Author Topic: My BIL's new house  (Read 33108 times)

talltexan

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My BIL's new house
« on: November 29, 2016, 10:26:33 AM »
All the in-laws were visiting my house for Thanksgiving. Everyone else is sooooo excited about this new house my Brother-in-law is buying. It's a $380,000 house, about an hour south of DT St. Louis, for annual income of perhaps $120,000.


Does this sound like a stretch to anyone else here? They aren't really trying to sell their current house (worth perhaps $180,000), but I imagine they will soon. His wife is pretty spendy, doesn't seem to worry about things mustachian...

Chris22

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2016, 10:30:52 AM »
I've always heard the rule of thumb that your house "should be" ~3x your annual income.  So $380k on $120k would follow that rule. 

Beyond that, is it smart?  Way too many variables to say yes or no.

"The now-defunct Washington Mutual Bank suggested up to 4-5 times: As a broad generalization, most people can afford to purchase a house worth about three times their total (gross) annual income, assuming a 20% down payment and a moderate amount of other long-term debts, such as car or student loan payments.Jul 22, 2015"

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=how%20many%20times%20annual%20income%20for%20house

dougules

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2016, 10:39:46 AM »
What does $380k get you in that area?  Here that would be a palace.  In the Bay Area it would be a cardboard box.  Does he have a bunch of kids or something?

He can probably afford it, but it sounds completely frivolous if the area is as LCOL as I'm guessing it is.  You're family's all wowed by it if it's big and fancy, but I hope he likes his job and that it's good and secure. 

I'm guessing he also extended his commute, too?

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2016, 10:53:55 AM »
I've always heard the rule of thumb that your house "should be" ~3x your annual income.  So $380k on $120k would follow that rule. 

Beyond that, is it smart?  Way too many variables to say yes or no.

"The now-defunct Washington Mutual Bank suggested up to 4-5 times: As a broad generalization, most people can afford to purchase a house worth about three times their total (gross) annual income, assuming a 20% down payment and a moderate amount of other long-term debts, such as car or student loan payments.Jul 22, 2015"

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=how%20many%20times%20annual%20income%20for%20house

I've always thought that asking a bank how much I can afford to borrow is a bit like asking a fox to guard the henhouse. Didn't Stanley and Danko recommend that people never have a mortgage balance of more than twice their annual realized income after taxes?

Chris22

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2016, 11:00:14 AM »
I've always heard the rule of thumb that your house "should be" ~3x your annual income.  So $380k on $120k would follow that rule. 

Beyond that, is it smart?  Way too many variables to say yes or no.

"The now-defunct Washington Mutual Bank suggested up to 4-5 times: As a broad generalization, most people can afford to purchase a house worth about three times their total (gross) annual income, assuming a 20% down payment and a moderate amount of other long-term debts, such as car or student loan payments.Jul 22, 2015"

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=how%20many%20times%20annual%20income%20for%20house

I've always thought that asking a bank how much I can afford to borrow is a bit like asking a fox to guard the henhouse. Didn't Stanley and Danko recommend that people never have a mortgage balance of more than twice their annual realized income after taxes?

You'll note WaMu quoted 4-5x, and whatever this source is ratcheted it down to 3x.  Also, it includes a caveat about 20% down, so it's really a mortgage of $300k on $120k.

talltexan

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2016, 11:12:32 AM »
5 BR, 3 BATH house on 4 acres. It's about 10 min extra commute for him, 5 for her. She is really excited about filling it with a bunch of new furniture.

ketchup

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2016, 11:15:09 AM »
5 BR, 3 BATH house on 4 acres. It's about 10 min extra commute for him, 5 for her. She is really excited about filling it with a bunch of new furniture.
Ugh, gross.  If I felt like spending that kind of coin on a house, it would be to move substantially CLOSER to work (I work in an expensive suburb).

