
I don't assume the guy with gold plated plumbing is anything special though. He's likely just expensive and certainly has different priorities than me.
I like our dentist. Clean office. The dentist and his staff drive ordinary vehicles. Everything is neat and orderly. Service is good.
Yes, but what about your dentist's car? I happen to know mine owns a big SUV because I seem to make appointments after lunch and get to watch her come back from lunch while I am getting my teeth cleaned.
Post by: greengardens on August 17, 2018, 10:01:55 AM
Post by: Loren Ver on August 17, 2018, 05:36:42 PM
I worked in a law office and heard more than one client complain that a couple of the lawyers “must not be very good” because they drove older, somewhat beat up cars. I’ve also heard people say they wouldn’t use a certain realtor because they didn’t drive a nice car.
If they are (maybe subconsciously) looking for someone that values the same thing as them. If they value the bling, then this isn't a bad thing. Much like many of us valuing the opposite. Driving a beater could mean you can't manage to afford something nicer (or the messy divorce let you with nothing but scrap) but we like to think it is because frugal.... Still another assumption.
LV
Post by: Just Joe on August 20, 2018, 09:11:12 AM
In my universe anyone that is decently talented and thoughtful about their life ought to be able to afford a clean office, decent tools, a reasonable vehicle - and be motivated to maintain at least that standard of equipment and reinvestment into his/her business. If the guy/gal arrived (in our town) driving a Ferrari my gut feeling was that he was too expensive, heavily into debt or spends 35 seconds with each patient.
Unless I lived in Beverly Hills or Miami Beach - which I definitely don't.
I once worked for an employer who took every nickel they could out of the business. No reinvestment. Did not value the employees. From my POV did not seem to value the customers either beyond the cash flow they represented. The job served me well for the time I worked it but I would never want to do business with them. They by the way are out of business b/c the customers weren't valued either. Turns out that there was alot of spendy pants behavior and a drug addiction involved behind the scenes by the proprietor.
I can appreciate a clean, well kept budget used car/office/wardrobe/equipment. When a business lets their "don't give a flip" show I'm out.
Post by: Mesmoiselle on August 20, 2018, 09:24:06 PM
withdrawing a $500 loan at 7%?? interest to invest in the stock market.
I vehemently denied making such a suggestion, I promise such words would never have come out of my mouth. Told him such, and he just implied I was pissing on his parade.
v-v
Post by: ysette9 on August 20, 2018, 10:07:32 PM
Post by: Linea_Norway on August 21, 2018, 12:03:54 AM
My brother credited me with this great idea two days back.
withdrawing a $500 loan at 7%?? interest to invest in the stock market.
I vehemently denied making such a suggestion, I promise such words would never have come out of my mouth. Told him such, and he just implied I was pissing on his parade.
v-v
Maybe you once mentioned not paying down your mortgage and investing in the stock market? Your brother might think loan = loan.
Post by: talltexan on August 21, 2018, 07:42:22 AM
Post by: Mesmoiselle on August 21, 2018, 12:01:19 PM
What is your brother's source for the 7% loan? It's too small to be something like a HELOC, but it's not a great match for the best credit card teaser rates that are out there.
He's gotten into these Apps that reward you for buying things. I actually tried one, Drop, and have gotten two free Starbucks coffees this way while not changing my spending habits at all. I'll ask him the name of it, but it's some sort of micro loan app that helps you build your credit. When I told my husband this story, he mentioned that investing the money may be against the TOU of the micro loan.
Post by: frugalfoothills on August 22, 2018, 10:38:24 AM
Monday: 10am-1pm, 3pm-6pm
Tuesday: 3pm-6pm
Wednesday: 8am-1pm
Thursday: 10am-1pm, 3pm-6pm
Friday: CLOSED
Saturday: CLOSED
Sunday: CLOSED
If you did the math like I did, that is a 20 hour work week. I texted my sister and basically said the fuck is with these office hours!? She explained that sometimes on those (less than) half days, they will be doing "health talks" to try to get new customers to sign up, so technically they'll still be working. They will be "cramming as many people as possible" into small office time slots "so that we aren't working 12 hours a day." Working 12 hours a day!?!?! There's not a day on that schedule that even hits the standard 8!!
I have to think the "Health Talk" time would be better spent in the office treating actual, paying patients, but what do I know.
Post by: iris lily on August 22, 2018, 11:01:56 AM
Y'all, the Millionaires (after being relatively low-key for a while during the office opening, minus the whole Tahoe situation) have blown my mind yet again. I got on Facebook last night and there was a notification that "Millionaire's Chiropractic Office has updated their office hours!" so I went to take a peek. Get a load of this!Score! Great update.
Monday: 10am-1pm, 3pm-6pm
Tuesday: 3pm-6pm
Wednesday: 8am-1pm
Thursday: 10am-1pm, 3pm-6pm
Friday: CLOSED
Saturday: CLOSED
Sunday: CLOSED
If you did the math like I did, that is a 20 hour work week. I texted my sister and basically said the fuck is with these office hours!? She explained that sometimes on those (less than) half days, they will be doing "health talks" to try to get new customers to sign up, so technically they'll still be working. They will be "cramming as many people as possible" into small office time slots "so that we aren't working 12 hours a day." Working 12 hours a day!?!?! There's not a day on that schedule that even hits the standard 8!!
I have to think the "Health Talk" time would be better spent in the office treating actual, paying patients, but what do I know.
Post by: boarder42 on August 22, 2018, 11:03:56 AM
Y'all, the Millionaires (after being relatively low-key for a while during the office opening, minus the whole Tahoe situation) have blown my mind yet again. I got on Facebook last night and there was a notification that "Millionaire's Chiropractic Office has updated their office hours!" so I went to take a peek. Get a load of this!
Monday: 10am-1pm, 3pm-6pm
Tuesday: 3pm-6pm
Wednesday: 8am-1pm
Thursday: 10am-1pm, 3pm-6pm
Friday: CLOSED
Saturday: CLOSED
Sunday: CLOSED
If you did the math like I did, that is a 20 hour work week. I texted my sister and basically said the fuck is with these office hours!? She explained that sometimes on those (less than) half days, they will be doing "health talks" to try to get new customers to sign up, so technically they'll still be working. They will be "cramming as many people as possible" into small office time slots "so that we aren't working 12 hours a day." Working 12 hours a day!?!?! There's not a day on that schedule that even hits the standard 8!!
I have to think the "Health Talk" time would be better spent in the office treating actual, paying patients, but what do I know.
keeping hours like this makes them selective and high end. You have to really try and plan to get in here. Just like when facebook was exclusive to college kids. They are creating an exclusive environment where they can charge more for their services. Also if they are selling these annual plans then making the times you can actually use it limited while signing up more people to the plans seems like a great way to build a huge business of doing nothing but collecting cash.
You know until people realize its not usable and they dont need a plan. so they'll make killing this year
Post by: MarciaB on August 22, 2018, 11:04:10 AM
Post by: Maenad on August 22, 2018, 11:24:37 AM
keeping hours like this makes them selective and high end. You have to really try and plan to get in here.
I know this works - we've all seen it. But I've also seen it fail miserably. Total thread hijack, but how do companies/services/restaurants actually do this? Get a few movers and shakers to talk up the place? Advertise in the "right" places? And do the Soon-To-Be Millionaires know how to do this? How does someone even learn?
I obviously didn't grow up in that atmosphere.
Post by: boarder42 on August 22, 2018, 12:07:17 PM
Y'all, the Millionaires (after being relatively low-key for a while during the office opening, minus the whole Tahoe situation) have blown my mind yet again. I got on Facebook last night and there was a notification that "Millionaire's Chiropractic Office has updated their office hours!" so I went to take a peek. Get a load of this!
Monday: 10am-1pm, 3pm-6pm
Tuesday: 3pm-6pm
Wednesday: 8am-1pm
Thursday: 10am-1pm, 3pm-6pm
Friday: CLOSED
Saturday: CLOSED
Sunday: CLOSED
If you did the math like I did, that is a 20 hour work week. I texted my sister and basically said the fuck is with these office hours!? She explained that sometimes on those (less than) half days, they will be doing "health talks" to try to get new customers to sign up, so technically they'll still be working. They will be "cramming as many people as possible" into small office time slots "so that we aren't working 12 hours a day." Working 12 hours a day!?!?! There's not a day on that schedule that even hits the standard 8!!
I have to think the "Health Talk" time would be better spent in the office treating actual, paying patients, but what do I know.
keeping hours like this makes them selective and high end. You have to really try and plan to get in here. Just like when facebook was exclusive to college kids. They are creating an exclusive environment where they can charge more for their services. Also if they are selling these annual plans then making the times you can actually use it limited while signing up more people to the plans seems like a great way to build a huge business of doing nothing but collecting cash.
You know until people realize its not usable and they dont need a plan. so they'll make killing this year
Except that they haven't yet earned that reputation.
He has no experience, no patients to refer people to him, and no history of online reviews.
Also, unless he's opened up shop in some magical location where there is a high demand for chiro and a low supply, then he's likely to face some stiff competition in a generally heavily oversaturated market.
Initial clinic openings tend to attract a bunch of new people at first, but it's not enough to pack a full schedule. I don't know chiro at all, but for my industry it takes a solid 1200-1500 ongoing patients, plus a steady flow of new patients every month. It's unlikely that there's just a thousand or so untreated chiro patients sitting around waiting for OP's BIL to open up shop.
They will likely get their initial burst, and then if they are lucky they will get a steady influx that allows them to build their patient load to be able to fill a full time schedule, but it's not something that happens immediately.
The newbie clinics with nothing going for them tend to open at least some evenings and some weekends in order to stand out and offer *something* that the more established clinics don't. Those leisure hours have to be earned. You can't just decide to be exclusive without the demonstrable reputation to back it up. Besides, what's up with the 2 hour lunches??
I'm saying this as someone who gets paid to consult on exactly this type of thing but not for chiro.
i agree my post was entirely sacrasm.
Post by: boarder42 on August 22, 2018, 12:11:42 PM
Post by: turketron on August 22, 2018, 12:52:28 PM
Quote
Leslie: I thought you were doing great. I tried to hire you once and you said you were all booked up.
Tom: That was a business tactic. For the first two weeks we told everyone we were booked solid to make people want us more.
Leslie: Ohhh no, that's the stupidest idea I have ever heard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbKaPN-0NcM
Post by: frugalfoothills on August 22, 2018, 02:47:17 PM
Maybe they're taking some pointers from Entertainment 720's business strategies?QuoteLeslie: I thought you were doing great. I tried to hire you once and you said you were all booked up.
Tom: That was a business tactic. For the first two weeks we told everyone we were booked solid to make people want us more.
Leslie: Ohhh no, that's the stupidest idea I have ever heard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbKaPN-0NcM
*jean ralphio voice* they are FLUUUUUUUSH with CAAAAAAAAASH!!!!
Post by: frugalfoothills on August 22, 2018, 02:52:11 PM
Sister sends me a picture message. She's lying facedown on a table and the skin of her back is red and inflamed from her neck to her waist. I'm like OMG, what happened!?!?!
"My acupuncturist did that to me earlier today!"
Oh wow. That looks bad. Why were you at the acupuncturist?
"Well, I've just been having a lot of neck and back pain lately..."
Post by: iris lily on August 22, 2018, 05:40:02 PM
Quote
...Funnily enough, the more over saturated a medical industry is, the harder it is to make money, and the more practitioners spend on extremely expensive measures to try and boost their patient numbers and their profits. Meanwhile salaries on average continue to plummet.
This is new information! Who knew this!!!
Post by: Mesmoiselle on August 22, 2018, 07:13:11 PM
My brother credited me with this great idea two days back.
withdrawing a $500 loan at 7%?? interest to invest in the stock market.
........
Maybe you once mentioned not paying down your mortgage and investing in the stock market? Your brother might think loan = loan.
Oh my gosh, maybe. I may have actually said something along these lines but in my defense-- my home loan is 3.5% and I only owe 29k at the moment. I've prioritized other savings, like maxing out the 401k and personal Interest Charging loans to Trustworthy family members....and I have maybe just barely recently gotten to the point where I would even BUY stocks and I still feel like I should pay off the house.
But I should definitely clarify with him that my 3.5% barely makes investment in the market worth it and probably only barely.
The Microloan place is called Moneylion: https://www.moneylion.com/ (https://www.moneylion.com/)
I actually tried to find what the hell they actually do on their website and it was a bit obtuse, so I found this website to explain it:
https://www.highya.com/moneylion-reviews (https://www.highya.com/moneylion-reviews)
7% only if he has good credit ( he doesn't) with a 2-6% fee just to get the loan. Let's assume that fee is also based on safety, so $35 for his $500 plan. As far as I can tell, they only want you to pay interest every month, there is no payment required on the main loan. (sounds predatory.) You can do free work for them by writing reviews and letting them stalk everything about you (Facebook, phone number, email, bank accounts, credit card accounts) in exchange for "up to a 15% reduction in your interest charges."
Post by: SeaWA on August 22, 2018, 11:16:01 PM
Joke of the day:
Sister sends me a picture message. She's lying facedown on a table and the skin of her back is red and inflamed from her neck to her waist. I'm like OMG, what happened!?!?!
"My acupuncturist did that to me earlier today!"
Oh wow. That looks bad. Why were you at the acupuncturist?
"Well, I've just been having a lot of neck and back pain lately..."
Pure gold!
Thanks for the update!
Post by: Linea_Norway on August 23, 2018, 12:42:11 AM
<...> Besides, what's up with the 2 hour lunches??
<...>
That's simple. That is the time you need to drive to your luncheon restaurant on the other side of the city, have a quiet lunch and drive back again.
Post by: Apple_Tango on August 23, 2018, 05:48:51 AM
Seriously, the only person I know with a schedule with free time at 10 am on a given weekday is my grandma
Post by: hops on August 23, 2018, 06:31:22 AM
I know because I am both a medical professional and a consultant.
I am "cold called" on a nearly daily basis by consultants from all over the country and from the US trying to sell me on how I can get more patients or increase my billings.
Funnily enough, the more over saturated a medical industry is, the harder it is to make money, and the more practitioners spend on extremely expensive measures to try and boost their patient numbers and their profits. Meanwhile salaries on average continue to plummet.
You're in dentistry, aren't you? Oversaturation in that field and in optometry is particularly interesting in light of the student loan debt burden those graduates carry.
OP, please update us if your brother-in-law starts selling multi-level marketing products to his "patients." Almost every chiropractor I know of who claims to be wildly successful eventually sinks to hocking MLM vitamins or shakes on the side.
Post by: talltexan on August 23, 2018, 06:39:07 AM
If there were one tweak I could offer, it'd be offering an early morning day, something like 6-9 am.
Post by: Dicey on August 23, 2018, 07:19:00 AM
the internets are hard with a personality like mine where nothing say is really serious - unless its about a mortgage. then i care.And thank goodness you do! (Totally serious, not sarcasm.)
Post by: calimom on August 23, 2018, 06:09:46 PM
Post by: ixtap on August 23, 2018, 06:17:31 PM
I'm guessing the people who were roped into signing up for a "package" of visits are going to be a mite frustrated when they find they can't schedule actual….visits and all. Especially if they work regular hours and need to have an adjustment after work, on their lunch hour, on Saturday morning or such.
I would ask for my money back if the hours changed to be less convenient to me after I signed up.
Post by: Cpa Cat on August 26, 2018, 11:50:19 AM
They don't have many clients, and it's an incredibly inefficient use of time if they book an appointment at 9am then one at 10:30 am then one at 1pm and then one at 4pm. By restricting the hours, they funnel the patients into a more back-to-back schedule.
I agree with a previous poster who said it makes more sense to open on Saturday and be closed mid week, and to have at least one half day where you work 10am-2pm to catch lunch hours.
Crazy long lunches are really common among chiropractors and some other doctors for some reason - I don't get it. It's really annoying to call a doctor's office at 1:30pm and find out the whole office is on some F-ed up lunch vacation.
Post by: hops on August 26, 2018, 01:00:46 PM
Crazy long lunches are really common among chiropractors and some other doctors for some reason - I don't get it. It's really annoying to call a doctor's office at 1:30pm and find out the whole office is on some F-ed up lunch vacation.
"F-ed up lunch vacations" is a great term that I want to use now in my everyday life. My dentist's office holds office meetings/team bonding time during their long lunch breaks and then posts photos on Facebook. If you examine them closely, you'll see some of the employees have wide smiles but eyes pleading for help.
Medical offices frequently aren't doing anything fun during those long breaks, either. Unless you're a fan of hours-long lectures, seminars, or other work-related meetings.
Post by: Cassie on August 26, 2018, 01:37:39 PM
Post by: Abe on August 26, 2018, 01:49:14 PM
Post by: AMandM on August 26, 2018, 06:20:34 PM
<...> Besides, what's up with the 2 hour lunches??
<...>
That's simple. That is the time you need to drive to your luncheon restaurant on the other side of the city, have a quiet lunch and drive back again.
From Nancy Mitford's "Paris Column" in the Sunday Times, December 9, 1951:
I was rung up from UNO by a member of the French delegation whom I had not seen for some time. 'Come to luncheon,' I said. But he replied gloomily that he gets only two hours off, and it takes ten minutes to my house. The idea of bolting his food in 100 minutes clearly appalled him, and he said that we must eat in Passy.
Now the UN building is full of entrances and, as we could not afford to lose precious minutes looking for each other, we decided that it would be safest to meet in the Musee de l'Homme [...]. We met sharp at one o'clock and raced to a local bistro where we happily guzzled until three minutes to three. 'You see,' he said, 'we've only just done it in the time.'
Post by: talltexan on August 27, 2018, 07:33:13 AM
The one nice thing was that we picked up some beautiful women to join us for the lunch. Because, you know, France.
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on August 27, 2018, 11:59:17 PM
Quote...Funnily enough, the more over saturated a medical industry is, the harder it is to make money, and the more practitioners spend on extremely expensive measures to try and boost their patient numbers and their profits. Meanwhile salaries on average continue to plummet.
This is new information! Who knew this!!!
The phenomenon exists far beyond the medical industry. There are plenty of consultants, services, and other businesses that provide only one thing: advice about how to improve other people's businesses. Very little of it is based on an actual audit or assessment of the business itself: it's more likely to be whizbang marketing or a bunch of modern astrology about how to better justify a previous decision to stereotype, limit, and criticize your individual employees while simultaneously wasting their time.
Supposedly all of this is intended to increase productivity or reduce turnover. In practice it just helps everybody learn the trendiest new buzzwords (assuming they can stay awake with all the jargon floating around the room). Afterwards the employees presumably go off and tiger team their woke leverage with the rest of the solution architects... which is particularly ineffective if what you hired them to do is to rotate tires, flip burgers, take vital signs, or write software code.
Many of these companies do indeed direct their "services" at particular industries. There's an equally pernicious group of consultants that feed off of job seekers.
Post by: Laura33 on August 28, 2018, 08:48:55 AM
Re: consultants: well of course there is a direct correlation between tightening markets and prevalence of miracle-promising consultants; why would you bother paying someone to tell you how to run your business when you're doing fine as is? It's when things get tight that the difference between a well-run and poorly-run operation really shows, and the latter get desperate.
My mom runs her own consulting business helping small charities learn how to do effective fundraising and run capital campaigns and the like. When the Great Recession hit, she was very very worried, because charitable donations were down significantly, so, she thought, who would have money to spare to hire a consultant? She ended up having her best year ever, and then the one after that was even better, and so on. Because when the overall charitable pie shrank, the little guys were desperate to figure out how to get a bigger share of it to stay in business.
Post by: TonyV. on August 28, 2018, 04:05:38 PM
Post by: Apple_Tango on August 28, 2018, 06:28:59 PM
I'm way late to this game, but definitely following from here on out!! She had neck and back pain, but here hunband wasn't good enough to fix it for her?! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Somehow the irony went way over my head and I’m so glad you pointed it out! Oh man that’s ridiculous ha
Post by: marty998 on August 29, 2018, 03:55:22 AM
Afterwards the employees presumably go off and tiger team their woke leverage with the rest of the solution architects...
In a scrum, with agile.
@TheGrimSqueaker and @plainjane. As Scrum Master of this Scrum Team I am disappointed in the lack of Scrum Values you are both displaying.
I'm going to write this up on the Scrum Board.
Now go work on your Sprint Backlog before we conduct our Sprint Retrospective and Sprint Reviews of this debacle.
Post by: partgypsy on August 29, 2018, 10:54:48 AM
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on August 29, 2018, 01:08:05 PM
@TheGrimSqueaker and @plainjane. As Scrum Master of this Scrum Team I am disappointed in the lack of Scrum Values you are both displaying.Afterwards the employees presumably go off and tiger team their woke leverage with the rest of the solution architects...In a scrum, with agile.
I'm going to write this up on the Scrum Board.
Now go work on your Sprint Backlog before we conduct our Sprint Retrospective and Sprint Reviews of this debacle.
I apologize for not living the team values or following the spirit of the social contract that we all wrote out together at the beginning of this project. I hang my head and have returned to reviewing Trello cards.
I, however, have just completed a blackout on my Buzzword Bingo card. What do I win?
Post by: patchyfacialhair on August 29, 2018, 01:31:29 PM
@TheGrimSqueaker and @plainjane. As Scrum Master of this Scrum Team I am disappointed in the lack of Scrum Values you are both displaying.Afterwards the employees presumably go off and tiger team their woke leverage with the rest of the solution architects...In a scrum, with agile.
I'm going to write this up on the Scrum Board.
Now go work on your Sprint Backlog before we conduct our Sprint Retrospective and Sprint Reviews of this debacle.
I apologize for not living the team values or following the spirit of the social contract that we all wrote out together at the beginning of this project. I hang my head and have returned to reviewing Trello cards.
I, however, have just completed a blackout on my Buzzword Bingo card. What do I win?
Synergy
Post by: talltexan on August 29, 2018, 01:50:52 PM
No Friday, Saturday or Sunday hours. How convenient for those who work full time. I do feel it makes sense to limit the hours at this time point. But they should have at least 1 "weekend" day where they see clients.
People keep saying it makes sense to limit their hours, but why does this make sense?
Unless they have staff that they are paying, then the only cost to staying open is their own time and the electricity for the lights. It’s a new business, it’s normal to put in a lot of unpaid hours. Efficiency only comes into play once the practice has enough patients, until then, attracting patients is the top priority.
Closing during certain hours to give “health talks” to drum up business could make sense, although assuming that his wife is capable of working reception, they could still keep the doors open for foot traffic and she could provide info and book potential patients even if he’s out giving a talk.
If he is in a visible location with a lot of foot traffic, then he should be open as much as possible to cast the widest net for that foot traffic and get the most benefit.
Sure, if you have more than enough patients and a stable patient flow to sustain a practice, then you can work whatever hours you want. Until then, more hours means more potential patients, and limiting hours limits exposure and convenience.
