Author Topic: The Toyota Dealership  (Read 8746 times)

JAYSLOL

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The Toyota Dealership
« on: December 11, 2015, 04:30:47 PM »
I spotted a freshly traded in used Toyota Matrix at the local dealer and wandered in to see how much they wanted for it.  Uh, way too much. Like $5k too much.  Anyway as I walked through the showroom full of sickeningly overpriced trucks, I noticed that the Toyota Tundra had 2 brand new dirt bikes AND a kayak in the back with a sign that read "include with your financing!".  The Tacoma had 2 new super high end mountain bikes with the same sign attached. 

slugline

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2015, 05:23:55 PM »
Oooh, I wonder if they would roll in a Taco Bell gift certificate and a case of Mountain Dew into the deal?

JAYSLOL

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2015, 05:59:48 PM »
Oooh, I wonder if they would roll in a Taco Bell gift certificate and a case of Mountain Dew into the deal?

If i financed at the sticker prices I saw in the window, they could probably include an actual Taco Bell franchise and a lifetime supply of Mountain Dew at no charge and come out ahead

forward

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2015, 06:49:03 PM »
I spotted a freshly traded in used Toyota Matrix at the local dealer and wandered in to see how much they wanted for it.  Uh, way too much. Like $5k too much.  Anyway as I walked through the showroom full of sickeningly overpriced trucks, I noticed that the Toyota Tundra had 2 brand new dirt bikes AND a kayak in the back with a sign that read "include with your financing!".  The Tacoma had 2 new super high end mountain bikes with the same sign attached.

Wow!  That is incredible, I feel like I want to meet the person that takes that deal just because of the sheer lunacy of it.

steviesterno

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2015, 05:30:28 AM »
my old roommate went with one of those deals. Finance a brand new tundra through the dealership and get a bed full of tools. He ended up taking out a loan at 2% or so higher than a credit union, drove the truck for a year and rolled the left overs into his next loan. All for $200 worth of power tools I don't think he's used since.


Le Poisson

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2015, 05:42:44 AM »
Remember the Jetta Trek? Wasn't that essentially the same thing? Came with a mountain bike and a fancy roof rack IIRC. Meanwhile being marketed to people who actually mountain biked, and therefore already had the gear.

I think Jeep did something similar since I got a set of new unopened Jeep roof racks (they were rebranded Thule gutter racks) to go on the old Mercedes off Kijiji.

It seems like all the vehicles marketed to young outdoorsy people get outfitted like a playmobil set eventually.

mm1970

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2015, 11:31:56 AM »
I spotted a freshly traded in used Toyota Matrix at the local dealer and wandered in to see how much they wanted for it.  Uh, way too much. Like $5k too much.  Anyway as I walked through the showroom full of sickeningly overpriced trucks, I noticed that the Toyota Tundra had 2 brand new dirt bikes AND a kayak in the back with a sign that read "include with your financing!".  The Tacoma had 2 new super high end mountain bikes with the same sign attached.
That's interesting. I look at used cars on the local FB sales page once in awhile.  Just because I sort of dream of owning a minivan (Sienna or Odyssey).

I'm not sure if I'm completely "out of the loop", or if people are unrealistic.

Any time I see a minivan for sale, I look it up on kbb.com.

Every. single. minivan (with the exception of 1), has been priced $5k too high.  And we all know that car dealers sell cars for higher than private sale prices, but these cars are priced at $5k higher than the car dealer price.  I can't even.

So maybe kbb is off, or people are just going with wishful thinking - but it's probably no surprise that there's very little interest in the cars.

I guess I'll stick to my 9 year old Matrix.

Ashyukun

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2015, 12:11:26 PM »
That's interesting. I look at used cars on the local FB sales page once in awhile.  Just because I sort of dream of owning a minivan (Sienna or Odyssey).

I'm not sure if I'm completely "out of the loop", or if people are unrealistic.

Any time I see a minivan for sale, I look it up on kbb.com.

Every. single. minivan (with the exception of 1), has been priced $5k too high.  And we all know that car dealers sell cars for higher than private sale prices, but these cars are priced at $5k higher than the car dealer price.  I can't even.

So maybe kbb is off, or people are just going with wishful thinking - but it's probably no surprise that there's very little interest in the cars.

