Author Topic: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing  (Read 35761 times)

frugalnacho

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #100 on: June 25, 2016, 11:30:38 AM »
Wait...people go to chiropractors who are not medical doctors? Ok then yes, that is just crazy. Idk about chiropractic 'certifications.' My chiropractor has a medical degree, I believe it is in neurology (although I don't know all the letters).
I mean, the whole history of chiropractic is based on really antiscientific and pseudoscientific claims, and "Doctor of Chiropractic" isn't the same as an MD at all - you can get into a chiropractic school without a bachelor's degree, even, and they have much laxer requirements than most med schools. I'm glad that lots of chiros seem to provide benefits to their clients, but it's hard to buy into a supposed medical field that has a history of being anti-vaccine, anti-fluoridation of water, pro-homeopathy, etc. There are definitely some chiros trying to clean up the field, but there are also a ton of quacks out there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism
Uh...no. I mean real MD. He went to med school, did residency, everything. I don't know what kind of quacks might be out there, I'm just talking about this one guy. I wouldn't go to one that wasn't an actual doctor.

Who the fuck goes to medical school and does a residency then works as a chiropractor?  I was under the impression the two fields are in no way related, the schooling is unrelated, and the certification is unrelated.  You don't need a medical degree of any kind to work as a chiropractor, so why would anyone choose to use their real medical degree for that purpose?

Beard N Bones

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #101 on: June 25, 2016, 11:58:45 AM »
Wait...people go to chiropractors who are not medical doctors? Ok then yes, that is just crazy. Idk about chiropractic 'certifications.' My chiropractor has a medical degree, I believe it is in neurology (although I don't know all the letters).
I mean, the whole history of chiropractic is based on really antiscientific and pseudoscientific claims, and "Doctor of Chiropractic" isn't the same as an MD at all - you can get into a chiropractic school without a bachelor's degree, even, and they have much laxer requirements than most med schools. I'm glad that lots of chiros seem to provide benefits to their clients, but it's hard to buy into a supposed medical field that has a history of being anti-vaccine, anti-fluoridation of water, pro-homeopathy, etc. There are definitely some chiros trying to clean up the field, but there are also a ton of quacks out there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism
Uh...no. I mean real MD. He went to med school, did residency, everything. I don't know what kind of quacks might be out there, I'm just talking about this one guy. I wouldn't go to one that wasn't an actual doctor.

Who the fuck goes to medical school and does a residency then works as a chiropractor?  I was under the impression the two fields are in no way related, the schooling is unrelated, and the certification is unrelated.  You don't need a medical degree of any kind to work as a chiropractor, so why would anyone choose to use their real medical degree for that purpose?

Paper that highlights the Chiropractic profession in Switzerland: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20937430
It's more common than you are aware of. Maybe not so much if you live in the sticks of the USA apparently.

Taken from the conclusion of the linked article:
Quote
Chiropractic practice in Switzerland is a government-recognized medical profession with significant interprofessional referrals resulting in earlier chiropractic treatment for many patients. However, Swiss chiropractic practitioners still retain their professional identity and focus of practice.

iris lily

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #102 on: June 25, 2016, 01:03:26 PM »
 In a positive story about chiropractors, my friend had severe spine and vertebra problems.  She went to a chiropractor. He took an x-ray, looked at it, and said "lady I am not going to touch you. You need an orthopedic surgeon. "

 So, that was good!

iris lily

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #103 on: June 25, 2016, 01:08:06 PM »
I didn't intend for the comment I made about "burning things between my toes" to be taken as a way to besmirch all chiropractors. In fact, my chiropractor was a trained acupuncturist as well, and what I described was Moxibustion, an ancient Chinese practice, used to turn breech babies and deal with menstrual cramps for centuries. Call it quackery if you want, but it had nothing to do with her chiropractic training.

And, yes, the main thing she did was the Webster Technique that balances your pelvis.

While I certainly understand some people's hesitancy in terms of chiropractic medicine, the reality is that traditional medicine hasn't always been able to provide non-invasive relief from lower back pain that doesn't include lots of narcotics, nerve blocks, etc. That's one area in which I would personally use a chiropractor again in the future. All the other claims are quackery IMO, but for back pain, I think they have some legitimate methods that do provide relief.

Now funny maybe, but I have a generalized respect foe acupuncturists although I have not, and probably would not, visit one.

Regarding your other post: sure PT's rock! My dad was a PT and I was aware early in life what they could do.

I dont have a whole lot of respect toward the general world of MD's and their 3 minute office visits.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 01:23:57 PM by iris lily »

iris lily

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #104 on: June 25, 2016, 01:19:49 PM »
Wait...people go to chiropractors who are not medical doctors? Ok then yes, that is just crazy. Idk about chiropractic 'certifications.' My chiropractor has a medical degree, I believe it is in neurology (although I don't know all the letters).
I mean, the whole history of chiropractic is based on really antiscientific and pseudoscientific claims, and "Doctor of Chiropractic" isn't the same as an MD at all - you can get into a chiropractic school without a bachelor's degree, even, and they have much laxer requirements than most med schools. I'm glad that lots of chiros seem to provide benefits to their clients, but it's hard to buy into a supposed medical field that has a history of being anti-vaccine, anti-fluoridation of water, pro-homeopathy, etc. There are definitely some chiros trying to clean up the field, but there are also a ton of quacks out there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism
Uh...no. I mean real MD. He went to med school, did residency, everything. I don't know what kind of quacks might be out there, I'm just talking about this one guy. I wouldn't go to one that wasn't an actual doctor.

