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Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: GizmoTX on December 02, 2014, 09:59:23 AM

Title: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: GizmoTX on December 02, 2014, 09:59:23 AM
Wow, no wonder college costs & student loans are exploding:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/education/most-college-students-dont-earn-degree-in-4-years-study-finds.html?_r=0

Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: odput on December 02, 2014, 10:08:02 AM
It took me four and a half years, by that's because my program had 3 semesters of internships built into it, so 4.5 years is technically on time, although it would miss the criteria of this article.

Now, that's not to say that 81% of college attendees have this same scenario, but I'd guess that maybe 10% of students (note this is a guess) fall into a similar category
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: BlueMR2 on December 02, 2014, 10:10:19 AM
I took 5 years, my wife took 6.  Honestly, most of the people that I can think of off hand took over 4.  It's pretty typical to work while going to school, and it's really hard to schedule a full load with a typical employer...  Some people get lucky and can make it work, but most can't make the hours fit together.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Posthumane on December 02, 2014, 10:14:40 AM
I also took significantly longer than 4 years, but I don't see that as a massive problem. My four year degree was spread over 5 years due to a slightly lower course load which actually reduced the annual tuition (since you pay by course) and allowed me more time to hold a part time job. Add to that a year and a half of paid internship, and the result was 6.5 years total but no student debt. This would have been a lot more costly had I not be living with parents while going to school.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: netskyblue on December 02, 2014, 10:17:00 AM
I (2002-2004) did it in 2 years at a state university, plus the summer in between high school/college.  I'd taken college classes in high school, took one more gen ed during that interim, and took full course loads, plus winter/summer classes.  I didn't work full time though, only 20 hours a week on campus.

My younger sister (2006-2008) did it in 3 years, one year at a community college which she got for free as valedictorian (I could have done, also, but opted not to), then finished in 2 years at a state university.

My youngest sister (2007-2010) took the full 4 years at a state university.  She double majored.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: RWD on December 02, 2014, 10:20:39 AM
I took 4.25 years because I did a couple internships in between.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Gin1984 on December 02, 2014, 10:28:05 AM
I went to community college then a state school.  To finish the upper requirements took 2.5 years and to be eligible for transfer as a junior took 3 years just by the number of units.  I did take a semester off to work and went part time, both during community college because without any aid I needed to work.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: GizmoTX on December 02, 2014, 12:23:49 PM
I believe the article (citing the study) refers to students who are enrolled in college for more than 4 years, due to light loads, retaking failed courses, transfer from another school, changing majors, required courses not being offered during the final year, and/or not wanting to leave.

To me, taking a break to do co-op semesters, an internship, or to earn more money is not the same thing at all. While there is an opportunity cost to delaying a degree, it can be the difference that allows the degree to happen.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Forcus on December 02, 2014, 12:33:42 PM
My experience is not the normal (if normal is 4 years of school in a dorm at college) but what happened to me was the program requirements were changed halfway through my program. I was lucky to get grandfathered in, otherwise it would have been 4.5 or 5 years. Also the program I was in started cost cutting, offering classes at certain times, and it conflicted with other required classes. I almost had to commute 1.5 hours each way just to get to a 3 hour class but luckily online alternatives were offered. Anyway that was my experience though I bet based on GizmoTX's post it's mostly students' failures that are driving it out.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Beric01 on December 02, 2014, 12:33:52 PM
The only reason I graduated in 4 years was because I started college classes at my community college while still in high school. My two brothers simply graduated from high school a year early, but took 3 years at the community college. It's nearly impossible to get admitted to all your classes in a state school these days.

I also did two internships and was an officer in my academic club, but no summer classes.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: boarder42 on December 02, 2014, 12:45:35 PM
i took 5 years. i took a semester off to go work in my field of study invaluable experience. and i got a minor in business( this was really just a stay in college and have fun semester but hey the state was still paying for it so why not)
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: myteafix on December 02, 2014, 12:51:36 PM
I took four & a half years, but that's because I triple-majored. Thankfully, I had pretty good scholarships, and they even covered that extra semester at the end.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: GizmoTX on December 02, 2014, 12:53:11 PM
It's nearly impossible to get admitted to all your classes in a state school these days.

So if the schools are not providing enough sections or seats, then the resulting extra semester(s) is actually a source of funding for them. That's terrible.

Any university that changes a program should be providing a transition path or grandfather period for those affected.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: austin on December 02, 2014, 12:56:04 PM
I completed my academic requirements in 3 years but had to stay on through a 4th because I was on an ROTC scholarship. My buddy completed his degree in three years and had alreay through-hiked the AT and landed a good job by the time I graduated. My sister changed schools and majors, took a semester off to through-hike the AT, and still graduated in four years.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: zoltani on December 02, 2014, 01:09:01 PM
6.5 years for me. Started at community college while working full time, taking only a couple night classes. Worked at least part time all the way through. Also studied abroad for a year. I do not regret taking so long, and I still think every student should spend a year abroad.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Beric01 on December 02, 2014, 01:22:18 PM
It's nearly impossible to get admitted to all your classes in a state school these days.

So if the schools are not providing enough sections or seats, then the resulting extra semester(s) is actually a source of funding for them. That's terrible.

Any university that changes a program should be providing a transition path or grandfather period for those affected.

Yeah, California state schools are extremely short in funding due to our fiscal incompetence. My brother waited 4 quarters to be admitted into his physics class due to not enough seats.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: mm1970 on December 02, 2014, 01:38:23 PM
I finished in 4. It was a smallish engineering school, and each class after soph year was only offered once.  So - you had no choice of when to take the classes.

One of my roommates took 5 because she got D's in a couple of classes junior year, and basically repeated most of junior year.

I can imagine that larger state schools (think of CA now, specifically) may be harder if you cannot get your classes.

But I'd be ticked off if that meant paying a full tuition.

I also think it's different if you are working and taking fewer classes.  No shame in that.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Albert on December 02, 2014, 01:40:56 PM
I finished my Bs on time (4 years), but proceeded to spend another 9 years in academia before landing my first permanent job. In hindsight I might have done things a bit differently, but I don't regret the journey at all.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: pzxc on December 02, 2014, 02:10:50 PM
I went to college for 3.5 years, and wasn't going to have enough credits to finish on time, and my parents said "well we can pay for the next semester but that's it", so I had a choice of either finishing and using student loans to cover the gap, or just dropping out.

I dropped out.  I don't regret it, but I'm a programmer so it's perhaps the easiest field to be in as far as proving your worth based on your skills and not your education. So I never felt it held me back not finishing that degree.  But many other fields it's not as easy to prove your own self-worth without the pedigree.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: mrbrightside695 on December 02, 2014, 02:24:45 PM
Most of the people I knew that took >4 years did so because they either failed classes and had to retake them, or switched majors and had to make up extra classes (and left some credits unused). I don't think anyone intentionally stayed longer than 4 years because of the extra tuition it would cost - those that wanted to stay on campus just graduated and either started grad school or found a job to pay for living expenses while spending another year on campus.