TrMama

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2016, 11:19:16 AM »
Wow, you must live in a pretty cheap area. I'd have been thrilled to get something with only a minor rat infestation for $380K.

Maybe their old house will become the first door in their new rental empire.

aFrugalFather

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2016, 11:19:22 AM »
5 BR, 3 BATH house on 4 acres. It's about 10 min extra commute for him, 5 for her. She is really excited about filling it with a bunch of new furniture.

10 min extra on a 1min commute is not bad, but if the commute was already an hour?  The extra signifier doesn't really let people know how far this place is relatively....

MilesTeg

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2016, 11:25:36 AM »
All the in-laws were visiting my house for Thanksgiving. Everyone else is sooooo excited about this new house my Brother-in-law is buying. It's a $380,000 house, about an hour south of DT St. Louis, for annual income of perhaps $120,000.


Does this sound like a stretch to anyone else here? They aren't really trying to sell their current house (worth perhaps $180,000), but I imagine they will soon. His wife is pretty spendy, doesn't seem to worry about things mustachian...

Not Even remotely a stretch in the current market. PITI on that mortgage, even if he financed 100% is still less than 20% of his income. A stretch would be a PITI around 28-30%, which is also the limit of what a bank would lend.

slugline

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2016, 01:34:02 PM »
5 BR, 3 BATH house on 4 acres. It's about 10 min extra commute for him, 5 for her. She is really excited about filling it with a bunch of new furniture.

Come back to this thread (assuming this forum is still up and you remember) in about 18 to 24 months and give us a "hedonic adaptation" update. Let's see if they are still thrilled with the place or if they will be eyeing another upgrade.

Lagom

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2016, 01:41:37 PM »
DW and I are looking to buy a $800-900k house in a couple years with a ~$150-160k combined salary, and still expect to save maybe 40-45% of our income after the purchase, so no it's not too much if they are mustachian. But it sounds like they are not, and also that for the area you live, that house is unnecessarily extravagant (In our case, we expect 3/1 or 3/2 with less than 1,300 square feet. Hooray Bay Area prices!).

Debt to income ratio is probably a more useful metric than salary if we are talking pure affordability. For us, the mortgage will literally be our only debt and even with taxes and insurance should cost about what we would have to pay in rent, maybe a couple hundred more (as long as rates don't rise too much!).

talltexan

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2016, 02:33:58 PM »
COUPLE OF NOTES:

Brother in law admitted they are still making payments on a CR-V (their other car was a graduation gift from their parents/my in-laws). Brother-in-law works as a young attorney in a firm in which SIL's father is a partner. No idea whether he plans to buy in at some point. He commutes roughly 5-7 miles west to the county seat, dropping off kids at daycare on the way. SIL commutes to the city-center (roughly 40 miles North), two days a week, works from home on the other days.

MilesTeg

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2016, 04:05:03 PM »
COUPLE OF NOTES:

Brother in law admitted they are still making payments on a CR-V (their other car was a graduation gift from their parents/my in-laws). Brother-in-law works as a young attorney in a firm in which SIL's father is a partner. No idea whether he plans to buy in at some point. He commutes roughly 5-7 miles west to the county seat, dropping off kids at daycare on the way. SIL commutes to the city-center (roughly 40 miles North), two days a week, works from home on the other days.

So he has pretty much a silver spoon life (well off parents/future inheritance and a guaranteed high paying job in family business) and you are worried about him buying a home that is reasonably affordable even without those life advantages??

russianswinga

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2016, 04:14:21 PM »
Everything depends on the market.
I have an income that *shoud* hit 90K this year (wife is a stay at home mom).
We are hoping to buy a standalone house (3 bedrooms for us, the kid, + office/guest room), with a huge-for-us square footage of 1600 sq feet or so, in the next few years. This will cost $450-550K.

We are currently in a 1200sq ft 2-bedroom condo.
It is valued at $300K, we have about $100K in equity.

