Author Topic: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.  (Read 24002 times)

Fuzzy Buttons

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2016, 08:43:13 AM »
It's a bit like saying that people touching their face spreads disease thus there is a benefit to cutting people's arms off.

Yes, I can't tell you the number of times I've been holding two things and said to myself "Dammit!  I could pick up that third thing as well if only I still had my foreskin!". 

:)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 08:55:27 AM by Fuzzy Buttons »

mm1970

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2016, 11:56:49 AM »
I've always wondered about some of the opinions related to circ.  I have friends who are incredibly anti-vaccination because of the permanent damage you could be doing to your children, yet they run off to have their boys circ'd without question.
Your friends don't much sound like critical thinkers.
The crazy thing is though -
We are talking about extremely religious, home-schooling family of multiple children. Who are extremely anti-Common core because it's anti-American.  And everything, I mean everything, is a conspiracy.  Don't get me started on the essential oil shilling.

I'm constantly reading links to "articles" on FB about how awful Common Core is (I did say they homeschool, right?  So, no experience.).  How terrible vaccinations are.  They are also very conservative and Christian and anti-Obamacare. 

BUT...she and the kids are on Medi-Cal, because they choose to not pay for coverage from the spouse's work.  And they are eligible.  You imagine how I bit my tongue when she was looking for Medi-Cal doctors who don't push vax but will do circ.

Anyway, they act like critical thinkers, but just have a completely different thought process than me.  I'm not sure if they are just selective in who they listen to, or if they really don't understand science, statistics, studies, etc.

They aren't uneducated.  It's baffling.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 12:02:28 PM by mm1970 »

Magilla

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2016, 02:28:08 PM »
They aren't uneducated.  It's baffling.

The most dangerous people are not the most uneducated, but the people with just enough knowledge/education to make wrong inferences and conclusions yet believe they are right because they have that smidgen of knowledge.

zephyr911

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2016, 03:00:53 PM »
Anyway, they act like critical thinkers
How, exactly? Do you listen to the ways they justify things? Can their arguments be traced back to bloggers and pastors, or can they explain a rationale that is applied consistently in all areas?

Critical thinking and level of education don't always correlate these days....

mm1970

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2016, 05:31:24 PM »
Anyway, they act like critical thinkers
How, exactly? Do you listen to the ways they justify things? Can their arguments be traced back to bloggers and pastors, or can they explain a rationale that is applied consistently in all areas?

Critical thinking and level of education don't always correlate these days....
They seem to be very interested in doing research, reading about it, and discussing it - as opposed to just spouting off an opinion with no data whatsoever. 

They are just a bit selective on what they choose to believe.  Confirmation bias?  I don't know, nobody's perfect I guess.

Kat57

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2016, 06:04:27 PM »
Parents should get to choose how to raise their own chikdren.

This is not China, not Saudi Arabia.  We have a long history of people doing things their own way.

If parents dont want this school program or choose to homeschool or not vaccinate or any other choice, it is none of my business.  I hope the best for their choices and have many family headstones in military cemetary that exist because we believe, as a people, in personal free choice. We did not get to our level by supressing free thinkers.

I know many family groups who home school. I know many family groups who public school.

Shockingly both groups have produced normal human adults.  How they run their family is not anyone elses business.

woopwoop

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2016, 06:17:52 PM »
Deciding not to use common core is much different from deciding not to vaccinate. Herd immunity is a positive benefit to having a large majority of the population vaccinated. If someone decides not to vaccinate and their child gets the illness AND SPREADS IT, it can affect much more than their own family. Your rights end where someone else's begin.

We have plenty of limitations on how you choose to raise your children. You can't keep them in your basement sewing sneakers. You can't send them busking on the streets. You can't leave them in your car or starve them. There are plenty of reasonable limitations on parental control. It's not a black and white issue, and parents shouldn't be allowed to do whatever they want with their kids, because kids aren't property.

Kat57

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2016, 07:39:03 PM »
There is a big difference between running a sweatshop with child labor and raising children differently from the common herd. Do not equate different thinking with abuse.

I choose medcal intervention for the sake of MY CHILD.  Do not presume to do anything medical to my child for YOUR CHILD. That is some sick pc bullshit there. 

By the way, the Amish, and many other groups do not vaccinate at all. They are not only healthy, but miraculously free from autism and allergy problems and are much healthier than your average overdosed american.

One of my friends, 59, has never, ever been vaccinated for anything....ever.  Also, is healthy. 

My body, my right. My childs body, my right. Take your medical Nazi thinking to China, where they approve of that crap.  You dont get to make choices for me, or my children. This is still America.

Eric222

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2016, 07:54:40 PM »
I do not know if being frugal has made me hypervigilant, but I seem to see more stupidity than usual.  I have perfected my neutral expression to avoid exploding in laughter when certain situations present themselves.

Example

Person requests ride to go buy smokes at gas station. I do not smoke, but okay, I am already here. On the way, she holds up a water bottle that she got for $30.  This is a plastic insulated cup affair. But although $30 would be average for say, my sons indestructible stainless Clean Canteen, that can survive anything, this is not that kind of bottle. Purely cosmetic.  Worse, her husband works corporate agriculture and they do not have a reliable vehicle. She is an opiod popping nightmare that has run up 6k of DUI debt for him to pay off.  Yet, here she is buying smokes and sucking on a $30 water bottle. 

I have a very hard mustering up any sympathy for people who think it is okay to throw away money and then complain about poverty.  Really, I gag a little when I hear complaints from folks like this.
Okay - so I cringed when I say $30 water bottle, because I have have one...  It just happens to be an indestructible Kleen Kanteen that is going to last forever.  :)

tobitonic

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2016, 08:02:16 PM »
Deciding not to use common core is much different from deciding not to vaccinate. Herd immunity is a positive benefit to having a large majority of the population vaccinated. If someone decides not to vaccinate and their child gets the illness AND SPREADS IT, it can affect much more than their own family. Your rights end where someone else's begin.

We have plenty of limitations on how you choose to raise your children. You can't keep them in your basement sewing sneakers. You can't send them busking on the streets. You can't leave them in your car or starve them. There are plenty of reasonable limitations on parental control. It's not a black and white issue, and parents shouldn't be allowed to do whatever they want with their kids, because kids aren't property.

Thank you for bringing some sense into this discussion.


Kat57

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2016, 09:55:43 PM »
I really do not get you people. 

Logic has gone out the window and you just spew this nonsense like it is true. Do you hear yourself in the below statement? 

"If someone decides not to vaccinate and their child gets the illness AND SPREADS IT, it can affect much more than their own family."

People do repeat this over and over.  But think a minute.

If you vaccinate your child, your child will be protected.  If an unvaccinated third world kid happens into your little fully vaccinated group, it will be that kid, not yours, who gets sick.  The vaccinated group is supposed to be protected, right?

In any case, you should do for YOUR kids, what you deem best. Just like every other parent.


Kat57

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2016, 09:57:38 PM »
Clean Canteens are totally wonderful and durable. We have them in every size. They last for years and years. A great product.

Primm

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2016, 10:02:46 PM »
I really do not get you people. 

Logic has gone out the window and you just spew this nonsense like it is true. Do you hear yourself in the below statement? 

"If someone decides not to vaccinate and their child gets the illness AND SPREADS IT, it can affect much more than their own family."

People do repeat this over and over.  But think a minute.

If you vaccinate your child, your child will be protected.  If an unvaccinated third world kid happens into your little fully vaccinated group, it will be that kid, not yours, who gets sick.  The vaccinated group is supposed to be protected, right?

In any case, you should do for YOUR kids, what you deem best. Just like every other parent.

Except that there are people in the community for whom vaccination is not possible, or doesn't work. People like children having chemotherapy, who can't have vaccinations. People like tiny newborn babies, who don't have an immune system developed enough for immunisations to be effective yet. People who are taking immunosuppressants, for whom vaccination is pointless because they don't seroconvert. The tricky thing with these people is that the reason they can't get vaccinated is the same reason why they are most at risk from preventable diseases.

So you see, it isn't just your child who is at risk. It is all of the other children and adults who fall into those outlying groups.

Are you truly that selfish that you don't care what happens to them?

woopwoop

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2016, 10:55:12 PM »
My body, my right. My childs body, my right. Take your medical Nazi thinking to China, where they approve of that crap.  You dont get to make choices for me, or my children. This is still America.
Yeah, you're just wrong, apart from being offensive as hell. We have plenty of laws here in America that provide for children's safety regardless of what the parent thinks is right. See: those Christian Scientists who got charged with manslaughter when they refused medical help in lieu of praying for their kid, who died. Do you really think a parent should have a right to kill their child? To recklessly endanger them? To endanger other people? There are plenty of people out there who simply can't be vaccinated for medical reasons or for whom vaccinations don't take. Antivaxxers are making a selfish and dangerous decision that impacts plenty of people apart from themselves or their poor children.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2015/01/28/measles-is-spreading-and-kids-might-die-sue-parents-who-didnt-vaccinate-absolutely/#2a29f3ad4a01
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2015/02/open-letter-parent-unvaccinated-child-measles-exposure
http://reason.com/blog/2015/07/08/immune-compromised-woman-dies-of-measles

Anyway, we're veering way off topic here, so this will be my last post on this. If you want to continue the debate, I'd suggest posting an OffTopic thread on it.

Kitsune

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2016, 06:35:16 AM »
My body, my right. My childs body, my right. Take your medical Nazi thinking to China, where they approve of that crap.  You dont get to make choices for me, or my children. This is still America.
Yeah, you're just wrong, apart from being offensive as hell. We have plenty of laws here in America that provide for children's safety regardless of what the parent thinks is right. See: those Christian Scientists who got charged with manslaughter when they refused medical help in lieu of praying for their kid, who died. Do you really think a parent should have a right to kill their child? To recklessly endanger them? To endanger other people? There are plenty of people out there who simply can't be vaccinated for medical reasons or for whom vaccinations don't take. Antivaxxers are making a selfish and dangerous decision that impacts plenty of people apart from themselves or their poor children.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2015/01/28/measles-is-spreading-and-kids-might-die-sue-parents-who-didnt-vaccinate-absolutely/#2a29f3ad4a01
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2015/02/open-letter-parent-unvaccinated-child-measles-exposure
http://reason.com/blog/2015/07/08/immune-compromised-woman-dies-of-measles

Anyway, we're veering way off topic here, so this will be my last post on this. If you want to continue the debate, I'd suggest posting an OffTopic thread on it.

Um, not to pile onto the bandwagon, but, quick correction: Your body, your right. Your child's body, THEIR right. Your RESPONSIBILITY to ensure care. Which is why you don't, say, have the right to tattoo your toddler's face, but you do have the right to tattoo your own.

