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Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: strider3700 on December 20, 2012, 11:07:08 AM

Title: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on December 20, 2012, 11:07:08 AM
I'm always nice with our family friends.  I offer advice if it looks like they're interested in it or they ask but I don't jam "you should do/act/be this way" comments down their throats.  I was reading the thread about judging others yesterday and I freely admit I judge others money habits.  I also discuss it with my wife.  It keeps us on board with our goals and stops us from making dumb decisions that our friends are.  I find it really useful to have the discussions when it comes to figuring out our money situation/goals/issues.  The most recent thing I had to share here though. I find their actions infuriating and venting here really helps.

Yesterday Our friend posted on facebook about how they're worried basically about money, she's not working, he's working but missed two days this week and they're now considering drastic action like him working out of the province to bring in some more money.

There's a huge back story here  but lets just list the last week and it's history.     Last summer when feeling depressed she spontaneously bought a $400 credit to a resort in mexico because it was half price. This went on the credit card of course.     Anyways back in october they realized the credit was going to expire and they'd be out the $400, so they started looking into everything else involved in a trip to mexico for 4 days.  Next thing we hear is they're going to mexico,  can we watch the kids for half of the trip while they're gone.    Ummm no we're both working... come to think of it shouldn't at least 1 of you be working and how much are the flights, if they're that cheap maybe we will go down to mexico.  My wife and I haven't been on a trip together ever actually so one day I'd like to do it.   Anyway it turns out that after everything else necessary was worked out they'd be out another $1200 for this trip to mexico.   When I hear about this I'm wondering where they will come up with an extra $1200 since their car did just break down and they  had to scramble to find $50 to tow it home. No it's still not repaired or even looked at.   My wife eventually can't take it and has a discussion with the wife and convinces her that they really can't afford to go to Mexico. Just write the $400 off as a learning experience to be framed and hung on the wall as a visual punch in the face reminder to think about your purchases...  End of story or so we though.

Jump ahead one month,   They found a way to transfer the credit to a closer resort.  travel would only be $250 to get there.   Do we want to go?  "sorry still working, and no we can't watch your kids..."     So they went to this ski resort which is unbelievably expensive  to even go in.  We got 4 days of facebook updates about amazing food,  booze, snowboarding,...   none of which was included in that $400 credit.   My wife figures everything above and beyond the travel would be near $1000.    They had a great time.

And now here we are 3 days after they get back and they're worried that his paycheck isn't as large as normal because he took 2 days off to go on this vacation... 

The worst part is they're taking zero responsibility for this.   They've decided that non of this is their fault or in their control (If my atheist ass hears god will provide from them one more time I'm going to lose it) and won't even take the simplest look at their habits to make changes.   I honestly think they should have spoken to a credit councillor to discuss bankruptcy a year or two ago,  but they just ignore the issue.   

Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: lauren_knows on December 20, 2012, 12:14:10 PM
I've got nothing for you except nods of agreement, but this part cracked me the hell up.

(If my atheist ass hears god will provide from them one more time I'm going to lose it)

May his noodly appendage touch you with goodness this holiday season. rAmen.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: EngGirl on December 20, 2012, 01:48:21 PM
Sorry to hear about your friends, but I like stories like this because they make me stop beating myself up for buying a bag of apples this week at the grocery store as a "splurge". Helps put things into perspective.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: COguy on December 20, 2012, 01:51:42 PM
Sorry to hear about your friends, but I like stories like this because they make me stop beating myself up for buying a bag of apples this week at the grocery store as a "splurge". Helps put things into perspective.

+1

I had to throw out some food yesterday because I am leaving town for 2 weeks.  Thanks EngGirl for showing me that I am doing okay in reducing my waste
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: noob515 on December 20, 2012, 02:02:18 PM
I've got nothing for you except nods of agreement, but this part cracked me the hell up.

(If my atheist ass hears god will provide from them one more time I'm going to lose it)

May his noodly appendage touch you with goodness this holiday season. rAmen.

Yup, this part was awesome.  I have heard many many people invoke God in the same manner.  I'm always tempted to respond like "yeah, but He already gave you a brain and common sense - what more do you want?".  Kind of like that story about the guy waiting for God to save him, and after he dies and goes to heaven, he asks God why He didn't save him, and God goes "I sent you a boat, I sent you a helicopter, I sent a man in a lifeboat, what more did you want?". 

I also like how they bought the $400 credit because it was half off, and TOTALLY disregarded how much additional money they would need to spend for the vacation.  A $400 coupon (that's what it was, right?) is awesome, who wouldn't want to save $400 off a vacation?  But if you don't have the money for the vacation, then the credit/coupon is worthless. 

I'm sure we all have friends/family members who are like this.  You just can't help people who refuse to help themselves. 
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on December 20, 2012, 02:35:39 PM
A $400 coupon (that's what it was, right?)

Basically.  As far as I understand it she paid for $800 worth of room credit at this resort and it only cost her $400  so  half price.   It was one of those groupon or equivalent deals.    This of course assumes that the room was really worth $800 for 4 or 5 nights,  whatever the original credit covered.    I see all inclusive's with flights listed for under $1000/person listed quite often. 
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: CNM on December 20, 2012, 03:47:47 PM
That's annoying to hear someone complain about money but do nothing to help themselves.  Just remind yourself that its their life (lives) and there's nothing you can do. 
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: SwordGuy on December 20, 2012, 05:15:46 PM
That's annoying to hear someone complain about money but do nothing to help themselves.  Just remind yourself that its their life (lives) and there's nothing you can do.

They posted on Facebook that they had a problem.  That can be considered a request for assistance, so you are clear to do something.

Sadly, speaking to them about it is unlikely to be successful because, for them to admit you are right, they have to first admit that they have been doing a host of stupid things.   Unlikely to happen.

However, since they are religious, give them an anonymous used copy of Ramsey's Total Money Makeover book.  It will cost you a few bucks.  Leave it on their doorstop or mail it to them.   They'll either read and act on it or not.  Either way, you're only out a few bucks and you've tried to help your friends.
It's one thing to admit to a total stranger who's famous that you're wrong (especially one who will reward you with attention) and quite another to hear a friend say that you're being stupid.

I know some of you on this forum are down on Ramsey, but he's really good at communicating to the religious groups.  Lots of churches offer his classes.  You can get a listing at his website online and include it with the book.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: NWstubble on December 21, 2012, 12:52:20 AM
However, since they are religious, give them an anonymous used copy of Ramsey's Total Money Makeover book.  It will cost you a few bucks.  Leave it on their doorstop or mail it to them.   They'll either read and act on it or not.  Either way, you're only out a few bucks and you've tried to help your friends.

+1
Match your message to your audience. They need basic PF help, debt snowball, monthly budget type info and a religious perspective sounds like it could help it go down easier.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: TomTX on December 28, 2012, 08:14:34 AM

I know some of you on this forum are down on Ramsey, but he's really good at communicating to the religious groups.  Lots of churches offer his classes.  You can get a listing at his website online and include it with the book.

Hope that helps.

Ramsey is a great starter for personal finance, for those who have totally screwed up their financial lives.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Erica/NWEdible on December 30, 2012, 01:25:15 AM
Quote
If my atheist ass hears god will provide from them one more time I'm going to lose it/
Reminds me of an old, old joke:
There once was a man stranded in the middle of the ocean. His ship had sunk and he was left with nothing but the clothes on his back and a slowly deflating air tube. So in this hopeless situation, he prayed, "God, please bring me a miracle! Rescue me! Send angels to help me! Get me out of here!". No more than five minutes later, a boat came by to rescue the man; but the man didn't get in the boat. When asked to get in he simply replied, "I don't need your boat! God is going to save me". So the ship went on. Exactly an hour later, a helicopter flew right above the man. The man in the helicopter begged the desperate man to climb into the safe helicopter, but the man just replied, “No! God will provide!". So the helicopter went on. After another hour of floating aimlessly in the ocean, the man noticed a small island off in the distance. As he began to drift towards it he rapidly started paddling the opposite way, thinking, "I don't want to be on that island, God is going to save me!”. Shortly after that, the man drowns. Once he got through the pearly gates of heaven, he went straight up to God, infuriated about his death. "Why didn't you save me like I asked?", the man said in frustration. God just looked at the man, and replied, "Oh for F%$cks sake, I sent you a boat, a helicopter and an island! What more did you want?"

Quote
May his noodly appendage touch you with goodness this holiday season. rAmen.
Well punned, sir, well punned indeed.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on April 04, 2013, 04:04:51 PM
The "Do you say anything topeople who spend foolishly" got me thinking about this post.  It's time for an update.

The couple in question hit some financial hard times about 2 months ago.   Her disability ended as did the grace period on payments to the credit cards.  It turns out that they hadn't been making payments for the last year because they were covered by some form of insurance.   

Also back in Feb she had to fly to a conference in texas for her side business.   I'm not sure she makes enough from the business to even cover the cost of the flight but whatever.  They planned a family trip as the husbands father lived near the conference area,  so he'd pay for the entire families flight down and they could stay with him.  Great, until the husband forgot to ask for time off work and couldn't go during the conference.  Instead the wife went to the conference and then flew home,  3 days later they all jumped on a plane to see grandpa for a week. 

This is when reality finally caught up with them.   They got home,   Husband had missed a weeks work,  mom had blown a couple of thousand at a conference,  all of the bills were sitting there and the credit cards were maxed out.  They had to borrow $20 from her mom to buy the kids milk.     

Sad to say but I thought this was a great thing.  Nothing like your kids going hungry to get your priorities straight right?  It also let me know I'm not crazy,  you can't spend way above your means forever and not have it come back to haunt you.  So off to a financial advisor they went. Financial advisor looked it all over and said they could consolidate debts and they would do it for only something like $2500.   This would lower payments and take some pressure off.

I offered to help make some suggestions on lowering some of their bills ($400/month electicity bill when my average is closer to $70 for similar sized houses...),  who knows how much on TV, netflix,vpn,...

jump ahead a week and the wife gets a new job.  It's not great but pays something and works schedule wise for her.   Excellent  so things are now moving in the right direction....   Two nights later I take my family out to dinner which is a rare event but I had just gotten a raise and wanted something special.   Get to the restaurant and there is the couple, and kids, and a table full of appetizers waiting for the main meal. 

Now here we are a couple of weeks later and they're trying to convince me to go somewhere nice with them because my wife and I never get away and we deserve it....

Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: EMP on April 05, 2013, 11:34:30 AM
They had to borrow $20 from her mom to buy the kids milk.     

Sad to say but I thought this was a great thing.  Nothing like your kids going hungry to get your priorities straight right?

Sounds like just thing thing to strengthen their faith in God.  :P
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: noob515 on April 05, 2013, 11:56:47 AM
...They had to borrow $20 from her mom to buy the kids milk.     

Sad to say but I thought this was a great thing.  Nothing like your kids going hungry to get your priorities straight right?  It also let me know I'm not crazy,  you can't spend way above your means forever and not have it come back to haunt you.  So off to a financial advisor they went. Financial advisor looked it all over and said they could consolidate debts and they would do it for only something like $2500.   This would lower payments and take some pressure off.

...jump ahead a week and the wife gets a new job.  It's not great but pays something and works schedule wise for her.   Excellent  so things are now moving in the right direction....   Two nights later I take my family out to dinner which is a rare event but I had just gotten a raise and wanted something special.   Get to the restaurant and there is the couple, and kids, and a table full of appetizers waiting for the main meal. 

Now here we are a couple of weeks later and they're trying to convince me to go somewhere nice with them because my wife and I never get away and we deserve it....

So the financial advisor is charging them $2500 to get their act together? 

Unfortunately it sounds like they haven't learned anything.  Now they are making more, they can just spend more!  I feel really bad for their kids.  Goodness knows what lessons they're learning. 
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on April 05, 2013, 03:02:26 PM
I think the $2500 was to cover fees with the mortgage.  My best guess is they would pay off the existing mortgage and then give them a new longer term mortgage stretched out to 30+ years instead of the original 20 or whatever they have left. A conventional lender can't give 30 year mortgages any longer but these debt companies can still do it somehow.   This coupled with any lowering in the balances/payments the CC companies would give them would give them a bunch more breathing room.   

The last personal I spoke to that sold these sort of things also did investing.  So what they would push was extend the mortgage, lower the payments as much as possible, then take a chunk of the extra saved and roll it into some high MER mutual funds.  This way the company could make the interest, make the MER fees and the customer would get a few hundred extra in their pocket each month to feel like they're doing better and look they're now saving for retirement!    how much went to retirement was entirely upto the client though so it was possible to waste your new found free cash rather then be smart and pay down the debt/invest it all.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Forcus on April 11, 2013, 10:46:51 AM
This reminds me of my cousin, always posting on Facebook her (self-imposed) financial ills and then saying God will provide. Wanted to slap her a couple times but restrained myself..
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: momo on April 12, 2013, 09:46:49 AM
That's annoying to hear someone complain about money but do nothing to help themselves.  Just remind yourself that its their life (lives) and there's nothing you can do.

