Author Topic: Mafia Lanes!  (Read 9479 times)

rudimentsofgruel

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Mafia Lanes!
« on: October 20, 2017, 07:12:14 PM »
This was a protest against a new bike lane in Minneapolis this week. Real human beings actually took time out of their lives that they will never get back to do this.

farfromfire

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2017, 11:43:25 AM »
...
I am literally speechless. I am without speech.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2017, 01:19:21 PM »
That has got to be a joke.  "Cars first"?????

nereo

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2017, 01:25:05 PM »
(Bike) Mafia Lanes:
...I'm just trying to imagine fat mobsters on bicycles.

oh wait, I found it!


rudimentsofgruel

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2017, 03:25:32 PM »
That has got to be a joke.  "Cars first"?????

The original organizer did it as a joke, but apparently some people came out in earnest. However, looking at the smiles on some of the faces, I feel like some of them are in on the joke.

MgoSam

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 10:19:02 AM »
Yeah I remember seeing that on my Facebook newsfeed (I live in the Twin Cities). Apparently a few former (or current, unsure which) city council members were part of the "protest."

Undecided

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 05:40:00 PM »
This is not really related (other than that the OP reminded me of it), but I have been somewhat following a story out of Seattle about a collision between a cyclist and a pedestrian on a multi-use path. The cyclist comes across (to me) as a jerk, and I'm sure he'll get no sympathy, but, at the same time, he's acting toward the pedestrian like many drivers act about cyclists (especially after hitting them). So much so that I have wondered whether he's actually trying to deliver some lesson (but more likely he's just a jerk).

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/oct/18/woman-sues-hot-pizza-bicyclist-who-crashed-into-he/#/0

nereo

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 06:13:53 PM »
sometimes a person is just a jerk, and that's about as deep as it gets.

StockBeard

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2017, 02:32:48 AM »
This has to be a joke, these folks look like they're doing it ironically.

Just Joe

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2017, 09:38:29 AM »
I wouldn't mind some "mafia lanes" in my town.

Daniel

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2017, 11:44:53 AM »
There is someone at my work who takes every opportunity to complain about bike lanes. I wish I remembered the exact quote, but he said something like: "It's people's right to drive as many places as possible as fast as possible and bike lanes are getting in the way". Many weeks later I thought of a quip about quoting the Constitution and it's guaranteed right to drive. I really try to avoid talking to him.

MgoSam

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 12:36:54 PM »
This is not really related (other than that the OP reminded me of it), but I have been somewhat following a story out of Seattle about a collision between a cyclist and a pedestrian on a multi-use path. The cyclist comes across (to me) as a jerk, and I'm sure he'll get no sympathy, but, at the same time, he's acting toward the pedestrian like many drivers act about cyclists (especially after hitting them). So much so that I have wondered whether he's actually trying to deliver some lesson (but more likely he's just a jerk).

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/oct/18/woman-sues-hot-pizza-bicyclist-who-crashed-into-he/#/0

Wow that biker sounds like a real piece of work. I truly hope that he was having a bad day or something if he did act like that. I'm all for biker lanes as I believe it is better for people to bike, and that includes drivers. That said, bikers themselves aren't the best advocate. I've met many asshole bikers on the road and their attitude helps me understand the hatred some drivers have towards bikers.

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 12:50:08 PM »
This is not really related (other than that the OP reminded me of it), but I have been somewhat following a story out of Seattle about a collision between a cyclist and a pedestrian on a multi-use path. The cyclist comes across (to me) as a jerk, and I'm sure he'll get no sympathy, but, at the same time, he's acting toward the pedestrian like many drivers act about cyclists (especially after hitting them). So much so that I have wondered whether he's actually trying to deliver some lesson (but more likely he's just a jerk).

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/oct/18/woman-sues-hot-pizza-bicyclist-who-crashed-into-he/#/0

Wow that biker sounds like a real piece of work. I truly hope that he was having a bad day or something if he did act like that. I'm all for biker lanes as I believe it is better for people to bike, and that includes drivers. That said, bikers themselves aren't the best advocate. I've met many asshole bikers on the road and their attitude helps me understand the hatred some drivers have towards bikers.