You have a RESPONSIBILITY to ensure the best care possible for your child. This includes getting access to medical treatment when needed, education (homeschooled or not, whatever - while I have personal opinions on that, I'll apply those to my own kid), food, etc. But the limit to your rights end where your kid's right begins. Let's not conflate the two  - they're separate, because you're separate people.

justajane

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #66 on: January 28, 2016, 07:00:11 AM »
I think within reason you as a parent get to make decisions about the health of your child, even if they are terrible choices that display a lack of understanding of science (and common sense - to go back to the title of the thread). I'm not really for forcible vaccination or forced health care. The only time I think the state should step in and override the parents is if the life of the child is directly at risk, i.e. a parent refusing a surgery to remove an inflamed appendix. Or a parent refusing antibiotics if a child has sepsis.

BUT, despite what you claim OP, anyone's decision not to vaccinate their child can have a direct adverse effect on those around them. If, say, someone doesn't want to vaccinate their child, I don't want them in a pediatrician's waiting room with newborns and my 20 month old child who is not yet fully vaccinated. And even my older kids who are fully vaccinated can be at risk. Herd immunity isn't infallible, especially when vaccination rates dip below 95%, which they are currently in many, many areas.

The verdict on vaccinations is not out, but in other things, you have to account for differences in medical opinion. I personally didn't circumcise my three boys, because I don't think it is medically necessary. But I'm not one of those intactivists who think those who make a different decision are terrible people. Most had medical reasons and didn't do it just so they could look like Daddy. FWIW, most anti-vaxxers I know personally also don't circumcise. They also eschew epidurals, sometimes hospital births, and elevate breastfeeding and attachment parenting to a pretty extreme degree. Some homeschool, or if they don't, put their kid in parochial school that's either religious or focused on some sort of Montessori-based learning. YMMV. 

Racer X

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2016, 07:40:40 AM »
Our newest cat is the first clawed one Mr. Mandalay and I have had.  He has a scratching post and some pads, which he does use, but he's taken a liking to our three living room chairs.  Two of them have fairly sturdy fabric and therefore can stand up to Poe claws.  The other one, however, is probably going to have to get the vinegar treatment.  As for the counters, I just wipe them down before doing anything.  Keeping cats off counters is a battle I know I can't win, alas.
I LOVE cats but I don't want them on my counters...ever!  They can share my pillow though.  :-)

I was thinking about this post this morning.  I will get frustrated when my cat gets up on the kitchen counter, but in the morning when he brings his litter covering paws up to my face to check to see if I'm still alive and notify me it's time for kitty breakfast, I think it's cute.  Who is training who here?

SweetTPi

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2016, 09:27:19 AM »
I really do not get you people. 

If you vaccinate your child, your child will be protected.  If an unvaccinated third world kid happens into your little fully vaccinated group, it will be that kid, not yours, who gets sick.  The vaccinated group is supposed to be protected, right?


Except that there are people in the community for whom vaccination is not possible, or doesn't work. People like children having chemotherapy, who can't have vaccinations. People like tiny newborn babies, who don't have an immune system developed enough for immunisations to be effective yet. People who are taking immunosuppressants, for whom vaccination is pointless because they don't seroconvert. The tricky thing with these people is that the reason they can't get vaccinated is the same reason why they are most at risk from preventable diseases.


Sometimes even healthy people who were vaccinated can be vulnerable, and they have no idea. 

I was vaccinated as a child with the MMR vaccine, and life went on.  As a college intern, I worked in an vaccine production area, and it was policy that everyone had to be tested to make sure that they were protected.  My titer (measure of antibody protection) came back negative for measles, and positive for mumps and rubella.  I was completely vulnerable to measles, and was only protected by herd immunity.  So, even though I had gotten the vaccine I was not protected if I came into contact with someone sick.

Kitsune

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2016, 09:54:12 AM »
I really do not get you people. 

If you vaccinate your child, your child will be protected.  If an unvaccinated third world kid happens into your little fully vaccinated group, it will be that kid, not yours, who gets sick.  The vaccinated group is supposed to be protected, right?


Except that there are people in the community for whom vaccination is not possible, or doesn't work. People like children having chemotherapy, who can't have vaccinations. People like tiny newborn babies, who don't have an immune system developed enough for immunisations to be effective yet. People who are taking immunosuppressants, for whom vaccination is pointless because they don't seroconvert. The tricky thing with these people is that the reason they can't get vaccinated is the same reason why they are most at risk from preventable diseases.


Sometimes even healthy people who were vaccinated can be vulnerable, and they have no idea. 

I was vaccinated as a child with the MMR vaccine, and life went on.  As a college intern, I worked in an vaccine production area, and it was policy that everyone had to be tested to make sure that they were protected.  My titer (measure of antibody protection) came back negative for measles, and positive for mumps and rubella.  I was completely vulnerable to measles, and was only protected by herd immunity.  So, even though I had gotten the vaccine I was not protected if I came into contact with someone sick.

Most vaccines have a 'failure' rate, which is the purpose of herd immunity (and the assumption of herd immunity is part of how vaccine schedules are calculated). Using the HPV vaccine, since I worked on the development of it and it's the one I'm most familiar with, and using the Quebec vaccination schedule:
- The manufacturer reccommends 3 doses
- The government schedule is 2 doses
- Why? Partially because, at a 95% efficacy rate, the second vaccine will have immunized A HIGH ENOUGH NUMBER that the people for who NEITHER dose of the vaccine 'worked' will still be protected. In the case of something like HPV, which is sexually transmitted, that's pretty great. For something that's airborne or highly contageous, you want a higher rate of protection. The goal is to immunize enough people to stop the spread of the disease and eventually eradicate it, not to ensure that every single person can never ever catch it.