I guess I'll stick to my 9 year old Matrix.

It's probably that people are pricing them way higher than is realistic- though $5k higher than dealer price (unless you're looking at really new ones where that's a much smaller percentage of the price) is pretty ridiculous. I've generally found KBB to be a pretty good barometer for the price of things, so it's my guess they're just pricing them really high and hoping someone will bite (something I can't deny being guilty of myself- you just have to know what's actually reasonable too and take it if offered it...).

JAYSLOL

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2015, 03:10:55 PM »
That's interesting. I look at used cars on the local FB sales page once in awhile.  Just because I sort of dream of owning a minivan (Sienna or Odyssey).

I'm not sure if I'm completely "out of the loop", or if people are unrealistic.

Any time I see a minivan for sale, I look it up on kbb.com.

Every. single. minivan (with the exception of 1), has been priced $5k too high.  And we all know that car dealers sell cars for higher than private sale prices, but these cars are priced at $5k higher than the car dealer price.  I can't even.

So maybe kbb is off, or people are just going with wishful thinking - but it's probably no surprise that there's very little interest in the cars.

I guess I'll stick to my 9 year old Matrix.

It's probably that people are pricing them way higher than is realistic- though $5k higher than dealer price (unless you're looking at really new ones where that's a much smaller percentage of the price) is pretty ridiculous. I've generally found KBB to be a pretty good barometer for the price of things, so it's my guess they're just pricing them really high and hoping someone will bite (something I can't deny being guilty of myself- you just have to know what's actually reasonable too and take it if offered it...).

IMO dealer list prices are already wishfull thinking.  And yeah some people selling privately will ask insane amounts too.  I know the dealer is full of it when they immediately offer $1000 of the price they just told me.  They wanted $17,500 for the matrix btw, I almost laughed at the guy.

mm1970

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2015, 03:28:57 PM »
That's interesting. I look at used cars on the local FB sales page once in awhile.  Just because I sort of dream of owning a minivan (Sienna or Odyssey).

I'm not sure if I'm completely "out of the loop", or if people are unrealistic.

Any time I see a minivan for sale, I look it up on kbb.com.

Every. single. minivan (with the exception of 1), has been priced $5k too high.  And we all know that car dealers sell cars for higher than private sale prices, but these cars are priced at $5k higher than the car dealer price.  I can't even.

So maybe kbb is off, or people are just going with wishful thinking - but it's probably no surprise that there's very little interest in the cars.

I guess I'll stick to my 9 year old Matrix.

It's probably that people are pricing them way higher than is realistic- though $5k higher than dealer price (unless you're looking at really new ones where that's a much smaller percentage of the price) is pretty ridiculous. I've generally found KBB to be a pretty good barometer for the price of things, so it's my guess they're just pricing them really high and hoping someone will bite (something I can't deny being guilty of myself- you just have to know what's actually reasonable too and take it if offered it...).

IMO dealer list prices are already wishfull thinking.  And yeah some people selling privately will ask insane amounts too.  I know the dealer is full of it when they immediately offer $1000 of the price they just told me.  They wanted $17,500 for the matrix btw, I almost laughed at the guy.
How old was the Matrix??

I believe we paid about $17,500 for our Matrix in 2006 - NEW - including taxes.  It was around $16k, before taxes.

JAYSLOL

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2015, 04:47:05 PM »
That's interesting. I look at used cars on the local FB sales page once in awhile.  Just because I sort of dream of owning a minivan (Sienna or Odyssey).

I'm not sure if I'm completely "out of the loop", or if people are unrealistic.

Any time I see a minivan for sale, I look it up on kbb.com.

Every. single. minivan (with the exception of 1), has been priced $5k too high.  And we all know that car dealers sell cars for higher than private sale prices, but these cars are priced at $5k higher than the car dealer price.  I can't even.

So maybe kbb is off, or people are just going with wishful thinking - but it's probably no surprise that there's very little interest in the cars.

I guess I'll stick to my 9 year old Matrix.

It's probably that people are pricing them way higher than is realistic- though $5k higher than dealer price (unless you're looking at really new ones where that's a much smaller percentage of the price) is pretty ridiculous. I've generally found KBB to be a pretty good barometer for the price of things, so it's my guess they're just pricing them really high and hoping someone will bite (something I can't deny being guilty of myself- you just have to know what's actually reasonable too and take it if offered it...).