Two different visions for how you build this business: walk-in customers, or person-to-person networking. If the latter is closer to their strategy, then the reduced hours make sense.
Post by: yourusernamehere on August 29, 2018, 02:45:29 PM
I come here to get away from this!@TheGrimSqueaker and @plainjane. As Scrum Master of this Scrum Team I am disappointed in the lack of Scrum Values you are both displaying.Afterwards the employees presumably go off and tiger team their woke leverage with the rest of the solution architects...In a scrum, with agile.
I'm going to write this up on the Scrum Board.
Now go work on your Sprint Backlog before we conduct our Sprint Retrospective and Sprint Reviews of this debacle.
I apologize for not living the team values or following the spirit of the social contract that we all wrote out together at the beginning of this project. I hang my head and have returned to reviewing Trello cards.
Post by: Laura33 on August 29, 2018, 03:16:19 PM
I come here to get away from this!@TheGrimSqueaker and @plainjane. As Scrum Master of this Scrum Team I am disappointed in the lack of Scrum Values you are both displaying.Afterwards the employees presumably go off and tiger team their woke leverage with the rest of the solution architects...In a scrum, with agile.
I'm going to write this up on the Scrum Board.
Now go work on your Sprint Backlog before we conduct our Sprint Retrospective and Sprint Reviews of this debacle.
I apologize for not living the team values or following the spirit of the social contract that we all wrote out together at the beginning of this project. I hang my head and have returned to reviewing Trello cards.
I am so, so thankful that I have absolutely no idea what any of this means.
Post by: prudent_one on August 29, 2018, 05:25:58 PM
AAHHHH! My neighbor regales me occasionally with stories of the 3 Agile/Scrum zealots his company brought in. Take any word that people instinctively understand, they make up a new one. The latest one he told me was that when Zealot #3 decided to change the periodic <some agile buzzword here> meeting, they didn't tell people they updated the calendar when they moved the future meetings. They updated the cadence.Afterwards the employees presumably go off and tiger team their woke leverage with the rest of the solution architects...
In a scrum, with agile.
You know how some software has open issues that need to be fixed? Not theirs, they have defect debt. I just have to laugh.
Post by: stclurker on August 29, 2018, 09:00:05 PM
Post by: Linea_Norway on August 30, 2018, 01:07:22 AM
I come here to get away from this!@TheGrimSqueaker and @plainjane. As Scrum Master of this Scrum Team I am disappointed in the lack of Scrum Values you are both displaying.Afterwards the employees presumably go off and tiger team their woke leverage with the rest of the solution architects...In a scrum, with agile.
I'm going to write this up on the Scrum Board.
Now go work on your Sprint Backlog before we conduct our Sprint Retrospective and Sprint Reviews of this debacle.
I apologize for not living the team values or following the spirit of the social contract that we all wrote out together at the beginning of this project. I hang my head and have returned to reviewing Trello cards.
I am so, so thankful that I have absolutely no idea what any of this means.
Today I am up for a whole day of meetings according these scrum buzzwords. Puke!
Good to hear that more normal (MMM) people find the scrum business a provoking BS method.
Post by: jinga nation on August 30, 2018, 10:00:50 AM
I come here to get away from this!@TheGrimSqueaker and @plainjane. As Scrum Master of this Scrum Team I am disappointed in the lack of Scrum Values you are both displaying.Afterwards the employees presumably go off and tiger team their woke leverage with the rest of the solution architects...In a scrum, with agile.
I'm going to write this up on the Scrum Board.
Now go work on your Sprint Backlog before we conduct our Sprint Retrospective and Sprint Reviews of this debacle.
I apologize for not living the team values or following the spirit of the social contract that we all wrote out together at the beginning of this project. I hang my head and have returned to reviewing Trello cards.
I am so, so thankful that I have absolutely no idea what any of this means.
Today I am up for a whole day of meetings according these scrum buzzwords. Puke!
Good to hear that more normal (MMM) people find the scrum business a provoking BS method.
I had enough of the buzzword baloney shit sandwiches during my time at HoneyHell doing Six Sigma. When I left that shithole, swore that if any company that I worked for decided to implement stupid shit like that, it was time to move on.
I work with code developers and operations engineers, we use git and terraform and aws cli and a lot of devops tools, but we don't do the stupid scrumbumfucks and agile-cluster-fuckery-yoga-twistys.
Fuck all these idiocracies that claim to increase productivity and being told by non-technical people running dumbfuck meetings how to develop code. Dumbass mofos need to bumblefuck doubletime and gtfo to bumfuckegypt.
Post by: ysette9 on August 30, 2018, 10:40:26 AM
Tell us what you really think!
Post by: Apples on August 30, 2018, 12:35:54 PM
Post by: a286 on August 30, 2018, 12:48:08 PM
I dont plan on being here for that.
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on August 30, 2018, 03:09:08 PM
I'm so lucky I work in production ag. I never, ever use buzzwords. Unless "food safety" is a buzzword. I'm imagining having to sit in a meeting where they're telling me about calling a calendar a "cadence" and I would be like....but why? And then channel my inner Ron Swanson to tell them no, I'm not doing that, we all know it's a calendar. And what is a scrum? I thought that was some rugby thing?
They pick words that sound masochistic so people know in advance that they're signing up to be miserable for the duration.
Post by: Abe on August 30, 2018, 09:12:01 PM
Post by: barbaz on August 31, 2018, 12:18:14 AM
Today I am up for a whole day of meetings according these scrum buzzwords. Puke!Seriously though, if you think these meetings are a waste of time, you should point that out in the retrospective. That’s what it’s for.
Good to hear that more normal (MMM) people find the scrum business a provoking BS method.
For those who don’t know, scrum has a regular meeting with the single purpose of giving everyone a chance to complain about how things are done and to suggest improvements. I think a lot of companies could benefit from that.
Post by: runbikerun on August 31, 2018, 02:08:15 AM
Nobody discusses anything in a scrum. A call is made, and everybody shuts the fuck up and does their job. All you can think about as a prop is the guy opposite you and how to shove his head between his knees using nothing but your shoulder. All you can think about as a lock is getting your shoulders just under your front row's arses and driving into them as hard as you can. The only workplace environment I've ever been in that comes close to replicating the psychological feeling of scrummaging was the lunchtime rush at Burger King when I was seventeen years old.
Calling a staff meeting a scrum is insulting to rugby players, indicative of a total lack of knowledge of what a scrum actually is, and a bullshit attempt to imbue management theory with a badass aura it absolutely does not deserve.
Post by: UnleashHell on August 31, 2018, 03:58:13 AM
The use of the word scrum in a business meeting sense, along with similar bullshit like referring to top-tier coders as"rockstar", is infuriating. I spent four years playing rugby, two of them as a loosehead prop, and an actual scrum is light years from a stand-up meeting about tasks for the day.
Nobody discusses anything in a scrum. A call is made, and everybody shuts the fuck up and does their job. All you can think about as a prop is the guy opposite you and how to shove his head between his knees using nothing but your shoulder. All you can think about as a lock is getting your shoulders just under your front row's arses and driving into them as hard as you can. The only workplace environment I've ever been in that comes close to replicating the psychological feeling of scrummaging was the lunchtime rush at Burger King when I was seventeen years old.
Calling a staff meeting a scrum is insulting to rugby players, indicative of a total lack of knowledge of what a scrum actually is, and a bullshit attempt to imbue management theory with a badass aura it absolutely does not deserve.
and always protect your hooker.
please.
Post by: marty998 on August 31, 2018, 04:47:25 AM
I come here to get away from this!@TheGrimSqueaker and @plainjane. As Scrum Master of this Scrum Team I am disappointed in the lack of Scrum Values you are both displaying.Afterwards the employees presumably go off and tiger team their woke leverage with the rest of the solution architects...In a scrum, with agile.
I'm going to write this up on the Scrum Board.
Now go work on your Sprint Backlog before we conduct our Sprint Retrospective and Sprint Reviews of this debacle.
I apologize for not living the team values or following the spirit of the social contract that we all wrote out together at the beginning of this project. I hang my head and have returned to reviewing Trello cards.
I am so, so thankful that I have absolutely no idea what any of this means.
Today I am up for a whole day of meetings according these scrum buzzwords. Puke!
Good to hear that more normal (MMM) people find the scrum business a provoking BS method.
I had enough of the buzzword baloney shit sandwiches during my time at HoneyHell doing Six Sigma. When I left that shithole, swore that if any company that I worked for decided to implement stupid shit like that, it was time to move on.
I work with code developers and operations engineers, we use git and terraform and aws cli and a lot of devops tools, but we don't do the stupid scrumbumfucks and agile-cluster-fuckery-yoga-twistys.
Fuck all these idiocracies that claim to increase productivity and being told by non-technical people running dumbfuck meetings how to develop code. Dumbass mofos need to bumblefuck doubletime and gtfo to bumfuckegypt.
At least we've stopped trying to be ahead of the curve. My company talks a lot now about being simpler, yet at last count we have 1800 different products.
Post by: Linea_Norway on August 31, 2018, 04:53:19 AM
Calling a staff meeting a scrum is insulting to rugby players, indicative of a total lack of knowledge of what a scrum actually is, and a bullshit attempt to imbue management theory with a badass aura it absolutely does not deserve.
Can you please send a rugby team over here to tell my boss that?
Post by: Spud on August 31, 2018, 10:59:02 AM
Post by: barbaz on August 31, 2018, 11:02:01 AM
Scrum isn’t a meeting, it’s a process. Which consists of different meetings, among other things.Calling a staff meeting a scrum is insulting to rugby players, indicative of a total lack of knowledge of what a scrum actually is, and a bullshit attempt to imbue management theory with a badass aura it absolutely does not deserve.
Can you please send a rugby team over here to tell my boss that?
Post by: Davnasty on August 31, 2018, 11:26:42 AM
In this context, the word cadence, if we dropped all the business jargon and bullshit and instead used plain English, would simply be called "frequency". That's right folks. It's simply how frequently the meeting takes place. Fuck cadence. Seriously.
Frequency seems more apt in terms of meetings. I've always thought of cadence as referring to rhythmic motion. Just checked the definition and it seems to refer specifically to sounds. I assume the connection to motion comes from using sound to regulate motion, as in calling cadence while marching. I would accept cadence to refer to motion or sound. Cadence of meetings is hereby unacceptable :)
Post by: prudent_one on September 01, 2018, 07:40:19 PM
I'm so lucky I work in production ag. I never, ever use buzzwords. Unless "food safety" is a buzzword. I'm imagining having to sit in a meeting where they're telling me about calling a calendar a "cadence" and I would be like....but why? And then channel my inner Ron Swanson to tell them no, I'm not doing that, we all know it's a calendar. And what is a scrum? I thought that was some rugby thing?
Actually, I quite like cadence. It is nice and musical. And it means something different from calendar. We meet once a month, that is the cadence. The calendar date doesn't matter. If we were meeting three times a week, and now we're meeting twice a week, that isn't a calendar change, it's a cadence change. Granted, some people probably are using it wrong because they just think it is a buzz word and not something with actual meaning and stuff.
I asked my neighbor what actually happened with the meeting change, he said the meetings are held every two weeks, and the change was to move all the future meetings out by one week. Still every two weeks, just on different dates.
Agree with you that frequency is a better match for "cadence".
Post by: K-ice on September 01, 2018, 10:47:29 PM
I was thinking of this thread last night while I waited 3 hours in the emergency room after my first ever visit to a chiropractor the other day, which obviously didn’t go well. Lol
Oh no, I hope you are feeling better.
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on September 02, 2018, 05:48:37 AM
Maybe I'm out of date - is Kaizen a thing anymore?
I do some work for a large Japanese-owned company, and it sure is there.
Post by: jinga nation on September 04, 2018, 06:09:27 AM
Some companies don't want to use that foreign word, but like the principles of Kaizen, so they rebrand it. e.g. Honeywell Operating System (HOS). Then they add in Six Sigma and Lean. Proper HOSed.Maybe I'm out of date - is Kaizen a thing anymore?
I do some work for a large Japanese-owned company, and it sure is there.
Post by: frugalfoothills on September 06, 2018, 09:18:53 AM
Post by: Kay-Ell on September 10, 2018, 01:24:31 PM
In this context, the word cadence, if we dropped all the business jargon and bullshit and instead used plain English, would simply be called "frequency". That's right folks. It's simply how frequently the meeting takes place. Fuck cadence. Seriously.
Frequency seems more apt in terms of meetings. I've always thought of cadence as referring to rhythmic motion. Just checked the definition and it seems to refer specifically to sounds. I assume the connection to motion comes from using sound to regulate motion, as in calling cadence while marching. I would accept cadence to refer to motion or sound. Cadence of meetings is hereby unacceptable :)
The use of the term Cadence, as it pertains to business meetings, is a huge pet peeve of mine. I'm a musician. A Cadence is a series of chords to signal the ending of a piece of music (or sometimes a phrase within a piece of music). Unless they're going to start playing the most comonly recognized, perfect cadence, at 5pm to signify the end of the work day, they can shut their pie holes about cadences.
Post by: lemanfan on September 10, 2018, 02:03:12 PM
Post by: chaskavitch on September 10, 2018, 02:57:45 PM
Some companies don't want to use that foreign word, but like the principles of Kaizen, so they rebrand it. e.g. Honeywell Operating System (HOS). Then they add in Six Sigma and Lean. Proper HOSed.Maybe I'm out of date - is Kaizen a thing anymore?
I do some work for a large Japanese-owned company, and it sure is there.
All the cube-people (as opposed to manufacturing floor people) in my company are going through Lean training right now. They're still use the Kaizen terms too. I like the concept, but it seems difficult to implement while trying to remember all of your new terms :)
Post by: iris lily on September 10, 2018, 06:55:53 PM
I was thinking of this thread last night while I waited 3 hours in the emergency room after my first ever visit to a chiropractor the other day, which obviously didn’t go well. Loli am very sorry to hear this. I dont trust the fkers myself and they are not going to crack or adjust or bend me.
Post by: KodeBlue on September 12, 2018, 07:18:55 PM
. As for what my sister is doing...... very unclear.Wasn't she teaching spin or something?
Post by: barbaz on September 13, 2018, 06:56:00 AM
Maybe this is a good moment to point out that chiropractic is the quackery version of physical therapy with no standardized education nor empirically proven benefits unless where it coincidentally happens to be exactly like physical therapy. It is however proven to occasionally land people in a wheelchair.I was thinking of this thread last night while I waited 3 hours in the emergency room after my first ever visit to a chiropractor the other day, which obviously didn’t go well. Loli am very sorry to hear this. I dont trust the fkers myself and they are not going to crack or adjust or bend me.
Oh thanks, I’m fine.
Yeah, I had 3 MDs that week warn me against chiro. MDs here seem to really hate chiros.
Mine comes highly recommended by my sports med doctor though, so who knows.
I’m mostly going for the Shockwave, which is like a massage on steroids.
I would never let anyone crack anything on my body, and after last time, there will never be dry needling again.
Post by: I'm a red panda on September 13, 2018, 08:27:07 AM
Some companies don't want to use that foreign word, but like the principles of Kaizen, so they rebrand it. e.g. Honeywell Operating System (HOS). Then they add in Six Sigma and Lean. Proper HOSed.Maybe I'm out of date - is Kaizen a thing anymore?
I do some work for a large Japanese-owned company, and it sure is there.
All the cube-people (as opposed to manufacturing floor people) in my company are going through Lean training right now. They're still use the Kaizen terms too. I like the concept, but it seems difficult to implement while trying to remember all of your new terms :)
We used Lean for awhile. Now I have to learn all the Agile buzzwords.
Post by: Vibrissae on September 13, 2018, 12:18:14 PM
Maybe this is a good moment to point out that chiropractic is the quackery version of physical therapy with no standardized education nor empirically proven benefits unless where it coincidentally happens to be exactly like physical therapy. It is however proven to occasionally land people in a wheelchair.I was thinking of this thread last night while I waited 3 hours in the emergency room after my first ever visit to a chiropractor the other day, which obviously didn’t go well. Loli am very sorry to hear this. I dont trust the fkers myself and they are not going to crack or adjust or bend me.
Oh thanks, I’m fine.
Yeah, I had 3 MDs that week warn me against chiro. MDs here seem to really hate chiros.
Mine comes highly recommended by my sports med doctor though, so who knows.
I’m mostly going for the Shockwave, which is like a massage on steroids.
I would never let anyone crack anything on my body, and after last time, there will never be dry needling again.
I have a chiropractor who's helped me so much, and yeah, he basically does physical therapy: heat, electrostimulation, ultrasound, lasers, massage. A couple of cracks at the very end, but gentle. I don't live in that town anymore, but on the infrequent occasions I need treatment, I drive an hour to go see him, because I don't want to deal with the hassle of trying to find a new chiro who isn't full of woo-woo BS.
I'd never heard of dry needling before now...
Post by: jinga nation on September 13, 2018, 12:31:42 PM
In a software/cloud world, not only do I have to learn and get certified in AWS and Azure with their tech terms, but also learn git, Jenkins, Salt, Terraform, etc, which have their own lingo. And Agile on top of that would drive me over the cliff. Plus there's ton of contract onsite lingo as the govt has their own acronym lexicon. Truly hosed I am.Some companies don't want to use that foreign word, but like the principles of Kaizen, so they rebrand it. e.g. Honeywell Operating System (HOS). Then they add in Six Sigma and Lean. Proper HOSed.Maybe I'm out of date - is Kaizen a thing anymore?
I do some work for a large Japanese-owned company, and it sure is there.
All the cube-people (as opposed to manufacturing floor people) in my company are going through Lean training right now. They're still use the Kaizen terms too. I like the concept, but it seems difficult to implement while trying to remember all of your new terms :)
We used Lean for awhile. Now I have to learn all the Agile buzzwords.
Post by: frugalfoothills on September 13, 2018, 12:36:49 PM
. As for what my sister is doing...... very unclear.Wasn't she teaching spin or something?
She has yet to teach a single class.
Post by: calimom on September 13, 2018, 07:10:46 PM
. As for what my sister is doing...... very unclear.Wasn't she teaching spin or something?
She has yet to teach a single class.
She's waiting for the millions to kick in, meanwhile driving her new-to-her gas guzzler around, avoiding actual chiropractic clients as much as possible. So inconvenient, them!
Post by: Kahooli on September 13, 2018, 08:29:48 PM
"Stop acting like you're rich, because you obviously are not"
Post by: KodeBlue on September 13, 2018, 09:42:34 PM
[She's waiting for the millions to kick in, meanwhile driving her new-to-her gas guzzler around, avoiding actual chiropractic clients as much as possible. So inconvenient, them!I know just how she feels. I work in a hospital; it would be a great place to work if it wasn't for all the sick people that seem to congregate there.
Post by: barbaz on September 14, 2018, 08:33:31 AM
I haven't read the whole thread... just the first and last page. But they really need to hear these words:I hope they don’t, or we would get no more great stories.
"Stop acting like you're rich, because you obviously are not"
I know just how she feels. I work in a hospital; it would be a great place to work if it wasn't for all the sick people that seem to congregate there.I hear people die in hospitals a lot, maybe you really should work someplace safer?
Post by: iris lily on September 14, 2018, 09:12:10 AM
Funnily enough, the more over saturated a medical industry is, the harder it is to make money, and the more practitioners spend on extremely expensive measures to try and boost their patient numbers and their profits. Meanwhile salaries on average continue to plummet.
Isn't that pretty much any biz and not only the medical field?
I think the “Funnily enough” intro clues us that this is a pretty common economic law.
Post by: iris lily on September 14, 2018, 09:17:34 AM
Maybe this is a good moment to point out that chiropractic is the quackery version of physical therapy with no standardized education nor empirically proven benefits unless where it coincidentally happens to be exactly like physical therapy. It is however proven to occasionally land people in a wheelchair.I was thinking of this thread last night while I waited 3 hours in the emergency room after my first ever visit to a chiropractor the other day, which obviously didn’t go well. Loli am very sorry to hear this. I dont trust the fkers myself and they are not going to crack or adjust or bend me.
Oh thanks, I’m fine.
Yeah, I had 3 MDs that week warn me against chiro. MDs here seem to really hate chiros.
Mine comes highly recommended by my sports med doctor though, so who knows.
I’m mostly going for the Shockwave, which is like a massage on steroids.
I would never let anyone crack anything on my body, and after last time, there will never be dry needling again.
Exactly! I think the problem may be that in order to get a physical therapist to treat you, ya gotta have orders from a regular western medicine Dr. Most people want to skip that step.
My dad was a physical therapist from the 1940’s when it was a fairly new health science degree. I trust that profession and roll my eyes at the chiros having heard a lot over decades about their quack work.
Post by: KodeBlue on September 14, 2018, 09:34:04 AM
Made my day!I haven't read the whole thread... just the first and last page. But they really need to hear these words:I hope they don’t, or we would get no more great stories.
"Stop acting like you're rich, because you obviously are not"I know just how she feels. I work in a hospital; it would be a great place to work if it wasn't for all the sick people that seem to congregate there.I hear people die in hospitals a lot, maybe you really should work someplace safer?
Post by: Laura33 on September 14, 2018, 10:13:00 AM
I'd never heard of dry needling before now...
It is acupuncture without the acupuncture training -- tends to be intramuscular vs. the "traditional" Chinese acupuncture points. My acupuncturist actually does a combination of the two (she is sort of a sports-medicine focus and does a number of treatments). She absolutely detests people who advertise dry needling, because, as she says, "I went to school for 8 years to learn how to do things properly and safely; these guys go to one two-week seminar and call themselves experts."
And not to derail the thread into other alternative therapies, but I also feel compelled to say that I was a total non-believer in acupuncture until a year ago -- I am a very anti-woo-woo person. I met my therapist at the gym and made my first appointment with her thinking she was a sports-medicine-focused therapist; when she whipped out the needles I wanted to walk out but thought that would be massively rude. So I figured, well, I'm here, can't hurt. And wow. I am a total believer now and go every week -- I have a permanent spine issue and a rotator cuff issue that I am avoiding, and she manages to get the specific muscles and fascia to release so I can keep working out without seizing up.
Post by: ixtap on September 14, 2018, 11:45:47 AM
I'd never heard of dry needling before now...
It is acupuncture without the acupuncture training -- tends to be intramuscular vs. the "traditional" Chinese acupuncture points. My acupuncturist actually does a combination of the two (she is sort of a sports-medicine focus and does a number of treatments). She absolutely detests people who advertise dry needling, because, as she says, "I went to school for 8 years to learn how to do things properly and safely; these guys go to one two-week seminar and call themselves experts."
And not to derail the thread into other alternative therapies, but I also feel compelled to say that I was a total non-believer in acupuncture until a year ago -- I am a very anti-woo-woo person. I met my therapist at the gym and made my first appointment with her thinking she was a sports-medicine-focused therapist; when she whipped out the needles I wanted to walk out but thought that would be massively rude. So I figured, well, I'm here, can't hurt. And wow. I am a total believer now and go every week -- I have a permanent spine issue and a rotator cuff issue that I am avoiding, and she manages to get the specific muscles and fascia to release so I can keep working out without seizing up.
