Author Topic: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-  (Read 5119 times)

slow hand slow plan

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marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« on: September 10, 2019, 08:49:40 AM »
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-2019-09-09?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo

This has no meat no story... essentialy he is saying if you retire what are you gtoing to do?...ok fair i guess but that is a problem for everyone not just FIRE folks. Then he starts in with the worries about new taxes and not having worked enough for social security (even though you can check SS Benefits anytime you want online) 

ender

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2019, 08:56:28 AM »
that is perhaps the most stereotypically awful article about why FIRE is bad that it makes me wonder if it's satire

mathlete

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2019, 09:03:03 AM »
It's mostly trash, but I appreciated this part:

Quote
If youíre living on $40,000 in 2019, do you still want to live on the same inflation-adjusted amount when youíre 70? Is the goal to be mega-frugal forever? I donít get it.

Will my desires at 40 be similar enough to my desires at 30 to where I can live on the same inflation adjusted budget? I'm cool riding coach on a ten hour flight today, but will I wish I had the money for business class some day if I tear an ACL playing basketball?

Essentially, I'm young right now, and I don't need a lot to make me happy. But I have serious concerns about projecting that attitude to continue for the next 50 years.

bacchi

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2019, 09:07:53 AM »
that is perhaps the most stereotypically awful article about why FIRE is bad that it makes me wonder if it's satire

Yeah, it's satire. The sub-headline is "Dropping out to lead a stress-free life seems childish." How could that not be satire?

"You should continue to stay in your crappy job to prove that you can endure"
"Won the mega-jackpot lottery? Don't quit! Commuting at 8AM each day makes you more disciplined!"

ender

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2019, 09:12:22 AM »
that is perhaps the most stereotypically awful article about why FIRE is bad that it makes me wonder if it's satire

Yeah, it's satire. The sub-headline is "Dropping out to lead a stress-free life seems childish." How could that not be satire?

"You should continue to stay in your crappy job to prove that you can endure"
"Won the mega-jackpot lottery? Don't quit! Commuting at 8AM each day makes you more disciplined!"

The author engaging in the comments though seems.. very serious about the article though.

Which I guess makes it serious... lol.

martyconlonontherun

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2019, 09:13:37 AM »
The problem with these articles isn't that his conclusion is completely wrong (there are a lot of risks financially and emotionally in retiring early). The issue is it deters people from trying. Everything he pointed out could still be an issue when you don't save your money. 40k per year when you are 70 might be high if you spend every scent now.

It's like people afraid of the future of driverless cars when there might be a .0001% chance the machine causes an accident. That's still way better than our current way of doing things.

spartana

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2019, 12:37:36 PM »
It's mostly trash, but I appreciated this part:

Quote
If you’re living on $40,000 in 2019, do you still want to live on the same inflation-adjusted amount when you’re 70? Is the goal to be mega-frugal forever? I don’t get it.

Will my desires at 40 be similar enough to my desires at 30 to where I can live on the same inflation adjusted budget? I'm cool riding coach on a ten hour flight today, but will I wish I had the money for business class some day if I tear an ACL playing basketball?

Essentially, I'm young right now, and I don't need a lot to make me happy. But I have serious concerns about projecting that attitude to continue for the next 50 years.
But isn't that the whole point of retiring early? To be able to do all the things you might not be able if you wait until a tradition retirement age when age, illness, disability or death may make doing those things harder? To be able to travel/live a bit rougher or in more interesting and physically uncomfortable ways ways while you're fit and healthy?  Would working longer into your mid or late 60s mean you'll enjoy that 10 hour flight more because you worked years longer to fund business class in your 70s than you would at 35 or 40 flying coach?

Most of us who have retired in our 30s or 40s are going to have a very long time to do all those more physically challenging thing while younger (decades!) so I don't think we are going to be to concerned if we aren't as comfortable or able to do a long flight or climb mountains or trek across Africa once in our 70s. After 35 or 40 years or so retired I plan to slow down, read a few good books, binge watch old movies and have my personal cabana boy bring me mimosas and fan me with palm fronds.

As for the article...meh. Same old concerns and thinking from deep inside the box. I did find it ironic that it said he retired in 2010 but I didn't see how old he was but he looked 70ish in his photo so probably retired in his mid 60s at...you know...proper retirement age...just a few years before you may break a hip getting into the bathtub or start forgetting your name. JK!

« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 12:51:15 PM by spartana »

slow hand slow plan

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2019, 01:28:59 PM »
Agreed ... I just hate how all of these articles just throw out some conclusion without ever mentioning or weighing in on any alternatives..
You might wish you did XYZ but keep working forever just in case

Brianmcg321

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2019, 07:45:00 AM »
I like how in articles like this it's either work or do absolutely nothing. Lol. "What are you going to do, sit on the beach 8 hours a day".