IMO dealer list prices are already wishfull thinking.  And yeah some people selling privately will ask insane amounts too.  I know the dealer is full of it when they immediately offer $1000 of the price they just told me.  They wanted $17,500 for the matrix btw, I almost laughed at the guy.
How old was the Matrix??

I believe we paid about $17,500 for our Matrix in 2006 - NEW - including taxes.  It was around $16k, before taxes.

It was a 2013 (newer than I'm looking for anyway) and had about 30k (kms) on it.  There is a 2014 matrix in awesome shape with the same mileage for $14,500 privately, been for sale for a couple months with no takers, so $17,500 is crazy.

mm1970

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2015, 04:55:40 PM »
That's interesting. I look at used cars on the local FB sales page once in awhile.  Just because I sort of dream of owning a minivan (Sienna or Odyssey).

I'm not sure if I'm completely "out of the loop", or if people are unrealistic.

Any time I see a minivan for sale, I look it up on kbb.com.

Every. single. minivan (with the exception of 1), has been priced $5k too high.  And we all know that car dealers sell cars for higher than private sale prices, but these cars are priced at $5k higher than the car dealer price.  I can't even.

So maybe kbb is off, or people are just going with wishful thinking - but it's probably no surprise that there's very little interest in the cars.

I guess I'll stick to my 9 year old Matrix.

It's probably that people are pricing them way higher than is realistic- though $5k higher than dealer price (unless you're looking at really new ones where that's a much smaller percentage of the price) is pretty ridiculous. I've generally found KBB to be a pretty good barometer for the price of things, so it's my guess they're just pricing them really high and hoping someone will bite (something I can't deny being guilty of myself- you just have to know what's actually reasonable too and take it if offered it...).

IMO dealer list prices are already wishfull thinking.  And yeah some people selling privately will ask insane amounts too.  I know the dealer is full of it when they immediately offer $1000 of the price they just told me.  They wanted $17,500 for the matrix btw, I almost laughed at the guy.
How old was the Matrix??

I believe we paid about $17,500 for our Matrix in 2006 - NEW - including taxes.  It was around $16k, before taxes.

It was a 2013 (newer than I'm looking for anyway) and had about 30k (kms) on it.  There is a 2014 matrix in awesome shape with the same mileage for $14,500 privately, been for sale for a couple months with no takers, so $17,500 is crazy.

No kidding.  One of my friends was selling their Matrix (2005) for too high a price too.  No takers. They had a second kid and "had" to trade up to an SUV.

Making Cookies

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2015, 11:21:16 AM »
That's interesting. I look at used cars on the local FB sales page once in awhile.  Just because I sort of dream of owning a minivan (Sienna or Odyssey).

I'm not sure if I'm completely "out of the loop", or if people are unrealistic.

Any time I see a minivan for sale, I look it up on kbb.com.

Every. single. minivan (with the exception of 1), has been priced $5k too high.  And we all know that car dealers sell cars for higher than private sale prices, but these cars are priced at $5k higher than the car dealer price.  I can't even.

So maybe kbb is off, or people are just going with wishful thinking - but it's probably no surprise that there's very little interest in the cars.

I guess I'll stick to my 9 year old Matrix.

It's probably that people are pricing them way higher than is realistic- though $5k higher than dealer price (unless you're looking at really new ones where that's a much smaller percentage of the price) is pretty ridiculous. I've generally found KBB to be a pretty good barometer for the price of things, so it's my guess they're just pricing them really high and hoping someone will bite (something I can't deny being guilty of myself- you just have to know what's actually reasonable too and take it if offered it...).

IMO dealer list prices are already wishfull thinking.  And yeah some people selling privately will ask insane amounts too.  I know the dealer is full of it when they immediately offer $1000 of the price they just told me.  They wanted $17,500 for the matrix btw, I almost laughed at the guy.

But what would the payment be Mr. Salesman??? ;)

JAYSLOL

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2015, 11:38:36 AM »
That's interesting. I look at used cars on the local FB sales page once in awhile.  Just because I sort of dream of owning a minivan (Sienna or Odyssey).

I'm not sure if I'm completely "out of the loop", or if people are unrealistic.