Who the fuck goes to medical school and does a residency then works as a chiropractor?  I was under the impression the two fields are in no way related, the schooling is unrelated, and the certification is unrelated.  You don't need a medical degree of any kind to work as a chiropractor, so why would anyone choose to use their real medical degree for that purpose?

Paper that highlights the Chiropractic profession in Switzerland: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20937430
It's more common than you are aware of. Maybe not so much if you live in the sticks of the USA apparently.

Taken from the conclusion of the linked article:
Quote
Chiropractic practice in Switzerland is a government-recognized medical profession with significant interprofessional referrals resulting in earlier chiropractic treatment for many patients. However, Swiss chiropractic practitioners still retain their professional identity and focus of practice.
Living in the sticks as I do, I see hick chiros who serve their vulnerable hick-from-the-sticks clients by pushing MLM stuff, woo, and anything to make an easy buck on them. There are too many chiros, like attorneys, and they have to scrample to make a living.

Theses activities are not prohibited, so why would I report them? If they want to sell essential oils in their office, I dont care.

Our Swiss cousin was smart enough to capitalize on the big money/low regulation of U.S. chiropractic profession and make his big money. Then he took the big money and moved back to Switzerland to buy income  property. Yay for  him! i avsolutely admire and respect his entrepreneurial spirit and hard work, but I do not admire his dedication to patient care.

Finally, I know that health professionals are trained, licensed, and regulated differently in areas of the world. I  admit that in .Canada,  chiros may be entirely trustworthy and respected in their professionalism. Many here in the U.S. can be respected, too. i just wince like posters above when friends and family immediately talk anout going to a chirpractor for aches and pains. I dont think that is the best route, generally speaking.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 01:25:05 PM by iris lily »

iris lily

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #105 on: June 25, 2016, 01:34:43 PM »
Here's my Chiropractor story -
...

So my conclusion, based on my limited experience and anecdotal evidence, is if your chiropractor has weird machines and essential oils, then it's probably a Dr Quack. If your chiropractor is more about teaching you how to move properly, sit properly, and stretch properly, then maybe they're a good one.
In other words, if your chiro is more like a PT then they are a good one.  Or perhaps just go to PT to start with a side benefit being you wont have to step through MLM products to get treatment.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 01:37:05 PM by iris lily »

Blonde Lawyer

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #106 on: June 25, 2016, 01:36:28 PM »
ART chiropractic is amazing.  A regular PT wouldn't be enough for me.  I still need some cracking and aligning in there too.

My MLM "confession" is that I LOVE Avon eyeliner.  It is the only one I use and will use it as long as they are in business.  It's cheap too.  I'm in my 30's and still buying it from the same lady in my hometown that sold me my first lipstick at 13.  I just by it online through her now and it is shipped to me in my new state. 

justajane

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #107 on: June 27, 2016, 01:27:19 PM »
An MLM person on my FB feed just posted this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/regan-long/the-brutal-truth-about-those-pyramid-schemes_b_10602586.html

Basically it lays out some of the same ole MLM claims that those who use them are "small business owners" and that the next time you see someone asking for your business on their FB feed that you should think about how they're a mom or dad trying to support their family "in these difficult economic times." So, yeah, basically everything that I hate about MLMs.

I actually had someone pay the "I'm just a SAHM trying to support my family while my husband goes to seminary" line to try to get me to buy Mary Kay make-up. This was especially rich considering I'd already told her I don't wear make-up.

Blonde Lawyer

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #108 on: June 27, 2016, 04:24:03 PM »


I actually had someone pay the "I'm just a SAHM trying to support my family while my husband goes to seminary" line to try to get me to buy Mary Kay make-up. This was especially rich considering I'd already told her I don't wear make-up.

You were the perfect potential client.  If she could hook you on wearing make up you would have to buy a ton since you don't have any already.  You have no brand preference yet. :)

justajane

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #109 on: June 27, 2016, 04:49:04 PM »


I actually had someone pay the "I'm just a SAHM trying to support my family while my husband goes to seminary" line to try to get me to buy Mary Kay make-up. This was especially rich considering I'd already told her I don't wear make-up.

You were the perfect potential client.  If she could hook you on wearing make up you would have to buy a ton since you don't have any already.  You have no brand preference yet. :)

True, though 15 years later I still don't wear make-up. I'm pretty stubborn, the more she tried to convince that something was missing in my life for not wearing make-up, the less likely I probably was going to be to buy it.

My stubbornness, however, didn't keep the whole thing from being damned uncomfortable. Thankfully it was on the phone, though.

JetBlast

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #110 on: June 27, 2016, 05:48:39 PM »
An MLM person on my FB feed just posted this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/regan-long/the-brutal-truth-about-those-pyramid-schemes_b_10602586.html

Basically it lays out some of the same ole MLM claims that those who use them are "small business owners" and that the next time you see someone asking for your business on their FB feed that you should think about how they're a mom or dad trying to support their family "in these difficult economic times." So, yeah, basically everything that I hate about MLMs.


That link is just sad. All the same old, faulty arguments, with a liberal dose of cult-like thinking. I especially liked their reasoning that they aren't pyramid schemes because those are illegal. With that undeniable logic I can break into my next door neighbor's home, take their jewelry back to my home, then tell the police that it obviously wasn't burglary because, you know, burglary is illegal.

Goldielocks

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #111 on: June 28, 2016, 12:02:46 AM »
DS turned 14 today.  My lovely SIL, who is MLM for Scentsy, gave him a fist sized stuffed animal that attaches to your backpack, with "melon" scent.

