Author Topic: Ugh... my BIL  (Read 11020 times)

jeromedawg

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Ugh... my BIL
« on: June 05, 2017, 02:09:43 PM »
Okay, so this isn't as much an "Antimustachian" post as it is just a form of venting...

My BIL came down to visit over the weekend (he's leaving later today THANK GOD), and we were trying to prepare ourselves beforehand. But we've learned that pretty much nothing will ever be able to fully prepare us for his ridiculousness. 

A bit of a background: He's quite the spendy-pants and loves shopping exclusively at Whole Foods and loves shopping at Ralph Lauren (but supposedly only when there's a sale). He also buys fancy men's care products and pays a ton of money for his haircuts. Though, more recently after going through a couple job losses he supposedly "learned the hard way" that shopping for anything excessively priced maybe isn't such a good idea so he'll often tell us about how he gets "deals" on things when he shops (even though they're probably not good deals or deals at all at the end of the day).

While a majority of his habits are pretty antimustachian in general, that's not what this thread is entirely about. But there might be some connection between his antimustachian habits and his personality (e.g. OMG I need to get the *best* thing ever and it needs to look clean, presentable, perfect, etc and I'm willing to spend *whatever* amount of money is necessary to get it because it's worth it). Rather, this thread explores the other side some of which is humorous and may help explain the source of some of his antimustachian habits as well as the aftereffects of them....

That said, what is most annoying about him is how particular he is about things: he hates driving therefore he refuses to rent a car anywhere he goes (basically, every time he visits someone has to chauffeur him around even if it's at their full inconvenience), he complains about his mom's food and her not using nitrate-free bacon, he complains about the pork being too fatty/chewy that was used in another dish, he constantly adjusts our thermostat to lower because he's "so hot", and my wife told me he even went over and adjusted the temperature at a dim sum restaurant (yes, for the entire restaurant) today. He will tell my wife "you guys really need to clean your car" when we have two kids and could care less about how messy our car is. He also "dragged us" (I say that because I was the one who drove) around to shop at the Vans Outlet to get my son shoes (because my son really "needs" a "cute" pair of shoes even though he has shoes already) and something for himself. They found shoes for my son in maybe 20 minutes and the remaining 40+ minutes he was looking for something for himself and ended up getting a backpack. At some point he was in line but got back out of line because he saw something someone else was buying and went to get it and try it on in a fitting room. Meanwhile (for a good 20-30mins), I was strolling my wailing infant and irritated toddler around out in the parking lot, boiling with anger. I could go on and on and on.... the point is that we're pretty fed up with him. He's a fireball in his own right and we don't know what will happen if/when one of us blows a gasket and chews him out, but it won't be pretty. I've been more verbal to my wife about him and she thinks I'm being mean, and she also holds back on confronting him because he's 15 years older than her. Otherwise, he acts like he's her parent or something - it's ridiculous. I get that he helped "watch" her when he was in his teenage years but often times he's just way off base. Oftentimes, she'll just fire back at him and have short exchanges when he nitpicks about something. She basically just tries to nip those conversations at the bud.

It boils down to this: he has NO emotional intelligence (even though he thinks he does) and thinks the world revolves around him (narcissistic). I'm getting tired of all the unsolicited advice he gives us, as well as interjecting himself into various conversations including when we're trying to correct our kids (he'll interject and ask why they're misbehaving or crying, then try to justify it, then laugh and tell us "you just need to laugh it off"). He can't hold himself back from saying *something* from anything at all - my wife says he hates silence, and oh boy is that an understatement. We'll make the most neutral statements and he'll immediately say "That's OK!!" like we need some sort of consolation despite the statement being neutral (e.g. my son dropped a piece of fish on his shirt while eating and I was just making a general statement out loud "Oh he has some fish on his collar" and proceeded to clean it up - immediately my BIL announces "that's ok!" - I didn't say anything but it was quite irritating). I often end up being very short with him in light of him doing things like this, and then I'll clam up and not say anything else to him. Pretty sure he doesn't get the message because he's either extremely dense or if he doesn't care. My wife has been getting mad at me because I clam up and am tight-lipped around him but I don't know what else to do.

It all sounds pretty hilarious, reading through it, but it's awful. My wife has no idea where he got any of this nit-pickiness from. She's the polar opposite and my in-laws are nothing like him. He's a total diva. We often wonder how his partner can put up with and live with him.

Any of you have similar experiences with the "SIL or BIL from hell?"
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 03:05:50 PM by jeromedawg »

MgoSam

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 02:20:35 PM »
I fear that I'm the "in law from Hell," in the eyes of my sibling's spouses.

Us Indians have a lifescript that's drilled into us when we are young. We are supposed to

a. Play tennis
b. Become doctors/lawyers/engineers
c. Marry a fellow Indian
d. Have 2-3 kids
e. Associate almost exclusively with fellow Indians, acceptable to have white friends if they are from work/networking otherwise keep to a minimum

I have failed all of these, whereas my siblings and spouses have done everything except B (though they all a masters, Phd, or MBA so I'm sure their parents forgive them this oversight).

jeromedawg

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2017, 02:25:57 PM »
I fear that I'm the "in law from Hell," in the eyes of my sibling's spouses.

Us Indians have a lifescript that's drilled into us when we are young. We are supposed to

a. Play tennis
b. Become doctors/lawyers/engineers
c. Marry a fellow Indian
d. Have 2-3 kids
e. Associate almost exclusively with fellow Indians, acceptable to have white friends if they are from work/networking otherwise keep to a minimum

I have failed all of these, whereas my siblings and spouses have done everything except B (though they all a masters, Phd, or MBA so I'm sure their parents forgive them this oversight).

LOL @ play tennis! It never even occurred to me  but now when I think of it that's just hilarious.

Yea, my in-laws scratch their heads and wonder what happened to their son. He's like crazy OCD and thinks he's right and that everyone should think and live the same way he does, AND he's verbal about it. Another anecdote: we were eating pho the other day and he was watching another table with two girls who he said were making fun of the waiter (or perhaps giving him a hard time?). We were minding our own business and wouldn't have noticed, but he kept staring/glaring at them and started saying stuff out loud like "oh my gosh those girls are so rude. I'm seriously going to cuss them out" - to the point that I'm pretty sure the girls heard him. I was thinking "chill out man; don't cause a scene. And mind your own freaking business" the whole time. This is another reason I hate going out to places with the guy... he has no control over his volume level and starts talking about people and making judgement statements where it's like "uhh, everyone can hear that you're talking sh!t about them" - again, this goes back to zero EQ and awareness. I won't be surprised if he at some point gets *facepunched* for real.

I forgot to mention about the whole AC thing - he's from NorCal and we're in SoCal, so naturally it's 'warmer' for him but we try to keep it around 75-degrees in the house. He can't stand it (yet he complains about how their home up in SF is so cold and he has to run the heater all the time), so he keeps turning the AC lower and we've been playing "AC Wars" - I bet my compressor is going to die any day now because of how much it has been cycling on/off this entire weekend. Finally, I set the lower threshold for cold air (ecobee) to 73 or 74 because he was starting to drop it down to 70, and then he asked my wife "did he lock the AC?" .... LOL!

He would fit in in terms of drama level for any given reality TV show, and you guys would be thoroughly "entertained" I'm sure.

As bad as it sounds, I think he thinks we "like" him more than we actually do (if at all or very minimally!). We (my wife and in-laws) all just consider it "ma-fan" (in Chinese that means trouble/bothersome) when he visits, because everyone has to do cartwheels for him. Even after recently having two kids (and a full car) he doesn't even think twice that maybe he should rent a car to not be a burden on his hosts. Talk about someone overextending themselves... Probably some of it has to do with him being the eldest son but like I already said: he's just ridiculous.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 02:52:23 PM by jeromedawg »

omachi

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2017, 03:20:25 PM »
Not that you deserve it, but it sounds like you're enabling it. If I had anybody come into town to visit that refused to rent a car, they'd be running on my schedule to places I wanted to go. Sure, we could negotiate going somewhere to do something like adults, but shopping probably wouldn't be it. If your guest doesn't like it, perhaps they should rent the appropriate conveyance to rectify that. If somebody commented my car was dirty, they'd be informed that they were welcome to clean it. If they complained about the food that was prepared for them, I'd let them know they were welcome to buy, prepare, and clean up dinner so it's up to their standards. If the whining on any front continued, they'd be scolded like a child and reminded they have those options. If somebody were to change my thermostat they'd be warned that the next time they did so they'd be asked to leave, and then I'd follow through with it. Surprise, surprise, nobody pulls this crap with me.

So stand up for yourself! I mean, you're in a worse position by having been a pushover for however long you've known the guy, but with some effort you can change that. Set limits, stand by the limits, respect yourself and require him to respect you too. Communicate. You don't have to get into touchy-feely stuff like it upsets me that you do this or I feel bad when you do that, just make the bounds known. Right now he does something and you go all passive-aggressive about it instead of actually saying anything. You're playing AC Wars like children because you refuse to just say that the AC stays at 75, tough, deal with it, and he'll be finding a hotel where he can control the temperature if he doesn't like it. If you haven't told him not to do something, he gets a pass for not having been told not to do that, no matter how "dense" he is about how you change it back without saying anything each time.