Personally, I finished in 3.5 years (4, but with 1 semester off for a co-op) with a BS and MS - but I was definitely an outlier amongst my friends.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Lia-Aimee on December 02, 2014, 03:05:52 PM
I took six years but was working full-time at a job in my career of choice at the same time.

That said, I have friends in the 25-27 age range who are still doing their bachelors degree after having reduced classes/stopped/started/changed it a number of times. Some of these were due to extreme financial necessity. Some of these were due to wanting a reduced course load to maintain a social life or the desire to extensively travel; the "extended adolescence" trend hard at work.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Setruss on December 02, 2014, 03:09:50 PM
http://www.purdue.edu/enrollmentmanagement/researchanddata/gradretentionrates.html

I could have graduated in 3.5-4 years. I instead joined a 5-year co-op program with 5 work terms (2 during summers, 3 during normal semesters), took 3 classes over one summer semester, and took a summer off for vacation/ mental health. I'll be graduating in 2016 if I don't fail any classes and can get into all of my required classes. I am taking ~ 17 credit hours every semester and I'll be getting a part time job next semester (10-20 hours), so I'm not taking it easy in college... I also have a 3.92 / 4.0 GPA so far.

Most of my classmates that will not be graduating in 4 years had to retake classes and switched majors. In our major, failing a class can set you a semester behind because of pre-reqs (statics could be the pre-req to 3 classes, so if you fail statics your plans are screwed).
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Pooperman on December 02, 2014, 03:57:11 PM
3.5 years for me. Could have done it in 3 with a bit of luck and if I'd brought my A game. 2.85 GPA partially the result of mono my first semester (C+ on most classes due to missing 6 weeks), partially me not bringing my A game. Got a BS and a minor (135 credits I believe). Came in with something like 16 credits from community college in high school and AP classes (no freshman English wuhoo!).

BS Engineering Physics with minor in History.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: gimp on December 02, 2014, 04:18:11 PM
5 years, including almost two years of co-op. Worth it.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: johnintaiwan on December 02, 2014, 07:58:14 PM
only took me 3 years at OSU (Go Beavs). I took AP classes in high school, did an internship one summer and took a few classes the last summer to finish up. But I was also in a fraternity, did a study abroad for a term, was involved in sports teams and clubs and changed majors twice. I think it is doable in 4 years, but you have to understand how classes are scheduled and what the requirements are for your degree and gen ed classes.

I knew a lot of people who messed up because they didnt pay attention to those details. They only needed a few classes but they were not offered until the next fall. Or maybe they need to take class B but class A is a pre rec so they have to wait another term. Changing majors also seemed to be a problem. I made sure that my first years classes would transfer into any program since I figured I would change my mind on majors (which I did).
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: MrsPete on December 02, 2014, 08:00:36 PM
I was in college for seven years total, but I finished with two degrees and a teaching certificate.  I was also involved in two co-ops and student teaching; the biggest reason, though, was that I was working during the entire experience, and I wasn't able to take as many classes as I could've if I'd not been paying my own way through.  I don't regret it because I graduated without debt, but I wanted something better for my own children.


My daughter, who is currently a college student is on track to graduate in four years, and we've talked about this.  Of her six good girlfriends who headed out to college together, three of them are on track to graduate on time (and two of them are doing a semester abroad).  Here's what she says on the subject: 

- Yes, lots of students don't take enough classes to get them through school in four years.  Some of this may be due to working or family responsibilities, but my daughter tells me that the vast majority of her college friends don't work.  This seems odd to me since when I was in school pretty much everyone worked.  She and I think the vast majority just don't plan well; they've been taking four classes in high school, so they figure that's good for college too -- but, in reality, if you're going to graduate in four years, you need to take 5 classes most semesters. 

- In their first year or two, MANY of her classmates simply didn't grasp the idea that they need to take specific classes to graduate and if they register for the wrong stuff, no one's going to stop them.  After all, in high school, your counselors prevent this from happening.  She's very on top of this kind of thing, and her roommate asked her to help her figure out which science she should take -- my girl said, "Take Class A.  It will work for your major AND it will fulfill a general degree requirement, leaving you more options in future semesters."  The roommate said, "Nah, I really don't want to take either one, but I think Class B will be more interesting." Her faculty advisor signed off on it without question, but then the very next semester she realized that she needed to take Class A anyway!  Wasted classes like that end up costing time.

- In their first year or two, MANY of her classmates simply didn't hurry to register as soon as their classes "opened up".  Rather, they just figured it'd all work out.  My niece did this, and she wasn't able to get into a single one of her major classes in her first semester -- so she registered for a bunch of electives.  Great fun, but not so profitable in terms of progressing towards graduation.  In contrast, a couple times, my daughter has been unable to get into a class . . . but she checks the online schedule like a hawk, and she has ALWAYS been able to make changes.  The best day to look for classes opening up, she says, is the day after tuition is due.  It's very sad that someone didn't pay on time and was dropped from Chem 201 . . . but that now-empty spot is going to go to the person who bothered to check.

- Many of her classmates don't look for ways to optimize their classes; for example, my daughter has taken advantage of the option to take one elective a year pass/fail.  It removes some pressure to do well in one class.  However, she says that some of her friends have been surprised to realize that this is an option.  It makes me want to ask, Why didn't they read all the details provided by their college?   

- Many, if not most, of her friends have changed majors or schools at least once.  Even though it's probably the right choice, this typically costs in terms of time.  Choosing well in the first place could elminate this issue. 

- Many departments have their classes set up in such a way that if you fail a class in the fall, you're not able to pick it up again in spring . . . you have to wait 'til fall again.  This isn't particularly new -- it happened to my husband in his engineering classes back in the 80s, but it's more prevelent now. 

Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Zamboni on December 02, 2014, 08:12:02 PM
Disgraceful, but not surprising.

Aspiring students and parents:  look carefully and seriously at published graduation rates for your options.  Some schools are really 90+% graduated in 4 years while other are under 20%.  It is quite annoying now that 6 year graduation rates are the reported norm, but if even that is low, just go somewhere else. 
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Ynari on December 02, 2014, 09:39:13 PM
Because of my 6 courses worth of AP elective credits, hyper-planning, and choosing a less demanding major I am graduating in 3.3 years. (We're on a trimester system.)  Also my motivation to get-outta-that-place and omg-it's-so-expensive helped trim it down from 4 years.

My school designed their system to be a rigorous 4 year program. Only people who 'game' the system with AP credits or constantly taking the maximum load of courses can graduate early. Anyone who makes a single mistake - like not being able to place into a required class early on because EVERYONE ELSE is competing for them too, or not getting into a class that's only offered once a year - might be pushed into an extra trimester or three.

I am graduating before my brother, who started college 3 years before me. His delay is due to transfers and apparent confusion about the requirements. (I'm not sure if it's his fault, or his advisor's, but there always seems to be one more class he wasn't aware he had to take, or that he didn't do well enough in when he originally took it to count for his major.) 
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: MayDay on December 03, 2014, 10:02:57 AM
For state schools, in the Midwest land grant category anyway, some schools have chosen to limit enrollment to allow everyone to take the classes they need. Others are allowing unlimited enrollment because they need the money.