I concur! And strider3700 I'd recommend taking it one step further, distancing yourself from these type of people or friends entirely. If their social media posts frustrate you, there are ways you can deselect seeing their facebook posts. And if they come around asking to fill you brain with negative garbage like pity parties and handouts, consider  shutting the door.

Sorry for the harshness for all our good intentions I am sure we can agree, we cannot help people who do not want to help themselves, right? With that in mind, you've done all you can and even if not, you are not their savior if they are not even open to accepting help from you.

I've had my share of irresponsible friends like these and they play the victim(s) well. In the end their mindset will only bring you down and infuriate you; so, cut the dead weight and preserve your sanity and happiness. Your time is too precious.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on May 27, 2013, 01:15:11 PM
wow not even two months later  it's time for another update. 

 About a month ago I heard that the wife worked hard finding a way to cook a rewards program and was hoping for a $500 bonus.  After doing all of this she found out that the program was no longer in effect and didn't get it.  The amazing part was how she was planning on spending the $500.   A laptop for her and only her.   No need to share that other almost brand new computer  that sits idle in the dinning room 90% of the time.  Instead she could sit in the living room 20 feet away and "work".  Work in this case involves entering orders online...  Maybe a few dozen in a really really good week.  Before that she was thinking of getting a piece of jewelry since she worked so hard and it was her money...

Jump ahead to two weeks ago.  I went to a kids birthday party there.   Small modest affair. It made sense.    I was in the living room hanging out with the other adults and was floored by the conversations.

One lady's husband wanted to sign up to the military.  She wouldn't let him because he'd be away too much and wouldn't make enough.  Ok fine that makes sense it would be a low paying job.   Then she said if he was to sign up she'd want a brand new SUV, new bigger house and a trip to Mexico each year.  In the mean time she's unemployed sitting at home and complaining that he doesn't make enough.  Next she brought up that she needs $300.   $100 for a new nose stud.  Apparently a piece of metal for your nose it that much.  Next to get her hair re-dyed.  She used to be a hair stylist before staying home with the kids,  can't you dye your own?   ANd finally $100 to get a room at a B&B 50 minutes out of town as she's going out to a birthday party and won't want to drive home that late at night.   The Wife that I know immediately jumped in and said she'll be up there as well at a party that night.  Perhaps they could find a B&B that will give them a discount if they get 2 rooms.   No we could share a room,  no I can drive you back, no maybe you shouldn't be going out to party tonight when you don't have any money.   Also who gives discounts to people who are desperately trying to find a room or two at the last moment?   

After that I wandered to the kitchen for a bit.  There one guy was discussing taking time off work but that made things really really tight so he was taking money from his RRSP's (Canadian Registered retirement savings plan) to help get by.   I'd guess he was Late 40's early 50's.    Definitely not at the point that he should be taking his retirement money out rather then working.

3 days after this party  the family needed to borrow $150 from her parents to pay for groceries. 

About a week later the wife of the original couple  in my story mentioned that their roof needs replaced. It does and would be the highest on my list.  It's also not a simple roof, so Even having done a few roofs I wouldn't consider taking this one on.  Lots and lots of flashing, valleys,...    So the wife is going to pull money from her RRSP to get it done.   

Last night their 1 remaining car broke down.   The other one that broke down in my first post  sat in the drive way for months until one of the windows slipped down a bit and the rain started to come in.  When they noticed months later the entire interior had rotted and it got towed away for scrap.   They compensated by him taking home a work van.  Both vehicles have died due to lack of maintenance would be my bet. They never do anything with them short of put gas in.

So now they have no vehicles, not enough income, no "regular" savings, are depleting their retirement income, have a house needing thousands in repairs and still spend more then I do with more then double their income.  The wife would like to get together with my wife to have a stress relieving break.  She would like my wife to pick her up and they can go for coffee because when you have serious money issues nothing is better then dropping $20 on a few hours at a coffee shop complaining about money.








Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: gooki on May 28, 2013, 03:46:59 AM
It's like a Shakespearian tragedy.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Rollin on May 28, 2013, 06:21:13 AM
It's like a Shakespearian tragedy.

Agreed.  Please keep the stories coming.  I have no TV and this is entertaining (although I could do the same writing for a few in my life).
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Paul der Krake on May 28, 2013, 06:37:19 AM
We need a musical adaptation.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Self-employed-swami on May 28, 2013, 07:37:33 AM
I feel so bad for their kids.  I hated growing up in a house, where my parents were always worried about money.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: olivia on May 28, 2013, 08:24:43 AM
I had an acquaintance exactly like your friends.  I got so sick of her crying poor right after she bought an iPad for her 3 year old that eventually I started saying "Why don't you sell X, Y or Z that you just bought?" whenever she would complain about being broke.  Then I just unfriended her on Facebook because I couldn't deal with her anymore.  Oh and this was well before I found MMM...maybe I was more mustachian than I thought!  :P
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: ghaynes on May 28, 2013, 11:25:21 AM
Can't wait till the next update...

(http://persephonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/kingofpopcorn1.gif)
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on May 28, 2013, 01:53:16 PM
Sadly I expect the end of the story is clear.  If for any reason they ever fail to get students renting their basement  their income will be cut by about 40%.  They will be forced into bankruptcy, probably have to sell the house at a loss, and I have no idea where they will go.   I feel bad for their kids. Hell I feel bad for all of them.  They're nice people. They're just absolutely completely moronic when it comes to money.

  I think that the majority of their friends are the same way so they think what's going on is normal.   Hell maybe that is the new normal.  A lot of the numbers coming out of Canada are brutal.   The debt levels of the average person is insane,  the savings rate is pathetic.  I believe the savings rate of my province is still negative. Home ownership is at record highs and most people have the vast majority of their net worth in their houses.   The economy is shaky and could easily get worse as housing slows down. 
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: NestEggChick (formerly PFgal) on June 09, 2013, 09:06:20 AM
If my atheist ass hears god will provide from them one more time I'm going to lose it

I'm not religious, but my response would be, "God did provide. God gave you health and the ability to work, which not everyone has. It's up to you to do something with those gifts."

I get annoyed too when people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. It's so convenient to assume someone/something else will take care of you, but it just doesn't work that way.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Aloysius_Poutine on June 09, 2013, 11:03:36 AM
Sadly I expect the end of the story is clear.  If for any reason they ever fail to get students renting their basement  their income will be cut by about 40%.  They will be forced into bankruptcy, probably have to sell the house at a loss, and I have no idea where they will go.   I feel bad for their kids. Hell I feel bad for all of them.  They're nice people. They're just absolutely completely moronic when it comes to money.

  I think that the majority of their friends are the same way so they think what's going on is normal.   Hell maybe that is the new normal.  A lot of the numbers coming out of Canada are brutal.   The debt levels of the average person is insane,  the savings rate is pathetic.  I believe the savings rate of my province is still negative. Home ownership is at record highs and most people have the vast majority of their net worth in their houses.   The economy is shaky and could easily get worse as housing slows down.
So many of my friends/acquaintances here in Victoria are exactly the same way. It would be comical if it wasn't so sad and common. A young family I know with 2 kids, a stay at home mom and a Dad who was largely unemployed the last 4 years but just started his own business-- just got a $100k settlement from a car accident. Rather than pay off credit card debt, or put it onto the mortgage (which is at $400k!... and his father in law took over title because they couldn't afford it anymore), they put that money into brand new exercise machines, a trip to hawaii, and unnecessarily fancy home renovations by a hired contractor. It makes me want to pull my hair out! Instead of improving their situation they just accumulated some more junk and are now in basically the same position as before.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: RetiredAt63 on June 09, 2013, 02:05:56 PM
Sounds like Gail could do a whole season of Money Morons just on Vancouver Island  ;-)
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Grigory on June 09, 2013, 03:05:17 PM
Wow. Just... wow. O_o

Strider3700, please tell us that this is just a very elaborate prank and part of your creative writing routine. Please?.. Because otherwise this really is like an ancient tragedy. Does that family post all of their financial woes on facebook or do you know it all because you're their friend? If it's the former, it's even sadder.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on June 10, 2013, 10:26:59 AM
Gail could easily do a whole season here. Housing is very expensive compared to the average income. Almost everyone got into the market a few years back so $300k mortgages with $50K income is a common situation.  This leads to some really ugly situations and mustachianism is necessary just to survive long term.

We know because they tell us. They post requests for prayers on facebook now and again usually related to illness or stress issues which when you know the rest of the story are related to money but no real money details.    They do post the spending on facebook though.   So we'll hear all about how they had to borrow money, are  having trouble at work, have a giant expense coming up.  The next day We'll see posts on facebook about the cool new cafe they took the kids to, or the planned vacation/get away and how with the coupon and only being a night or two it's really inexpensive.

My wife and I have been doing the math trying to fill in the details we haven't been told.  We put their before tax income at roughly $45k-50k now that both are working again.  The renters, there can be two, in the basement each provide $400 if it's just for the room  $800 if they're being fed.   At the moment they have a single $400 student. So another $3600.    They have mentioned that they'd be happy with my mortgage payment   which is $1300/month after property taxes are taken into account.  I believe they're closer to $1600 as their house cost more then mine and they had less to put down.

The have maxed out CC's they're making payments on.  I have no idea how much.

The broken down car is back on the road.  Apparently it'll be $900 to replace the fuel pump.  It works "most of the time" and only leaves them stranded now and again so they're driving it.  They are however wanting to replace it with a new car. 

I believe I've previously mentioned that the roof on the house needs replaced.  They'll be pulling the RRSP's to pay for it. Rather then just take the smack and pay the tax on the RRSP they want to take an RRSP loan to pay back the RRSP.   These are commonly offered by the banks to top up your RRSP's if you weren't smart and invested all year long and instead just need to put some in for the tax benefits at the last moment and don't actually have savings.   The math on emptying your RRSP then borrowing money to put it back in is not obvious but I fail to see how this comes out ahead. My only thought is they don't qualify for a normal loan to spend on the house but may qualify for RRSP loans.  Don't know.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Albert on June 13, 2013, 12:26:34 PM
Basically this couple are trying to live an upper middle class life on a lower middle class income. That can only end in a disaster in the longer run. It is an entertaining read, so please do continue posting updates. I know some people who are not good with money, but no one this extreme.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: kms on June 13, 2013, 03:27:42 PM
Maybe this is too harsh but I caught myself laughing at that blatant stupidity displayed by your friends. It surely doesn't sound like there's any way out other than bankruptcy.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on June 13, 2013, 03:42:11 PM
bankruptcy won't do away with their mortgage debt here.   If they give up/lose the house they still owe the difference after the house is sold and the proceeds are put to their mortgage.   It may take some pressure off but won't fix things.  When they do get things going their way they seem to always use the winfall to reward themselves and are instantly back in the hole.  I don't see any way out at all if they don't change their way of thinking.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: jamccain on June 14, 2013, 12:51:38 AM
I think you're neighbors are my parents....

My parents are SO BAD, they have gotten $100K windfalls TWICE and today they *might* have $20K in total net worth (in their 50s).  They paid $35K for their house back in 1983 and owe $90K on it today in 2013.  My mother is the caretaker for my grandmother...90 days after my grandmother passes away (which could be at any time) my parents will be in foreclosure on the house that should be paid off THIS MONTH if they had stuck to the original 30 year mortgage.  They have given 10% of everything they have ever made to the local church, but haven't paid themselves 1% in the way of retirement income.  They spend a lot of money because "they deserve it" or "it was on sale". 

I asked my mom if she won $10M in the lottery if she would be broke in five years...her answer "Yes."

My mom thinks I have money because I "got an education" and "can make money".  She likes to take FULL CREDIT for the fact both my sister and I got degrees.  She takes ZERO credit for being broke.  My freshman year in college my parents spent $30K on remodeling the house and landscaping (in the 90s).  They gave me $1K the entire year for one semester of my dorm room.  My sophomore year I didn't get a penny, not that they owed it to me.  By my Jr year, Uncle Sam ended up paying for the rest of it and grad school.  My point, is don't take ALL the credit for it because I'm pretty sure I did ALL the work.

We don't really discuss money anymore.  I can't handle the stress and their is NOTHING you can say to show them the light.  I honestly think for SOME people it's a mental deficiency.  Some people just don't know any better, the kind of people we're talking about just can't help it.  They are born to be poor. 
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: russianswinga on June 14, 2013, 10:08:40 AM
The unfortunate thing is that because they are your parents, when the **it hits the fan for them financially, you will probably end up footing the bill for making sure they don't starve in retirement.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: ender on June 27, 2013, 04:28:52 PM
Tell Christians who are morons with their money, "God gave you the book of Proverbs. It's not His fault you didn't read it."