Once it's been established that you're actually the boss in your own house, he probably won't try to pull this sort of crap. At worst, hopefully bounds should be tested infrequently.

jeromedawg

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2017, 03:27:56 PM »
Not that you deserve it, but it sounds like you're enabling it. If I had anybody come into town to visit that refused to rent a car, they'd be running on my schedule to places I wanted to go. Sure, we could negotiate going somewhere to do something like adults, but shopping probably wouldn't be it. If your guest doesn't like it, perhaps they should rent the appropriate conveyance to rectify that. If somebody commented my car was dirty, they'd be informed that they were welcome to clean it. If they complained about the food that was prepared for them, I'd let them know they were welcome to buy, prepare, and clean up dinner so it's up to their standards. If the whining on any front continued, they'd be scolded like a child and reminded they have those options. If somebody were to change my thermostat they'd be warned that the next time they did so they'd be asked to leave, and then I'd follow through with it. Surprise, surprise, nobody pulls this crap with me.

So stand up for yourself! I mean, you're in a worse position by having been a pushover for however long you've known the guy, but with some effort you can change that. Set limits, stand by the limits, respect yourself and require him to respect you too. Communicate. You don't have to get into touchy-feely stuff like it upsets me that you do this or I feel bad when you do that, just make the bounds known. Right now he does something and you go all passive-aggressive about it instead of actually saying anything. You're playing AC Wars like children because you refuse to just say that the AC stays at 75, tough, deal with it, and he'll be finding a hotel where he can control the temperature if he doesn't like it. If you haven't told him not to do something, he gets a pass for not having been told not to do that, no matter how "dense" he is about how you change it back without saying anything each time.

Once it's been established that you're actually the boss in your own house, he probably won't try to pull this sort of crap. At worst, hopefully bounds should be tested infrequently.

Yea, it's like having another kid around lol. I don't know if it's just the way I was cultured or what but I don't feel like I'm in a position to tell my brother-in-law off, similar to how my wife would never tell my in-laws off. That's just not the relationship we have. If anything, my wife expects me to tell my own brother/parents off. I think the issue is where I would expect her to do the same, she doesn't want to. She has the "pushover" mentality that her parents have, where they're too nice and just say "ok ok ok" - I think I'm being passive-aggressive about it because confronting him directly would be "taboo" - not that this can't change but I think my wife and I need to talk about it. She has become more vocal with him regarding setting boundaries and stuff but it's obviously not enough. I think it has been this way her entire life growing up so it's just "the way things are" - ever since she was in college or younger, as soon as she could get her license, she would be chauffeuring him around without question. Him being that much older and in a position of 'given authority' doesn't help matters either. Maybe it's an Asian-thing. I was telling my wife, if it were my own brother/sister I would be telling them off for sure - my oldest bro is 10 years older but he's nothing like her brother in that sense; I'm awkward with my oldest brother at times as we don't find a lot to talk about but if he were to start acting like a child I would most certainly call him out on it. I just don't feel comfortable speaking that way to an in-law. Like I said, I'll have to talk more with my wife about it.

RE the AC, when I told her I want it kept at 74/75 max, the response from my wife was that I was overreacting and basically just to deal with it and "I don't know what you expected with him visiting this weekend" and "It's just a couple days - get over it" more or less. After seeing him change the AC at the restaurant though, I think it's a bigger issue and I think she just needs to talk to him.

A lot of this is tricky because he's even passive aggressive in how he complains - with him complaining about the food my MIL/FIL cooked, they would *never* scold him back and he knows it, so that's probably why he's comfortable saying that stuff. If I were to go off at him in front of my MIL/FIL and wife, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't look too good and all my in-laws would end up hating me. But that's probably something my wife could have jumped in and proverbially slapped him over the back of the head on. I think because things have "always been this way" he feels like he can do/say anything around his own immediate family (it's what's 'comfortable' for him). It's just that nobody has stood up to him and told him "NO!" - this is like the 2nd or 3rd time he has stayed with us and I actually don't recall him being this bad before (he definitely wouldn't screw around with the AC, that's for sure). It could be because we have two kids now and a lot more of his behavior is magnified.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 03:45:09 PM by jeromedawg »

nouveauRiche

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2017, 03:49:50 PM »
You can set boundaries without "telling him off".  I'm not great at it but I'm sure some others will have good ideas.

At the store - "The kids are cranky so we're going to leave.  You can come with us now or take Uber back later on."

When he says you need to clean your car - "You're right.  It's a mess." (and then do nothing)

Thermostat - I don't know.  I can't imagine messing with the thermostat is someone else's home or in a business.  No advice....

Good luck.  He sounds like a pain.

omachi

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2017, 03:52:11 PM »
I think I'm being passive-aggressive about it because confronting him directly would be "taboo" - not that this can't change but I think my wife and I need to talk about it.

Communication is good for everybody. If she's in a position where she can't due to cultural expectations or just having roles entrenched in family life for so long, she may desperately want you to stand up and set some rules for BIL. Alternately, she may get really upset if you were to subvert cultural expectations that older people warrant unquestioned deferral, feeling that it would be too disrespectful to say anything despite being unhappy with the results. Social systems are weird. Talk it through and come up with a plan you're both happy with.

Quote
I'm awkward with my oldest brother at times as we don't find a lot to talk about but if he were to start acting like a child I would most certainly call him out on it. I just don't feel comfortable speaking that way to an in-law.

I'll reiterate that this is your home. It shouldn't matter to you if this were your brother, you in-law, a friend, the pope, or a total stranger. You get to set the rules and others are expected to follow them. And yes, I'll acknowledge that confrontation with those you aren't comfortable around is difficult. It may even result in hurt feelings all around. But if you value having any boundaries, you have to plainly set them and enforce them. It'll get easier as he learns you mean it.

If it's any easier, you can start with being overly polite. Ask nicely that he not touch the thermostat. It may be that he'll ask surprised that it ever caused any offense since you said nothing, but he'll respect the request anyway. State politely in private that your wife worked hard to make the meal he criticized earlier and that you would appreciate his not making her feel bad that he doesn't like it. If it works, great, and you tried the easy option first. If not, being blunt and offering consequences where appropriate will feel like an escalation of the earlier approach and should be easier for you than just going there to start.

jeromedawg

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2017, 03:52:25 PM »
You can set boundaries without "telling him off".  I'm not great at it but I'm sure some others will have good ideas.

At the store - "The kids are cranky so we're going to leave.  You can come with us now or take Uber back later on."

When he says you need to clean your car - "You're right.  It's a mess." (and then do nothing)

Thermostat - I don't know.  I can't imagine messing with the thermostat is someone else's home or in a business.  No advice....

Good luck.  He sounds like a pain.

Yea, that's mostly what my wife said to him about the car. He'll start asking why we need certain things he sees laying around and that's when she gets *really* short with him.

But yea, he's a pain. They're also back home now so time to hit "post" and close this tab out LOL!!!

nouveauRiche

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2017, 04:11:06 PM »

He'll start asking why we need certain things he sees laying around and that's when she gets *really* short with him.


Make up stock BS reasons:  "Oh, that?  It's a paperweight."  "We're going to clean it out and store Tylenol in it."  "We're thinking of using it as a pacifier for the baby."  I don't know.

omachi

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2017, 04:17:32 PM »
You can set boundaries without "telling him off".  I'm not great at it but I'm sure some others will have good ideas.

At the store - "The kids are cranky so we're going to leave.  You can come with us now or take Uber back later on."

When he says you need to clean your car - "You're right.  It's a mess." (and then do nothing)

Thermostat - I don't know.  I can't imagine messing with the thermostat is someone else's home or in a business.  No advice....

Good luck.  He sounds like a pain.

Aside from the AC, nothing I offered is telling somebody off. Agreeing the car is a mess is almost the opposite of setting boundaries, as you're affirming that they're correct and not correcting them that it isn't their place to say anything. Offering to let them clean it will quickly let them know that you aren't going to and strongly implies that you don't feel it is their place to comment unless they're planning to put in the effort to change the situation. No halfway reasonable person is going to get upset if you make this offer gently, you didn't tell them to shut their mouth or anything, just offered them the chance to fix a situation they found so compelling they had to comment on.

Your answer for at the store is in the same vein as my general approach on the car, but it doesn't address how somebody that didn't want to go shopping got dragged into driving somebody to go shopping.

BIL sounds selfish, but that doesn't mean he has to be a pain. When he doesn't just get what he wants all the time and has clearly communicated boundaries outlining what is acceptable, his behavior may change. Testing those boundaries and still not getting what he wants plus getting an argument becomes worse than just not getting what he wants. He's still free to focus on his selfish wants, he'll just have to find a way to get what he wants that falls within the accepted boundaries.

It might also mean some accommodations for wants within some realm of acceptable. A box fan sitting out that he can point at himself rather than lower the AC, for instance. If he's really dying from heat in 75 degrees, that may be a happy enough compromise that he gets to cool off and you get to keep a low electric bill.

jeromedawg

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2017, 07:29:20 PM »
You can set boundaries without "telling him off".  I'm not great at it but I'm sure some others will have good ideas.

At the store - "The kids are cranky so we're going to leave.  You can come with us now or take Uber back later on."

When he says you need to clean your car - "You're right.  It's a mess." (and then do nothing)

Thermostat - I don't know.  I can't imagine messing with the thermostat is someone else's home or in a business.  No advice....

Good luck.  He sounds like a pain.