Some are starting to offer a 4 year guarantee that you can get into all the classes you need. This is a major selling point for some parents, but as noted above there are still lots of ways for a kid to screw it up.

I have a relative in charge of course scheduling at a university, and according to him it's a nightmare. They need more sections of classes than they can fit, especially for labs, so stuff has to get scheduled earlier in the morning and later at night. They lack enough of certain classrooms but the remodeling process takes several years. This relative currently has an office in a hotel room while the on-campus building is being renovated to hold more classrooms and then all the offices will get jammed on the top floor.

But since state funding keeps spiraling downwards, they keep excepting (edit: I can't believe I used the wrong word, I am mortified, it should say accepting!) more kids.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: thepokercab on December 03, 2014, 10:15:56 AM
I finished mine in 4 years, but It could have easily gone longer.  I went into college with 6 hours of AP credit from high school, and then took at least 1 summer course after each spring semester, and sometimes up to two courses. If I hadn't done that, it would have been at least 4.5 years, and maybe 5.   
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Heywood57 on December 03, 2014, 10:33:18 AM
It took me over 5 years because I was working nights, 40+ hours a week,
which allowed me to pay for nearly all the cost.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: skunkfunk on December 03, 2014, 11:36:14 AM
Took me 6 years, full ride no job. Even then I had to complete 37 hours my last 7 months (January - July.)
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Mesmoiselle on December 04, 2014, 07:08:48 AM
Let's see. I did a two year trade school that got me zero degree. Was hired 9months later for the trade. But in the waiting interim thought "why not get an associate's?" But then , half a year into working, realized there was no point and just stopped. The degree would gain me nothing. Then I took a physics class to help me pass a licence exam. Nothing again for another 3 years. Then started back again this fall be cause I finally decided I disliked my line of work and an alternative I actually wanted. Will take me three more semesters at half time to finish the associate but can't afford time off from my ALREADY limited work schedule.

So to get my associates will have taken me 12 semesters of time. which equates to what, 4 years? Just for my associates, spread out over 5 colleges in three different states. I plan to do the bachelor's in just two, however. Master program/trade school lasts two. Ends up being 8 years total.

I'm cool with it, except I wish I'd just persevered and gotten the Associate's at the time rather than play catch up now. But my past self wasn't convinced it'd get me anything. If I wasn't changing careers,my initial thinking would still be true.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Neustache on December 04, 2014, 07:24:06 AM
I was on track to be done in 4.5 years, but I worked a bunch during school.  Then I got married, moved out, and had to work full time and go to school part time.  7 years total for me, and I've never gotten a job due to having a bachelor's degree. 
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: midweststache on December 04, 2014, 11:13:46 AM
3.5 years with a double major. I also worked an average of 10-30 hours (whether or not I was working retail or just tutoring) while in college. I took nine hours of summer classes all three summers while working (unfortunately summer classes were not covered by scholarships). One summer these courses were part of a study abroad trip. I also came in with 12 hours of university credit from taking courses at the local college my senior year of high school, but it was all counted as only "elective" credit at my university (*sigh*).

My university had a flat tuition fee for any amount of hours between 12-17 during the regular semesters. I missed summer registration, so my first semester I was only enrolled for 12 hours (I fought to switch a class to get it up to 13). I felt like I was getting screwed financially, so I enrolled in at least 17/hrs a semester after that, and took 21 hours one semester to make sure I could graduate a semester early (still including student teaching). I could've double-majored/triple-minored if I stayed for the extra semester, but I didn't feel like a couple extra minors was worth it.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: MrsPete on December 04, 2014, 07:33:07 PM
Disgraceful, but not surprising.

Aspiring students and parents:  look carefully and seriously at published graduation rates for your options.  Some schools are really 90+% graduated in 4 years while other are under 20%.  It is quite annoying now that 6 year graduation rates are the reported norm, but if even that is low, just go somewhere else.
Be sure to look at the overall picture.  Here's an example:

At our state flagship university, something like 94% of the students graduate in four years.  Sounds great!  Yet consider the whole picture:  Pretty much every student was in the top 10 at his high school.  They expect every student to come in with at least a semester of AP credits under his belt; thus, these students are really spending more than four years on their degree -- they just did some of it before they were officially college students.  Every student at this unversity is highly academic; that is, they're capable of taking on a heavy class load.  Finally, the majority of the students at this school come from middle class or upper class families who are able to support them financially (or at least who have good credit).  These kids are set up for success!  No wonder such a high percentage finishes on time! 

Keep in mind, too, that LOADS of students begin college . . . but stay only a semester or two.  These students tend to attend the mid-tier or lackluster schools, and they make the didn't-graduate-in-four-years numbers skyrocket. 

Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: MrsSmitty on December 05, 2014, 02:51:52 PM
It took me 5 years. I spent 2 summers and 1 fall semester in internships. And at my school you paid a flat rate for full time and then could take as many credits as you wanted. I took my sweet time getting my engineering degree but threw in enough extra classes to get a business minor and a math minor as well. Sure I had more student loans than I might have had otherwise, but they're paid off now. No regrets.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: soontoberichteacher on December 05, 2014, 04:40:07 PM

At our state flagship university, something like 94% of the students graduate in four years.  Sounds great!  Yet consider the whole picture:  Pretty much every student was in the top 10 at his high school.  They expect every student to come in with at least a semester of AP credits under his belt; thus, these students are really spending more than four years on their degree -- they just did some of it before they were officially college students.  Every student at this unversity is highly academic; that is, they're capable of taking on a heavy class load.  Finally, the majority of the students at this school come from middle class or upper class families who are able to support them financially (or at least who have good credit).  These kids are set up for success!  No wonder such a high percentage finishes on time! 


This sounds like UNC Chapel Hill, where I went. I remember very clearly at orientation when they stressed "We cannot wait to see you at graduation in four years. Not five years, not six. Four." And from what I have heard, you have to basically appeal to stay longer. You can't pick up minors late in your career, etc. But I agree with it to some extent. With budget cuts, classes are super competitive to get into. With a push for kids to graduate in four years, it prevents tons of super seniors from getting early registration and hogging classes that other students need for their majors.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: pagoconcheques on December 06, 2014, 12:56:32 PM
I graduated in 3 1/2 years simply to save money.  I paid my tuition and over a certain number of units the price for a semester no longer increased.  About the time I got my bill for the second semester of my freshman year I did a simple back-of-the-envelope calculation and realized I could save 12.5% of my college costs by taking an additional "free" course every semester just by passing that magic cutoff. 

This approach still works at most colleges.  An added bonus is that you are a semester ahead of your class in the job market. 
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Albert on December 08, 2014, 06:07:22 AM
At our state flagship university, something like 94% of the students graduate in four years.  Sounds great!  Yet consider the whole picture:  Pretty much every student was in the top 10 at his high school.  They expect every student to come in with at least a semester of AP credits under his belt; thus, these students are really spending more than four years on their degree -- they just did some of it before they were officially college students.  Every student at this unversity is highly academic; that is, they're capable of taking on a heavy class load.  Finally, the majority of the students at this school come from middle class or upper class families who are able to support them financially (or at least who have good credit).  These kids are set up for success!  No wonder such a high percentage finishes on time! 