I told him that it was the thought that counts, but I don't know if she really thought a 14 year old boy would prefer a cute stuffed animal, (that triggers his asthma with so much scent) or just gives a present with anything "kid" like in her kit that is not selling...   This is the seventh "sentsy" present from her (or MIL bought from her) in the past 2 years, for someone in our 4 person family.

Thank goodness she doesn't MLM for jamberry.  I don't think I could stand seeing DS open nail wraps as a gift for him.

Really people, cash for a 14 year old is fine.  So is just a card.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 12:04:25 AM by goldielocks »

JetBlast

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #112 on: June 29, 2016, 04:52:39 PM »
My wife went to a free class at a nearby Aveda salon to learn how to make your own body scrub/wash.  Of course the salon decides to let a doTerra "consultant" pitch all people that attended on their overpriced essential oils and how you can get them so much cheaper if you buy wholesale as a rep. Now of course all the people in class are getting guilt tripped into supporting this nonsense GRRRRR!!!!

Gotta love a company that got smacked down by the FDA for claiming their oils could cure cancer and prevent you from getting Ebola.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #113 on: June 30, 2016, 08:48:25 AM »
My wife went to a free class at a nearby Aveda salon to learn how to make your own body scrub/wash.  Of course the salon decides to let a doTerra "consultant" pitch all people that attended on their overpriced essential oils and how you can get them so much cheaper if you buy wholesale as a rep. Now of course all the people in class are getting guilt tripped into supporting this nonsense GRRRRR!!!!

Gotta love a company that got smacked down by the FDA for claiming their oils could cure cancer and prevent you from getting Ebola.

Classes like those make me want to puke, and not just because of the grade of product being touted.

I taught essential oil classes off and on for years, since I have all kinds of weird hobbies and one of them is perfume making. A person with weird hobbies can gradually accumulate a lot of odd little potions and bits of knowledge. Since I had some friends who ran a retail store where they sold a variety of things including some decent quality essential oils I used for my hobby, I agreed to do classes for them in exchange for donations to one of the charities I was supporting at the time. The classes featured oils that were available in the store, but they were more likely to emphasize techniques for making things like candles, perfume, and such.

The classes I gave always had a section on safety, and any time I talked about medical applications I cited peer reviewed studies and clinical trials. I did my best to debunk some of the happy hippie crap. Finally there was a section devoted to something else, like the science of how to make essential oils or else specific skills like making candles or your own perfume. I'd definitely mention some of the cultural associations between ideas and fragrances, including a few "traditional" attributions that are generally made up within the last 30 years. But one of the skills I loved to pass on was the ability to tell which essential oils are real, and which have a synthetic carrier. I like to think I temporarily damaged the quackery business in my neck of the woods, but probably not. There's an amazing number of stupid people out there.

The weirdest thing was when one of the local "professional" aromatherapists and woo-woo artists would take my class and then turn around and try to sell their knowledge to the general public. I was mildly irked at first but then I realized actual science was being promulgated instead of happy hippie crap. So I decided I didn't mind. But it was a strange thing to see someone who introduced herself as a professional aromatherapist sit in my class while I explained why her entire profession was bullshit because it was based on junk science... and she'd be there nodding, smiling, and taking copious notes. I was thinking: "Wow, lady... I just slammed your entire profession... aren't you going to at least say something in your own defense, or are you so desperate for actual information that you're willing to let it ride? Or are you just so stupid that you don't realize you've just been utterly humiliated?"

It turns out that, yes, they really were that stupid. That's why there's a market for junk science like MLM essential oils.

faithless

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #114 on: June 30, 2016, 09:04:31 AM »
But one of the skills I loved to pass on was the ability to tell which essential oils are real, and which have a synthetic carrier.

What is the difference important for, and how do you tell?

I don't think we have this essential oil industry thing in the UK, you can buy scented oils, eg to put in a massage oil, or to burn in an oil burner as a house scent, but I've never heard of them being used for health apart from lavender supposed to be to be relaxing/encourage sleep, peppermint smell helps you feel less sick?

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #115 on: June 30, 2016, 09:22:09 AM »
But one of the skills I loved to pass on was the ability to tell which essential oils are real, and which have a synthetic carrier.

What is the difference important for, and how do you tell?

I don't think we have this essential oil industry thing in the UK, you can buy scented oils, eg to put in a massage oil, or to burn in an oil burner as a house scent, but I've never heard of them being used for health apart from lavender supposed to be to be relaxing/encourage sleep, peppermint smell helps you feel less sick?

The ones with a synthetic carrier smell like soap compared to the ones with no carrier. To tell the difference, it's helpful to have a milder-smelling oil, like neroli, with one vial from a cheaper manufacturer using a synthetic carrier and the other a pure oil. That will make the synthetic, soapy smell pop right out in a way that would be masked with a stronger odor like cinnamon.

Synthetic oils are an excellent product. They are far better and safer for burning or diffusing, because they're less volatile and the flash point is higher so you're less likely to have a fire. They also integrate better into candles and soaps than the pure oils do (the pure oils tend to rise to the top surface and sometimes even pool there instead of mixing). For medical applications and for perfume making I prefer the pure oils.

Essential oil of lavender reduces scars from burning and has mild antiseptic properties. It is also a plant estrogen, which in large concentration can cause breast development in boys. That's one of the reasons I don't approve of its use by boys. Eugenol, the active ingredient in essential oil of cloves, is an effective topical dental painkiller for many (but not all).

faithless

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #116 on: June 30, 2016, 09:41:27 AM »
Thanks TGS, that's interesting.

(Also your name reminds me of Terry Pratchett and makes me smile.)

JetBlast

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #117 on: June 30, 2016, 02:18:00 PM »
But one of the skills I loved to pass on was the ability to tell which essential oils are real, and which have a synthetic carrier.