My personal favorites are the cyclist families who feel compelled to bring their kiddos onto a closed marathon course where the signs, clearly posted in at least two languages, say that there is a running race in progress and cyclists are required to yield to all pedestrians. They make sure to bring a kiddo who can't quite control his or her bike, who weaves back and forth, who cuts in front of the runners or who runs people off the trail. Then the parents bleat: "sorr-reeeeeee!" and giggle as though injuring someone who's already pushing his or her body to the limit, distracting someone who's trying to set a new record and who has paid a large sum of money for the privilege of recording a personal best time, or disqualifying somebody by touching or otherwise "helping" them despite their pleas to be left alone is somehow a funny little gaffe. They just don't get that there's a time and a place for teaching a kiddo how to ride a bike, and it is most assuredly not in the middle of a Boston qualifier where hundreds or even thousands of people are coming through at variable speeds and with differing levels of concentration.

Goldielocks

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2017, 06:19:06 PM »
This is not really related (other than that the OP reminded me of it), but I have been somewhat following a story out of Seattle about a collision between a cyclist and a pedestrian on a multi-use path. The cyclist comes across (to me) as a jerk, and I'm sure he'll get no sympathy, but, at the same time, he's acting toward the pedestrian like many drivers act about cyclists (especially after hitting them). So much so that I have wondered whether he's actually trying to deliver some lesson (but more likely he's just a jerk).

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/oct/18/woman-sues-hot-pizza-bicyclist-who-crashed-into-he/#/0

Wow that biker sounds like a real piece of work. I truly hope that he was having a bad day or something if he did act like that. I'm all for biker lanes as I believe it is better for people to bike, and that includes drivers. That said, bikers themselves aren't the best advocate. I've met many asshole bikers on the road and their attitude helps me understand the hatred some drivers have towards bikers.

My personal favorites are the cyclist families who feel compelled to bring their kiddos onto a closed marathon course where the signs, clearly posted in at least two languages, say that there is a running race in progress and cyclists are required to yield to all pedestrians. They make sure to bring a kiddo who can't quite control his or her bike, who weaves back and forth, who cuts in front of the runners or who runs people off the trail. Then the parents bleat: "sorr-reeeeeee!" and giggle as though injuring someone who's already pushing his or her body to the limit, distracting someone who's trying to set a new record and who has paid a large sum of money for the privilege of recording a personal best time, or disqualifying somebody by touching or otherwise "helping" them despite their pleas to be left alone is somehow a funny little gaffe. They just don't get that there's a time and a place for teaching a kiddo how to ride a bike, and it is most assuredly not in the middle of a Boston qualifier where hundreds or even thousands of people are coming through at variable speeds and with differing levels of concentration.

Open jaw look -- has that happened more than once?


I do have a peeve about bicycle lanes:.
  Downtown put in a few separated and dedicated bike lane across town.  (E-W)  It is a pretty cool, full barrier, connects a long distance route,  takes up a full car lane which impacts the traffic trying to get to the bridge or out of downtown.  Downtown has the typical one way streets, plus no left turns during rush hours, plus is bounded on three sides by water.    The problem is that for 9 blocks in one direction, (next to where I need to drive to) there is NO RIGHT TURN allowed across these bike lanes.   Then 1 block north, coming back from the opposite direction, there is again 7 blocks of NO RIGHT TURN allowed, because that street, too, has a painted bike lane.     (I need to park in the block in between).   There is ONE road on the north side, before the water, that allows 2 lanes of traffic (no parking, too narrow), is not filled with tourists on cobblestones, and allows left /right turns (towards the bike lane area).   

Guess what?   I commonly see cyclists taking up a full lane along this road and cars do not expect to see them, nor look for them as they pass and merge.   (It is unsafe not to take up full lane because of narrow width).   Why or why take your life in your hands, and throttle heavy traffic when there are bike lanes on both blocks adjacent to the south, and a seawall bike path one block to the north?   

At some point, some of these remaining roads should say "No bikes".

ixtap

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2017, 09:00:55 PM »
OMG yes! Why do people choose the road over a dedicated bike lane?! I live right on a dedicated bike path. Right here, no one would think of not using it because the alternative is an interstate, but along other areas, there are sometimes more bikes in the road than on the path. WHY?

stealthwealth

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2017, 09:07:06 PM »
OMG yes! Why do people choose the road over a dedicated bike lane?! I live right on a dedicated bike path. Right here, no one would think of not using it because the alternative is an interstate, but along other areas, there are sometimes more bikes in the road than on the path. WHY?

Because the destination isn't on the bike path or it has weird/nonintuitive access.  Why don't drivers choose a less convenient route to get where they are going?  I mean, jeez. 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 09:09:04 PM by stealthwealth »

Goldielocks

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2017, 09:59:21 PM »
OMG yes! Why do people choose the road over a dedicated bike lane?! I live right on a dedicated bike path. Right here, no one would think of not using it because the alternative is an interstate, but along other areas, there are sometimes more bikes in the road than on the path. WHY?