I guess some people have so little imagination, or creativity they really don't know what to do unless they are punching a clock. I really feel sad for people like that. They are like robots punching a clock to be discarded once their useful life is over.

Imma

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2019, 08:06:18 AM »
It's mostly trash, but I appreciated this part:

Quote
If youíre living on $40,000 in 2019, do you still want to live on the same inflation-adjusted amount when youíre 70? Is the goal to be mega-frugal forever? I donít get it.

Will my desires at 40 be similar enough to my desires at 30 to where I can live on the same inflation adjusted budget? I'm cool riding coach on a ten hour flight today, but will I wish I had the money for business class some day if I tear an ACL playing basketball?

Essentially, I'm young right now, and I don't need a lot to make me happy. But I have serious concerns about projecting that attitude to continue for the next 50 years.

Reading this makes me feel like I'm from another planet. Most of my family have worked until their late sixties, they never made 40k or went through the horror of a 10 hour coach flight. You make it sound like that's hardship instead of a position of incredible luxury.

My main priority is quitting young (<45) and it's probably going to be on much less than 40k and I'm going to be so glad to be able to finally live a little. I don't expect to live until very old age anyway due to health issues so to be able to be free is going to be so much more important than the option to fly business class.

fattest_foot

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2019, 09:13:08 AM »
Reading this makes me feel like I'm from another planet. Most of my family have worked until their late sixties, they never made 40k or went through the horror of a 10 hour coach flight. You make it sound like that's hardship instead of a position of incredible luxury.

My main priority is quitting young (<45) and it's probably going to be on much less than 40k and I'm going to be so glad to be able to finally live a little. I don't expect to live until very old age anyway due to health issues so to be able to be free is going to be so much more important than the option to fly business class.

Yeah, I'm always baffled at the frugality arguments. We live on about $40k right now and we don't want for anything. In fact, I'd say we live a rather clownish lifestyle. It's one of those things where my wife and I don't bother with gifts on special occassions (birthdays, holidays, anniversaries) because if there's something we want, we just get it immediately. I guess the difference between "frugal" people and the general populace is that we just don't have many "wants." Our cars are 7 and 15 years old, our TV is close to a decade old (although we did buy a $100 32" TV last month!), and we almost never eat out at a restaurant.

When I hear about people who save $0, I'm perplexed at what they're spending their money on. We know most of our coworkers make similar salaries, which means a minimum of six figures for a two income household. If I was in Brewster's Millions, I'd be screwed.

I guess normies' "what would you do in retirement?" is the same as my "how do you spend all your money?"

BECABECA

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2019, 10:16:28 AM »
It's mostly trash, but I appreciated this part:

Quote
If youíre living on $40,000 in 2019, do you still want to live on the same inflation-adjusted amount when youíre 70? Is the goal to be mega-frugal forever? I donít get it.

Will my desires at 40 be similar enough to my desires at 30 to where I can live on the same inflation adjusted budget? I'm cool riding coach on a ten hour flight today, but will I wish I had the money for business class some day if I tear an ACL playing basketball?

Essentially, I'm young right now, and I don't need a lot to make me happy. But I have serious concerns about projecting that attitude to continue for the next 50 years.

If youíre like me, you calculated the 3.5% retirement withdrawal on your current stash and when youíre eligible for social security thatíll be extra money on top of the 3.5% youíve been living off. So if you want your lifestyle to balloon in old age, you can when the social security checks start rolling in.

NorCal

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2019, 10:24:40 AM »
Clearly someone at Marketwatch has realized that people click on any article with FIRE in the title.  So they write a ~weekly article with FIRE in the title, regardless of whether they have anything to say about it.

This will continue until people stop clicking on the articles.

This is how the internet works.

There's no reason to click on garbage clickbait content.  This is the 2019 equivalent of watching Jerry Springer.  It will only make you dumber.

Malkynn

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2019, 10:39:13 AM »
The most hilarious thing about these articles is that it makes the egregious presupposition that people who are motivated to retire early are retiring with less money typically than people who retire at 65.


TomTX

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2019, 07:04:21 PM »
When I hear about people who save $0, I'm perplexed at what they're spending their money on. We know most of our coworkers make similar salaries, which means a minimum of six figures for a two income household. If I was in Brewster's Millions, I'd be screwed.

I would totally do the Brewster's Millions Challenge, if anyone wants to set me up!

singpolyma

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2019, 08:03:52 PM »
Quote
If youíre living on $40,000 in 2019, do you still want to live on the same inflation-adjusted amount when youíre 70? Is the goal to be mega-frugal forever? I donít get it.

Someone needs to show this person ERE or something more extreme so they can see what something approaching "mega-frugal" might look like.  $40k in *expenses* is just lower-middle-class.

Cannot Wait!