If suddenly 10% of the population (or more!) don't vaccinate, you're messing with those rates, and compromising the safety of those who cannot be vaccinated (too young/immunocompromised/etc) or for who the vaccine didn't work (IN ADDITION to compromising your own kid's health).

Additionally, some vaccines 'wear off' - think the whooping cough vaccine, which has a high effectiveness rate in the first year or two after vaccination, and the protection lowers year after year (which is why an adult booster is recommended, ESPECIALLY when around children under 2 months who are not yet vaccinated, FYI to adults reading  this - whooping cough SUCKS, and can have major complications). Public vaccination schedules rely on herd immunity to ensure that most adults are protected even without the booster. However, if you've got 10% unvaccinated kids and 10% of kids for who the vaccine didn't work wandering about infecting people, then adults need way more boosters than we're getting. Notice how rates of whooping cough have gone up? Yeah. That.

zephyr911

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2016, 09:56:43 AM »
If parents dont want this school program or choose to homeschool or not vaccinate
Full stop.

Not vaccinating your kids is not a choice made in a vacuum. The trend toward making that choice is already increasing child fatalities in the places where it's popular.

Ignorance, in and of itself, is a right. But a choice that puts one's kids and others (the ones actually medically unable to be vaccinated, for example) is a fucking crime and should be treated as such.

ginastarke

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2016, 10:49:20 AM »
About the water bottles:
 I LOVE my Hydroflask 40 ounce. The only reason I've had to replace it was my bicycle was stolen with my old hydro on it.  I'm convinced that holding the heat and aroma in makes it the best teapot I'll ever have.

mm1970

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2016, 10:54:19 AM »
I really do not get you people. 

Logic has gone out the window and you just spew this nonsense like it is true. Do you hear yourself in the below statement? 

"If someone decides not to vaccinate and their child gets the illness AND SPREADS IT, it can affect much more than their own family."

People do repeat this over and over.  But think a minute.

If you vaccinate your child, your child will be protected.  If an unvaccinated third world kid happens into your little fully vaccinated group, it will be that kid, not yours, who gets sick.  The vaccinated group is supposed to be protected, right?

In any case, you should do for YOUR kids, what you deem best. Just like every other parent.
California has had more than one resurgence in whooping cough, which is often fatal to infants. Who cannot be vaccinated until starting at 2 months.

Plus there are children who are unable to be vaccinated.  These children REQUIRE herd immunity to protect them.

You don't understand that?  Really?  Someone's unvaccinated child has a bad cough, goes to the doctor, infects a one-week old baby there for his first appointment with whooping cough.  The newborn dies.  WTF?

JR

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2016, 02:06:19 PM »
Not all men are okay without circumcision. My husband said that there were two men he knew in the navy that had to have the procedure done as an adult. Not at all fun.  He said that afterward, they were given a can of spray cold to stop any erection before the stitches break. He said these guys would start yellng and drop trou right there and spray cold themselves.  He was ADAMANT that our son be circumcsed as an infant so he would never risk going thru this awful thing as an adult.
Alternatively he could avoid joining the navy, IF he has to have the procedure as an adult and he finds the presence of sailors causes spontaneous erections

Evidently circumcision was just gaining popularity among Christians during World War II and many sailors opted for voluntary circumcision because it came with three days of bed rest.

My friends who joined the Air Force all opted to have their wisdom teeth removed during basic training for the same reason.


We didn't have our son circumcised. When we told the doctor we didn't want to have it done he told us that it was a great choice because it was just a cosmetic procedure anyway.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 02:14:19 PM by JR »

MrsDinero

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2016, 02:30:37 PM »
If you vaccinate your child, your child will be protected.  If an unvaccinated third world kid happens into your little fully vaccinated group, it will be that kid, not yours, who gets sick.  The vaccinated group is supposed to be protected, right?

Not quite.

Vaccines protect the majority of the people who get them.  There are instances in which someone with a weaker immune system could still potentially get sick even though they have been vaccinated or due to other reasons cannot be vaccinated.  This is where the herd  immunity comes in. 

If there are 20 people in a "herd" and 1 person has a weak immune system.  This 1 person maybe cannot receive a vaccine, however if the other 19 people are vaccinated, then the chances of that 1 person getting the diseases everyone else has been vaccinated against is very very small.

Take this same herd but decrease the number of people who can be vaccinated but are not.  The chances of them and that 1 person with the weak immune system goes up dramatically.  Basically it is thinning the herd.

Vaccines are designed to protect you, your neighbor, the cashier at the grocery store, your grandma, etc.

Some of the types of people who cannot receive vaccines are:
-People with weak immune systems
-People on chemotherapy treatment whose immune system is weakened
-People with HIV
- Newborn babies who are too young to be vaccinated
- Elderly people
- Most people are currently in the hospital
- A pregnant woman cannot receive some vaccines
- Some highly allergic people

cloudsail

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2016, 02:43:10 PM »
I've always thought this was a short and concise summary of how people feel about the anti-vaxxers:

Quote
In my practice you will vaccinate and you will vaccinate on time. You will not get your own "spaced-out" schedule that increases your child's risk of illness or adverse event. I will not have measles-shedding children sitting in my waiting room. I will answer all your questions about vaccine and present you with facts, but if you will not vaccinate then you will leave my practice. I will file a CPS report (not that they will do anything) for medical neglect, too.