Because the destination isn't on the bike path or it has weird/nonintuitive access.  ... I mean, jeez.
In the area I am talking about, this is definitely not the case.   I am not talking about cyclists that ride 1/2 block on sidewalk on the wrong side of the street to access a front door...

The E/W streets are laid out like this:  Bolded where bike lanes are.

Water
1) Seawall - bike route, no cars allowed
2) cobblestone tourist area, bikes can easily / safely get through and I see quite a few, for short passes, but too many pedestrians and, you know, cobbles.  Car travel severely impacted.. this is almost a pedestrian only street.
3)  Busy narrow 2 lane street in both directions, allows turns.. not a safe road for cyclists unless they take a full lane. 
--- I need to enter the building lot in this area ---
4) Road with dedicated painted bike lane, severely limited turns
5)  Road with separated 10 ft wide bike lane, concrete barriers, bike lane signals, no turns by vehicles across bike lane.
6) Busy through road, one way at my end (wrong way), connects highway through downtown, limited turns to the north.
7) Two way road, that has pedestrian only block in the middle of town (deadend).
8) Bike lane street
9) Side street that allows turns, but you really can't cross the perpendicular roads, so no through travel
etc.

There are also N/S bike lanes every 4th block or so.

So, out of 9 E/W routes or roads in a row, 5 of them have dedicated bike lanes of various separation from traffic.

LennStar

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2017, 01:08:47 AM »
AHAHA!! Mafia Lanes!
Nice one.

There is someone at my work who takes every opportunity to complain about bike lanes. I wish I remembered the exact quote, but he said something like: "It's people's right to drive as many places as possible as fast as possible and bike lanes are getting in the way". Many weeks later I thought of a quip about quoting the Constitution and it's guaranteed right to drive. I really try to avoid talking to him.
That one is easy! You have to answer:
You are totally right with right to move around! And since cars where unknown when they made the constitution, they could only have meant bikes with that! Let's make all roads to bike paths to honor the constitution!

ixtap

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2017, 01:27:16 AM »
OMG yes! Why do people choose the road over a dedicated bike lane?! I live right on a dedicated bike path. Right here, no one would think of not using it because the alternative is an interstate, but along other areas, there are sometimes more bikes in the road than on the path. WHY?

Because the destination isn't on the bike path or it has weird/nonintuitive access.  Why don't drivers choose a less convenient route to get where they are going?  I mean, jeez.

In the case of the stretch along a causeway, where did they come from/ are they going to?!

GuitarStv

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2017, 08:24:43 AM »
OMG yes! Why do people choose the road over a dedicated bike lane?! I live right on a dedicated bike path. Right here, no one would think of not using it because the alternative is an interstate, but along other areas, there are sometimes more bikes in the road than on the path. WHY?

Because the destination isn't on the bike path or it has weird/nonintuitive access.  Why don't drivers choose a less convenient route to get where they are going?  I mean, jeez.

Three reasons for me:

1.  I regularly choose the road over bike paths because it is dangerous to cycle at speed due to the amount of pedestrian traffic (joggers, people with strollers, people walking their dogs, etc.) on supposedly 'dedicated bike' lanes.

2.  The issue mentioned above is also a concern.  Roads in our city are typically laid out so that you can get where you want to go efficiently.  Dedicated bike paths are laid out wherever there is convenient park land.  This means that to use bike lanes for transportation and errand running you often end up having to go well out of your way.  I like cycling, but when I'm carrying 40 lbs of groceries and I've got a choice of going home from the supermarket via the 10 km route on the road, or the 16 km route that takes me far enough out of the way to use the bike path . . . I'm probably going to choose the road.  (Especially when using the bike path means that I've got to slow down to a crawl to safely pass the many people with their dogs on leashes blocking the whole path, the groups of people blocking the whole path, the children learning to ride their bikes in an unstable manner, etc.)

3.  Finally, bike lanes and paths are not maintained in our area during the winter.  This means that all my winter cycling has to be done on the road out of necessity, since the roads are plowed and salted.

ixtap

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2017, 09:37:19 AM »
Around here it is usually clubs, so probably the first reason. So instead modulating their speed on the path designed for their safety, they expect everyone else to modulate their speed...yep, not convinced this is anything other than selfish stupidity. I lobby for those bike paths and lanes so that I and others can move around safely, while they are demonstrating that it is a waste of taxpayer funds.