My husband still isn't sold on acupuncture, but he goes every other week because he likes talking to his therapist, whom we refer to as his pain management specialist. It has been a year and he is evidently still the most tense person ever to grace the table.
Post by: iris lily on September 14, 2018, 02:36:13 PM
I have read just enough to gain a respect for acupuncture as theoretical treatment. Finding the right practitioner is probably key, as in most treatments. And having reasonsble expectations sbout what the treatment will accomplish, also important.I'd never heard of dry needling before now...
It is acupuncture without the acupuncture training -- tends to be intramuscular vs. the "traditional" Chinese acupuncture points. My acupuncturist actually does a combination of the two (she is sort of a sports-medicine focus and does a number of treatments). She absolutely detests people who advertise dry needling, because, as she says, "I went to school for 8 years to learn how to do things properly and safely; these guys go to one two-week seminar and call themselves experts."
And not to derail the thread into other alternative therapies, but I also feel compelled to say that I was a total non-believer in acupuncture until a year ago -- I am a very anti-woo-woo person. I met my therapist at the gym and made my first appointment with her thinking she was a sports-medicine-focused therapist; when she whipped out the needles I wanted to walk out but thought that would be massively rude. So I figured, well, I'm here, can't hurt. And wow. I am a total believer now and go every week -- I have a permanent spine issue and a rotator cuff issue that I am avoiding, and she manages to get the specific muscles and fascia to release so I can keep working out without seizing up.
Post by: Nederstash on September 15, 2018, 07:52:33 AM
. As for what my sister is doing...... very unclear.Wasn't she teaching spin or something?
She has yet to teach a single class.
How was she able to explain that to God? It was his plan after all.
Post by: Zamboni on September 15, 2018, 09:27:35 AM
To clarify: they do have a staff of two people... a "chiropractic assistant" and an office manager. They were childhood friends of my BIL and were working restaurant jobs prior to this. They are probably being paid minimum wage, zero benefits, etc. As for what my sister is doing...... very unclear.
Sounds like they can add "shitty employers" to their list of virtues.
How do their employees feel about their relatively low pay for these weird and evolving hours? Have the employees drank the Koolaid too?
Post by: barbaz on September 17, 2018, 12:27:41 AM
Acupuncture works. Funnily though, it doesn’t even matter where you put the needles. Just make sure not to stick them too deep or you risk damaging your nerves. “Traditional acupuncture points” don’t actually exist because the traditional Chinese couldn’t agree on a single “correct” way to do it. In fact it’s better to stay away from the “traditional” points because they often have nerves near them.I'd never heard of dry needling before now...
It is acupuncture without the acupuncture training -- tends to be intramuscular vs. the "traditional" Chinese acupuncture points. My acupuncturist actually does a combination of the two (she is sort of a sports-medicine focus and does a number of treatments). She absolutely detests people who advertise dry needling, because, as she says, "I went to school for 8 years to learn how to do things properly and safely; these guys go to one two-week seminar and call themselves experts."
Post by: partgypsy on September 17, 2018, 11:09:17 AM
Post by: I'm a red panda on September 17, 2018, 11:37:40 AM
Exactly! I think the problem may be that in order to get a physical therapist to treat you, ya gotta have orders from a regular western medicine Dr. Most people want to skip that step.
My dad was a physical therapist from the 1940’s when it was a fairly new health science degree. I trust that profession and roll my eyes at the chiros having heard a lot over decades about their quack work.
I'm so glad I live in a state that doesn't require a PT referral.
Also, dry needling is incredible. I've also had acupuncture and it costs 10x more and I haven't seen effects from it.
The two treatments were nothing alike. The dry needling was myofacial trigger point release, to stimulate twitch response in the muscles that were in pain. The acupuncture were placed on "meridians" away from where I actually felt pain. So I wouldn't say it is acupuncture without acupuncture training.
That said- my Mom uses acupuncture for allergies, and it's incredible, so I wouldn't say it's a waste to do. Just that they are different things.
Post by: BicycleB on September 17, 2018, 12:11:39 PM
In this context, the word cadence, if we dropped all the business jargon and bullshit and instead used plain English, would simply be called "frequency". That's right folks. It's simply how frequently the meeting takes place. Fuck cadence. Seriously.
Frequency seems more apt in terms of meetings. I've always thought of cadence as referring to rhythmic motion. Just checked the definition and it seems to refer specifically to sounds. I assume the connection to motion comes from using sound to regulate motion, as in calling cadence while marching. I would accept cadence to refer to motion or sound. Cadence of meetings is hereby unacceptable :)
The use of the term Cadence, as it pertains to business meetings, is a huge pet peeve of mine. I'm a musician. A Cadence is a series of chords to signal the ending of a piece of music (or sometimes a phrase within a piece of music). Unless they're going to start playing the most comonly recognized, perfect cadence, at 5pm to signify the end of the work day, they can shut their pie holes about cadences.
You've found the exact reason why the cadence metaphor is used. The meetings are exactly like a series of chords to signal the ending of a piece of music, in that they're supposed to have notes from each player. The meetings do signal the end of a phrase, in that they are to signal the end of a coordinated set of work being done, concluding jointly similar to how musicians end a phrase. And like the coordinated play in a song, the work of the team is supposed to be coordinated here to achieve a harmonious satisfying single result (piece of working software, etc).
Former touring musician here, have seen/ been involved in scrums that worked wonderfully. All but one did, so far. Sad that so many bad examples are out there, though.
Sorry to digress from the acupuncture bit. How are the millionaires doing?
Post by: Laura33 on September 17, 2018, 12:29:14 PM
Exactly! I think the problem may be that in order to get a physical therapist to treat you, ya gotta have orders from a regular western medicine Dr. Most people want to skip that step.
My dad was a physical therapist from the 1940’s when it was a fairly new health science degree. I trust that profession and roll my eyes at the chiros having heard a lot over decades about their quack work.
I'm so glad I live in a state that doesn't require a PT referral.
Also, dry needling is incredible. I've also had acupuncture and it costs 10x more and I haven't seen effects from it.
The two treatments were nothing alike. The dry needling was myofacial trigger point release, to stimulate twitch response in the muscles that were in pain. The acupuncture were placed on "meridians" away from where I actually felt pain. So I wouldn't say it is acupuncture without acupuncture training.
That said- my Mom uses acupuncture for allergies, and it's incredible, so I wouldn't say it's a waste to do. Just that they are different things.
Right -- the "meridians" are traditional Chinese acupuncture points, which I don't really know if I believe in for all things they are touted for (although they do definitely cause some interesting physiological responses when she does them). Because my therapist also does sports medicine, she tends to spend more of the time doing what other places call "dry needling." So it's not that people can't do both, or that there is no good dry needling -- it's more the classic regulated/unregulated thing. My therapist had to go through a 4-year post-grad program to be certified and allowed to practice as a licensed acupuncturist; regardless of whether I think the treatment works or not, I know that she has been well-trained in it and will do it safely. OTOH, "dry needling" has become such a thing in the sports medicine world around here that people are taking quickie courses and offering it at local gyms, so the folks who really do know what they're doing are largely outnumbered by the rest, and it is very hard to distinguish between the two.
Post by: Sibley on September 17, 2018, 01:05:17 PM
Post by: Beard N Bones on September 27, 2018, 04:07:27 PM
Maybe this is a good moment to point out that chiropractic is the quackery version of physical therapy with no standardized education nor empirically proven benefits unless where it coincidentally happens to be exactly like physical therapy. It is however proven to occasionally land people in a wheelchair.
You seem to be mistaken and exceptionally biased @barbaz
Here is some reading for you and anyone else that thinks chiropractic is quackery and will land you in a wheelchair. These are just a small sampling of what's out there.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28399251 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28399251)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4336806/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4336806/)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18204390 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18204390)
Post by: runbikerun on September 28, 2018, 04:29:04 AM
Maybe this is a good moment to point out that chiropractic is the quackery version of physical therapy with no standardized education nor empirically proven benefits unless where it coincidentally happens to be exactly like physical therapy. It is however proven to occasionally land people in a wheelchair.
You seem to be mistaken and exceptionally biased @barbaz
Here is some reading for you and anyone else that thinks chiropractic is quackery and will land you in a wheelchair. These are just a small sampling of what's out there.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28399251 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28399251)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4336806/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4336806/)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18204390 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18204390)
I'm on my phone and so can't go into the detail I'd like, but I'd note that while warnings regarding the dangers of chiropractic treatment are focused on increased stroke risk among younger people, those links are a Cochrane review which doesn't mention controlling for age or indeed looking at anything except reduction of lower back pain, a study based on people aged 66 and older, and a study which found substantially different results for under 45s and over 45s.
Post by: runbikerun on September 28, 2018, 06:00:32 AM
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1905885/
The entirety of the paper's conclusions are as follows:
"Spinal manipulation, particularly when performed on the upper spine, is frequently associated with mild to moderate adverse effects. It can also result in serious complications such as vertebral artery dissection followed by stroke. Currently, the incidence of such events is not known. In the interest of patient safety we should reconsider our policy towards the routine use of spinal manipulation."
Here's the American Heart Association in 2014, warning that "most population controlled studies have found an association between CMT (cervical manipulative therapy) and VAD stroke in young patients": https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/str.0000000000000016
Here's the case which started with the British Chiropractic Association suing journalist Simon Singh for libel, and ended with every major British party pledging libel law reform and a quarter of the BCA's members coming under investigation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chiropractic_Association_v_Singh.
Post by: marty998 on September 28, 2018, 06:34:58 AM
vertebral artery dissection
This sounds like a particularly gruesome form of medieval torture to inflict on a poor unfortunate soul.
In other news today, earlier up this thread I wrote something about scrums. Today I participated in a Scrum Of Scrums. I have no idea what the purpose of a Scrum Of Scrums is, but it did get me thinking whether I needed to radio SOS to get me out of there...
Post by: erutio on September 28, 2018, 08:33:35 AM
Maybe this is a good moment to point out that chiropractic is the quackery version of physical therapy with no standardized education nor empirically proven benefits unless where it coincidentally happens to be exactly like physical therapy. It is however proven to occasionally land people in a wheelchair.
You seem to be mistaken and exceptionally biased @barbaz
Here is some reading for you and anyone else that thinks chiropractic is quackery and will land you in a wheelchair. These are just a small sampling of what's out there.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28399251 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28399251)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4336806/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4336806/)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18204390 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18204390)
There are some good and some bad chiros out there, just like there are good and bad doctors, lawyers, hair stylists, etc. And there are many people who could benefit from seeing the right chiropractor.
However, it doesn't change the fact that chiropracty as a profession is quackery and not rooted in any scientific base. It descends from a long tradition of snake oils salesmanship, and will continue to be around as long as the placebo effects exists and the venn diagram intersection of people with painful ailments and people wanting a quick fix is not zero.
Post by: Linea_Norway on September 28, 2018, 12:04:03 PM
vertebral artery dissection
This sounds like a particularly gruesome form of medieval torture to inflict on a poor unfortunate soul.
In other news today, earlier up this thread I wrote something about scrums. Today I participated in a Scrum Of Scrums. I have no idea what the purpose of a Scrum Of Scrums is, but it did get me thinking whether I needed to radio SOS to get me out of there...
Scrum of scrums, been there, done that. I have been at such a meeting with only well paid supervising consultants present, not anyone who did any actual work. That is how we a consultants kept eachother busy there.
Post by: Beard N Bones on September 28, 2018, 01:31:29 PM
The entirety of the paper's conclusions are as follows:
"Spinal manipulation, particularly when performed on the upper spine, is frequently associated with mild to moderate adverse effects. It can also result in serious complications such as vertebral artery dissection followed by stroke. Currently, the incidence of such events is not known. In the interest of patient safety we should reconsider our policy towards the routine use of spinal manipulation."
Here's the American Heart Association in 2014, warning that "most population controlled studies have found an association between CMT (cervical manipulative therapy) and VAD stroke in young patients": https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/str.0000000000000016
Here's the case which started with the British Chiropractic Association suing journalist Simon Singh for libel, and ended with every major British party pledging libel law reform and a quarter of the BCA's members coming under investigation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chiropractic_Association_v_Singh.
You are right:
- There are mild/moderate side effects to SMT. Muscle, joint ache (very often) to mild strain/sprain (not often). Any profession who does manual therapy will have those "risks."
- An association (note they didn't claim causation) between CMT and cardiovascular events. If you read the articles I posted, you will also notice there is also an association of those presenting to medical doctors with neck pain and headaches and cardiovascular events. These are exceptionally rare cases - so much so that it is next to impossible to do good scientific research on it as a person needs sufficient cases to study. But I'm sure you know that from reading the articles I hyperlinked, right @runbikerun ?
Post by: Beard N Bones on September 28, 2018, 02:12:23 PM
However, it doesn't change the fact that chiropract*ic* (FTFY) as a profession is quackery and not rooted in any scientific base. It descends from a long tradition of snake oils salesmanship, and will continue to be around as long as the placebo effects exists and the venn diagram intersection of people with painful ailments and people wanting a quick fix is not zero.
Chiropractic is rooted in science, just as medical practice is, just as physiotherapy is, just as massage therapy is. And just because you see chiropractic practiced in your part of the world as woooo woooo, doesn't mean the whole profession is like that. As you said, there are good and bad doctors, lawyers, hair stylists, etc. But just because there are bad doctors, it doesn't mean the whole profession is baseless. And just because some lawyers are unethical, it doesn't mean that the profession is corrupt.
Chiropractic care, specifically spinal manipulative therapy, has been shown to be effective far beyond placebo for many neuromusculoskeletal problems. (What I find really interesting, is that physiotherapists are more and more starting to use spinal manipulation with their clientele...)
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on September 28, 2018, 03:40:18 PM
Maybe this is a good moment to point out that chiropractic is the quackery version of physical therapy with no standardized education nor empirically proven benefits unless where it coincidentally happens to be exactly like physical therapy. It is however proven to occasionally land people in a wheelchair.
You seem to be mistaken and exceptionally biased @barbaz
Here is some reading for you and anyone else that thinks chiropractic is quackery and will land you in a wheelchair. These are just a small sampling of what's out there.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28399251 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28399251)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4336806/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4336806/)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18204390 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18204390)
There are some good and some bad chiros out there, just like there are good and bad doctors, lawyers, hair stylists, etc. And there are many people who could benefit from seeing the right chiropractor.
However, it doesn't change the fact that chiropracty as a profession is quackery and not rooted in any scientific base. It descends from a long tradition of snake oils salesmanship, and will continue to be around as long as the placebo effects exists and the venn diagram intersection of people with painful ailments and people wanting a quick fix is not zero.
The older I get, the more I understand that you do whatever works. I don't have to care why. You don't have to care why. If someone is in chronic pain and chiro works for them, great. If homeopathy works for them, equally great. If praying to a bowl of lemons on their coffee table at 3:12 exactly every afternoon works for them, also great. What or why doesn't matter. What matters is the outcome.
Post by: Gronnie on September 28, 2018, 04:00:42 PM
And on a more direct and specific example, here's a 2007 paper from the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1905885/
The entirety of the paper's conclusions are as follows:
"Spinal manipulation, particularly when performed on the upper spine, is frequently associated with mild to moderate adverse effects. It can also result in serious complications such as vertebral artery dissection followed by stroke. Currently, the incidence of such events is not known. In the interest of patient safety we should reconsider our policy towards the routine use of spinal manipulation."
Here's the American Heart Association in 2014, warning that "most population controlled studies have found an association between CMT (cervical manipulative therapy) and VAD stroke in young patients": https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/str.0000000000000016
Here's the case which started with the British Chiropractic Association suing journalist Simon Singh for libel, and ended with every major British party pledging libel law reform and a quarter of the BCA's members coming under investigation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chiropractic_Association_v_Singh.
My cousin ended up having an artery dissection after a neck manipulation. She has had a couple of strokes since. Early 30s single mother of 2, such a sad story.
Post by: iris lily on September 30, 2018, 09:51:21 AM
However, it doesn't change the fact that chiropract*ic* (FTFY) as a profession is quackery and not rooted in any scientific base. It descends from a long tradition of snake oils salesmanship, and will continue to be around as long as the placebo effects exists and the venn diagram intersection of people with painful ailments and people wanting a quick fix is not zero.
Chiropractic is rooted in science, just as medical practice is, just as physiotherapy is, just as massage therapy is. And just because you see chiropractic practiced in your part of the world as woooo woooo, doesn't mean the whole profession is like that. As you said, there are good and bad doctors, lawyers, hair stylists, etc. But just because there are bad doctors, it doesn't mean the whole profession is baseless. And just because some lawyers are unethical, it doesn't mean that the profession is corrupt.
Chiropractic care, specifically spinal manipulative therapy, has been shown to be effective far beyond placebo for many neuromusculoskeletal problems. (What I find really interesting, is that physiotherapists are more and more starting to use spinal manipulation with their clientele...)
In previous discussions here,
I think we learned that chiro training is different in
Canada than in U.S. so, there may be differences i. What we experience here from treatment ya’ll provide up North.
Maybe.
The best chiro I heard about in recent years took one look at my friend’s spinal xrays and said “I am not toiching this, you need a surgeon to evaluate this.”
Post by: iris lily on September 30, 2018, 09:54:03 AM
And on a more direct and specific example, here's a 2007 paper from the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1905885/
The entirety of the paper's conclusions are as follows:
"Spinal manipulation, particularly when performed on the upper spine, is frequently associated with mild to moderate adverse effects. It can also result in serious complications such as vertebral artery dissection followed by stroke. Currently, the incidence of such events is not known. In the interest of patient safety we should reconsider our policy towards the routine use of spinal manipulation."
Here's the American Heart Association in 2014, warning that "most population controlled studies have found an association between CMT (cervical manipulative therapy) and VAD stroke in young patients": https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/str.0000000000000016
Here's the case which started with the British Chiropractic Association suing journalist Simon Singh for libel, and ended with every major British party pledging libel law reform and a quarter of the BCA's members coming under investigation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chiropractic_Association_v_Singh.
My cousin ended up having an artery dissection after a neck manipulation. She has had a couple of strokes since. Early 30s single mother of 2, such a sad story.
Tragic, indeed.
Post by: BTDretire on October 01, 2018, 08:41:09 AM
I tried an acupuncturist for back/leg pain (two herniated discs)I have read just enough to gain a respect for acupuncture as theoretical treatment. Finding the right practitioner is probably key, as in most treatments. And having reasonsble expectations sbout what the treatment will accomplish, also important.I'd never heard of dry needling before now...
It is acupuncture without the acupuncture training -- tends to be intramuscular vs. the "traditional" Chinese acupuncture points. My acupuncturist actually does a combination of the two (she is sort of a sports-medicine focus and does a number of treatments). She absolutely detests people who advertise dry needling, because, as she says, "I went to school for 8 years to learn how to do things properly and safely; these guys go to one two-week seminar and call themselves experts."
And not to derail the thread into other alternative therapies, but I also feel compelled to say that I was a total non-believer in acupuncture until a year ago -- I am a very anti-woo-woo person. I met my therapist at the gym and made my first appointment with her thinking she was a sports-medicine-focused therapist; when she whipped out the needles I wanted to walk out but thought that would be massively rude. So I figured, well, I'm here, can't hurt. And wow. I am a total believer now and go every week -- I have a permanent spine issue and a rotator cuff issue that I am avoiding, and she manages to get the specific muscles and fascia to release so I can keep working out without seizing up.
I didn't find it to help. The acupuncturist connects wires to the needles and applies varying rhythmic electric pulses to the needles, on one appointment the equipment had a failure and the rhythmic pulses became continuous and didn't reduce in strength. I called out to the doc to turn it off. I ask about the equipment during the next appointment and he said he threw it out.
t
Post by: Spoon on December 30, 2018, 02:14:02 AM
Post by: BTDretire on January 03, 2019, 10:58:51 AM
... and that in the meantime, they are going to "pray that God will provide." What could go wrong?
Ugh. Nothing makes me grind my teeth more than this phrase. Good luck to them.
I might have been tempted to snarkily hypothesize that any deity that exists might think he provided via the opportunity to earn a living after finishing a degree program. Or maybe a unicorn will prance up, bearing bags of cash. Or the teller window at Bank of Dad will open for business.
I have to think the diety is in favor of construction workers after all the people that are either left homeless or have terrible damage to their homes after hurricane Michael.
I went into purchase a cellphone shortly after the hurricane and while waiting, I had an 82 year old man crying after telling me about the destruction to his home and how he never thought he would need to rely on his son for a place to live. I don't think a diety is there to help you with business financing.
Post by: BTDretire on January 03, 2019, 11:13:49 AM
The older I get, the more I understand that you do whatever works. I don't have to care why. You don't have to care why. If someone is in chronic pain and chiro works for them, great. If homeopathy works for them, equally great. If praying to a bowl of lemons on their coffee table at 3:12 exactly every afternoon works for them, also great. What or why doesn't matter. What matters is the outcome.
That's all fine but the risk/reward ratio needs to also be considered.
If you're injured by chiropractic manipulation, or have cancer and someone treats you with homeopathy until it's to late for modern medicine to save you, you lose.
If you are believer in alternative methods, you might want to have a real doctors opinion as a backup just in case there is a treatable problem.
Post by: Cassie on January 03, 2019, 12:07:43 PM
Post by: marty998 on January 03, 2019, 01:47:48 PM
Any chance of an end of year update? I'm hoping for an unexpected twist and the beginnings of behaviour change.
paging @frugalfoothills
Post by: dogboyslim on January 04, 2019, 01:36:39 PM
"At my daily scrum stand-up which is pretty much done via videoconference and no one stands up, we identified a blocker on a 5 pointer, meaning that unless we get the product owner to escalate the resolution our velocity is going to nosedive. So our scrum-master took the issue to the scrum of scurm meeting to see if others had a similar blocker, but it turns out that the issue is that the DB2 license is per server and the SQL license is enterprise, so the product owner that has in 3 consecutive years shot down an upgrade to the DB2 server, is now asking that we just bring in some of the other backlog items to keep the velocity up, btw, her bonus depends on our velocity, while she evaluates the CBA for a server/license upgrade, but the backlog only has like 2 tasks that have been pointed since the business hasn't prioritized the backlog. After we figure this out, I have to explain to the CFO why the AWS bill is so high this month after the marketing department spun up a massive SQL warehouse and essentially duplicated our onsite warehouse so they could learn how to benefit from some real machine learning, even though no one there even knows the difference between a continuous and a categorical variable. I hate my job."
Also, I'm a little surprised that no reckoning has happened with this couple, but if the family doesn't care about being repaid...so be it.