Aside from the AC, nothing I offered is telling somebody off. Agreeing the car is a mess is almost the opposite of setting boundaries, as you're affirming that they're correct and not correcting them that it isn't their place to say anything. Offering to let them clean it will quickly let them know that you aren't going to and strongly implies that you don't feel it is their place to comment unless they're planning to put in the effort to change the situation. No halfway reasonable person is going to get upset if you make this offer gently, you didn't tell them to shut their mouth or anything, just offered them the chance to fix a situation they found so compelling they had to comment on.

Your answer for at the store is in the same vein as my general approach on the car, but it doesn't address how somebody that didn't want to go shopping got dragged into driving somebody to go shopping.

BIL sounds selfish, but that doesn't mean he has to be a pain. When he doesn't just get what he wants all the time and has clearly communicated boundaries outlining what is acceptable, his behavior may change. Testing those boundaries and still not getting what he wants plus getting an argument becomes worse than just not getting what he wants. He's still free to focus on his selfish wants, he'll just have to find a way to get what he wants that falls within the accepted boundaries.

It might also mean some accommodations for wants within some realm of acceptable. A box fan sitting out that he can point at himself rather than lower the AC, for instance. If he's really dying from heat in 75 degrees, that may be a happy enough compromise that he gets to cool off and you get to keep a low electric bill.

Haha I told my wife about that tactic to offer up having him clean the car for us and she was like "you really think it's a good idea to suggest that? I wouldn't want him to..." because I think she thinks he would actually take her seriously and do it. The problem is that if he actually DID do it he would nitpick even MORE and ask her "do you need this? do you need that? do you really need this? i'm going to throw that away?" But I get your point - either of us could still say that and then if he offers, clarify "Actually, I was trying to make a point that we're not particularly concerned with the cleanliness and organization of our car when we have two young kids and are still figuring things out in that regard. So please don't feel like you need to say any more about it moving forward."

With the whole shopping thing originally he was wanting all of us to go with him to the Van's outlet AND a Van's store (if he didn't find anything at the outlet). I suggested that I stay at home and watch the older one while they all go out but my wife explained that her brother wanted to buy shoes for our son, to which I replied "so? he doesn't need to be there if you know what size he wears" she then went on about how I need to "get out of the house." I told her fine but if you can't fit between the car seats, I'm not going because it's obviously not going to work out in our Rav4. My wife was able to uncomfortably squeeze in the back between the carseats so I was like "crap" and that was that.

Her relationship with her brother is very much love-hate. She loves him because they're siblings but has told me "I would never be friends with him if he weren't my brother" - on that note, he is extremely selfish. He only thinks about himself and his partner. There are no kids in their picture so they are in the perfect position to be completely self-absorbed; he is by far the most self-absorbed between the two of them. It's seriously what I envisioned hanging out with a drama queen diva would be like... completely awful. Otherwise, my wife (and my in-laws) will do *whatever* it takes to avoid any sort of conflict with him because he gets all dramatic whenever there's conflict. And I'm sure he tells his partner *all about* those kinds of things and more (and I'm sure his partner tries to get him to calm down too in those instances)

Anyway, regarding shopping he said that next time he wants us to take him to the other Vans store because there will be more of a selection to shop from... uh, there will be a "next time"? How many of these "next times" will there be and how often? I don't think he can even step back to think about the situation: we're basically running around doing whatever YOU want to do rather than agreeing on something together. Sure, we can stop by the Van's outlet, but not for a freaking hour! The whole ordeal actually took closer to 1.5-2 hours since we were waiting for him to get ready + loading the kids + driving there and back. I was exhausted after that ordeal. The thing is, my wife is OK with that - in her eyes, it's not "bending over backwards" as much as it is being hospitable and taking care of guests. But some of his requests are just over-the-top and too demanding when we have two kids to worry about taking care of while he takes his sweet time shopping.

I actually did suggest a fan but it was shot down. He was like "I'll be fine with your air cleaner because it blows air out and that's enough" yet despite that he still turned the AC on. "Next time" I'm sticking a fan in there, enabling the passcode on the ecobee and saying "hey if you want to cool off just open the window and turn the fan on" and that's it. If he keeps whining about it I'll start talking about how he should sign up for an IHG credit card - the annual fee is only $49 and you get a free room every year: there's a Holiday Inn down the street that would be perfect for you. He often will nitpick on my wife while I'm not around, because I think he knows she won't say much back (I'm sure this is a control-thing too...). I'm going to encourage her to be more vocal and put her foot down when he tries to pull crap like that. She has been voicing her opinion more but the way he brings stuff up is already passive-aggressive enough. I've been pretty short with him as of late - if he asks me something I'll give a short answer because I'm not interested in what he has to say and ultimately what advice he's about to prescribe. I really don't like talking to people who are that self-absorbed and have to give their opinion about *EVERYTHING* - my wife thinks it's rude but I can't help myself. Especially being introverted, I get exhausted when people talk *at* me for more than 10 minutes.

Funny anecdote I just recalled but the last time he visited when we just had one kid, he completely blew up at my wife and I as we were in the middle of deciding where to eat before his flight. He was getting all stressed about potentially being late for his flight, and my wife and I were going back and forth "well, should we just eat at the closer place so we don't have to drive as far? I'm just not sure if we can make it to the other place that we like more" and in the middle of our A-B conversation, with my in-laws there, he interjects with an "JESUS CHRIST CAN YOU GUYS JUST MAKE A DECISION? WHAT THE HELL IS SO DIFFICULT?" - it was pretty awkward after that but he did try to make amends with me and apologized on the way into the restaurant. It's something he learned from therapy or whatever. Gosh, I totally forgot about that fun experience. It's always good times when her brother is in town!
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 08:04:24 PM by jeromedawg »

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2017, 08:24:25 PM »
I am sorry this dude is in your house shitting on your life, and your family's happiness.

Having three little kids myself (and typing this with a sleeping baby on me while the other twin, the 3yo, and my wife are asleep), I'm guessing you and your wife don't have a lot of time to talk, and when you do, she doesn't want to deal with what's stressing you because so much is stressing her. Can BIL make sure your older kid is OK while you two take the baby for a walk, if there is a little one who can't follow conversation yet? That's when I get the best conversations with my wife right now.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2017, 01:54:19 AM »
I find that the phrase "I'm very sorry you feel that way" has saved me a lot of confrontation and butthurt. It keeps me out of situations wherein I invite further abuse by admitting wrongdoing (particularly when I did nothing wrong) and it has a way of defusing people with entitled attitudes. It kind of puts the conversational ball, and the responsibility for their sense of outrage in response to fairly benign things, back onto them where it belongs.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2017, 03:20:09 AM »
I would give this guy a job to do while he's visiting. I have an older female relative exactly like this. When she visits we have a dinner and catch up for all the local relatives. I leave the organising of that to her. I got her to take it over by asking for her help with the organising, and she managed to take over as I knew she would. Now when she comes down she's full of plans how to top the previous visit, and most of her visit seems to be consumed with achieving this. It's blissful!

ms

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2017, 07:24:59 AM »
It sounds like you are up to the point where you hate him... I would suggest visiting DWIL Nation on babycenter.com and getting additional advice to dealing with in-laws. They are a great resource for dealing with narcissists and the like.

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2017, 07:41:40 AM »
Some thoughts:

1.  Can you play BIL Bingo?  Make a list of the annoying things he says/does, and each of you gets 5 on the list.  The first one to hit all 5 has to find a way to work the word "bingo" into conversation, without being noticed.

2.  Just say no.  You are right to defer to your wife in general, as it is her brother.  However, this is also your house, you are an introvert, he is overwhelming, and you have the right to do what you need to to preserve your own sanity.  Don't argue, don't engage, just repeat "no thanks, that won't work," or "no thanks, I'll just stay here."  It is not being rude, it is not "telling him off," it is simply setting a boundary and then sticking to it.   

3.  Next visit, talk with your wife in advance about what boundaries to set.  You can say you are concerned because he causes her so much stress, that she swallows a bunch of stuff and then blows up, and what can you do to help set some boundaries so she doesn't get to the breaking point?  E.g., there is NOT A DAMN THING WRONG with telling him to rent a car or letting him borrow yours -- he is a grown-ass man, if he wants to get himself somewhere at a time that is not convenient, he can drive himself.  That is actually the very first boundary I would set, because there is nothing like forcing yourself to rejigger your schedule at the drop of a hat, with small children to deal with, to magnify all of the other problems. 

4.  Where I would call him out is if he insults your wife's cooking.  I don't care how close you are with someone, that is unacceptable.  The key here, though, is being calm and direct, not angry and attacking -- e.g., "please don't insult my wife's cooking, she worked hard to make this for us."  And that's it -- again, don't engage, don't escalate or yell or insult, just calmly repeat the same phrase.

5.  Read 1-2-3 Magic -- for him, not your kids!  He is acting like a toddler, so treat him like one.  Try to see it as less ego and more insecurity; how tough must it be to live in his head when he has to talk all the time because he is so terrified to listen to his own thoughts and can't tolerate the idea of not being the center of attention for one second?  Good Lord, that sounds exhausting and miserable. [This was my DD, btw: she put on a huge show about needing to control everything precisely because she felt so fragile inside]  The image that stuck with me from that book is the parent as the horse, and the kid as the horsefly buzzing around, and the horse just doesn't even notice it, just periodically swats its tail to knock it off and goes on grazing.  You can't let him see that he's getting to you, because that is the payoff he is looking for -- it tells him that he matters, that he has the power in that situation.  The more you can set a boundary in advance, and then stick to it, and then not engage or argue when he pitches a hissy about it, the more you establish yourself as the one with power -- and the more likely he will be to fall into line in the end.