I have patients who are premature infants with weak lungs and hearts. I have kids with complex congenital heart disease. I have kids who are on chemotherapy for acute lymphoblastic leukemia who cannot get all of their vaccines. In short, I have patients who have true special needs and true health issues who could suffer severe injury or death because of your magical belief that your kid is somehow more special than other children and that what's good for other children is not good for yours. This pediatrician is not putting up with it.

Never have, never will.

ketchup

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2016, 03:09:31 PM »
I've always thought this was a short and concise summary of how people feel about the anti-vaxxers:

Quote
In my practice you will vaccinate and you will vaccinate on time. You will not get your own "spaced-out" schedule that increases your child's risk of illness or adverse event. I will not have measles-shedding children sitting in my waiting room. I will answer all your questions about vaccine and present you with facts, but if you will not vaccinate then you will leave my practice. I will file a CPS report (not that they will do anything) for medical neglect, too.

I have patients who are premature infants with weak lungs and hearts. I have kids with complex congenital heart disease. I have kids who are on chemotherapy for acute lymphoblastic leukemia who cannot get all of their vaccines. In short, I have patients who have true special needs and true health issues who could suffer severe injury or death because of your magical belief that your kid is somehow more special than other children and that what's good for other children is not good for yours. This pediatrician is not putting up with it.

Never have, never will.
That is great.  All this anti-vax BS has to be incredibly frustrating for doctors.  It's essentially undoing one of the largest triumphs of modern medicine and causing a depressing amount of preventable suffering and death.

There was one study published that linked autism to vaccinations.  Except that it was bullshit.  The journal that published the study retracted it in 2010, and the author of the research paper was found to have manipulated data and done all kinds of shady things, and was then barred from practicing medicine in the UK.

justajane

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2016, 03:50:26 PM »
I've always thought this was a short and concise summary of how people feel about the anti-vaxxers:

Quote
In my practice you will vaccinate and you will vaccinate on time. You will not get your own "spaced-out" schedule that increases your child's risk of illness or adverse event. I will not have measles-shedding children sitting in my waiting room. I will answer all your questions about vaccine and present you with facts, but if you will not vaccinate then you will leave my practice. I will file a CPS report (not that they will do anything) for medical neglect, too.

I have patients who are premature infants with weak lungs and hearts. I have kids with complex congenital heart disease. I have kids who are on chemotherapy for acute lymphoblastic leukemia who cannot get all of their vaccines. In short, I have patients who have true special needs and true health issues who could suffer severe injury or death because of your magical belief that your kid is somehow more special than other children and that what's good for other children is not good for yours. This pediatrician is not putting up with it.

Never have, never will.

I can see why doctors are frustrated, but I don't really appreciate this approach. Eight years ago with my first, I was one of those parents who spaced out her vaccinations. Obviously now I know that was not necessary, but at the time, I was trying to come to grips with it all and this made sense to me at the time. Alienating parents who want to delay a vaccine by a few weeks is pretty harsh IMO. That was the Sear's delayed vaccine schedule, which I believe even he has now disavowed. 

I just would be careful to not lump those who slightly delay with those who don't vaccinate at all. The goal is to get kids vaccinated. I just worry that wholesale rejecting delayers will turn them into anti-vaxxers. But yes, parents who reject vaccination entirely should then be rejected from a practice. 

rockstache

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2016, 03:53:48 PM »
This is the second thread today that I have seen Kat57 post some flame spray in and then never return to. Maybe just a troll?

Kat57

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2016, 06:44:37 PM »
No, actually, I am not a troll. I started this thread to discuss hillarious things people do and say with their money.

I have no idea how this devolved into a vaccination diatribe. We are never going to agree.  So be it.

Sorry I could not post back immediately but I take my best friend for all day chemo and am too played out to worry about any internet traffic. 

Primm

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2016, 07:16:00 PM »
No, actually, I am not a troll. I started this thread to discuss hillarious things people do and say with their money.

I have no idea how this devolved into a vaccination diatribe. We are never going to agree.  So be it.

Sorry I could not post back immediately but I take my best friend for all day chemo and am too played out to worry about any internet traffic.

Oh, the irony...

I'm sorry about your friend. That truly does suck.

galliver

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2016, 08:36:42 PM »
My 74 year old friend explained that she or her husband have never been able to save ANY money for retirement because whenever they went and tried to sign up for 401k at their work, THEY WANTED MONEY FOR THAT so they didnt do it.  I was speechless when she expressed her indignation at them trying to rip her off this way...

So, I thought this was hilarious and shared it with my bf. He didn't think it was quite as hilarious, and during the ensuing discussion about whether this was ridiculous, I realized that at 74yo, this lady was born in 1942 and came of age in the 50s and 60s, when defined benefit plans (pensions) were common (25% of just *private* sector employees covered in 1950 and 45% in 1970) and 401k/tax-advantaged defined contribution plans didn't *exist* yet, in fact not until she was 36 was section 401(k) added and she was in her 40s+ when defined contribution plans really came into vogue in the 80s and 90s. And while I totally believe that it would have been smart for her to look into what all this means, it's also pretty understandable that her worldview may have been set by how pensions worked in  her youth (I'm assuming a bit here) and it just seemed *wrong* that the company wanted to take *her* money to put it into retirement when they *should* be doing it themselves! (I think I've heard that these days many pension plans require employee contribution similar to defined contribution plans? But I get the sense that historically this was different; could be wrong). Anyway, made me think about where she might be coming from; older people have trouble accepting new technologies, and I don't think new retirement plans are that different...

rockstache

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2016, 08:42:04 PM »

No, actually, I am not a troll. I started this thread to discuss hillarious things people do and say with their money.