Post by: aetherie on January 04, 2019, 02:15:23 PM
"At my daily scrum stand-up which is pretty much done via videoconference and no one stands up, we identified a blocker on a 5 pointer, meaning that unless we get the product owner to escalate the resolution our velocity is going to nosedive. So our scrum-master took the issue to the scrum of scurm meeting to see if others had a similar blocker, but it turns out that the issue is that the DB2 license is per server and the SQL license is enterprise, so the product owner that has in 3 consecutive years shot down an upgrade to the DB2 server, is now asking that we just bring in some of the other backlog items to keep the velocity up, btw, her bonus depends on our velocity, while she evaluates the CBA for a server/license upgrade, but the backlog only has like 2 tasks that have been pointed since the business hasn't prioritized the backlog. After we figure this out, I have to explain to the CFO why the AWS bill is so high this month after the marketing department spun up a massive SQL warehouse and essentially duplicated our onsite warehouse so they could learn how to benefit from some real machine learning, even though no one there even knows the difference between a continuous and a categorical variable. I hate my job."
I hate that I understood every word of that.
Post by: BicycleB on January 04, 2019, 04:50:40 PM
@aetherie, LOL."At my daily scrum stand-up which is pretty much done via videoconference and no one stands up, we identified a blocker on a 5 pointer, meaning that unless we get the product owner to escalate the resolution our velocity is going to nosedive. So our scrum-master took the issue to the scrum of scurm meeting to see if others had a similar blocker, but it turns out that the issue is that the DB2 license is per server and the SQL license is enterprise, so the product owner that has in 3 consecutive years shot down an upgrade to the DB2 server, is now asking that we just bring in some of the other backlog items to keep the velocity up, btw, her bonus depends on our velocity, while she evaluates the CBA for a server/license upgrade, but the backlog only has like 2 tasks that have been pointed since the business hasn't prioritized the backlog. After we figure this out, I have to explain to the CFO why the AWS bill is so high this month after the marketing department spun up a massive SQL warehouse and essentially duplicated our onsite warehouse so they could learn how to benefit from some real machine learning, even though no one there even knows the difference between a continuous and a categorical variable. I hate my job."
I hate that I understood every word of that.
What I thought after reading it was, "It doesn't matter what technique you use to run a workplace badly. If you run a workplace badly, working there is going to suck."
Post by: Tabitha on January 05, 2019, 10:04:58 AM
... and that in the meantime, they are going to "pray that God will provide." What could go wrong?
Ugh. Nothing makes me grind my teeth more than this phrase. Good luck to them.
Apparently she’s never heard the old saw “The Lord helps those who help themselves”.
Post by: Basenji on January 05, 2019, 04:55:31 PM
Any chance of an end of year update? I'm hoping for an unexpected twist and the beginnings of behaviour change.
paging @frugalfoothills
Yeah, I love this thread and I need a hit.
Post by: iluvzbeach on January 05, 2019, 05:22:37 PM
Post by: Gronnie on January 05, 2019, 07:21:12 PM
"At my daily scrum stand-up which is pretty much done via videoconference and no one stands up, we identified a blocker on a 5 pointer, meaning that unless we get the product owner to escalate the resolution our velocity is going to nosedive. So our scrum-master took the issue to the scrum of scurm meeting to see if others had a similar blocker, but it turns out that the issue is that the DB2 license is per server and the SQL license is enterprise, so the product owner that has in 3 consecutive years shot down an upgrade to the DB2 server, is now asking that we just bring in some of the other backlog items to keep the velocity up, btw, her bonus depends on our velocity, while she evaluates the CBA for a server/license upgrade, but the backlog only has like 2 tasks that have been pointed since the business hasn't prioritized the backlog. After we figure this out, I have to explain to the CFO why the AWS bill is so high this month after the marketing department spun up a massive SQL warehouse and essentially duplicated our onsite warehouse so they could learn how to benefit from some real machine learning, even though no one there even knows the difference between a continuous and a categorical variable. I hate my job."
I hate that I understood every word of that.
Same!
Post by: Dan408 on May 06, 2019, 05:57:06 AM
Post by: Parizade on May 06, 2019, 07:52:06 AM
"At my daily scrum stand-up which is pretty much done via videoconference and no one stands up, we identified a blocker on a 5 pointer, meaning that unless we get the product owner to escalate the resolution our velocity is going to nosedive. So our scrum-master took the issue to the scrum of scurm meeting to see if others had a similar blocker, but it turns out that the issue is that the DB2 license is per server and the SQL license is enterprise, so the product owner that has in 3 consecutive years shot down an upgrade to the DB2 server, is now asking that we just bring in some of the other backlog items to keep the velocity up, btw, her bonus depends on our velocity, while she evaluates the CBA for a server/license upgrade, but the backlog only has like 2 tasks that have been pointed since the business hasn't prioritized the backlog. After we figure this out, I have to explain to the CFO why the AWS bill is so high this month after the marketing department spun up a massive SQL warehouse and essentially duplicated our onsite warehouse so they could learn how to benefit from some real machine learning, even though no one there even knows the difference between a continuous and a categorical variable. I hate my job."
I hate that I understood every word of that.
Same!
I'm hoping to forget it all ASAP after FIRE
Post by: Kierun on June 10, 2019, 06:00:19 PM
Post by: marty998 on June 19, 2019, 03:43:07 PM
Post by: talltexan on June 27, 2019, 11:59:13 AM
Post by: BTDretire on July 11, 2019, 11:00:49 AM
Sending bat signal to @frugalfoothills
frugalfoothills is posting, her last post was yesterday, July 10, 2019, but I haven't located that post.
Post by: kingxiaodi on July 11, 2019, 02:00:35 PM
Sending bat signal to @frugalfoothills
frugalfoothills is posting, her last post was yesterday, July 10, 2019, but I haven't located that post.
Are you sure her last post was yesterday? The most recent post I could find was from March, but she was last active today (I assume she was active today after your post, so when you looked, it likely said yesterday). In fact, she appears to be "online" at this very moment!
In either case, I can only imagine that she will update the post when she is ready to do so. Even if she didn't get the batsignal, I doubt she's forgotten about this thread.
Post by: BTDretire on July 11, 2019, 06:42:23 PM
You are most likely correct, I interpreted active as posting.Sending bat signal to @frugalfoothills
frugalfoothills is posting, her last post was yesterday, July 10, 2019, but I haven't located that post.
Are you sure her last post was yesterday? The most recent post I could find was from March, but she was last active today (I assume she was active today after your post, so when you looked, it likely said yesterday). In fact, she appears to be "online" at this very moment!
In either case, I can only imagine that she will update the post when she is ready to do so. Even if she didn't get the batsignal, I doubt she's forgotten about this thread.
Post by: oldladystache on July 11, 2019, 07:37:07 PM
Post by: Just Joe on July 12, 2019, 01:49:41 PM
Post by: DaMa on July 14, 2019, 10:33:41 AM
Post by: Cannot Wait! on July 14, 2019, 04:19:30 PM
ptf - just enjoyed reading this whole thread!
Me too! But I thought for sure it would have come to an end by now....
I'm guessing they are doing alright; any shortfalls are being helped along by the FIL - who is THRILLED about learning that he is going to a Grandfather!!!
Post by: LilyFleur on July 18, 2019, 08:19:44 PM
I fell for that kind of chiropractic care. The guy did our x-rays and clearly mine was worse than my child's and so he preyed on my emotions and said that with his treatment we can avoid my kid becoming as bad as me. So we prepaid thousands of dollars and went to treatments 2-3x a week for however long. It was an assembly line. He had three tables set up with a half wall divider between, an electronic system that called your name and table number. He would spend <5 mins with each patient and send them on their way. It took a few months that I realized that it was just a sales technique and it was not so much about our health.Whenever I get tightness in my lower back, I do the stretches my physical therapist taught me. Evidently tall women get tight hamstrings which can cause lower back pain. No chiropractor I tried ever helped me as much as my physical therapist.
Now I go to a chiropractor whenever I get tightness in my lower back and I come back on my schedule. This new guy is very easy going and only if the adjustment was particularly difficult will he suggest to come back sooner than I normally would.
Post by: iris lily on July 20, 2019, 09:28:00 AM
ptf - just enjoyed reading this whole thread!
Me too! But I thought for sure it would have come to an end by now....
I'm guessing they are doing alright; any shortfalls are being helped along by the FIL - who is THRILLED about learning that he is going to a Grandfather!!!
And he will buy the young couple a big new SAFE automobile because baby cannot ride in anything UNSAFE, it must be new. And big.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on May 12, 2020, 10:31:11 AM
Post by: bacchi on May 12, 2020, 10:38:37 AM
My brother and sister in law have similar to plans to "be very rich, very soon" They are heavily "invested" in the Iraqi Dinar, which is supposed to "re-value" at 100 to 1. I'm guessing they have bought 10K to 20K of this crap. They even told a family member who is a real estate agent that they need to be looking at 1-2 million dollar homes in the near future. The real estate agent pretty much ignored their request. It's been 3 years and everyone is still waiting.
That's....what??? From where did they hear that?
Post by: Dave1442397 on May 12, 2020, 11:02:31 AM
My brother and sister in law have similar to plans to "be very rich, very soon" They are heavily "invested" in the Iraqi Dinar, which is supposed to "re-value" at 100 to 1. I'm guessing they have bought 10K to 20K of this crap. They even told a family member who is a real estate agent that they need to be looking at 1-2 million dollar homes in the near future. The real estate agent pretty much ignored their request. It's been 3 years and everyone is still waiting.
Even if it does revalue at 100-to-1, don't they realize that it's still worth the same? It's like the old Italian Lira, which they were talking about revaluing before they wet to the euro - https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-02-10-fi-28224-story.html
Post by: talltexan on May 12, 2020, 11:16:34 AM
Post by: UpNAtom on May 12, 2020, 11:41:56 AM
My brother and sister in law have similar to plans to "be very rich, very soon" They are heavily "invested" in the Iraqi Dinar, which is supposed to "re-value" at 100 to 1. I'm guessing they have bought 10K to 20K of this crap. They even told a family member who is a real estate agent that they need to be looking at 1-2 million dollar homes in the near future. The real estate agent pretty much ignored their request. It's been 3 years and everyone is still waiting.
Someone sold them on the wrong definition of re-value.
Post by: Gronnie on May 12, 2020, 12:10:50 PM
Post by: lemanfan on May 12, 2020, 11:00:29 PM
My brother and sister in law have similar to plans to "be very rich, very soon" They are heavily "invested" in the Iraqi Dinar, which is supposed to "re-value" at 100 to 1. I'm guessing they have bought 10K to 20K of this crap. They even told a family member who is a real estate agent that they need to be looking at 1-2 million dollar homes in the near future. The real estate agent pretty much ignored their request. It's been 3 years and everyone is still waiting.
Yeah... becasuse you need an expensive house if you have money.
Post by: Michael in ABQ on May 12, 2020, 11:25:50 PM
My brother and sister in law have similar to plans to "be very rich, very soon" They are heavily "invested" in the Iraqi Dinar, which is supposed to "re-value" at 100 to 1. I'm guessing they have bought 10K to 20K of this crap. They even told a family member who is a real estate agent that they need to be looking at 1-2 million dollar homes in the near future. The real estate agent pretty much ignored their request. It's been 3 years and everyone is still waiting.
My $200 in Iraqi Dinar I bought back in 2005 when I was deployed is now worth..... a whopping $241. Almost all that change in value occurred around 2007-2008. Since then it's been essentially flat. That $200 in any real investment would have easily doubled by now.
Post by: Linea_Norway on May 13, 2020, 07:11:52 AM
I feel your pain. The tension in my family between myself, my parents, and my sister is.... reaching peaks, to say the least. Sister and brother-in-law do not believe in medicine, clean with essential oils only, etc. and have done zero prevention/social distancing. They believe COVID is a hoax, full stop.
<...>
My sister has decided that since this is all fake, she will start seeing my parents. Not worried at all about compromising them. Her and my BIL came to stay with them 2 weeks ago in their home. Took them to the lake last weekend. Hugging, in the house together, zero distancing. My sis and BIL own a chiropractic office and have done nothing to limit their exposure during this entire time: no masks, no gloves, no limits to the number of people entering, still only cleaning with non-toxic products. And are now cozying up to my parents.
<...>
Post by: talltexan on May 13, 2020, 08:27:06 AM
My brother and sister in law have similar to plans to "be very rich, very soon" They are heavily "invested" in the Iraqi Dinar, which is supposed to "re-value" at 100 to 1. I'm guessing they have bought 10K to 20K of this crap. They even told a family member who is a real estate agent that they need to be looking at 1-2 million dollar homes in the near future. The real estate agent pretty much ignored their request. It's been 3 years and everyone is still waiting.
My $200 in Iraqi Dinar I bought back in 2005 when I was deployed is now worth..... a whopping $241. Almost all that change in value occurred around 2007-2008. Since then it's been essentially flat. That $200 in any real investment would have easily doubled by now.
@Michael in ABQ are you holding the dinar as cash? I guess an airport might be able to change them if you don't plan to return to Iraq soon.
Post by: Michael in ABQ on May 13, 2020, 09:55:47 AM
My brother and sister in law have similar to plans to "be very rich, very soon" They are heavily "invested" in the Iraqi Dinar, which is supposed to "re-value" at 100 to 1. I'm guessing they have bought 10K to 20K of this crap. They even told a family member who is a real estate agent that they need to be looking at 1-2 million dollar homes in the near future. The real estate agent pretty much ignored their request. It's been 3 years and everyone is still waiting.
My $200 in Iraqi Dinar I bought back in 2005 when I was deployed is now worth..... a whopping $241. Almost all that change in value occurred around 2007-2008. Since then it's been essentially flat. That $200 in any real investment would have easily doubled by now.
@Michael in ABQ are you holding the dinar as cash? I guess an airport might be able to change them if you don't plan to return to Iraq soon.
They're still with a letter I originally mailed to my parents when I was deployed asking them to hold on to it for me and explaining why I sent them a bundle of foreign currency. At this point they're just souvenirs that I can show my kids. Unless they suddenly revalue them and the value goes up 100x (snowball's chance in hell) I don't see any reason to try and exchange them. I could probably sell them on eBay if I cared to.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on May 13, 2020, 09:29:21 PM
My brother and sister in law have similar to plans to "be very rich, very soon" They are heavily "invested" in the Iraqi Dinar, which is supposed to "re-value" at 100 to 1. I'm guessing they have bought 10K to 20K of this crap. They even told a family member who is a real estate agent that they need to be looking at 1-2 million dollar homes in the near future. The real estate agent pretty much ignored their request. It's been 3 years and everyone is still waiting.
That's....what??? From where did they hear that?
The whole thing wouldn't bother me if they could just keep it to themselves. At every family function, they give a hard sell to everyone that if you want to be a smart investor like them, we need to be doing what they are doing. They give us the Dinar for birthdays ($25 worth) and tell us that I can pay for my kids college education with it.
I teach community college and my kid gets free tuition at any of the 13 different community colleges in our state. Many of them now have 4 year degrees. College is already free. Thanks, but no thanks.
Post by: frugalecon on May 14, 2020, 06:24:23 AM
My brother and sister in law have similar to plans to "be very rich, very soon" They are heavily "invested" in the Iraqi Dinar, which is supposed to "re-value" at 100 to 1. I'm guessing they have bought 10K to 20K of this crap. They even told a family member who is a real estate agent that they need to be looking at 1-2 million dollar homes in the near future. The real estate agent pretty much ignored their request. It's been 3 years and everyone is still waiting.
That's....what??? From where did they hear that?
The whole thing wouldn't bother me if they could just keep it to themselves. At every family function, they give a hard sell to everyone that if you want to be a smart investor like them, we need to be doing what they are doing. They give us the Dinar for birthdays ($25 worth) and tell us that I can pay for my kids college education with it.
I teach community college and my kid gets free tuition at any of the 13 different community colleges in our state. Many of them now have 4 year degrees. College is already free. Thanks, but no thanks.
These dinar theorists seem to have no understanding of how currency works. Do they really think that the Iraqi government can wave a magic wand and you will be able to buy 100 times as much worth of commodities for the same amount of dinar? The only way that could happen is if the Iraqi government would exchange dinars for 100 times the amount of US dollars as before. Color me skeptical.
Post by: YttriumNitrate on May 14, 2020, 07:08:40 AM
The whole thing wouldn't bother me if they could just keep it to themselves. At every family function, they give a hard sell to everyone that if you want to be a smart investor like them, we need to be doing what they are doing. They give us the Dinar for birthdays ($25 worth) and tell us that I can pay for my kids college education with it.
I teach community college and my kid gets free tuition at any of the 13 different community colleges in our state. Many of them now have 4 year degrees. College is already free. Thanks, but no thanks.
Clearly you need to start one upping them by giving Zimbabwe dollars as presents in return.
Post by: talltexan on May 14, 2020, 09:11:21 AM
Post by: clarkfan1979 on May 14, 2020, 12:04:44 PM
My brother and sister in law have similar to plans to "be very rich, very soon" They are heavily "invested" in the Iraqi Dinar, which is supposed to "re-value" at 100 to 1. I'm guessing they have bought 10K to 20K of this crap. They even told a family member who is a real estate agent that they need to be looking at 1-2 million dollar homes in the near future. The real estate agent pretty much ignored their request. It's been 3 years and everyone is still waiting.
That's....what??? From where did they hear that?
The whole thing wouldn't bother me if they could just keep it to themselves. At every family function, they give a hard sell to everyone that if you want to be a smart investor like them, we need to be doing what they are doing. They give us the Dinar for birthdays ($25 worth) and tell us that I can pay for my kids college education with it.
I teach community college and my kid gets free tuition at any of the 13 different community colleges in our state. Many of them now have 4 year degrees. College is already free. Thanks, but no thanks.
These dinar theorists seem to have no understanding of how currency works. Do they really think that the Iraqi government can wave a magic wand and you will be able to buy 100 times as much worth of commodities for the same amount of dinar? The only way that could happen is if the Iraqi government would exchange dinars for 100 times the amount of US dollars as before. Color me skeptical.
Yes, I agree 100%. Their thought process is more consistent with the "magic wand theory" than actual theory within economics. The closest thing to a real economic theory for the re-evaluation is Iraqi oil reserves. Iraqi is an oil rich country and they will use that to increase the value of their currency.
Because oil was negative a few weeks ago I should have told my brother that he needs to give me United States currency for me to accept the Iraqi Dinar.
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on June 05, 2021, 12:43:59 PM
Post by: Dicey on June 05, 2021, 04:10:26 PM
Last Active: January 28, 2021, 11:49:09 AM
Post by: solon on June 05, 2021, 04:36:59 PM
Post by: Metalcat on June 05, 2021, 05:06:31 PM
@clarkfan1979, we would love an update on your dinar-loving brother too. I'm kind of curious why he thinks the value will be going up so drastically?
This is a thing that pops up now and then, I've been hearing about it for years. I don't know where it comes from, but every once in awhile I'll talk to some moron who thinks they're going to end up rich because of it.
Post by: Michael in ABQ on June 05, 2021, 07:03:24 PM
@clarkfan1979, we would love an update on your dinar-loving brother too. I'm kind of curious why he thinks the value will be going up so drastically?
This is a thing that pops up now and then, I've been hearing about it for years. I don't know where it comes from, but every once in awhile I'll talk to some moron who thinks they're going to end up rich because of it.
I bought $200 worth of Iraqi Dinar in 2004 when I was deployed over there - about 250,000 IQD. Today it's worth about the same, maybe a bit less. It's a neat thing to show my kids but as an "investment" it's worthless.
Post by: BicycleB on June 06, 2021, 07:52:49 AM
@clarkfan1979, we would love an update on your dinar-loving brother too. I'm kind of curious why he thinks the value will be going up so drastically?
This is a thing that pops up now and then, I've been hearing about it for years. I don't know where it comes from, but every once in awhile I'll talk to some moron who thinks they're going to end up rich because of it.
I bought $200 worth of Iraqi Dinar in 2004 when I was deployed over there - about 250,000 IQD. Today it's worth about the same, maybe a bit less. It's a neat thing to show my kids but as an "investment" it's worthless.
Maybe you should tell them it's the 2004 version of crypto
Post by: clarkfan1979 on June 12, 2021, 01:22:51 AM
@clarkfan1979, we would love an update on your dinar-loving brother too. I'm kind of curious why he thinks the value will be going up so drastically?
I might be able go provide an update in about 3 weeks. It's my step-dad's 70th birthday party and we will be hanging out and playing golf. He hasn't spoke about the Dinar in over a year. I've been trying to discourage it. I guess I have succeeded.
He has spoke about cryptocurrency. I think he is buying fake crypto that is worth nothing. He has been trying to convince my step-sister who is a realtor to let him make offers on houses in crypto. She has suggested that he sell the crypto for US currency and then make an offer in US currency. He has some sort of excuse on why it can't be exchanged for real money.
In other money matters, they sold his wife's house in January of 2020 and bought an RV. They successfully traded an appreciating asset for a depreciating asset. According to zillow, over the past 18 months, the neighborhood has appreciated by 24%. They had a mortgage, so this was leveraged money. They bought their used RV for 60K. I'm guessing it's worth 55K now?
Post by: AMandM on June 14, 2021, 10:58:44 AM
He has spoke about cryptocurrency. I think he is buying fake crypto that is worth nothing. He has been trying to convince my step-sister who is a realtor to let him make offers on houses in crypto. She has suggested that he sell the crypto for US currency and then make an offer in US currency. He has some sort of excuse on why it can't be exchanged for real money.
But a house seller should be happy to exchange it for real house. Uh huh.
Post by: AlanStache on June 14, 2021, 11:15:36 AM
He has spoke about cryptocurrency. I think he is buying fake crypto that is worth nothing. He has been trying to convince my step-sister who is a realtor to let him make offers on houses in crypto. She has suggested that he sell the crypto for US currency and then make an offer in US currency. He has some sort of excuse on why it can't be exchanged for real money.
But a house seller should be happy to exchange it for real house. Uh huh.
Selling the crypto may require taxes be paid but trading it for something else (ie a house) may not require taxes. No clue if this is the thought process or if its even remotely inline with the law/IRS rules (would assume not). Or maybe the crypto is actually an ownership stake in something else that cant be sold or easily equated to dollars but that someone else might want to exchange a house for ...?
Post by: PDXTabs on June 15, 2021, 09:19:42 AM
He has spoke about cryptocurrency. I think he is buying fake crypto that is worth nothing. He has been trying to convince my step-sister who is a realtor to let him make offers on houses in crypto. She has suggested that he sell the crypto for US currency and then make an offer in US currency. He has some sort of excuse on why it can't be exchanged for real money.
But a house seller should be happy to exchange it for real house. Uh huh.
Selling the crypto may require taxes be paid but trading it for something else (ie a house) may not require taxes. No clue if this is the thought process or if its even remotely inline with the law/IRS rules (would assume not). Or maybe the crypto is actually an ownership stake in something else that cant be sold or easily equated to dollars but that someone else might want to exchange a house for ...?
