Author Topic: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing  (Read 35705 times)

frugalnacho

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2016, 10:21:18 AM »
And she shrugged and said she makes some money from that, but most of her money comes from signing other people up.

Haha! She may as well have said, "it's an illegal pyramid scheme so the real money comes from recruiting people who in turn recruit others, in perpetuity."

Did anyone see the Veep episode a couple of weeks ago where Andrew was pitching Mike a pyramid scheme in Brazil? Too funny.

It's not a pyramid scheme, it's a reverse funnel system.


Beard N Bones

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2016, 11:40:10 AM »
I have a friend who works successfully for a jewelry MLM, and the subject of MLMs came up. I said, "But you make a decent profit from your jewelry parties, right?" And she shrugged and said she makes some money from that, but most of her money comes from signing other people up. And this lady sells a ton of jewelry. Her goal is to do 5 parties a week. She said that the real money from the parties comes from the fact that the product is attractive, so usually at least one person expresses an interest in signing up to sell.

I have another friend, we'll call her Tina, who sells memberships (?) to Melaleuca. She's constantly posting on Facebook about all her free swag, hosting free dinners for her downline, going on cruises, etc. She told me that she started selling it basically full-time when she lost her job and has never had to look for another job. But I spoke to a member of her downline, and that person told me that it's hardly worth selling it, because Tina had basically locked down our town. She told me that if she walks into a room and someone mentions Tina's name, then she knows she's wasting her time. No one on Tina's team will ever make as much as Tina, because Tina got here first.

I do tax returns for a few of these. Some of them are staggering losses. I did a supplement Schedule C this past year and the person had spent $6000 on supplements for her family, another $5000 on conferences and training materials, and she had $500 in income. She told me that she was just waiting for this supplement to catch on and then she'd be financially secure. I'm thinking, "Lady, I know a way you can make $10,500 a year doing nothing."

On the other hand, I did a Cabi lady's return once, and she sold Cabi part time and had a real full time job. She pulled in about $20,000, only $5000 of which was downline commissions. She said she just thinks it's fun to host clothing parties. I don't know how many a week she did.

Very very interesting!  "Staggering losses," is what I would expect to hear.  What surprises me the most in your post Cpa Cat, is that:  You have a friend who "works successfully for a jewelry MLM."  I assume "works successfully" means she is making money at doing it.  Can you verify that she truly is making money at it, or is that the story she is telling you?!  What I understand, is that even those in the highest levels of the MLM ladder (even top 3-5% of active "distributors/consultants/etc") are putting so much into their company (the "pay to play" aspect of these companies), that they are not making a net profit.  I'm so confident that those involved in MLM companies are making no net profit (other than the top 0.4-1.0%), that I will challenge anyone saying they make a profit in MLM companies:  "Show me the income tax returns."  Someone driving a Lexus or Mercedes Benz, or going on hot weather vacations or cruises aren't convincing me of the profitability of their MLM "business."

I'm going to poll Mustachian Accountants under the "Ask a Mustachian" page to give feedback via a poll on the profitability of MLMs.   I'm confident all will report "staggering losses."

EDIT:  The poll has been created at:  http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/poll-for-mustachian-accountants-info-for-the-rest-of-us/
I hope there are a large number of Accountants that are able to contribute to the poll.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 01:45:53 PM by Beard N Bones »

infogoon

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2016, 12:47:45 PM »


"As the brochure describes it, it is not a pyramid, it is a triangle. And it is not a scheme, Hank, it is an opportunity."

Smokystache

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2016, 01:01:08 PM »
Stealing this from reddit -

You ever have people on facebook titling themselves "CEO," writing posts about entrepreneurship and hustling and making money, because they do MLM?

Someone responded to this by saying: You can't just call yourself CEO, the MLM company has a real CEO.

Someone responded by saying: "It's CEOs all the way down!"

That's literally how it's sold. It's CEOs all the way down. You get to be a CEO of your own company. All you have to do in exchange is buy only our product, only from us, only for our rates - and also recruit some more CEOs.

And am I the only one who thinks it is ridiculous that sole proprietors and owners of  1-10 person businesses (inside and out of MLMs) call themselves "CEO -Chief Operating Officer?"

You're a one-man/one-woman shop -- who exactly are you "chiefing" over? When did the terms "Founder" or "Owner" become so 'weak' that everyone has to call themselves "Chief ____ Officer"?? And don't even get me started on "Chief Dreamer" and "Chief Disrupter."

Rant over. Return to your regular MLM programming. -- before I become Vomiter-in-Chief (VIC)

mm1970

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2016, 02:16:17 PM »
Quote
What I understand, is that even those in the highest levels of the MLM ladder (even top 3-5% of active "distributors/consultants/etc") are putting so much into their company (the "pay to play" aspect of these companies), that they are not making a net profit.

I think this is going to have to depend a lot on the company.  Not all companies require inventory or "pay to play".

Cpa Cat

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2016, 04:13:49 PM »
I have a friend who works successfully for a jewelry MLM, and the subject of MLMs came up. I said, "But you make a decent profit from your jewelry parties, right?" And she shrugged and said she makes some money from that, but most of her money comes from signing other people up. And this lady sells a ton of jewelry. Her goal is to do 5 parties a week. She said that the real money from the parties comes from the fact that the product is attractive, so usually at least one person expresses an interest in signing up to sell.

I have another friend, we'll call her Tina, who sells memberships (?) to Melaleuca. She's constantly posting on Facebook about all her free swag, hosting free dinners for her downline, going on cruises, etc. She told me that she started selling it basically full-time when she lost her job and has never had to look for another job. But I spoke to a member of her downline, and that person told me that it's hardly worth selling it, because Tina had basically locked down our town. She told me that if she walks into a room and someone mentions Tina's name, then she knows she's wasting her time. No one on Tina's team will ever make as much as Tina, because Tina got here first.

I do tax returns for a few of these. Some of them are staggering losses. I did a supplement Schedule C this past year and the person had spent $6000 on supplements for her family, another $5000 on conferences and training materials, and she had $500 in income. She told me that she was just waiting for this supplement to catch on and then she'd be financially secure. I'm thinking, "Lady, I know a way you can make $10,500 a year doing nothing."

On the other hand, I did a Cabi lady's return once, and she sold Cabi part time and had a real full time job. She pulled in about $20,000, only $5000 of which was downline commissions. She said she just thinks it's fun to host clothing parties. I don't know how many a week she did.

Very very interesting!  "Staggering losses," is what I would expect to hear.  What surprises me the most in your post Cpa Cat, is that:  You have a friend who "works successfully for a jewelry MLM."  I assume "works successfully" means she is making money at doing it.  Can you verify that she truly is making money at it, or is that the story she is telling you?!  What I understand, is that even those in the highest levels of the MLM ladder (even top 3-5% of active "distributors/consultants/etc") are putting so much into their company (the "pay to play" aspect of these companies), that they are not making a net profit.  I'm so confident that those involved in MLM companies are making no net profit (other than the top 0.4-1.0%), that I will challenge anyone saying they make a profit in MLM companies:  "Show me the income tax returns."  Someone driving a Lexus or Mercedes Benz, or going on hot weather vacations or cruises aren't convincing me of the profitability of their MLM "business."