Any time I see a minivan for sale, I look it up on kbb.com.

Every. single. minivan (with the exception of 1), has been priced $5k too high.  And we all know that car dealers sell cars for higher than private sale prices, but these cars are priced at $5k higher than the car dealer price.  I can't even.

So maybe kbb is off, or people are just going with wishful thinking - but it's probably no surprise that there's very little interest in the cars.

I guess I'll stick to my 9 year old Matrix.

It's probably that people are pricing them way higher than is realistic- though $5k higher than dealer price (unless you're looking at really new ones where that's a much smaller percentage of the price) is pretty ridiculous. I've generally found KBB to be a pretty good barometer for the price of things, so it's my guess they're just pricing them really high and hoping someone will bite (something I can't deny being guilty of myself- you just have to know what's actually reasonable too and take it if offered it...).

IMO dealer list prices are already wishfull thinking.  And yeah some people selling privately will ask insane amounts too.  I know the dealer is full of it when they immediately offer $1000 of the price they just told me.  They wanted $17,500 for the matrix btw, I almost laughed at the guy.

But what would the payment be Mr. Salesman??? ;)

Lol, he asked if I bought the 2006 Hyundai I drove up in new, i told him no I bought it about 2 years ago.  So he asked how much I still owe on it, probably hoping to figure out how to roll that into payments on the newer car.  Nope, paid cash, sorry dude.  He then asked if I was going to pay cash or finance the next car, I told him at $17,500, neither.  He then immediately offered the car at $16,500 "if I buy today".  No.  Bye.

snogirl

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2015, 11:51:07 AM »
Toyota trucks, especially the new redesigned Tacoma (2016), is a very popular truck.
Customers/Enthusiasts (not on here more than likely) are paying OVER MSRP for them in certain regions.
My dealer cannot keep them on his lot.  They magically fly off....
Seriously.
How do I know this?
For I am a Toyota Tacoma enthusiast having owned one or another since I was 27.
I drive them into the ground, sell them even after that, to someone who can tinker more than me.
On the Taco Fan forums I frequent, there are people trading in 2014, 2015's to get one of these trucks that are basically the same as the older generation with some more "creature comforts", CRAWL control, a newer engine that supposedly is more efficient.
Most never see more than pavement or the Mall.
FAWK, OVER MSRP???
Not a chance.
Mine I use for my business and bought as a holdover since USED prices are insane as well....even private party.
I have stayed with the brand mainly because I know its idiosyncrasies, but geesum crow, I know my next one will be used.

JordanOfGilead

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2015, 01:32:40 PM »
I spotted a freshly traded in used Toyota Matrix at the local dealer and wandered in to see how much they wanted for it.  Uh, way too much. Like $5k too much.  Anyway as I walked through the showroom full of sickeningly overpriced trucks, I noticed that the Toyota Tundra had 2 brand new dirt bikes AND a kayak in the back with a sign that read "include with your financing!".  The Tacoma had 2 new super high end mountain bikes with the same sign attached.
That's interesting. I look at used cars on the local FB sales page once in awhile.  Just because I sort of dream of owning a minivan (Sienna or Odyssey).

I'm not sure if I'm completely "out of the loop", or if people are unrealistic.

Any time I see a minivan for sale, I look it up on kbb.com.

Every. single. minivan (with the exception of 1), has been priced $5k too high.  And we all know that car dealers sell cars for higher than private sale prices, but these cars are priced at $5k higher than the car dealer price.  I can't even.

So maybe kbb is off, or people are just going with wishful thinking - but it's probably no surprise that there's very little interest in the cars.

I guess I'll stick to my 9 year old Matrix.
A lot of time market demand will overpower kbb. Right now in my area, a base model late 90s civic has a KBB of $1000 give or take, but you won't find one that runs for under $1500 and if you want it to be free of body rust and under 180k miles on the clock you can almost guarantee that minimum price will be $2000. Why? Kids like them. They have a lot of universal parts across generations and the 90s ones can have almost any Honda civic/acura integra engine made between 1988 and 2000 dropped in without even needing new motor mounts. They're a good starter for people that want to learn to work on their own cars beyond the basic oil change and as a resuly, kids are willing to pay two or three times what they are worth for one in good shape.