Trading your crypto (or gold) for a house is definitely a taxable event as far as the IRS is concerned. That's actually one of the problems with crypto "currency." Every purchase you make is actually a taxable event.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on June 30, 2021, 08:08:07 AM
I'm confused why they need to withdrawn the money from the bank. Don't you normally do an electronic transfer from your bank?
Post by: oldladystache on June 30, 2021, 10:16:42 AM
Post by: Zamboni on June 30, 2021, 08:14:03 PM
$9,200 is such a specific number. Hmmm. Now I'm intrigued.
Post by: Gronnie on July 01, 2021, 01:38:42 PM
Post by: PDXTabs on July 01, 2021, 02:24:56 PM
At least they have $9200 to withdraw.... the average person can't come up with $500 even when it's an emergency.
Well, sort of. The best data came from the Fed (in 2015) and says that:
To determine individuals’ preparedness for a smallerscale financial disruption, respondents are asked how they would pay for a hypothetical emergency expense that would cost $400. Just over half (54 percent) report that they could fairly easily handle such an expense, paying for it entirely using cash, money currently in their checking/savings account, or on a credit card that they would pay in full at their next statement (collectively referred to here as “cash or its functional equivalent”). The remaining 46 percent indicate that such an expense would be more challenging to handle and that they either could not pay the expense or would borrow or sell something to do so.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/2015-report-economic-well-being-us-households-201605.pdf
Post by: clarkfan1979 on July 05, 2021, 08:02:54 PM
Post by: brooklynmoney on July 05, 2021, 09:26:41 PM
Post by: zolotiyeruki on July 06, 2021, 05:28:46 PM
$9200 sounds conveniently close to but under the 10k transaction limit beyond which your transaction gets flagged to the feds.That's exactly the thought I had!
Post by: partgypsy on July 12, 2021, 06:13:41 AM
@clarkfan1979, we would love an update on your dinar-loving brother too. I'm kind of curious why he thinks the value will be going up so drastically?
This is a thing that pops up now and then, I've been hearing about it for years. I don't know where it comes from, but every once in awhile I'll talk to some moron who thinks they're going to end up rich because of it.
I read this @clarkfan1979 , and then I read about the $9,200. So now I need to give you a caution here.
So, this sounds remarkably like the Philippines "gold" finding scam (example (https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-daughter-investigates-the-scam-that-trapped-her-late-father)) that pops up occasionally, as well as various other scams.
I was going to say--before I read the posts about the $9,200--that you should be careful because there may be some "broker" involved and they may be doing cash transactions or the like, figuring out unconventional ways to wire money, or so on. You have now confirmed (via the $9,200) even further that it sure sounds like that sort of transaction.
Literally: this is setting off all of the red flags. Your relatives won't want to hear it, so I don't know whether you tell them, but this sounds like an obvious scam.
And, to confirm: it's a known scam. I searched for "gold" on reddit.com/r/scams to see if the Philippine one I've run into repeatedly pops up there, and it did, but, more interestingly, I then searched "dinar" and guess what's a known scam? Selling "dinar" as an investment. It had all the hallmarks of a scam already, from your description, and it turns out that a search for "dinar" shows you that people have tried this exact type of scam before. (Here's a particularly far-out version (https://www.reddit.com/r/Scams/comments/bp1vnz/bigcalluniversecom_become_a_millionaire_with/).)
Pro tip: one can buy options and cover those options for currencies if you want to bet on them--one does not need to withdrawn $9,200 to shuffle it to some weird place to do that. That's what scammers do. There are no actual dinar involved; it's a straight-up scam. It'll turn on some friend-of-a-friend or random broker guy who's actually making off with all of the money (or at least a finder's fee).
So, your family is getting scammed. But like a religion, they are unlikely to take it well if told, because they have $9,200+ reasons to want to disbelieve you. That doesn't mean you keep it to yourself, but it's a caution because I've had to deliver similarly bad news before and even with a good approach, it usually lands like a rock with someone who has already bought into it. (See also: MLMs, and that never-ending thread about them.)
Anyhow, I hate to tell you that, @clarkfan1979 , but I also don't think that's any surprise to you.
I would bet hard cash your family is getting scammed. Is there anyone they trust you can get them to talk to about this? Pastor, financial advisor, another family member?
Post by: clarkfan1979 on July 13, 2021, 09:22:51 AM
@clarkfan1979, we would love an update on your dinar-loving brother too. I'm kind of curious why he thinks the value will be going up so drastically?
This is a thing that pops up now and then, I've been hearing about it for years. I don't know where it comes from, but every once in awhile I'll talk to some moron who thinks they're going to end up rich because of it.
I read this @clarkfan1979 , and then I read about the $9,200. So now I need to give you a caution here.
So, this sounds remarkably like the Philippines "gold" finding scam (example (https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-daughter-investigates-the-scam-that-trapped-her-late-father)) that pops up occasionally, as well as various other scams.
I was going to say--before I read the posts about the $9,200--that you should be careful because there may be some "broker" involved and they may be doing cash transactions or the like, figuring out unconventional ways to wire money, or so on. You have now confirmed (via the $9,200) even further that it sure sounds like that sort of transaction.
Literally: this is setting off all of the red flags. Your relatives won't want to hear it, so I don't know whether you tell them, but this sounds like an obvious scam.
And, to confirm: it's a known scam. I searched for "gold" on reddit.com/r/scams to see if the Philippine one I've run into repeatedly pops up there, and it did, but, more interestingly, I then searched "dinar" and guess what's a known scam? Selling "dinar" as an investment. It had all the hallmarks of a scam already, from your description, and it turns out that a search for "dinar" shows you that people have tried this exact type of scam before. (Here's a particularly far-out version (https://www.reddit.com/r/Scams/comments/bp1vnz/bigcalluniversecom_become_a_millionaire_with/).)
Pro tip: one can buy options and cover those options for currencies if you want to bet on them--one does not need to withdraw $9,200 to shuffle it to some weird place to do that. That's what scammers do. There are no actual dinar involved; it's a straight-up scam. It'll turn on some friend-of-a-friend or random broker guy who's actually making off with all of the money (or at least a finder's fee).
So, your family is getting scammed. But like a religion, they are unlikely to take it well if told, because they have $9,200+ reasons to want to disbelieve you. That doesn't mean you keep it to yourself, but it's a caution because I've had to deliver similarly bad news before and even with a good approach, it usually lands like a rock with someone who has already bought into it. (See also: MLMs, and that never-ending thread about them.)
Anyhow, I hate to tell you that, @clarkfan1979 , but I also don't think that's any surprise to you.
I'm not surprised. This has always been my best guess. They have been getting scammed for 4-5 years and continue to believe. It's not possible for an outsider to change their minds, which includes me.
I do have one last nuggest from my trip. I went golfing with my brother and his friends. His friend told me that he won $1,000 off of my brother from the last Presidental election. He had to tell me about it because it was no ordinary bet.
Well, it started off as an ordinary bet. Friend had Biden and my brother had Trump for $50. No big deal. However, one week after the election was certified my brother claimed that there was no way Biden was going to be sworn in as President. His friend would comment that it's pretty much a done deal. My brother then asked to increase the bet to any amount that he felt comfortable. Feeling pretty confident about the results, one week after being certified, the friend said, "$1,000". My brother response was, "done"
They both sent $1,000 to another friend to hold the money and be released on inauguration day. On inauguration day, my brother lost the bet and the friend got his $1,000.
Anything is possible, but if I'm making that bet, I'm going to want 10,000 to 1 odds. To make that bet with even odds is incredibly misguided, in my opinion. I could chose other words, but he is my brother and overall, a decent guy.
Post by: BicycleB on July 13, 2021, 04:10:38 PM
Post by: Zamboni on July 13, 2021, 07:46:43 PM
A weird affliction, and we are glad you didn't inherit that gene!
Post by: clarkfan1979 on July 18, 2021, 02:11:10 PM
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
Post by: SunnyDays on July 18, 2021, 02:59:20 PM
My brother is going to be in Miami for a business opportunity for 1-2 months. It involves transporting precious metals.
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
Yikes, that could be a drug deal. Hollowed out "gold" bars, maybe. You might want to give him a heads up on that.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on July 18, 2021, 03:27:52 PM
My brother is going to be in Miami for a business opportunity for 1-2 months. It involves transporting precious metals.
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
Yikes, that could be a drug deal. Hollowed out "gold" bars, maybe. You might want to give him a heads up on that.
I originally posted, "precious metals". However, it's "precious stones" Sorry for any confusion.
I'm not going to say anything. He has been doing stuff like this for the past 4-5 years. If I try to give unsolicited advice, it doesn't go well.
Post by: Metalcat on July 18, 2021, 04:36:29 PM
My brother is going to be in Miami for a business opportunity for 1-2 months. It involves transporting precious metals.
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
Yikes, that could be a drug deal. Hollowed out "gold" bars, maybe. You might want to give him a heads up on that.
I originally posted, "precious metals". However, it's "precious stones" Sorry for any confusion.
I'm not going to say anything. He has been doing stuff like this for the past 4-5 years. If I try to give unsolicited advice, it doesn't go well.
Super weird.
Post by: Sibley on July 18, 2021, 07:44:14 PM
Post by: Zamboni on July 19, 2021, 12:22:30 AM
My brother is going to be in Miami for a business opportunity for 1-2 months. It involves transporting precious metals.
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
Yikes, that could be a drug deal. Hollowed out "gold" bars, maybe. You might want to give him a heads up on that.
I originally posted, "precious metals". However, it's "precious stones" Sorry for any confusion.
I'm not going to say anything. He has been doing stuff like this for the past 4-5 years. If I try to give unsolicited advice, it doesn't go well.
You don't have to give advice, but I think it's okay to ask him lots of questions. Along the lines of "I love you, brother, and I'm really curious how all of this works." Then you could maybe ask things like:
How long have you been interested in the diamond trade?
My friend went to gemology school . . . do you think this is a career path for you?
I'm just curious, how did someone find out about this opportunity?
How long have you known these folks?
Wow, congrats! Do you think there is a catch?
Even asking questions might make him mad, though, I acknowledge that. You can always just go with "It just seems too good to be true, which weirds me out, man, and I love you. You're smart, so I'm sure you will figure it out, and sorry for all my questions."
Post by: six-car-habit on July 19, 2021, 12:27:40 AM
The seller then shows a stone that they claim is fake, and prove it to you by crushing the stone [glass?], gaining your trust. But when the real "family jewels" are put to the crush test, they stay intact and beautiful !! The opportunity to buy is fleeting, the seller doesn't want to deal with the local jeweler, and hopefully you'll recognize the windfall you've stumbled into...
Perhaps your brother will be walking the beaches of Miami, bothering tourists with a similar fine wooden box holding precious gems....
Post by: AlanStache on July 19, 2021, 08:01:10 AM
My brother is going to be in Miami for a business opportunity for 1-2 months. It involves transporting precious stones.
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
Ask if you can invest in his trip, cover his travel and get back a cut of his profit. This approach might reveal if he feels its safe enough to involve family?
Post by: Sibley on July 19, 2021, 08:04:49 AM
My brother is going to be in Miami for a business opportunity for 1-2 months. It involves transporting precious stones.
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
Ask if you can invest in his trip, cover his travel and get back a cut of his profit. This approach might reveal if he feels its safe enough to involve family?
Yeah.... no. Not unless OP wants to risk getting caught up in a federal indictment. If it is laundering money in some way, you REALLY don't want to get involved.
Post by: Metalcat on July 19, 2021, 09:13:29 AM
My brother is going to be in Miami for a business opportunity for 1-2 months. It involves transporting precious stones.
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
Ask if you can invest in his trip, cover his travel and get back a cut of his profit. This approach might reveal if he feels its safe enough to involve family?
Ask to get involved in the likely very illegal thing that the brother is involved in that he very possibly doesn't realize is very illegal???
How is that a good idea?
Post by: AlanStache on July 19, 2021, 11:19:51 AM
My brother is going to be in Miami for a business opportunity for 1-2 months. It involves transporting precious stones.
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
Ask if you can invest in his trip, cover his travel and get back a cut of his profit. This approach might reveal if he feels its safe enough to involve family?
Ask to get involved in the likely very illegal thing that the brother is involved in that he very possibly doesn't realize is very illegal???
How is that a good idea?
I did not say to get involved but if there is a way to ask without a "paper" trail it might reveal his understanding of the risk/legality of the endeavor. He may not know it is illegal but may know it involves shady characters the he would not want his brother involved with.
Or not, and I will move back to my swim lane :-p
Post by: Metalcat on July 19, 2021, 11:28:04 AM
My brother is going to be in Miami for a business opportunity for 1-2 months. It involves transporting precious stones.
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
Ask if you can invest in his trip, cover his travel and get back a cut of his profit. This approach might reveal if he feels its safe enough to involve family?
Ask to get involved in the likely very illegal thing that the brother is involved in that he very possibly doesn't realize is very illegal???
How is that a good idea?
I did not say to get involved but if there is a way to ask without a "paper" trail it might reveal his understanding of the risk/legality of the endeavor. He may not know it is illegal but may know it involves shady characters the he would not want his brother involved with.
Or not, and I will move back to my swim lane :-p
Ahh, I thought you were actually suggesting getting involved. I was so confused, but looking back I now see what you meant.
Post by: AlanStache on July 19, 2021, 11:47:21 AM
My brother is going to be in Miami for a business opportunity for 1-2 months. It involves transporting precious stones.
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
Ask if you can invest in his trip, cover his travel and get back a cut of his profit. This approach might reveal if he feels its safe enough to involve family?
Ask to get involved in the likely very illegal thing that the brother is involved in that he very possibly doesn't realize is very illegal???
How is that a good idea?
I did not say to get involved but if there is a way to ask without a "paper" trail it might reveal his understanding of the risk/legality of the endeavor. He may not know it is illegal but may know it involves shady characters the he would not want his brother involved with.
Or not, and I will move back to my swim lane :-p
Ahh, I thought you were actually suggesting getting involved. I was so confused, but looking back I now see what you meant.
I am but a lowly padawan in the ways of words.
Post by: BicycleB on July 19, 2021, 12:28:01 PM
I very much hope you stay out of their adventure unless they ask you for bail money and maybe a lawyer. I have lined up a lawyer referral before for a friend just in case, which they later appreciated, and it might be a good idea here. More difficult of course if you don't know the jurisdiction. If they mention what city they're going to, maybe you can prepare.
For me that feels better than "I can't do anything." YMMV!
Post by: Zamboni on July 19, 2021, 09:59:07 PM
https://www.wral.com/former-unc-ch-professor-duped-by-drug-cartel-says-phony-evidence-used-to-convict-fire-him/17112103/ (https://www.wral.com/former-unc-ch-professor-duped-by-drug-cartel-says-phony-evidence-used-to-convict-fire-him/17112103/)
And the fake gemstones scam is absolutely a thing even if it isn't for laundering drug money. Just go on a trip to Mexico and see how many little jewelry stores there are in the towns surrounding resort areas . . . all claiming to have legitimate, natural stones for a tiny fraction of what you would pay anywhere else in the world.
Post by: Metalcat on July 19, 2021, 10:58:33 PM
Every time I hear about these types of shenanigans, it reminds me of this guy:
https://www.wral.com/former-unc-ch-professor-duped-by-drug-cartel-says-phony-evidence-used-to-convict-fire-him/17112103/ (https://www.wral.com/former-unc-ch-professor-duped-by-drug-cartel-says-phony-evidence-used-to-convict-fire-him/17112103/)
And the fake gemstones scam is absolutely a thing even if it isn't for laundering drug money. Just go on a trip to Mexico and see how many little jewelry stores there are in the towns surrounding resort areas . . . all claiming to have legitimate, natural stones for a tiny fraction of what you would pay anywhere else in the world.
I had the opposite experience in a tourist town in Mexico. The prices at the stores were so outrageously high, it was fucking unbelievable. I had never been before, so thought I might be able to find some good jewelry deals because I still wore it back then.
I know my jewelry, so when I tried on a ruby and diamond pendent set in silver, I just about spit out my drink when the guy showed me the price was $11,000 USD, but he would give it to me for $7000. It was worth $2000 max, absolute, high end retail, bought at a boutique in an expensive hotel where the prices are gross, MAX. Probably closer to $1000 from one of my old no-nonsense, no-frills Montreal jewelers.
It was the same at all the stores. I started really enjoying my shopping experience because it was fun to see just how absurd the prices were for the rich, stupid tourists. Same with the spas that tried to sell me $700 in skin creams by literally dragging me off the street and slathering goo on my hands.
It was wild, literally not a single vendor for a 20 block stretch had a reasonable price. This was a commercial Street right behind all of the crazy expensive resorts in an area where leaving that one, heavily guarded strip wasn't safe. So I guess the vendors had a literally captive audience of rich, bored tourists willing to part with huge sums of money.
Post by: Zamboni on July 21, 2021, 07:43:30 PM
Every time I hear about these types of shenanigans, it reminds me of this guy:
https://www.wral.com/former-unc-ch-professor-duped-by-drug-cartel-says-phony-evidence-used-to-convict-fire-him/17112103/ (https://www.wral.com/former-unc-ch-professor-duped-by-drug-cartel-says-phony-evidence-used-to-convict-fire-him/17112103/)
And the fake gemstones scam is absolutely a thing even if it isn't for laundering drug money. Just go on a trip to Mexico and see how many little jewelry stores there are in the towns surrounding resort areas . . . all claiming to have legitimate, natural stones for a tiny fraction of what you would pay anywhere else in the world.
I had the opposite experience in a tourist town in Mexico. The prices at the stores were so outrageously high, it was fucking unbelievable. I had never been before, so thought I might be able to find some good jewelry deals because I still wore it back then.
I know my jewelry, so when I tried on a ruby and diamond pendent set in silver, I just about spit out my drink when the guy showed me the price was $11,000 USD, but he would give it to me for $7000. It was worth $2000 max, absolute, high end retail, bought at a boutique in an expensive hotel where the prices are gross, MAX. Probably closer to $1000 from one of my old no-nonsense, no-frills Montreal jewelers.
It was the same at all the stores. I started really enjoying my shopping experience because it was fun to see just how absurd the prices were for the rich, stupid tourists. Same with the spas that tried to sell me $700 in skin creams by literally dragging me off the street and slathering goo on my hands.
It was wild, literally not a single vendor for a 20 block stretch had a reasonable price. This was a commercial Street right behind all of the crazy expensive resorts in an area where leaving that one, heavily guarded strip wasn't safe. So I guess the vendors had a literally captive audience of rich, bored tourists willing to part with huge sums of money.
Lol, yes, I am also familiar with these areas of Mexico. I was with someone once who bought a $145 (USD) bottle of tequila from one of the places along a street like that. I was like "Dude!" but he still seems very happy with that purchase to this day.
Hilariously, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it is all the same stones. I have looked at enough examples of natural emeralds vs. synthetic emeralds to know that most of what I am seeing in those stores is synthetic, at best. Synthetic stones are not as valuable, for whatever reason, even if they are just a pretty or prettier. Not being a gemologist, I would never spend a large sum of money on a stone, although I do like pretty jewelry that doesn't cost a ton.
Post by: Metalcat on July 22, 2021, 06:41:00 AM
Every time I hear about these types of shenanigans, it reminds me of this guy:
https://www.wral.com/former-unc-ch-professor-duped-by-drug-cartel-says-phony-evidence-used-to-convict-fire-him/17112103/ (https://www.wral.com/former-unc-ch-professor-duped-by-drug-cartel-says-phony-evidence-used-to-convict-fire-him/17112103/)
And the fake gemstones scam is absolutely a thing even if it isn't for laundering drug money. Just go on a trip to Mexico and see how many little jewelry stores there are in the towns surrounding resort areas . . . all claiming to have legitimate, natural stones for a tiny fraction of what you would pay anywhere else in the world.
I had the opposite experience in a tourist town in Mexico. The prices at the stores were so outrageously high, it was fucking unbelievable. I had never been before, so thought I might be able to find some good jewelry deals because I still wore it back then.
I know my jewelry, so when I tried on a ruby and diamond pendent set in silver, I just about spit out my drink when the guy showed me the price was $11,000 USD, but he would give it to me for $7000. It was worth $2000 max, absolute, high end retail, bought at a boutique in an expensive hotel where the prices are gross, MAX. Probably closer to $1000 from one of my old no-nonsense, no-frills Montreal jewelers.
It was the same at all the stores. I started really enjoying my shopping experience because it was fun to see just how absurd the prices were for the rich, stupid tourists. Same with the spas that tried to sell me $700 in skin creams by literally dragging me off the street and slathering goo on my hands.
It was wild, literally not a single vendor for a 20 block stretch had a reasonable price. This was a commercial Street right behind all of the crazy expensive resorts in an area where leaving that one, heavily guarded strip wasn't safe. So I guess the vendors had a literally captive audience of rich, bored tourists willing to part with huge sums of money.
Lol, yes, I am also familiar with these areas of Mexico. I was with someone once who bought a $145 (USD) bottle of tequila from one of the places along a street like that. I was like "Dude!" but he still seems very happy with that purchase to this day.
Hilariously, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it is all the same stones. I have looked at enough examples of natural emeralds vs. synthetic emeralds to know that most of what I am seeing in those stores is synthetic, at best. Synthetic stones are not as valuable, for whatever reason, even if they are just a pretty or prettier. Not being a gemologist, I would never spend a large sum of money on a stone, although I do like pretty jewelry that doesn't cost a ton.
Do you mean lab grown emeralds? Because lab grown emeralds, rubies, and sapphires are all still chemically identical to the natural stones. The lab versions of these stones do look super fake, but not because they're different from natural stones, it's because they're abnormally flawless. So ironically, cheap, lab grown emeralds, rubies, and sapphires are cheap because they're so perfect they look fake.
But yes, although the necklace I was talking about was natural stones, I did see a lot of places selling lab stones for prices that would be extreme even for natural stones.
I saw a lot of giant diamond ring wearing ladies buying this obscenely overpriced crap thinking they were getting great deals. It was bizarre.
Post by: AlanStache on July 22, 2021, 07:34:06 AM
...
I saw a lot of giant diamond ring wearing ladies buying this obscenely overpriced crap thinking they were getting great deals. It was bizarre.
Maybe that crap was cheap compared to Beverly Hills? Also they were buying the story of how & where they bought the rocks, "oh yes thank you, I do love wearing this piece, we picked it out a few years back in cobo, the prices down there are just so cheap you almost have to buy. We love spending time down there...." My general dr has done similar to this with his watches, unprompted, like I dont care about your trip to Miami to meet your watch guy, can we get back to my sore throat?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on July 22, 2021, 09:19:29 AM
Also they were buying the story of how & where they bought the rocks, "oh yes thank you, I do love wearing this piece, we picked it out a few years back in cobo, the prices down there are just so cheap you almost have to buy. We love spending time down there...." My general dr has done similar to this with his watches, unprompted, like I dont care about your trip to Miami to meet your watch guy, can we get back to my sore throat?