As a Christian it bothers me to no end when people invoke the "God will take care of me" card when they are acting in utterly foolish and irresponsible manners, in particular when it's directly in contrast to what the Bible says about subjects. Money is one such subject.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: oldtoyota on June 27, 2013, 05:09:19 PM
That sounds frustrating. It was nice of your wife to try and reason with the people. I am judgmental (all the time), and I think humans are that way. It's completely normal. One just doesn't want to be a jerk, and you guys sound to me like you were not jerks at all.

When people do dumb things and then **complain**, that is the most frustrating.

I have a friend who will spend $50 on a dinner (ordering wine, of course) and then tell me she has saved nothing for retirement.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: jamccain on June 27, 2013, 10:19:40 PM
Tell Christians who are morons with their money, "God gave you the book of Proverbs. It's not His fault you didn't read it."

As a Christian it bothers me to no end when people invoke the "God will take care of me" card when they are acting in utterly foolish and irresponsible manners, in particular when it's directly in contrast to what the Bible says about subjects. Money is one such subject.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on September 14, 2013, 12:53:42 PM
After a quiet summer of nothing much to report things have taken a much more serious turn.

The car is back to breaking down.   They're thinking they have to get a new one.  By "new" I'm sure it'll be used but it'll probably be from a dealer and will likely be newer then anything I'm driving.   I think their old one is about the same age as my wifes which is way newer then mine.

The roof didn't get done. I don't know the reason why. I assumed money, they blamed timing as the guy that was going to do it got busy with work.

The above and beyond spending appeared to slow down. Having said that when we invited them over for a potluck/BBQ the meat they brought was amazing from a high end deli/butcher.  It made my generic grocery store stuff with the 50% off because it's about to go bad sticker look bad.   In the end we both had the same thing and they both looked about the same when cooked just I got twice as much for half the price after the discount.  If they eat like that all the time I'd go broke on the food bill

The husband has been complaining about his work schedule.  I would as well.  He's on the road a hell of a lot and pulling some shifts that are questionably legal.  Things like driving for 8 hours to get to the job site then working all night...   He'll be on the road more then he'll be home for the next few months.  I don't remember if I mentioned it but last spring he was thinking about taking camp jobs out of province.  THey decided against it because he'd be gone so much.    Now he's gone that much and making 1/3 the pay.

There was a family tragedy that affected the mom.  She's not been quite the same ever since.  Add that in with health issues, the stress of the money issues, everything else that's going on and she's starting to break down.   After mentioning it to a doctor they wanted to prescribe ativan to help deal with the anxiety and gave her deep breath exercises.   She later admitted to driving down the highway and seriously thinking about just driving across the median into oncoming traffic. So it's off to the psychologist for her.  I'm hoping that those costs are covered as they're low enough income.    How that is going to play out I don't know.   I'm guessing she'll be told to reduce her stress.  How to do that without cutting back on work and income I don't know. 

After spending the last few years wondering how the can keep things going when they're obviously living way beyond their means I think we're starting to see the end.   It's going to take a big miracle to save what they've got at this point. 
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: shortly on September 16, 2013, 05:05:53 PM
This has been kinda like watching a car wreck in slow motion.  You hate to see it happen to anyone but it's hard not to watch when it does.  Every time I hear of a story like this it makes me want to review my own situation to see if there's anything else I can cut... 

Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Adventine on September 17, 2013, 08:21:16 AM
After spending the last few years wondering how the can keep things going when they're obviously living way beyond their means I think we're starting to see the end.   It's going to take a big miracle to save what they've got at this point.

You're right, it seems like the party's finally coming to an end. But maybe they need to hit bottom first before they realize all the stupid shit they've done to themselves.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: kms on September 19, 2013, 02:04:35 AM
Sometimes rock bottom is the only way out, and in this case it sounds they're about to hit it.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on November 13, 2013, 02:54:36 PM
another 2 months have passed.   Apparently god does provide.   

Someone gave them a newer vehicle.  It's about 10 years old and has almost 300k on it but it's a dealer maintained Toyota so it's in my opinion almost brand new.   The person heard they were having car trouble and gave it to them rather then getting almost nothing as a trade in on a brand new one.  It's nicer then my vehicle. 

So I went good you're saved  that's awesome.  Not much else was heard.   Husband is out of town working almost constantly wife does her thing and I was thinking maybe they're digging there way out. Slowly,   probably so slow it'll never actually finish  but at least in the right direction.  I did find out they make just under 40k which frankly I have no idea how they can do what they do on that.

Now as an aside next summer my wife and I are going away to an event.  it's an all day thing, so head over the night before, leave the morning/afternoon after.   2 nights in a hotel in a rather expensive location.   It's one of those life goals of my wife (apparently my only life goal is to be able to say FU to the boss sit at home and have a beer while watching my money make more money then I need)     Anyway the trip will probably be $500-$600 plus hotel for two nights.   Being that we know a bunch of people going we shacked up with others and will cram as many people into where we're staying as we can get away with.  I think it's 4 couples.  that will cut down on the hotel rooms because if we got an individual one it would be $200 a night at least.  End of aside.

I just found out that the friend  was thinking about buying tickets to a concert 2 days before the event.  She was holding off until the husband hears about a different job he applied for.  Ok, even with the raise he may get you can't afford that.  I then heard she bought the tickets. Oh he got the job?   No they aren't hiring now she bought the tickets anyways.  I figured this was coming up because she was wanting babysitting while at the concert.  I was wrong.   She has signed her husband up to go to this event as well.   they'll go over and spend 5 days in their own hotel room, do the concert do the event and then come home.  Won't that be fun we can take the same boat back.

And now not a day later we hear she's being laid off.  Work dried up at the job she had found. 

Should be an interesting infuriating christmas season.






Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: brewer12345 on November 13, 2013, 03:01:25 PM
(apparently my only life goal is to be able to say FU to the boss sit at home and have a beer while watching my money make more money then I need)   

Hahahahaha!!!!  I love it.  Never seen it put down so succinctly.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: acroy on November 13, 2013, 03:08:31 PM
another 2 months have passed.   Apparently god does provide.   
 

Should be an interesting infuriating christmas season.

LOL - get new friends. These are raising your blood pressure & costing years off your life!!
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Norrie on November 14, 2013, 07:58:45 AM
Ah, sweet Jesus.
I will admit to being a total booger-eating moron (thanks, Frankie's Girl! Totally fits) with our money from about 1996-2010. Many of these stories of shame about friends could have applied to us perfectly, and I really don't have a justification for it. The best that I can say is that we lived with our heads solidly buried in sand, and our lives were so shit with health crises that we wanted any joy out of life that we could find, even when it meant spending stupid amounts of money that we didn't have. I'm sure many of our friends had tons of WTF are they thinking conversations.

But look at us now! We're still learning, but we've got our shit pretty tight. So it is totally possible that one day your friends may pull a 180.

It makes me sad for the kids, because history has a way of repeating itself. Now that our kids have learned the basic social skills and are awesome humans, we feel like our biggest responsibility to them is teaching them money management. Our daughter is old enough to remember the dark days, but she's also mature enough to understand compound interest.

It seems like one of the main problems with your friends situation is that they keep being bailed out (as were we). They need to fall flat and hard on their asses and reach rock bottom to start to take things more seriously.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on December 15, 2013, 01:54:42 PM
Another month and a serious need to vent.

The friends have family who recently had a tragedy. Very sad for everyone involved. That family got an apartment but are on welfare and as the friends told us they have nothing and only have $150 left over each month after paying for rent.  For christmas my wife and I tend to pick a family in need and donate to them.  This year my wife decided it would be that family and went off on a campaign to help them out.  I was not optimistic as this family made their own problems. Call my judgemental but went you've fried your own brain to the point you can't even read anymore  I'm not overly wanting to help you out.   

So today was the drop off day of what we collected.   We were told they had nothing so we got couches, and furniture and a TV and close to $1k in food and gift cards. It wouldn't all fit in 2 trucks. We get there and take the couch up and I see the apartment for the first time.    Some peoples definitions of "nothing" are radically different then mine.     That place had more and better furniture then I had until my 3rd year of owning a house.    I had to move 3 sets of speakers to get the couch in.    On the whiteboard was a note about how cable is being hooked up on friday. I don't have cable to this day.  I went from not overjoyed to you have to be fucking kidding me.   

I see it as we've just spent the last month busting our ass doing charity for a family that didn't deserve it and didn't need it.

Anyway I'm done with this entire thing.   As was pointed out by others a long time ago  these people aren't  worth the stress to know.   My wife is friends with them and I don't see her writing them off but we'll see.   My wife is almost always optimistic but even she was pissed off to the point of crying.

Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Paul der Krake on December 15, 2013, 02:37:39 PM
So what happened to everything you brought over to their house?
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on December 15, 2013, 03:58:03 PM
left it there.  It was collected for them so they got it.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: nikki on December 15, 2013, 05:29:06 PM
Another month and a serious need to vent.


So today was the drop off day of what we collected.   We were told they had nothing so we got couches, and furniture and a TV and close to $1k in food and gift cards. It wouldn't all fit in 2 trucks. We get there and take the couch up and I see the apartment for the first time.    Some peoples definitions of "nothing" are radically different then mine.     That place had more and better furniture then I had until my 3rd year of owning a house.    I had to move 3 sets of speakers to get the couch in.    On the whiteboard was a note about how cable is being hooked up on friday. I don't have cable to this day.  I went from not overjoyed to you have to be fucking kidding me.   

I see it as we've just spent the last month busting our ass doing charity for a family that didn't deserve it and didn't need it.

OMFG.

I would have walked out with everything you brought and told them off. That's the type of holiday cheer they deserve.

I really have no patience with and have massive difficulty understanding the "booger eating morons." I'm struggling to find some sense of inner peace so I can be around my own wasteful family for a couple weeks next month, so I guess I'm *trying* to be slightly less judgmental, but THIS IS RIDICULOUS.

It reminds me of my gut reaction to seeing a Facebook picture of this little girl my cousin adopted playing on an iPad. They've adopted three of his wife's relatives because the mom is imprisoned, and asked a couple months ago to please send some Hello Kitty things from Asia for the oldest girl (even though she's Japanese and I'm in Korea...). I did this, spending around $140 for the items and shipping, AND THEY NEVER PAID ME BACK. I tried to justify it by reasoning that taking on three new children (soon to be four--the imprisoned mom is pregnant) was a greater expense than they could handle, but I don't have an iPad. They do.

$140 is seriously over 25% of my monthly expenses; maybe even 40%.

Where's my money?

And you spent WAY more than $140!!! Arrggg...


Edited for additions/corrections.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on December 15, 2013, 06:10:34 PM
Just to be clear we didn't spend 1k.   We convinced family and friends to donate 1k worth of stuff.   We had some financial outlay in this but the vast majority of our contribution was in time and gas picking things up and delivering it.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: nikki on December 15, 2013, 06:42:55 PM
Just to be clear we didn't spend 1k.   We convinced family and friends to donate 1k worth of stuff.   We had some financial outlay in this but the vast majority of our contribution was in time and gas picking things up and delivering it.

Ahh gotcha.

That makes it only slightly less enraging.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: MoneyCat on December 15, 2013, 06:57:03 PM
 Most people demonstrating this complete idiocy when it comes to money are suffering from some kind of mental illness, whether depression or something else. 
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: aglassman on December 16, 2013, 09:15:00 AM
The "we deserve it" spending is one of my biggest pet peeves.  It has such a connotation of entitlement.

Also, sorry to hear about your charity fail.  I've noticed that most people in low income housing or on a lot of assistance ALWAYS have cable / dish TV.  Too bad the government doesn't hand out face punches in some of these cases!
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: CommonCents on December 16, 2013, 09:38:37 AM
left it there.  It was collected for them so they got it.

Oh, I would have not delivered it, assuming people donated based on false pretenses and they might have reconsidered their gifts had they known the full situation.  (I would have called the donors if possible to confirm and then given to another needy family.)
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Paul der Krake on December 16, 2013, 09:45:04 AM
Grrr. It's anecdotes like this that make regular folks discard the needs of the truly needy, "look, all the poor are freeloaders and lazy and stupid!"

Shame on that family.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Mrs.FamilyFinances on December 16, 2013, 11:39:09 PM
Another month and a serious need to vent.

The friends have family who recently had a tragedy. Very sad for everyone involved. That family got an apartment but are on welfare and as the friends told us they have nothing and only have $150 left over each month after paying for rent.  For christmas my wife and I tend to pick a family in need and donate to them.  This year my wife decided it would be that family and went off on a campaign to help them out.  I was not optimistic as this family made their own problems. Call my judgemental but went you've fried your own brain to the point you can't even read anymore  I'm not overly wanting to help you out.   

So today was the drop off day of what we collected.   We were told they had nothing so we got couches, and furniture and a TV and close to $1k in food and gift cards. It wouldn't all fit in 2 trucks. We get there and take the couch up and I see the apartment for the first time.    Some peoples definitions of "nothing" are radically different then mine.     That place had more and better furniture then I had until my 3rd year of owning a house.    I had to move 3 sets of speakers to get the couch in.    On the whiteboard was a note about how cable is being hooked up on friday. I don't have cable to this day.  I went from not overjoyed to you have to be fucking kidding me.   

I see it as we've just spent the last month busting our ass doing charity for a family that didn't deserve it and didn't need it.

Anyway I'm done with this entire thing.   As was pointed out by others a long time ago  these people aren't  worth the stress to know.   My wife is friends with them and I don't see her writing them off but we'll see.   My wife is almost always optimistic but even she was pissed off to the point of crying.

You are more kind hearted than I am. I would have canceled the whole thing and left with all the collected items.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Self-employed-swami on December 18, 2013, 02:44:46 AM
Wow.  I can't believe that 'having nothing' means you had to make room for your, very generous, gifts.

Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: grantmeaname on December 18, 2013, 05:48:26 AM
Most people demonstrating this complete idiocy when it comes to money are suffering from some kind of mental illness, whether depression or something else.
I don't know about that. Plenty of vapid consumerists don't have clinical depression, and plenty of folks with clinical depression manage to run their financial lives smoothly.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Megatron on December 18, 2013, 12:52:48 PM
this is like a slow train wreck where you can't look away.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on February 04, 2014, 12:42:59 PM
Well after hearing nothing at all since Christmas (my wife is now no longer wanting to speak to them although occasionally feels guilty and will talk with the other wife)  we saw an update on facebook.  I guess it's been a year because it's time for another cross continent conference/vacation for the wife.    Last time they were in way better money shape but couldn't afford groceries on the return.  This time well I have no idea what the fuck they're thinking.  I haven't heard if the dad will need to take time off work to watch the kids since mom is away "networking".   

And more posts.  She's heading on the road to do sales parties anywhere and everywhere bribing everyone with free stuff if they'll host the party.  Perhaps I'm completely wrong but I don't think she makes much on these sales at all.  No enough to justify all of the travel and so on expenses. 
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Self-employed-swami on February 05, 2014, 09:20:01 AM
The year I did home jewellery parties (mainly so I could earn all the free jewellery myself) I earned just enough income, to cover my travel expenses (I traveled across the country on vacation, and did a party for a friend, just for the express purpose of being able to write off the expenses against income earned).

I made 30% of anything I sold, so it was decent, for the purpose I was using it for (and I came out ahead, only because of the free jewellery).
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Gerard on February 18, 2014, 07:19:05 AM
"God helps those that help themselves."

In fairness to religious folks, the Bible doesn't actually say this. In fact, it's kind of the opposite of the teachings of that Jesus guy.

I'm pretty sure *you're* not using it in a mean-spirited way, Frankies Girl, based on your other posts (plus you get bonus points for "booger-eating moron"), but I do hear it from some "Christians" who are a little deficient in the love-your-neighbour category.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: momo on February 21, 2014, 09:41:09 PM
Another month and a serious need to vent.

The friends have family who recently had a tragedy. Very sad for everyone involved. That family got an apartment but are on welfare and as the friends told us they have nothing and only have $150 left over each month after paying for rent.  For christmas my wife and I tend to pick a family in need and donate to them.  This year my wife decided it would be that family and went off on a campaign to help them out.  I was not optimistic as this family made their own problems. Call my judgemental but went you've fried your own brain to the point you can't even read anymore  I'm not overly wanting to help you out.   

So today was the drop off day of what we collected.   We were told they had nothing so we got couches, and furniture and a TV and close to $1k in food and gift cards. It wouldn't all fit in 2 trucks. We get there and take the couch up and I see the apartment for the first time.    Some peoples definitions of "nothing" are radically different then mine.     That place had more and better furniture then I had until my 3rd year of owning a house.    I had to move 3 sets of speakers to get the couch in.    On the whiteboard was a note about how cable is being hooked up on friday. I don't have cable to this day.  I went from not overjoyed to you have to be fucking kidding me.   

I see it as we've just spent the last month busting our ass doing charity for a family that didn't deserve it and didn't need it.

Anyway I'm done with this entire thing.   As was pointed out by others a long time ago  these people aren't  worth the stress to know.   My wife is friends with them and I don't see her writing them off but we'll see.   My wife is almost always optimistic but even she was pissed off to the point of crying.

You are both far too kind. Their behavior is beyond stupid.  May we suggest a total cleanse from your life?  We would've left,.not said a word and donated the items to a real family in need.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: golfer44 on February 21, 2014, 10:14:33 PM
Is the wife doing some sort of mutli level marketing? Like skincare products etc
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on February 21, 2014, 10:40:53 PM
no cosmetics but yes.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: JamesAt15 on February 23, 2014, 11:29:59 PM
"God helps those that help themselves."

In fairness to religious folks, the Bible doesn't actually say this. In fact, it's kind of the opposite of the teachings of that Jesus guy.

I'm pretty sure *you're* not using it in a mean-spirited way, Frankies Girl, based on your other posts (plus you get bonus points for "booger-eating moron"), but I do hear it from some "Christians" who are a little deficient in the love-your-neighbour category.

Perhaps I should just let this thread-dog lie, but the first passage that comes to mind (from my long ago sunday school days) is Matthew 6:28 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_6:28).

    And why take ye thought for raiment?
    Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow;
    they toil not, neither do they spin:
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on February 24, 2014, 01:26:00 AM
An update.   They're off at a concert out of town for the weekend.   Must be nice.     I was ignoring that as it's technically possible to do that trip sort of on the cheap ie a couple hundred (they won't).     What I found far more interesting was their cat got sick and needed to go to the vet.   To cover the bill they cashed in part of their RRSP.   I don't know if they was $100 or $1000 vet bill.  If It was $1000 then the cat should have been put down. if it was $100 then why don't you have $100...

Now that I'm typing this I think I've figured out where the money came from to go to the concert.  If you're emptying your retirement savings why not just take a bit to head out for the weekend as well...

Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Quark on February 25, 2014, 08:12:15 AM
You wouldn't spend $1000 to help your cat? That's cold. What Mustachian doesn't have $1k laying around?
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on February 25, 2014, 09:55:44 AM
Did you read this whole thread?    This family borrows money to pay for milk for their kids.  They shouldn't have a cat   they can't afford it.   
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Cheddar Stacker on February 25, 2014, 10:12:10 AM
I have an 11 year old dog, and I'm sorry but there's no way I'm spending $1,000 to help him at this point. He's had a good life. I'm with Strider here, they have no business taking care of a cat when they can't take care of themselves.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: G-dog on February 26, 2014, 07:35:39 PM
@strider3700. Thanks for posting the updates over time.  Certainly illustrates a pattern of behavior vs. a temporary lapse of judgement.  Also, for a newbie like me, it made this a very easy thread to read and catch up with some other MMMs.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: golfer44 on March 20, 2014, 06:37:10 AM
This thread is compelling in a rubbernecking way.

Absolutely. One of the most viewed threads on this entire forum is "overheard at work".
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: AllChoptUp on March 20, 2014, 08:59:14 AM
This thread is compelling in a rubbernecking way.

Absolutely. One of the most viewed threads on this entire forum is "overheard at work".

Confession: I am addicted to that thread.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on June 11, 2014, 02:07:34 PM
It's update time.

I'm thinking of taking up religion.  Miracles do occur apparently.

The husband had been working out of town.  He was away a good 3 weeks out of every month.  As well his boss was screwing him.  Paying him for time worked not time driving the hundreds of miles between jobs. It was brutal.  Anyways the husband landed an interview for avery good union position with a large corporation.  He got the job but it involves out of town training for a couple of months coming home for about a week at a time then gone for 3 or 4  weeks.

 Whatever  this is the type of job that if you don't royally screw up (and nothing suggests to me that he's incompetent when it comes to work) you're set for life.   He's also getting paid to take the training.  This will be ongoing until almost winter with a month break inbetween training sessions.  That month may suck,  I'm pretty sure he won't be paid during that time so he'll need to float the bills somehow but after that it's train until he's on the job and making a pretty good wage.  Way more then he did before.   

So he's back for 10 days for the first time in almost 4 weeks.   Things are going well in the training.  And Then I find out that the wife is really upset.  She had really really wanted to go away on a big vacation during these 10 days he's home.   Spend a week somewhere sunny but the timing didn't work out.

ummm.... ok.    Apparently all of the other financial problems haven't bit them in the ass.  Oh and it's property tax time here.  last I heard they still owe last years.  This years was a shock to me so they're going to be getting an even nastier bill...  lucky for them the city has a policy of outbidding everyone one buildings that go to auction in town then working with the homeowners to keep them in them...  They've got a few more years of non payment before that becomes an issue.

 
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: 2ndTimer on August 28, 2014, 12:34:05 PM
This has the sort of horrid fascination that I used to find in the Spanish language soap operas I used improve my language skills.  My spouse and I are still muttering:

"Maria Clara; tan pura, tan innocente, tan embarazada."  (Maria Clara; so pure, so innocent, so pregnant.)
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: libertarian4321 on August 28, 2014, 06:12:12 PM
I've got nothing for you except nods of agreement, but this part cracked me the hell up.

(If my atheist ass hears god will provide from them one more time I'm going to lose it)

May his noodly appendage touch you with goodness this holiday season. rAmen.

I was an atheist, until God (The Flying Spaghetti Monster) touched me with his noodly apendage.

Now, I am a Christian.  For the FSM so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

However, I do not believe in the "God will provide" or "God wills it" nonsense spouted by lazy people of all religions as an excuse for inaction.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: jprince7827 on September 01, 2014, 02:33:58 PM
Wow, what an amazing sequence.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on September 24, 2014, 12:11:17 PM
Update time.   

my wife and the other wife went out to do a bit of back to school shopping/grab a coffee/get out of the house.   The other wife got a NSF when attempting to pay $7 for school paper.   I've never had a NSF but don't you get dinged something like $30 in penalty for having done it?

Later we heard that the other wife may have found another job while the kids are in school and just for the run up to christmas.  This is an absolute no brainer.   Take the job unless something better becomes available.  It's a basic retail job in a higher end niche shop.    Her only concern is that she'll spend her entire pay cheque in the store so her husband wants her to work out some sort of agreement that she can only spend a certain percentage in the store.   The store sells high end linen, towels and crap like that....
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: justajane on September 24, 2014, 12:56:35 PM
This thread is full of comedic gold, from Frankie's "booger eating morons" to the quip about failing to read Proverbs. Good stuff.

Your friends remind me of this couple at our church who was always begging for free things and services on our church's listserv. They were in seminary and now raising support to be missionaries, so I guess they thought this type of shameless begging was okay, since they are supposedly doing "God's work." What irks me the most is that their begging usually worked. They managed to snag a free apartment for a summer that was intended for very low income people like women transitioning from the homeless shelter nearby. Then we get an e-mail requesting to borrow or have window units, preferably four (!!!) to keep the place cool. Here are some of the other things they have begged for: a bike for their daughter (excellent condition, preferably new), other peoples' air miles, someone to drive their car over 1,000 miles (so the wife and kids could fly), free lodging (at least 3-4 times), etc. etc. They have since left our church, but I nonetheless got to see another friend on Facebook take up their begging for them. This time they need to borrow a VERY RELIABLE minivan for three months.

One quibble with the OP. Upthread you used the phrase "must be nice." Can we agree to retire that phrase? In my experience it is more often than not used by non-Mustachians towards those of us who saved to pay for something. My sister who is pathetic with money uses it all the time.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Mrs. J on September 24, 2014, 06:48:38 PM
It's my understanding that if she was using a debit card and got an NSF, it just means the transaction won't go through and there's no penalty (other than utter mortification), since no trading of goods and services actually took place.

Please never stop updating this thread.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: odput on September 26, 2014, 06:48:57 AM
Please never stop updating this thread.

+1!
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: acroy on September 26, 2014, 08:14:22 AM
Epic thread!! :)

My Christian ethics insert:
"And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"

enabling/rewarding the neighbor's foolish lifestyle choices is bad, bad dude! 'False charity'. We all know moochers... generally nice people, other folks want to help them out. The harder (but truly loving) thing to do is not enable it.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: jka468 on September 26, 2014, 10:48:49 AM
I stopped reading when I saw that your friend seems to be older than 16 and still posts self-indulgent pity party crap on facebook for her entire network to see. That's a glaring sign of this person being unable to be helped.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on September 26, 2014, 11:36:44 AM
They're almost 40.   

Yesterday the wife called my wife crying because she feels worthless after having to borrow money from her parents to pay bills.     They did however both just sign up to my gym promising to pay the gym next month....  They did something else on the promise to pay method but I don't remember what.   Total deferred cost is likely to be $300.     I just can't imagine being in that situation.

The good news is the husband has been getting overtime and thanks to the great job that's paying double time.    He's working every second of it that he can get.   

My guess is they're too far into the hole to get out though.   
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: iris lily on October 07, 2014, 08:31:18 PM


My guess is they're too far into the hole to get out though.

I could send your friends a check for everything they owe, wiping out their debt and they would be in debt again in 6 months.

They are in the hole because that's where they are comfortable.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on April 06, 2015, 04:11:18 PM
It's been a long long time since the last update.   With holiday weekends you run into people you don't see very often.  Guess who I ran into...

They found rot in the floor of one of their bathrooms.   bathroom was from the 90's and looked a little dated.  Rather then pull the toilet and maybe the vanity, cut out the rot, patch with new ply and then lay down new lino they gutted the entire thing to the studs cutting the tub in half to remove it.   They then went shopping and realized that new tubs are kind of expensive and everything else makes this project really expensive.   So they put plywood down to fix the hole and then locked the door to that room.   Lucky they had an extra bathroom.

I also found out they went to some company that specialized in debt.   I'm not sure how it works but they won't be declaring bankruptcy, they don't have to give everything up and 3/4 of the debt they have will be forgiven.  They'll be making payments on the remaining 25%.   They're trying to figure out how to get the roof on the house added to the consolidated debt even though that hasn't been spent yet.   I also found out that for the last 3 years they've not  paid a penny towards principal.  $800-$900 a month in interest only payments.   I just sat there drinking my beer nodding my head.   I can't even picture how shit like this happens.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: G-dog on April 06, 2015, 04:30:29 PM
Omg! How does a floor rot out in 20-25 years? How do they not see their pattern of crisis and HAIR ON F'ING FIRE?
It boggles the mind....
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on April 06, 2015, 04:31:58 PM
leaky seal on the toilet.  It's not a rare place to get damage to a floor.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Indexer on April 06, 2015, 05:11:34 PM
  I can't even picture how shit like this happens.

I think its pretty obvious.... read this thread ;). 
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: 11ducks on April 07, 2015, 12:06:55 AM
I love this thread. See if you can convince them that the bathtub can be glued back together.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Cookie78 on April 07, 2015, 09:22:47 AM
Wow I just read the entire thread from the beginning. How depressing.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: firelight on April 07, 2015, 09:36:20 AM
How can a normal person be encouraged to save when people like these spend like there is no tomorrow and YET don't face any dire consequences?? Our laws are at fault - bankruptcy shouldn't be used to fund stupid purchases.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: partgypsy on April 07, 2015, 09:51:28 AM
jamcain, others it actually makes me feel a little better hearing these stories. My parent's finances are also shakesperian in scope. Parents were working class, worked up to upper middle class, Dad retired early, but then drove himself crazy being at home with nothing to do, so took money out of retirement accounts, sold restaurants that provided monthly income, and invested in a couple investments, one which failed, the other the investors ran away with 100's of thousands and then declared bankruptcy. Dad forced to go back to work. Somewhere around this time parents divorce, Mom gets the house. Actually a good asset, back in the early 90's worth 225, 250K with 20K left on the mortgage. Idea was she could sell the house as it was only her living there (4 bedroom, 2 1/2 bath in expensive neighborhood) that she could live or invest that money.
Mom still working part time, pays off mortgage, house appreciates even more.
Dad works his way out of debt, has someone invest in a business with him, does well enough he can buy other investor out and has his own business again.
 
Then in early 2000's things hit the fan (2004 or so?). Mom's house is valued so much, we are urging her to sell! and retire. Houses on her block selling for 500, 600K. Instead she feels so rich she takes out a heloc, starts spending her equity. Also progidal son moves back in with her, a complete leech.
Dad is wondering why people aren't going out to eat so much, restaurant not doing as well.  We (his kids) urge him, just sell the restaurant and retire, you would have a good income between the proceeds of that and soc security (he didn't take until age 72). Instead he decides to double down, borrow money to open up another restaurant which is a white elephant with high operating expenses, lease. Housing bust occurs. Restaurants are closing left and right. Because of high operating costs the 2nd restaurant closes, but he cannot find someone to take over lease so he is on hook for paying  lease every month. After a year force to sell original restaurant to pay off debt. Also lost his townhome as he borrowed money from it to pay for business debt.
My Dad did not have the retirement he envisioned. But at least has social security and still works part time  and so can make it in his little studio apartment.

Mom retires a 2nd time. Each time she retires, cashes out her pension as a lump sum. Instead of using pension proceeds to fix house and sell, spends it on living expenses and then taps heloc for more money. He ss is 550 a month, but her property taxes alone are 7K a year. No basic maintenance on house as "she can't afford it." Also this year she also filled out paperwork to put off paying property taxes, but will have to pay them, with interest (5-7% a year?) at the time of sale. At this time, she still has enough equity to sell the house and downsize to either small house/townhome or rent, but that window is rapidly closing.
My mother since she has retires, sits around, pays for everything for my brother (including premium cable and Xboxes), yet does nothing towards selling house, as every option she deems as beneath her and also my brother doesn't want to move. WTF? It honestly keeps me up at night what she is doing and will soon be both without any money, or a place to live, but she seems unconcerned.   
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: partgypsy on April 07, 2015, 11:14:26 AM
Sorry for hijacking thread, but from other mustachians, how do you handle it? I have lived my life separate from my parents since I graduated college and moved away, unlike a number of my siblings who are often emeshed in enabling or codependent behavior. But I fear that if mother or sibling(s) become homeless, I will be expected to pick up the pieces, provide money and or housing. I also don't like seeing them suffer, but feel helpless to avert the trainwreck.  I don't really have the resources to help them materially. What would you do?
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Elderwood17 on April 07, 2015, 11:19:05 AM
Wow I just read the entire thread from the beginning. How depressing.
So did I.  It would make a better reality show than any reality show I have heard of!  It is a cross between a tragedy and a comedy, but whatever it is keep the updates coming please.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Pooplips on April 07, 2015, 11:28:22 AM
Awesome thread. I'm amazed they have made it this long. Can't wait to read another update.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: MgoSam on April 07, 2015, 11:46:53 AM
I just found out that the friend  was thinking about buying tickets to a concert 2 days before the event.  She was holding off until the husband hears about a different job he applied for.  Ok, even with the raise he may get you can't afford that.  I then heard she bought the tickets. Oh he got the job?   No they aren't hiring now she bought the tickets anyways.  I figured this was coming up because she was wanting babysitting while at the concert.  I was wrong.   She has signed her husband up to go to this event as well.   they'll go over and spend 5 days in their own hotel room, do the concert do the event and then come home.  Won't that be fun we can take the same boat back.


This may sound crazy but this isn't uncommon. I can't recall the psychological principle but researchers did experiments were students were given the situation that they took a final and were planning to go on vacation. The question was if they would take the vacation if they passed the final or if they didn't pass the final and when they would book the vacation. Turned out that for the majority of those that would book the vacation regardless they still waited to hear about their final results. I may not have explained it well, if I can find the study I'll post it.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: BMEPhDinCO on April 07, 2015, 01:34:59 PM
Whenever I feel insecure about how much I'm saving or spending - I can just check this thread out!  Although I do have to wonder at how much y'all's friends seem to tell each other about finances, I almost never hear anything from my friends - except the financially responsible ones sharing their latest wins!
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: drak0017 on April 07, 2015, 02:13:51 PM
How does one detect a leaky seal, ideally before rot, besides falling through the floor while on the throne?

It is my understanding that seals on toilets generally last about 10 years before they start to leak.  To be on the safe side, I would replace them every 9 years or so to avoid any issues.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: 11ducks on April 07, 2015, 04:40:20 PM
Commenting to follow
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Zamboni on April 07, 2015, 07:31:28 PM
Friends are easy to ignore.  Family, not so much.  My own family has a few financial train wrecks.  So far only one couple (a distant relation, which was awkward) has directly begged for money.  Feeling more amazement than guilt, I declined.  Somehow they didn't lose their house despite my cold heartedness, so either someone else helped them or they found some other way to weasel out of facing their years of horrible decisions.

Whenever I feel insecure about how much I'm saving or spending - I can just check this thread out!  Although I do have to wonder at how much y'all's friends seem to tell each other about finances, I almost never hear anything from my friends - except the financially responsible ones sharing their latest wins!

BMEPhD, I would guess that your friends and colleagues are smarter than the average bears.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: thurston howell iv on April 14, 2015, 07:35:05 AM
First of all, Epic thread!  (though it makes my head hurt to read this...)

Secondly, I can relate... Being or trying to be a good mustachian can be a lonely endeavor.

Most all of my friends (now- mostly former friends) where all ridiculous spenders. One of my closest friends once told me (when I asked him if he was saving anything) that his goal was to cash his check on Friday and be broke by Monday. He wanted to enjoy his money and not worry about the future. We went to some steak place and I ordered a reasonable meal. He made a show of ordering the most expensive item on the menu and only ate half of it. When they asked him if he wanted a doggy bag, he scoffed and said that was for poor people and that they could just throw it away...

My family, to some degree, is nearly the same. Spending for the sake of spending. My uncle recently turned 80 and he's still working! Why? Because he's too deep in debt to stop. The same uncle and aunt have 3 new cars (one of them was for their daughter).

It seems like all my efforts to gently nudge these people in a different direction is met with disdain. My sister rarely talks to me- she thinks I lecture too much. I do (not all lecturey, at least I don;t think it's lecturey) but I do it from a place of love. I try to show her how to fix the mess she's made but she lets it go in one ear and out the other.  Her method, while not religious, works similarly. I call it the "stand here with my hand out until some one gives me something" method. It actually works! 

My sister purchased a car when she was 18. It was a junker. I tried to help her with it. She didn't care. Even "tricked" me into fixing her brakes (an emergency that I had to stop what I was doing to fix)- the pads were gone and the caliper was digging into the rotor (it was supposed to be so she could go to a job interview)- The next day she was off to some amusement park two hours away!  When that car died my parents gave her a car along with who knows how much money for an apartment. Her and her husband proceeded to trash the car. She moved. His parents gave them a car. Also trashed. Eventually, she purchased a car on her own - she was proud that she had managed to do it on her own. When I asked if she got a good deal (knowing that I'm a car guy and would have scoured the planet to find her the best deal)- she told me "probably not but, I did it on my own"- I had to bite my tongue. (turned out that she signed a 96 month contract!!! WTF?!?!?)   Eventually, she gave the car back to the dealer and my parents gave her another car. When that one broke, they gave her another car...   See a pattern??

And I get grief because I'm lecturing...

Luckily, the whole family knows I'm a hard-ass when it comes to money and while they all think we're rich (we're both professionals), no one dares call me to ask for money. I guess there's a good side to it after all.



Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Zamboni on April 14, 2015, 07:59:59 PM
First of all, Epic thread!  (though it makes my head hurt to read this...)

 (turned out that she signed a 96 month contract!!! WTF?!?!?)   


Wow, I had no idea one could get such a long note on a car!
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 14, 2015, 10:01:07 PM
lol this is hilarious. I can't believe this thread has been indirectly chronicling the financial woes of a family over the course of the past 2-3 years. Crazy how fast things can go downhill. May this constantly serve as a great reminder and warning about how *not* to live life. Yeeesh.

 On a side note: I'm incredibly lucky to have married my wife, who it turns out is quite low-maintenance and low-key when it comes to wants and needs. She may not be the best at getting crazy good deals or having the most keen frugal sense, but when it comes to wants and needs she is way more discerning than I ever could be. I think being extremely discerning of wants/needs is on the same level as being keenly frugal. Because if you can convince yourself that you don't want OR need something, that's X dollars less that you spent regardless.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: thurston howell iv on April 15, 2015, 06:53:25 AM


Wow, I had no idea one could get such a long note on a car!
[/quote]

Me neither. And what made it worse was that it was for something like a 10 year old hyundai with 100k miles!
Some of these places really take advantage of people.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Aila Jade on April 18, 2015, 06:01:02 PM
Great thread. I have family members like your neighbors. Just a note to party gypsy, don't  even think about ruining your financial  future  to enable your family's bad decisions ! Move far away if you need to!
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Candace on April 24, 2015, 01:34:52 PM
I just read this thread for the first time.

My jaw is dirty from dragging on the floor.

