Author Topic: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care  (Read 41643 times)

RFAAOATB

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #150 on: May 21, 2015, 10:28:54 AM »

Agreed. As a European immigrant, I see what the inability to reconcile job and kids leads to - a fertility rate of 1.4, well below replacement level.

The fertility rate is dropping and below replacement levels in most of europe too, even in places with generous leave policies. So I'm not sure it makes much of a difference.

If this is a problem I guess it comes down to the following questions:
What should the global population be?
What is the sustainable resource extraction rate for this planet?  What is it on a per capita basis?  We always hear the first world is taking more than their fair share of resources.
Would we rather have nine billion people at a low consumption rate or one billion people at a high consumption rate?  I would prefer less people at a higher more luxurious consumption rate.  Are low wages a sign that on a per capita basis most of us are not worth the planetary resource extraction it takes to provide a decent life?

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16925
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #151 on: May 21, 2015, 11:23:40 AM »
Why do the one billion people have to be at a high consumption rate?

RFAAOATB

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #152 on: May 21, 2015, 11:35:51 AM »
Why do the one billion people have to be at a high consumption rate?

Because I want the option of steak and crab legs more than once a month.  Basically divide the planetary capacity by the population as a maximum allowable value.  If you're good with having less more power to you.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16925
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #153 on: May 21, 2015, 11:39:53 AM »
It's every person thinking the way that you think that has brought about our current population and rate of consumption.

Syonyk

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4005
    • Syonyk's Project Blog
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #154 on: May 21, 2015, 12:06:39 PM »
What should the global population be?

If the goal is sustainably supporting the population, radically lower than it is now.  It'll get there, eventually, one way or another.  Reality is a harsh mistress.

Quote
What is the sustainable resource extraction rate for this planet?  What is it on a per capita basis?  We always hear the first world is taking more than their fair share of resources.

Radically lower than what we're doing right now.  Orders of magnitude lower.

Quote
Would we rather have nine billion people at a low consumption rate or one billion people at a high consumption rate?  I would prefer less people at a higher more luxurious consumption rate.  Are low wages a sign that on a per capita basis most of us are not worth the planetary resource extraction it takes to provide a decent life?

Long term, try "a billion people or less at a low consumption rate" and you get closer to the likely reality.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16925
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #155 on: May 21, 2015, 12:09:20 PM »
Is it bad that I see relocation to different planets throughout the galaxy as being a more likely scenario than convincing everyone on Earth to conserve (let alone curb population)?

Syonyk

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4005
    • Syonyk's Project Blog
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #156 on: May 21, 2015, 12:13:13 PM »
Is it bad that I see relocation to different planets throughout the galaxy as being a more likely scenario than convincing everyone on Earth to conserve (let alone curb population)?

Sure.  Now go figure out the feasibility of actually turning into a space faring race.  Go look at the energy required to get a decent payload out of the solar system in a reasonable time, and come back to me when you've worked out just how utterly infeasible this is short of some sort of massive breakthrough in our understanding of spacetime.

zephyr911

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3624
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Northern Alabama
  • I'm just happy to be here. \m/ ^_^ \m/
    • Pinhook Development LLC
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #157 on: May 21, 2015, 12:22:31 PM »
Sure.  Now go figure out the feasibility of actually turning into a space faring race.  Go look at the energy required to get a decent payload out of the solar system in a reasonable time, and come back to me when you've worked out just how utterly infeasible this is short of some sort of massive breakthrough in our understanding of spacetime.
I took that more as a statement about the likelihood of convincing humanity to change its ways for its own good...

eyePod

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 965
    • Flipping A Dollar
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #158 on: May 21, 2015, 12:25:51 PM »
Yeah!  ... wait, what forum are we on again?

A frugality and early retirement one, I thought. Remind me again how spending 2-3 months of income per childbirth accomplishes either of those goals.

This is literally the dumbest thing I've ever read on this site. Jeez. That's like saying "eating anything that costs more than plain rice is dumb because everything is a purely financial decision." The point is to try and make conscious decisions and plan for the consequences as best as possible! This belongs on a how to be cheap forum, not the MMM one.

cerebus

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 509
  • Age: 43
  • Location: South Africa
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #159 on: May 21, 2015, 12:44:32 PM »

Yeah!  ... wait, what forum are we on again?