Toyotas are similar. They have a reputation for reliability and easy/inexpensive maintenance and as a result are in high demand. Because of that, you will find a lot of people willing to pay above blue book for one depending on the model.

A case where the opposite is true in my area would be 90s model f-body cars (Camaro/firebird/trans am). I have two friends that have late-90s TransAms that they are trying to sell with barely 100,000 miles on them and bulletproof LS1 engines and they cant find any takers for anything close to the KBB price.
And these cars are pristine. They are owned by guys that only have them because they think they are cool cars. Neither of them lets their car see rain. Hell, one of them never even goes above the speed limit on the highway. He cruises in the right lane at 65 every where he goes.

KBB is generally a good indicator, but it still comes down to the local market / supply and demand.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 01:34:20 PM by JordanOfGilead »

Jack

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2015, 01:43:47 PM »
A lot of time market demand will overpower kbb. Right now in my area, a base model late 90s civic has a KBB of $1000 give or take, but you won't find one that runs for under $1500 and if you want it to be free of body rust and under 180k miles on the clock you can almost guarantee that minimum price will be $2000. Why? Kids like them. They have a lot of universal parts across generations and the 90s ones can have almost any Honda civic/acura integra engine made between 1988 and 2000 dropped in without even needing new motor mounts. They're a good starter for people that want to learn to work on their own cars beyond the basic oil change and as a resuly, kids are willing to pay two or three times what they are worth for one in good shape.

Toyotas are similar. They have a reputation for reliability and easy/inexpensive maintenance and as a result are in high demand. Because of that, you will find a lot of people willing to pay above blue book for one depending on the model.

Yep. The last three cars I bought were:
  • A 1998 VW TDI (diesel) with manual transmission
  • A 1996 Ford Ranger 4-cylinder 4x4 with manual transmission
  • A 1990 Mazda Miata with manual transmission
These are all either uncommon models/trims or cars with a strong enthusiast community, and their actual values have nothing in common with what KBB thinks they're worth. On the other hand, if I'd wanted a Ranger with 2WD and a slushbox, or a VW with a gasoline engine and a slushbox, I could've bought those for KBB value all day long.

JordanOfGilead

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2015, 01:46:32 PM »
A lot of time market demand will overpower kbb. Right now in my area, a base model late 90s civic has a KBB of $1000 give or take, but you won't find one that runs for under $1500 and if you want it to be free of body rust and under 180k miles on the clock you can almost guarantee that minimum price will be $2000. Why? Kids like them. They have a lot of universal parts across generations and the 90s ones can have almost any Honda civic/acura integra engine made between 1988 and 2000 dropped in without even needing new motor mounts. They're a good starter for people that want to learn to work on their own cars beyond the basic oil change and as a resuly, kids are willing to pay two or three times what they are worth for one in good shape.

Toyotas are similar. They have a reputation for reliability and easy/inexpensive maintenance and as a result are in high demand. Because of that, you will find a lot of people willing to pay above blue book for one depending on the model.

Yep. The last three cars I bought were:
  • A 1998 VW TDI (diesel) with manual transmission
  • A 1996 Ford Ranger 4-cylinder 4x4 with manual transmission
  • A 1990 Mazda Miata with manual transmission
These are all either uncommon models/trims or cars with a strong enthusiast community, and their actual values have nothing in common with what KBB thinks they're worth. On the other hand, if I'd wanted a Ranger with 2WD and a slushbox, or a VW with a gasoline engine and a slushbox, I could've bought those for KBB value all day long.
Don't even get me started on how much the private resale price goes up on an M/T car. Pretty much nobody but enthusiasts own them any more and it shows in the aftermarket.

TheAnonOne

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2015, 11:09:09 AM »
A lot of time market demand will overpower kbb. Right now in my area, a base model late 90s civic has a KBB of $1000 give or take, but you won't find one that runs for under $1500 and if you want it to be free of body rust and under 180k miles on the clock you can almost guarantee that minimum price will be $2000. Why? Kids like them. They have a lot of universal parts across generations and the 90s ones can have almost any Honda civic/acura integra engine made between 1988 and 2000 dropped in without even needing new motor mounts. They're a good starter for people that want to learn to work on their own cars beyond the basic oil change and as a resuly, kids are willing to pay two or three times what they are worth for one in good shape.