I'm going to poll Mustachian Accountants under the "Ask a Mustachian" page to give feedback via a poll on the profitability of MLMs.   I'm confident all will report "staggering losses."

EDIT:  The poll has been created at:  http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/poll-for-mustachian-accountants-info-for-the-rest-of-us/
I hope there are a large number of Accountants that are able to contribute to the poll.

Hard to say! I only did the Gabi lady and the Supplement lady's returns. And technically, I don't know if Gabi Lady spent $20,000 on clothing - she didn't provide me with that info. It just so happened that she broke out commissions from her downline and sales of merchandise (or Gabi did - I can't remember which).

The Supplement Lady thought she could deduct her supplements,  so she included personal use items. It appeared to me that the Supplement Company's primary goal was to sell training seminars and conferences to its "sellers."

The other two, who appear successful - I don't know. I'm not their accountant. The Melaleuca one told me that she makes enough not to return to work. But her previous job was not particularly high paying. She gets a lot of swag, but it does feel a bit like the top performers at school fundraising who sold so much giftwrap that they got some prize. How much did our schools really make off that?

It is also the Jewelry Lady's only job, and she sells a lot of jewelry. But recently she mentioned that she's a top performer, and if she booked two more parties, she would get the whole current line of jewelry for free. It sounded a little odd to me - like I expected that she had it already.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2016, 05:03:32 PM »
I have a friend who works successfully for a jewelry MLM, and the subject of MLMs came up. I said, "But you make a decent profit from your jewelry parties, right?" And she shrugged and said she makes some money from that, but most of her money comes from signing other people up. And this lady sells a ton of jewelry. Her goal is to do 5 parties a week. She said that the real money from the parties comes from the fact that the product is attractive, so usually at least one person expresses an interest in signing up to sell.

I have another friend, we'll call her Tina, who sells memberships (?) to Melaleuca. She's constantly posting on Facebook about all her free swag, hosting free dinners for her downline, going on cruises, etc. She told me that she started selling it basically full-time when she lost her job and has never had to look for another job. But I spoke to a member of her downline, and that person told me that it's hardly worth selling it, because Tina had basically locked down our town. She told me that if she walks into a room and someone mentions Tina's name, then she knows she's wasting her time. No one on Tina's team will ever make as much as Tina, because Tina got here first.

I do tax returns for a few of these. Some of them are staggering losses. I did a supplement Schedule C this past year and the person had spent $6000 on supplements for her family, another $5000 on conferences and training materials, and she had $500 in income. She told me that she was just waiting for this supplement to catch on and then she'd be financially secure. I'm thinking, "Lady, I know a way you can make $10,500 a year doing nothing."

On the other hand, I did a Cabi lady's return once, and she sold Cabi part time and had a real full time job. She pulled in about $20,000, only $5000 of which was downline commissions. She said she just thinks it's fun to host clothing parties. I don't know how many a week she did.

Very very interesting!  "Staggering losses," is what I would expect to hear.  What surprises me the most in your post Cpa Cat, is that:  You have a friend who "works successfully for a jewelry MLM."  I assume "works successfully" means she is making money at doing it.  Can you verify that she truly is making money at it, or is that the story she is telling you?!  What I understand, is that even those in the highest levels of the MLM ladder (even top 3-5% of active "distributors/consultants/etc") are putting so much into their company (the "pay to play" aspect of these companies), that they are not making a net profit.  I'm so confident that those involved in MLM companies are making no net profit (other than the top 0.4-1.0%), that I will challenge anyone saying they make a profit in MLM companies:  "Show me the income tax returns."  Someone driving a Lexus or Mercedes Benz, or going on hot weather vacations or cruises aren't convincing me of the profitability of their MLM "business."

I'm going to poll Mustachian Accountants under the "Ask a Mustachian" page to give feedback via a poll on the profitability of MLMs.   I'm confident all will report "staggering losses."

EDIT:  The poll has been created at:  http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/poll-for-mustachian-accountants-info-for-the-rest-of-us/
I hope there are a large number of Accountants that are able to contribute to the poll.

Hard to say! I only did the Gabi lady and the Supplement lady's returns. And technically, I don't know if Gabi Lady spent $20,000 on clothing - she didn't provide me with that info. It just so happened that she broke out commissions from her downline and sales of merchandise (or Gabi did - I can't remember which).

The Supplement Lady thought she could deduct her supplements,  so she included personal use items. It appeared to me that the Supplement Company's primary goal was to sell training seminars and conferences to its "sellers."

The other two, who appear successful - I don't know. I'm not their accountant. The Melaleuca one told me that she makes enough not to return to work. But her previous job was not particularly high paying. She gets a lot of swag, but it does feel a bit like the top performers at school fundraising who sold so much giftwrap that they got some prize. How much did our schools really make off that?

It is also the Jewelry Lady's only job, and she sells a lot of jewelry. But recently she mentioned that she's a top performer, and if she booked two more parties, she would get the whole current line of jewelry for free. It sounded a little odd to me - like I expected that she had it already.

O' the jewelry: of course she did. She's most likely earned it several times over, and sold it at a profit. When a company like that gives out freebies to a sales rep, the smart ones use them as demos for customers who want to buy what they try. The more the salespeople have on hand, the more they can show, and the more they show, the more they sell on the spot. Even if they sell "their" personal units for slightly off the list price, they keep every cent except what's due to the tax man. Of course that trick only works for things that can be sold once handled. It's good for kitchen gadgets but bad for, say, essential oils.

O' the gift wrap: usually no more than 40% goes to the school when it's chocolate, candles, or similar crap, but higher volumes produce a bigger cut. A 50% split is rare. Long-time nonprofit fund raiser talking.

chemistk

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2016, 05:59:32 PM »
Just another experience with MLM:

A couple of years ago, my wife (we weren't actually married at the time) got introduced to one of many weight loss MLM's, Visalus. As with a lot of other MLM companies, the products they were selling were actually pretty good. Originally, she was just looking for a good tasting meal replacement program and really got into how Visalus tasted. She was recruited to sell after the woman who sold her the product starting telling how she herself had gone from losing her job to paying off debts by selling (she definitely made more money recruiting) the product - and that she was on her way to getting a paid-for BMW. So, my wife paid the $500 (!!!) fee to join, which included a big box full of product meant for sampling at parties. She ended up having one party before realizing (I helped talk her out of it) that it was just not worth it.

The worst parts of selling were that you had to participate in 3x weekly conference calls and group chats. You were required to buy a new sampler box every month (something like $150 per box), and you were encouraged to sign up as many people to sell as you could. In fact, it was more about recruiting than selling product. They made it sound good, but ultimately it was just a terrible situation to get into. At least we got to keep the product.

On the flip side, my wife's aunt has sold Cabi clothes for years and made good money doing so.

Travis

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2016, 11:45:51 AM »


O' the gift wrap: usually no more than 40% goes to the school when it's chocolate, candles, or similar crap, but higher volumes produce a bigger cut. A 50% split is rare. Long-time nonprofit fund raiser talking.