Keep in mind, too, that LOADS of students begin college . . . but stay only a semester or two.  These students tend to attend the mid-tier or lackluster schools, and they make the didn't-graduate-in-four-years numbers skyrocket.

This ilustrates differences in approaches to higher education around the world. For example ETH Zurich (most prestigious institution here) by law has to admit every Swiss applicant who has taken his/her Matura (20% of all teenagers) plus they admit a lot of foreigners too. The solution to this overpopulation is that the graduation rate is purposely made low (as little as 1/3 in some majors). At the end of the first year everyone has to pass the basic test of knowledge with 50% failure rate. Those who don't pass have to drop out or repeat the entire first year.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: JustTrying on December 08, 2014, 10:02:35 PM
I took 3.5 years for a double major. I went to a private college in which all full-time students paid the same amount in tuition if they took anywhere between 12 and 18 credits. We all also had an option to take a January-term class, which was a 2-or-3 week class (I can't remember which) in between Fall and Spring semester. The January class was "free" if you were enrolled as a full-time student for the rest of the academic year. I saved quite a bit of money by taking 18-or-more credits each semester and by always taking a class in January!

Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Left on December 09, 2014, 04:11:36 AM
i took 6 years, between scholarships and grants, i left school with a net of 20k and a job in the field that i studied. just found out this week that the research paper i started got accepted so i'll be 'published' by end of the month.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: JoanOfSnark on December 09, 2014, 06:40:10 AM
I took 5 years, but the 5th was paid for by the honors college of the school I attended, and I used it to get the honors certification for my field. Also 3 unrelated minors, 2 study-abroads, and a semester-long internship. I did burn myself out by the end though (I just started showing up to classes by the end that I hadn't even registered for... it's how I got a year's worth of Irish Gaelic lessons for free, with the professor's permission, because I didn't want to pay for the classes to show up on my transcript when my GPA was good and I was just taking the class for fun). I love learning, so I ended up taking more classes than I was credited with by the end because the hobby wasn't worth the several extra grand to get it added on officially.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: frugalnacho on December 09, 2014, 08:58:28 AM
It took me 5 years because my university is stupid about scheduling.  They had a list of all required classes and recommended that it be done in 4 years, but it was impossible to actually schedule it in anything less than 5 years because of the way they structured the prerequisites.  For example you had to complete 5 prerequisite classes, but they don't offer them over the summer, so you have to take 2 year 1, then 2 year 2, and the final one year 3.  Then you have to take an engineering course (in your 3rd year because you have to take 2 more classes after this one) after meeting those prerequisites, but they only offer it the first semester of the year (when you are taking your final prerequisite for the class).  So you had to wait until your 4th year to take that course, and then you had 2 additional classes (again not offered in the summer) so you had to complete them your 5th year.

It was real stupid and I ended up not even being a full time student my last year because of it.  I think it was intentional to force students to hang around on campus longer than necessary.  We all (the engineering students) brought it up to the administration, but were ignored (like I said, i'm pretty sure they do it intentionally). 
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Zamboni on December 09, 2014, 10:46:20 PM
I agree that differences in the background of the "typical" student who goes to a school does have a huge impact on the graduate rates.  But the institutional attitude and culture about expecting on time graduation and helping students graduate on time also plays a big role. 

For example, I work somewhere now where students are allowed to count very few AP classes towards their degree.  So, they don't make it in "4" because of that.  Most make it in four because they are bright, have good resources, and very importantly graduation in 4 years is the very clearly stated expectation for all students up front. Association with the graduating class year is stressed frequently to students in all communications to them before they even set food on campus, and it remains a source of identity.  Many students even have something like "class of 2017" right under their name in their email autosignature.) Institutional tolerance for falling behind and multiple "do-overs" is very low, and that is coupled with a very strong academic advising focus for students who are struggling to make academic progress.  For example, one single F interim report at mid-term triggers a mandatory advising visit that results in the generation of an action plan for the student, who participates in the generation of the plan. For many gateway classes there are free peer tutors paid for by the University, there are help rooms, there are people on staff to help with setting up time management plans, etc.  Faculty who fail to meet with every single one of their advisees every term and enter appropriate comments in the system do NOT get their supplemental advising funds (yes, there is a lady in a central University office who checks this every term, and she sends out a reminder to faculty that she WILL be checking it every term during the advising period.  She also controls the accounting of the funds.)  A student who tries to pull a no-show in a class or classes will be nagged fairly incessantly by administrators with impressive sounding titles, and if there is evidence of mental health issues or substance abuse, then almost invariably the parents end up in the loop (I'm sure privacy laws are followed, but students often consent to notification of their parents.)  These safety nets help most struggling students turn it around, but students who aren't making sufficient academic progress despite all of these resources are dismissed at the end of their first year (most can and do apply for re-admission after taking a leave of absence.) 

Contrast the above with another place where I have worked.  It is also a fairly highly selective place where all admitted students should have the goods to do well, and AP classes count, so many students come in with a semester or two under their belt.  Technically most students are closer to their 4 year degree when they matriculate than they would be at the aforementioned institution.  It is a very strong school with very highly respected graduates and a strong alumni network.  But, institutional culture and expectations of graduating on time are much weaker.  Students are not encouraged to strongly associate an identity with a certain year of graduation.  Advising is much weaker for most students (no one ever even checked to see if I met with any of the advisees on my list), and if students are failing at mid term, then it is likely they won't have to meet with anyone to discuss it.  Certainly there is no mandatory meeting that is tracked by a central office; the only exception to this is misconduct cases, which do trigger mandatory meetings.  And, the worst part in my opinion, it takes two full years of making essentially zero academic progress for a student to be formally dismissed (there are all kinds of loopholes that students can use to stay "in school" even if they never attend any classes.)  So those students, who are possibly as much as 20-25% of enrollment, take up the "seats" and sap up financial aid that others need to graduate even though they don't actually go to class, making it harder and harder to have enough sections with enough seats for everyone who needs a certain class at a certain time.  And so the average graduation time for the serious students who do go to class continues to get longer and longer.  Crazy.

Sorry for such a long post.  :-)
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Prepube on December 09, 2014, 11:46:59 PM
I took 5 years undergrad, 2 years masters, and 4 years for PhD.  I knew no one, even back in the mid 80s when I was an undergrad, who finished in four years.  I have never understood why everyone feels they must put a time frame on their education.  It's not a "four-year school", it's an education.  It takes some folks a little longer, esp. if they want to complete their education with no debt, as I did.  My sister, who also has a doctorate, blazed through school and graduated with 70k debt. And no job.  I went to state schools and worked my way through, immediately went to work afterwards at one of the places I interned.  We need to shift away from talking about education in terms of how much time it takes to complete... I don't feel like I will ever be done becoming educated, though school has been complete for over 25 years.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: hdatontodo on December 10, 2014, 11:44:33 AM
For those whose parents prepaid a 529, it is certainly worth trying to finish an in-demand degree like Materials Engineering so that you aren't losing the opportunity of making $50K+ per year when you start work. Have to take an extra 6 mos = have $25K+ less income.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Gerard on December 13, 2014, 03:54:36 PM
A lot of my students take more than 4 years to finish. Partly because our programme attracts a lot of people who transfer from other disciplines and thus have extra courses to make up. Partly because tuition is pretty low, so it makes sense to take an extra year to build up your CV by volunteering or working in labs, taking extra courses that prepare you for grad school, etc. I can't say I blame them. University is so easy and fun compared to working full time.