I want to say this again, because I think it is the single-most important thing:  when you either give in to his demands OR refuse but let him get you angry, you are giving him the power to control you.  He pokes, you comply; he pokes again, you yell.  That is exactly what he wants.  The only way to reclaim your power is to have clear lines for what you will and won't do/accept, enforce them consistently, and never ever ever let him see that he is getting under your skin.  No yelling, no arguing, no engaging at all -- just a calm, repeated response that enforces the boundary.  [Hint: if you find yourself getting angry, it means that you have let him slide too far over the boundary already]  Added bonus that not being able to get a rise out of you will drive him completely bat-shit crazy.

6.  Expect giant fireworks and hissy fits regardless of what you do.  When someone like him realizes he is losing the ability to get under your skin, he will immediately ramp up the behavior to get a reaction.  You have to expect that and be prepared for it and let it blow over -- if you stick to the plan and don't cave on his stupid demands, it will blow over and he will learn to behave better.  Or he'll decide that you're not worth his time if he can't re-establish his dominance and go pester someone else.  So, win-win.

omachi

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2017, 07:45:33 AM »
I would give this guy a job to do while he's visiting. I have an older female relative exactly like this. When she visits we have a dinner and catch up for all the local relatives. I leave the organising of that to her. I got her to take it over by asking for her help with the organising, and she managed to take over as I knew she would. Now when she comes down she's full of plans how to top the previous visit, and most of her visit seems to be consumed with achieving this. It's blissful!

That's brilliant. Redirection is great.

Haha I told my wife about that tactic to offer up having him clean the car for us and she was like "you really think it's a good idea to suggest that? I wouldn't want him to..." because I think she thinks he would actually take her seriously and do it. The problem is that if he actually DID do it he would nitpick even MORE and ask her "do you need this? do you need that? do you really need this? i'm going to throw that away?" But I get your point - either of us could still say that and then if he offers, clarify "Actually, I was trying to make a point that we're not particularly concerned with the cleanliness and organization of our car when we have two young kids and are still figuring things out in that regard. So please don't feel like you need to say any more about it moving forward."

I don't know that I'd make the offer if I were bluffing, but if I did I'd follow through. That seems to be the whole problem here, follow through. If anything, you make some noise about what you want that a reasonable person might pick up, but you refuse to set firm boundaries or follow through with any boundary you do set. Rather than "we have a fan in case it gets warm", you need to state "the AC is staying at 75, here's the fan for when you need to cool down." Rather than try to weasel out of shopping by daring your wife to squeeze into a cramped spot (no brownie points with the wife there, either), you need to either say you aren't going (period, end of sentence, no room for debate) or set a limit on how long you're willing to go and then stick to it.

The reason BIL acts selfish around you is because you never really say no. He knows he can get what he wants whenever he wants just by asking until you say yes. He probably also really just wants attention, and he knows he can get it by misbehaving. You're going to have to become less of a target if you want his behavior to change. And so what if there's drama after conflict? Be the calm one and refuse to get dragged into it. Don't engage with the tantrum. Just sort of stare calmly until he's done with whatever tantrum he throws, then ask if he's done. If yes, ask if he feels better having gotten that out of his system. Then stick to your position. This will deny him both what he feels the need to tantrum over and the satisfaction of provoking you.

You will have to provide some acceptable (to both parties) form of attention. But let's be fair, that's the whole reason to have people visit, to pay them some attention. That ought to be your goal, just within the realm of what works with your household. Once there's a way for him to get the attention he seeks if he follows your rules, and no way to get attention by breaking the rules, his behavior should change.

Blonde Lawyer

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2017, 08:36:09 AM »
I think you are at b!tch eating crackers stage where everything he does annoys you.  He really doesn't sound all that crazy to me.  I think when you are hosting a guest, you make sure they are comfortable.  If your guest likes it cooler, you put the air on and you put a sweater on.  Especially if it is a short visit.

His "blow up" over the airport meal sounds really reasonable to me.  I get nervous about flying and I would not want to eat somewhere that I might end up late for my flight.  I also can't stand watching people go back and forth indecisively.  He's not a stranger, he's your brother in law.  He can say things like "ugh, just make a decision already."

Complaining about food is out of line.  A hospitable guest should just eat it and be quiet.

I don't think 1-2 hours is an unreasonable amount of time for a shopping trip.  It's pretty long for just one store but not crazy.  If your kids couldn't handle that, you should have declined.  I've been the guest that wants to shop at local store A.  It's the one thing I want to do in town.  I offer to go solo but my inlaws insist on coming to spend time together.  Then they sit outside bored while I shop.  I end up trying to speed it up some for them but if this was the one outing I wanted on this trip I expect them to accommodate that.  I don't expect them to bend over backwards to my every whim but if I have traveled from across the country to see them, I expect to be able to do one or two things of my choosing.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2017, 09:41:13 AM »
....
That said, what is most annoying about him is how particular he is about things: he hates driving therefore he refuses to rent a car anywhere he goes (basically, every time he visits someone has to chauffeur him around even if it's at their full inconvenience), he complains about his mom's food and her not using nitrate-free bacon, he complains about the pork being too fatty/chewy that was used in another dish, he constantly adjusts our thermostat to lower because he's "so hot", .......

3 downchecks in one paragraph.

a) get a rent-a-car
b)any man that publicly complains about his mother's cooking is a &^%&%^k (short of actual cooking caused death/disease).
c) your thermostat, your house, his fingers at risk.


jeromedawg

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2017, 09:42:24 AM »
I think you are at b!tch eating crackers stage where everything he does annoys you.  He really doesn't sound all that crazy to me.  I think when you are hosting a guest, you make sure they are comfortable.  If your guest likes it cooler, you put the air on and you put a sweater on.  Especially if it is a short visit.

His "blow up" over the airport meal sounds really reasonable to me.  I get nervous about flying and I would not want to eat somewhere that I might end up late for my flight.  I also can't stand watching people go back and forth indecisively.  He's not a stranger, he's your brother in law.  He can say things like "ugh, just make a decision already."

Complaining about food is out of line.  A hospitable guest should just eat it and be quiet.

I don't think 1-2 hours is an unreasonable amount of time for a shopping trip.  It's pretty long for just one store but not crazy.  If your kids couldn't handle that, you should have declined.  I've been the guest that wants to shop at local store A.  It's the one thing I want to do in town.  I offer to go solo but my inlaws insist on coming to spend time together.  Then they sit outside bored while I shop.  I end up trying to speed it up some for them but if this was the one outing I wanted on this trip I expect them to accommodate that.  I don't expect them to bend over backwards to my every whim but if I have traveled from across the country to see them, I expect to be able to do one or two things of my choosing.

That makes two of us at that stage then (my wife and myself). Make that four in fact, including my in-laws. They basically say he's "trouble" every time he visits yet they will do anything to avoid conflict and would never outright tell him they're annoyed by pretty much everything he does.

It's fine if he likes it cooler or whatever, but he shouldn't be adjusting the AC at any and every given moment that he can. Especially without asking first for permission. I'm pretty sure *most* people out there wouldn't like it if their guests kept playing with the AC all the time because they "feel hot" (when everyone else is fine) and decide it's time to turn the air back on (also, this is what fans are for). Plus, the fact that he actually went to adjust the thermostat at a large dim sum restaurant on behalf of *all* the patrons reveals a larger issue at hand - he obviously *needs* to have control over whatever he can. If he can't control the level of comfort he prescribes for himself also without it being inconvenient at the same time, he will go absolutely ballistic. 

The way my wife and I are cultured, it IS out of line to blow up at your in-law the way he did regarding the restaurant. I think my in-laws were in utter shock when he did that. Of course, all they do is shake their heads internally and won't say a word. It's an Asian culture shame thing. In fact, he really could have said *exactly* what you stated ("ugh, just make a decision already") without the additional drama and [what we consider to be] profanity. At least he tried to apologize to us afterwards - I'm sure he felt bad for exploding like that...

Yea, I suppose I could have kept putting my foot down and declining despite my wife's insistence that I go...I guess I'm a sucker :P Afterwards, my wife kept telling me "I didn't know it would take him *that* long to decide on what he was getting. He kept changing his mind while in line." Our kids are like a ticking time bomb (aren't most kids this way?) - sometimes they're fine and sometimes they're not - you can't always predict how they'll be, and we had no idea it would turn out like it did. The fact that he kept extending the shopping trip, when it was visibly obvious that our kids were fussy, wasn't cool - he could have at least acknowledged it and said "Oh sorry guys! It'll just be a few minutes longer! I'll make it quick" but he was oblivious to it. Let this be a learning experience of their tolerance I suppose... anyway, he's a one hour flight away so it's really not an 'inconvenience' for him when he travels (he doesn't check anything in either - everything is carry-on), especially given the fact that he gets to be chauffeured around every time he visits because he can't stand driving himself around. Of course, he's somewhat lightened up on his expectations that we can chauffeur him around all of LA/OC at any given moment when we have two kids now (my wife actually had to put her foot down about this after our first kid because he was being all 'idealistic' about what we would all do and where we would be taking him during that time. After that he sort of backed off on the chauffeur requests at least with us - I think part of the time he had his friend up in LA drive him around).

rather than try to weasel out of shopping by daring your wife to squeeze into a cramped spot (no brownie points with the wife there, either), you need to either say you aren't going (period, end of sentence, no room for debate) or set a limit on how long you're willing to go and then stick to it.