I have no idea how this devolved into a vaccination diatribe. We are never going to agree.  So be it.

Sorry I could not post back immediately but I take my best friend for all day chemo and am too played out to worry about any internet traffic.

Ok then sorry for calling you a troll. I don't care to debate vaccinations, I was really just commenting on the contentious tone of the couple of posts I saw. They came across kind of harsh, but maybe you were just stressed out.

I'm sorry about your friend.

woopwoop

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2016, 09:12:29 PM »
They came across kind of harsh
What, you mean calling someone a Nazi and telling them to "go back to China"? lol, yeah, that's trolling, intentional or otherwise.

cloudsail

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2016, 09:34:52 PM »
Wait, the OP has a best friend on chemo, with a compromised immune system, and she doesn't support universal vaccinations??

I...don't....understand....people.....

thingamabobs

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #85 on: January 31, 2016, 01:13:54 AM »
But back on track, what totally foolish money issues are going on around you? 

Someone I know drives herself home, then calls the ambulance to take her to the emergency room because she doesnt want to wait in line. People in ambulances get seen immediately. In my town, you can buy ambulance insurance for $50 yearly so you are covered if you need it. But somehow, the convenience call is extreme. What if someone REALLY needs it and this person is using it to avoid the wait time.

Sorry to break it to your friend but not all ambulances get seen right away. Oh, you came for a toothache? Please have a seat in the waiting room while we treat the heart attacks, asthma, strokes... I'm surprised it's only $50/year. And how do they get home afterwards?

Kat57

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #86 on: January 31, 2016, 10:33:07 AM »
Well, my town is not very big so our one hospital is only 10 minutes from anywhere in town.

I guess that the $50 annual subscription works out because most people don't need the ambulance that year. If you subscribe, it also covers air lifting by plane or chopper to the other hospitals if needed.

My friend doing chemo is from a medical family.  Her big problem, is that with no immune system, she must not be given any vaccines or it could kill her.  So far, we are doing okay with her program.  It takes all day, and she is sick for 5 days after, but it buys her regular life and health for the other 3 weeks of the month.

I hope we can get this back on track talking about money, on this money forum.

Regarding my 70+ year old friend, I think yes, it is true that there used to be pensions, and defined contribution is a different mindset. That said, when you spend every cent you make with wild abandon in your 20s, nobody thinks it odd. In your 30s, they think you imprudent. In your 40s, people think you clueless. In your 50s, you are foolish. In your 60s, still spending every cent is hopeless.

At some point in the 50 work years between 20 and 70, every individual has the responsibility to consider their own finances and retirement plans. It is not like it came up on you overnight. I have been talking to her about planning for at least 25 years.  But to save, you have to change your eating out at restaurants 6 times a week and your QVC jewerly habits. 

You have a good heart for crediting her age to not knowing. But I even remember her long dead mother preaching frugality at her. And mom had saved, had nice investments that gave her comfort in old age. I wish there was something I could do to help her.  If you have any ideas, I would appreciate it.


galliver

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #87 on: February 01, 2016, 02:51:37 PM »
Regarding my 70+ year old friend, I think yes, it is true that there used to be pensions, and defined contribution is a different mindset. That said, when you spend every cent you make with wild abandon in your 20s, nobody thinks it odd. In your 30s, they think you imprudent. In your 40s, people think you clueless. In your 50s, you are foolish. In your 60s, still spending every cent is hopeless.

At some point in the 50 work years between 20 and 70, every individual has the responsibility to consider their own finances and retirement plans. It is not like it came up on you overnight. I have been talking to her about planning for at least 25 years.  But to save, you have to change your eating out at restaurants 6 times a week and your QVC jewerly habits. 

You have a good heart for crediting her age to not knowing. But I even remember her long dead mother preaching frugality at her. And mom had saved, had nice investments that gave her comfort in old age. I wish there was something I could do to help her.  If you have any ideas, I would appreciate it.

Thanks for that. Unfortunately, I have no suggestions. I have tried to convince my grandmother of things before and had no success, only frustration. Unless you are willing to just step in and take care of her, doesn't seem like a lot you can do... I do agree with you that if you think seriously enough about saving for retirement to go down to the HR office but decide the company system is a ripoff...wouldn't you at least set some money aside?

My friend doing chemo is from a medical family.  Her big problem, is that with no immune system, she must not be given any vaccines or it could kill her.  So far, we are doing okay with her program.  It takes all day, and she is sick for 5 days after, but it buys her regular life and health for the other 3 weeks of the month.

I'm sorry to keep this going off-track, and trust me I say this with good intentions: I think you misunderstand how the immune system works. I am not a medical professional, but this article states the exact opposite of what you said, that most vaccinations (which use dead germs) are in fact recommended for immunocompromised patients although they may be ineffective because there is a weak or no immune system to mount a response and create antibodies, which is the desired outcome. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/421487_6 Here's more on the immune system as a whole: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072548/ Of course, we here have virtually no medical information on your friend, and she probably has good medical reasons not to get vaccinated, or she has had all the possible/relevant ones. But this is the general information. [And I'm leaving my opinions on vaccination-related legislation out of this.]