I have a question for folks here, though: don't your universities allow you to go in the summer? Why would people in a hurry even take four years? When I did my second undergrad, I only went full time for two years (transferred a few credits and took 2 courses part time before going FT, but most of it was from taking an overload and going in the summer).
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: RWD on December 13, 2014, 07:16:57 PM
I have a question for folks here, though: don't your universities allow you to go in the summer? Why would people in a hurry even take four years? When I did my second undergrad, I only went full time for two years (transferred a few credits and took 2 courses part time before going FT, but most of it was from taking an overload and going in the summer).

My first summer in college I took one class while working full time. My internships in my third and fourth years were in different cities though, so summer classes weren't really an option.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Lanthiriel on December 13, 2014, 08:03:43 PM
I did my Bachelor's in two years after high school, including taking a full-time summer course load (so, really, it was 5 semesters). I took a few AP classes in high school, but it was doing Washington State's Running Start program in my senior year of high school that gave me the advantage. When I went, you only had to pay for books if you were still in high school (now I think you pay a reduced rate). I already knew which university I wanted to attend (and, frankly, that they would admit me), so I focused on classes that would transfer and knocked out more than a year of pre-reqs. Then I turned around and finished a Masters degree in 18 months.

My husband, on the other hand, graduated with a BS at 30 after two other majors and four other schools.

At the end of the day, I sort of wish I had taken it slower. Sure, I was able to start my "career" earlier, and I'm doing fine, but I think I'd have chosen a different major if I'd done the traditional "find yourself" college experience. My sister will finish her degree right on schedule in June after getting an AA in 1.5 years of community college and attending a university for 2.5 years. She started in one program, but after taking an elective, realized she absolutely loved another one. She was able to combine the two programs and will be graduating with a pretty cool degree. I think I was just so focused on getting it done that I had my blinders up to other opportunities.

Ah well, lesson learned, I suppose.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Reepekg on December 15, 2014, 03:51:02 PM
Most Mustachian thing I ever did: graduated engineering in 3 saving $40k+ while playing an NCAA sport. Same high quality experience for less.

This mostly just works for kids who know exactly what they want already in high school. Even coming in with 26 AP credits, it was a close call with 1 summer course, ~18 credits per semester, and a certain C- in required Transport Phenomena II that was close to setting me back a whole year.

I'd love to present this as a financial option to my (future) kids, but I suspect it is the kind of thing you have to decide for yourself and not have thrust upon you.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Sibley on February 10, 2015, 01:44:58 PM
I went to a private women's college (yes, facepunch). Loved it there and got a great education. Graduated in 4 years, with 150+ credits, and was able to take the CPA exam right away (150 credits are required in almost every state to take the exam). I took 18/19 credits almost every semester, had an AP class transfer in, and did some summer school to get the credits.

Most people in accounting now are doing 5 year programs (Bachelor and Masters) to get the credits for the exam. So all in all, it could have been worse, though I'm still working on the student loans. 3 years until debt free.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: FIreDrill on February 10, 2015, 02:08:49 PM
I will be graduating this spring with a B.S. degree. This is my 6th year but I used scholarships and employer educational assistance to pay for the majority of my college education (that was my goal the entire time).  I'll be graduating with a net worth of about 135k right after I turn 25 in May...  The issue isn't students taking longer than 4 years to graduate, it's students going to college when they don't know what they want to do with their life or how much of a return on investment their education will actually give them.  Sadly, many college decisions students make turn into huge uneducated financial decisions.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: caliq on February 10, 2015, 02:20:29 PM
I will be graduating this spring with a B.S. degree. This is my 6th year but I used scholarships and employer educational assistance to pay for the majority of my college education (that was my goal the entire time).  I'll be graduating with a net worth of about 135k right after I turn 25 in May...  The issue isn't students taking longer than 4 years to graduate, it's students going to college when they don't know what they want to do with their life or how much of a return on investment their education will actually give them.  Sadly, many college decisions students make turn into huge uneducated financial decisions.

+100000

I graduated HS in 2009; so I should have graduated college...2 years ago this May.  I'll be graduating *next* May :( 

Granted, I didn't attend school for all of the intervening semesters (was working), transferred once, and changed majors like 4 times (3 changes were my first semester freshman year, when I entered college at 17 in the midst of some pretty heavy family issues...finally just went to General Studies or whatever and then changed it once last time once I found out what makes me tick). 

A lot of kids I graduated have done the same; taking a long time or not finishing at all.  That's what happens when you're brought up in a place/mindset where college is absolutely expected.  I wasn't asked "Are you going to college?", I was asked "Where are you going to college?" When I left school after my first semester and went to work, because I clearly had no idea what the hell I was doing in college, a lot of people from my high school/hometown were shocked and publicly expressed concern to my parents.  The idea of taking a year off to figure out how the real world works was absolutely a foreign concept. 

Also, my state flagship university is one of those discussed earlier -- they're scheduling freshman level required courses at like 6 am and 9 pm.  I sometimes have math exams from 9-11 pm (outside of normal class hours because they administer the exams to the entire cohort at once -- ie. everyone taking Calc II at the same time, not just one section at a time).  And then I have an 8 am the next morning, and I live a half hour off campus.

They admitted so many new freshmen a year or two ago that they told the ones who lived within 45 minutes that they HAD to live at home and commute;  they currently have half the local hotel rented out as dorm rooms for a couple hundred kids.  It's getting ridiculous.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: CtrlMagicDel on February 11, 2015, 09:12:16 AM
It took me... 11 nonconsecutive years? Probably more like 9 if you count the 2 year or so break in between. Took me 3.5 years to get my A.S. in Computer Science from community college (wasn't able to get loans or grants most semesters due to parents having abysmal credit and not filing taxes a couple of times) so had to pay most of it in cash working massive hours at crap jobs. Got hired at my current employer about 4 months after getting my A.S. in a lower-level IT position and found out they had a tuition reimbursement plan (up to $5000 a year) for employees who had worked there for over a year. Took 2-3 classes a year on their dime as soon as I was eligible and got my B.S. in cSci from a cheap commuter college last year which is probably only relevant if I wanted to find another job and they screened out people without a piece of paper.