What is the difference important for, and how do you tell?

I don't think we have this essential oil industry thing in the UK, you can buy scented oils, eg to put in a massage oil, or to burn in an oil burner as a house scent, but I've never heard of them being used for health apart from lavender supposed to be to be relaxing/encourage sleep, peppermint smell helps you feel less sick?

The ones with a synthetic carrier smell like soap compared to the ones with no carrier. To tell the difference, it's helpful to have a milder-smelling oil, like neroli, with one vial from a cheaper manufacturer using a synthetic carrier and the other a pure oil. That will make the synthetic, soapy smell pop right out in a way that would be masked with a stronger odor like cinnamon.

Synthetic oils are an excellent product. They are far better and safer for burning or diffusing, because they're less volatile and the flash point is higher so you're less likely to have a fire. They also integrate better into candles and soaps than the pure oils do (the pure oils tend to rise to the top surface and sometimes even pool there instead of mixing). For medical applications and for perfume making I prefer the pure oils.

Essential oil of lavender reduces scars from burning and has mild antiseptic properties. It is also a plant estrogen, which in large concentration can cause breast development in boys. That's one of the reasons I don't approve of its use by boys. Eugenol, the active ingredient in essential oil of cloves, is an effective topical dental painkiller for many (but not all).

Learn something new every day.  Thanks for the informative post TGS!

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2016, 07:46:32 PM »
Yet more Lularoe nonsense is popping up on facebook, so just popping in to say-

one day we'll look back at leggings with the same horror reserved for acid wash mom jeans.

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Goldielocks

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2016, 11:39:24 PM »
Yet more Lularoe nonsense is popping up on facebook, so just popping in to say-

one day we'll look back at leggings with the same horror reserved for acid wash mom jeans.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Huh?  I did not know any mom's were wearing acid wash unless they were trying to look under 30.   It was reserved for the under 22 set when it first came out...

I do agree that some moms in leggings are indeed horrific to look at.  At least young people with out of shape bodies still have young bodies....

Kaydedid

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #120 on: July 06, 2016, 08:21:26 AM »
Yet more Lularoe nonsense is popping up on facebook, so just popping in to say-

one day we'll look back at leggings with the same horror reserved for acid wash mom jeans.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Huh?  I did not know any mom's were wearing acid wash unless they were trying to look under 30.   It was reserved for the under 22 set when it first came out...

I do agree that some moms in leggings are indeed horrific to look at.  At least young people with out of shape bodies still have young bodies....
Hm, my mom had a pair of these back in the day, from a garage sale.  Maybe she just scored a rare, extra - ugly find!

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deadlymonkey

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #121 on: July 06, 2016, 08:29:41 AM »
Yet more Lularoe nonsense is popping up on facebook, so just popping in to say-

one day we'll look back at leggings with the same horror reserved for acid wash mom jeans.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

My wife looks good in Lularoe, so I accept the cost.

joleran

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #122 on: July 11, 2016, 05:38:53 AM »
Eugenol, the active ingredient in essential oil of cloves, is an effective topical dental painkiller for many (but not all).

Yeah, I've actually had dentists use that before.

AlwaysLearningToSave

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #123 on: July 11, 2016, 07:45:07 AM »
Everything you need to know: https://www.factsaboutherbalife.com/

Looks like a good website dealing with Herbalife directly.  I have found that the following paper written by Jon M. Taylor, PhD. has been the best in explaining the pitfalls of MLMs in general (IMO, it is a must read):

I also ran across some of Jon Taylor's work and think it is some of the best literature available. 

I've found it hard to find an even-handed assessment of MLMs-- people tend to be either pro-MLM because they make money or hope to make money from MLMs or vehemently anti-MLM based on a knee-jerk reaction that it is a scam but with little critical examination of the business model. 

Here is a link to his book The Case (For and) Against Multi-Level Marketing:  http://www.mlmwatch.org/01General/taylor.pdf

I find his personal experience to make him uniquely qualified to opine on the subject and I like his data-driven analyses.  He reaches a vehement anti-MLM conclusion but does a better job of explaining why than any other resource I have found. 


mm1970

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2016, 11:13:05 AM »
Everything you need to know: https://www.factsaboutherbalife.com/

Looks like a good website dealing with Herbalife directly.  I have found that the following paper written by Jon M. Taylor, PhD. has been the best in explaining the pitfalls of MLMs in general (IMO, it is a must read):

I also ran across some of Jon Taylor's work and think it is some of the best literature available. 

I've found it hard to find an even-handed assessment of MLMs-- people tend to be either pro-MLM because they make money or hope to make money from MLMs or vehemently anti-MLM based on a knee-jerk reaction that it is a scam but with little critical examination of the business model. 

Here is a link to his book The Case (For and) Against Multi-Level Marketing:  http://www.mlmwatch.org/01General/taylor.pdf

I find his personal experience to make him uniquely qualified to opine on the subject and I like his data-driven analyses.  He reaches a vehement anti-MLM conclusion but does a better job of explaining why than any other resource I have found.
I read through several pages of that.  It's very good.

As I've mentioned before, I know a lot of Beach Body coaches.  And a good friend just became one.  I personally like the products (the workouts are fantastic, and they are great for people like me with little time to workout, and need to workout at home a lot because of the kids).  I also like the shakeology, but could probably take it or leave it.

But I've always been skeptical of the system.  I *see* people who are successful.  And a few of my friends and acquaintances do well because it's an extension of their real world businesses.  Some of them have fitness businesses, so they are able to host regular workout classes.  Some are certified nutritionists.  Beachbody ends up being an extra income stream, but they all work very hard at it.