If we were in a different part of the country, like North Carolina or Tennessee, we could have not just a McMansion, but an actual mansion for the $300K

If we were in San Jose, California, we would not be able to afford even a standalone house for 1/2 a million. Only a condo.
But... we're in San Diego, where the market is only slightly stupid, not completely irreversibly retarded like it is further north.

So... it's all about the market. 

scottish

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2016, 04:33:29 PM »
Kids in Toronto are dropping low 7 figures on old houses with combined incomes in the $100-$150K range.    They can't get 30 year mortgages up here, so if interest rates jump a percentage point or two they will be pooched when they have to renew.     Leverage gone wild.

the local governments are jumping on the opportunity to tax the snot out of them too.  $20K+ in land transfer taxes, for example.

Goldielocks

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2016, 12:21:08 AM »
Kids in Toronto are dropping low 7 figures on old houses with combined incomes in the $100-$150K range.    They can't get 30 year mortgages up here, so if interest rates jump a percentage point or two they will be pooched when they have to renew.     Leverage gone wild.

the local governments are jumping on the opportunity to tax the snot out of them too.  $20K+ in land transfer taxes, for example.

is that an oxymoron or just sarcasm...   ? (bolded)   I tried to picture a million dollars as a "low 7 figure" number and just couldn't even....  (maybe if the number was odd? Then I could even...but that's backward.. It has a one in it, does that make it odd?)   

.dry humour.

talltexan

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2016, 07:44:07 AM »
I'm actually wondering if Trump's election won't give a second wind to the real estate bubbles in 'Ronto and Vancouver.

boarder42

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2016, 07:57:58 AM »
i feel like someone could easily have written this post up about me and i'll be retired by 37 with over 2MM in the bank. 

just bought a lake front house on the other side of the same state thats a McMansion status - 441k(4bed 3.5bath). (but building what we wanted with lake front lot prices would have been more so i settled for a steal on one thats larger with a bit more wasted space - its about the location) plus i got a 3.25% 30 year rate.  so its like way way free money.

i have payments on both our cars WHY ... b/c interest rates are cheap. 
i have a boat b/c we use the lake but i do it as affordably as possible and am still break even on it. No payment here probably should have one though if i could find a good rate.

the list could go on.. but if you make a higher income its quite easy to save 60%+ and still have some things people would make fun of around here.  could we live in a small house close to work and retire by 33 probably.  but i made a cognitive decision to work 2 more years from our previous 35 goal to move to this house and dont really have any regrets since we made the jump. 

patchyfacialhair

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2016, 08:16:22 AM »
Me personally, I think it's a little too expensive. We make a little more money than them and feel we are pushing it by buying a house less expensive than theirs.

That being said, I don't think it would be a stretch for the average american consumer. They should still be able to save 10-15% for retirement, comfortably pay the mortgage, and still have a ton of money for travelling/restaurants/expensive haircuts.

pancakes

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2016, 08:26:23 AM »
$380k will barely get a 1 bedroom apartment where I live. Granted I live in a completely different country but I know plenty of people here on similar combined incomes to the OP's example who are buying $600k+ houses with a 10% deposit. $380k seems ridiculously cheap to me.

Clearly it depends completely on the market.

RetiredAt63

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2016, 08:37:43 AM »
I'm actually wondering if Trump's election won't give a second wind to the real estate bubbles in 'Ronto TO (the center of the known universe) and Vancouver.
Fixed that for you  ;-)

dogboyslim

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2016, 11:21:25 AM »
I think its too much, but not unreasonable.  We purchased a home at 1.4x annual income. for a mortgage at 1.12x annual income.  That translated to about 15% of monthly expense.  At that rate, we could easily afford all the expensive kids activities and still pack away a good bit of savings, including paying the mortgage at a faster rate.  When I purchased my first home, I was at 3x annual income and I struggled to save much of anything even while living fairly frugally (but not by mmm standards).  I would never come close to that kind of leverage again, and if I had it to do over, I'd not have purchased that place.

adwasy

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2016, 11:30:44 AM »
I don't know if I will ever be able to relate to the United States home prices...