When I bike and there are pedestrians in my way, I slow down. When there are cyclists on the road with no path or lane around, I slow down. When there are bikes choosing the road over the bike path or lane, I also slow down, but I am a lot more perturbed than either of the first two scenarios. Heck, even when I am biking and see people use the road, including dodging off the path to go down the road the wrong way, I am also pissy. I yell at them then, though, whereas I would never yell at anyone on a bike while I am yielding a ton of steel.



GuitarStv

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2017, 11:25:15 AM »
Around here it is usually clubs, so probably the first reason. So instead modulating their speed on the path designed for their safety, they expect everyone else to modulate their speed...yep, not convinced this is anything other than selfish stupidity. I lobby for those bike paths and lanes so that I and others can move around safely, while they are demonstrating that it is a waste of taxpayer funds.

You're upset that they're using the roads legally because some bike paths were built that obviously don't meet their needs?

There also appears to be some pot/kettle stuff going on.  You're railing against the 'selfish stupidity' of wanting to cycle at a quicker pace . . . because you want to (based on your own criteria 'selfishly and stupidly') drive at a quicker pace?  Can you better explain your reasoning on this, and why one is OK and the other is not?


When I bike and there are pedestrians in my way, I slow down. When there are cyclists on the road with no path or lane around, I slow down. When there are bikes choosing the road over the bike path or lane, I also slow down, but I am a lot more perturbed than either of the first two scenarios.

We already covered the reasons that to avoid segregated bike paths.  There are a variety of reasons why a cyclist may choose not to cycle in a bike lane on the side of a road.  I occasionally do this because:
- There are cars parked in the bike lane, debris in the bike lane, large potholes, uneven pavement with gaps, etc.  These hazards are dangerous to cycle over and can catch your tire and flip you over the bike.  The safest course of action for a cyclist is to signal and safely merge into the road well in advance of the obstacle, then signal and merge back after passing it.
- The bike lane is about to end (safest course of action for a cyclist is to merge into traffic well in advance of the end of the lane).

The problem is that it's not always easy to see from your car what is evident from a bike.  In my experience cyclists tend to want to stay in bike lanes on the street.  If they're in the street there's usually a reason.


Heck, even when I am biking and see people use the road, including dodging off the path to go down the road the wrong way, I am also pissy. I yell at them then, though, whereas I would never yell at anyone on a bike while I am yielding a ton of steel.

I occasionally see cyclists doing stupid and illegal things too.  It is frustrating to have to see and deal with.  (I also regularly see people in automobiles run red lights and speed . . . also frustrating.)  What are you really hoping for by yelling at them though?

stealthwealth

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2017, 11:35:30 AM »
It comes down to this:  I drive my bike where it makes the most sense, based on the time of day, my energy level, my origin, my destination, what I happen to be carrying, weather conditions, and road conditions.  That is what dictates my route and whether I take the lane or not.  I have a legal right to use the road, the same as any other vehicle.  When I drive my bike in traffic, my moving speed is usually around 15-20 mph.  When I drive my car in town, I stay under 25mph.  There is a misconception that the destinations of car drivers are somehow more important than the destinations of bike drivers.  Are you using your car to go to the beach, or to the gym, to a movie, to have dinner with friends or go to an event, or some other form of recreation?  So am I with my bike (but I don't go to the gym).  Are you using your car to get groceries, pick up your kid from school, go to work, run an errand?  So am I with my bike.

Eric

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2017, 11:57:12 AM »
Cars first!  lol

How fucking deluded do you have to be to think that every locality in the country isn't car first?

Just Joe

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2017, 12:41:35 PM »
Expect the unexpected or physics will involuntarily educate you.

I don't like this expectation that the world yields for anybody. Yes the pedestrian ought to get the right of the way but anyone gets complacent and everybody gets hurt.

My recent experience was rolling along at ~15 mph near dusk on a bike path only to have a lady and her dog occupy both sides of the bike path. With a leash stretched across the path. Almost didn't see that and she was more concerned about her smart phone than anything else in the world. Even my blinky lights made no difference.

All sorts of bad ways that could have played out for all three of us. A hard stop was required.

She apologized, I accepted it, and went on.

Undecided

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2017, 01:13:34 PM »

The problem is that it's not always easy to see from your car what is evident from a bike.  In my experience cyclists tend to want to stay in bike lanes on the street.  If they're in the street there's usually a reason.