One acquaintance just quit after a few years.  She had a few good years, and was able to quit her job (well, sell her business which was very hands on and physical).  Even though she had some success, she found that she was having to work harder and harder every year to maintain the same level of income.  Partly due to saturation, and partly due to the system itself.  While I think there is some residual income that comes from building a downline (I've not really looked into it), it's small.  The real money comes in direct sales.  However, you only get points for *new* customers.  My goodness, I cannot imagine having to get 10 new customers a month (or however many) for eternity.  Obviously that will not work forever.  So you end up competing with more and more "coaches".

In any event, I'd like to say that she turned over a new leaf, but she's onto a different MLM (some supplement company) where she makes a "lot more money right off the bat".

While I think some of the things they promote are great - they recommend a lot of "personal development" books, teach people about marketing, etc., in addition to the workouts and eating plans, it's just not sustainable.  I'm happy to buy the workouts (about 1 per year).

Frugal D

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #125 on: July 15, 2016, 09:43:12 AM »
BREAKING: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-herbalife-probe-ftc-idUSKCN0ZV1F7

Herbalife shares are rallying on the settlement, but longer term, I don't see how they can continue to make money if they do truly change their business operations per the FTC.

I also can't believe the FTC didn't shut them down after they basically found them to be an illegal pyramid scheme. Instead of shutting them down they just fine them?

There's no justice.

jzb11

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2016, 09:45:48 AM »
I have a friend who started with a financial MLM (selling life insurance, investments, and some other products). He's now making $1 million/yr. While his story is atypical, a few of the MLM opportunities are actually legitimate.

Frugal D

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #127 on: July 15, 2016, 09:54:11 AM »
I have a friend who started with a financial MLM (selling life insurance, investments, and some other products). He's now making $1 million/yr. While his story is atypical, a few of the MLM opportunities are actually legitimate.

Selling life insurance, investments, and "some other products" is obviously a scam. Recruiting other people to also do so makes it a bigger scam. Probably not a true pyramid scheme, but morally reprehensible nonetheless.

notactiveanymore

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #128 on: July 15, 2016, 11:06:58 AM »
I was in a Panera one morning a few years ago working on my laptop and at the table next to me a young woman (found out she was 19) was there with her baby. She was then met by a middle-aged woman who started to try and sell her on this "business opportunity". It was selling life insurance and "other products" and she started talking about how easy it is and how you can get all your friends and family to sign up and you make money on it and it's just the Best Thing Ever. The young mom shared that it would be great to get more income because she doesn't always get help from her child's father and she only made like $8/hr.

As I sat there, I googled the company name and found a litany of horror stories about how they make you pay for startup classes and study guides and certifications. Then you're left high and dry and trying to pretend you're an insurance salesman when you only know the memorized lines.

At the end of the meeting the girl got up with her baby to leave and I followed her outside and caught up with her. I just encouraged her to google the company and be careful because it seemed like a scam and I didn't want her to get caught up in it and lose money.

So many MLMs target these kinds of people. It's  gross. It's not about networks or using your social connections to inform people of a great product and greater opportunity. It's about chewing up and spitting out as many fools as you can.

KodeBlue

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #129 on: July 18, 2016, 04:35:11 PM »
I was in a Panera ... The young mom shared that it would be great to get more income because she doesn't always get help from her child's father and she only made like $8/hr.

And yet she's eating at Panera's...

BlueHouse

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #130 on: July 19, 2016, 03:47:57 AM »
I was in a Panera ... The young mom shared that it would be great to get more income because she doesn't always get help from her child's father and she only made like $8/hr.

And yet she's eating at Panera's...

MLM salespeople invite their targets to planetary, Starbucks, etc for coffee or a sandwich. The sales ass probably paid.

notactiveanymore

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #131 on: July 19, 2016, 07:57:21 AM »
I was in a Panera ... The young mom shared that it would be great to get more income because she doesn't always get help from her child's father and she only made like $8/hr.

And yet she's eating at Panera's...

MLM salespeople invite their targets to planetary, Starbucks, etc for coffee or a sandwich. The sales ass probably paid.

I don't remember either of them even having anything to eat or drink. I'm pretty sure you can get a cookie for $1 if you want though.

jzb11

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #132 on: July 19, 2016, 08:24:58 AM »
I have a friend who started with a financial MLM (selling life insurance, investments, and some other products). He's now making $1 million/yr. While his story is atypical, a few of the MLM opportunities are actually legitimate.

Selling life insurance, investments, and "some other products" is obviously a scam. Recruiting other people to also do so makes it a bigger scam. Probably not a true pyramid scheme, but morally reprehensible nonetheless.

He sells term life, investments (mostly mutual funds), and other related products (identity theft insurance, auto insurance etc). He holds the appropriate licenses to do so. He's basically a salesman and recruits a team of salesmen.

He certainly doesn't offer or suggest low cost index funds for investment options, but it's no better or worse than your typical broker. The term life product is good/fair. Auto is hit or miss. Overall there's not much scammy about it. It's basically a sales job.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 08:28:06 AM by jzb11 »

AlwaysLearningToSave

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #133 on: July 19, 2016, 12:08:06 PM »
So here is my problem with discussions about the legitimacy or illegitimacy of MLMs-- the conversations often devolve into arguments about whether or how likely it is that a participant can make money, which completely begs the question of whether it is a legitimate business model.