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2019, 07:57:09 PM »
It's mostly trash, but I appreciated this part:

Quote
If youíre living on $40,000 in 2019, do you still want to live on the same inflation-adjusted amount when youíre 70? Is the goal to be mega-frugal forever? I donít get it.

Will my desires at 40 be similar enough to my desires at 30 to where I can live on the same inflation adjusted budget? I'm cool riding coach on a ten hour flight today, but will I wish I had the money for business class some day if I tear an ACL playing basketball?

Essentially, I'm young right now, and I don't need a lot to make me happy. But I have serious concerns about projecting that attitude to continue for the next 50 years.
But isn't that the whole point of retiring early? To be able to do all the things you might not be able if you wait until a tradition retirement age when age, illness, disability or death may make doing those things harder? To be able to travel/live a bit rougher or in more interesting and physically uncomfortable ways ways while you're fit and healthy?  Would working longer into your mid or late 60s mean you'll enjoy that 10 hour flight more because you worked years longer to fund business class in your 70s than you would at 35 or 40 flying coach?

Most of us who have retired in our 30s or 40s are going to have a very long time to do all those more physically challenging thing while younger (decades!) so I don't think we are going to be to concerned if we aren't as comfortable or able to do a long flight or climb mountains or trek across Africa once in our 70s. After 35 or 40 years or so retired I plan to slow down, read a few good books, binge watch old movies and have my personal cabana boy bring me mimosas and fan me with palm fronds.

As for the article...meh. Same old concerns and thinking from deep inside the box. I did find it ironic that it said he retired in 2010 but I didn't see how old he was but he looked 70ish in his photo so probably retired in his mid 60s at...you know...proper retirement age...just a few years before you may break a hip getting into the bathtub or start forgetting your name. JK!

I think the point IS to be frugal forever!  It is not a hardship.
My desires at 30 were not that much different than they are now in my fifties -  I'm lucky to be healthy enough to do all the physical things I want to do still.  I still like to hike, camp, do sports, enjoy good food, spend time with friends, read, etc.  Instead of the joys of raising my kids, I'm looking forward to grandbabies one day.

@spartana want to go halfsies on the cabana boy?

spartana

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2019, 11:30:03 AM »
It's mostly trash, but I appreciated this part:

Quote
If youíre living on $40,000 in 2019, do you still want to live on the same inflation-adjusted amount when youíre 70? Is the goal to be mega-frugal forever? I donít get it.

Will my desires at 40 be similar enough to my desires at 30 to where I can live on the same inflation adjusted budget? I'm cool riding coach on a ten hour flight today, but will I wish I had the money for business class some day if I tear an ACL playing basketball?

Essentially, I'm young right now, and I don't need a lot to make me happy. But I have serious concerns about projecting that attitude to continue for the next 50 years.
But isn't that the whole point of retiring early? To be able to do all the things you might not be able if you wait until a tradition retirement age when age, illness, disability or death may make doing those things harder? To be able to travel/live a bit rougher or in more interesting and physically uncomfortable ways ways while you're fit and healthy?  Would working longer into your mid or late 60s mean you'll enjoy that 10 hour flight more because you worked years longer to fund business class in your 70s than you would at 35 or 40 flying coach?

Most of us who have retired in our 30s or 40s are going to have a very long time to do all those more physically challenging thing while younger (decades!) so I don't think we are going to be to concerned if we aren't as comfortable or able to do a long flight or climb mountains or trek across Africa once in our 70s. After 35 or 40 years or so retired I plan to slow down, read a few good books, binge watch old movies and have my personal cabana boy bring me mimosas and fan me with palm fronds.

As for the article...meh. Same old concerns and thinking from deep inside the box. I did find it ironic that it said he retired in 2010 but I didn't see how old he was but he looked 70ish in his photo so probably retired in his mid 60s at...you know...proper retirement age...just a few years before you may break a hip getting into the bathtub or start forgetting your name. JK!

I think the point IS to be frugal forever!  It is not a hardship.
My desires at 30 were not that much different than they are now in my fifties -  I'm lucky to be healthy enough to do all the physical things I want to do still.  I still like to hike, camp, do sports, enjoy good food, spend time with friends, read, etc.  Instead of the joys of raising my kids, I'm looking forward to grandbabies one day.

@spartana want to go halfsies on the cabana boy?
As long as I get the good half ;-).

dougules

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2019, 12:18:34 PM »
Is this article worth me feeding the clickbait monster?  I feel like I should stop even looking at the worst ones since clicking the link is just perpetuating it.  And getting a thread in a forum for your article means you're getting decent at clickbaiting. 

dougules

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2019, 12:22:02 PM »
It's mostly trash, but I appreciated this part:

Quote
If youíre living on $40,000 in 2019, do you still want to live on the same inflation-adjusted amount when youíre 70? Is the goal to be mega-frugal forever? I donít get it.