I don't understand how people can incur bad debts over and over and not pay for it, by at least losing their house and having to rent or move in with family. Seriously, how does this work? I am familiar with the pattern of people declaring bankruptcy repeatedly and getting their debts wiped out, though I don't see why our laws would support that either.

A serious question. Does anyone reading this have knowledge of the laws and rules that apply to people to incur debts they can't pay? What has to happen for someone to get their wages garnished? What has to happen for creditors to not issue cards? I have a vague knowledge that there are certain types of debt that are (unfairly) harder to get out of than others, like student loans. But...doesn't something have to happen sometime to these folks?

It just reminds me of the people (at least I've heard of them, whether it's true or not) who bought too much house during the run-up in prices, and then got bailouts when they went upside-down. And of people who can abandon their houses when it "makes sense" to do so. How can those people ever get a W-2 job again without their creditors getting their money?

I know I'm rambling and asking a lot of questions. But I'm basically asking whether our "system" is set up AT ALL to force consequences on people who promise to pay and then don't. Does anyone know? Maybe this should be in a new thread.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: gimp on April 24, 2015, 08:28:41 PM
Bankruptcy makes it exceedingly hard to borrow for some time, or borrow at reasonable rates. That's the punishment. Some things can't be cleared through bankruptcy, most can.

("But why do some lenders still lend to them?" Because they calculate the risk vs reward and charge appropriately; they wouldn't do it if it wasn't usually profitable.)

If you were able to declare bankruptcy then continue paying for everything you needed with cash, you would have essentially no punishment. Then again, it's arguably a business decision, not a moral one; you don't care about the bank and the bank doesn't care about you.

With that said, certain jobs you will lose, or may lose, for going bankrupt. Generally speaking, many jobs in the financial area - because you clearly don't know what you're doing and/or are a bad example - and many jobs that need security clearance - someone with money problems is much easier to bribe and/or may take their own fanciful action to try to turn a buck, and is therefore a liability.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: SwordGuy on April 28, 2015, 08:21:35 PM
I have a vague knowledge that there are certain types of debt that are (unfairly) harder to get out of than others, like student loans.

That would be "Vague and Incorrect" for $200.

The question is:  What type of loan funded by hard working US Taxpayers was so routinely not paid back by so many people that the laws were changed to prevent them from discharging the loans in bankruptcy, among other penalties?

And the answer would be "student loans" in case you haven't had your morning cup of coffee yet...
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: minority_finance_mo on April 28, 2015, 09:57:11 PM
This reminds me of my cousin, always posting on Facebook her (self-imposed) financial ills and then saying God will provide. Wanted to slap her a couple times but restrained myself..

My dear mother's go-to is "God will provide."

Wasn't there a passage in the bible about God helping those that help themselves, or am I just going crazy here?
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: slugline on April 28, 2015, 10:14:53 PM
Wasn't there a passage in the bible about God helping those that help themselves, or am I just going crazy here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helps_those_who_help_themselves

I'll allow you a third option. :)
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Marus on April 30, 2015, 07:05:30 AM
Let me tell you the story of Stu and Molly (names changed to protect identities ).  Both come from relatively poor Vermont farming families.  I don't mean this as a knock on them.  Most farmers do it because they love the way of life and they don't want to have to work at a desk job or in a factory.  Good for them.   Stu's dad is frugal and responsible.  Stu's mom is awful, but luckily she's been out of the picture for a while.  Molly's parents took out a reverse mortgage and used the money to buy NASCAR memorabilia.  I think that says it all.

Needless to say, Molly is absolutely dreadful with money.  She's obsessed with getting new animals and will often just show up with a new dog, cat, duck or even horse.  They've got five dogs now and all of them are awful because no one bothered to train them and they never go for walks.

A couple years ago Molly decided she wanted to start up a bakery.  She didn't have a real business plan or anything.  Everyone in her family told her this was an awful idea but she didn't listen.  She had no savings of course, so she used debt to buy all the equipment.  Needless to say the business went belly up within six months.

Recently Molly decided she needed a new car so she went and got a new Nissan with no money down.  She's agreed to pay $350/month for the next five years but they'll be lucky if they even get one payment out of her before they have  to repossess it.

The worst part is a ton of their relatives have tried to help them out over the years.  All walked away feeling completely disrespected and used.  Now they're living with Stu's dad who is one of the most patient people I've ever met and even he's getting fed up.  They hardly ever clean so their presence is like a blight on the place.

Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on May 04, 2015, 02:25:39 PM
TL;DR;

My favorite quote is : "Build a man a fire and he will be warm for one night.  Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life."

I have friends / family in the same boat. I ignore as much as possible, but when pressed will tell them that I spent only 10% of my annual take home on my car. I don't take extravagant cruise ship vacations. I shop the bargain bin. I buy clothes at goodwill. That's how my net worth is 250k and theirs is a pickup truck. Keeping up with the joneses is a dangerous game.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Shamantha on May 05, 2015, 03:35:26 AM
TL;DR;

My favorite quote is : "Build a man a fire and he will be warm for one night.  Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life."
From "Jingo" by Sir Terry Pratchett. Great quote!
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on May 05, 2015, 08:44:02 AM
First of all, Epic thread!  (though it makes my head hurt to read this...)


I can't tell you how to live your life... but it does sound like you are lecturing. You can't save them all, man.  I will offer people advice and insight on how to avoid making poor decisions, but you can't force them to listen. It doesn't make them bad people, just short sighted. They're still worth having in your life.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: BlueMR2 on May 05, 2015, 10:01:52 AM
Basically.  As far as I understand it she paid for $800 worth of room credit at this resort and it only cost her $400  so  half price.   It was one of those groupon or equivalent deals.

We fell victims to groupons & purchased coupons a few times in the last few years.  Not once has it ever worked out.  Groupons/purchased coupons are now banned at our house. 
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: gimp on May 05, 2015, 04:43:38 PM
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: gimp on May 05, 2015, 04:43:50 PM
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: minority_finance_mo on May 05, 2015, 08:26:25 PM
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.

I once spent a thousand dollars on various Groupons in a past, less mustachian life. I don't go anywhere near that site now, unless someone gifts me Groupon credit.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: MgoSam on May 06, 2015, 01:16:05 AM
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.

I once spent a thousand dollars on various Groupons in a past, less mustachian life. I don't go anywhere near that site now, unless someone gifts me Groupon credit.

I get their emails and I"ll glance at them as occasionally I'll see something for a restaurant that I might already go to, but gotta be wary. The most use I've gotten has been ordering an occasional massage.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Kris on May 06, 2015, 05:48:42 AM
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.

I once spent a thousand dollars on various Groupons in a past, less mustachian life. I don't go anywhere near that site now, unless someone gifts me Groupon credit.

I get their emails and I"ll glance at them as occasionally I'll see something for a restaurant that I might already go to, but gotta be wary. The most use I've gotten has been ordering an occasional massage.

Yeah, I have friends that swear by groupon.  It seems like they go on the site to get deals on stuff they weren't particularly motivated to do, jusy to have something to do.  I went on and looked around, and... Meh.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Ashyukun on May 06, 2015, 08:06:59 AM
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.

I once spent a thousand dollars on various Groupons in a past, less mustachian life. I don't go anywhere near that site now, unless someone gifts me Groupon credit.

I get their emails and I"ll glance at them as occasionally I'll see something for a restaurant that I might already go to, but gotta be wary. The most use I've gotten has been ordering an occasional massage.

Yeah, I have friends that swear by groupon.  It seems like they go on the site to get deals on stuff they weren't particularly motivated to do, jusy to have something to do.  I went on and looked around, and... Meh.

Yup, it can be dangerous- but also (along with some of the other things like Amazon Local and our city's own local deals service) can be a nice way to save money on things you'd be spending money on anyway. It's like any store in reality- if you have no willpower and want to buy everything you see but don't need, you shouldn't go in the store. If you are perfectly capable of exercising self control, there's nothing wrong with walking through the store to get something you actually need that's on sale and ignoring everything else.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Candace on May 06, 2015, 08:24:54 AM
I have a vague knowledge that there are certain types of debt that are (unfairly) harder to get out of than others, like student loans.

That would be "Vague and Incorrect" for $200.

The question is:  What type of loan funded by hard working US Taxpayers was so routinely not paid back by so many people that the laws were changed to prevent them from discharging the loans in bankruptcy, among other penalties?

And the answer would be "student loans" in case you haven't had your morning cup of coffee yet...

I would say the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction on the student loans. They should be dischargable in bankruptcy, and modifiable under reasonable circumstances like death, disability and such. It's just that bankruptcy should be harder for people who have simply been irresponsible. A judge can tell the difference.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on May 06, 2015, 08:57:01 AM
I have a vague knowledge that there are certain types of debt that are (unfairly) harder to get out of than others, like student loans.

That would be "Vague and Incorrect" for $200.

The question is:  What type of loan funded by hard working US Taxpayers was so routinely not paid back by so many people that the laws were changed to prevent them from discharging the loans in bankruptcy, among other penalties?

And the answer would be "student loans" in case you haven't had your morning cup of coffee yet...

I would say the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction on the student loans. They should be dischargable in bankruptcy, and modifiable under reasonable circumstances like death, disability and such. It's just that bankruptcy should be harder for people who have simply been irresponsible. A judge can tell the difference.

If dis chargeable under CH11, then they should have the right to decline to give them to you. You want to study camel mating patterns? Great. That's useless. You'll never make money, we decline to loan you $60,000 to do that. Want $50,000 for an engineering degree? Awesome! that's in demand. here's your money.

Essientally this would create a whole new class of underwriters who determine future job prospects for you based on past grades, test scores, and major path. I'm all for it, but my guess is the majority of whiny soft science grads who constantly bitch and complain about how much they owe while making my coffee would be offended by that proposition. They want a 4 year free ride with no strings attached. They can get f'd.

I understand this comes off harsh, but I can name more than a handful of people who complain about how unfair the student loan system is now that they can't find jobs for their [art therapy, zoology, early childhood education, spanish, psych, sociology] degree. They made the choices without thinking about the future. Not the schools fault. Not the banks fault.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: CommonCents on May 06, 2015, 08:58:57 AM
I have a vague knowledge that there are certain types of debt that are (unfairly) harder to get out of than others, like student loans.

That would be "Vague and Incorrect" for $200.

The question is:  What type of loan funded by hard working US Taxpayers was so routinely not paid back by so many people that the laws were changed to prevent them from discharging the loans in bankruptcy, among other penalties?

And the answer would be "student loans" in case you haven't had your morning cup of coffee yet...

I would say the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction on the student loans. They should be dischargable in bankruptcy, and modifiable under reasonable circumstances like death, disability and such. It's just that bankruptcy should be harder for people who have simply been irresponsible. A judge can tell the difference.

But why should they be dischargeable?  The individual took on a legal (and moral imho) obligation to pay back the money, even when it might be tough.  Back in ye old days, a man felt his word was his bond and would not want to tarnish it.  I don't understand today's society where people think it's ok to just walk away from their debt and make other people cover for it (in terms of higher interest rates/taxpayers).  I'm all for very tight rules on personal bankruptcy and yes, even having obligations that can't be discharged.  Maybe people will eventually learn to think more before signing for large student loans, knowing that they have to repay them and can't get others to cover for them.

And I say this well understand that it can be "difficult" sometimes to pay back student loans.  I had about $180k in grad school loans and a further $50k in undergrad loans.  I've paid back $140k, and will finish it off the last $90k in about 15 years.  (I'd pay back immediately, but rates are 0 to 2.75% so it doesn't really make sense to pay back early.)
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: grantmeaname on May 06, 2015, 09:04:20 AM
I have a vague knowledge that there are certain types of debt that are (unfairly) harder to get out of than others, like student loans.

That would be "Vague and Incorrect" for $200.

The question is:  What type of loan funded by hard working US Taxpayers was so routinely not paid back by so many people that the laws were changed to prevent them from discharging the loans in bankruptcy, among other penalties?

And the answer would be "student loans" in case you haven't had your morning cup of coffee yet...

I would say the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction on the student loans. They should be dischargable in bankruptcy, and modifiable under reasonable circumstances like death, disability and such. It's just that bankruptcy should be harder for people who have simply been irresponsible. A judge can tell the difference.
So you came into this thread without knowing anything about student loans or bankruptcy. Since that time you clearly haven't taken the time to learn anything about student loans or bankruptcy, but now you're qualified to declare that we should totally restructure the market for a product that you still don't understand?

If they're dischargeable from bankruptcy what's to stop all 13,000 of my fellow graduates from discharging all of their loans on Monday after they graduate on Sunday? They have no assets and no ability to pay the loans until they start their jobs. Student loans are secured by your future earning potential rather than an asset, and if they were dischargeable it would be impossible to offer them - lenders would either need usurious interest rates to compensate for the stratospheric credit risk, or they'd offer them only to people with other assets to which they could be secured. The end effect of that would be to squeeze all of the people we should be giving student loans to - those using college to get a leg up on life - right out of the market.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Hunny156 on May 06, 2015, 09:08:17 AM
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.