I've come to hate school fundraisers for this reason.  Lately I've just asked the school if I can write them a check after seeing how little the school can get.  I pity the army of students who take turns knocking on my door in the same two week period peddling magazines or giving me sob stories about international trips they can earn.  My wife spent her childhood selling Girl Scout Cookies so she'll take five minutes of their time and give them tips on public speaking and presentation before turning them down and sending them on their way.

runningthroughFIRE

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2016, 11:53:35 AM »
At the risk of someone taking a snap at my head, I'll chime in that I did the MLM bit for a while in college.  It was even one of the shadier ones (Vector/Cutco).  Started it because my main summer job kept me busy when all my friends were typically free, so I was getting bored and figured it'd be an interesting experience.  I enjoyed it overall.  I learned a lot about cutlery, some interesting marketing techniques, and applied psychology, plus my manager pretty much let me do my own thing and didn't pester me about quotas.  When I transferred to the campus office during school, the culture shifted to be more pushy, and they started requiring me to go to all these pointless meetings.  It got shady as hell, so I quit after I lined up a better job.  I broke even on sales (even after attending some of the fancy trips), and came out slightly ahead if you count the full set of fancy knives I won in contests.

As an accountant: I only helped a few of these people with their taxes, but the majority of people who tried selling couldn't hack it and probably had losses.  There were a good handful that made money though.  This is just going off of knowing the pay structure and exactly how much these people were selling.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2016, 12:14:16 PM »


O' the gift wrap: usually no more than 40% goes to the school when it's chocolate, candles, or similar crap, but higher volumes produce a bigger cut. A 50% split is rare. Long-time nonprofit fund raiser talking.

I've come to hate school fundraisers for this reason.  Lately I've just asked the school if I can write them a check after seeing how little the school can get.  I pity the army of students who take turns knocking on my door in the same two week period peddling magazines or giving me sob stories about international trips they can earn.  My wife spent her childhood selling Girl Scout Cookies so she'll take five minutes of their time and give them tips on public speaking and presentation before turning them down and sending them on their way.

Lately I've been getting door knocks from kids from a ritzy private school in a neighboring town who claim to be "working toward a scholarship" so that they can go on a trip.

What I've taken to saying is: "First, what you're working toward is not a scholarship because scholarships are given away to outstanding students and athletes to help them with college expenses, not to kids who want to go on a trip. If you think this is a scholarship then some part of your education isn't lining up. Second, if your parents can afford to send you to a private school, they can afford to send you on this trip. Finally, I support the schools in my neighborhood, but this isn't one of them."

It's just a kid, so no F-bombs.

But the last kid followed up by whipping out some kind of nonsense religious propaganda and saying: "Do you mind if I leave this here?"

I responded by saying "Yes actually, I do mind." Garbage collection isn't until Friday so I'm not a fan of taking other people's extra recycling.

justajane

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2016, 12:25:41 PM »
I've been pretty vocal on here about my hatred for MLMs. I've watched with fascination a particular acquaintance on Facebook and her Jamberry "career"

#ican'tbelievethisismyjob, #jamfamily, #makealife, #womeninbiz, #jamgirlboss,

And my all time personal favorite: #becauseofjamberry

I've noticed, however, that recently she's been posting some things for another MLM. Maybe the Jamberry well is running dry?

I think jumping from one MLM to another is probably common.

chesebert

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2016, 04:54:05 PM »
Everything you need to know: https://www.factsaboutherbalife.com/

Bill Ackman agrees with you :)

Granted, he has not done so well on his short position and loosing approximately $100 million a year justifying his rationale. Why do you think that is the case?

Frugal D

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2016, 06:51:10 PM »
Everything you need to know: https://www.factsaboutherbalife.com/

Bill Ackman agrees with you :)

Granted, he has not done so well on his short position and loosing approximately $100 million a year justifying his rationale. Why do you think that is the case?

I think it's very, very difficult for the FTC to prove a business is a pyramid scheme. I hope Ackman is one day proven right.

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2016, 07:19:07 AM »
I'm really happy to say I've never heard of some of the companies mentioned in this thread. Maybe because I'm not part of the "mom crowd"?

My SIL has been sucked into a few of these MLM/pyramid schemes lately. The most recent one she was quite excited about because it's going to be her ticket to weight loss. Uh-huh. At least she didn't outright ask me to buy anything. All I could say was "good luck."

slappy

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2016, 09:31:29 AM »
Beachbody sucked me in because they have great home workouts and health supplements that I have used to lose weight and get fit. I am officially a "Beachbody Coach", but only because I wanted the "coach discount" for a supplement I take that they sell called "Shakeology". It's basically a protein shake drink with a lot of herbs, vitamins, and minerals. It's expensive (about $115 for a 30 day supply), but I use it to replace one meal a day and partially pay for it by eliminating my alcohol purchasing.

I never had any intention of selling this stuff to anybody else, but they had me watch the coaching video conference when I officially joined and it is ridiculous. Their entire structure isn't based on selling videos and supplements. It's based on getting more Beachbody coaches. Everyone is a coach and nobody has any customers. The only sales they are getting are from other Beachbody coaches. Lots of desperate people are wasting hundreds of hours a month in the pointless pursuit of more coaches when they could be using that time to run a real side hustle and actually make money. For example, I make money teaching martial arts classes three days a week.

Seems like all of my wife's friends are coaches too.  Once of them even gave us an entire big bag of Shaekology for free to try to get her into it.  No chance.  We tried the stuff and decided our fresh smoothies were tastier and threw the whole thing out.

The "oldest" coach who got in early claims that she nets 8K / month from it.  That seems almost too good to be true but she does have all these other girls buying supplies and signing up people so I guess it's possible?

I have a problem with BB calling their people "coaches"  I know many who tried and failed at being a BB Coach.  At the same time I know 2 people (husband and wife team) who seem to be doing very well as BB Coaches.  They were already very fitness oriented before signing up.  They do a lot of other things than just BB videos, she runs ultra marathons and he has a personal trainer certification.

I do have to say I love the workout videos and own several (bought on either Ebay or Craigslist for less).  I used to buy Shakeology but didn't drink it enough and ended up throwing out 4 expired bags because my OB told me to not drink it while pregnant.

My chiropractor became a Beach Body coach while pregnant, and it really made me uncomfortable. First, I didn't feel it was appropriate for her to be marketing products to her patients. I am also unsure about the ingredients in Shakeology and pregnancy. My OB ok'd Vega One, which doesn't taste that great, but I've found a couple ways to deal with it. My chiropractor also sells Essential Oils and Arbonne. I haven't been to her in months, and I'm really considering switching chiros.

Does anyone know how much the discount is for Beach Body coaches? I've seen people selling the Shakeology on local yard sale sites lately, and it made me a little curious.

Beard N Bones

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2016, 10:53:53 AM »

My chiropractor became a Beach Body coach while pregnant, and it really made me uncomfortable. First, I didn't feel it was appropriate for her to be marketing products to her patients. I am also unsure about the ingredients in Shakeology and pregnancy. My OB ok'd Vega One, which doesn't taste that great, but I've found a couple ways to deal with it. My chiropractor also sells Essential Oils and Arbonne. I haven't been to her in months, and I'm really considering switching chiros.

Does anyone know how much the discount is for Beach Body coaches? I've seen people selling the Shakeology on local yard sale sites lately, and it made me a little curious.