Just wanted to make some clarification on the whole backseat thing: my wife openly acknowledged that the *only* option would be for her to squeeze into the back (there is no way I could or should try to fit back there - my hips are way too wide LOL). She was more than willing to do this in light of getting me to go along. I simply told her "okay, if you really want me to come, and as long as you can get back there and are comfortable then fine" - I don't think my wife would say that I "dared" her to do anything, and there was no "loss of brownie points" as a result of this hahaha. That said, I should have just said "no I don't want to go. You guys can all go but I'm staying" although this actually would have resulted in lost brownie points since she would feel like I'm ditching her and she has to take the kids AND her brother, etc.(even though I initially offered to stay with the older one at home...). But I suppose that telling her "no" would have been worth the loss of those brownie points in favor of not having to deal with her brother and the aftermath of having whiny kids while waiting for him

I would give this guy a job to do while he's visiting. I have an older female relative exactly like this. When she visits we have a dinner and catch up for all the local relatives. I leave the organising of that to her. I got her to take it over by asking for her help with the organising, and she managed to take over as I knew she would. Now when she comes down she's full of plans how to top the previous visit, and most of her visit seems to be consumed with achieving this. It's blissful!

The funny thing is, I noticed our bathroom was just as clean (if not cleaner) than before he visited...! I'm pretty certain he wiped down the counters and mirrors. He is extremely OCD (yet he'll wear his shoes in his house and throw dirty luggage/bags on the bed which seems counter-intuitive if you're OCD AND Asian). My wife and I often catch him vigorously rubbing down counters and picking crumbs off the carpet. It's somewhat entertaining hahaha.  The bonus is that we probably don't have to clean the bathroom as much as we normally would when we have guests over. That might be the best thing that came out of his visit. Speaking of 'organization' etc, he would probably make a great interior designer because he'll often talk about pieces of furniture and where things should go. Our couch has a little rip/hole in the middle and every time he visits he has to comment on it and tell us we need to get a new couch. "Yea, we probably should at some point..." is what we tell him. Next time we'll say "you're more than welcome to buy one for us and have it delivered here" - he would probably do it too, as a Christmas or Bday gift to my wife hahaha.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 10:31:01 AM by jeromedawg »

jeromedawg

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2017, 10:39:49 AM »
Some thoughts:

1.  Can you play BIL Bingo?  Make a list of the annoying things he says/does, and each of you gets 5 on the list.  The first one to hit all 5 has to find a way to work the word "bingo" into conversation, without being noticed.

2.  Just say no.  You are right to defer to your wife in general, as it is her brother.  However, this is also your house, you are an introvert, he is overwhelming, and you have the right to do what you need to to preserve your own sanity.  Don't argue, don't engage, just repeat "no thanks, that won't work," or "no thanks, I'll just stay here."  It is not being rude, it is not "telling him off," it is simply setting a boundary and then sticking to it.   

3.  Next visit, talk with your wife in advance about what boundaries to set.  You can say you are concerned because he causes her so much stress, that she swallows a bunch of stuff and then blows up, and what can you do to help set some boundaries so she doesn't get to the breaking point?  E.g., there is NOT A DAMN THING WRONG with telling him to rent a car or letting him borrow yours -- he is a grown-ass man, if he wants to get himself somewhere at a time that is not convenient, he can drive himself.  That is actually the very first boundary I would set, because there is nothing like forcing yourself to rejigger your schedule at the drop of a hat, with small children to deal with, to magnify all of the other problems. 

4.  Where I would call him out is if he insults your wife's cooking.  I don't care how close you are with someone, that is unacceptable.  The key here, though, is being calm and direct, not angry and attacking -- e.g., "please don't insult my wife's cooking, she worked hard to make this for us."  And that's it -- again, don't engage, don't escalate or yell or insult, just calmly repeat the same phrase.

5.  Read 1-2-3 Magic -- for him, not your kids!  He is acting like a toddler, so treat him like one.  Try to see it as less ego and more insecurity; how tough must it be to live in his head when he has to talk all the time because he is so terrified to listen to his own thoughts and can't tolerate the idea of not being the center of attention for one second?  Good Lord, that sounds exhausting and miserable. [This was my DD, btw: she put on a huge show about needing to control everything precisely because she felt so fragile inside]  The image that stuck with me from that book is the parent as the horse, and the kid as the horsefly buzzing around, and the horse just doesn't even notice it, just periodically swats its tail to knock it off and goes on grazing.  You can't let him see that he's getting to you, because that is the payoff he is looking for -- it tells him that he matters, that he has the power in that situation.  The more you can set a boundary in advance, and then stick to it, and then not engage or argue when he pitches a hissy about it, the more you establish yourself as the one with power -- and the more likely he will be to fall into line in the end.

I want to say this again, because I think it is the single-most important thing:  when you either give in to his demands OR refuse but let him get you angry, you are giving him the power to control you.  He pokes, you comply; he pokes again, you yell.  That is exactly what he wants.  The only way to reclaim your power is to have clear lines for what you will and won't do/accept, enforce them consistently, and never ever ever let him see that he is getting under your skin.  No yelling, no arguing, no engaging at all -- just a calm, repeated response that enforces the boundary.  [Hint: if you find yourself getting angry, it means that you have let him slide too far over the boundary already]  Added bonus that not being able to get a rise out of you will drive him completely bat-shit crazy.

6.  Expect giant fireworks and hissy fits regardless of what you do.  When someone like him realizes he is losing the ability to get under your skin, he will immediately ramp up the behavior to get a reaction.  You have to expect that and be prepared for it and let it blow over -- if you stick to the plan and don't cave on his stupid demands, it will blow over and he will learn to behave better.  Or he'll decide that you're not worth his time if he can't re-establish his dominance and go pester someone else.  So, win-win.

Thanks haha. Just wanted to clarify with the whole cooking thing too that it wasn't my wife's cooking he was complaining about (though he probably would if she used non nitrate-free bacon). He was complaining about my MIL (his mom's) cooking. I thought that was pretty rude and my wife said her mom was just shaking her head, but of course none of them will say anything. Not sure if it's within my 'right' to call him out on things like that either...

My wife and in-laws really value "keeping the peace" above all other things, even if it means at their own expense. This has been the pattern with him, but with our family (especially now with two kids) I don't think we have the headroom to deal with all his drama and crap. So boundaries will need to be set. I've already been discussing with my wife.

ysette9

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2017, 10:52:00 AM »
How about approaching it from a different perspective? You have kids now and it is your job to be role models of how to treat people and how to allow others to treat you. Maybe your wife would get on board more easily if you spun it that way. It is absolutely crucial to teach kids by demonstration that you treat people respectfully and call people out on bad behavior. It is what you do with them (presumably) and the behaviors your BIL is displaying would be unacceptable coming from your kids, right? So maybe your response to him can be more generic like "our house rules are to xxx".

I think it is easy for people to recognize they need to teach kids to be polite and well behaved. What we are running into with our own toddler now is that she mostly is well behaved but doesn't feel she can stand up for herself when others do things to her she doesn't like. Just yesterday I was telling her that if the kid at daycare pulls her hair she has to say "no!". My point is that an equally important life skill to learn is the confidence to set the expectation that you will be treated well by others and not tolerate, for lack of a softer word, abuse.

Pigeon

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2017, 11:15:15 AM »
If he were my relative, I'd figure there's no need to blow a gasket and chew him out.

We'd just not be spending much time with him, and when we did, it would be in a situation where we had control.  We wouldn't be inviting him to stay with us, and if he invited himself, that would not be possible without additional explanation.  Learning that "no" is a complete sentence, and getting comfortable with periods of silence is very helpful.  His not  renting a car is annoying, but could also be characterized as mustachian. ;)

If you are visiting at another location, say your wife's parents house, I'd have an escape route.  I'd stay at a motel so we could leave if he got to be too annoying.

I have BILs that I don't like and it helps a great deal to not be staying under the same roof with them.  If one of them gets on my last nerve, we just have to invent a reason to leave.

Hunny156

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2017, 11:32:13 AM »
Just wanted to chime in that we too have similar family dynamics that enabled certain family members to behave badly when visiting.  Nothing ingrained due to culture, just the typical "this is the way it's always been" type of madness.

Hubby & I had hit a rough patch in our marriage several years back, and had successfully completed marriage counseling and were moving in the right direction when his parents were scheduled to visit.  It was like our first big test - they didn't get along well, and they often would attempt to speak ill of the other or drag us into their arguments.  They would do the same at my BIL's house, even bringing the neighbors into their drama!

So after discussing how to handle this dreaded part of their visit, we made an appt w/our counselor to discuss how to handle it.  He coached us on the concept of setting boundaries and consequences, and enforcing those consequences if the boundaries were violated.  He also advised us that since it was hubby's family, he had to broach the subject with me there, so they understood it was a united front, but it was up to him to do the talking.  Had it been my family, then I would be responsible for having the conversation.

We went home and made a list of topics we wanted to cover.  Hubby, being in sales, used the sh*t sandwhich approach, which worked really well.  So we made the call, told them how much we were looking forward to their visit, but as they were guests in our home, we expected them to keep their arguments outside of our home and not in our company.  If they were unable to do so, we'd bring them to a local hotel where they could spend the night, and we'd pick them up the next day and start over.

It was awkward, to say the least, but they agreed to the terms, made some noise about how they would never behave that way anyhow, and we all ended the conversation on a positive note about how it would be a good trip.