I once spent a thousand dollars on various Groupons in a past, less mustachian life. I don't go anywhere near that site now, unless someone gifts me Groupon credit.

I get their emails and I"ll glance at them as occasionally I'll see something for a restaurant that I might already go to, but gotta be wary. The most use I've gotten has been ordering an occasional massage.

Yeah, I have friends that swear by groupon.  It seems like they go on the site to get deals on stuff they weren't particularly motivated to do, jusy to have something to do.  I went on and looked around, and... Meh.

Yup, it can be dangerous- but also (along with some of the other things like Amazon Local and our city's own local deals service) can be a nice way to save money on things you'd be spending money on anyway. It's like any store in reality- if you have no willpower and want to buy everything you see but don't need, you shouldn't go in the store. If you are perfectly capable of exercising self control, there's nothing wrong with walking through the store to get something you actually need that's on sale and ignoring everything else.

A few years ago, I was all about Groupon/LivingSocial/TravelZoo deals.  Most were for mid-range eating out places, which we would have done anyway, and it was a good way to try new places.  Many were places we already frequented, and I would buy several of those deals, since I knew we'd be there anyhow.

I tried a few of the local deals for weekend getaway trips, as we were new to the area and it was a good way to explore.  Those I won't do again, lets just say that the hotel rooms were just a bit odd, not someplace we would normally stay at.

I've never bought any of the "discount" merchandise, it's usually of poor quality and can be found on Ebay for cheaper anyhow, if I really were inclined to purchase said item.

The model was rarely profitable for the business owner, and the popularity of these schemes has been waning.  I'm actually surprised that they haven't gone out of business already!  Every so often I'll check out their offerings, but there is never anything worthwhile.  The only exception would be travelzoo, their local deals are usually pretty good, especially for those special nights out.  But these days, those deals are few and far between, which is fine by me - we've been cutting back on the eating out, I'm getting to the point where spending money makes me sad.  Buying Vanguard funds is my favorite purchase these days...
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Candace on May 06, 2015, 09:15:40 AM
My post said that bankruptcy should be difficult. It should only be obtainable if the person cannot pay off their debts, and if they committed to the debt under reasonable circumstances. Apparently that doesn't happen today. People can get non-mortgage loans and credit cards if they have a pulse. If they cannot pay their debts are deemed to be irresponsible, they should go to jail. The way people get bankruptcy these days like it's just "normal", and then go on racking up debt, should be prevented by the correct laws being in place. Obviously we don't have that now, as is evidenced by the frustration expressed by other posters at my common-sense opinions.

Lack of detailed knowledge should not prevent common sense from being expressed on subjects that are not rocket science. This is not relativity, organic chemistry or even physics. This is getting people to honor their commitments and not allowing people to take on commitments that they are unlikely to meet. Just because I don't know all the ins and outs does not mean I shouldn't be able to weigh in.

This is an opinion forum. I am saying that people should be responsible, and the laws and regulations should encourage that. Penalties for capricious irresponsibility should be steep, including jail time and other things that would actually make people think twice about taking on debt without a good chance of paying it back.

Lenders should have the right to deny loans that have a high probability of default. Loans for a degree that puts you in a low-demand field seem to meet that criteria. Common sense. Nowhere did I say someone should be able to discharge their loans after graduating. People seem to have a bad reaction
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: SpicyMcHaggus on May 06, 2015, 09:20:10 AM
even with my high-demand computer science degree, it would have been nothing for me to go to a private college, rack up 80k in debt, and then declare bankruptcy 6 mo after graduating. What's to stop me?

You can't throw people in debtors jail. That was an old Engilsh thing, and criminalizing debt lessens the severity of other things like stealing.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Candace on May 06, 2015, 10:01:31 AM
Exactly my point, is that there should be something to stop you. I don't know what the mechanism would be, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't be in place.

Not paying one's debt is similar to stealing, since other people have to make up for the debtor.

Yes, debtor's jail is not the solution. But a weekend or a week in jail might do something to wake people up or at least make them think twice.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Tallgirl1204 on May 06, 2015, 10:15:40 AM




But why should they be dischargeable?  The individual took on a legal (and moral imho) obligation to pay back the money, even when it might be tough.  Back in ye old days, a man felt his word was his bond and would not want to tarnish it.  I don't understand today's society where people think it's ok to just walk away from their debt and make other people cover for it (in terms of higher interest rates/taxpayers).  I'm all for very tight rules on personal bankruptcy and yes, even having obligations that can't be discharged.  Maybe people will eventually learn to think more before signing for large student loans, knowing that they have to repay them and can't get others to cover for them.
[/quote]

I agree with you to a point-- the point being death and (some cases of) disability.  However, student loans that are not dischargeable upon the DEATH of the person who took them out-- or the severe disability, even-- seem onerous and cruel.  The purpose of the loan was to improve the mind of the borrower, and if that mind is no longer functioning the family has no improved situation on which to base re-payment.  I feel like that's a risk the lender should bear. 

I say this having spent a year processing student loan defaults back in the bad old days of easy pickings. (it was my night job).  Seems like 90% of them were from a place called "St. Mary of the Plains Truck Driving School," which sounded like a scam to me-- but I was appalled that so many people walked away from those loans. 

However, when I occasionally processed one for someone who had died (one that stands out was a dental school student who fell to his death on a weekend mountaineering trip), I felt the family's grief emanating from the page, and I processed that default with compassion and gratitude that I could do that small service. 

Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Redstone5 on May 12, 2015, 01:15:03 PM
I've just read this thread. Very sad, especially since my husband and I are just pulling ourselves out of a similar situation.

Now that things are on the right track for us, I'm worried about falling back into the hole again. Our debt is due to be paid off next year and we're already trying to decide what vacation to save up for afterwards. In the past we've worked our butts off and saved towards large trips (several months out of the country) and then lived modestly afterwards to get back on our feet, but the last time we came home again it was much harder to recover and mu husband was out of work for a while which sank us financially. Four years later we're almost back to where we started. 

A lot of people on this thread were asking what would make people live that way, but for myself it's to do with my family's history. None of my grandparents lived to retire. Only one lived to her fifties, and both my grandfathers died in their forties, and my mother got cancer at 55, although she survived and turns 60 this year. One of my grandfathers lived in poverty-style for years so he could retire lavishly, and then died at 45 and his 25-year old new wife got all the money instead.

With my history, it's hard to think about saving for long term goals when I think that I might not be around to enjoy it. It sometimes makes more sense to live for today and enjoy those "retirement" experiences like spending time with our kids and travel, instead of looking forward to the future that might not happen.

However, I don't want to live with the constant worry of debt, or pass on that worry to my kids. Any suggestions on how to change our mindset about long term saving?
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: zephyr911 on May 12, 2015, 01:35:23 PM
I've just read this thread. Very sad, especially since my husband and I are just pulling ourselves out of a similar situation.

Now that things are on the right track for us, I'm worried about falling back into the hole again. Our debt is due to be paid off next year and we're already trying to decide what vacation to save up for afterwards. In the past we've worked our butts off and saved towards large trips (several months out of the country) and then lived modestly afterwards to get back on our feet, but the last time we came home again it was much harder to recover and mu husband was out of work for a while which sank us financially. Four years later we're almost back to where we started. 

A lot of people on this thread were asking what would make people live that way, but for myself it's to do with my family's history. None of my grandparents lived to retire. Only one lived to her fifties, and both my grandfathers died in their forties, and my mother got cancer at 55, although she survived and turns 60 this year. One of my grandfathers lived in poverty-style for years so he could retire lavishly, and then died at 45 and his 25-year old new wife got all the money instead.

With my history, it's hard to think about saving for long term goals when I think that I might not be around to enjoy it. It sometimes makes more sense to live for today and enjoy those "retirement" experiences like spending time with our kids and travel, instead of looking forward to the future that might not happen.

However, I don't want to live with the constant worry of debt, or pass on that worry to my kids. Any suggestions on how to change our mindset about long term saving?
May I suggest, at a minimum, that the first thing you save up for when your debt is zeroed out is *not* a vacation? Or at least, save for other things simultaneously?
I have a similar situation, at least within a certain compartment of my finances. I had a tough winter and spring for free cash (underperforming rentals), although net worth increased due to high retirement contributions and good market performance. Things are dramatically improving, and I'll quickly neutralize the short-term debt that I used to avoid cutting investment rates.
I could have a lot of fun with the money I expect to see this summer. But the logical side of me says that I can find great enjoyment in small, reasonable expenses instead of blowing it all - the best of both worlds. So I will probably allocate the cash 70-30 in favor of investments, maybe higher. And I'll still have lots of fun.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Redstone5 on May 12, 2015, 01:54:53 PM
Thanks, Zephyr. That's good advice.

I think if I knew we had a modest vacation to look forward to it would help me to be more comfortable with our lifestyle and then we could be building savings as well. We don't mind living very modestly but it's hard when we have three kids and I don't want them to miss out on some of things I'd like them to have (nothing fancy. we don't have cell phones or video games or cable, but I'd like them to keep up with swimming lessons and be able to go on school field trips like the other kids). But most of all I want them to learn to be good with their money when they grow up. It's taken my husband and I a long time to change the bad money attitudes we inherited from our parents.

We have a consumer proposal debt of $27000 at no interest, and we make payments of $525/month. (this is a Canadian option instead of declaring bankruptcy. Our creditors agreed to wave interest and accept lower payments as they'll get more than they would if we filed bankruptcy) As it's no interest we haven't made it a priority to pay off, but with hard work we could retire the debt in 13 months. But since it's at no interest maybe it makes more sense to put the money on our mortgage instead or put it all into savings?
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: zephyr911 on May 12, 2015, 02:15:56 PM
Thanks, Zephyr. That's good advice.

I think if I knew we had a modest vacation to look forward to it would help me to be more comfortable with our lifestyle and then we could be building savings as well. We don't mind living very modestly but it's hard when we have three kids and I don't want them to miss out on some of things I'd like them to have (nothing fancy. we don't have cell phones or video games or cable, but I'd like them to keep up with swimming lessons and be able to go on school field trips like the other kids). But most of all I want them to learn to be good with their money when they grow up. It's taken my husband and I a long time to change the bad money attitudes we inherited from our parents.
I wish I had a good excuse. Nobody taught me to suck with money, I just went out and figured it out on my own ;)

Quote
We have a consumer proposal debt of $27000 at no interest, and we make payments of $525/month. (this is a Canadian option instead of declaring bankruptcy. Our creditors agreed to wave interest and accept lower payments as they'll get more than they would if we filed bankruptcy) As it's no interest we haven't made it a priority to pay off, but with hard work we could retire the debt in 13 months. But since it's at no interest maybe it makes more sense to put the money on our mortgage instead or put it all into savings?
Wow, sweet deal. How long can you defer payments without interest or fees? Mathematically, it would make sense to pay as little and as late as possible on that, since paying it off doesn't eliminate a required monthly payment, and virtually any other use of the money would come with an actual ROI (investment return, or interest saved). Conversely, that 27K is actually losing value due to inflation so you're making money by waiting.

If I were in your shoes, I'd want to set up *some* kind of recurring payment just to feel like I'm making progress, but I don't see the urgency. You could be buying stocks, improving your home to save energy, or like you say, paying down other debt.

Do you have any debt other than the CPD and mortgage?
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Redstone5 on May 12, 2015, 03:12:17 PM
Sorry, I should have explained. Under the terms of the consumer proposal we must pay at least $525 per month until the full amount is paid off or the total amount of our debt that was forgiven ($70,000) becomes due again and we lose the interest free grace as well. We are allowed two missed payments in a row but if we miss a third the deal would be cancelled. We can afford to pay more than $525 each month so that the debt would be removed faster, but, as you say, it makes sense to wait since there's no interest and the time is lowering the value of the payment each month.

The only issue is that carrying an un-discharged consumer proposal debt is similar to un-discharged bankruptcy in terms of our credit rating. For example, I wouldn't qualify for a student loan or probably any other loan until the debt is paid off. However, it's a great option for people in our situation who just had too much debt at a massive interest rate for so long it was impossible to get out from under. I was carrying a huge balance on a 20% credit card for ages. What an idiot :(

For years I was trying to keep up with the payments, not realizing that I could have lowered the interest, so I've paid back all of the credit card purchases and the interest, but I was still paying off the interest on the interest, if you know what I mean. Filing consumer proposal with the help of a govt bankruptcy trustee was a life saver for us. I wish more Canadians knew of this option.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Redstone5 on May 12, 2015, 03:15:07 PM
I should add, we have no other debt other than our mortgage ($368,000). The current market value of our home is about $380,000. Westcoast housing is very expensive. It's a little house and we rent out the basement suite for extra income.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Kris on May 12, 2015, 03:28:21 PM
I've just read this thread. Very sad, especially since my husband and I are just pulling ourselves out of a similar situation.