Lyssa

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2016, 10:17:06 AM »
I was being somewhat disingenuous when I said this would factor into my decision to not have another cat. I don't ever want a cat again because I'm done having cats. Three kids is enough. Having said that, the current climate regarding declawing just confirms my decision.

The main reason people are against it is because #1 it is a form of partial amputation. It's not just the claws that get taken but a portion of the bone itself and #2 if done improperly it can cause lifelong pain. I personally have never seen a cat with lifelong pain from it, though, so I'm not sure how common this is.

I have noticed my older, declawed cat does hobble quite a bit. It's hard to know if his arthritis was exacerbated by the declawing.

I can grant that it should be a last resort, while still admitting that I don't have the energy or inclination to constantly train a cat not to scratch things or to only scratch one thing. After all, this is wired instinct we are talking about here. I think anti-declawers need to be comfortable with the idea that less cats will get adopted and more cats might be sent back to the shelter and possibly euthanized. It's just an unfortunate reality.

I do think it's interesting that spaying and neutering isn't equally maligned or at least questioned. Of course it has a more demonstrable benefit in that it keeps the population lower. In hindsight, our cat didn't really need to be castrated (I mean neutered), since he has never escaped and would have never procreated. But we did it anyway.

This is just a (semi-controversial) aside, but I've also wondered if people who are so adamantly against declawing at least have reservations about circumcision. I know there are some peripheral health benefits of the latter procedure, but the same argument against circumcision (namely that most of Europe doesn't do it because it is considered mutilation) is used in anti-declawing rhetoric.

I would never declaw my cats and it's even illegal where I live. Hence, nobody ever got used to declawed cats. I do trim the nails of my cats, mostly to prevent excessive damage should one ever hurt the other (has not happened so far but I've heard horrible stories about lost eyes...). When trimming a cat's nails you learn (or should have learned before picking up the clipper) that part of any claw is 'dead' and comparable to fingernails but that the upper part contains soft marrow and can even bleed when cut into. And that's just the visible part of the claw. Declawing removes the whole first joint of the cat's fingers.

Spaying and neuturing is not comparable. With outdoor cats it's necessary to avoid two litters per year and indoor cats are safed from being constantly stressed by their hormones without ever getting the chance to act on their instincts. Female cats that are constantly in heat without ever getting pregnant are at high risk for ovarian and endometrical cancer.

Circumcision is unnecessary in most cases and adult men who got circumcised frequently report a decreased sensitivity and being less satisfied with their sex life. Of course somebody circumcised as an infant cannot compare and is not going to miss anything but I still think that the overwhelming majority of rational arguments points in the 'unnecessary and possibly harmful direction. And 'it always has been done' is NOT a rational argument.

Lyssa

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #89 on: February 02, 2016, 10:36:58 AM »
I really do not get you people. 

Logic has gone out the window and you just spew this nonsense like it is true. Do you hear yourself in the below statement? 

"If someone decides not to vaccinate and their child gets the illness AND SPREADS IT, it can affect much more than their own family."

People do repeat this over and over.  But think a minute.

If you vaccinate your child, your child will be protected.  If an unvaccinated third world kid happens into your little fully vaccinated group, it will be that kid, not yours, who gets sick.  The vaccinated group is supposed to be protected, right?

In any case, you should do for YOUR kids, what you deem best. Just like every other parent.
California has had more than one resurgence in whooping cough, which is often fatal to infants. Who cannot be vaccinated until starting at 2 months.

Plus there are children who are unable to be vaccinated.  These children REQUIRE herd immunity to protect them.

You don't understand that?  Really?  Someone's unvaccinated child has a bad cough, goes to the doctor, infects a one-week old baby there for his first appointment with whooping cough.  The newborn dies.  WTF?

Or in case of measles: gets a bad case of measles, then gets better, then a few years later exhibits strange symptoms and developmental delays, then is diagnosed with SSPE, then slowly is wasting away and dies.

Hurray for parental authority and liberty!

Germany has quite an active scene of anti-vaccers and they oppose the MMR vaccine the hardest. What has recently stabilized vaccination rates have been people willing to go public with their SSPE cases and their terminally ill children. I'm not sure what's worse: having brought something like this onto your child or knowing that some idiot sitting next to you at the pediatrician's office eight years ago has done that.

Btw: one out of 10,000 people infected with measles get SSPE. If measles was a vaccine it would have been (rightfully) banned for this alone.

galliver

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #90 on: February 03, 2016, 12:02:25 PM »
Or in case of measles: gets a bad case of measles, then gets better, then a few years later exhibits strange symptoms and developmental delays, then is diagnosed with SSPE, then slowly is wasting away and dies.

Hurray for parental authority and liberty!

Germany has quite an active scene of anti-vaccers and they oppose the MMR vaccine the hardest. What has recently stabilized vaccination rates have been people willing to go public with their SSPE cases and their terminally ill children. I'm not sure what's worse: having brought something like this onto your child or knowing that some idiot sitting next to you at the pediatrician's office eight years ago has done that.

Btw: one out of 10,000 people infected with measles get SSPE. If measles was a vaccine it would have been (rightfully) banned for this alone.

This may be of interest to you. The results of a recent study suggest that measles infection (but not vaccine!) "erases" the body's immunity to other diseases, so the child/person gets sick more in the few years after measles to re-develop immunity to those pathogens: http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/05/07/404963436/scientists-crack-a-50-year-old-mystery-about-the-measles-vaccine. So much for the erroneous "natural immunity is better" argument...