A week later, we got home to a message from the FIL, asking us to call him back.  We suspected he was annoyed and looking to lash out, so we never returned the call.  They would be arriving within a few days anyhow, so anything he had to say, he could say in person.  (He never did, b/c it's harder to have a confrontation in person!)

The trip went really well.  10 days in our house, and only once did they start arguing while upstairs in their bedroom.  As soon as I heard some noise, I muted the TV to determine if they were breaking the rules.  If they did continue to argue, it was done in hushed tones.  Once they left, hubby & I were blown away.  The advice seemed to hard due to the family dynamics, we were certain they'd respond to "A" in "B" fashion, we had lots of reasons to decide in advance that it wouldn't work.  Once we bit the bullet and did provide the ground rules, they actually followed along!  Who knew, boundaries actually work!

Perhaps you try to set up some very small boundaries prior to the next visit, and test the waters that way.  Best of luck!!

ABC123

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2017, 12:12:49 PM »
How often is he there?  If it is a few days once a year, then just suck it up and deal with a slightly higher electric bill.  If you don't want to go shopping, offer to keep the kids and let your wife go with her brother.  Win for everyone. 

jeromedawg

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2017, 03:43:54 PM »
How often is he there?  If it is a few days once a year, then just suck it up and deal with a slightly higher electric bill.  If you don't want to go shopping, offer to keep the kids and let your wife go with her brother.  Win for everyone.

It's not often - maybe once a year. But it feels like he stayed twice as long because of how much he overextended himself. My wife is *exhausted* today and started getting a cold sore. Usually this comes from being over-stressed, and she can say with good confidence that her brother pushed her over the edge in that regard.
It's not as big a deal if our electric bill goes up as it is him exerting/assuming control over things (that he shouldn't be) and out of pure selfishness. I think in the case of shopping, he wanted at least her AND the kids to go so he could "spend time" with them. But that's not happening next time. Yea, I think I'll offer to watch both kids if that happens again and he's insistent on going out. He has plenty of time to spend with the kids outside of shopping, which is when we're just at home and he gets to play with them every other minute of the day. My wife and I, thinking about it more, have come to the realization that he has major control issues - he's a selfish control-freak and tries to control situations any way he can so that it serves his own best interest first. Putting that into context, all of his behavior starts making sense.
We're still discussing all this and playing out future scenarios but now that we realize it, I think we're going to start being more adamant about his visits and saying "no" to things. For one, I think we have to really plan out the weekend so that nothing is left open-ended because that's when he'll jump in and try to make plans, which is pretty much what happened. I told my wife that she needs to speak up more to him and also on behalf of her parents when he starts criticizing them (especially when they cook for him using ingredients he doesn't 'approve' of). 

On that note, he texted my wife "Thanks for hosting me this weekend. I had a relaxing time and it was good spending time with all of you..." or something along those lines. My wife simply responded "I'm glad you had a relaxing time"

SwordGuy

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2017, 04:57:42 PM »
My wife generally left dealing with my parent's bad behavior to me, and I generally left her parent's bad behavior to her.

That generally worked because we both stepped up to the plate and did our part.

Early on in our marriage, my MIL would call at 7:30am on Saturday mornings to chat.

I confess I got tired of having our weekend "snuggle time" being interrupted, so I picked up the phone and said, "Who the HELL is calling us at this time of morning?!"   Problem solved.



Pizzabrewer

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2017, 05:01:52 PM »

It's not often - maybe once a year. But it feels like he stayed twice as long because of how much he overextended himself.

Dude.  You need to man-up and set some clear ground rules or it will never improve.  Cultural norms or no, he's abusing you and your wife. 

jeromedawg

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2017, 05:28:25 PM »
My wife generally left dealing with my parent's bad behavior to me, and I generally left her parent's bad behavior to her.

That generally worked because we both stepped up to the plate and did our part.

Early on in our marriage, my MIL would call at 7:30am on Saturday mornings to chat.

I confess I got tired of having our weekend "snuggle time" being interrupted, so I picked up the phone and said, "Who the HELL is calling us at this time of morning?!"   Problem solved.

LOL! That's a tactic... ;)


It's not often - maybe once a year. But it feels like he stayed twice as long because of how much he overextended himself.

Dude.  You need to man-up and set some clear ground rules or it will never improve.  Cultural norms or no, he's abusing you and your wife. 

Yea, we're not doing it "his way" moving forward. This is just the 2nd or 3rd time he's stayed at our place and I think he might want to make it a 'regular' yearly thing since he has a nephew and niece now. But even with that we're going to have to temper his expectations and deny him - that's going to be really hard for my wife but it is what it is: we need to prioritize our immediate family and kids, not him.

Prior to us having any kids, he would usually stay with his friend in LA and we would just go up there to hang out with him. The first time he stayed it was when we didn't have kids so it was whatever - yea kind of annoying that he wanted to go here and there but not a huge deal. When we had just one kid the time that he did stay it was just for 1 or 2 nights max and it was relatively low key as my wife had post-partum and I think he somewhat backed off on being so demanding (with the exception of his little meltdown over eating somewhere before the airport). This time was different though - we truly discovered how big of a PITA he really is - I knew we were up for bat in terms of being irritated but this was beyond our expectations. The dude is just flat out nuts... another anecdote: the guy takes *at least* 2-3 showers a day depending on how "dirty" he feels (e.g. the day he flew home he took a shower in the morning, then again before leaving for the airport, and of course after arriving home [my wife just knows this is the case]. I really don't understand him wanting to shower before flying...). My wife discovered that he even grabbed a second set of towels during his stay here. He complained to her about how there were little bleach spots on the towels she gave him, but she was like "oh well" and I guess he used them - I'm not sure if he got new towels because the bleach spots grossed him out or if he just wanted a "fresh" set after using the original a couple times. If I'm at a hotel I'll typically just use a new towel every day, or maybe twice, but that's because I'm staying at a HOTEL not someone's house. If I'm a guest at someone's house I'm going to use whatever they provide for as long as I'm there (unless they want to do laundry of course). In this case, he grabbed the towels on his own initiative without asking my wife - she only realized this upon seeing the second set of towels hanging in the bathroom after he left and we were cleaning up. 
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 05:42:04 PM by jeromedawg »

ysette9

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2017, 08:55:02 AM »
The BIL is almost sounding like he's got some sort of untreated mental disorder underlying some of this.

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2017, 09:05:27 AM »
You should just slap him good one time and call him a little bitch......

or let your wife handle it more respectfully as suggested in several of the posts above, lol.

Sounds like a tough guy to deal with. Good job on keeping your cool IRL man.

jeromedawg

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2017, 09:22:49 AM »
The BIL is almost sounding like he's got some sort of untreated mental disorder underlying some of this.

It sounds like it, the more I think about it. My wife and I have also noticed that he doesn't listen and will repeat the same question multiple times despite answering him. For example, he asked me how many vacation days I have. A couple days later he asked me the exact same question. My wife thinks it's early signs of dementia but it seems like he just isn't listening or perhaps has something else completely on his mind while he's asking the question. Anyway, I really think he has OCD. My wife told me it took him like 15-20 minutes to pack his small suitcase with 5 shirts in it. He had to fold his shirts *perfectly* or he wouldn't pack them. It took him several tries to fold each shirt to his liking before putting them in. She was just sitting there watching him and dying the whole time. I reminded her that he used to work at a Ralph Lauren store and it somewhat clicked, but being that crazy about your own suitcase/clothes seems a bit off. He also insists on "needing" a cup of coffee every morning as another one of his 'rituals' - he absolutely cannot function without it nor can he go to the bathroom (#2) if he doesn't have it. I totally forgot about this but last time he visited (when we had a kid and she had post-partum) he would ask my wife to drive him to get coffee every day(even though there's a Starbucks around the corner within walking distance); he enjoys sleeping in, so one morning my wife, on her own prerogative, drove over to the Starbucks and brought him back a coffee so that he wouldn't complain later. This time she picked up a bag of Sumatra several weeks ahead of time in anticipation of his visit, so that he wouldn't ask her to take him out to get coffee every morning while we have two kids. So yea, she and my in-laws pretty much cater to and feed his OCD.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 09:44:26 AM by jeromedawg »

ooeei

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2017, 09:59:16 AM »
My girlfriend is Chinese and I see a lot of similarities in how confrontations work.  Granted, in her family it's the grandparents who get "even if it's ridiculous you just go with it because of respect" treatment.  My girlfriend has started setting boundaries, and LOVES it.  Her parents' generation is a lost cause, but trust me you CAN set the boundaries, and they will work.  Just act really perplexed when he asks you to do something crazy, and frame everything lightheartedly.   

Doesn't like dinner?  "Hey how about you cook tomorrow, we're always looking to try new things!  Kids would you like if uncle blah blah cooked for you? Look how excited they are!"  He'll either cook or shut up about it.

Wants to go to whatever shopping center?  "I'll be out for groceries later, I can drop you by there when I go shopping and come get you after.  Uber is really fast around here too if you want to go on your own time."  Then if he's not ready when you get back and doesn't come out when you call him, you just drive home because you have stuff that needs to get to the freezer.  When he calls you frantically to pick him up just say you're busy cooking or doing yardwork or whatever and it'd be easier if he called a cab or uber or whatever.

Asking to take him to Starbucks, I'd just tell him he can walk and be done with it.  Suggest that you take the kids and walk with him to get them out of the house.  Either you get a family walk outside which is probably not a bad thing, or he stops asking.