380K at an annual salary of 120K seems incredibly reasonable to me.  I have friends with half the salary (in cdn $) that have put 5% down on shoe-boxes for that price.

Chris22

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2016, 11:35:13 AM »
I don't know if I will ever be able to relate to the United States home prices...

380K at an annual salary of 120K seems incredibly reasonable to me.  I have friends with half the salary (in cdn $) that have put 5% down on shoe-boxes for that price.

Likewise, I've watched property shows that take place in Canada with things like "I'm a barrista, and my wife is an elementary music teacher, and we're budgeting $850-900k for our first home..." that make me say WTF??

hucktard

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2016, 01:40:00 PM »
A $380K house on $120K salary is very reasonable. Especially if BIL is a lawyer, because his salary will likely increase. Their commutes aren't even that long. It may not be super mustachian, but its not crazy spendy pants by any means. They could still save a large fraction of their income if they are frugal in other areas.

Making Cookies

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2016, 02:51:55 PM »
We make good money and owe less on our house than we make per year. Our car broke and DW and I are agreeing nope, don't really want to replace that car. Would rather repair it and drive it several more years. "Hey, what would a paint job cost?" We might paint it ourself. 

Too much fun to watch the accounts build and know that if we want to impulsively do something out of town or replace an appliance out of our fun money we can and not blink an eye.

We'd love to have a big fancy house with fancy furniture and have people walk in and say "WOW" but like Dogboyslim was explaining, not fun to even feel the pinch of your spending. Our college years thin budget is still fresh in my mind despite being a long time ago.

Turnbull

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2016, 03:52:54 PM »

If we were in a different part of the country, like North Carolina or Tennessee, we could have not just a McMansion, but an actual mansion for the $300K


Depends on where you go in Tennessee. If we can stop everyone from moving to Nashville maybe the real estate market wouldn't be going so crazy.

Here's your 300k mansion in Nashville ;) :

http://www.realtracs.com/PropertyDetail.aspx?PropertyClass=RES&DMQL=(AreaID%3d%7c1%2c2%2c3%2c4%2c5%2c6%2c7%2c8)%2c(ListPrice%3d280000-320000)%2c(ListingStatusID%3d1)%2c(OfficeListIsActive%3d1)%2c(IsListedOnInternet%3d1)&AreaID=1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8&MlsNum=1769581&Digest=lvFWuA1kv4PbPERSTzmjiA

SwordGuy

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2016, 04:23:53 PM »

Turnbull

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2016, 04:35:07 PM »
For perspective:

http://www.crackshackormansion.com/

How does a normal person actually live in Vancouver?

Silverado

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2016, 05:13:17 PM »

We'd love to have a big fancy house with fancy furniture and have people walk in and say "WOW" but like Dogboyslim was explaining, not fun to even feel the pinch of your spending.

I'm curious, why would you love to have people say 'wow' because you spent a lot of money? I hear/sense this type of attitude a lot, and just don't understand.

Undecided

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2016, 05:50:03 PM »
I don't know if I will ever be able to relate to the United States home prices...

380K at an annual salary of 120K seems incredibly reasonable to me.  I have friends with half the salary (in cdn $) that have put 5% down on shoe-boxes for that price.

I don't know where in Canada you live, but it's not like the Vancouver/Toronto housing markets stand for all of Canada.

http://www.crea.ca/housing-market-stats/national-average-price-map/

Kansas Terri

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2016, 06:07:28 PM »
I really enjoy looking at wonderful things that other people own! But, in the words of my Mother, "I would hate to have to keep it clean"!

Enjoy you brother's house, but never envy him!!!!!!!!!! I would rather vacuum for 15 minutes than an hour, I would rather clean 2 small bathrooms than one big one, I would rather....