Toyotas are similar. They have a reputation for reliability and easy/inexpensive maintenance and as a result are in high demand. Because of that, you will find a lot of people willing to pay above blue book for one depending on the model.

Yep. The last three cars I bought were:
  • A 1998 VW TDI (diesel) with manual transmission
  • A 1996 Ford Ranger 4-cylinder 4x4 with manual transmission
  • A 1990 Mazda Miata with manual transmission
These are all either uncommon models/trims or cars with a strong enthusiast community, and their actual values have nothing in common with what KBB thinks they're worth. On the other hand, if I'd wanted a Ranger with 2WD and a slushbox, or a VW with a gasoline engine and a slushbox, I could've bought those for KBB value all day long.
Don't even get me started on how much the private resale price goes up on an M/T car. Pretty much nobody but enthusiasts own them any more and it shows in the aftermarket.

Indeed, 'Manual' cars tend to sell HIGHER than the automatics, even though the auto was a 1k+$ option when the car was new.

I had a Mustang GT manual, and when I sold it, it was well above the KBB price, and several thousand over very similar automatic cars(also mustangs).

steviesterno

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2015, 10:44:59 AM »
Toyota trucks, especially the new redesigned Tacoma (2016), is a very popular truck.
Customers/Enthusiasts (not on here more than likely) are paying OVER MSRP for them in certain regions.
My dealer cannot keep them on his lot.  They magically fly off....
Seriously.
How do I know this?
For I am a Toyota Tacoma enthusiast having owned one or another since I was 27.
I drive them into the ground, sell them even after that, to someone who can tinker more than me.
On the Taco Fan forums I frequent, there are people trading in 2014, 2015's to get one of these trucks that are basically the same as the older generation with some more "creature comforts", CRAWL control, a newer engine that supposedly is more efficient.
Most never see more than pavement or the Mall.
FAWK, OVER MSRP???
Not a chance.
Mine I use for my business and bought as a holdover since USED prices are insane as well....even private party.
I have stayed with the brand mainly because I know its idiosyncrasies, but geesum crow, I know my next one will be used.

Toyota fan here, and I bought an 07 FJ in 2012, before I knew about this site. But the good news at least, in the 3 years I've had it and put 25k on the odometer it's actually gone UP in value! about a grand more than I paid, it's crazy.

That said I do like it and would have a hard time giving it up. with the price what it is, and the value there, I might just hold onto it for the 200k miles I know it's good for.

RecoveringCarClown

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2015, 11:59:51 PM »
I was just discussing Toyota with a friend of mine and he told me he would never buy one.  I asked him why and he sent me this:

http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintended-acceleration-and-big-bowl-%E2%80%9Cspaghetti%E2%80%9D-code


Quote
Even a Toyota programmer described the engine control application as “spaghetti-like” in an October 2007 document Barr read into his testimony.

When NASA software engineers evaluated parts of Toyota’s source code during their NHTSA contracted review in 2010, they checked 35 of the MISRA-C rules against the parts of the Toyota source to which they had access and found 7,134 violations. Barr checked the source code against MISRA’s 2004 edition and found 81,514 violations.

“And in practice, five, ten, okay, fine. 10,000, no, we're done. It is not safe, and I don't need to see all 10,000 global variables to know that that is a problem,” Koopman testified.

snogirl

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2015, 09:44:15 AM »
Toyota trucks, especially the new redesigned Tacoma (2016), is a very popular truck.
Customers/Enthusiasts (not on here more than likely) are paying OVER MSRP for them in certain regions.
My dealer cannot keep them on his lot.  They magically fly off....
Seriously.
How do I know this?
For I am a Toyota Tacoma enthusiast having owned one or another since I was 27.
I drive them into the ground, sell them even after that, to someone who can tinker more than me.
On the Taco Fan forums I frequent, there are people trading in 2014, 2015's to get one of these trucks that are basically the same as the older generation with some more "creature comforts", CRAWL control, a newer engine that supposedly is more efficient.
Most never see more than pavement or the Mall.
FAWK, OVER MSRP???
Not a chance.
Mine I use for my business and bought as a holdover since USED prices are insane as well....even private party.
I have stayed with the brand mainly because I know its idiosyncrasies, but geesum crow, I know my next one will be used.