No question, I would find another chiropractor
There is a doctor/patient relationship dynamic that needs to be withheld.  If the chiropractor's "power"/influence found in the doctor/patient relationship is used for dishonest gain (in this case, the position of being a chiro to push product on patients for their monetary gain), that is at minimum, unethical.

I looked up Team BeachBody's Compensation plan.  It looks like Coach's get a 25% discount on Beach Body product and up to $30 off on Shakeology product/month.  Note that it costs $15.95/month to hold onto the title of Coach.  Yep, once again a person needs to "pay-to-play."  Because the profit off of sales of product is 35% (or less) with Beach Body, the monetary incentive won't be with product sales, but recruiting a "downline."  Once again, looks like a pyramid scheme to me.

frugalnacho

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2016, 08:30:14 AM »

My chiropractor became a Beach Body coach while pregnant, and it really made me uncomfortable. First, I didn't feel it was appropriate for her to be marketing products to her patients. I am also unsure about the ingredients in Shakeology and pregnancy. My OB ok'd Vega One, which doesn't taste that great, but I've found a couple ways to deal with it. My chiropractor also sells Essential Oils and Arbonne. I haven't been to her in months, and I'm really considering switching chiros.

Does anyone know how much the discount is for Beach Body coaches? I've seen people selling the Shakeology on local yard sale sites lately, and it made me a little curious.

No question, I would find another chiropractor
There is a doctor/patient relationship dynamic that needs to be withheld.  If the chiropractor's "power"/influence found in the doctor/patient relationship is used for dishonest gain (in this case, the position of being a chiro to push product on patients for their monetary gain), that is at minimum, unethical.

I looked up Team BeachBody's Compensation plan.  It looks like Coach's get a 25% discount on Beach Body product and up to $30 off on Shakeology product/month.  Note that it costs $15.95/month to hold onto the title of Coach.  Yep, once again a person needs to "pay-to-play."  Because the profit off of sales of product is 35% (or less) with Beach Body, the monetary incentive won't be with product sales, but recruiting a "downline."  Once again, looks like a pyramid scheme to me.

I would go a step further and recommend you ditch chiropractic care altogether and see a real dr. 

Making Cookies

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2016, 08:51:04 AM »


O' the gift wrap: usually no more than 40% goes to the school when it's chocolate, candles, or similar crap, but higher volumes produce a bigger cut. A 50% split is rare. Long-time nonprofit fund raiser talking.

I've come to hate school fundraisers for this reason.  Lately I've just asked the school if I can write them a check after seeing how little the school can get.  I pity the army of students who take turns knocking on my door in the same two week period peddling magazines or giving me sob stories about international trips they can earn.  My wife spent her childhood selling Girl Scout Cookies so she'll take five minutes of their time and give them tips on public speaking and presentation before turning them down and sending them on their way.

THIS!!!

That was a tough subject to get past with our kids who were eager to get out there and earn those prizes. They wanted the prize and the classroom celebrity.

My neighbors don't need that kind of "pressure" to buy those widgets or subscriptions. And our kids don't need the trinkets.

Way back in 5th grade I was a magazine subscription selling machine. Lived in a semi-rural area and rode my bike for miles. Earned a 126-Instamatic camera for all my hard work. Damn thing never took a good picture even once. We had those cameras in the family and they did okay. Not mine. I was pretty cranky about that.

I write a check to the school and tell our kids that if they want to earn a particular trinket (prize) then we'll work out a couple chores they can do to earn it. Most of it is dollar store level merchandise anyhow.

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2016, 09:01:02 AM »
The chiropractor I went to appeared to also be a Juice Plus representative, or at least she advertised it in her office. I didn't really care for that.

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2016, 09:58:43 AM »
Many chiros are snake oil salesmen and many are  hooked into some kind  of miracle cure/MLM sales.

Our very very successful cousin from Switzerland came to the U.S. to attend
Chiropractic school and then developed his sales busness until he got out  of patient care and now teaches the oil salesmen how to sell the snake:

http://www.practicewealth.com

And I love  his advice about plantar fasiatis. There is not one iota of medical info in his piece

http://www.footpainmarketing.com

Our friend had vertebrae and spine probelms and finally nded up gong ro a "different " chriromthan her regulae one. i was morwssend when he looked at her xray and rold her he wasnt going to,touch her, her spine was too screwed up and she needed an orthepod.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 08:18:41 PM by iris lily »

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2016, 10:11:16 AM »
That foot pain website just LOOKS shady. When I land on a website like that I quickly move on.

Travis

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2016, 10:22:01 AM »
Many chiros are snake oil salesmen and many are  hooked into some kind  of miracle cure/MLM sales.

Our very very successful cousin from Switzerland came to the U.S. to attend
Chiropractic school and then developed his sales busness until he got out  of patient care and now teaches the oil salesmen how to sell the snake:

http://www.practicewealth.com

And I love  his advice about plantar fasiatis. There is not one iota of medical info in his piece:

http://www.footpainmarketing.com/

There are definitely some whackos out there who traded in their status as a medical official for supplement/homeopathy/other weird non-scientific endorsement deals.  I saw a chiropractor a couple years ago while I was doing physical therapy on my neck.  I was pleasantly shocked when he admitted "[the adjustment he gave me] will make you feel better for a couple days, but it won't cure you."

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #73 on: June 24, 2016, 11:03:29 AM »
Many chiros are snake oil salesmen and many are  hooked into some kind  of miracle cure/MLM sales.

Our very very successful cousin from Switzerland came to the U.S. to attend
Chiropractic school and then developed his sales busness until he got out  of patient care and now teaches the oil salesmen how to sell the snake:

http://www.practicewealth.com

And I love  his advice about plantar fasiatis. There is not one iota of medical info in his piece:

http://www.footpainmarketing.com/

There are definitely some whackos out there who traded in their status as a medical official for supplement/homeopathy/other weird non-scientific endorsement deals.  I saw a chiropractor a couple years ago while I was doing physical therapy on my neck.  I was pleasantly shocked when he admitted "[the adjustment he gave me] will make you feel better for a couple days, but it won't cure you."

I thought that was their whole schtick? It won't cure you, so you have to keep coming back for regular appointments.

Travis

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #74 on: June 24, 2016, 11:07:58 AM »
Many chiros are snake oil salesmen and many are  hooked into some kind  of miracle cure/MLM sales.

Our very very successful cousin from Switzerland came to the U.S. to attend
Chiropractic school and then developed his sales busness until he got out  of patient care and now teaches the oil salesmen how to sell the snake:

http://www.practicewealth.com

And I love  his advice about plantar fasiatis. There is not one iota of medical info in his piece:

http://www.footpainmarketing.com/

There are definitely some whackos out there who traded in their status as a medical official for supplement/homeopathy/other weird non-scientific endorsement deals.  I saw a chiropractor a couple years ago while I was doing physical therapy on my neck.  I was pleasantly shocked when he admitted "[the adjustment he gave me] will make you feel better for a couple days, but it won't cure you."

I thought that was their whole schtick? It won't cure you, so you have to keep coming back for regular appointments.