Don't most of us do this? I buy fibre (for spinning) when I am on vacation - "I got this alpaca in BC, I got that alpaca in New Zealand" - so they are good stories and spinning them brings back good memories. Good alpaca fibre is good alpaca fibre no matter where the animal lives, but the buying it on holiday is fun.
Of course I am not buying horrible fibre or paying massive overcharges when I buy it on vacation. ;-)
Post by: iris lily on July 22, 2021, 11:23:21 AM
I have a lot of respect for Czcech artistry. They are well-known for their cool long history of amazing craftwork and commercial art, but it’s hard to get behind the scenes to see the real artistry.
I took a tour of the Mozar glass factory in the gorgeous little tourist town of Carlos Verary, not far from Prague. They let the tourists walk through the glass blowing factory. I’m not a fan of modern glass so I’m not much interested in their commercial pieces. I do love the Victorian Mozer pieces though.
Post by: Zamboni on July 22, 2021, 11:03:45 PM
Do you mean lab grown emeralds? Because lab grown emeralds, rubies, and sapphires are all still chemically identical to the natural stones. The lab versions of these stones do look super fake, but not because they're different from natural stones, it's because they're abnormally flawless. So ironically, cheap, lab grown emeralds, rubies, and sapphires are cheap because they're so perfect they look fake.
But yes, although the necklace I was talking about was natural stones, I did see a lot of places selling lab stones for prices that would be extreme even for natural stones.
I saw a lot of giant diamond ring wearing ladies buying this obscenely overpriced crap thinking they were getting great deals. It was bizarre.
Yes, by synthetic I mean lab grown. Here's the thing: beautiful gems can be made fairly cheaply, so why do gems still cost so much? And why do natural stones (which have flaws) cost even more? Yes, I understand that mining gemstones is expensive . . . but why is that mining still happening? The entire gem market has become a total racket, if you ask me.
I understand sentimental value of family jewelry, but beyond that I am just stumped. If anyone presented me with any sort "invest in gemstones" scheme, I would laugh right in their face.
Post by: Metalcat on July 23, 2021, 05:58:00 AM
Do you mean lab grown emeralds? Because lab grown emeralds, rubies, and sapphires are all still chemically identical to the natural stones. The lab versions of these stones do look super fake, but not because they're different from natural stones, it's because they're abnormally flawless. So ironically, cheap, lab grown emeralds, rubies, and sapphires are cheap because they're so perfect they look fake.
But yes, although the necklace I was talking about was natural stones, I did see a lot of places selling lab stones for prices that would be extreme even for natural stones.
I saw a lot of giant diamond ring wearing ladies buying this obscenely overpriced crap thinking they were getting great deals. It was bizarre.
Yes, by synthetic I mean lab grown. Here's the thing: beautiful gems can be made fairly cheaply, so why do gems still cost so much? And why do natural stones (which have flaws) cost even more? Yes, I understand that mining gemstones is expensive . . . but why is that mining still happening? The entire gem market has become a total racket, if you ask me.
I understand sentimental value of family jewelry, but beyond that I am just stumped. If anyone presented me with any sort "invest in gemstones" scheme, I would laugh right in their face.
When was the gemstone market *NOT* a total racket. You talk about it as if it hasn't always been a corrupt, price fixing mess.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on August 12, 2021, 08:46:43 AM
Do you mean lab grown emeralds? Because lab grown emeralds, rubies, and sapphires are all still chemically identical to the natural stones. The lab versions of these stones do look super fake, but not because they're different from natural stones, it's because they're abnormally flawless. So ironically, cheap, lab grown emeralds, rubies, and sapphires are cheap because they're so perfect they look fake.
But yes, although the necklace I was talking about was natural stones, I did see a lot of places selling lab stones for prices that would be extreme even for natural stones.
I saw a lot of giant diamond ring wearing ladies buying this obscenely overpriced crap thinking they were getting great deals. It was bizarre.
Yes, by synthetic I mean lab grown. Here's the thing: beautiful gems can be made fairly cheaply, so why do gems still cost so much? And why do natural stones (which have flaws) cost even more? Yes, I understand that mining gemstones is expensive . . . but why is that mining still happening? The entire gem market has become a total racket, if you ask me.
I understand sentimental value of family jewelry, but beyond that I am just stumped. If anyone presented me with any sort "invest in gemstones" scheme, I would laugh right in their face.
When was the gemstone market *NOT* a total racket. You talk about it as if it hasn't always been a corrupt, price fixing mess.
I spoke with my dad and he said my brother might be "buying and selling" precious stones and not "transporting" them. I will continue to provide updates as they become available.
Post by: ender on August 13, 2021, 06:00:38 AM
Do you mean lab grown emeralds? Because lab grown emeralds, rubies, and sapphires are all still chemically identical to the natural stones. The lab versions of these stones do look super fake, but not because they're different from natural stones, it's because they're abnormally flawless. So ironically, cheap, lab grown emeralds, rubies, and sapphires are cheap because they're so perfect they look fake.
But yes, although the necklace I was talking about was natural stones, I did see a lot of places selling lab stones for prices that would be extreme even for natural stones.
I saw a lot of giant diamond ring wearing ladies buying this obscenely overpriced crap thinking they were getting great deals. It was bizarre.
Yes, by synthetic I mean lab grown. Here's the thing: beautiful gems can be made fairly cheaply, so why do gems still cost so much? And why do natural stones (which have flaws) cost even more? Yes, I understand that mining gemstones is expensive . . . but why is that mining still happening? The entire gem market has become a total racket, if you ask me.
I understand sentimental value of family jewelry, but beyond that I am just stumped. If anyone presented me with any sort "invest in gemstones" scheme, I would laugh right in their face.
My wife has a moissanite stone in her wedding ring.
The only downside compared to diamonds is what @Malcat is saying, for larger stones it looks... too good because they are flawless.
Hers is 0.5 carat but I think once you get in to the 1-2+ carat range they look absurdly gaudy because of how flawless they are. Because most people can't have mined stones in that size which are equally valuable due to the insane pricing on them so even if you see someone with a large mined diamond ring, it will never look even as close to the same due to price.
Post by: Metalcat on August 13, 2021, 08:38:42 AM
I spoke with my dad and he said my brother might be "buying and selling" precious stones and not "transporting" them. I will continue to provide updates as they become available.
Oof, that sounds hella sketchy.
Post by: Dave1442397 on August 13, 2021, 12:44:00 PM
I spoke with my dad and he said my brother might be "buying and selling" precious stones and not "transporting" them. I will continue to provide updates as they become available.
Oof, that sounds hella sketchy.
Right? Sounds like he might be buying, and then when he tries to sell finding out that he bought a bunch of pretty glass objects.
Post by: Metalcat on August 13, 2021, 12:52:07 PM
I spoke with my dad and he said my brother might be "buying and selling" precious stones and not "transporting" them. I will continue to provide updates as they become available.
Oof, that sounds hella sketchy.
Right? Sounds like he might be buying, and then when he tries to sell finding out that he bought a bunch of pretty glass objects.
Lol, or it could just be the "gemstones" in a box scam described previously. Whatever it is, unless the guy magically became an expert in the gemstone industry, there's no version of reality where buying and selling gemstones is legit.
Post by: BicycleB on August 13, 2021, 12:59:21 PM
Post by: iris lily on August 27, 2021, 02:29:06 PM
Post by: talltexan on August 27, 2021, 03:06:45 PM
Post by: Metalcat on August 27, 2021, 04:04:21 PM
The only possible conclusion is that it all worked out, and the Family members succeeded in converting their privilege and Father's trust into a legitimate store of enduring value.
If they're anything like the last chiro office I was in, they're selling "natural" Covid prevention treatments.
Post by: partgypsy on October 04, 2021, 10:50:40 AM
Post by: AlanStache on October 04, 2021, 11:27:21 AM
Post by: clarkfan1979 on October 04, 2021, 10:16:36 PM
Can someone set up something to automatically post to this every two months or so, so we can all retain hope that we will get a follow up and this will not get forgotten?
My father returned to his house in Florida a couple days ago where my brother is still residing to take advantage of his "business opportunity". My brother and father will be overlapping by 2-3 days at the house before my brother leaves. I am really hoping for some juicy details from my father (regarding my brothers investments) in the next 1-2 days.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on October 13, 2021, 11:27:09 AM
My dad told me that my brother is buying and selling diamonds and it's going well. My dad told my brother that he owes him $250 for the extra utilities during the 8 week stay. My brother paid him $500 in cash and $1200 in silver bars.
I guess my brother is really big on silver right now. In my opinion, that is way better than the Iraqi Dinar. My dad was super impressed by the $1200 in silver bars and came to the conclusion that my brother must be making good money right now buying and selling diamonds. I personally don't think it means anything.
If he was making so much money, shouldn't he be able to rent an apartment on his own? My brother did end up paying my dad around $850/month for rent & utilities. However, a long-term 2-bed apartment would be around $1200/month + utilities.
I don't really care either way. I just hope he stays safe.
Post by: BicycleB on October 13, 2021, 05:34:48 PM
Well, at least the mystery is a little clearer.
Post by: Metalcat on October 13, 2021, 05:36:18 PM
My dad is a Florida snow-bird and my brother lived at my dad's Florida house for 8 weeks when the house was empty. Now that my dad is back at his Florida's house, my brother vacated. They overlapped at the house for 4 days to visit with one another.
My dad told me that my brother is buying and selling diamonds and it's going well. My dad told my brother that he owes him $250 for the extra utilities during the 8 week stay. My brother paid him $500 in cash and $1200 in silver bars.
I guess my brother is really big on silver right now. In my opinion, that is way better than the Iraqi Dinar. My dad was super impressed by the $1200 in silver bars and came to the conclusion that my brother must be making good money right now buying and selling diamonds. I personally don't think it means anything.
If he was making so much money, shouldn't he be able to rent an apartment on his own? My brother did end up paying my dad around $600/month in rent and $125/month for utilities, which is about half of what a 2-bed apartment would cost.
I don't really care either way. I just hope he stays safe.
That sounds insanely sketchy.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on October 14, 2021, 06:24:47 PM
Post by: Metalcat on October 14, 2021, 06:39:03 PM
It would be interesting to know when my brother started buying silver. He sold his house in summer/fall 2019. If he used the profits to buy silver at $16, he would be up 50% today. Not bad. However, I don't really think that is the case because he was still talking about the Iraqi Dinar around that time. I'm guessing his timeline was closer to within the last 6 months. Over the past 6 months, silver is -9%.
I'm still trying to figure out how someone just randomly gets into buying and selling diamonds, without being any kind of expert or networked in the gemstone world.
It's not a gentle or easy industry, and the prices are pretty set, so there's not a lot of room for middle-man markup, unless dealing in illegal stones.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on October 29, 2021, 09:10:53 PM
Post by: Metalcat on October 29, 2021, 10:12:11 PM
My younger brother's wife announced today at my fathers house that they will both retiring in January 2022 at the age of 40. They have bought a few thousand dollars worth of silver and forecasting that an ounce of silver will go from $24 to $600 by January 2022, which will give them enough to retire. Silver will eventually go over $1,000, but no timeline was given. I can't believe that he is going to reach FI before me. I didn't see that one coming.
Sounds legit ;)
Post by: Michael in ABQ on October 30, 2021, 06:41:57 AM
My younger brother's wife announced today at my fathers house that they will both retiring in January 2022 at the age of 40. They have bought a few thousand dollars worth of silver and forecasting that an ounce of silver will go from $24 to $600 by January 2022, which will give them enough to retire. Silver will eventually go over $1,000, but no timeline was given. I can't believe that he is going to reach FI before me. I didn't see that one coming.
Damn, this is like bitcoin all over again. I never should have sold that 1 oz silver coin on eBay a few years ago for $20. If I'd kept it I would be a thousandaire.
At the very least they probably won't loose much money. They just might be disappointed when silver doesn't take off on a meteoric rise due to no significant change in the underlying supply and demand fundamentals. Well except for the conspiracy theorists claiming that there's a secret conspiracy keeping the price down. Because I'm totally sure silver miners are keeping the price low for their nefarious purposes which the conspiracy theorists never quite explain....
Post by: Dave1442397 on October 30, 2021, 07:22:47 AM
My younger brother's wife announced today at my fathers house that they will both retiring in January 2022 at the age of 40. They have bought a few thousand dollars worth of silver and forecasting that an ounce of silver will go from $24 to $600 by January 2022, which will give them enough to retire. Silver will eventually go over $1,000, but no timeline was given. I can't believe that he is going to reach FI before me. I didn't see that one coming.
Tell 'em to read up on the Hunt brothers :)
https://priceonomics.com/how-the-hunt-brothers-cornered-the-silver-market/
Post by: FIPurpose on October 30, 2021, 11:01:06 AM
One spike back in 1980 where it hit $120 (inflation-adjusted), but otherwise hangs between $10-40 an ounce. And it looks like silver has done poorly in almost every recession.
They're expecting silver to go 5-10x higher than it has every gone historically? I'm sure there are some commodities that could be smart plays, but this sounds ridiculous.
What's worse is that even if silver does end up going to $60-80, they'll be too foolish to actually cash in on their good luck. They'll hang with it as it drops in price expecting any day that it will sky rocket it up to $600.
Post by: Metalcat on October 30, 2021, 01:27:33 PM
This made me look up the historical silver prices https://www.macrotrends.net/1470/historical-silver-prices-100-year-chart (https://www.macrotrends.net/1470/historical-silver-prices-100-year-chart)
One spike back in 1980 where it hit $120 (inflation-adjusted), but otherwise hangs between $10-40 an ounce. And it looks like silver has done poorly in almost every recession.
They're expecting silver to go 5-10x higher than it has every gone historically? I'm sure there are some commodities that could be smart plays, but this sounds ridiculous.
What's worse is that even if silver does end up going to $60-80, they'll be too foolish to actually cash in on their good luck. They'll hang with it as it drops in price expecting any day that it will sky rocket it up to $600.
I absolutely love that they assume that *they* have special knowledge about the future of silver that apparently no one else has, which allows them to buy it so incredibly cheap right now.
Like, do they really believe that professionals whose job it is to know the value of precious metals just...aren't buying it right now??
Post by: havregryn on October 30, 2021, 02:02:42 PM
Post by: BicycleB on October 30, 2021, 04:33:47 PM
Omg, this silver thing must be some deep conspiracy as there is something that now makes sense. My brother in law has had this obnoxious habit of giving our kids really weird, incredibly cheap and tacky presents, like wrapping promo material from his job for them for Christmas and similar stuff that really made us wish he didn't get them anything (we always say no presents and my family doesn't give them anything as agreed). Then this year he suddenly decided to give them each a silver coin. I was really wondering why suddenly that idea but it makes sense now as he is really disturbingly into all kinds of weird conspiracies. So there must be some story about silver making a big breakthrough any day now going around together with all the magic cures for COVID and other Internet nonsense. That would really explain this because I really don't see him spontaneously coming up with this gift idea. Like no way he'd spend that kind of money on our kids if he didn't think he was going to prove that his Internet underbelly knows stuff we sheeple don't.
@havregryn - at least you will have $600 pieces of silver while he gloats! :) #SheepleProfits
Post by: SwordGuy on October 30, 2021, 10:39:25 PM
Some gooberific reasoning in this article.
Post by: Metalcat on October 31, 2021, 05:42:16 AM
https://news.gold-eagle.com/article/expert-investor-believes-silver-price-could-climb-1000/245 (https://news.gold-eagle.com/article/expert-investor-believes-silver-price-could-climb-1000/245)
Some gooberific reasoning in this article.
My *Canadian* gun-toting, anti-vaxxer, conspiracy theory obsessed step brother is going to be RICH because of his 30K in silver coins that he's keeping for "the apocalypse".
...instead of paying off his overdue cc debt.
Post by: Smokystache on October 31, 2021, 07:05:17 AM
It would be interesting to know when my brother started buying silver. He sold his house in summer/fall 2019. If he used the profits to buy silver at $16, he would be up 50% today. ... I'm guessing his timeline was closer to within the last 6 months. Over the past 6 months, silver is -9%.
This would make more sense. Anyone who is convinced that it will go to $600 would only buy it after it has already gone up quite a bit. The "It's already gone up 50%, but will go up 1000% more" pitch is much more convincing to get-rich-quick folks than a more likely "It's at historic lows, so you might make a reasonable return when it goes up (whenever that will be, we don't know)" perspective.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on October 31, 2021, 07:51:30 AM
This made me look up the historical silver prices https://www.macrotrends.net/1470/historical-silver-prices-100-year-chart (https://www.macrotrends.net/1470/historical-silver-prices-100-year-chart)
One spike back in 1980 where it hit $120 (inflation-adjusted), but otherwise hangs between $10-40 an ounce. And it looks like silver has done poorly in almost every recession.
They're expecting silver to go 5-10x higher than it has every gone historically? I'm sure there are some commodities that could be smart plays, but this sounds ridiculous.
What's worse is that even if silver does end up going to $60-80, they'll be too foolish to actually cash in on their good luck. They'll hang with it as it drops in price expecting any day that it will sky rocket it up to $600.
I absolutely love that they assume that *they* have special knowledge about the future of silver that apparently no one else has, which allows them to buy it so incredibly cheap right now.
Like, do they really believe that professionals whose job it is to know the value of precious metals just...aren't buying it right now??
This is probably the hardest part for me to digest. They think they have special knowledge because they are on conspiracy theory websites. It gives them joy, so whatever.
My brother actually went to college and has a BA in business with a minor/concentration in entrepreneurship. He has always been attracted to "big upside", but he used to be connected to reality.
The attraction to silver is news to me. They have been very preachy about the Iraqi Dinar over the past 4-5 years. It's going to re-value and 100X in the next 3-6 months. They have said that for about 4-5 years. They bought me some of it. When I exchanged it to get real U.S. dollars, I only got 70 cents/dollar after transaction fees. Regular banks won't exchange it for the public exchange rate.
They haven't mentioned the Iraqi dinar in about 6-12 months and I just figured out why.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/iraqs-central-bank-devalues-dinar-22-amid-public-74819699
After taking a 22% loss on the devaluation and another 30% for transaction costs to get U.S. currency, they probably lost around 50% over the past 4-5 years. She was "invested" in the dinar about 8 years before meeting my brother.
After getting the bad news about the Dinar in late December, they probably needed 1-2 months to figure out a new plan. Silver had a nice run from $24 in Nov 2020 to $27 in Feb 2021. They probably made their big investment into silver around March 2021 to June 2021 and probably paid $26. They recently bought a little more because it's now down to $24. I'm guessing they are probably down around 7% on their silver investment. I guess that's better than the dinar.
Post by: Metalcat on October 31, 2021, 08:02:13 AM
This made me look up the historical silver prices https://www.macrotrends.net/1470/historical-silver-prices-100-year-chart (https://www.macrotrends.net/1470/historical-silver-prices-100-year-chart)
One spike back in 1980 where it hit $120 (inflation-adjusted), but otherwise hangs between $10-40 an ounce. And it looks like silver has done poorly in almost every recession.
They're expecting silver to go 5-10x higher than it has every gone historically? I'm sure there are some commodities that could be smart plays, but this sounds ridiculous.
What's worse is that even if silver does end up going to $60-80, they'll be too foolish to actually cash in on their good luck. They'll hang with it as it drops in price expecting any day that it will sky rocket it up to $600.
I absolutely love that they assume that *they* have special knowledge about the future of silver that apparently no one else has, which allows them to buy it so incredibly cheap right now.
Like, do they really believe that professionals whose job it is to know the value of precious metals just...aren't buying it right now??
This is probably the hardest part for me to digest. They think they have special knowledge because they are on conspiracy theory websites. It gives them joy, so whatever.
My brother actually went to college and has a BA in business with a minor/concentration in entrepreneurship. He has always been attracted to "big upside", but he used to be connected to reality.
The attraction to silver is news to me. They have been very preachy about the Iraqi Dinar over the past 4-5 years. It's going to re-value and 100X in the next 3-6 months. They have said that for about 4-5 years. They bought me some of it. When I exchanged it to get real U.S. dollars, I only got 70 cents/dollar after transaction fees. Regular banks won't exchange it for the public exchange rate.
They haven't mentioned the Iraqi dinar in about 6-12 months and I just figured out why.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/iraqs-central-bank-devalues-dinar-22-amid-public-74819699
After taking a 22% loss on the devaluation and another 30% for transaction costs to get U.S. currency, they probably lost around 50% over the past 4-5 years. She was "invested" in the dinar about 8 years before meeting my brother.
After getting the bad news about the Dinar in late December, they probably needed 1-2 months to figure out a new plan. Silver had a nice run from $24 in Nov 2020 to $27 in Feb 2021. They probably made their big investment into silver around March 2021 to June 2021 and probably paid $26. They recently bought a little more because it's now down to $24. I'm guessing they are probably down around 7% on their silver investment. I guess that's better than the dinar.
Ah, that is my favourite.
That people think they have special access to information because they read it on publicly available websites.
I love the assumption that the aggressive sharks in the investment world just *ignore* really valuable, publicly available information because they're "blind" to "reality."
Fuck, I know investment bankers who would stick pins in their own dicks if they thought it would give them an edge in the market. Those people are open to ANYTHING.
But nooo, middle class Joe Blow who spends way too much time reading content promoted by someone in a warehouse in Russia, yeah, that guy has access to secrets that can make you rich that no one else has access to...y'know except for everyone else on the internet.
Post by: ixtap on October 31, 2021, 08:12:26 AM
Post by: Metalcat on October 31, 2021, 08:19:49 AM
I mean, that special knowledge is what the conspiracy theorists are all about. Luckily, none of our family conspiracy nuts have put their money towards any of it. DH has been worried any his father doing so if Trump tells him to, but they wore masks and for vaccinated as soon as they could, so I hold out hope. We each have a sibling that is safe because they just can't conceive of saving or investing.
Oh I get that, I'm related to one as I mentioned above.
I just always find it fascinating that they don't register that their "special" information is publicly available. And that there are plenty of opportunists out there who don't give a fuck where info comes from, if it's profitable, they'll do it.
Post by: AlanStache on October 31, 2021, 09:25:26 AM
Post by: Michael in ABQ on October 31, 2021, 11:40:33 AM
Post by: PDXTabs on October 31, 2021, 11:58:13 AM
In fairness to openly available information making you rich, GameStop was done publicly on reddit, and lots of people were talking bitcoin. Not saying silver will go to 1000$, or that dollar cost averaging is not be best way to get rich consistently, but there have been a few cases where average joes/josefinas did very well by following "special insider information" they read online.
Also, if enough people believe it then it will become true. If enough people believe that silver is an incredible buying opportunity then it will be. Of course that's just pump-and-dump. No value was created.
Post by: Metalcat on October 31, 2021, 12:09:30 PM
In fairness to openly available information making you rich, GameStop was done publicly on reddit, and lots of people were talking bitcoin. Not saying silver will go to 1000$, or that dollar cost averaging is not be best way to get rich consistently, but there have been a few cases where average joes/josefinas did very well by following "special insider information" they read online.