Toyota fan here, and I bought an 07 FJ in 2012, before I knew about this site. But the good news at least, in the 3 years I've had it and put 25k on the odometer it's actually gone UP in value! about a grand more than I paid, it's crazy.

That said I do like it and would have a hard time giving it up. with the price what it is, and the value there, I might just hold onto it for the 200k miles I know it's good for.

That is awesome.  Love the new look FJ's.  Yeah I would hard pressed to give up my truck too!

nobodyspecial

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2015, 10:18:23 PM »
I was just discussing Toyota with a friend of mine and he told me he would never buy one.  I asked him why and he sent me this:

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Even a Toyota programmer described the engine control application as “spaghetti-like” in an October 2007 document Barr read into his testimony.

When NASA software engineers evaluated parts of Toyota’s source code during their NHTSA contracted review in 2010, they checked 35 of the MISRA-C rules against the parts of the Toyota source to which they had access and found 7,134 violations. Barr checked the source code against MISRA’s 2004 edition and found 81,514 violations.

The MISRA and JSF rules include things like characters allowed to be used in variable names, or number of characters per line. The Toyota code was bad - but it's easy to stack up a big violation score. Something salesmen for validation tools like to demonstrate.

This is the same NASA that spent $35,000/line writing CMM 5star code for a shuttle auto landing system that was never used because the ex-fighter pilot crews wanted to feel they were doing something. But killed a bunch of people because managers over-rode engineers to meet a launch date to satisfy public relations
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 11:55:38 AM by nobodyspecial »

paddedhat

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2015, 08:04:29 AM »
Dealers can be pretty entertaining, when it comes to having really nice used Toyotas and Hondas on the lot. Last year I looked at a stripped, four year old Corolla with 40K miles. The upside is that it looked, and ran like new. The dealer wanted a few hundred bucks less than the original factory invoice, and wasn't budging on the price. I asked what kind of idiot would pay $500 less than the car cost, four years ago? They basically told me that they will find a buyer at that price, with little difficulty. Whatever, all I know is that it sure as hell wasn't going to be me.

zephyr911

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2015, 04:03:11 PM »
This is the same NASA that spent $35,000/line writing CMM 5star code for a shuttle auto landing system that was never used because the ex-fighter pilot crews wanted to feel they were doing something. But killed a bunch of people because managers over-rode engineers to meet a launch date to satisfy public relations
Zing!

RecoveringCarClown

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2015, 07:40:32 PM »
Whoa, you can bash NASA all you want, I mean, what good do they ever bring to light?  Hmm let's look at a really short list...

Artificial limbs
Baby formula
Cell-phone cameras
Computer mouse
Cordless tools
Ear thermometer
Firefighter gear
Freeze-dried food
Golf clubs
Long-distance communication
Invisible braces
MRI and CAT scans
Memory foam
Safer highways
Solar panels
Shoe insoles
Ski boots
Adjustable smoke detector
Water filters
UV-blocking sunglasses

But anyway, that post had nothing to do with NASA.  It appears you did not read the article, here is a little more. 

Quote
Last month, Toyota hastily settled an Unintended Acceleration lawsuit – hours after an Oklahoma jury determined that the automaker acted with “reckless disregard,” and delivered a $3 million verdict to the plaintiffs – but before the jury could determine punitive damages.

What did the jury hear that constituted such a gross neglect of Toyota’s due care obligations? The testimony of two plaintiff’s experts in software design and the design process gives some eye-popping clues. After reviewing Toyota’s software engineering process and the source code for the 2005 Toyota Camry, both concluded that the system was defective and dangerous, riddled with bugs and gaps in its failsafes that led to the root cause of the crash.

Bookout and Schwarz v. Toyota emanated from a September 2007 UA event that caused a fatal crash. Jean Bookout and her friend and passenger Barbara Schwarz were exiting Interstate Highway 69 in Oklahoma, when she lost throttle control of her 2005 Camry. When the service brakes would not stop her speeding sedan, she threw the parking brake, leaving a 150-foot skid mark from right rear tire, and a 25-foot skid mark from the left. The Camry, however, continued speeding down the ramp and across the road at the bottom, crashing into an embankment. Schwarz died of her injuries; Bookout spent five months recovering from head and back injuries.