The Anti-MLM person argues that MLMs are scams because of a largely unsubstantiated claim that the vast majority of participants lose money (the claims are unsubstantiated only because of the difficulty in obtaining accurate information) or by citing some anecdotal evidence of a particular person's experience with a particular MLM business.  The Pro-MLM person responds by conceding that many participants are not "successful," but pointing out "atypical" or "unusual" anecdotal examples of people who are "successful."  Of course, it is unclear what they mean by "successful" but it is probably safe to assume they mean earning more than a nominal amount of profit from operating the business.  Round and round the conversation goes, with neither side convincing the other of anything. 

But both sides of this conversation miss the point.  The Anti-MLM person's argument misses the point because the vast majority of startup businesses fail in the first 18 months, even if they are widely recognized as legitimate business models.  So even if the statistics are true and most MLM participants end up losing money or not earning more than a nominal profit, this premise does not necessarily support the conclusion that MLM is an illegitimate business model.  Further complicating the argument is that the Anti-MLM person lumps together all MLM participants when making his claim.  Is it really fair to lump in the person who signs up with an MLM to gain access to products for personal consumption at a lower cost without any real intention of attempting to make a business?

Similarly, the Pro-MLM person's argument misses the point.  Clearly some participants make money-- the business model would not exist if no one but the product manufacturer ever made money.  But the fact a business earns a profit does not necessarily mean that the business is legitimate.  To take this argument to the extreme, you could argue that theft, extortion, copyright infringement, prostitution, and panhandling are legitimate businesses because [insert anecdotal example of someone who makes money in one of these activities]. 

I think the argument over the legitimacy of a MLM business model therefore has to focus on something other than profits (or potential profits) and the perceived value of products marketed under an MLM business model.  Instead, the debate needs to focus on analysis of the economic incentives a business model creates.  It needs to focus on disclosures made to potential participants.  It needs to focus on a company's accountability for its marketing message, especially for products consumers will use for perceived health benefits. 

When you focus on these non-monetary issues, then the problems with the MLM business model start to become apparent.  The endless chains created by the compensation structures create economic incentives that are unsustainable by design.  It is very difficult for potential participants to protect themselves because MLM businesses take pains to avoid being pigeonholed into any legal classification and then benefit from the lack of regulation associated with residing in legal limbo.  MLM businesses keep required purchases below $500 and avoid exercising control over participants in order to avoid application of franchise laws and their mandatory disclosure rules.  They keep up the ruse of being a direct sales business to avoid regulations associated with the sale of securities.  They take pains to avoid having participants classified as employees in attempts to avoid wage and hour laws.  They use the independent contractor to benefit from the difficulty of enforcing truth-in-advertising and deceptive trade practices laws by benefiting from participants' deceptive claims about products but denying responsibility for participants' actions when challenged (and of course it is economically impractical to pursue individual participants who made deceptive claims). 

All these factors mean that it is difficult for consumers and potential MLM participants to conduct a meaningful investigation into a given MLM and protect themselves.  The low cost of entry means many potential MLM participants are people who lack the business knowledge to critically evaluate a business opportunity.  And the unsustainable-by-design compensation structures mean that sooner or later new participants will enter a saturated market with little or no chance of realizing the profit potential that earlier participants used to persuade the new participants to join. 
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 12:22:26 PM by AlwaysLearningToSave »

Trudie

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #134 on: July 19, 2016, 12:17:29 PM »
Beachbody sucked me in because they have great home workouts and health supplements that I have used to lose weight and get fit. I am officially a "Beachbody Coach", but only because I wanted the "coach discount" for a supplement I take that they sell called "Shakeology". It's basically a protein shake drink with a lot of herbs, vitamins, and minerals. It's expensive (about $115 for a 30 day supply), but I use it to replace one meal a day and partially pay for it by eliminating my alcohol purchasing.

I never had any intention of selling this stuff to anybody else, but they had me watch the coaching video conference when I officially joined and it is ridiculous. Their entire structure isn't based on selling videos and supplements. It's based on getting more Beachbody coaches. Everyone is a coach and nobody has any customers. The only sales they are getting are from other Beachbody coaches. Lots of desperate people are wasting hundreds of hours a month in the pointless pursuit of more coaches when they could be using that time to run a real side hustle and actually make money. For example, I make money teaching martial arts classes three days a week.

Kind of sounds like the yoga studio I go to.  They push everyone to consider "yoga teacher training" -- many of whom will never work a day as a yoga instructor.  Says it "deepens" your practice.  Um, no.  And it's an obscene amount of hours.  Sounds to me like a way to subsidize expensive training for legit teachers already on staff.

woopwoop

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #135 on: July 19, 2016, 03:23:35 PM »
I think the argument over the legitimacy of a MLM business model therefore has to focus on something other than profits (or potential profits) and the perceived value of products marketed under an MLM business model. 

How's about this as a bonus criteria: if you're randomly messaging facebook friends about "an amazing opportunity", you're not operating a legitimate business.

Beard N Bones

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #136 on: December 23, 2016, 08:47:46 AM »
Don't join an MLM marketing without enough knowledge. To make the chance of success higher try enroll on a business training online that would be a lot of help.

This isn't the place to peddle your scam.  Go deceive your own friends and family instead.

The irony is not lost on the fact that this was posted in the "Wall of Shame" section.
The only thing funny about this all is the screenshot taken from the Ariix website regarding one of their 7 "founders."

Drifterrider

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #137 on: December 29, 2016, 10:32:46 AM »
Isn't virtually everything really MLM?  Farmer sells to whole seller who sells to distributor who sells to stores who sells to you.


joleran

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #138 on: December 29, 2016, 11:46:21 AM »
Isn't virtually everything really MLM?  Farmer sells to whole seller who sells to distributor who sells to stores who sells to you.