Yeah, but that information was available to everyone, which is why so many people made money off of it, which is why the price sky rocketed rapidly.
Also those are assets that primarily sky rocketed specifically because of hype.
So that's exactly my point, if there was an even remotely predictable explosion in the value of silver, people would be all over it and pumping it up.
Post by: havregryn on November 01, 2021, 05:30:54 AM
https://news.gold-eagle.com/article/expert-investor-believes-silver-price-could-climb-1000/245 (https://news.gold-eagle.com/article/expert-investor-believes-silver-price-could-climb-1000/245)
Some gooberific reasoning in this article.
My *Canadian* gun-toting, anti-vaxxer, conspiracy theory obsessed step brother is going to be RICH because of his 30K in silver coins that he's keeping for "the apocalypse".
...instead of paying off his overdue cc debt.
My BIL is Swedish.
And yet he keeps sending us weird American (if even, God knows where that comes from) sites with all these crazy conspiracies.
Last summer he and MIL were sending us some "top secret" stuff saying that American military was warned to prepare for total societal collapse.
I wish I could say this is ridiculous, I find it profoundly concerning and I wonder if they may be experiencing some neurological issues.
Level of crazy is disturbing and you can't really say that they're in some kind of an echo chamber because they live in freakin Sweden and have not even visited the USA, ever for BIL and within last 40 years for MIL.
I am especially concerned for BIL as he started the whole COVID thing on the opposite side of crazy, they refused to come out of their apartment for months, kept groceries in quarantine for weeks etc. Then suddenly they emerged from this on the exact opposite side of madness, now COVID is all made up, vaccines are made to kill us, the whole shebang. My husband just shrugs it off but it bothers me. These are normal educated people who lived their whole lives in urban Sweden, it's really surreal how they got sucked into this.
Post by: Psychstache on November 01, 2021, 06:20:30 AM
https://news.gold-eagle.com/article/expert-investor-believes-silver-price-could-climb-1000/245 (https://news.gold-eagle.com/article/expert-investor-believes-silver-price-could-climb-1000/245)
Some gooberific reasoning in this article.
My *Canadian* gun-toting, anti-vaxxer, conspiracy theory obsessed step brother is going to be RICH because of his 30K in silver coins that he's keeping for "the apocalypse".
...instead of paying off his overdue cc debt.
My BIL is Swedish.
And yet he keeps sending us weird American (if even, God knows where that comes from) sites with all these crazy conspiracies.
Last summer he and MIL were sending us some "top secret" stuff saying that American military was warned to prepare for total societal collapse.
I wish I could say this is ridiculous, I find it profoundly concerning and I wonder if they may be experiencing some neurological issues.
Level of crazy is disturbing and you can't really say that they're in some kind of an echo chamber because they live in freakin Sweden and have not even visited the USA, ever for BIL and within last 40 years for MIL.
I am especially concerned for BIL as he started the whole COVID thing on the opposite side of crazy, they refused to come out of their apartment for months, kept groceries in quarantine for weeks etc. Then suddenly they emerged from this on the exact opposite side of madness, now COVID is all made up, vaccines are made to kill us, the whole shebang. My husband just shrugs it off but it bothers me. These are normal educated people who lived their whole lives in urban Sweden, it's really surreal how they got sucked into this.
Sounds like the left Sweden to move to the internet, which is quite the radicalizing echo chamber of you spend too much time in the wrong parts.
Post by: PDXTabs on November 01, 2021, 11:12:32 AM
My BIL is Swedish.
And yet he keeps sending us weird American (if even, God knows where that comes from) sites with all these crazy conspiracies.
Last summer he and MIL were sending us some "top secret" stuff saying that American military was warned to prepare for total societal collapse.
I wish I could say this is ridiculous, I find it profoundly concerning and I wonder if they may be experiencing some neurological issues.
Level of crazy is disturbing and you can't really say that they're in some kind of an echo chamber because they live in freakin Sweden and have not even visited the USA, ever for BIL and within last 40 years for MIL.
I am especially concerned for BIL as he started the whole COVID thing on the opposite side of crazy, they refused to come out of their apartment for months, kept groceries in quarantine for weeks etc. Then suddenly they emerged from this on the exact opposite side of madness, now COVID is all made up, vaccines are made to kill us, the whole shebang. My husband just shrugs it off but it bothers me. These are normal educated people who lived their whole lives in urban Sweden, it's really surreal how they got sucked into this.
Sounds like the left Sweden to move to the internet, which is quite the radicalizing echo chamber of you spend too much time in the wrong parts.
What did you expect to happen to people who were told to lock themselves in their homes for a year? We, as a society, brought this on ourselves. People are going to have so much research material for the rest of their academic lives. Lots of subjects, public health, epidemiology, psychology, chronic disease management, drug abuse, transportation fatalities, political science, jurisprudence. I could keep going.
Post by: ixtap on November 01, 2021, 11:14:36 AM
My BIL is Swedish.
And yet he keeps sending us weird American (if even, God knows where that comes from) sites with all these crazy conspiracies.
Last summer he and MIL were sending us some "top secret" stuff saying that American military was warned to prepare for total societal collapse.
I wish I could say this is ridiculous, I find it profoundly concerning and I wonder if they may be experiencing some neurological issues.
Level of crazy is disturbing and you can't really say that they're in some kind of an echo chamber because they live in freakin Sweden and have not even visited the USA, ever for BIL and within last 40 years for MIL.
I am especially concerned for BIL as he started the whole COVID thing on the opposite side of crazy, they refused to come out of their apartment for months, kept groceries in quarantine for weeks etc. Then suddenly they emerged from this on the exact opposite side of madness, now COVID is all made up, vaccines are made to kill us, the whole shebang. My husband just shrugs it off but it bothers me. These are normal educated people who lived their whole lives in urban Sweden, it's really surreal how they got sucked into this.
Sounds like the left Sweden to move to the internet, which is quite the radicalizing echo chamber of you spend too much time in the wrong parts.
What did you expect to happen to people who were told to lock themselves in their homes for a year? We, as a society, brought this on ourselves. People are going to have so much research material for the rest of their academic lives. Lots of subjects, public health, epidemiology, psychology, chronic disease management, drug abuse, transportation fatalities, political science, jurisprudence. I could keep going.
Sweden did not ask people to lock themselves away, though. They limited mass gatherings, but there were very few shutdowns, much less lock downs.
Post by: PDXTabs on November 01, 2021, 11:21:47 AM
My BIL is Swedish.
And yet he keeps sending us weird American (if even, God knows where that comes from) sites with all these crazy conspiracies.
Last summer he and MIL were sending us some "top secret" stuff saying that American military was warned to prepare for total societal collapse.
I wish I could say this is ridiculous, I find it profoundly concerning and I wonder if they may be experiencing some neurological issues.
Level of crazy is disturbing and you can't really say that they're in some kind of an echo chamber because they live in freakin Sweden and have not even visited the USA, ever for BIL and within last 40 years for MIL.
I am especially concerned for BIL as he started the whole COVID thing on the opposite side of crazy, they refused to come out of their apartment for months, kept groceries in quarantine for weeks etc. Then suddenly they emerged from this on the exact opposite side of madness, now COVID is all made up, vaccines are made to kill us, the whole shebang. My husband just shrugs it off but it bothers me. These are normal educated people who lived their whole lives in urban Sweden, it's really surreal how they got sucked into this.
Sounds like the left Sweden to move to the internet, which is quite the radicalizing echo chamber of you spend too much time in the wrong parts.
What did you expect to happen to people who were told to lock themselves in their homes for a year? We, as a society, brought this on ourselves. People are going to have so much research material for the rest of their academic lives. Lots of subjects, public health, epidemiology, psychology, chronic disease management, drug abuse, transportation fatalities, political science, jurisprudence. I could keep going.
Sweden did not ask people to lock themselves away, though. They limited mass gatherings, but there were very few shutdowns, much less lock downs.
That's a good reminder! They are going to be one of the datapoints, not sure what happened to that one guy.
Post by: lemanfan on November 01, 2021, 11:52:52 AM
Sweden did not ask people to lock themselves away, though. They limited mass gatherings, but there were very few shutdowns, much less lock downs.
Quite a few people did however lock themselves in in Sweden, in the name of social distancing. Older people or people with other risk factors especially. Many of these in turn live in apartments without access to a yard or many times even without a balcony to get some fresh air and exercise. I have a very obese friend who locked the door to his small apartment in March 2020 and didn't open the door until June 2021 when the ambulance came to pick him up to get him to the hospital... in a bad shape, physically and mentally. Not having met anyone in real life in over a year is not good for you.
Sweden, just like any society, has it's diversity of both opinions and behaviors. We also have a messy political situation where the main "outsider" party (http://"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats) has gained lots of traction up to being the largest individual party in the latest poll. If someone has started moving in support of that party's political position and thereby entered their supporters Facebook groups and similar online forums, I suspect they might get some non-traditional information both regarding politics, medical information and investment tips. I'm sure that the political party I speak of has plenty of regular, sensible people with just a different political opinion than I have in some important questions (and probably some I agree with in others), but my qualified guess is also that they probably have the highest percentage of antivaxers, conspiracy theorist and the like of the main parties right now.
End note: This thread is not about politics, Swedish or others, I just wanted to explain why some people might not act as you'd expect of a Swede. "Borg" is actually not an uncommon surname here, but we are not the Borg from Star Trek.
Post by: ixtap on November 01, 2021, 11:56:20 AM
Sweden did not ask people to lock themselves away, though. They limited mass gatherings, but there were very few shutdowns, much less lock downs.
Quite a few people did however lock themselves in in Sweden, in the name of social distancing. Older people or people with other risk factors especially. Many of these in turn live in apartments without access to a yard or many times even without a balcony to get some fresh air and exercise. I have a very obese friend who locked the door to his small apartment in March 2020 and didn't open the door until June 2021 when the ambulance came to pick him up to get him to the hospital... in a bad shape, physically and mentally. Not having met anyone in real life in over a year is not good for you.
Sweden, just like any society, has it's diversity of both opinions and behaviors. We also have a messy political situation where the main "outsider" party (http://"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats) has gained lots of traction up to being the largest individual party in the latest poll. If someone has started moving in support of that party's political position and thereby entered their supporters Facebook groups and similar online forums, I suspect they might get some non-traditional information both regarding politics, medical information and investment tips. I'm sure that the political party I speak of has plenty of regular, sensible people with just a different political opinion than I have in some important questions (and probably some I agree with in others), but my qualified guess is also that they probably have the highest percentage of antivaxers, conspiracy theorist and the like of the main parties right now.
End note: This thread is not about politics, Swedish or others, I just wanted to explain why some people might not act as you'd expect of a Swede. "Borg" is actually not an uncommon surname here, but we are not the Borg from Star Trek.
I understand individual choices, but was responding to "when you ask people to lock themselves away." Sweden did a poor job of protecting their vulnerable, so I am not at all surprised that some felt that locking themselves away was a solution to that particular problem. It is too bad that all societies don't talk more about resilience strategies.
Post by: lemanfan on November 01, 2021, 11:59:46 AM
I understand individual choices, but was responding to "when you ask people to lock themselves away." Sweden did a poor job of protecting their vulnerable, so I am not at all surprised that some felt that locking themselves away was a solution to that particular problem. It is too bad that all societies don't talk more about resilience strategies.
Sweden did not have mandatory isolation, but the "recommendations" from the authorities was very clear: "Isolate yourself!". Large groups took that quite seriously.
Post by: Metalcat on November 01, 2021, 12:04:44 PM
I understand individual choices, but was responding to "when you ask people to lock themselves away." Sweden did a poor job of protecting their vulnerable, so I am not at all surprised that some felt that locking themselves away was a solution to that particular problem. It is too bad that all societies don't talk more about resilience strategies.
Sweden did not have mandatory isolation, but the "recommendations" from the authorities was very clear: "Isolate yourself!". Large groups took that quite seriously.
Yeah, but many countries had the same recommendations, or even much stricter actual stay-at-home orders like we did in Canada, and it didn't radicalize a whole bunch of people.
I too completely disagree with your premise.
I agree that yes, isolation probably worsened the mental health of.alot of people already prone to paranoid, conspiracy thinking, but it didn't drive perfectly sane people to believe that Pizzagate is real.
Post by: havregryn on November 01, 2021, 03:16:30 PM
My BIL is Swedish.
And yet he keeps sending us weird American (if even, God knows where that comes from) sites with all these crazy conspiracies.
Last summer he and MIL were sending us some "top secret" stuff saying that American military was warned to prepare for total societal collapse.
I wish I could say this is ridiculous, I find it profoundly concerning and I wonder if they may be experiencing some neurological issues.
Level of crazy is disturbing and you can't really say that they're in some kind of an echo chamber because they live in freakin Sweden and have not even visited the USA, ever for BIL and within last 40 years for MIL.
I am especially concerned for BIL as he started the whole COVID thing on the opposite side of crazy, they refused to come out of their apartment for months, kept groceries in quarantine for weeks etc. Then suddenly they emerged from this on the exact opposite side of madness, now COVID is all made up, vaccines are made to kill us, the whole shebang. My husband just shrugs it off but it bothers me. These are normal educated people who lived their whole lives in urban Sweden, it's really surreal how they got sucked into this.
Sounds like the left Sweden to move to the internet, which is quite the radicalizing echo chamber of you spend too much time in the wrong parts.
What did you expect to happen to people who were told to lock themselves in their homes for a year? We, as a society, brought this on ourselves. People are going to have so much research material for the rest of their academic lives. Lots of subjects, public health, epidemiology, psychology, chronic disease management, drug abuse, transportation fatalities, political science, jurisprudence. I could keep going.
I see someone told you already, yeah, this was interesting precisely because Sweden was not like the rest. So their initial reaction was extreme to say the least, they were convinced the government was out to kill them by not imposing a lockdown (they in this case is BIL and his (Chinese) girlfriend, because MIL at least never had that phase, she went straight to denialism) just like they're now convinced that the government would kill them with vaccines. Up until this point, I never heard him or saw him act in such a way (MIL has been shilling MLM for 30 years now, she is definitely the type to go for this stuff but BIL was just your average guy) and then he really went full crazy real fast. I mean, really crazy, I can accept some casual talk that skews this or that way, but he's been constantly sending us really, REALLY dubious articles and videos (I only click on a few here and there to see what the hell he's into so I don't even know the full extent of this madness) and seems to really care to convince us that there is some kind of a major vaccine conspiracy out there. I am honestly not sure that this doesn't require medical attention.
Keep in mind that to evaluate his initial reaction, we should take into consideration that he's not in any way vulnerable (he's a healthy guy who was 39 at the time) and that he's generally been politically quite libertarian and right leaning, so much closer to the guys who wouldn't want a lockdown than those who would. It was really strange both that and this, and together they're beyond strange, because the guy's got an MSc in computer science, so he must be able to understand that he had to be wrong for at least one of his episodes.
Post by: BicycleB on November 01, 2021, 04:26:45 PM
Sometimes I wonder if it's Russian agents out to disrupt democracy. Then I read that anti-vax has become a huge problem in Russia. If it was started by Russian agents, that country is suffering unexpected blowback. But maybe my sketchy musings are false in the first place.
I think I'll go, um, not look at silver prices now. Or conspiracy theories.
Post by: Metalcat on November 01, 2021, 04:44:37 PM
I feel like there's a template for turning ordinary people crazy that has been unleashed over the internet, maybe to America - but that it spread beyond the target audience.
Sometimes I wonder if it's Russian agents out to disrupt democracy. Then I read that anti-vax has become a huge problem in Russia. If it was started by Russian agents, that country is suffering unexpected blowback. But maybe my sketchy musings are false in the first place.
I think I'll go, um, not look at silver prices now. Or conspiracy theories.
As I replied in another thread, Russian fomenting of social conflict is a very real and very organized thing. Also, what makes you think that Russia wouldn't want the same destabilization of their own people?
Rachel Maddow's Blowout is a really great book (even better audiobook, she narrates it hilariously), and it really paints a clear picture of how Russian trolling came about, how it's done, and why.
It really made it all make sense to me. Well that and the global oil industry too.
Good book.
Post by: Kris on November 01, 2021, 05:19:37 PM
I feel like there's a template for turning ordinary people crazy that has been unleashed over the internet, maybe to America - but that it spread beyond the target audience.
Sometimes I wonder if it's Russian agents out to disrupt democracy. Then I read that anti-vax has become a huge problem in Russia. If it was started by Russian agents, that country is suffering unexpected blowback. But maybe my sketchy musings are false in the first place.
I think I'll go, um, not look at silver prices now. Or conspiracy theories.
As I replied in another thread, Russian fomenting of social conflict is a very real and very organized thing. Also, what makes you think that Russia wouldn't want the same destabilization of their own people?
Rachel Maddow's Blowback is a really great book (even better audiobook, she narrates it hilariously), and it really paints a clear picture of how Russian trolling came about, how it's done, and why.
It really made it all make sense to me. Well that and the global oil industry too.
Good book.
I hadn’t heard of this so I looked it up. It’s actually called Blowout. But it looks very interesting. I think I’ll get the audiobook version.
Thanks for the rec, @Malcat
Post by: Metalcat on November 01, 2021, 05:25:04 PM
I hadn’t heard of this so I looked it up. It’s actually called Blowout. But it looks very interesting. I think I’ll get the audiobook version.
Thanks for the rec, @Malcat
Yes, Blowout, it must have been an autocorrect. I've edited my OP.
Really, really fun book.
Post by: BicycleB on November 01, 2021, 05:53:19 PM
I feel like there's a template for turning ordinary people crazy that has been unleashed over the internet, maybe to America - but that it spread beyond the target audience.
Sometimes I wonder if it's Russian agents out to disrupt democracy. Then I read that anti-vax has become a huge problem in Russia. If it was started by Russian agents, that country is suffering unexpected blowback. But maybe my sketchy musings are false in the first place.
I think I'll go, um, not look at silver prices now. Or conspiracy theories.
As I replied in another thread, Russian fomenting of social conflict is a very real and very organized thing. Also, what makes you think that Russia wouldn't want the same destabilization of their own people?
Rachel Maddow's Blowout is a really great book (even better audiobook, she narrates it hilariously), and it really paints a clear picture of how Russian trolling came about, how it's done, and why.
It really made it all make sense to me. Well that and the global oil industry too.
Good book.
I may read the book - thanks!
I was assuming that Russia's administration benefits from destabilizing other countries esp. USA because they can paint their own society as better when they can point to problems we have here. I wouldn't logically assume the administration benefits from destabilizing its own country.
ETA: Downloaded the book; off and running. Thx.
Post by: Metalcat on November 01, 2021, 06:25:07 PM
I feel like there's a template for turning ordinary people crazy that has been unleashed over the internet, maybe to America - but that it spread beyond the target audience.
Sometimes I wonder if it's Russian agents out to disrupt democracy. Then I read that anti-vax has become a huge problem in Russia. If it was started by Russian agents, that country is suffering unexpected blowback. But maybe my sketchy musings are false in the first place.
I think I'll go, um, not look at silver prices now. Or conspiracy theories.
As I replied in another thread, Russian fomenting of social conflict is a very real and very organized thing. Also, what makes you think that Russia wouldn't want the same destabilization of their own people?
Rachel Maddow's Blowout is a really great book (even better audiobook, she narrates it hilariously), and it really paints a clear picture of how Russian trolling came about, how it's done, and why.
It really made it all make sense to me. Well that and the global oil industry too.
Good book.
I may read the book - thanks!
I was assuming that Russia's administration benefits from destabilizing other countries esp. USA because they can paint their own society as better when they can point to problems we have here. I wouldn't logically assume the administration benefits from destabilizing its own country.
ETA: Downloaded the book; off and running. Thx.
Oh no, no no no. You will enjoy learning about the rationale behind Russian trolling. It has nothing to do with making Russia look good.
Also, dictatorships absolutely benefit from keeping their populations destabilized. Stable societies don't tend to tolerate corrupt dictators for very long. The book will help you understand why this is especially important in oil producing countries, why corruption and destabilization are so critical to the global economy, and why none of these countries would really care about looking "good."
Post by: RetiredAt63 on November 01, 2021, 08:42:02 PM
Post by: clarkfan1979 on November 10, 2021, 02:28:29 PM
I pressed him again about the Dinar being down 25% and his response was that he doesn't need a financial advisor and I shouldn't be giving him financial advice. He completely avoided it.
The part that is upsetting is that he acts surprised that I won't buy silver based on his recommendation. He has 0% credibility in this area and he doesn't see it. My best guess is that he has been able to convince other people and maybe that is why he is so surprised that I won't go along with it.
At the end of the day, Silver is better than Dinar. I don't know much about silver, but based on inflation, I'm guessing it's also better than cash right now. I guess it could be worse.
Post by: ixtap on November 10, 2021, 02:35:05 PM
I pressed him again about the Dinar being down 25% and his response was that he doesn't need a financial advisor and I shouldn't be giving him financial advice. He completely avoided it.
Tell him you would appreciate the same curtesy.
Post by: Michael in ABQ on November 10, 2021, 05:00:30 PM
My brother gave me the hard sell yesterday to buy silver at $25/ounce because it's likely to go to $2500/ounce very soon. I asked him about the Dinar being down 25% after he gave me the hard sell to buy Iraqi Dinar in March 2018. He told me the Iraqi Dinar was a blessing that he gifted me. He gave me $150 worth of Iraqi Dinar for Christmas presents and birthdays over the past 3 years. I gifted him the same in US dollars.
I pressed him again about the Dinar being down 25% and his response was that he doesn't need a financial advisor and I shouldn't be giving him financial advice. He completely avoided it.
The part that is upsetting is that he acts surprised that I won't buy silver based on his recommendation. He has 0% credibility in this area and he doesn't see it. My best guess is that he has been able to convince other people and maybe that is why he is so surprised that I won't go along with it.
At the end of the day, Silver is better than Dinar. I don't know much about silver, but based on inflation, I'm guessing it's also better than cash right now. I guess it could be worse.
Did you ask him what supply and demand fundamentals would cause a 100x price increase in a globally traded commodity, and if there's ever been a historical precedent of the same?
There hasn't been of course. The highest price spikes I could find were about 300% in less than a year and all of those were usually followed by a huge drop as the market corrected the imbalance.
Post by: JoePublic3.14 on November 10, 2021, 05:02:10 PM
I pressed him again about the Dinar being down 25% and his response was that he doesn't need a financial advisor and I shouldn't be giving him financial advice. He completely avoided it.
Tell him you would appreciate the same curtesy.
Doesn’t sound like the type that can make that connection.
Post by: Smokystache on November 11, 2021, 10:47:04 AM
My brother gave me the hard sell yesterday to buy silver at $25/ounce because it's likely to go to $2500/ounce very soon. I asked him about the Dinar being down 25% after he gave me the hard sell to buy Iraqi Dinar in March 2018. He told me the Iraqi Dinar was a blessing that he gifted me. He gave me $150 worth of Iraqi Dinar for Christmas presents and birthdays over the past 3 years. I gifted him the same in US dollars.