Started out in a lower paying position and had to do some miserable things before getting the IT job (working 50-60 hours while taking full time classes and 90-100 hours weeks between 3 jobs over a couple of summers) but never paid a cent of student loan interest. So I completely understand not earning a degree in 4 years. Learned waaaay more working than I ever did in school.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: RedMaple on February 11, 2015, 11:19:16 AM
Yup, I also didn't finish college in 4 years. It took me 5, I transferred school for my 3rd year. I couldn't take more than 12 credits a semester - I tried, but my grades all dropped by a letter. I figured my GPA was more important than finishing in 4 years.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: AllezAllezAllez on February 14, 2015, 04:06:38 PM
Many students at my (large public) university take more than 4 years. A certain number are working 30-40 hours a week and trying to be full time students at the same time. But others are just lazy, and refuse to register for classes that meet before noon, or on Fridays, so they put off requirements until the next term to see whether they can't get a better schedule. Me, I love to teach the early morning (8 or 9am) classes: low enrollments, clean classrooms, and smarter, more motivated kids. It's like the secret "real" university, hiding in plain sight. ;)
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: mnsaver on February 15, 2015, 06:07:09 PM
I took a ridiculously long time. I took 9 courses at CC before graduating high school. First class was in 1996 last one was 2013. Along the way I enrolled full time, dropped out, started at CC, dropped out again. Went to work full time, re-enrolled. Moved to another state and switched schools to get my bachelors. On the upside I have no student loan debt and recently bought a condo. In comparison to another person at my job who is my age, she just paid off her student loan and is starting to save for a house.

I think students would be better served w/out the expectation that college is expected. It would be far better to go out in the real world and then go back to school. It would save parents a lot of money too!
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Bracken_Joy on February 15, 2015, 06:16:44 PM
It took me a while, and I went back for a second degree anyway. First degree was a STEM field, but still not as employable as I wanted. Part of why it took so long the first time: parents and siblings have health crises around this age group. And if yours don't (mine did) then your SO's do. I worked in addition to school. Etc. Many reasons for why.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: willow on February 15, 2015, 06:32:30 PM
I don't understand the need for college to take so long. It seemed my education was chock full of superfluous extras that weren't necessary for my education. I think a bachelor's equivalent could easily be done in 2.5 years if you cut out all the waste, for most majors. By equivalent, I mean you'd get a student who is equally prepared for the workforce.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Tabaxus on February 16, 2015, 07:37:15 AM
I don't understand the need for college to take so long. It seemed my education was chock full of superfluous extras that weren't necessary for my education. I think a bachelor's equivalent could easily be done in 2.5 years if you cut out all the waste, for most majors. By equivalent, I mean you'd get a student who is equally prepared for the workforce.

Completely agree.  All of the "common core" type of stuff undergrads seeking technical majors are made to slog through is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Davids on February 16, 2015, 08:26:30 AM
I took 4 years which also included a summer internship and taking some summer courses at a local community college (credits transferred over to my university but taking them at the local community college was both cheaper and easier...)
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Villanelle on February 16, 2015, 08:33:07 AM
I attended school full time, working part time, and it still took me more than 4 years.

I attended a state school and--Surprise!--funding was an issue.  So while
I don't understand the need for college to take so long. It seemed my education was chock full of superfluous extras that weren't necessary for my education. I think a bachelor's equivalent could easily be done in 2.5 years if you cut out all the waste, for most majors. By equivalent, I mean you'd get a student who is equally prepared for the workforce.

Completely agree.  All of the "common core" type of stuff undergrads seeking technical majors are made to slog through is ridiculous.



It's not trade school.  If you only want to learn the skill you seek, and nothing else, that's what trade schools do.  A Bachelor's degree is about learning in a specific area, but it is also about becoming a more educated, well-rounded person.  That's why English majors tke math and Math majors take history and history majors take geography.

Maybe what we want from our degrees is evolving, but that was the original intention and I think it was, and is, a good one. 
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Tabaxus on February 16, 2015, 09:08:07 AM
I attended school full time, working part time, and it still took me more than 4 years.

I attended a state school and--Surprise!--funding was an issue.  So while
I don't understand the need for college to take so long. It seemed my education was chock full of superfluous extras that weren't necessary for my education. I think a bachelor's equivalent could easily be done in 2.5 years if you cut out all the waste, for most majors. By equivalent, I mean you'd get a student who is equally prepared for the workforce.

Completely agree.  All of the "common core" type of stuff undergrads seeking technical majors are made to slog through is ridiculous.



It's not trade school.  If you only want to learn the skill you seek, and nothing else, that's what trade schools do.  A Bachelor's degree is about learning in a specific area, but it is also about becoming a more educated, well-rounded person.  That's why English majors tke math and Math majors take history and history majors take geography.

Maybe what we want from our degrees is evolving, but that was the original intention and I think it was, and is, a good one.

It was a perfectly fine idea when it cost significantly less to go, and sure, maybe trade school is better.  However, as a practical matter, for many fields, the trade school alternative simply is not a good enough credential to get you in the door (rightly or wrongly).  And as long as education is as expensive as it is, people shouldn't be forced to take superfluous classes to check boxes, especially when anyone that is thinking about their resume rationally will take the easiest classes permitted to avoid having those add-on classes drag down the overall GPA/distracting from their real classes.  I have no problem with people being allowed to take these kind of classes, but at some schools, this "common core" stuff ends up being half (or more, at UChicago!) of total credits.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: willow on February 16, 2015, 03:53:48 PM
I attended school full time, working part time, and it still took me more than 4 years.

I attended a state school and--Surprise!--funding was an issue.  So while
I don't understand the need for college to take so long. It seemed my education was chock full of superfluous extras that weren't necessary for my education. I think a bachelor's equivalent could easily be done in 2.5 years if you cut out all the waste, for most majors. By equivalent, I mean you'd get a student who is equally prepared for the workforce.

Completely agree.  All of the "common core" type of stuff undergrads seeking technical majors are made to slog through is ridiculous.



It's not trade school.  If you only want to learn the skill you seek, and nothing else, that's what trade schools do.  A Bachelor's degree is about learning in a specific area, but it is also about becoming a more educated, well-rounded person.  That's why English majors tke math and Math majors take history and history majors take geography.

Maybe what we want from our degrees is evolving, but that was the original intention and I think it was, and is, a good one.

The argument is that you don't need a 4 year degree for most professions that currently require one and there is no alternative because of how the employment system is set up. Going to trade school is not acceptable for most professions and you will be looked down on for no logical reason. I find it akin to a status symbol that doesn't hold real value as to how much you are actually worth intellectually. I also don't think being a more "well rounded" person is being achieved by the current education system. You can tell a well rounded person when you meet them, and they didn't often become that way from their university education. Most likely, they were already avid consumers of educational media before attending university and will continue to do so after they have left.

Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: willow on February 16, 2015, 03:59:28 PM
I don't understand the need for college to take so long. It seemed my education was chock full of superfluous extras that weren't necessary for my education. I think a bachelor's equivalent could easily be done in 2.5 years if you cut out all the waste, for most majors. By equivalent, I mean you'd get a student who is equally prepared for the workforce.

Completely agree.  All of the "common core" type of stuff undergrads seeking technical majors are made to slog through is ridiculous.
Speaking as a technical major though, I think that those writing and public speaking courses tend to be unappreciated until you are much farther along in your career.