MLMs are just slightly refined pyramid schemes where it's theoretically possible to make money selling things, but it benefits you considerably more to expand the pyramid.  While you can sometimes draw traditional supply chains in a pyramidal model, this isn't always the case and the core motivators tend more towards efficiently distributing products and wealth than adding new layers solely for personal enrichment.

MrsDinero

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #139 on: December 29, 2016, 01:33:04 PM »
All my Beachbody FB coach friends are gearing up for the new year!  There is a lot of "lose weight and earn money!" posts. 

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #140 on: December 29, 2016, 02:57:35 PM »
Wait...people go to chiropractors who are not medical doctors? Ok then yes, that is just crazy. Idk about chiropractic 'certifications.' My chiropractor has a medical degree, I believe it is in neurology (although I don't know all the letters).
I mean, the whole history of chiropractic is based on really antiscientific and pseudoscientific claims, and "Doctor of Chiropractic" isn't the same as an MD at all - you can get into a chiropractic school without a bachelor's degree, even, and they have much laxer requirements than most med schools. I'm glad that lots of chiros seem to provide benefits to their clients, but it's hard to buy into a supposed medical field that has a history of being anti-vaccine, anti-fluoridation of water, pro-homeopathy, etc. There are definitely some chiros trying to clean up the field, but there are also a ton of quacks out there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism
Uh...no. I mean real MD. He went to med school, did residency, everything. I don't know what kind of quacks might be out there, I'm just talking about this one guy. I wouldn't go to one that wasn't an actual doctor.

Sounds like your guy is a DO vs and MD.  They are both Medical Doctors.  DO's differ in that in addition to other medical stuff they also study Chiropractic stuff.  (I only know this because my area has a lot of DO's due to a large Medical school in this discipline nearby.)

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #141 on: December 29, 2016, 04:35:33 PM »
Wait...people go to chiropractors who are not medical doctors? Ok then yes, that is just crazy. Idk about chiropractic 'certifications.' My chiropractor has a medical degree, I believe it is in neurology (although I don't know all the letters).
I mean, the whole history of chiropractic is based on really antiscientific and pseudoscientific claims, and "Doctor of Chiropractic" isn't the same as an MD at all - you can get into a chiropractic school without a bachelor's degree, even, and they have much laxer requirements than most med schools. I'm glad that lots of chiros seem to provide benefits to their clients, but it's hard to buy into a supposed medical field that has a history of being anti-vaccine, anti-fluoridation of water, pro-homeopathy, etc. There are definitely some chiros trying to clean up the field, but there are also a ton of quacks out there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_controversy_and_criticism
Uh...no. I mean real MD. He went to med school, did residency, everything. I don't know what kind of quacks might be out there, I'm just talking about this one guy. I wouldn't go to one that wasn't an actual doctor.

Sounds like your guy is a DO vs and MD.  They are both Medical Doctors.  DO's differ in that in addition to other medical stuff they also study Chiropractic stuff.  (I only know this because my area has a lot of DO's due to a large Medical school in this discipline nearby.)

Much depends on our location. I took chiropractic seriously until I moved to the USA where it's touted as the all-in-one relief for everything from HIV to butt pimples. In Alberta (albeit about 20 years ago), they were considered professionals on par with physiotherapists because the services they provide (and are reimbursed for) are limited to a set of treatments that meet the provincial standards for evidence based medicine. It might since have changed; I haven't kept track of it.

robartsd

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #142 on: December 29, 2016, 04:44:01 PM »
I'm reasonably happy with experiences with purchases from Pampered Chef, Stampin' Up, AVON, and doTERRA. I've had/observed bad experiences with Amway, ACN, Melaleuca, and Monavie. Common to all that had positive experiences - a focus on selling the product. Common to all that had negative experiences - a focus on building the business.

I would only consider participating in MLM if:
  • I personally believe the product offered is a good value
  • No recruitment quota is required to be compensated for sales
  • No personal purchase is required to be compensated for sales
  • Compensation for sales outweighs recruitment bonuses
  • For any given sale at any given level, the compensation is at least as much as the combined compensation of all higher levels combined

gj83

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #143 on: December 29, 2016, 05:11:08 PM »


Yep. Anyone have thoughts on why it seems there is a higher percentage of "religous" people involved with MLM companies?
I figured that is because a lot of stay at home moms are very religious and they view it as a way to make extra money without working outside the house.

Sometimes I think I'm one of the few people not in a MLM.  I go to parties when invited, but I've unfollowed a lot of friends because their feed is just MLM after MLM.  One sells wraps, one sells oils, one sells jewelry, one sells Mary Kay. i haven't heard of most of the programs mentioned on this thread so maybe I'm lucky.

And if I had any medical professional hawk anything not medically necessary I would never go back.

rachellynn99

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #144 on: December 29, 2016, 05:35:35 PM »
Not 1 thing in this entire post is even remotely close to accurate. The products sold at all MLMs are shit and marked up egregiously. Most MLMs are illegal pyramid schemes. When recruiting becomes more central to actually selling the product it's a pyramid scheme.

I don't know, some of the stoneware from Pampered Chef is pretty nice. I pick it up at suburban garage sales from failed reps unloading old product.

YES! I received the large round one 13 years ago as a wedding gift. Use it no fewer than 3 times a week. My favorite.

NewPerspective

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #145 on: December 29, 2016, 06:33:59 PM »
I have friend that recently starting selling Kyani (nutritional supplement - it claims to cure and fix all sorts of things).  My friend has bought into it hook, line and sinker.  She is even talking like them, I swear it is like a cult.  I feel a little worried for her but I'm hoping it will play out soon and she won't have lost too much money.

cavewoman

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #146 on: December 29, 2016, 10:38:06 PM »
On facebook, a friend of a friend (how does this stuff show up in my feed?) does these fb live pearl parties, where someone is hosting the party virtually and she opens these oysters one at a time, calling out who gets each one. I looked it up and after you buy the oyster, and see your pearl, you get it mounted in jewelry from their catalog.