Attorney Graham Esdale, of Beasley Allen, who represented the plaintiffs is the first to say that the Bookout verdict – in some measure – rested on those two black skid marks scoring the off- ramp.

“Toyota just couldn’t explain those away,” Esdale said. “The skid marks showed that she was braking.”

The jury was very attentive, despite the technical discussions that dominated the testimony. After the jury learned that the case had been settled, jurors asked Judge Patricia Parrish if they could stay and discuss the trial. A dozen jurors, Judge Parrish, and the plaintiff’s lawyers discussed it. Esdale says that it was obvious from that conversation that the jury was poised to punish Toyota for its conduct and cover-up.

Skid marks notwithstanding, two of the plaintiffs’ software experts, Phillip Koopman, and Michael Barr, provided fascinating insights into the myriad problems with Toyota’s software development process and its source code – possible bit flips, task deaths that would disable the failsafes, memory corruption, single-point failures, inadequate protections against stack overflow and buffer overflow, single-fault containment regions, thousands of global variables. The list of deficiencies in process and product was lengthy.

Now, no machine built by humans is perfect, but having knowledge of devices that I have worked on that go into autos, I was very surprised that a perceived quality company would allow this to happen.  Not that they are alone, VW, GM, Daimler, Ford, Honda, etc all have had their demons; although imo few are as terrifying as unintended acceleration.  I just find it funny that anybody puts any car maker on a pedestal. 

Another nugget of wisdom here that may not be obvious, having a manual transmission is good protection against acceleration issues. Well, at least for now most clutches are still manually actuated (not all though, just most cars that this forum would care to purchase).
-RCC

nobodyspecial

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2015, 11:41:16 PM »
Cell-phone cameras
CCD = Bell labs trying to make a delay line.

Quote
Computer mouse
WWII RAF fire control radar

Quote
Ear thermometer
Dr. Benzinger at the Naval Medical Research Institute although he originally worked on it in the German airforce in WWII

Quote
Long-distance communication
Probably the SETI broadcasts from Aricebo - we just haven't had a reply yet

Quote
MRI and CAT scans
MRI was from Stony Brook in the 70s, the underlying NMR effect is from Stern-Gerlach in the 30/40s
CRT scans were invented in England in the 50s by Houndsfield - which is why we use Houndsfield units in CT scans today

Quote
Solar panels
Bell labs again
 

RecoveringCarClown

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2015, 01:00:46 AM »
I stopped reading after the first one, CCD??  CMOS as we know it today was invented at the JPL. 

We get it you hate NASA.

Any comments about Toyota?  Own one perhaps, something sure has you fired up.

gimp

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2015, 08:46:28 PM »
Pretty genius of them, to be honest. "If you're buying a new car, why not get a dirt bike too for only an extra $20/month?" Smart.

Making Cookies

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2015, 07:53:44 PM »
Dealers can be pretty entertaining, when it comes to having really nice used Toyotas and Hondas on the lot. Last year I looked at a stripped, four year old Corolla with 40K miles. The upside is that it looked, and ran like new. The dealer wanted a few hundred bucks less than the original factory invoice, and wasn't budging on the price. I asked what kind of idiot would pay $500 less than the car cost, four years ago? They basically told me that they will find a buyer at that price, with little difficulty. Whatever, all I know is that it sure as hell wasn't going to be me.

Way back when we bought our current daily-driver that was the case too. 16 years ago. Was easy to decide to buy new when used with was within a thousand and had 30K miles on it.

On unintended acceleration: getting very difficult to buy a manual transmission on vehicles sold in the USA. Will certainly figure into my next vehicle purchase. What's irritating is when your vehicle of choice is sold around the globe with a manual transmission but not here.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 07:55:48 PM by Joe Average »

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2015, 11:41:16 PM »
A sign near the freeway invites customers to "turn now and make a bad day into a Hyundai"... as though buying a brand-new vehicle could somehow make your day a little better. If anyone's paying MSRP and financing the vehicle I'd venture a guess their day (and their financial situation) will get worse, not better.

Making Cookies

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Re: The Toyota Dealership
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2015, 09:11:34 AM »
Anyone have any insight into whether "Truecar.com" is reliable info?