Will my desires at 40 be similar enough to my desires at 30 to where I can live on the same inflation adjusted budget? I'm cool riding coach on a ten hour flight today, but will I wish I had the money for business class some day if I tear an ACL playing basketball?

Essentially, I'm young right now, and I don't need a lot to make me happy. But I have serious concerns about projecting that attitude to continue for the next 50 years.
But isn't that the whole point of retiring early? To be able to do all the things you might not be able if you wait until a tradition retirement age when age, illness, disability or death may make doing those things harder? To be able to travel/live a bit rougher or in more interesting and physically uncomfortable ways ways while you're fit and healthy?  Would working longer into your mid or late 60s mean you'll enjoy that 10 hour flight more because you worked years longer to fund business class in your 70s than you would at 35 or 40 flying coach?

Most of us who have retired in our 30s or 40s are going to have a very long time to do all those more physically challenging thing while younger (decades!) so I don't think we are going to be to concerned if we aren't as comfortable or able to do a long flight or climb mountains or trek across Africa once in our 70s. After 35 or 40 years or so retired I plan to slow down, read a few good books, binge watch old movies and have my personal cabana boy bring me mimosas and fan me with palm fronds.

As for the article...meh. Same old concerns and thinking from deep inside the box. I did find it ironic that it said he retired in 2010 but I didn't see how old he was but he looked 70ish in his photo so probably retired in his mid 60s at...you know...proper retirement age...just a few years before you may break a hip getting into the bathtub or start forgetting your name. JK!

I think the point IS to be frugal forever!  It is not a hardship.
My desires at 30 were not that much different than they are now in my fifties -  I'm lucky to be healthy enough to do all the physical things I want to do still.  I still like to hike, camp, do sports, enjoy good food, spend time with friends, read, etc.  Instead of the joys of raising my kids, I'm looking forward to grandbabies one day.

@spartana want to go halfsies on the cabana boy?
As long as I get the good half ;-).

Is there a rent vs. buy comparison for cabana boys?

spartana

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2019, 12:31:38 PM »
It's mostly trash, but I appreciated this part:

Quote
If you’re living on $40,000 in 2019, do you still want to live on the same inflation-adjusted amount when you’re 70? Is the goal to be mega-frugal forever? I don’t get it.

Will my desires at 40 be similar enough to my desires at 30 to where I can live on the same inflation adjusted budget? I'm cool riding coach on a ten hour flight today, but will I wish I had the money for business class some day if I tear an ACL playing basketball?

Essentially, I'm young right now, and I don't need a lot to make me happy. But I have serious concerns about projecting that attitude to continue for the next 50 years.
But isn't that the whole point of retiring early? To be able to do all the things you might not be able if you wait until a tradition retirement age when age, illness, disability or death may make doing those things harder? To be able to travel/live a bit rougher or in more interesting and physically uncomfortable ways ways while you're fit and healthy?  Would working longer into your mid or late 60s mean you'll enjoy that 10 hour flight more because you worked years longer to fund business class in your 70s than you would at 35 or 40 flying coach?

Most of us who have retired in our 30s or 40s are going to have a very long time to do all those more physically challenging thing while younger (decades!) so I don't think we are going to be to concerned if we aren't as comfortable or able to do a long flight or climb mountains or trek across Africa once in our 70s. After 35 or 40 years or so retired I plan to slow down, read a few good books, binge watch old movies and have my personal cabana boy bring me mimosas and fan me with palm fronds.

As for the article...meh. Same old concerns and thinking from deep inside the box. I did find it ironic that it said he retired in 2010 but I didn't see how old he was but he looked 70ish in his photo so probably retired in his mid 60s at...you know...proper retirement age...just a few years before you may break a hip getting into the bathtub or start forgetting your name. JK!

I think the point IS to be frugal forever!  It is not a hardship.
My desires at 30 were not that much different than they are now in my fifties -  I'm lucky to be healthy enough to do all the physical things I want to do still.  I still like to hike, camp, do sports, enjoy good food, spend time with friends, read, etc.  Instead of the joys of raising my kids, I'm looking forward to grandbabies one day.

@spartana want to go halfsies on the cabana boy?
As long as I get the good half ;-).

Is there a rent vs. buy comparison for cabana boys?
Well since @Cannot Wait! and I are both more ERE then Bogelheads we probably have to rent if we want a "good" cabana boy. To buy a fancy pants one outright might be too much ;-).

And no the article isn't worth reading imho but then I hate most anti-FIRE article as they seem so limited in scope. and understanding.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 12:34:49 PM by spartana »

Cannot Wait!

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Re: marketwatch why-the-fire-movement-leaves-me-cold-
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2019, 01:10:12 PM »
@spartana  Ok, I'll take take his bad side ;)