Lyssa

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #91 on: February 04, 2016, 03:34:07 AM »
Or in case of measles: gets a bad case of measles, then gets better, then a few years later exhibits strange symptoms and developmental delays, then is diagnosed with SSPE, then slowly is wasting away and dies.

Hurray for parental authority and liberty!

Germany has quite an active scene of anti-vaccers and they oppose the MMR vaccine the hardest. What has recently stabilized vaccination rates have been people willing to go public with their SSPE cases and their terminally ill children. I'm not sure what's worse: having brought something like this onto your child or knowing that some idiot sitting next to you at the pediatrician's office eight years ago has done that.

Btw: one out of 10,000 people infected with measles get SSPE. If measles was a vaccine it would have been (rightfully) banned for this alone.

This may be of interest to you. The results of a recent study suggest that measles infection (but not vaccine!) "erases" the body's immunity to other diseases, so the child/person gets sick more in the few years after measles to re-develop immunity to those pathogens: http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/05/07/404963436/scientists-crack-a-50-year-old-mystery-about-the-measles-vaccine. So much for the erroneous "natural immunity is better" argument...

I wasn't aware of that. Thanks, I'll spread the info!

justajane

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #92 on: February 07, 2016, 09:19:15 AM »
That is just torture for human convenience.

And also why I and many others will never have a cat again once my current one passes away of old age. I wonder if there is a correlation between the decreasing acceptance of front claw removal and increased need for euthanasia of cats in shelters? There may not be, but while I don't want to be cruel to a living creature, I have had cats with front claws in the past and it was a royal pain in the ass. Never again.

To derail a derailed thread even more, I come back to express one more reason I don't want to ever have another cat again: because I don't want to experience the pain I am feeling right now ever again. He died next to me last night. The depth of my feeling has really taken me by surprise. We've lost two family members this year, but somehow this is worse. Probably because, while he was not a child, my feelings toward him were like what I feel towards my children. He's a tiny creature that I cared for and protected for 13 years. My husband cared for him for eighteen years. It's a terrible feeling.

Uturn

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2016, 09:56:30 AM »
Well, crap JustaJane.  I'm sorry to hear that.  A cat that makes 18 years had a great life. 

Cassie

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #94 on: February 07, 2016, 12:51:41 PM »
Jane, I am so sorry for your loss. We have rescued dogs for years and this is always the hardest part. Right now we have 4 old dogs between 10-18. However, I read once that you honor your pet when you adopt an animal that does not have a home and that your baby is at the Rainbow Bridge smiling at you. Please just rescue one-it's such a small deed.  Hugs:))

LeRainDrop

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #95 on: February 07, 2016, 12:56:24 PM »
Oh, Jane, I'm very sorry for your loss.  Our furbabies really are family.  I hope it brings you some comfort to know that you gave yours a wonderful life filled with love.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #96 on: February 07, 2016, 01:39:06 PM »
Thinking of you, Jane! I'm so sorry. Are your kids taking it hard?* I do think that the pain of losing a living thing that you have been taking care of is different than other kinds of loss. My father never wanted a cat but we three kids wore him down. Well, of course we all grew up and moved out and he was the one taking care of the elderly cat. I have seen/heard him cry only twice in my life: at my sister's wedding** and when the cat died. He went to let her in one morning (indoor/outdoor cat) and she had died in the night.

(*Officious unsolicited librarian book recommendation: The Tenth Good Thing About Barney by Judith Viorst is a lovely picture book about the loss of a cat.)

(**Yes, I am also married, but he did not cry at my wedding. She was both the oldest and his favorite.)

iris lily

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #97 on: February 07, 2016, 03:00:33 PM »
Jane, sorry about your kitty. Another little kitty in kitty heaven after a life well lived. Good for him, but sad for his family..

justajane

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Re: Most friends and family have no money and less common sense.
« Reply #98 on: February 07, 2016, 03:09:56 PM »
Thanks, everyone. The kids initially took it very hard. He had been declining for days, had stopped eating anything and barely drinking for four days. We were going to take him to be euthanized today but he went on his own. I slept on the couch the past few nights - with him at the ground right by my head. I patted and reassured him throughout the nights. After he died around midnight, we took him away to the basement so that the kids wouldn't come down and see him dead like that. Well, I was lucky to see them turn on the light at 5:50 a.m. and was able to come down. They were already wandering around the house looking for him. I had to start the grieving process all over again! I didn't anticipate that, and it's certainly very hard to see your kids sobbing, especially over something so profound that you are also feeling so deeply.

They wrote him some nice notes about how they were going to miss him, and we buried them with him in the backyard. Initially I wanted to cremate him, but I gave the kids the choice and they liked the idea of putting him in the backyard. It was actually really, really nice. Due to having to be a church for responsibilities, we weren't able to bury him for 12 hours. That part was terrible, knowing his poor body was in the house. The unbearable grief has lifted slightly since we put him in his final resting place.

In many respects, I have been wishing to be pet-free for a while because of all the stress of three young kids. But now that the time has come, I am of course very torn up about it. I will miss the routines associated with a cat, even as I recognize that we are not in a place to have another any time soon.

@frugalparagon, After this, I can certainly believe it that the loss of a pet is one of the only times you saw your father cry. My husband only cries every few years (at least in front of me), and he's cried at least 3-4 times in the last 12 hours. The only time I recall him crying like this was when our sister in law died of cancer in her thirties 10 years ago. 

Yes, losing a pet, especially one who has been in your life for decades, is a profound loss.