You get the point.

talltexan

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2016, 07:45:29 AM »
Closing date on the house is today.

I shared the numbers and the generally re-assuring feedback from this thread with my wife. Her response: "So does that mean we should buy a bigger house?" I think I'm going to need to start a new thread for that one.

zephyr911

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2016, 08:31:37 AM »
5 BR, 3 BATH house on 4 acres. It's about 10 min extra commute for him, 5 for her. She is really excited about filling it with a bunch of new furniture.
That is the epitome of consumer sucka shit right there. Pay more to spend more obligatory time working and more time driving just for the privilege of having more shit to take care of and more floor space under roof that you need to fill with more shit to take care of and pay for by driving farther to work and- *open mouth insert gun* fucking kill me already. It doesn't even matter if they can easily afford it, it's still dumbass circular thinking.

For perspective:
http://www.crackshackormansion.com/
How does a normal person actually live in Vancouver?
My friends there rent (share) houses, and very small ones unless they have families/groups of 4-6....

"The now-defunct Washington Mutual Bank suggested up to 4-5 times: As a broad generalization....

Do their metrics have anything to do with their now-defunct status?

Our place is worth 1x my annual gross (not counting DW's), debt 85% of that, and I earn the mortgage payment every 1.75 workdays... ;)

mtn

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2016, 08:42:37 AM »
We bought a house for $345 on similar income. It made sense for us. The house is bigger than we need, but about the smallest we could find since anything small gets bought up and replaced with a McMansion.

I don't see the issue with their house. A little big maybe, but I personally would love a huge house, other than heating and cooling it.

adwasy

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2016, 01:39:41 PM »
I don't know if I will ever be able to relate to the United States home prices...

380K at an annual salary of 120K seems incredibly reasonable to me.  I have friends with half the salary (in cdn $) that have put 5% down on shoe-boxes for that price.

I don't know where in Canada you live, but it's not like the Vancouver/Toronto housing markets stand for all of Canada.

http://www.crea.ca/housing-market-stats/national-average-price-map/

I'm new to this forum but I'm already sick of this attitude. I speak from my experience. No shit if I wanted to live in North Battleford I could get a house for less...

Edit: Undecided, did you even read your own link? Average home price in Canada is $481K. I guarantee you that is not for a 5 bed 3 bath house that op is describing. What is the point of your comment?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 01:45:59 PM by Oobleck »

MilesTeg

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2016, 02:05:14 PM »
That is the epitome of consumer sucka shit right there. Pay more to spend more obligatory time working and more time driving just for the privilege of having more shit to take care of and more floor space under roof that you need to fill with more shit to take care of and pay for by driving farther to work and- *open mouth insert gun* fucking kill me already. It doesn't even matter if they can easily afford it, it's still dumbass circular thinking.


This is a post/poster that has drunk way too much of the MMM cool-aid. Real Estate is not a consumer good, and your subjective opinion about the relative issues or merits of this particular house are entirely irrelevant. Perhaps you have no use for anything but a shoe box to sleep in, but there are many quite good uses for a larger house and/or having some land whether it's keeping horses, frequent entertaining, or you are planning for a future that includes children or taking care of elderly family/friends down the road.

In short, get over yourself.

Lagom

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2016, 02:17:43 PM »
That is the epitome of consumer sucka shit right there. Pay more to spend more obligatory time working and more time driving just for the privilege of having more shit to take care of and more floor space under roof that you need to fill with more shit to take care of and pay for by driving farther to work and- *open mouth insert gun* fucking kill me already. It doesn't even matter if they can easily afford it, it's still dumbass circular thinking.


This is a post/poster that has drunk way too much of the MMM cool-aid. Real Estate is not a consumer good, and your subjective opinion about the relative issues or merits of this particular house are entirely irrelevant. Perhaps you have no use for anything but a shoe box to sleep in, but there are many quite good uses for a larger house and/or having some land whether it's keeping horses, frequent entertaining, or you are planning for a future that includes children or taking care of elderly family/friends down the road.