I agree with you there. Noticing it immediately upon graduation that, at least in my school, career preparation(interviewing skills, how to dress, networking) was not as intense in the engineering school as it was for the business school.

To your point about the public speaking and writing, we get some really brilliant new hires who are a mixed bag when it comes to writing skills. On those grounds though, I would say if you want to be a good employee for most jobs you should have the kind of writing skills that allow you to clearly document what you have done and communicate properly with your team mates.

For public speaking, I think that can be taught down the road when or if it becomes necessary.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: TheAnonOne on February 17, 2015, 09:45:11 AM
Worked full time, graduated in 2.5 years with a B.S. in Software Engineering / Comp Sci...
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: eostache on February 17, 2015, 09:50:58 AM
It took me 7 years to get a 4 year degree, finished in 2009. I was a non-trad student (in my 30s). I went full time every semester, but only 12 credits per semester, plus some summer courses. I did work p/t on the side as a TA/RA or an intern. I was in a hard science program with a lot of math, chem, classes with labs, etc. so 12 credits kept me plenty busy and I wanted to keep my GPA way up. I also often had time in the field looking at outcrops (geology degree). Plus extra classes for my GIS minor.

This was back in the salad days of financial aid. I got enough grants and scholarships to pay all my tuition and some of my living expenses each year. I did not take any loans. I sort of milked it for as along as I could until they told me I had to graduate so I took as many classes as I could, credits way over the minimum I needed to graduate. I just only lost income all those years. I really enjoyed going to school and don't regret the journey.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: skunkfunk on February 17, 2015, 01:34:09 PM
I don't understand the need for college to take so long. It seemed my education was chock full of superfluous extras that weren't necessary for my education. I think a bachelor's equivalent could easily be done in 2.5 years if you cut out all the waste, for most majors. By equivalent, I mean you'd get a student who is equally prepared for the workforce.

Completely agree.  All of the "common core" type of stuff undergrads seeking technical majors are made to slog through is ridiculous.

Eh, it doesn't take that long if you already have the knowledge base. I did all of that in six months (interim, semester, interim, summer semester + CLEP tests. Take as much as possible online and knock it out in 2 days/class.) I took them all at the very end of college, same time I was doing my most difficult senior physics courses, programming course, and final bit of chemistry. I'm no genius bad-ass, either, it's not that bad.

If you can't pull that off, then you probably needed the courses anyway lest you write horrible reports/papers/whatever-you-do.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: willow on February 17, 2015, 05:39:11 PM
I don't understand the need for college to take so long. It seemed my education was chock full of superfluous extras that weren't necessary for my education. I think a bachelor's equivalent could easily be done in 2.5 years if you cut out all the waste, for most majors. By equivalent, I mean you'd get a student who is equally prepared for the workforce.

Completely agree.  All of the "common core" type of stuff undergrads seeking technical majors are made to slog through is ridiculous.

Eh, it doesn't take that long if you already have the knowledge base. I did all of that in six months (interim, semester, interim, summer semester + CLEP tests. Take as much as possible online and knock it out in 2 days/class.) I took them all at the very end of college, same time I was doing my most difficult senior physics courses, programming course, and final bit of chemistry. I'm no genius bad-ass, either, it's not that bad.

If you can't pull that off, then you probably needed the courses anyway lest you write horrible reports/papers/whatever-you-do.

I think the CLEP thing is something of which more students should take advantage. I graduated in 4, could have done it in 3 or 3.5 if I hadn't changed majors. I still believe there were a few courses that were completely unnecessary. Kudos to you for getting out of so many courses. If I may ask, were you able to graduate early because of this?
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: willow on February 17, 2015, 05:40:13 PM
Worked full time, graduated in 2.5 years with a B.S. in Software Engineering / Comp Sci...

That is awesome. How'd you do it?
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Travis on February 17, 2015, 05:54:00 PM
During freshman orientation we were told most of the "hard science" degrees would take close to 5 years due to the higher credit requirements, failed classes, and not enough seats for key classes towards the end.  I took 5 years and it was mostly my fault.  I started out as an engineering student and at orientation they said "Look to your left and right.  In 4 years at least one of you won't be here for graduation - most likely two of you."  I was one of those statistics.  I went for an engineering degree because I felt I was expected to have a hard science degree though my high school grades in those subjects absolutely sucked. 

My school was a trimester system though we called them "quarters." The fall quarter of freshman year I took a lot of "prerequisite" classes which were required if you didn't score high enough in certain placement tests.  The classes were in English (thanks CA public school system!), chemistry, and calculus.  Winter quarter I took entry level calculus and an engineering class and failed them.  I don't remember what I took spring quarter, but it was an equally stellar performance.  I took the summer and the next fall quarter off the enlist in the Army Reserve, and when I got back in winter I took a programming class and failed that too.  I changed majors to Political Science and started hammering through history and poly sci courses.  I loved them.  I took a couple summer courses, but that was my prime time for extended training exercises and work.  I finished in exactly 5 years, though if it wasn't for my freshman screw ups I could have done it in four. In fact, I was only 3 classes away from a Poly Sci/History double major, but by that point I just wanted to get out of there.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: skunkfunk on February 17, 2015, 08:42:10 PM
I don't understand the need for college to take so long. It seemed my education was chock full of superfluous extras that weren't necessary for my education. I think a bachelor's equivalent could easily be done in 2.5 years if you cut out all the waste, for most majors. By equivalent, I mean you'd get a student who is equally prepared for the workforce.

Completely agree.  All of the "common core" type of stuff undergrads seeking technical majors are made to slog through is ridiculous.

Eh, it doesn't take that long if you already have the knowledge base. I did all of that in six months (interim, semester, interim, summer semester + CLEP tests. Take as much as possible online and knock it out in 2 days/class.) I took them all at the very end of college, same time I was doing my most difficult senior physics courses, programming course, and final bit of chemistry. I'm no genius bad-ass, either, it's not that bad.

If you can't pull that off, then you probably needed the courses anyway lest you write horrible reports/papers/whatever-you-do.

I think the CLEP thing is something of which more students should take advantage. I graduated in 4, could have done it in 3 or 3.5 if I hadn't changed majors. I still believe there were a few courses that were completely unnecessary. Kudos to you for getting out of so many courses. If I may ask, were you able to graduate early because of this?

CLEP is certainly far easier than the AP system. And no, I jacked about too much early on to get out in four. I got a 2.6% in a sophomore engineering course before I got serious (somehow graduated cum laud after that debacle.) Took 6 years for 2 unrelated degrees.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: darkadams00 on February 17, 2015, 09:05:32 PM
I attended school full time, working part time, and it still took me more than 4 years.

I attended a state school and--Surprise!--funding was an issue.  So while
I don't understand the need for college to take so long. It seemed my education was chock full of superfluous extras that weren't necessary for my education. I think a bachelor's equivalent could easily be done in 2.5 years if you cut out all the waste, for most majors. By equivalent, I mean you'd get a student who is equally prepared for the workforce.

Completely agree.  All of the "common core" type of stuff undergrads seeking technical majors are made to slog through is ridiculous.