I've run into quite a number of chiropractor advertisements where they claim to cure your pains (after multiple visits), cure your cancer, your dietary issues, etc.  The guy I visited basically said "this isn't really going to help, but we'll see if it takes the edge off."  I only visited him a few times, and my physical therapy did more good anyways.  I know some folks who think they need to go to a chiropractor every single month indefinitely and that is their treatment plan.

AlwaysLearningToSave

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2016, 11:38:26 AM »
The guy I visited basically said "this isn't really going to help, but we'll see if it takes the edge off."  I only visited him a few times, and my physical therapy did more good anyways. 

I think this is the way to use a chiropractor-- in conjunction with physical therapy.  If you've ever been "cracked" by one you know what a significant, immediate relief it can be.  But without more your body will just want to revert to its old alignment over time.  Physical therapy will help hold your body in proper alignment so the chiropractic adjustment is no longer needed.  The initial chiropractic adjustments help can help speed up the physical therapy process by putting your body into proper alignment. 

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2016, 11:58:41 AM »
The guy I visited basically said "this isn't really going to help, but we'll see if it takes the edge off."  I only visited him a few times, and my physical therapy did more good anyways. 

I think this is the way to use a chiropractor-- in conjunction with physical therapy.  If you've ever been "cracked" by one you know what a significant, immediate relief it can be.  But without more your body will just want to revert to its old alignment over time.  Physical therapy will help hold your body in proper alignment so the chiropractic adjustment is no longer needed.  The initial chiropractic adjustments help can help speed up the physical therapy process by putting your body into proper alignment.
I thought a good chiropractor was essentially a physical therapist who specializes in spines and backs?  The only chiropractor I've had experience with showed you exercises on strengthening your muscles and improving your posture long-term as well as short-term pain relief.

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2016, 12:07:32 PM »
Many chiros are snake oil salesmen and many are  hooked into some kind  of miracle cure/MLM sales.

Our very very successful cousin from Switzerland came to the U.S. to attend
Chiropractic school and then developed his sales busness until he got out  of patient care and now teaches the oil salesmen how to sell the snake:

http://www.practicewealth.com

And I love  his advice about plantar fasiatis. There is not one iota of medical info in his piece:

http://www.footpainmarketing.com/

There are definitely some whackos out there who traded in their status as a medical official for supplement/homeopathy/other weird non-scientific endorsement deals.  I saw a chiropractor a couple years ago while I was doing physical therapy on my neck.  I was pleasantly shocked when he admitted "[the adjustment he gave me] will make you feel better for a couple days, but it won't cure you."

When I lived in Alberta 20 years ago, chiropractic was a kind of medicine considered to be on par with physiotherapy. Doctors would routinely refer patients for treatments, which were covered under the public health plan. However, there were some radical differences in how chiropractic was practiced and marketed.

First, the chiropractors freely admitted that the goal, and the only goal, of the treatment was to relieve pain temporarily by briefly manipulating joints slighty beyond their normal range of motion, so as to force fluid out of the joint (which creates the pop). This process would stop the negative feedback loop wherein muscle tension caused pain, which in turn caused more tension. If there was an underlying cause to the pain, they admitted that nothing they did would address the cause, and were very generous in their referrals to spinal specialists or physiotherapists. If the pain was caused by bad posture, for example, the treatment would do nothing to change the habit. Chiropractors were completely frank about this fact.

Second, the chiropractors did not attempt to diagnose injury or illness. If they saw symptoms consistent with, say, a ruptured disc or spinal stenosis, they were generous in their referrals to people qualified to treat such problems. There was no mention of this "subluxation" bunkum and no pretense that the bones of the spine had somehow become misaligned or dislocated. Nor were there extra-billed tests such as X-rays, because frankly the kind of subluxation they purport to treat cannot be diagnosed by X-ray (because it doesn't exist... for a normal person if your spinal bones were suddenly out of alignment you'd need a spinal surgeon and you'd most likely be paralyzed.)

Third, the benefits of chiropractic were not exaggerated the way I see them exaggerated in the States. People didn't claim to be able to cure diabetes, epilepsy, blindness, migraines, allergies, or immune disorders through chiropractic.

Fourth, there was no attempt to sell chiropractic as a maintenance therapy such that people were encouraged to come in for regular spinal manipulations for health. It was not marketed as appropriate for children or infants without a doctor's referral.

Fifth, there was no overt advertising of the chiropractic, nor was the practice used to advertise other products or services although it was permissible for different kinds of specialists to exchange business cards to go along with the referrals given.

How exactly did the industry achieve such a level of professionalism? Well, there was a list of authorized treatments eligible for reimbursement out of the provincial health plan funds. The only kind of treatments authorized for payment were joint manipulations for temporary relief of pain. "Subluxation" treatments and other happy nonsense weren't covered, and neither was snake oil.

Basically the province said: "we're only paying for medical treatments that have been proven and verified by the medical community. If you want to sell supplements, homeopathy, tin-foil hats or other kinds of unproven pseudoscience, go for it. But we're not paying for it out of the public purse, you may not combine the two practices if you expect to keep your license. So pick one. Oh, and by the way, if you have a medical credential and maintain a licensed medical practice on paper but use it to sell snake oil instead, and the snake oil harms someone, expect to be charged with a criminal offense because you're held to a higher standard due to your education and knowledge. Meanwhile, we support your malpractice insurance carrier's right to exclude snake oil related expenses from your coverage."

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #78 on: June 24, 2016, 12:20:25 PM »

I've run into quite a number of chiropractor advertisements where they claim to cure your pains (after multiple visits), cure your cancer, your dietary issues, etc.  The guy I visited basically said "this isn't really going to help, but we'll see if it takes the edge off."  I only visited him a few times, and my physical therapy did more good anyways.  I know some folks who think they need to go to a chiropractor every single month indefinitely and that is their treatment plan.

In my area, according to advertisements, the chiropractors can cure diabetes, repair your ailing thyroid gland, give you back your beach body you had in your 20s, and solve your depression and anxiety. I view them as predators who prey on people who are desperate to feel better because they've generally been failed by the medical establishment.

slappy

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2016, 01:09:13 PM »

I've run into quite a number of chiropractor advertisements where they claim to cure your pains (after multiple visits), cure your cancer, your dietary issues, etc.  The guy I visited basically said "this isn't really going to help, but we'll see if it takes the edge off."  I only visited him a few times, and my physical therapy did more good anyways.  I know some folks who think they need to go to a chiropractor every single month indefinitely and that is their treatment plan.

In my area, according to advertisements, the chiropractors can cure diabetes, repair your ailing thyroid gland, give you back your beach body you had in your 20s, and solve your depression and anxiety. I view them as predators who prey on people who are desperate to feel better because they've generally been failed by the medical establishment.

My brother in law quit going to the chiro and starting going for massage instead. He said it cost about the same and he got more relief from the massage.