In short, get over yourself.

While I don't completely disagree with your message, I hope you also realize that your argument represents exactly the sort of slippery slope that most spendy consumerists live their lives on. Real estate absolutely can be a consumer good in its own right. There is always a "good reason" to want a bigger house or fancier car, but like with most bad financial decisions, those reasons usually focus on things that have much less effect on happiness than the cost is worth. YMMV, of course, but this is a site for people who believe in the intrinsic value of FI and (generally) a relatively minimalist approach to material things. Opinions vary more widely on the latter, but at a certain point you can't really claim to be "mustachian," nor be upset when others point that out.

MilesTeg

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2016, 02:27:39 PM »
That is the epitome of consumer sucka shit right there. Pay more to spend more obligatory time working and more time driving just for the privilege of having more shit to take care of and more floor space under roof that you need to fill with more shit to take care of and pay for by driving farther to work and- *open mouth insert gun* fucking kill me already. It doesn't even matter if they can easily afford it, it's still dumbass circular thinking.


This is a post/poster that has drunk way too much of the MMM cool-aid. Real Estate is not a consumer good, and your subjective opinion about the relative issues or merits of this particular house are entirely irrelevant. Perhaps you have no use for anything but a shoe box to sleep in, but there are many quite good uses for a larger house and/or having some land whether it's keeping horses, frequent entertaining, or you are planning for a future that includes children or taking care of elderly family/friends down the road.

In short, get over yourself.

While I don't completely disagree with your message, I hope you also realize that your argument represents exactly the sort of slippery slope that most spendy consumerists live their lives on. Real estate absolutely can be a consumer good in its own right. There is always a "good reason" to want a bigger house or fancier car, but like with most bad financial decisions, those reasons usually focus on things that have much less effect on happiness than the cost is worth. YMMV, of course, but this is a site for people who believe in the intrinsic value of FI and (generally) a relatively minimalist approach to material things. Opinions vary more widely on the latter, but at a certain point you can't really claim to be "mustachian," nor be upset when others point that out.

Does being 'mustachian' include being belligerent towards others choices from a position of zero context for that choice? That's the issue I have with the OP that I replied to. The cool-aid drinking position that the ONLY way is the most frugal way and that people who choose otherwise are 'dumbass circular logic consumer suckas' does more damage to the overall good message of MMM than anything else.

TrMama

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2016, 02:38:12 PM »
For perspective:

http://www.crackshackormansion.com/

How does a normal person actually live in Vancouver?

LOL. The last time that game was updated was 2010. For anyone playing it today, double the value of every property to get a 2016 estimate.

Normal people live in Vancouver the same way they do in NYC, Silicon Valley, Hong Kong, London, or any other large city. They live in very small apartments and don't have cars.

Chris22

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2016, 02:39:01 PM »
Does being 'mustachian' include being belligerent towards others choices from a position of zero context for that choice?

Well...yeah.  You've read some of MMM's blog posts, right?

MilesTeg

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2016, 02:47:21 PM »
Does being 'mustachian' include being belligerent towards others choices from a position of zero context for that choice?

Well...yeah.  You've read some of MMM's blog posts, right?

LOL, MMMs schtick is somewhat tiresome, but does he attack people on a personal level whilst being willfully ignorant of context?

Chris22

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2016, 02:50:08 PM »
Does being 'mustachian' include being belligerent towards others choices from a position of zero context for that choice?

Well...yeah.  You've read some of MMM's blog posts, right?

LOL, MMMs schtick is somewhat tiresome, but does he attack people on a personal level whilst being willfully ignorant of context?