Set the boundaries, if he becomes a brat about it so be it.  I promise once you break through and start doing it you'll both be so much happier.  Work up to the thermostat conversation after you've set some other boundaries with success.  Gotta crawl before you can walk.

jeromedawg

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2017, 01:48:08 PM »
My girlfriend is Chinese and I see a lot of similarities in how confrontations work.  Granted, in her family it's the grandparents who get "even if it's ridiculous you just go with it because of respect" treatment.  My girlfriend has started setting boundaries, and LOVES it.  Her parents' generation is a lost cause, but trust me you CAN set the boundaries, and they will work.  Just act really perplexed when he asks you to do something crazy, and frame everything lightheartedly.   

Doesn't like dinner?  "Hey how about you cook tomorrow, we're always looking to try new things!  Kids would you like if uncle blah blah cooked for you? Look how excited they are!"  He'll either cook or shut up about it.

Wants to go to whatever shopping center?  "I'll be out for groceries later, I can drop you by there when I go shopping and come get you after.  Uber is really fast around here too if you want to go on your own time."  Then if he's not ready when you get back and doesn't come out when you call him, you just drive home because you have stuff that needs to get to the freezer.  When he calls you frantically to pick him up just say you're busy cooking or doing yardwork or whatever and it'd be easier if he called a cab or uber or whatever.

Asking to take him to Starbucks, I'd just tell him he can walk and be done with it.  Suggest that you take the kids and walk with him to get them out of the house.  Either you get a family walk outside which is probably not a bad thing, or he stops asking.

Set the boundaries, if he becomes a brat about it so be it.  I promise once you break through and start doing it you'll both be so much happier.  Work up to the thermostat conversation after you've set some other boundaries with success.  Gotta crawl before you can walk.

Hahaha thanks. We're already playing out scenarios and discussing how we will handle it the next time he plans to visit. I think because we have two kids, especially, he's more motivated to visit and stay with us. In fact, my wife was venting about all this to my MIL, who then told her "don't worry, I will talk to him but I won't say that you said any of this. I'll try to dissuade him from visiting you from now on" in more or less words [in Chinese]. Apparently the conversation happened and my MIL recapped my wife on it, saying how she told him "your nephew can't sleep well because you're staying in his room and he's not used to sleeping in the other room" (our son's "room" where his crib is, is the guest room, so we stick him in a pack n play and put him in the den/my current WFH office - that's a whole different topic though that I won't broach) and also told him "they were really tired after you visited this weekend. you shouldn't come down as often. we'll go up to visit you instead" LOL!! He just sort of shrugged it off saying "no he was fine" (regarding our son... as if it's his son...!!) and "You're *all* going to come visit me at the same time?" implying that he's going to continue with these visits.

Next time we're going to suggest that he stay with his friend in LA for a couple days. If he wants to stay with us, we're going to try to plan it so that it's as short as possible (1-2 days MAX). And once it has been established we're going to plan out the day and not leave it open-ended. It's worth the front-loading of planning to avoid having him dictate going out, etc. If he's still a PITA about it, I think my wife will need to tell him off. But yea, those strategies of getting the ball back into his court are good ones. The problem is my wife has trouble saying "no" to anyone, and her brother is no exception. I think from his perspective too, he's with "family" so he probably feels like it's normal and the status-quo that he should lecture his family members and dictate what they do to a certain extent.

Speaking of Uber, I recall last year when we went up there to see a concert in SF, we asked if he could drop us off and the pick us back up from the venue and drop us off at the Bart station down the street. He obliged to dropping us off but then declined picking us up because "it would take him like 30 minutes just to get there" - this was on a weekend btw, and it's not like we were asking him to pick us up and drive us back to the East Bay. It was raining that night too, and we felt walking to BART wouldn't be too comfortable. So ultimately, we ended up grabbing an Uber to take us back across. I reminded my wife of that situation when she told me how "it has always been this way" in terms of her driving him around wherever he wants to go. She has to bend over backwards for him (though she would never say that's the case even though ever since she's gotten her license she's chauffeured him literally everywhere/anywhere whenever he has visited) yet he can't even reciprocate to the same extent.

It literally feels like we're expected to host royalty when he comes to town. With no kids it's not that big of a deal because there's more headroom to write-off selfish behavior. But when you have one or more kids, there's no room for any of that. I honestly didn't realize it was going to be like having to take care of 2 little kids and 1 big brat... at least to this extent. I knew he would be annoying with some of his requests, as usual, but this was just plain irritating and exhausting.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 02:01:41 PM by jeromedawg »

ooeei

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2017, 03:06:35 PM »
My girlfriend is Chinese and I see a lot of similarities in how confrontations work.  Granted, in her family it's the grandparents who get "even if it's ridiculous you just go with it because of respect" treatment.  My girlfriend has started setting boundaries, and LOVES it.  Her parents' generation is a lost cause, but trust me you CAN set the boundaries, and they will work.  Just act really perplexed when he asks you to do something crazy, and frame everything lightheartedly.   

Doesn't like dinner?  "Hey how about you cook tomorrow, we're always looking to try new things!  Kids would you like if uncle blah blah cooked for you? Look how excited they are!"  He'll either cook or shut up about it.

Wants to go to whatever shopping center?  "I'll be out for groceries later, I can drop you by there when I go shopping and come get you after.  Uber is really fast around here too if you want to go on your own time."  Then if he's not ready when you get back and doesn't come out when you call him, you just drive home because you have stuff that needs to get to the freezer.  When he calls you frantically to pick him up just say you're busy cooking or doing yardwork or whatever and it'd be easier if he called a cab or uber or whatever.

Asking to take him to Starbucks, I'd just tell him he can walk and be done with it.  Suggest that you take the kids and walk with him to get them out of the house.  Either you get a family walk outside which is probably not a bad thing, or he stops asking.

Set the boundaries, if he becomes a brat about it so be it.  I promise once you break through and start doing it you'll both be so much happier.  Work up to the thermostat conversation after you've set some other boundaries with success.  Gotta crawl before you can walk.

Hahaha thanks. We're already playing out scenarios and discussing how we will handle it the next time he plans to visit. I think because we have two kids, especially, he's more motivated to visit and stay with us. In fact, my wife was venting about all this to my MIL, who then told her "don't worry, I will talk to him but I won't say that you said any of this. I'll try to dissuade him from visiting you from now on" in more or less words [in Chinese]. Apparently the conversation happened and my MIL recapped my wife on it, saying how she told him "your nephew can't sleep well because you're staying in his room and he's not used to sleeping in the other room" (our son's "room" where his crib is, is the guest room, so we stick him in a pack n play and put him in the den/my current WFH office - that's a whole different topic though that I won't broach) and also told him "they were really tired after you visited this weekend. you shouldn't come down as often. we'll go up to visit you instead" LOL!! He just sort of shrugged it off saying "no he was fine" (regarding our son... as if it's his son...!!) and "You're *all* going to come visit me at the same time?" implying that he's going to continue with these visits.

Next time we're going to suggest that he stay with his friend in LA for a couple days. If he wants to stay with us, we're going to try to plan it so that it's as short as possible (1-2 days MAX). And once it has been established we're going to plan out the day and not leave it open-ended. It's worth the front-loading of planning to avoid having him dictate going out, etc. If he's still a PITA about it, I think my wife will need to tell him off. But yea, those strategies of getting the ball back into his court are good ones. The problem is my wife has trouble saying "no" to anyone, and her brother is no exception. I think from his perspective too, he's with "family" so he probably feels like it's normal and the status-quo that he should lecture his family members and dictate what they do to a certain extent.

Speaking of Uber, I recall last year when we went up there to see a concert in SF, we asked if he could drop us off and the pick us back up from the venue and drop us off at the Bart station down the street. He obliged to dropping us off but then declined picking us up because "it would take him like 30 minutes just to get there" - this was on a weekend btw, and it's not like we were asking him to pick us up and drive us back to the East Bay. It was raining that night too, and we felt walking to BART wouldn't be too comfortable. So ultimately, we ended up grabbing an Uber to take us back across. I reminded my wife of that situation when she told me how "it has always been this way" in terms of her driving him around wherever he wants to go. She has to bend over backwards for him (though she would never say that's the case even though ever since she's gotten her license she's chauffeured him literally everywhere/anywhere whenever he has visited) yet he can't even reciprocate to the same extent.

It literally feels like we're expected to host royalty when he comes to town. With no kids it's not that big of a deal because there's more headroom to write-off selfish behavior. But when you have one or more kids, there's no room for any of that. I honestly didn't realize it was going to be like having to take care of 2 little kids and 1 big brat... at least to this extent. I knew he would be annoying with some of his requests, as usual, but this was just plain irritating and exhausting.

For what it's worth, if she has a tough time saying no, just have her blame it on you.  "I'd love to pick you up but jeromedawg needs the car for blah blah, just grab an Uber."  That will be easy because he won't be able to argue with her about it, because he's talking to her but you're the one he has to convince.  Hopefully that makes sense.  That's what I did with my girlfriend, although her family loves me so they were pretty eager to avoid inconveniencing me.  Now she's pretty good at standing up for herself, but having me as the scapegoat was really helpful for awhile (and still is occasionally).