A frugality and early retirement one, I thought. Remind me again how spending 2-3 months of income per childbirth accomplishes either of those goals.

This is literally the dumbest thing I've ever read on this site. Jeez. That's like saying "eating anything that costs more than plain rice is dumb because everything is a purely financial decision." The point is to try and make conscious decisions and plan for the consequences as best as possible! This belongs on a how to be cheap forum, not the MMM one.

Regardless of the virtues of MMM self sufficiency, I still fail to see any benefit in imposing 3 months of a woman's salary in order to provide a good beginning for a child. It's a pointless expense that arises from anti employee and anti female policies.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16925
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #160 on: May 21, 2015, 12:45:59 PM »
Is it bad that I see relocation to different planets throughout the galaxy as being a more likely scenario than convincing everyone on Earth to conserve (let alone curb population)?

Sure.  Now go figure out the feasibility of actually turning into a space faring race.  Go look at the energy required to get a decent payload out of the solar system in a reasonable time, and come back to me when you've worked out just how utterly infeasible this is short of some sort of massive breakthrough in our understanding of spacetime.

I didn't say it was likely.


I said more likely than convincing people to conserve.

Syonyk

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4005
    • Syonyk's Project Blog
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #161 on: May 21, 2015, 12:51:38 PM »
It's a pointless expense that arises from anti employee and anti female policies.

... because all employers are infinite sources of money?

You haven't spent much time around small businesses, have you?

cerebus

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 509
  • Age: 43
  • Location: South Africa
Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #162 on: May 21, 2015, 01:01:36 PM »
It's a pointless expense that arises from anti employee and anti female policies.

... because all employers are infinite sources of money?

You haven't spent much time around small businesses, have you?

And yet somehow my South African employer manages just fine. And for that matter so do all employers everywhere else on earth. It's really not as much of a burden on the economy as it's being made out. It's basically a non issue. Otherwise the Canadian system also seems reasonable where it comes from a common tax pool. A woman may be expected to take 3 to 9 months of leave over a lifetime of employ.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 01:03:18 PM by cerebus »

KCM5

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 878
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #163 on: May 21, 2015, 01:40:56 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/21/us/nebraska-police-officer-killed/index.html

It's terribly sad that this woman was killed doing her work, but I'm not posting this because of that tragedy.

This woman, a police officer in Omaha, had a baby in Feb. She was born premature. So the mother went back to work while she was in the hospital to wait to take her leave until her daughter was released from the hospital. The most likely scenario is that she has 12 weeks of unpaid leave (could be 6 months if they're union, but seeing as she decided to do it this way I doubt it) and otherwise is not guaranteed her position if she takes longer. So she waited to take her leave until the child was released from the hospital, a practical decision but one she would not have had to make had she been allowed a reasonable amount of unpaid or paid leave - which in my book is at least 6 months to a year.

RunHappy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 561
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #164 on: May 21, 2015, 02:23:06 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/21/us/nebraska-police-officer-killed/index.html

It's terribly sad that this woman was killed doing her work, but I'm not posting this because of that tragedy.

This woman, a police officer in Omaha, had a baby in Feb. She was born premature. So the mother went back to work while she was in the hospital to wait to take her leave until her daughter was released from the hospital. The most likely scenario is that she has 12 weeks of unpaid leave (could be 6 months if they're union, but seeing as she decided to do it this way I doubt it) and otherwise is not guaranteed her position if she takes longer. So she waited to take her leave until the child was released from the hospital, a practical decision but one she would not have had to make had she been allowed a reasonable amount of unpaid or paid leave - which in my book is at least 6 months to a year.

That is awful!  I read about her a couple of weeks ago. She basically went back to work 2-3 days after giving birth just so she could save her unpaid leave for when her child came home. 

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5727
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #165 on: May 21, 2015, 06:15:49 PM »
I'll just leave this here...

cerebus

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 509
  • Age: 43
  • Location: South Africa
Re: Millennial parents sink under weight of low pay, debt, child care
« Reply #166 on: May 21, 2015, 10:33:39 PM »
Anyway if mothers are allowed to take paid leave maybe it'll teach a good lesson to employers about the fiscal responsibility it takes to raise an employee.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk