Author Topic: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.  (Read 71535 times)

11ducks

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #100 on: April 07, 2015, 04:40:20 PM »
Commenting to follow

Zamboni

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #101 on: April 07, 2015, 07:31:28 PM »
Friends are easy to ignore.  Family, not so much.  My own family has a few financial train wrecks.  So far only one couple (a distant relation, which was awkward) has directly begged for money.  Feeling more amazement than guilt, I declined.  Somehow they didn't lose their house despite my cold heartedness, so either someone else helped them or they found some other way to weasel out of facing their years of horrible decisions.

Whenever I feel insecure about how much I'm saving or spending - I can just check this thread out!  Although I do have to wonder at how much y'all's friends seem to tell each other about finances, I almost never hear anything from my friends - except the financially responsible ones sharing their latest wins!

BMEPhD, I would guess that your friends and colleagues are smarter than the average bears.

thurston howell iv

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #102 on: April 14, 2015, 07:35:05 AM »
First of all, Epic thread!  (though it makes my head hurt to read this...)

Secondly, I can relate... Being or trying to be a good mustachian can be a lonely endeavor.

Most all of my friends (now- mostly former friends) where all ridiculous spenders. One of my closest friends once told me (when I asked him if he was saving anything) that his goal was to cash his check on Friday and be broke by Monday. He wanted to enjoy his money and not worry about the future. We went to some steak place and I ordered a reasonable meal. He made a show of ordering the most expensive item on the menu and only ate half of it. When they asked him if he wanted a doggy bag, he scoffed and said that was for poor people and that they could just throw it away...

My family, to some degree, is nearly the same. Spending for the sake of spending. My uncle recently turned 80 and he's still working! Why? Because he's too deep in debt to stop. The same uncle and aunt have 3 new cars (one of them was for their daughter).

It seems like all my efforts to gently nudge these people in a different direction is met with disdain. My sister rarely talks to me- she thinks I lecture too much. I do (not all lecturey, at least I don;t think it's lecturey) but I do it from a place of love. I try to show her how to fix the mess she's made but she lets it go in one ear and out the other.  Her method, while not religious, works similarly. I call it the "stand here with my hand out until some one gives me something" method. It actually works! 

My sister purchased a car when she was 18. It was a junker. I tried to help her with it. She didn't care. Even "tricked" me into fixing her brakes (an emergency that I had to stop what I was doing to fix)- the pads were gone and the caliper was digging into the rotor (it was supposed to be so she could go to a job interview)- The next day she was off to some amusement park two hours away!  When that car died my parents gave her a car along with who knows how much money for an apartment. Her and her husband proceeded to trash the car. She moved. His parents gave them a car. Also trashed. Eventually, she purchased a car on her own - she was proud that she had managed to do it on her own. When I asked if she got a good deal (knowing that I'm a car guy and would have scoured the planet to find her the best deal)- she told me "probably not but, I did it on my own"- I had to bite my tongue. (turned out that she signed a 96 month contract!!! WTF?!?!?)   Eventually, she gave the car back to the dealer and my parents gave her another car. When that one broke, they gave her another car...   See a pattern??

And I get grief because I'm lecturing...

Luckily, the whole family knows I'm a hard-ass when it comes to money and while they all think we're rich (we're both professionals), no one dares call me to ask for money. I guess there's a good side to it after all.




Zamboni

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #103 on: April 14, 2015, 07:59:59 PM »
First of all, Epic thread!  (though it makes my head hurt to read this...)

 (turned out that she signed a 96 month contract!!! WTF?!?!?)   


Wow, I had no idea one could get such a long note on a car!

jeromedawg

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #104 on: April 14, 2015, 10:01:07 PM »
lol this is hilarious. I can't believe this thread has been indirectly chronicling the financial woes of a family over the course of the past 2-3 years. Crazy how fast things can go downhill. May this constantly serve as a great reminder and warning about how *not* to live life. Yeeesh.

 On a side note: I'm incredibly lucky to have married my wife, who it turns out is quite low-maintenance and low-key when it comes to wants and needs. She may not be the best at getting crazy good deals or having the most keen frugal sense, but when it comes to wants and needs she is way more discerning than I ever could be. I think being extremely discerning of wants/needs is on the same level as being keenly frugal. Because if you can convince yourself that you don't want OR need something, that's X dollars less that you spent regardless.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 10:08:12 PM by jplee3 »

thurston howell iv

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #105 on: April 15, 2015, 06:53:25 AM »


Wow, I had no idea one could get such a long note on a car!
[/quote]

Me neither. And what made it worse was that it was for something like a 10 year old hyundai with 100k miles!
Some of these places really take advantage of people.

Aila Jade

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #106 on: April 18, 2015, 06:01:02 PM »
Great thread. I have family members like your neighbors. Just a note to party gypsy, don't  even think about ruining your financial  future  to enable your family's bad decisions ! Move far away if you need to!

Candace

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #107 on: April 24, 2015, 01:34:52 PM »
I just read this thread for the first time.

My jaw is dirty from dragging on the floor.

I don't understand how people can incur bad debts over and over and not pay for it, by at least losing their house and having to rent or move in with family. Seriously, how does this work? I am familiar with the pattern of people declaring bankruptcy repeatedly and getting their debts wiped out, though I don't see why our laws would support that either.

A serious question. Does anyone reading this have knowledge of the laws and rules that apply to people to incur debts they can't pay? What has to happen for someone to get their wages garnished? What has to happen for creditors to not issue cards? I have a vague knowledge that there are certain types of debt that are (unfairly) harder to get out of than others, like student loans. But...doesn't something have to happen sometime to these folks?

It just reminds me of the people (at least I've heard of them, whether it's true or not) who bought too much house during the run-up in prices, and then got bailouts when they went upside-down. And of people who can abandon their houses when it "makes sense" to do so. How can those people ever get a W-2 job again without their creditors getting their money?

I know I'm rambling and asking a lot of questions. But I'm basically asking whether our "system" is set up AT ALL to force consequences on people who promise to pay and then don't. Does anyone know? Maybe this should be in a new thread.

gimp

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #108 on: April 24, 2015, 08:28:41 PM »
Bankruptcy makes it exceedingly hard to borrow for some time, or borrow at reasonable rates. That's the punishment. Some things can't be cleared through bankruptcy, most can.

("But why do some lenders still lend to them?" Because they calculate the risk vs reward and charge appropriately; they wouldn't do it if it wasn't usually profitable.)

If you were able to declare bankruptcy then continue paying for everything you needed with cash, you would have essentially no punishment. Then again, it's arguably a business decision, not a moral one; you don't care about the bank and the bank doesn't care about you.

With that said, certain jobs you will lose, or may lose, for going bankrupt. Generally speaking, many jobs in the financial area - because you clearly don't know what you're doing and/or are a bad example - and many jobs that need security clearance - someone with money problems is much easier to bribe and/or may take their own fanciful action to try to turn a buck, and is therefore a liability.

SwordGuy

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #109 on: April 28, 2015, 08:21:35 PM »
I have a vague knowledge that there are certain types of debt that are (unfairly) harder to get out of than others, like student loans.

That would be "Vague and Incorrect" for $200.

The question is:  What type of loan funded by hard working US Taxpayers was so routinely not paid back by so many people that the laws were changed to prevent them from discharging the loans in bankruptcy, among other penalties?

And the answer would be "student loans" in case you haven't had your morning cup of coffee yet...

Hey It's Me

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #110 on: April 28, 2015, 09:57:11 PM »
This reminds me of my cousin, always posting on Facebook her (self-imposed) financial ills and then saying God will provide. Wanted to slap her a couple times but restrained myself..

My dear mother's go-to is "God will provide."

Wasn't there a passage in the bible about God helping those that help themselves, or am I just going crazy here?

slugline

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #111 on: April 28, 2015, 10:14:53 PM »
Wasn't there a passage in the bible about God helping those that help themselves, or am I just going crazy here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helps_those_who_help_themselves

I'll allow you a third option. :)

Marus

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #112 on: April 30, 2015, 07:05:30 AM »
Let me tell you the story of Stu and Molly (names changed to protect identities ).  Both come from relatively poor Vermont farming families.  I don't mean this as a knock on them.  Most farmers do it because they love the way of life and they don't want to have to work at a desk job or in a factory.  Good for them.   Stu's dad is frugal and responsible.  Stu's mom is awful, but luckily she's been out of the picture for a while.  Molly's parents took out a reverse mortgage and used the money to buy NASCAR memorabilia.  I think that says it all.

Needless to say, Molly is absolutely dreadful with money.  She's obsessed with getting new animals and will often just show up with a new dog, cat, duck or even horse.  They've got five dogs now and all of them are awful because no one bothered to train them and they never go for walks.

A couple years ago Molly decided she wanted to start up a bakery.  She didn't have a real business plan or anything.  Everyone in her family told her this was an awful idea but she didn't listen.  She had no savings of course, so she used debt to buy all the equipment.  Needless to say the business went belly up within six months.

Recently Molly decided she needed a new car so she went and got a new Nissan with no money down.  She's agreed to pay $350/month for the next five years but they'll be lucky if they even get one payment out of her before they have  to repossess it.

The worst part is a ton of their relatives have tried to help them out over the years.  All walked away feeling completely disrespected and used.  Now they're living with Stu's dad who is one of the most patient people I've ever met and even he's getting fed up.  They hardly ever clean so their presence is like a blight on the place.


SpicyMcHaggus

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #113 on: May 04, 2015, 02:25:39 PM »
TL;DR;

My favorite quote is : "Build a man a fire and he will be warm for one night.  Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life."

I have friends / family in the same boat. I ignore as much as possible, but when pressed will tell them that I spent only 10% of my annual take home on my car. I don't take extravagant cruise ship vacations. I shop the bargain bin. I buy clothes at goodwill. That's how my net worth is 250k and theirs is a pickup truck. Keeping up with the joneses is a dangerous game.

Shamantha

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #114 on: May 05, 2015, 03:35:26 AM »
TL;DR;

My favorite quote is : "Build a man a fire and he will be warm for one night.  Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life."
From "Jingo" by Sir Terry Pratchett. Great quote!

SpicyMcHaggus

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #115 on: May 05, 2015, 08:44:02 AM »
First of all, Epic thread!  (though it makes my head hurt to read this...)


I can't tell you how to live your life... but it does sound like you are lecturing. You can't save them all, man.  I will offer people advice and insight on how to avoid making poor decisions, but you can't force them to listen. It doesn't make them bad people, just short sighted. They're still worth having in your life.

BlueMR2

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #116 on: May 05, 2015, 10:01:52 AM »
Basically.  As far as I understand it she paid for $800 worth of room credit at this resort and it only cost her $400  so  half price.   It was one of those groupon or equivalent deals.

We fell victims to groupons & purchased coupons a few times in the last few years.  Not once has it ever worked out.  Groupons/purchased coupons are now banned at our house. 

gimp

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #117 on: May 05, 2015, 04:43:38 PM »
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.

gimp

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #118 on: May 05, 2015, 04:43:50 PM »
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.

Hey It's Me

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #119 on: May 05, 2015, 08:26:25 PM »
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.

I once spent a thousand dollars on various Groupons in a past, less mustachian life. I don't go anywhere near that site now, unless someone gifts me Groupon credit.

MgoSam

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #120 on: May 06, 2015, 01:16:05 AM »
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.

I once spent a thousand dollars on various Groupons in a past, less mustachian life. I don't go anywhere near that site now, unless someone gifts me Groupon credit.

I get their emails and I"ll glance at them as occasionally I'll see something for a restaurant that I might already go to, but gotta be wary. The most use I've gotten has been ordering an occasional massage.

Kris

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #121 on: May 06, 2015, 05:48:42 AM »
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.

I once spent a thousand dollars on various Groupons in a past, less mustachian life. I don't go anywhere near that site now, unless someone gifts me Groupon credit.

I get their emails and I"ll glance at them as occasionally I'll see something for a restaurant that I might already go to, but gotta be wary. The most use I've gotten has been ordering an occasional massage.

Yeah, I have friends that swear by groupon.  It seems like they go on the site to get deals on stuff they weren't particularly motivated to do, jusy to have something to do.  I went on and looked around, and... Meh.

Ashyukun

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #122 on: May 06, 2015, 08:06:59 AM »
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.

I once spent a thousand dollars on various Groupons in a past, less mustachian life. I don't go anywhere near that site now, unless someone gifts me Groupon credit.

I get their emails and I"ll glance at them as occasionally I'll see something for a restaurant that I might already go to, but gotta be wary. The most use I've gotten has been ordering an occasional massage.

Yeah, I have friends that swear by groupon.  It seems like they go on the site to get deals on stuff they weren't particularly motivated to do, jusy to have something to do.  I went on and looked around, and... Meh.

Yup, it can be dangerous- but also (along with some of the other things like Amazon Local and our city's own local deals service) can be a nice way to save money on things you'd be spending money on anyway. It's like any store in reality- if you have no willpower and want to buy everything you see but don't need, you shouldn't go in the store. If you are perfectly capable of exercising self control, there's nothing wrong with walking through the store to get something you actually need that's on sale and ignoring everything else.

Candace

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #123 on: May 06, 2015, 08:24:54 AM »
I have a vague knowledge that there are certain types of debt that are (unfairly) harder to get out of than others, like student loans.

That would be "Vague and Incorrect" for $200.

The question is:  What type of loan funded by hard working US Taxpayers was so routinely not paid back by so many people that the laws were changed to prevent them from discharging the loans in bankruptcy, among other penalties?

And the answer would be "student loans" in case you haven't had your morning cup of coffee yet...

I would say the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction on the student loans. They should be dischargable in bankruptcy, and modifiable under reasonable circumstances like death, disability and such. It's just that bankruptcy should be harder for people who have simply been irresponsible. A judge can tell the difference.

SpicyMcHaggus

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #124 on: May 06, 2015, 08:57:01 AM »
I have a vague knowledge that there are certain types of debt that are (unfairly) harder to get out of than others, like student loans.

That would be "Vague and Incorrect" for $200.

The question is:  What type of loan funded by hard working US Taxpayers was so routinely not paid back by so many people that the laws were changed to prevent them from discharging the loans in bankruptcy, among other penalties?

And the answer would be "student loans" in case you haven't had your morning cup of coffee yet...

I would say the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction on the student loans. They should be dischargable in bankruptcy, and modifiable under reasonable circumstances like death, disability and such. It's just that bankruptcy should be harder for people who have simply been irresponsible. A judge can tell the difference.

If dis chargeable under CH11, then they should have the right to decline to give them to you. You want to study camel mating patterns? Great. That's useless. You'll never make money, we decline to loan you $60,000 to do that. Want $50,000 for an engineering degree? Awesome! that's in demand. here's your money.

Essientally this would create a whole new class of underwriters who determine future job prospects for you based on past grades, test scores, and major path. I'm all for it, but my guess is the majority of whiny soft science grads who constantly bitch and complain about how much they owe while making my coffee would be offended by that proposition. They want a 4 year free ride with no strings attached. They can get f'd.

I understand this comes off harsh, but I can name more than a handful of people who complain about how unfair the student loan system is now that they can't find jobs for their [art therapy, zoology, early childhood education, spanish, psych, sociology] degree. They made the choices without thinking about the future. Not the schools fault. Not the banks fault.

CommonCents

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #125 on: May 06, 2015, 08:58:57 AM »
I have a vague knowledge that there are certain types of debt that are (unfairly) harder to get out of than others, like student loans.

That would be "Vague and Incorrect" for $200.

The question is:  What type of loan funded by hard working US Taxpayers was so routinely not paid back by so many people that the laws were changed to prevent them from discharging the loans in bankruptcy, among other penalties?

And the answer would be "student loans" in case you haven't had your morning cup of coffee yet...

I would say the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction on the student loans. They should be dischargable in bankruptcy, and modifiable under reasonable circumstances like death, disability and such. It's just that bankruptcy should be harder for people who have simply been irresponsible. A judge can tell the difference.

But why should they be dischargeable?  The individual took on a legal (and moral imho) obligation to pay back the money, even when it might be tough.  Back in ye old days, a man felt his word was his bond and would not want to tarnish it.  I don't understand today's society where people think it's ok to just walk away from their debt and make other people cover for it (in terms of higher interest rates/taxpayers).  I'm all for very tight rules on personal bankruptcy and yes, even having obligations that can't be discharged.  Maybe people will eventually learn to think more before signing for large student loans, knowing that they have to repay them and can't get others to cover for them.

And I say this well understand that it can be "difficult" sometimes to pay back student loans.  I had about $180k in grad school loans and a further $50k in undergrad loans.  I've paid back $140k, and will finish it off the last $90k in about 15 years.  (I'd pay back immediately, but rates are 0 to 2.75% so it doesn't really make sense to pay back early.)

grantmeaname

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #126 on: May 06, 2015, 09:04:20 AM »
I have a vague knowledge that there are certain types of debt that are (unfairly) harder to get out of than others, like student loans.

That would be "Vague and Incorrect" for $200.

The question is:  What type of loan funded by hard working US Taxpayers was so routinely not paid back by so many people that the laws were changed to prevent them from discharging the loans in bankruptcy, among other penalties?

And the answer would be "student loans" in case you haven't had your morning cup of coffee yet...

I would say the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction on the student loans. They should be dischargable in bankruptcy, and modifiable under reasonable circumstances like death, disability and such. It's just that bankruptcy should be harder for people who have simply been irresponsible. A judge can tell the difference.
So you came into this thread without knowing anything about student loans or bankruptcy. Since that time you clearly haven't taken the time to learn anything about student loans or bankruptcy, but now you're qualified to declare that we should totally restructure the market for a product that you still don't understand?

If they're dischargeable from bankruptcy what's to stop all 13,000 of my fellow graduates from discharging all of their loans on Monday after they graduate on Sunday? They have no assets and no ability to pay the loans until they start their jobs. Student loans are secured by your future earning potential rather than an asset, and if they were dischargeable it would be impossible to offer them - lenders would either need usurious interest rates to compensate for the stratospheric credit risk, or they'd offer them only to people with other assets to which they could be secured. The end effect of that would be to squeeze all of the people we should be giving student loans to - those using college to get a leg up on life - right out of the market.

Hunny156

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #127 on: May 06, 2015, 09:08:17 AM »
My rule: groupons are only for when I already plan to do something. I want a car wash, I look for a groupon. I want to go out with friends and try someplace random - groupon. Never the other way around.

I once spent a thousand dollars on various Groupons in a past, less mustachian life. I don't go anywhere near that site now, unless someone gifts me Groupon credit.

I get their emails and I"ll glance at them as occasionally I'll see something for a restaurant that I might already go to, but gotta be wary. The most use I've gotten has been ordering an occasional massage.

Yeah, I have friends that swear by groupon.  It seems like they go on the site to get deals on stuff they weren't particularly motivated to do, jusy to have something to do.  I went on and looked around, and... Meh.

Yup, it can be dangerous- but also (along with some of the other things like Amazon Local and our city's own local deals service) can be a nice way to save money on things you'd be spending money on anyway. It's like any store in reality- if you have no willpower and want to buy everything you see but don't need, you shouldn't go in the store. If you are perfectly capable of exercising self control, there's nothing wrong with walking through the store to get something you actually need that's on sale and ignoring everything else.

A few years ago, I was all about Groupon/LivingSocial/TravelZoo deals.  Most were for mid-range eating out places, which we would have done anyway, and it was a good way to try new places.  Many were places we already frequented, and I would buy several of those deals, since I knew we'd be there anyhow.

I tried a few of the local deals for weekend getaway trips, as we were new to the area and it was a good way to explore.  Those I won't do again, lets just say that the hotel rooms were just a bit odd, not someplace we would normally stay at.

I've never bought any of the "discount" merchandise, it's usually of poor quality and can be found on Ebay for cheaper anyhow, if I really were inclined to purchase said item.

The model was rarely profitable for the business owner, and the popularity of these schemes has been waning.  I'm actually surprised that they haven't gone out of business already!  Every so often I'll check out their offerings, but there is never anything worthwhile.  The only exception would be travelzoo, their local deals are usually pretty good, especially for those special nights out.  But these days, those deals are few and far between, which is fine by me - we've been cutting back on the eating out, I'm getting to the point where spending money makes me sad.  Buying Vanguard funds is my favorite purchase these days...

Candace

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #128 on: May 06, 2015, 09:15:40 AM »
My post said that bankruptcy should be difficult. It should only be obtainable if the person cannot pay off their debts, and if they committed to the debt under reasonable circumstances. Apparently that doesn't happen today. People can get non-mortgage loans and credit cards if they have a pulse. If they cannot pay their debts are deemed to be irresponsible, they should go to jail. The way people get bankruptcy these days like it's just "normal", and then go on racking up debt, should be prevented by the correct laws being in place. Obviously we don't have that now, as is evidenced by the frustration expressed by other posters at my common-sense opinions.

Lack of detailed knowledge should not prevent common sense from being expressed on subjects that are not rocket science. This is not relativity, organic chemistry or even physics. This is getting people to honor their commitments and not allowing people to take on commitments that they are unlikely to meet. Just because I don't know all the ins and outs does not mean I shouldn't be able to weigh in.

This is an opinion forum. I am saying that people should be responsible, and the laws and regulations should encourage that. Penalties for capricious irresponsibility should be steep, including jail time and other things that would actually make people think twice about taking on debt without a good chance of paying it back.

Lenders should have the right to deny loans that have a high probability of default. Loans for a degree that puts you in a low-demand field seem to meet that criteria. Common sense. Nowhere did I say someone should be able to discharge their loans after graduating. People seem to have a bad reaction
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 09:19:27 AM by Candace »

SpicyMcHaggus

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #129 on: May 06, 2015, 09:20:10 AM »
even with my high-demand computer science degree, it would have been nothing for me to go to a private college, rack up 80k in debt, and then declare bankruptcy 6 mo after graduating. What's to stop me?

You can't throw people in debtors jail. That was an old Engilsh thing, and criminalizing debt lessens the severity of other things like stealing.

Candace

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #130 on: May 06, 2015, 10:01:31 AM »
Exactly my point, is that there should be something to stop you. I don't know what the mechanism would be, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't be in place.

Not paying one's debt is similar to stealing, since other people have to make up for the debtor.

Yes, debtor's jail is not the solution. But a weekend or a week in jail might do something to wake people up or at least make them think twice.

Tallgirl1204

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #131 on: May 06, 2015, 10:15:40 AM »




But why should they be dischargeable?  The individual took on a legal (and moral imho) obligation to pay back the money, even when it might be tough.  Back in ye old days, a man felt his word was his bond and would not want to tarnish it.  I don't understand today's society where people think it's ok to just walk away from their debt and make other people cover for it (in terms of higher interest rates/taxpayers).  I'm all for very tight rules on personal bankruptcy and yes, even having obligations that can't be discharged.  Maybe people will eventually learn to think more before signing for large student loans, knowing that they have to repay them and can't get others to cover for them.
[/quote]

I agree with you to a point-- the point being death and (some cases of) disability.  However, student loans that are not dischargeable upon the DEATH of the person who took them out-- or the severe disability, even-- seem onerous and cruel.  The purpose of the loan was to improve the mind of the borrower, and if that mind is no longer functioning the family has no improved situation on which to base re-payment.  I feel like that's a risk the lender should bear. 

I say this having spent a year processing student loan defaults back in the bad old days of easy pickings. (it was my night job).  Seems like 90% of them were from a place called "St. Mary of the Plains Truck Driving School," which sounded like a scam to me-- but I was appalled that so many people walked away from those loans. 

However, when I occasionally processed one for someone who had died (one that stands out was a dental school student who fell to his death on a weekend mountaineering trip), I felt the family's grief emanating from the page, and I processed that default with compassion and gratitude that I could do that small service. 


Redstone5

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #132 on: May 12, 2015, 01:15:03 PM »
I've just read this thread. Very sad, especially since my husband and I are just pulling ourselves out of a similar situation.

Now that things are on the right track for us, I'm worried about falling back into the hole again. Our debt is due to be paid off next year and we're already trying to decide what vacation to save up for afterwards. In the past we've worked our butts off and saved towards large trips (several months out of the country) and then lived modestly afterwards to get back on our feet, but the last time we came home again it was much harder to recover and mu husband was out of work for a while which sank us financially. Four years later we're almost back to where we started. 

A lot of people on this thread were asking what would make people live that way, but for myself it's to do with my family's history. None of my grandparents lived to retire. Only one lived to her fifties, and both my grandfathers died in their forties, and my mother got cancer at 55, although she survived and turns 60 this year. One of my grandfathers lived in poverty-style for years so he could retire lavishly, and then died at 45 and his 25-year old new wife got all the money instead.

With my history, it's hard to think about saving for long term goals when I think that I might not be around to enjoy it. It sometimes makes more sense to live for today and enjoy those "retirement" experiences like spending time with our kids and travel, instead of looking forward to the future that might not happen.

However, I don't want to live with the constant worry of debt, or pass on that worry to my kids. Any suggestions on how to change our mindset about long term saving?

zephyr911

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #133 on: May 12, 2015, 01:35:23 PM »
I've just read this thread. Very sad, especially since my husband and I are just pulling ourselves out of a similar situation.

Now that things are on the right track for us, I'm worried about falling back into the hole again. Our debt is due to be paid off next year and we're already trying to decide what vacation to save up for afterwards. In the past we've worked our butts off and saved towards large trips (several months out of the country) and then lived modestly afterwards to get back on our feet, but the last time we came home again it was much harder to recover and mu husband was out of work for a while which sank us financially. Four years later we're almost back to where we started. 

A lot of people on this thread were asking what would make people live that way, but for myself it's to do with my family's history. None of my grandparents lived to retire. Only one lived to her fifties, and both my grandfathers died in their forties, and my mother got cancer at 55, although she survived and turns 60 this year. One of my grandfathers lived in poverty-style for years so he could retire lavishly, and then died at 45 and his 25-year old new wife got all the money instead.

With my history, it's hard to think about saving for long term goals when I think that I might not be around to enjoy it. It sometimes makes more sense to live for today and enjoy those "retirement" experiences like spending time with our kids and travel, instead of looking forward to the future that might not happen.

However, I don't want to live with the constant worry of debt, or pass on that worry to my kids. Any suggestions on how to change our mindset about long term saving?
May I suggest, at a minimum, that the first thing you save up for when your debt is zeroed out is *not* a vacation? Or at least, save for other things simultaneously?
I have a similar situation, at least within a certain compartment of my finances. I had a tough winter and spring for free cash (underperforming rentals), although net worth increased due to high retirement contributions and good market performance. Things are dramatically improving, and I'll quickly neutralize the short-term debt that I used to avoid cutting investment rates.
I could have a lot of fun with the money I expect to see this summer. But the logical side of me says that I can find great enjoyment in small, reasonable expenses instead of blowing it all - the best of both worlds. So I will probably allocate the cash 70-30 in favor of investments, maybe higher. And I'll still have lots of fun.

Redstone5

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #134 on: May 12, 2015, 01:54:53 PM »
Thanks, Zephyr. That's good advice.

I think if I knew we had a modest vacation to look forward to it would help me to be more comfortable with our lifestyle and then we could be building savings as well. We don't mind living very modestly but it's hard when we have three kids and I don't want them to miss out on some of things I'd like them to have (nothing fancy. we don't have cell phones or video games or cable, but I'd like them to keep up with swimming lessons and be able to go on school field trips like the other kids). But most of all I want them to learn to be good with their money when they grow up. It's taken my husband and I a long time to change the bad money attitudes we inherited from our parents.

We have a consumer proposal debt of $27000 at no interest, and we make payments of $525/month. (this is a Canadian option instead of declaring bankruptcy. Our creditors agreed to wave interest and accept lower payments as they'll get more than they would if we filed bankruptcy) As it's no interest we haven't made it a priority to pay off, but with hard work we could retire the debt in 13 months. But since it's at no interest maybe it makes more sense to put the money on our mortgage instead or put it all into savings?

zephyr911

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #135 on: May 12, 2015, 02:15:56 PM »
Thanks, Zephyr. That's good advice.

I think if I knew we had a modest vacation to look forward to it would help me to be more comfortable with our lifestyle and then we could be building savings as well. We don't mind living very modestly but it's hard when we have three kids and I don't want them to miss out on some of things I'd like them to have (nothing fancy. we don't have cell phones or video games or cable, but I'd like them to keep up with swimming lessons and be able to go on school field trips like the other kids). But most of all I want them to learn to be good with their money when they grow up. It's taken my husband and I a long time to change the bad money attitudes we inherited from our parents.
I wish I had a good excuse. Nobody taught me to suck with money, I just went out and figured it out on my own ;)

Quote
We have a consumer proposal debt of $27000 at no interest, and we make payments of $525/month. (this is a Canadian option instead of declaring bankruptcy. Our creditors agreed to wave interest and accept lower payments as they'll get more than they would if we filed bankruptcy) As it's no interest we haven't made it a priority to pay off, but with hard work we could retire the debt in 13 months. But since it's at no interest maybe it makes more sense to put the money on our mortgage instead or put it all into savings?
Wow, sweet deal. How long can you defer payments without interest or fees? Mathematically, it would make sense to pay as little and as late as possible on that, since paying it off doesn't eliminate a required monthly payment, and virtually any other use of the money would come with an actual ROI (investment return, or interest saved). Conversely, that 27K is actually losing value due to inflation so you're making money by waiting.

If I were in your shoes, I'd want to set up *some* kind of recurring payment just to feel like I'm making progress, but I don't see the urgency. You could be buying stocks, improving your home to save energy, or like you say, paying down other debt.

Do you have any debt other than the CPD and mortgage?

Redstone5

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #136 on: May 12, 2015, 03:12:17 PM »
Sorry, I should have explained. Under the terms of the consumer proposal we must pay at least $525 per month until the full amount is paid off or the total amount of our debt that was forgiven ($70,000) becomes due again and we lose the interest free grace as well. We are allowed two missed payments in a row but if we miss a third the deal would be cancelled. We can afford to pay more than $525 each month so that the debt would be removed faster, but, as you say, it makes sense to wait since there's no interest and the time is lowering the value of the payment each month.

The only issue is that carrying an un-discharged consumer proposal debt is similar to un-discharged bankruptcy in terms of our credit rating. For example, I wouldn't qualify for a student loan or probably any other loan until the debt is paid off. However, it's a great option for people in our situation who just had too much debt at a massive interest rate for so long it was impossible to get out from under. I was carrying a huge balance on a 20% credit card for ages. What an idiot :(

For years I was trying to keep up with the payments, not realizing that I could have lowered the interest, so I've paid back all of the credit card purchases and the interest, but I was still paying off the interest on the interest, if you know what I mean. Filing consumer proposal with the help of a govt bankruptcy trustee was a life saver for us. I wish more Canadians knew of this option.

Redstone5

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #137 on: May 12, 2015, 03:15:07 PM »
I should add, we have no other debt other than our mortgage ($368,000). The current market value of our home is about $380,000. Westcoast housing is very expensive. It's a little house and we rent out the basement suite for extra income.

Kris

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #138 on: May 12, 2015, 03:28:21 PM »
I've just read this thread. Very sad, especially since my husband and I are just pulling ourselves out of a similar situation.

Now that things are on the right track for us, I'm worried about falling back into the hole again. Our debt is due to be paid off next year and we're already trying to decide what vacation to save up for afterwards. In the past we've worked our butts off and saved towards large trips (several months out of the country) and then lived modestly afterwards to get back on our feet, but the last time we came home again it was much harder to recover and mu husband was out of work for a while which sank us financially. Four years later we're almost back to where we started. 

A lot of people on this thread were asking what would make people live that way, but for myself it's to do with my family's history. None of my grandparents lived to retire. Only one lived to her fifties, and both my grandfathers died in their forties, and my mother got cancer at 55, although she survived and turns 60 this year. One of my grandfathers lived in poverty-style for years so he could retire lavishly, and then died at 45 and his 25-year old new wife got all the money instead.

With my history, it's hard to think about saving for long term goals when I think that I might not be around to enjoy it. It sometimes makes more sense to live for today and enjoy those "retirement" experiences like spending time with our kids and travel, instead of looking forward to the future that might not happen.

However, I don't want to live with the constant worry of debt, or pass on that worry to my kids. Any suggestions on how to change our mindset about long term saving?
May I suggest, at a minimum, that the first thing you save up for when your debt is zeroed out is *not* a vacation? Or at least, save for other things simultaneously?
I have a similar situation, at least within a certain compartment of my finances. I had a tough winter and spring for free cash (underperforming rentals), although net worth increased due to high retirement contributions and good market performance. Things are dramatically improving, and I'll quickly neutralize the short-term debt that I used to avoid cutting investment rates.
I could have a lot of fun with the money I expect to see this summer. But the logical side of me says that I can find great enjoyment in small, reasonable expenses instead of blowing it all - the best of both worlds. So I will probably allocate the cash 70-30 in favor of investments, maybe higher. And I'll still have lots of fun.

This is a good suggestion.  I would add to it: We have several savings accounts with our bank, which each have a designated function:  Charity, vacations, a fund to save up for an operation to fix my crappy eyes, etc. And of course, we have automatic withdrawals from our paychecks that go toward retirement funds, etc.  Every month, an agreed-upon amount goes into each of the savings "pots" so that we are putting money toward larger things that we want.  This should give you something to look forward to (saving steadily for a vacation) but also reinforce your new, better spending habits (not going on said vacation UNTIL you've saved the money for it).  Also, one of our savings accounts is kind of a floating account, so if for some reason we had something specific we wanted, we could use that "pot" to start putting money toward that goal.

As a clarification, we actually have plenty of money, and could simply just take some out of savings if we wanted something that cost more than a few hundred.  For example, I have more than enough money for my eye operation.  But the point is, I don't have enough money IN THAT POT yet.  So, I don't get it until I have the money.  (And it's worth pointing out that part of the reason I have plenty of money is that we put these rules in place in the first place! ;)

Redstone5

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #139 on: May 12, 2015, 03:39:13 PM »
Thanks so much, Kris. I'm going to talk to the family today at dinner about opening up some savings accounts for our different goals. I'd like to have the money set aside where I can't see it as seeing a high balance in the checking account subconsciously makes we want to loosen up on our spending.

strider3700

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #140 on: August 30, 2015, 09:20:19 AM »
An update - I'll have to make it short because apparently the best thing I can do is take up religion and then pray and everything will just fucking work out perfectly.   Anyone know do I just walk in or should I knock at the church?

So They went to the debt consolidation/forgiveness place.   That place spoke with everyone they owed money to and an agreement was reached.    They have to pay their property taxes (no shit you have to pay your bills?) That works out to $500/month  I'm not sure for how long.  My first thought was shit things were already impossibly tight and that's a big payment but I need not worry.  83% of everything else they owed including their mortgage is forgiven. 83 fucking percent.   They now make a monthly payment of $150ish to cover everything else they owe.   Less than I pay per week on my mortgage.  Their credit is shot for 3 or so years.   So at first I was upset by this but now SIGN ME THE FUCK UP.   I don't need credit, but if I get only a tiny 75% of my mortgage forgiven I can pay the remaining 25% in under 2 years without really even feeling slightly deprived.  Hell I should take a few vacations and do something nice for myself before I do it.

Total fucking bullshit.   

crispy

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #141 on: August 30, 2015, 10:27:56 AM »
An update - I'll have to make it short because apparently the best thing I can do is take up religion and then pray and everything will just fucking work out perfectly.   Anyone know do I just walk in or should I knock at the church?

So They went to the debt consolidation/forgiveness place.   That place spoke with everyone they owed money to and an agreement was reached.    They have to pay their property taxes (no shit you have to pay your bills?) That works out to $500/month  I'm not sure for how long.  My first thought was shit things were already impossibly tight and that's a big payment but I need not worry.  83% of everything else they owed including their mortgage is forgiven. 83 fucking percent.   They now make a monthly payment of $150ish to cover everything else they owe.   Less than I pay per week on my mortgage.  Their credit is shot for 3 or so years.   So at first I was upset by this but now SIGN ME THE FUCK UP.   I don't need credit, but if I get only a tiny 75% of my mortgage forgiven I can pay the remaining 25% in under 2 years without really even feeling slightly deprived.  Hell I should take a few vacations and do something nice for myself before I do it.

Total fucking bullshit.

Do you have extremely lenient debt forgiveness laws in Canada?  In the US, a secured asset like a house or a car have to be re-affirmed in a bankruptcy meaning they agree to pay that in full, and the unsecured debt like credit cards can either be forgiven or a certain percentage can be paid per the bankruptcy agreement.

strider3700

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #142 on: August 30, 2015, 10:38:35 AM »
No idea.  I know of someone that walked away from their house and after giving it back to the bank they sold it and he had to make payments to pay off the difference between what he owed and what they sold it for.   I do know the friends in this story were overjoyed that the bank agreed to the conditions. Why the bank would ever agree to that I have no idea as they were perfectly willing to lose my business rather than eat $13 a month in fees...

Rezdent

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #143 on: August 30, 2015, 11:14:43 AM »
An update - I'll have to make it short because apparently the best thing I can do is take up religion and then pray and everything will just fucking work out perfectly.   Anyone know do I just walk in or should I knock at the church?

So They went to the debt consolidation/forgiveness place.   That place spoke with everyone they owed money to and an agreement was reached.    They have to pay their property taxes (no shit you have to pay your bills?) That works out to $500/month  I'm not sure for how long.  My first thought was shit things were already impossibly tight and that's a big payment but I need not worry.  83% of everything else they owed including their mortgage is forgiven. 83 fucking percent.   They now make a monthly payment of $150ish to cover everything else they owe.   Less than I pay per week on my mortgage.  Their credit is shot for 3 or so years.   So at first I was upset by this but now SIGN ME THE FUCK UP.   I don't need credit, but if I get only a tiny 75% of my mortgage forgiven I can pay the remaining 25% in under 2 years without really even feeling slightly deprived.  Hell I should take a few vacations and do something nice for myself before I do it.

Total fucking bullshit.
Apparently, you have to be total moron regarding finances for years and years - I'm happy to say I don't believe you qualify, strider3700.

And anyway, they aren't out of the fire.  The habits that got them here practically ensure they're gonna blow this chance too.

I've been watching an eerily similar trainwreck over the last year...laws are a bit different, but it kept going downhill after the consolidation.


After the consolidation, they still didn't get it together.  He was hiding his truck in his garage to prevent the repo man from latching onto it.  That worked until the bank started the foreclosure. 
Then it was bankruptcy, complete with some type of warden who gets their checks and pays their creditors, then cuts them an allowance (not sure of the deal).

Somehow, they managed an arrangement to sell the house, and were entitled to some equity but in the meantime they have to move out and can't afford even a sleazy motel, now couch-surfing/living in her car.

Finding a place to rent seems to be a sticky issue atm.  It appears that landlords want an application for each person over the age of 18, including the two unemployed adult children.  And verification of income.  And pet deposit for two huge dogs.

Sofa King

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #144 on: August 30, 2015, 12:43:01 PM »

Finding a place to rent seems to be a sticky issue atm.  It appears that landlords want an application for each person over the age of 18, including the two unemployed adult children.  And verification of income.  And pet deposit for two huge dogs.

I know some fucking idiots like this and look at their stupidity as entertainment.  I would only feel sorry for the dogs.

Candace

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #145 on: August 31, 2015, 09:56:09 AM »
An update - I'll have to make it short because apparently the best thing I can do is take up religion and then pray and everything will just fucking work out perfectly.   Anyone know do I just walk in or should I knock at the church?

So They went to the debt consolidation/forgiveness place.   That place spoke with everyone they owed money to and an agreement was reached.    They have to pay their property taxes (no shit you have to pay your bills?) That works out to $500/month  I'm not sure for how long.  My first thought was shit things were already impossibly tight and that's a big payment but I need not worry.  83% of everything else they owed including their mortgage is forgiven. 83 fucking percent.   They now make a monthly payment of $150ish to cover everything else they owe.   Less than I pay per week on my mortgage.  Their credit is shot for 3 or so years.   So at first I was upset by this but now SIGN ME THE FUCK UP.   I don't need credit, but if I get only a tiny 75% of my mortgage forgiven I can pay the remaining 25% in under 2 years without really even feeling slightly deprived.  Hell I should take a few vacations and do something nice for myself before I do it.

Total fucking bullshit.

I read through most of this thread and I admit I was waiting for these folks to really have to make some compromises and pay some penalties (besides stress) for their incompetence and irresponsibility. It looks like instead, they are just being given most of the value of what they owe, by having most of their debt wiped out. It would be very easy to get an ulcer or at least a sour stomach by thinking about it. After all, most of us here pay our debts and don't buy things we can't afford. So they basically get the ski vacation, the conference, the other trip and all the restaurant meals for free -- only the rest of us end up paying for them.

Is it time to bring back debtor's prison? Maybe not, but I just think people who do this sort of thing need to have the spigot cut off in some way that's effective. The poster above whose Texas friend now gets an allowance out of his paycheck sounds like he's getting a more just result.

I'm very sorry for the indirect stress this is causing you. I would say, if you're not going to lobby for different laws, then the best thing you can do to help yourself is to cut off these friends. Un-friend them on Facebook. Don't invite them over. Maybe your wife stays friends with them, but she can just not bring up the subject with you.

Or, you can continue to provide this forum with entertainment, and deal with the acidic tummy. Good luck.

debbie does duncan

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #146 on: September 01, 2015, 10:27:55 AM »
I 'll take a guess and say we have not heard the entire story .
Either your "friends " forgot some details.....did not hear all  the details correctly.
 I will wait for the next installment.
Thank you  strider3700 for your efforts in telling us this tale of dumb-assity.

GoldenNeko

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #147 on: September 01, 2015, 03:25:57 PM »
An update - I'll have to make it short because apparently the best thing I can do is take up religion and then pray and everything will just fucking work out perfectly.   Anyone know do I just walk in or should I knock at the church?

So They went to the debt consolidation/forgiveness place.   That place spoke with everyone they owed money to and an agreement was reached.    They have to pay their property taxes (no shit you have to pay your bills?) That works out to $500/month  I'm not sure for how long.  My first thought was shit things were already impossibly tight and that's a big payment but I need not worry.  83% of everything else they owed including their mortgage is forgiven. 83 fucking percent.   They now make a monthly payment of $150ish to cover everything else they owe.   Less than I pay per week on my mortgage.  Their credit is shot for 3 or so years.   So at first I was upset by this but now SIGN ME THE FUCK UP.   I don't need credit, but if I get only a tiny 75% of my mortgage forgiven I can pay the remaining 25% in under 2 years without really even feeling slightly deprived.  Hell I should take a few vacations and do something nice for myself before I do it.

Total fucking bullshit.

That's quite unfair to anyone being honest and paying his/her debts (and who actually pay their taxes, used that way to help irresponsible people).
Yet, I feel pretty sure you'll end richer than them in the end.
Don't envy them or feel angry. Pity is all they're worth.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 12:27:19 AM by GoldenNeko »

purplearcanist

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #148 on: September 01, 2015, 04:11:31 PM »
You know what would be awesome?  If this family realized right now that they have the chance to COMPLETELY TURN THIS AROUND.
They seek you out for help.  They listen and actually WORK to pay off their debt emergency and not be spenders.  Then they get up to a 50% savings rate.

I will say that I have had my fair share of bailouts, story for another time.

Breaker

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Re: Me being judgemental and a family friends story.
« Reply #149 on: September 02, 2015, 05:50:36 PM »
Pity their poor kids.  The kind of money (non) management they are learning will probably cause them to be just as irresponsible as their parents.  Not a nice way to live.

Breaker