It's not trade school.  If you only want to learn the skill you seek, and nothing else, that's what trade schools do.  A Bachelor's degree is about learning in a specific area, but it is also about becoming a more educated, well-rounded person.  That's why English majors tke math and Math majors take history and history majors take geography.i

Maybe what we want from our degrees is evolving, but that was the original intention and I think it was, and is, a good one.

I agree with the "well-rounded" intent of a bachelor's degree. I've always told my sons that, at a minimum, they should be competent at most things and extremely skilled at some thing. Their lives will be better because of "most things" and their career will more enjoyable and productive because of "some thing."
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Candace on February 19, 2015, 12:24:23 PM
I graduated in 1988 with a BS in Mechanical Engineering. It was a four-year program, and very tough, but I was expected to graduate in four years and I did. I think that was "normal" back then.

Nowadays, I have heard from many people that college students just expect to take five years to finish a four-year program. Lower expectations = lower performance in my opinion.

Having said that, if someone is working more than 25 hours a week (give or take), or has some other real reason to take a lighter courseload, then I can understand taking longer. Reading through this thread showed many reasons why someone would take longer and feel fine about it.

Losing credits on transfer is a shame. But if someone wants to transfer or even starts out at CC planning on doing so, they should really do their homework in advance to make sure their credits will transfer, or choose a different plan. Don't colleges provide a faculty advisor to help with this stuff? I had an advisor, and had to meet with him once a semester whether I wanted to or not. I know someone now who's in her seventh year of school, and lost at least a year of credits in the early years because she simply didn't know her courses were worthless elsewhere.

Another thing I can't understand is colleges and universities basically making it impossible to graduate on time by denying students courses they need. If they need it, they should be allowed in the class, period.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: johnny847 on February 19, 2015, 02:07:56 PM
I graduated in 2012 with a BS in Electrical and Computer Engineering from a top private school. It was a four year program that I completed in three. I was definitely an outlier amongst my friends, though I did graduate with another fellow student who also only took three years.


Since some students work part time while completing their degree, I don't think taking more than four years is anti-Mustachian.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Laura on April 25, 2015, 09:30:23 PM
I completed my B.S. degree in International Business in 3 years. I went to a college that had trimesters instead of semesters, so that enabled me to take more courses each year than the typical college student would be able to take anyway. I was also in the honors program, so that allowed me to take one extra course each trimester. I studied abroad for two separate trimesters and there were only certain courses you could take during the trimesters abroad, so I wasn't able to take an extra course during those study abroad programs even though I was in the honors program. One summer I took a Psychology course at the community college near my home, to get that course over with during the summer.

So, there were definitely a lot of things that helped me finish in 3 years instead of 4 years. I do think that there are many people who work their way through college, so that could cause them to take longer to graduate, if they are taking a lighter course load in order to balance school and work. I only worked during the summers while I was in college.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: LeRainDrop on April 25, 2015, 10:22:51 PM
Wow, this thread has been a learning experience for me.  I came from a background where the understanding was that everyone would go to college, and a college degree takes four years to earn.  So, I had a bunch of AP credits from high school, went to a good private college, and graduated with a BA in Political Science in four years.  I double-majored in Chemistry, too, but my college lets undergrads choose only one bachelor's degree, no matter how many majors they can finish.  I suppose there were at least some people who disappeared after the first year of college (transferred, or took time off?), but it seems like the overwhelming majority finished a bachelor's degree in four years.  I also had a handful of friends who did it in three years.

Now, I'm a lawyer at a big law firm, and it seems that most everyone did their bachelor's in four years.  However, one of my closest colleagues, who is extremely smart and has a knack for finding good practical answers, had a pretty circuitous route to get here.  She told me her "big secret" (said with a smile) was that she did not graduate high school, but instead got her GED.  After a while of working, she took night classes in state school to get her bachelor's.  A few years later, she continued with night classes at a state law school.  Now she is here at "prestigious BigLaw" just the same as others who took a more traditional path, and she is excelling.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Indexer on April 25, 2015, 10:31:57 PM
I took 4 1/2. 

I was actually done in 4, but in my 4th year I figured out there was a particular specialty in my field I wanted to focus on so I took a couple extra courses focusing on that.  Seeing that I graduated in 08 and I had three job offers in that specialty... it paid off.  :) 
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Merrie on April 25, 2015, 11:20:57 PM
I went to a pricey private college for undergrad. I had a lot of merit aid and help from parents and graduated with about 15k in loans. After 4 years all college aid went away so I would have lost all my scholarships, so not finishing in 4 years was basically not on the table. I was stunned by the number of "super seniors" we had. Not tons but definitely a decent contingent. I always wondered how they afforded it. Most of my friends graduated in 4 years, though, even my BFF who switched majors in her junior year (like me, she couldn't have afforded to take longer).

My husband did undergrad in 5 years at a state college after changing his major in his junior year. Both his brothers also took 5 years; in both their cases they studied abroad and I think that's why they took longer.

I have never had the experience of not being able to get needed classes, so I guess I'm lucky in that.

I do wonder too what percent of these stats are for people who didn't really intend to do whatever it was anyway... after undergrad I made up some prerequisites at a community college to apply to pharmacy school. To get aid I had to be registered as an Associate of Arts student, but of course I had no intention of actually getting that degree, which I didn't, and that would look on the college's stats like I dropped out. I'd say I accomplished my educational goals though!
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Michael792 on April 25, 2015, 11:58:56 PM
I went for a year and then joined the Army. Probably not finishing by the end of this month, with only fifty hours. This would have been when I graduated had I stayed the course.
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: Murse on April 26, 2015, 08:56:17 AM
Heck, it's taken me 5 years to get an associates degree. Thing is though that you have to take 2 years of pre-reqs to get into the 2 year associates program. Competition is fierce (300 applicants for 50 spots) so it took me an extra year just to get in. I made the mustachian choice though. I met a nurse that said she had 120k in student loan debt from a local 4 year school (she used it for everything including living expenses.)
Title: Re: Most college students don't earn degree in 4 years?!
Post by: SwordGuy on April 28, 2015, 08:35:36 PM
I graduated in 3.5 years with  double major.

Took a bunch of advanced placement courses in high school and tested out of some classes.  This and the double major almost cancelled each other out.

I worked my ass off mowing yards starting in 8th grade thru 12th grade, plus I worked at McDonalds once I hit 16.  I saved most of the money I didn't use to buy my mowers with.  Lived with my parents to keep my costs down so just one job at McDonalds was enough to get me thru.

I typically took 18 hours of courses each semester.  The last two courses were essentially free that way.  It wasn't all that hard because most of the freshman and sophomore classes just covered stuff I learned in grade school, or high school, or just by reading on my own before college.   In other words, I actually took the time and trouble to learn what I was taught in K-12.  Shocking concept to many in this country, I'm sad to say.

I learned from older friends about the potential problem getting an essential class in the last year, so I took higher level classes as soon as I could get into them.  This meant that most of my last semester's worth of classes were the freshman 101 classes.  In effect, I went to school backwards.