I pressed him again about the Dinar being down 25% and his response was that he doesn't need a financial advisor and I shouldn't be giving him financial advice. He completely avoided it.
The part that is upsetting is that he acts surprised that I won't buy silver based on his recommendation. He has 0% credibility in this area and he doesn't see it. My best guess is that he has been able to convince other people and maybe that is why he is so surprised that I won't go along with it.
At the end of the day, Silver is better than Dinar. I don't know much about silver, but based on inflation, I'm guessing it's also better than cash right now. I guess it could be worse.
Did you ask him what supply and demand fundamentals would cause a 100x price increase in a globally traded commodity, and if there's ever been a historical precedent of the same?
There hasn't been of course. The highest price spikes I could find were about 300% in less than a year and all of those were usually followed by a huge drop as the market corrected the imbalance.
Yes, This. What does he expect to happen/change in the next few years that would affect silver prices and magnitudes higher than WWI, the Great Depression, WWII, the Cold War/Cuban Missile Crisis, Oil Embargo, Stock Market Crash of the 80s, DotCom Crash, the Great Recession, and the advent of a World-wide pandemic?? What do these people expect is going to happen that would have a 100x larger affect that these events? The follow-up question is does he understand that the source of this information likely makes money off of people buying/selling silver? So they don't have to be right, they just have to get other people (like him) to get worked up about it? Fascinating.
Post by: Dicey on November 11, 2021, 11:07:06 AM
IF I discussed finance specifics with my family (or anyone but DH and y'all), I would handle this differently. I'd tell BIL I'd taken his sage advice, purchased some silver coins and locked them up in my safe deposit box. Then I'd stop discussing financial topics with family members. Lying to BIL would continue indefinitely...
I pressed him again about the Dinar being down 25% and his response was that he doesn't need a financial advisor and I shouldn't be giving him financial advice. He completely avoided it.
Tell him you would appreciate the same curtesy.
Post by: yachi on November 11, 2021, 02:37:10 PM
My brother gave me the hard sell yesterday to buy silver at $25/ounce because it's likely to go to $2500/ounce very soon. I asked him about the Dinar being down 25% after he gave me the hard sell to buy Iraqi Dinar in March 2018. He told me the Iraqi Dinar was a blessing that he gifted me. He gave me $150 worth of Iraqi Dinar for Christmas presents and birthdays over the past 3 years. I gifted him the same in US dollars.
I pressed him again about the Dinar being down 25% and his response was that he doesn't need a financial advisor and I shouldn't be giving him financial advice. He completely avoided it.
The part that is upsetting is that he acts surprised that I won't buy silver based on his recommendation. He has 0% credibility in this area and he doesn't see it. My best guess is that he has been able to convince other people and maybe that is why he is so surprised that I won't go along with it.
At the end of the day, Silver is better than Dinar. I don't know much about silver, but based on inflation, I'm guessing it's also better than cash right now. I guess it could be worse.
Maybe he has a better idea of just how much money it takes to retire early, so he's adjusted how high Silver will go. When he was talking about it going from $24 to $600 to fund his retirement, he'd have needed to invest a whole year's worth of spending.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on November 13, 2021, 06:31:51 AM
My brother gave me the hard sell yesterday to buy silver at $25/ounce because it's likely to go to $2500/ounce very soon. I asked him about the Dinar being down 25% after he gave me the hard sell to buy Iraqi Dinar in March 2018. He told me the Iraqi Dinar was a blessing that he gifted me. He gave me $150 worth of Iraqi Dinar for Christmas presents and birthdays over the past 3 years. I gifted him the same in US dollars.
I pressed him again about the Dinar being down 25% and his response was that he doesn't need a financial advisor and I shouldn't be giving him financial advice. He completely avoided it.
The part that is upsetting is that he acts surprised that I won't buy silver based on his recommendation. He has 0% credibility in this area and he doesn't see it. My best guess is that he has been able to convince other people and maybe that is why he is so surprised that I won't go along with it.
At the end of the day, Silver is better than Dinar. I don't know much about silver, but based on inflation, I'm guessing it's also better than cash right now. I guess it could be worse.
Maybe he has a better idea of just how much money it takes to retire early, so he's adjusted how high Silver will go. When he was talking about it going from $24 to $600 to fund his retirement, he'd have needed to invest a whole year's worth of spending.
I agree with all of your responses. However, because you are using logic and reason, it won't work with communicating with my brother.
Post by: MustacheAndaHalf on November 14, 2021, 08:07:43 AM
(the largest study, with 320 participants)
"physical therapy (PT)"
"Yoga and PT participants were 21 and 22 percentage points less likely, respectively, than education participants to use pain medication at 12 weeks."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6392183/
(this one has 90 participants, and the last one 60 participants)
"standard medical care (SMC)"
"Although slightly less than at 24 weeks, the yoga group had statistically significant reductions in functional disability, pain intensity and depression compared to SMC 6-months post-intervention."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4393557/
"health related quality of life (HRQOL) ..."
"These results suggest that Iyengar yoga provides better improvement in pain reduction and improvement in HRQOL in nonspecific chronic back pain than general exercise."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4097916/
Post by: Metalcat on November 14, 2021, 06:13:58 PM
I recall seeing a comparison of various back pain treatments many years ago, and two stuck out: back surgery having a 50% success rate (hope that's improved), and yoga having a 90% success rate long-term. I don't recall where visits to a chiropractor were ranked, and couldn't find the study. But I was able to dig up some research on UK's National Institutes of Health for a few people who mentioned back pain earlier in the thread.
(the largest study, with 320 participants)
"physical therapy (PT)"
"Yoga and PT participants were 21 and 22 percentage points less likely, respectively, than education participants to use pain medication at 12 weeks."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6392183/
(this one has 90 participants, and the last one 60 participants)
"standard medical care (SMC)"
"Although slightly less than at 24 weeks, the yoga group had statistically significant reductions in functional disability, pain intensity and depression compared to SMC 6-months post-intervention."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4393557/
"health related quality of life (HRQOL) ..."
"These results suggest that Iyengar yoga provides better improvement in pain reduction and improvement in HRQOL in nonspecific chronic back pain than general exercise."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4097916/
You know this thread stopped being about anything to do with chiro a loooooong time ago.
Also, I have a ton of comments about those studies, but don't have the energy right now. I'll simply say that yes, it's blatantly obvious that yoga would be highly beneficial for "mild" back pain, since the vast majority of "mild" back pain would benefit from strengthening exercises that improve posture.
Post by: Apples on November 15, 2021, 08:07:18 AM
And the people who are candidates for back surgery and not the same people who can start doing yoga to see if it helps.
Post by: Rubic on November 15, 2021, 08:43:36 AM
My brother gave me the hard sell yesterday to buy silver at $25/ounce because it's likely to go to $2500/ounce very soon.
Interesting anecdote: My maternal grandfather was always gifting me silver items from
the Franklin Mint while I was growing up. In 1979, the Hunt Brothers attempted to
corner the silver market by buying up physical silver as well as futures contracts.
I was able to sell over $900 worth of silver at $50 an ounce to a broker. It's interesting
to note that now, over 40 years later, I can buy back that silver at a 50% discount!
And yes, I did invest those funds in the stock market. ;-)
-Rubic
Post by: Kris on November 15, 2021, 04:19:00 PM
I feel like there's a template for turning ordinary people crazy that has been unleashed over the internet, maybe to America - but that it spread beyond the target audience.
Sometimes I wonder if it's Russian agents out to disrupt democracy. Then I read that anti-vax has become a huge problem in Russia. If it was started by Russian agents, that country is suffering unexpected blowback. But maybe my sketchy musings are false in the first place.
I think I'll go, um, not look at silver prices now. Or conspiracy theories.
As I replied in another thread, Russian fomenting of social conflict is a very real and very organized thing. Also, what makes you think that Russia wouldn't want the same destabilization of their own people?
Rachel Maddow's Blowout is a really great book (even better audiobook, she narrates it hilariously), and it really paints a clear picture of how Russian trolling came about, how it's done, and why.
It really made it all make sense to me. Well that and the global oil industry too.
Good book.
I may read the book - thanks!
I was assuming that Russia's administration benefits from destabilizing other countries esp. USA because they can paint their own society as better when they can point to problems we have here. I wouldn't logically assume the administration benefits from destabilizing its own country.
ETA: Downloaded the book; off and running. Thx.
Oh no, no no no. You will enjoy learning about the rationale behind Russian trolling. It has nothing to do with making Russia look good.
Also, dictatorships absolutely benefit from keeping their populations destabilized. Stable societies don't tend to tolerate corrupt dictators for very long. The book will help you understand why this is especially important in oil producing countries, why corruption and destabilization are so critical to the global economy, and why none of these countries would really care about looking "good."
Yes, this. I am now about 3/4 of the way through the audiobook of Rachel Maddow’s Blowout, and… holy shit. I listen to it for an hour every morning on my walk, and when I come back inside, I generally have to unload on DH, because the shit I am learning is just MINDBLOWING.
Post by: Metalcat on November 15, 2021, 04:35:51 PM
Yes, this. I am now about 3/4 of the way through the audiobook of Rachel Maddow’s Blowout, and… holy shit. I listen to it for an hour every morning on my walk, and when I come back inside, I generally have to unload on DH, because the shit I am learning is just MINDBLOWING.
I know, right???
I'm always so happy when someone reads it. The last quarter is epic though, that's where it all comes together and you're like "fuuuuuuuuck...oh...okay...I get it now"
Post by: Kris on November 15, 2021, 04:39:01 PM
Yes, this. I am now about 3/4 of the way through the audiobook of Rachel Maddow’s Blowout, and… holy shit. I listen to it for an hour every morning on my walk, and when I come back inside, I generally have to unload on DH, because the shit I am learning is just MINDBLOWING.
I know, right???
I'm always so happy when someone reads it. The last quarter is epic though, that's where it all comes together and you're like "fuuuuuuuuck...oh...okay...I get it now"
Yeah, I have been assuming that given the timeline (I’m in early 2016) things are about to get fucking crazy. I am mentally steeling myself. This has been quite the fucking ride.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on December 10, 2021, 03:11:36 PM
I ended up getting his name for Christmas exchange. I asked his wife what my brother wants for Christmas. Drum roll please..... He wants silver for Christmas.
I am now in the process of buying silver for my brother for Christmas. Maybe this is my punishment for being on the naughty list this year?
Post by: solon on December 10, 2021, 03:12:43 PM
Post by: BicycleB on December 11, 2021, 12:21:11 AM
It's been one month since my brother gave me the hard sell to buy silver. I politely declined and told him that I am sticking with real estate and the S & P 500. Well, it's now 30 days later and silver is -13%. The S & P 500 is +1%.
I ended up getting his name for Christmas exchange. I asked his wife what my brother wants for Christmas. Drum roll please..... He wants silver for Christmas.
I am now in the process of buying silver for my brother for Christmas. Maybe this is my punishment for being on the naughty list this year?
I feel you are giving a very thoughtful gift. I approve!!
Post by: chrisgermany on December 11, 2021, 10:38:42 AM
Post by: AlanStache on December 11, 2021, 11:15:52 AM
Post by: pound_foolish on December 12, 2021, 06:56:57 PM
Post by: BicycleB on December 12, 2021, 07:00:43 PM
I was going to suggest a silver money clip, holding some Iraqi Dinar.
Very generous of you, @pound_foolish, considering your screen name could have led to suggesting British pounds.
Post by: iluvzbeach on December 12, 2021, 07:03:59 PM
Post by: pound_foolish on December 12, 2021, 07:08:43 PM
I was going to suggest a silver money clip, holding some Iraqi Dinar.
Very generous of you, @pound_foolish, considering your screen name could have led to suggesting British pounds.
Lol. I was referencing the silver collector's old "investment" of Iraqui Dinar.
Post by: Adventine on December 12, 2021, 07:08:45 PM
Post by: Metalcat on December 12, 2021, 07:38:26 PM
All I want for Christmas is an update to OP's original story.
I would bet solid sums that they started shilling holistic covid prevention treatments to anti-vaxxers.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on December 23, 2021, 07:23:05 AM
If you buy at least $200 you can avoid the $7.99 delivery fee, which would lower the extra charges to 39%. According to my calculations, anyone buying this stuff needs silver to appreciate by 39% just to break even. This assumes 0% transactions costs on the sell side.
Post by: Metalcat on December 23, 2021, 08:11:17 AM
I was told that my brother wants physical silver bars for Christmas and to buy it from JM Bullion. I bought 2 ounces at $22.60 an ounce. It cost me $70.95. There is some sort of an up-charge per ounce around $5.00 ounce. I also paid sales tax of 6% and shipping of $7.99. With all the extra charges, I paid 56% more than market value.
If you buy at least $200 you can avoid the $7.99 delivery fee, which would lower the extra charges to 39%. According to my calculations, anyone buying this stuff needs silver to appreciate by 39% just to break even. This assumes 0% transactions costs on the sell side.
My anti-vaxxer brother is a silver hoarder, and this entertains me to no end.
Post by: ixtap on December 23, 2021, 10:54:33 AM
I was told that my brother wants physical silver bars for Christmas and to buy it from JM Bullion. I bought 2 ounces at $22.60 an ounce. It cost me $70.95. There is some sort of an up-charge per ounce around $5.00 ounce. I also paid sales tax of 6% and shipping of $7.99. With all the extra charges, I paid 56% more than market value.
If you buy at least $200 you can avoid the $7.99 delivery fee, which would lower the extra charges to 39%. According to my calculations, anyone buying this stuff needs silver to appreciate by 39% just to break even. This assumes 0% transactions costs on the sell side.
My anti-vaxxer brother is a silver hoarder, and this entertains me to no end.
If my brother mentions silver, I will totally ask "Thirty pieces?"
Post by: Zamboni on December 23, 2021, 05:52:28 PM
Post by: PDXTabs on December 23, 2021, 05:55:36 PM
Post by: clarkfan1979 on February 01, 2022, 10:13:48 AM
My brother is going to be in Miami for a business opportunity for 1-2 months. It involves transporting precious stones.
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
I finally got some info on this diamond/precious stones business opportunity.
My brother and wife bought some "crypto". However, it is not legit crypto on an open exchange. It caters to a conspiracy theory crowd. You buy it with US currency. However, when you want to sell, you cannot sell it for US currency. However, there are other crazy people on the website that will trade for it. My brothers wife found someone on the website that was willing to trade the crypto for diamonds. In an attempt to recover their crypto money, they are selling their crypto in exchange for diamonds and then selling the diamonds to jewelry stores in Miami for US currency. The diamond guy recently stopped trading with them and they are seeking other ways to trade on the website.
They sold their house in Florida in January 2020. Housing prices are up 53% over the last two years (Jan 2020 to Jan 2022).
They used a big chunk of the US currency from the house sale to purchase crypto. They then use the crypto to buy diamonds to sell to jewelry stores in Miami for US currency. They then use that US currency to purchase silver. I think they are then going to sell the silver for US currency and buy a million dollar house. Seems like a plan to me.
I recently said that my brother gave my parents $1200 worth of silver for staying at their house for 2 months. He bought them a kilogram bar of silver, which was worth $795 (at the time). It's now worth $730 due to price drops in silver. It's very possible that he paid $1200 for the bar because of the 40% transaction fees. Not sure if there are any transactions fees if my parents ever decide to sell it. Maybe they get $700 for it?
Post by: BicycleB on February 01, 2022, 10:26:54 AM
Kind of illustrates the role of trust in financial systems. Lack of trust adds costs.
Post by: RWD on February 01, 2022, 10:31:56 AM
Looks like Kitco would buy it for $711 (minus shipping). So $700 net seems about right...My brother is going to be in Miami for a business opportunity for 1-2 months. It involves transporting precious stones.
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
I finally got some info on this diamond/precious stones business opportunity.
My brother and wife bought some "crypto". However, it is not legit crypto on an open exchange. It caters to a conspiracy theory crowd. You buy it with US currency. However, when you want to sell, you cannot sell it for US currency. However, there are other crazy people on the website that will trade for it. My brothers wife found someone on the website that was willing to trade the crypto for diamonds. In an attempt to recover their crypto money, they are selling their crypto in exchange for diamonds and then selling the diamonds to jewelry stores in Miami for US currency. The diamond guy recently stopped trading with them and they are seeking other ways to trade on the website.
They sold their house in Florida in January 2020. Housing prices are up 53% over the last two years (Jan 2020 to Jan 2022).
They used a big chunk of the US currency from the house sale to purchase crypto. They then use the crypto to buy diamonds to sell to jewelry stores in Miami for US currency. They then use that US currency to purchase silver. I think they are then going to sell the silver for US currency and buy a million dollar house. Seems like a plan to me.
I recently said that my brother gave my parents $1200 worth of silver for staying at their house for 2 months. He bought them a kilogram bar of silver, which was worth $795 (at the time). It's now worth $730 due to price drops in silver. It's very possible that he paid $1200 for the bar because of the 40% transaction fees. Not sure if there are any transactions fees if my parents ever decide to sell it. Maybe they get $700 for it?
https://online.kitco.com/sell/2003B/1-kg-Silver-Bar-999-2003B
Post by: moof on February 01, 2022, 12:06:45 PM
Great update!Many things in the USA have imposed large burdens along these lines.
Kind of illustrates the role of trust in financial systems. Lack of trust adds costs.
1. Retirement is an individual problem, so we all have to be financial experts.
2. Taxes are self-prepared and painfully complex, so we all have to be accountants once a year, or pay a bridge troll like Intuit to sell us software to do it ourselves.
3. Medical billing is a hellscape of despair, so we have to be come billing experts, lawyers, forensic accountants, and call center operators to deal with hospitals when things go sideways.
4. Child care is also a personal issue where you get to work a second job to help your kid in Zoom school at the drop of a hat, and play the infant lottery if you don't want one parent to be SAH.
One could go on much longer if you stopped and realized all the dumb ways our time is taxed in bizarre and inhumane ways. Society has become slowly more and more broken and it has done so at such a gradual pace that almost nobody seems upset enough to go protest in the streets.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on February 01, 2022, 12:45:25 PM
Great update!Many things in the USA have imposed large burdens along these lines.
Kind of illustrates the role of trust in financial systems. Lack of trust adds costs.
1. Retirement is an individual problem, so we all have to be financial experts.
2. Taxes are self-prepared and painfully complex, so we all have to be accountants once a year, or pay a bridge troll like Intuit to sell us software to do it ourselves.
3. Medical billing is a hellscape of despair, so we have to be come billing experts, lawyers, forensic accountants, and call center operators to deal with hospitals when things go sideways.
4. Child care is also a personal issue where you get to work a second job to help your kid in Zoom school at the drop of a hat, and play the infant lottery if you don't want one parent to be SAH.
One could go on much longer if you stopped and realized all the dumb ways our time is taxed in bizarre and inhumane ways. Society has become slowly more and more broken and it has done so at such a gradual pace that almost nobody seems upset enough to go protest in the streets.
These points are a big reason why education is highly correlated with net worth.
I have cousins who make more money than me in the trades. However, they do not have the education to solve real world problems beyond their job. They have a house with some equity and a small pension. That's about it. All of their extra money goes toward penalties for non-payment and paying other people to solve their problems. They pay a huge tax with their money. I pay a tax with my time. However, based on my level of education and experience, it doesn't take much of my time to figure out paying my taxes, medical bills and insurance bills.
Post by: Zamboni on February 02, 2022, 03:13:54 PM
Post by: snowball on February 08, 2022, 02:03:12 PM
^Wow, this whole $4crypto4diamonds4$fromSomeGuyinMiami4silver4$4house scheme sounds really complicated. They must really be organized! No wonder that most of us boring schmucks just stay poor!
Lol, that sums up exactly what I was thinking, only I couldn’t quite phrase it so succinctly to myself. $4crypto4diamonds4$fromSomeGuyinMiami4silver4$4house, indeed. It is a beautiful scheme in its own #truthisstrangerthanfiction kind of way.
Post by: clarkfan1979 on March 26, 2022, 07:07:21 AM
My brother is going to be in Miami for a business opportunity for 1-2 months. It involves transporting precious stones.
That is all I know. Anyone have any idea on what scam this is?
I finally got some info on this diamond/precious stones business opportunity.
My brother and wife bought some "crypto". However, it is not legit crypto on an open exchange. It caters to a conspiracy theory crowd. You buy it with US currency. However, when you want to sell, you cannot sell it for US currency. However, there are other crazy people on the website that will trade for it. My brothers wife found someone on the website that was willing to trade the crypto for diamonds. In an attempt to recover their crypto money, they are selling their crypto in exchange for diamonds and then selling the diamonds to jewelry stores in Miami for US currency. The diamond guy recently stopped trading with them and they are seeking other ways to trade on the website.
They sold their house in Florida in January 2020. Housing prices are up 53% over the last two years (Jan 2020 to Jan 2022).
They used a big chunk of the US currency from the house sale to purchase crypto. They then use the crypto to buy diamonds to sell to jewelry stores in Miami for US currency. They then use that US currency to purchase silver. I think they are then going to sell the silver for US currency and buy a million dollar house. Seems like a plan to me.
I recently said that my brother gave my parents $1200 worth of silver for staying at their house for 2 months. He bought them a kilogram bar of silver, which was worth $795 (at the time). It's now worth $730 due to price drops in silver. It's very possible that he paid $1200 for the bar because of the 40% transaction fees. Not sure if there are any transactions fees if my parents ever decide to sell it. Maybe they get $700 for it?
I originally claimed that my brother paid 33% mark-up for silver because his wife directed us to the website in which they buy their silver. I bought 1 ounce and paid a 33% mark-up. However, if you are buying 100 ounce bars, I recently found out that the mark-up fee is lower. It's "only" 15%.
In conclusion, if you are buying 100 ounce silver bars it costs you an extra 15% to buy, + local sales tax (6%) + 4% to sell + shipping costs.
Post by: Michael in ABQ on March 26, 2022, 10:13:42 AM
I originally claimed that my brother paid 33% mark-up for silver because his wife directed us to the website in which they buy their silver. I bought 1 ounce and paid a 33% mark-up. However, if you are buying 100 ounce bars, I recently found out that the mark-up fee is lower. It's "only" 15%.
In conclusion, if you are buying 100 ounce silver bars it costs you an extra 15% to buy, + local sales tax (6%) + 4% to sell + shipping costs.
About 20 years ago I bought some gold coins. This was back when gold was about $350 an ounce. Instead of buying some bullion I bought into the sale pitch on the phone and purchased Swiss Francs - which of course were marked up 15-20% over the spot price of gold. Fast forward a couple of years and gold was at $450 an ounce. I sold the coins back to the same company and basically broken even on a ~$2,500 investment.
That money then went into some individual financial stocks in the early 2000s which dropped 80-90% after 2008.
I learned my lesson and just stick to index funds now.