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Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #80 on: June 24, 2016, 01:24:37 PM »
Sounds like there are some shady chiros out there. I have a great one. When I started seeing him I could barely walk/stand/sit for any length of time without pain. Doctors told me I could get on drugs or live with it. I now see him about 2-3 times a year and am otherwise pain free. At my first visit he said, "if I do my job right, you won't be a regular patient of mine for more than a year or so." The real reason I still see him at this point is because of a recent car accident that aggravated it again. I wouldnt write off the whole profession but my coworker definitely got a wacko who just tried to sell him a "lifestyle" of seeing him every week.

justajane

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #81 on: June 24, 2016, 01:32:33 PM »
I went to the chiropractor because I was desperate for my breech baby to turn. I had already met my deductible, so the visits were like $10 a piece. I figured, what's there to lose other than like $50? She did some things to supposedly make it easier for the baby to turn, as well as lit some random stuff on fire to burn between my toes.

The baby did turn, though I have no idea if it was the chiropractor. Probably not. I said something to my OB when he was doing the ultrasound to see if my son had turned: "The chiropractor is gonna try to take credit for this and add this to her positive statistics on how many babies she has successfully turned." And he was like "She can take credit if she likes. All I care is that the baby's in the right position now."

What I did notice after my first appointment is that my pain during walking was significantly less and for the first time in all three of my pregnancies, I could lean down and pick something up in front of me without significant pain. It was very noticeable, so whatever she did on that front really helped. I imagine it was an alignment issue.

slappy

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #82 on: June 24, 2016, 01:33:22 PM »
Sounds like there are some shady chiros out there. I have a great one. When I started seeing him I could barely walk/stand/sit for any length of time without pain. Doctors told me I could get on drugs or live with it. I now see him about 2-3 times a year and am otherwise pain free. At my first visit he said, "if I do my job right, you won't be a regular patient of mine for more than a year or so." The real reason I still see him at this point is because of a recent car accident that aggravated it again. I wouldnt write off the whole profession but my coworker definitely got a wacko who just tried to sell him a "lifestyle" of seeing him every week.

My chiro did that.  And charged me for the whole "treatment plan" up front.  One of the several reasons that I am switching.

rockstache

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #83 on: June 24, 2016, 01:37:05 PM »
Yikes no! I just pay the co pay when I go.

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #84 on: June 24, 2016, 01:41:32 PM »
I would go a step further and recommend you ditch chiropractic care altogether and see a real dr.

As someone who has a family physician (MD), 2 chiropractors, a pharmacist, a neonatal intensive care (NIC) registered nurse (currently doing further education to become a nurse practitioner) in my immediate family, I find this comment troll-ish and unnecessary.  Chiropractors are certainly real doctors (as much as MD's, specialists, dentists and optometrists are.)

Sounds like a new thread needs to be started called something like "Mustachian Health Care", where people can celebrate/vent about health care successes/failures.  This thread is getting hijacked!

slappy

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #85 on: June 24, 2016, 01:55:22 PM »
I would go a step further and recommend you ditch chiropractic care altogether and see a real dr.

As someone who has a family physician (MD), 2 chiropractors, a pharmacist, a neonatal intensive care (NIC) registered nurse (currently doing further education to become a nurse practitioner) in my immediate family, I find this comment troll-ish and unnecessary.  Chiropractors are certainly real doctors (as much as MD's, specialists, dentists and optometrists are.)

Sounds like a new thread needs to be started called something like "Mustachian Health Care", where people can celebrate/vent about health care successes/failures.  This thread is getting hijacked!

That's why I ignored that comment. ;) Although it appears that people find chiropractors to be one the same level as MLM, which I'm sure some are, but certainly not all or even most. I have a very good friend attending Chiropractic school right now in Atlanta and appears to be studying pretty hard. I can't wait for her to be my chiropractor!

frugalnacho

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #86 on: June 24, 2016, 02:59:57 PM »
I would go a step further and recommend you ditch chiropractic care altogether and see a real dr.

As someone who has a family physician (MD), 2 chiropractors, a pharmacist, a neonatal intensive care (NIC) registered nurse (currently doing further education to become a nurse practitioner) in my immediate family, I find this comment troll-ish and unnecessary.  Chiropractors are certainly real doctors (as much as MD's, specialists, dentists and optometrists are.)

Sounds like a new thread needs to be started called something like "Mustachian Health Care", where people can celebrate/vent about health care successes/failures.  This thread is getting hijacked!

That's why I ignored that comment. ;) Although it appears that people find chiropractors to be one the same level as MLM, which I'm sure some are, but certainly not all or even most. I have a very good friend attending Chiropractic school right now in Atlanta and appears to be studying pretty hard. I can't wait for her to be my chiropractor!

My experience has been that they are more jokes than real doctors and they promote homeopathy, magnets, and all kinds of other ineffective treatments.   I've never visited one, but I know plenty of people that have and swear by them.  When probed, without fail, they all turn out to be holistic quacks.  Perhaps there are legit medical reasons to use a chiropractor, and perhaps there are some honest non quack chiropractors, but I don't know of any.  I instantly dismiss advice and anecdotes about chiropractors from people in my real life just as I would if they said they visited a witch doctor.

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #87 on: June 24, 2016, 03:25:19 PM »
I never had any intention of selling this stuff to anybody else, but they had me watch the coaching video conference when I officially joined and it is ridiculous. Their entire structure isn't based on selling videos and supplements. It's based on getting more Beachbody coaches. Everyone is a coach and nobody has any customers. The only sales they are getting are from other Beachbody coaches. Lots of desperate people are wasting hundreds of hours a month in the pointless pursuit of more coaches when they could be using that time to run a real side hustle and actually make money. For example, I make money teaching martial arts classes three days a week.

This sums up MLMs right here. The business model is a true pyramid scheme when the point is to get more members to join and pay the annual fee, buy the introductory package of crap, etc.rather than find more customers to actually purchase the product or service.

woopwoop

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #88 on: June 24, 2016, 04:56:05 PM »
My experience has been that they are more jokes than real doctors and they promote homeopathy, magnets, and all kinds of other ineffective treatments.
My favorite chiro story was the chiropractor who started an Ask/Tell thread on another forum I visit and was upset at being questioned about the woo woo aspects like subluxation or whatever nonsense. Someone posted a thread of a spine and asked him what he thought the issue was. He replied seriously and in great detail about how chiro would help the person. Then the person who posted the pic revealed that it was an Xray of his cat's spine from a vet visit.

I'm sure there are excellent chiros out there (who would also make great physical therapists) but they are in no way qualified as real doctors by doing whatever certification process they do.  And they do tend to promote tons of MLM stuff in their offices. My mom made me go when I was a kid unfortunately.

rockstache

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #89 on: June 24, 2016, 05:08:58 PM »
My experience has been that they are more jokes than real doctors and they promote homeopathy, magnets, and all kinds of other ineffective treatments.
My favorite chiro story was the chiropractor who started an Ask/Tell thread on another forum I visit and was upset at being questioned about the woo woo aspects like subluxation or whatever nonsense. Someone posted a thread of a spine and asked him what he thought the issue was. He replied seriously and in great detail about how chiro would help the person. Then the person who posted the pic revealed that it was an Xray of his cat's spine from a vet visit.

I'm sure there are excellent chiros out there (who would also make great physical therapists) but they are in no way qualified as real doctors by doing whatever certification process they do.  And they do tend to promote tons of MLM stuff in their offices. My mom made me go when I was a kid unfortunately.