As for the thermostat, if worst comes to worst you could get a digital one that requires a password or something, although I'd recommend just telling him you like the house at 75 or whatever it is.  If he turns it down make a comment that it's freezing and pretend to be uncomfortable, and remind him you want it at 75.  Always end with something like "We really are happy to have you stay here, but if the thermostat is a big deal to you there is a hotel right down the road."  Just make sure you say it very genuinely as if you do actually want him to stay.

Keeping everything very lighthearted and positive goes a long way.  When you tell him something, act as if it's your fault and you forgot to tell him.  "Oh hey actually we like to keep the house at 75, my bad I forgot to tell you."  "Yeah the car's a little messy, that's just the kind of week we're having."  Always say it with a smile and it's going to be hard for him to argue without being a straight up dick, since none of your requests are unreasonable.  If the in-laws or someone comments about it from his side, I find it helpful to repeat what they want.  For example if they say something about making him get an uber:  "So you're saying when he comes to visit and we host him and pay for all of his food, we're also supposed to be his personal drivers while we raise our two kids, rather than let him rent a car?"  When you spell it out it obviously sounds crazy, and you can say "Yeah we're not doing that, we don't have time" or something and you won't sound as bad as simply getting defensive.  Again, staying upbeat and casual is a good strategy.

edit:  One more addition.  In my girlfriend's family it seems like they all are absolutely terrified to make a scene or have an uncomfortable moment, and will do anything to avoid it.  This means whoever IS willing to make a scene or stand an awkward confrontation gets whatever they want no matter how unfair or one sided it is.  In this case it's your BIL.  You (or your wife) have to be willing to handle more, or at least as much as he does, or he owns you.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 03:17:49 PM by ooeei »

paddedhat

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2017, 02:47:24 PM »
I fear that I'm the "in law from Hell," in the eyes of my sibling's spouses.

Us Indians have a lifescript that's drilled into us when we are young. We are supposed to

a. Play tennis
b. Become doctors/lawyers/engineers
c. Marry a fellow Indian
d. Have 2-3 kids
e. Associate almost exclusively with fellow Indians, acceptable to have white friends if they are from work/networking otherwise keep to a minimum

I have failed all of these, whereas my siblings and spouses have done everything except B (though they all a masters, Phd, or MBA so I'm sure their parents forgive them this oversight).

Here in the northeast, you forgot to list "F" which is driving a Honda or Toyota minivan. I don't know why, but it's an absolute Indian requirement in these parts.  The wife and I had a running joke about Indian love for these vans. We lived in a vacation community with a handful of massive, five and six bedroom rental homes. Think three stories, 3500-5000 sq. ft. of space, multiple living areas, and plenty of room for at least two dozen people. If we were approaching one, as we were out for a walk, and saw a driveway stuffed full of cars in the distance, we would guess who the clients were, before we got to the house.  Entry level BMWs, Audis, etc typically meant a frat boy weekend, basically a large collection of drunken, self-absorbed assholes. High end black euro cars, five series Mercedes, G-wagons, seven series bimmers etc..... were usually young russian mob types, typically accompanied by nearly naked "girlfriends" if the weather was warm enough. Land Rovers, and Volvo or Audi Faux off road wagons with a grand worth of roof rack hardware, kayaks, bikes on the back, and young kids playing, meant  NYC dwellers who were enjoying the woods while trying to be as hip as their LL Bean credit card will allow..  Most times our guesses were pretty accurate, but the only time we were 100% dead on was if there were nothing but Toyota and Honda minivans in the driveway, usually at least six to eight of them. Without fail we would walk on by and see 20 indian kids having fun, typically playing volleyball in the yard.


HairyUpperLip

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2017, 11:17:13 AM »
I fear that I'm the "in law from Hell," in the eyes of my sibling's spouses.

Us Indians have a lifescript that's drilled into us when we are young. We are supposed to

a. Play tennis
b. Become doctors/lawyers/engineers
c. Marry a fellow Indian
d. Have 2-3 kids
e. Associate almost exclusively with fellow Indians, acceptable to have white friends if they are from work/networking otherwise keep to a minimum

I have failed all of these, whereas my siblings and spouses have done everything except B (though they all a masters, Phd, or MBA so I'm sure their parents forgive them this oversight).

Here in the northeast, you forgot to list "F" which is driving a Honda or Toyota minivan. I don't know why, but it's an absolute Indian requirement in these parts.  The wife and I had a running joke about Indian love for these vans. We lived in a vacation community with a handful of massive, five and six bedroom rental homes. Think three stories, 3500-5000 sq. ft. of space, multiple living areas, and plenty of room for at least two dozen people. If we were approaching one, as we were out for a walk, and saw a driveway stuffed full of cars in the distance, we would guess who the clients were, before we got to the house.  Entry level BMWs, Audis, etc typically meant a frat boy weekend, basically a large collection of drunken, self-absorbed assholes. High end black euro cars, five series Mercedes, G-wagons, seven series bimmers etc..... were usually young russian mob types, typically accompanied by nearly naked "girlfriends" if the weather was warm enough. Land Rovers, and Volvo or Audi Faux off road wagons with a grand worth of roof rack hardware, kayaks, bikes on the back, and young kids playing, meant  NYC dwellers who were enjoying the woods while trying to be as hip as their LL Bean credit card will allow..  Most times our guesses were pretty accurate, but the only time we were 100% dead on was if there were nothing but Toyota and Honda minivans in the driveway, usually at least six to eight of them. Without fail we would walk on by and see 20 indian kids having fun, typically playing volleyball in the yard.

The Indian community is actively working to see if we can start adding nearly naked girlfriends to our parties as well. Thanks for the suggestion. :p

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2017, 07:24:58 AM »
Given the scare quotes he used I think he's implying that including those "girlfriends" would be an added expense up front.

doublethinkmoney

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2017, 07:50:42 AM »
I fear that I'm the "in law from Hell," in the eyes of my sibling's spouses.

Us Indians have a lifescript that's drilled into us when we are young. We are supposed to

a. Play tennis
b. Become doctors/lawyers/engineers
c. Marry a fellow Indian
d. Have 2-3 kids
e. Associate almost exclusively with fellow Indians, acceptable to have white friends if they are from work/networking otherwise keep to a minimum

I have failed all of these, whereas my siblings and spouses have done everything except B (though they all a masters, Phd, or MBA so I'm sure their parents forgive them this oversight).

LOL @ play tennis! It never even occurred to me  but now when I think of it that's just hilarious.

Yea, my in-laws scratch their heads and wonder what happened to their son. He's like crazy OCD and thinks he's right and that everyone should think and live the same way he does, AND he's verbal about it. Another anecdote: we were eating pho the other day and he was watching another table with two girls who he said were making fun of the waiter (or perhaps giving him a hard time?). We were minding our own business and wouldn't have noticed, but he kept staring/glaring at them and started saying stuff out loud like "oh my gosh those girls are so rude. I'm seriously going to cuss them out" - to the point that I'm pretty sure the girls heard him. I was thinking "chill out man; don't cause a scene. And mind your own freaking business" the whole time. This is another reason I hate going out to places with the guy... he has no control over his volume level and starts talking about people and making judgement statements where it's like "uhh, everyone can hear that you're talking sh!t about them" - again, this goes back to zero EQ and awareness. I won't be surprised if he at some point gets *facepunched* for real.

I forgot to mention about the whole AC thing - he's from NorCal and we're in SoCal, so naturally it's 'warmer' for him but we try to keep it around 75-degrees in the house. He can't stand it (yet he complains about how their home up in SF is so cold and he has to run the heater all the time), so he keeps turning the AC lower and we've been playing "AC Wars" - I bet my compressor is going to die any day now because of how much it has been cycling on/off this entire weekend. Finally, I set the lower threshold for cold air (ecobee) to 73 or 74 because he was starting to drop it down to 70, and then he asked my wife "did he lock the AC?" .... LOL!

He would fit in in terms of drama level for any given reality TV show, and you guys would be thoroughly "entertained" I'm sure.

As bad as it sounds, I think he thinks we "like" him more than we actually do (if at all or very minimally!). We (my wife and in-laws) all just consider it "ma-fan" (in Chinese that means trouble/bothersome) when he visits, because everyone has to do cartwheels for him. Even after recently having two kids (and a full car) he doesn't even think twice that maybe he should rent a car to not be a burden on his hosts. Talk about someone overextending themselves... Probably some of it has to do with him being the eldest son but like I already said: he's just ridiculous.
Easier said then done but if he refuses to rent a car and wants to be picked up: don't pick him up if it's inconvenient. If he can't find his way there on his own, problem solved.

Sounds like a real pain in the ass and the definition of entitled. In Asian cultures the eldest son is supposed to one put on the pedestal and MUST be respected by younger siblings. He's totally taking advantage of this and explains why your wife may be hesitant to stand up to him. The social pressure is strong to behave a certain way for those that actually care about it (clearly he has no social pressure to not be a jerk).

I would avoid him at all cost and not ever have him stay at your home again. By letting him behave this way, he's being enabled. Boundaries need to be set. Im married to a Korean and I'm white - I don't have to abide by the social norms that would apply to me (by my inlaws) otherwise as a DIL. Being the submissive and trying to please DIL who lets the MIL invade the privacy of the home. If you can get away with it, use this to your advantage and put him in his place. It's your home and he can't act like he normally does bc it's your house, not just his sisters.

Why can't he stay with his parents?


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paddedhat

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Re: Ugh... my BIL
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2017, 02:00:02 PM »
Given the scare quotes he used I think he's implying that including those "girlfriends" would be an added expense up front.

Yea, I'm pretty sure they were rentals.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!