Now that things are on the right track for us, I'm worried about falling back into the hole again. Our debt is due to be paid off next year and we're already trying to decide what vacation to save up for afterwards. In the past we've worked our butts off and saved towards large trips (several months out of the country) and then lived modestly afterwards to get back on our feet, but the last time we came home again it was much harder to recover and mu husband was out of work for a while which sank us financially. Four years later we're almost back to where we started. 

A lot of people on this thread were asking what would make people live that way, but for myself it's to do with my family's history. None of my grandparents lived to retire. Only one lived to her fifties, and both my grandfathers died in their forties, and my mother got cancer at 55, although she survived and turns 60 this year. One of my grandfathers lived in poverty-style for years so he could retire lavishly, and then died at 45 and his 25-year old new wife got all the money instead.

With my history, it's hard to think about saving for long term goals when I think that I might not be around to enjoy it. It sometimes makes more sense to live for today and enjoy those "retirement" experiences like spending time with our kids and travel, instead of looking forward to the future that might not happen.

However, I don't want to live with the constant worry of debt, or pass on that worry to my kids. Any suggestions on how to change our mindset about long term saving?
May I suggest, at a minimum, that the first thing you save up for when your debt is zeroed out is *not* a vacation? Or at least, save for other things simultaneously?
I have a similar situation, at least within a certain compartment of my finances. I had a tough winter and spring for free cash (underperforming rentals), although net worth increased due to high retirement contributions and good market performance. Things are dramatically improving, and I'll quickly neutralize the short-term debt that I used to avoid cutting investment rates.
I could have a lot of fun with the money I expect to see this summer. But the logical side of me says that I can find great enjoyment in small, reasonable expenses instead of blowing it all - the best of both worlds. So I will probably allocate the cash 70-30 in favor of investments, maybe higher. And I'll still have lots of fun.

This is a good suggestion.  I would add to it: We have several savings accounts with our bank, which each have a designated function:  Charity, vacations, a fund to save up for an operation to fix my crappy eyes, etc. And of course, we have automatic withdrawals from our paychecks that go toward retirement funds, etc.  Every month, an agreed-upon amount goes into each of the savings "pots" so that we are putting money toward larger things that we want.  This should give you something to look forward to (saving steadily for a vacation) but also reinforce your new, better spending habits (not going on said vacation UNTIL you've saved the money for it).  Also, one of our savings accounts is kind of a floating account, so if for some reason we had something specific we wanted, we could use that "pot" to start putting money toward that goal.

As a clarification, we actually have plenty of money, and could simply just take some out of savings if we wanted something that cost more than a few hundred.  For example, I have more than enough money for my eye operation.  But the point is, I don't have enough money IN THAT POT yet.  So, I don't get it until I have the money.  (And it's worth pointing out that part of the reason I have plenty of money is that we put these rules in place in the first place! ;)
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Redstone5 on May 12, 2015, 03:39:13 PM
Thanks so much, Kris. I'm going to talk to the family today at dinner about opening up some savings accounts for our different goals. I'd like to have the money set aside where I can't see it as seeing a high balance in the checking account subconsciously makes we want to loosen up on our spending.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on August 30, 2015, 09:20:19 AM
An update - I'll have to make it short because apparently the best thing I can do is take up religion and then pray and everything will just fucking work out perfectly.   Anyone know do I just walk in or should I knock at the church?

So They went to the debt consolidation/forgiveness place.   That place spoke with everyone they owed money to and an agreement was reached.    They have to pay their property taxes (no shit you have to pay your bills?) That works out to $500/month  I'm not sure for how long.  My first thought was shit things were already impossibly tight and that's a big payment but I need not worry.  83% of everything else they owed including their mortgage is forgiven. 83 fucking percent.   They now make a monthly payment of $150ish to cover everything else they owe.   Less than I pay per week on my mortgage.  Their credit is shot for 3 or so years.   So at first I was upset by this but now SIGN ME THE FUCK UP.   I don't need credit, but if I get only a tiny 75% of my mortgage forgiven I can pay the remaining 25% in under 2 years without really even feeling slightly deprived.  Hell I should take a few vacations and do something nice for myself before I do it.

Total fucking bullshit.   
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: crispy on August 30, 2015, 10:27:56 AM
An update - I'll have to make it short because apparently the best thing I can do is take up religion and then pray and everything will just fucking work out perfectly.   Anyone know do I just walk in or should I knock at the church?

So They went to the debt consolidation/forgiveness place.   That place spoke with everyone they owed money to and an agreement was reached.    They have to pay their property taxes (no shit you have to pay your bills?) That works out to $500/month  I'm not sure for how long.  My first thought was shit things were already impossibly tight and that's a big payment but I need not worry.  83% of everything else they owed including their mortgage is forgiven. 83 fucking percent.   They now make a monthly payment of $150ish to cover everything else they owe.   Less than I pay per week on my mortgage.  Their credit is shot for 3 or so years.   So at first I was upset by this but now SIGN ME THE FUCK UP.   I don't need credit, but if I get only a tiny 75% of my mortgage forgiven I can pay the remaining 25% in under 2 years without really even feeling slightly deprived.  Hell I should take a few vacations and do something nice for myself before I do it.

Total fucking bullshit.

Do you have extremely lenient debt forgiveness laws in Canada?  In the US, a secured asset like a house or a car have to be re-affirmed in a bankruptcy meaning they agree to pay that in full, and the unsecured debt like credit cards can either be forgiven or a certain percentage can be paid per the bankruptcy agreement.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: strider3700 on August 30, 2015, 10:38:35 AM
No idea.  I know of someone that walked away from their house and after giving it back to the bank they sold it and he had to make payments to pay off the difference between what he owed and what they sold it for.   I do know the friends in this story were overjoyed that the bank agreed to the conditions. Why the bank would ever agree to that I have no idea as they were perfectly willing to lose my business rather than eat $13 a month in fees...
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Rezdent on August 30, 2015, 11:14:43 AM
An update - I'll have to make it short because apparently the best thing I can do is take up religion and then pray and everything will just fucking work out perfectly.   Anyone know do I just walk in or should I knock at the church?

So They went to the debt consolidation/forgiveness place.   That place spoke with everyone they owed money to and an agreement was reached.    They have to pay their property taxes (no shit you have to pay your bills?) That works out to $500/month  I'm not sure for how long.  My first thought was shit things were already impossibly tight and that's a big payment but I need not worry.  83% of everything else they owed including their mortgage is forgiven. 83 fucking percent.   They now make a monthly payment of $150ish to cover everything else they owe.   Less than I pay per week on my mortgage.  Their credit is shot for 3 or so years.   So at first I was upset by this but now SIGN ME THE FUCK UP.   I don't need credit, but if I get only a tiny 75% of my mortgage forgiven I can pay the remaining 25% in under 2 years without really even feeling slightly deprived.  Hell I should take a few vacations and do something nice for myself before I do it.

Total fucking bullshit.
Apparently, you have to be total moron regarding finances for years and years - I'm happy to say I don't believe you qualify, strider3700.

And anyway, they aren't out of the fire.  The habits that got them here practically ensure they're gonna blow this chance too.

I've been watching an eerily similar trainwreck over the last year...laws are a bit different, but it kept going downhill after the consolidation.


After the consolidation, they still didn't get it together.  He was hiding his truck in his garage to prevent the repo man from latching onto it.  That worked until the bank started the foreclosure. 
Then it was bankruptcy, complete with some type of warden who gets their checks and pays their creditors, then cuts them an allowance (not sure of the deal).

Somehow, they managed an arrangement to sell the house, and were entitled to some equity but in the meantime they have to move out and can't afford even a sleazy motel, now couch-surfing/living in her car.

Finding a place to rent seems to be a sticky issue atm.  It appears that landlords want an application for each person over the age of 18, including the two unemployed adult children.  And verification of income.  And pet deposit for two huge dogs.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Sofa King on August 30, 2015, 12:43:01 PM

Finding a place to rent seems to be a sticky issue atm.  It appears that landlords want an application for each person over the age of 18, including the two unemployed adult children.  And verification of income.  And pet deposit for two huge dogs.

I know some fucking idiots like this and look at their stupidity as entertainment.  I would only feel sorry for the dogs.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Candace on August 31, 2015, 09:56:09 AM
An update - I'll have to make it short because apparently the best thing I can do is take up religion and then pray and everything will just fucking work out perfectly.   Anyone know do I just walk in or should I knock at the church?

So They went to the debt consolidation/forgiveness place.   That place spoke with everyone they owed money to and an agreement was reached.    They have to pay their property taxes (no shit you have to pay your bills?) That works out to $500/month  I'm not sure for how long.  My first thought was shit things were already impossibly tight and that's a big payment but I need not worry.  83% of everything else they owed including their mortgage is forgiven. 83 fucking percent.   They now make a monthly payment of $150ish to cover everything else they owe.   Less than I pay per week on my mortgage.  Their credit is shot for 3 or so years.   So at first I was upset by this but now SIGN ME THE FUCK UP.   I don't need credit, but if I get only a tiny 75% of my mortgage forgiven I can pay the remaining 25% in under 2 years without really even feeling slightly deprived.  Hell I should take a few vacations and do something nice for myself before I do it.

Total fucking bullshit.

I read through most of this thread and I admit I was waiting for these folks to really have to make some compromises and pay some penalties (besides stress) for their incompetence and irresponsibility. It looks like instead, they are just being given most of the value of what they owe, by having most of their debt wiped out. It would be very easy to get an ulcer or at least a sour stomach by thinking about it. After all, most of us here pay our debts and don't buy things we can't afford. So they basically get the ski vacation, the conference, the other trip and all the restaurant meals for free -- only the rest of us end up paying for them.

Is it time to bring back debtor's prison? Maybe not, but I just think people who do this sort of thing need to have the spigot cut off in some way that's effective. The poster above whose Texas friend now gets an allowance out of his paycheck sounds like he's getting a more just result.

I'm very sorry for the indirect stress this is causing you. I would say, if you're not going to lobby for different laws, then the best thing you can do to help yourself is to cut off these friends. Un-friend them on Facebook. Don't invite them over. Maybe your wife stays friends with them, but she can just not bring up the subject with you.

Or, you can continue to provide this forum with entertainment, and deal with the acidic tummy. Good luck.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: debbie does duncan on September 01, 2015, 10:27:55 AM
I 'll take a guess and say we have not heard the entire story .
Either your "friends " forgot some details.....did not hear all  the details correctly.
 I will wait for the next installment.
Thank you  strider3700 for your efforts in telling us this tale of dumb-assity.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: GoldenNeko on September 01, 2015, 03:25:57 PM
An update - I'll have to make it short because apparently the best thing I can do is take up religion and then pray and everything will just fucking work out perfectly.   Anyone know do I just walk in or should I knock at the church?

So They went to the debt consolidation/forgiveness place.   That place spoke with everyone they owed money to and an agreement was reached.    They have to pay their property taxes (no shit you have to pay your bills?) That works out to $500/month  I'm not sure for how long.  My first thought was shit things were already impossibly tight and that's a big payment but I need not worry.  83% of everything else they owed including their mortgage is forgiven. 83 fucking percent.   They now make a monthly payment of $150ish to cover everything else they owe.   Less than I pay per week on my mortgage.  Their credit is shot for 3 or so years.   So at first I was upset by this but now SIGN ME THE FUCK UP.   I don't need credit, but if I get only a tiny 75% of my mortgage forgiven I can pay the remaining 25% in under 2 years without really even feeling slightly deprived.  Hell I should take a few vacations and do something nice for myself before I do it.

Total fucking bullshit.

That's quite unfair to anyone being honest and paying his/her debts (and who actually pay their taxes, used that way to help irresponsible people).
Yet, I feel pretty sure you'll end richer than them in the end.
Don't envy them or feel angry. Pity is all they're worth.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: purplearcanist on September 01, 2015, 04:11:31 PM
You know what would be awesome?  If this family realized right now that they have the chance to COMPLETELY TURN THIS AROUND.
They seek you out for help.  They listen and actually WORK to pay off their debt emergency and not be spenders.  Then they get up to a 50% savings rate.

I will say that I have had my fair share of bailouts, story for another time.
Title: Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
Post by: Breaker on September 02, 2015, 05:50:36 PM
Pity their poor kids.  The kind of money (non) management they are learning will probably cause them to be just as irresponsible as their parents.  Not a nice way to live.

Breaker