Wait...people go to chiropractors who are not medical doctors? Ok then yes, that is just crazy. Idk about chiropractic 'certifications.' My chiropractor has a medical degree, I believe it is in neurology (although I don't know all the letters). Sorry for your bad experience, I certainly don't blame you for being skittish.

woopwoop

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #90 on: June 24, 2016, 06:06:33 PM »
Wait...people go to chiropractors who are not medical doctors? Ok then yes, that is just crazy. Idk about chiropractic 'certifications.' My chiropractor has a medical degree, I believe it is in neurology (although I don't know all the letters).
I mean, the whole history of chiropractic is based on really antiscientific and pseudoscientific claims, and "Doctor of Chiropractic" isn't the same as an MD at all - you can get into a chiropractic school without a bachelor's degree, even, and they have much laxer requirements than most med schools. I'm glad that lots of chiros seem to provide benefits to their clients, but it's hard to buy into a supposed medical field that has a history of being anti-vaccine, anti-fluoridation of water, pro-homeopathy, etc. There are definitely some chiros trying to clean up the field, but there are also a ton of quacks out there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #91 on: June 24, 2016, 06:52:45 PM »
I would go a step further and recommend you ditch chiropractic care altogether and see a real dr.

As someone who has a family physician (MD), 2 chiropractors, a pharmacist, a neonatal intensive care (NIC) registered nurse (currently doing further education to become a nurse practitioner) in my immediate family, I find this comment troll-ish and unnecessary.  Chiropractors are certainly real doctors (as much as MD's, specialists, dentists and optometrists are.)

Sounds like a new thread needs to be started called something like "Mustachian Health Care", where people can celebrate/vent about health care successes/failures.  This thread is getting hijacked!

That's why I ignored that comment. ;) Although it appears that people find chiropractors to be one the same level as MLM, which I'm sure some are, but certainly not all or even most. I have a very good friend attending Chiropractic school right now in Atlanta and appears to be studying pretty hard. I can't wait for her to be my chiropractor!

Much depends on where the person is practicing. If your friend wants to be respected as a well trusted medical professional, and to enjoy the credibility her hard work should earn her, she'll be best off practicing in a country and province that pays for actual medicine and not woo-woo stuff, and where the laws do not favor promotion of MLM or other pseudoscience by medical professionals.

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #92 on: June 24, 2016, 07:23:22 PM »
Thanks for all the anti-chiropractic stuff in this thread. I can't convince my wife or my friends that chiro is quackery. No matter how many informative articles I share with them. People just enjoy being bamboozled, I guess.


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iris lily

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #93 on: June 24, 2016, 08:10:00 PM »
I would go a step further and recommend you ditch chiropractic care altogether and see a real dr.

As someone who has a family physician (MD), 2 chiropractors, a pharmacist, a neonatal intensive care (NIC) registered nurse (currently doing further education to become a nurse practitioner) in my immediate family, I find this comment troll-ish and unnecessary.  Chiropractors are certainly real doctors (as much as MD's, specialists, dentists and optometrists are.)

Sounds like a new thread needs to be started called something like "Mustachian Health Care", where people can celebrate/vent about health care successes/failures.  This thread is getting hijacked!
Do you think the PP above was helped by the random stuff that was burned between her toes? Is that "real" medicine?

Fortunately I dont have back problems. If
I had a persistant issue and my physician would only throw drugs at it, I might  (notice I said might) try a chiro. But more likely I would find a new physician who would send me to a Physical therapist to work with me on appropriate exercises to strengthen whatever to address the problem.

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #94 on: June 24, 2016, 08:13:47 PM »
Thanks for all the anti-chiropractic stuff in this thread. I can't convince my wife or my friends that chiro is quackery. No matter how many informative articles I share with them. People just enjoy being bamboozled, I guess.

Chiropractic is not quackery.
No question there are those that are unscrupulous in the profession. I would argue the North American Medical system/Big Pharma (ie. See Thalidomide) is more unscrupulous. Big Pharma's interest is for its shareholder's profits, not the health of the individual - an ultimate conflict of interest in my opinion.  And absolutely, in the distant history, Chiropractic has been less than evidence-based as we now currently know it.  That said...

 Moneycat, I could give you two high quality current up to date research papers for every one of your "informative" articles you have, that support the use of chiropractic care for many neuromusculoskeletal conditions.

Beard N Bones

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #95 on: June 24, 2016, 09:12:25 PM »
I would go a step further and recommend you ditch chiropractic care altogether and see a real dr.

As someone who has a family physician (MD), 2 chiropractors, a pharmacist, a neonatal intensive care (NIC) registered nurse (currently doing further education to become a nurse practitioner) in my immediate family, I find this comment troll-ish and unnecessary.  Chiropractors are certainly real doctors (as much as MD's, specialists, dentists and optometrists are.)

Sounds like a new thread needs to be started called something like "Mustachian Health Care", where people can celebrate/vent about health care successes/failures.  This thread is getting hijacked!
Do you think the PP above was helped by the random stuff that was burned between her toes? Is that "real" medicine?

Fortunately I dont have back problems. If
I had a persistant issue and my physician would only throw drugs at it, I might  (notice I said might) try a chiro. But more likely I would find a new physician who would send me to a Physical therapist to work with me on appropriate exercises to strengthen whatever to address the problem.

In Canada, chiropractic is a regulated profession (just as TheGrimSqueaker was talking about).  In the province we live, the scope of practice of the chiropractor is set out by its regulatory board.  The chiropractors scope of practice in our province, pretty much identical to the rest of the country is as follows:

SCOPE OF PRACTICE
The  role  of  chiropractic  in  primary  health  care  is  characterized  by  direct  access,  integrated, conservative  care  of  patients'  health  needs, emphasizing  neuromusculoskeletal  conditions, health  promotion,  and patient  centered diagnosis  and  management.  The  chiropractor  in  the primary health care system is a first-contact practitioner for neuromusculoskeletal conditions. The principles outlined below are intended to better serve the health needs of the public. They also  provide   policy  makers,  other  health  care   professionals  and  the  public  with  a  clear understanding  of  chiropractic.  These  principles  are  also  intended  to  provide  a  focal  point  to which  members  of  the  profession  can  gravitate  and  will  allow  the  profession  to  pursue  its legitimate aspirations for growth and development.

1.  Chiropractors are first
- contact practitioners who possess and exercise the diagnostic skills to differentiate conditions that are amenable to their management from those conditions that require referral or co-management.
2.  Chiropractors   provide   conservative   management   of   neuromusculoskeletal   disorders including, but not limited to back, neck, head and extremity pain.
3. Chiropractors are expert providers of spinal and other therapeutic manipulation/adjustments/ mobilization.  They  may  utilize  a  variety  of  supportive  and  complementary  therapeutic  modalities. Chiropractors   also   provide   patient   evaluation   and   instructions   regarding   disease prevention   and   health   promotion   through   proper   nutrition,   exercise   and   lifestyle modification.  The  range  of  diagnostic  and  therapeutic  services  offered  by  chiropractic  is dynamic  and  will  be  modified  by  education,  research,  technological  change  and  society's evolving health care needs.
4.   Chiropractic diagnostic and therapeutic goals should be achieved as safely, quickly and economically as possible to promote patient health and independence. Optimal patient care can be achieved when chiropractic is integrated within the health care system. Interdisciplinary collaboration is important for this purpose.
5.  The diagnostic and therapeutic guidelines adopted by the profession should be evidence-based, the absence or ambiguity of scientific evidence requires sound clinical judgment in place of hard data.
6.  Chiropractors offer accessible and appropriate care to all population groups.
7.  Chiropractors  recognize  the  multi-faceted  aspects  of  health,  disease,  etiology  and  related patient care.


iris lily, based on that Scope of Practice for chiropractors in my province, it should be very clear regarding my view on burning stuff between toes to help with a neuromusculoskeletal issue.  Because of my unique position with so many medical professionals in my family, I would make the recommendation to anyone that reads this, that if any medical professional (and yes, my fellow chiropractic haters, that does include chiropractors) is not practicing ethically or professionally, or in their scope of practice, they should be reported to the appropriate regulatory boards.  Regulatory boards are there to protect the public from the unethical, unscrupulous and dangerous individuals that are found in all professions. 

Now you asked if
Quote
the PP above was helped by the random stuff that was burned between her toes? Is that "real" medicine?
  I don't have the answer for you.  Was it: the random burning stuff between the toes?  ...was it the fact that "the Webser's Technique" was used to help in the relaxing of the uterus and sportive tissues? (the Websters Technique is worth researching)  ...the adjustments on the back?  ...the stress of seeing a chiropractor?  ...the stress of having to use unbudgeted monies to pay for chiropractors fees?  ..the fact that the barometric pressure spiked multiple times in the days prior to the baby turning?  ...the fact that the Super Bowl was won by the Patriots that year, the most hated team in the NFL?  That's right, it is impossible to know because of all the variables involved.  I, as a skeptical person, am right there with you.

What a person can't be skeptical about though, is the absolute undeniable fact, that the baby turned and was in the vertex position afterwards.  Furthermore, the back pain she had was significantly improved after seeing her chiropractor. 

(I am finding it increasingly ironic that, in a thread I've started regarding the unscrupulous business model known as MLM, it has deteriorated into a "chiropractors are all quakes and sleazy" type discussion, considering I am very much on the inside of the health care field itself.)

rockstache

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #96 on: June 25, 2016, 06:25:09 AM »
Wait...people go to chiropractors who are not medical doctors? Ok then yes, that is just crazy. Idk about chiropractic 'certifications.' My chiropractor has a medical degree, I believe it is in neurology (although I don't know all the letters).
I mean, the whole history of chiropractic is based on really antiscientific and pseudoscientific claims, and "Doctor of Chiropractic" isn't the same as an MD at all - you can get into a chiropractic school without a bachelor's degree, even, and they have much laxer requirements than most med schools. I'm glad that lots of chiros seem to provide benefits to their clients, but it's hard to buy into a supposed medical field that has a history of being anti-vaccine, anti-fluoridation of water, pro-homeopathy, etc. There are definitely some chiros trying to clean up the field, but there are also a ton of quacks out there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism
Uh...no. I mean real MD. He went to med school, did residency, everything. I don't know what kind of quacks might be out there, I'm just talking about this one guy. I wouldn't go to one that wasn't an actual doctor.

justajane

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #97 on: June 25, 2016, 07:20:53 AM »
I didn't intend for the comment I made about "burning things between my toes" to be taken as a way to besmirch all chiropractors. In fact, my chiropractor was a trained acupuncturist as well, and what I described was Moxibustion, an ancient Chinese practice, used to turn breech babies and deal with menstrual cramps for centuries. Call it quackery if you want, but it had nothing to do with her chiropractic training.

And, yes, the main thing she did was the Webster Technique that balances your pelvis.

While I certainly understand some people's hesitancy in terms of chiropractic medicine, the reality is that traditional medicine hasn't always been able to provide non-invasive relief from lower back pain that doesn't include lots of narcotics, nerve blocks, etc. That's one area in which I would personally use a chiropractor again in the future. All the other claims are quackery IMO, but for back pain, I think they have some legitimate methods that do provide relief. 

justajane

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #98 on: June 25, 2016, 07:33:06 AM »
Fortunately I dont have back problems. If
I had a persistant issue and my physician would only throw drugs at it, I might  (notice I said might) try a chiro. But more likely I would find a new physician who would send me to a Physical therapist to work with me on appropriate exercises to strengthen whatever to address the problem.

Yes, physical therapy is where it's at. I have a PT that I trust more than I trust many doctors (in fact, since you live in STL, if you are ever unfortunate enough to need one, PM me, my PT is so wonderful, I can't sing her praises enough).

When I had a hip problem this past year, I didn't go to the chiropractor. I went the traditional route of an Orthopedist who gave me a 2K MRI which found nothing. Her proposed path forward if PT didn't work was to give me these invasive hormone injections in the hip. Thankfully it went away with the help of my awesome physical therapist who, I might add, doesn't have a medical degree.

Why this insistence on people who work on your joints and ligaments have a medical degree? If those of you who are all up in arms about chiropractors really feel that way, you shouldn't go to a physical therapist either. The only difference I would see is that they at least try to have PTs under the guidance of your doctor through the "referral" system. But in my mind that's just a health insurance leap you go through and not really collaboration. The reality is that most medical doctors in the US don't have the time in their schedule to spend the time that a chiropractor or a physical therapy does with the patient. My PT spent usually over 30 minutes with me, sometimes a whole hour.

Perhaps this whole thing would be helped if the system would do a better job embracing certain aspects of chiropractic care and creating a similar referral system with certain vetted offices. Yes, they would have to disavow themselves of much of the woo, but if the medical establishment would grant some of their efficacy, I imagine certain practitioners would link up with hospitals or medical practices.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 07:34:47 AM by justajane »

Cpa Cat

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #99 on: June 25, 2016, 11:06:29 AM »
Here's my Chiropractor story -

My husband had chronic back pain. He went to a chiropractor who we shall call Dr Quack. Dr Quack had a lot of weird machines that promised to stretch your spine, or deliver electric shocks to your spine, plus he did the usual crack your spine stuff. My husband's chronic back pain was not cured though he kept going to Dr Quack for two-three years.

So, he did the whole MRI + cortisone shots thing, after consulting with MDs. It didn't work. The pain management doctor offered him pain killers and said the next step might be surgery. Of course, it was never really clear what was wrong or how surgery was going to fix it.

He resolved to give up on all of it - quit going to the chiropractor, didn't go back for any more shots or surgery or painkillers. He just lived with it.

Eventually someone recommended a chiropractor who treats the local university basketball team. He practices ART (Active Release Technique). This guy was all about core-strenghtening exercises and stretches, under the theory that a strong core protects your spine. And it worked. After about a month of daily stretches and exercises, my husband's back pain stopped. If he stops doing the exercises, it'll come back.

None of the three different MDs who consulted on his back pain ever recommended physical therapy. They didn't even hint that muscle weakness could be the root cause of his problems. Years and years of chronic, crippling back problems... cured by a few stretches.

So my conclusion, based on my limited experience and anecdotal evidence, is if your chiropractor has weird machines and essential oils, then it's probably a Dr Quack. If your chiropractor is more about teaching you how to move properly, sit properly, and stretch properly, then maybe they're a good one.