Not individuals, but yeah, he does speak in absolutes way more than I think he should. 

zephyr911

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2016, 02:55:04 PM »
This is a post/poster that has drunk way too much of the MMM cool-aid.
The irony. I'm so marginal that I often refer to myself as Must-"ish"-ian. I stated my case in dramatic terms, because I find it amusing to phrase things that way, period. (Hi, I'm Zephyr, have we met? I like dramatic words).
Quote
Real Estate is not a consumer good,
A personal residence absolutely is. It's one of the least worst ones, but it still is. It requires furnishing and upkeep, produces no cash flow, historically tracks the rate of inflation for a real return of 0%, and represents for many people the single largest outlay displacing actual investments.
Wanna talk to me about rentals, I'll tell you about how I'm beating the stock market with transitional multifamilies, but buying a bigger house to live in is a drag on FI. If it's what you really want, it should be the last thing you do before retiring.
Quote
and your subjective opinion about the relative issues or merits of this particular house are entirely irrelevant.
This is a discussion forum. Categorically dismissing the opinions of another on any topic, rather than engaging them on their own merits, is not only rude and uncalled-for, it misses the entire point of our being here and even calls into question the purpose of the site's existence. I've literally never talked to anyone on this forum in such a dismissive fashion and if I ever do, I hope someone calls me out for it.
Quote
Perhaps you have no use for anything but a shoe box to sleep in,
Bad assumption.
Quote
but there are many quite good uses for a larger house and/or having some land whether it's keeping horses, frequent entertaining, or you are planning for a future that includes children or taking care of elderly family/friends down the road.
This is all fine and good, but fundamentally indistinct from upgrading that Scion to a Tahoe, pre-emptively because someday you might need that third row and tow package).
Quote
In short, get over yourself.
Like I said, you're making way too much of perceived tone. We're all here for slightly different reasons, but life hacking to get ahead fast is the general thrust, and doing what this family is doing will put them behind, as opposed to many other alternatives of which we are all aware. I'm not going to apologize for straying into hyperbole while making that statement, because the statement is correct. They are free to make their choices, as are we all, but they would do well to be fully cognizant - as most first-world people are not, and as most LBYM/FI/FIRE/ERE/MMM-ers are, or strive to be - of the cause-and-effect relationships between those choices and their future financial state. Either way, they can do whatever they want. I'm not gonna worry about it... I'll be off pursuing my own agenda of charity work and beach time.
Cheers. :)

Lagom

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2016, 03:17:11 PM »
Does being 'mustachian' include being belligerent towards others choices from a position of zero context for that choice?

Well...yeah.  You've read some of MMM's blog posts, right?

LOL, MMMs schtick is somewhat tiresome, but does he attack people on a personal level whilst being willfully ignorant of context?

The "consumer sucka" monniker is not intended to be a personal attack. It's shorthand for a mindset that many on this board acknowledge they themselves have embodied at various points in their lives. zephyr has responded for himself so I'll just note that as a long time member here, I personally read it as consistent with the jocular "face-punch" philosophy many posters adopt. Either way it remains valid to observe that more often than not, people increase their commute to buy bigger houses for reasons that are decidedly not mustachian. Sure there are "valid" reasons to want a large home, but not very many that don't involve consumeristic reasoning.

MilesTeg

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2016, 03:19:10 PM »
The irony. I'm so marginal that I often refer to myself as Must-"ish"-ian. I stated my case in dramatic terms, because I find it amusing to phrase things that way, period. (Hi, I'm Zephyr, have we met? I like dramatic words).

Translation: you like acting like an immature ass.

Quote
A personal residence absolutely is. It's one of the least worst ones, but it still is. It requires furnishing and upkeep, produces no cash flow, historically tracks the rate of inflation for a real return of 0%, and represents for many people the single largest outlay displacing actual investments.
Wanna talk to me about rentals, I'll tell you about how I'm beating the stock market with transitional multifamilies, but buying a bigger house to live in is a drag on FI. If it's what you really want, it should be the last thing you do before retiring.

A consumer good is something that is consumed, i.e. used up. Things that hold value are not consumed. Of course, that they are not consumer goods doesn't necessarily mean they are the best use of the money. It depends entirely on ... wait for it ... the context of the situation.

Quote
This is a discussion forum. Categorically dismissing the opinions of another on any topic, rather than engaging them on their own merits, is not only rude and uncalled-for, it misses the entire point of our being here and even calls into question the purpose of the site's existence. I've literally never talked to anyone on this forum in such a dismissive fashion and if I ever do, I hope someone calls me out for it.

I did  not categorically dismiss your comments, I pointed out that they were subjective and given while being willfully ignorant of the context of the situation. Also concern trolling from someone who admits they like to act like an immature ass is hilarious.


Quote
This is all fine and good, but fundamentally indistinct from upgrading that Scion to a Tahoe, pre-emptively because someday you might need that third row and tow package).

So buying, say, a 3 bedroom house for 2 people that are going to shortly start a family is indistinct from buying an oversized, depreciating consumer good? That's a pretty ridiculous claim. Again, you are desperately trying to avoid context, because you'd rather use the opportunity to act like an immature ass.

Quote
Like I said, you're making way too much of perceived tone. We're all here for slightly different reasons, but life hacking to get ahead fast is the general thrust, and doing what this family is doing will put them behind, as opposed to many other alternatives of which we are all aware. I'm not going to apologize for straying into hyperbole while making that statement, because the statement is correct. They are free to make their choices, as are we all, but they would do well to be fully cognizant - as most first-world people are not, and as most LBYM/FI/FIRE/ERE/MMM-ers are, or strive to be - of the cause-and-effect relationships between those choices and their future financial state. Either way, they can do whatever they want. I'm not gonna worry about it... I'll be off pursuing my own agenda of charity work and beach time.
Cheers. :)

Ahh, the back tracking at 90mph. however, you re-confirmed that you just like to act like an ass. That's your choice and I won't try to dissuade you from it, but at least have the integrity to own it.

MOD EDIT: Read the forum rules.  If you can't debate a point without being rude, or insulting, please don't post.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 08:30:24 AM by arebelspy »

MilesTeg

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2016, 03:28:32 PM »

The "consumer sucka" monniker is not intended to be a personal attack. It's shorthand for a mindset that many on this board acknowledge they themselves have embodied at various points in their lives. zephyr has responded for himself so I'll just note that as a long time member here, I personally read it as consistent with the jocular "face-punch" philosophy many posters adopt. Either way it remains valid to observe that more often than not, people increase their commute to buy bigger houses for reasons that are decidedly not mustachian. Sure there are "valid" reasons to want a large home, but not very many that don't involve consumeristic reasoning.

I agree that people make poor choices regarding their home purchase, but like I've said many times now, it's all a matter of context. Even MMM acknowledges this.

As far as the jocular "face punch" stuff. That's the worst part of the MMM community. Encouraging childish behavior. But like I told the OP, if you want to act that way I won't try to stop you, but I do expect you to own it for what it is.

But again, I've never seen MMM go after a someone on a personal level sans context. He'll certainly roast someone buying a McMansion with a hummer to commute to his work an hour's drive away, but I've yet to see him attack someone for buying a truck to work their farm.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 03:31:06 PM by MilesTeg »

zephyr911

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2016, 03:29:26 PM »
Hypocrite. You can't simultaneously try to claim the moral high ground while repeating tired insults. When I'm over the mild irritation caused by said insults, I'm just gonna be bored, so don't expect further replies.

MilesTeg

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Re: My BIL's new house
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2016, 03:32:43 PM »
Hypocrite. You can't simultaneously try to claim the moral high ground while repeating tired insults. When I'm over the mild irritation caused by said insults, I'm just gonna be bored, so don't expect further replies.

LOL I love it.

you: I like acting like an asshole
me: well, ok then I guess you're an asshole
you: OMG, why are you insulting me!

LMFAO