For some reason the videos fascinate me and I always find myself watching it.

Saskatchewstachian

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #147 on: January 09, 2017, 01:50:51 PM »
Has anyone here ever had any experience with financial type MLM?

I'm not 100% sure if they would classify but the general notion is that you have a sit-down with an "adviser" they would take down a bunch of information then help you with savings goals and retirement planning, this portion was actually well executed and thorough. The kicker here though is that all of their funds are ridiculously high fees (2.5%-3%). After the meeting they offer an invitation to an investing course, free of charge and hosted by the company, then try to sell you on becoming an adviser for the company. If you get to a certain level then you can open your own office and have advisers working for you.

At least that's how it was phrased, the gimmicky portion is the returns that they are promising and the compensation structure for the advisers. I.e.
  • A)"We can get you returns of 12%"
  • B)"You don't pay us, we are compensated by the banks at zero cost to you".
At the end of the meeting they also as for names and contact information of any friends that would be interested getting financial advice, if you give them the name of X number of friends you get an investing/wealth management book.

For point A it turns out that yes, the fund has returned 12%, once, in 2009.... SIGNIFICANTLY under-performing the market....

As for point B, it turns out that it is technically correct, you don't pay them directly but the funds are all such high fees you are paying the banks an outrage amount that the banks kick back a % to the adviser.

It's a tough situation as it's a colleague/friend of DW's got into it, he sat down with us and many friends and I know some invested with him. The crazy fees that they are paying are surely eating up their returns. However not being formally educated in investing, and being somewhat of a closet mustachian I can't really give advice to anyone nor would I want to overstep any boundaries with friends by bringing it up.

Just looking to see if anyone has ran into this before?

Travis

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #148 on: January 09, 2017, 01:59:54 PM »
Has anyone here ever had any experience with financial type MLM?

I'm not 100% sure if they would classify but the general notion is that you have a sit-down with an "adviser" they would take down a bunch of information then help you with savings goals and retirement planning, this portion was actually well executed and thorough. The kicker here though is that all of their funds are ridiculously high fees (2.5%-3%). After the meeting they offer an invitation to an investing course, free of charge and hosted by the company, then try to sell you on becoming an adviser for the company. If you get to a certain level then you can open your own office and have advisers working for you.

At least that's how it was phrased, the gimmicky portion is the returns that they are promising and the compensation structure for the advisers. I.e.
  • A)"We can get you returns of 12%"
  • B)"You don't pay us, we are compensated by the banks at zero cost to you".
At the end of the meeting they also as for names and contact information of any friends that would be interested getting financial advice, if you give them the name of X number of friends you get an investing/wealth management book.

For point A it turns out that yes, the fund has returned 12%, once, in 2009.... SIGNIFICANTLY under-performing the market....

As for point B, it turns out that it is technically correct, you don't pay them directly but the funds are all such high fees you are paying the banks an outrage amount that the banks kick back a % to the adviser.

It's a tough situation as it's a colleague/friend of DW's got into it, he sat down with us and many friends and I know some invested with him. The crazy fees that they are paying are surely eating up their returns. However not being formally educated in investing, and being somewhat of a closet mustachian I can't really give advice to anyone nor would I want to overstep any boundaries with friends by bringing it up.

Just looking to see if anyone has ran into this before?

Never heard of a financial MLM, but that sounds almost exactly like the Edward Jones business model. 

Saskatchewstachian

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Re: Multi-Level Marketing (MLM)/Network Marketing
« Reply #149 on: January 09, 2017, 02:12:57 PM »
Has anyone here ever had any experience with financial type MLM?

I'm not 100% sure if they would classify but the general notion is that you have a sit-down with an "adviser" they would take down a bunch of information then help you with savings goals and retirement planning, this portion was actually well executed and thorough. The kicker here though is that all of their funds are ridiculously high fees (2.5%-3%). After the meeting they offer an invitation to an investing course, free of charge and hosted by the company, then try to sell you on becoming an adviser for the company. If you get to a certain level then you can open your own office and have advisers working for you.

At least that's how it was phrased, the gimmicky portion is the returns that they are promising and the compensation structure for the advisers. I.e.
  • A)"We can get you returns of 12%"
  • B)"You don't pay us, we are compensated by the banks at zero cost to you".
At the end of the meeting they also as for names and contact information of any friends that would be interested getting financial advice, if you give them the name of X number of friends you get an investing/wealth management book.

For point A it turns out that yes, the fund has returned 12%, once, in 2009.... SIGNIFICANTLY under-performing the market....

As for point B, it turns out that it is technically correct, you don't pay them directly but the funds are all such high fees you are paying the banks an outrage amount that the banks kick back a % to the adviser.

It's a tough situation as it's a colleague/friend of DW's got into it, he sat down with us and many friends and I know some invested with him. The crazy fees that they are paying are surely eating up their returns. However not being formally educated in investing, and being somewhat of a closet mustachian I can't really give advice to anyone nor would I want to overstep any boundaries with friends by bringing it up.

Just looking to see if anyone has ran into this before?

Never heard of a financial MLM, but that sounds almost exactly like the Edward Jones business model.

Maybe it was just that the sales tactics were new to me but standard in the investment community. I've only ever done my own investments or automated workplace pensions so never have had any need of an adviser. Just seemed very MLM/Pyramid-like where they sign us up, then we get a course and accredited and sign others up.