I generally ride as far right as I reasonably can, but often "the bike lane" (whether legally a bike lane, or just a shoulder, which bikes don't have to use in any case in my state) is really just the area that accumulates the debris that is pushed out of the roadway by motor vehicle traffic (or thrown from vehicles). For much of the year, there's a lot of grit and gravel in bike lanes and on shoulders here. I've had several instances where I was harassed by drivers for being out of the "bike lane," when I am avoiding broken glass, faulty sewer grates, gravel, dead animals or whatever, and have to remind myself that they are totally ignorant of the conditions. (Of course, that they don't even pause to think that they may not know all the facts is a more general problem!)

Although many people who use roads only to operate motor vehicles like to complain about bike infrastructure, I think it actually makes the motor vehicles lanes and/or the facing property better, too.

Just Joe

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2017, 02:08:45 PM »
Maybe with successive generations, more people will bicycle and thus be aware of the challenges of utilizing a bicycle and mixing with traffic. 

ixtap

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2017, 02:13:33 PM »
I have to walk passed the bike path to get from my home to my car and I use it regularly. The section from home to downtown is useless. I do know these things and specifically mentioned the causeway. Bikes have two legal options, but one is safer. Yet the more avid cyclists choose the less safe option, even when the causeway is under construction. Yes, I call that both selfish and stupid. I didn't take my own bike because I can't cycle 15 miles, work an 8 hour safety patrol on the water, then bike 15 more miles home, even if I could figure out how to carry my equipment.

Why would I yell at people? Because while there are some people who prefer to do whatever they please, there are also some who will consider safety when it is brought to their attention.

GuitarStv

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2017, 02:59:18 PM »
I have to walk passed the bike path to get from my home to my car and I use it regularly. The section from home to downtown is useless. I do know these things and specifically mentioned the causeway. Bikes have two legal options, but one is safer. Yet the more avid cyclists choose the less safe option, even when the causeway is under construction.

If most avid cyclists are choosing an option that doesn't utilize the bike path, there is probably a good reason.  I cycle to and from work, often carrying my laptop, change of clothes, and lunch.  It's 13.6 miles each way.  I avoid bike paths for the reasons listed above.  I suspect that until you try using your bike for commuting for a few months you will continue to fail to understand why the more experienced cyclists are doing what they're doing and feel anger.


Yes, I call that both selfish and stupid. I didn't take my own bike because I can't cycle 15 miles, work an 8 hour safety patrol on the water, then bike 15 more miles home, even if I could figure out how to carry my equipment.

So let me see if I'm reading this right . . .
- you're too lazy to ride your bike 15 miles
- too befuddled by the complexities of a bike rack to figure out how to carry things on a bike . . . but are calling the people who can "stupid"
- selfishly want bikes off the road so that you don't have to occasionally slow your car down
- are judging how people do something that you have admitted no real experience with


Is that about right?

ixtap

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2017, 03:10:48 PM »
I have to walk passed the bike path to get from my home to my car and I use it regularly. The section from home to downtown is useless. I do know these things and specifically mentioned the causeway. Bikes have two legal options, but one is safer. Yet the more avid cyclists choose the less safe option, even when the causeway is under construction.

If most avid cyclists are choosing an option that doesn't utilize the bike path, there is probably a good reason.  I cycle to and from work, often carrying my laptop, change of clothes, and lunch.  It's 13.6 miles each way.  I avoid bike paths for the reasons listed above.  I suspect that until you try using your bike for commuting for a few months you will continue to fail to understand why the more experienced cyclists are doing what they're doing and feel anger.


Yes, I call that both selfish and stupid. I didn't take my own bike because I can't cycle 15 miles, work an 8 hour safety patrol on the water, then bike 15 more miles home, even if I could figure out how to carry my equipment.

So let me see if I'm reading this right . . .
- you're too lazy to ride your bike 15 miles
- too befuddled by the complexities of a bike rack to figure out how to carry things on a bike . . . but are calling the people who can "stupid"
- selfishly want bikes off the road so that you don't have to occasionally slow your car down
- are judging how people do something that you have admitted no real experience with


Is that about right?

No.

"Too lazy" to bike 30 miles plus an 8 hour shift of physical labor.
"Too stupid" to carry 50 lbs. of bulky safety gear on a small folding bike.
Actually stated several times that I am extremely familiar with the path in question just don't happen to be able to use it when doing a certain kind of work.

But thanks for the personal attack.

Goldielocks

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2017, 12:01:18 AM »
Expect the unexpected or physics will involuntarily educate you.

I don't like this expectation that the world yields for anybody. Yes the pedestrian ought to get the right of the way but anyone gets complacent and everybody gets hurt.

My recent experience was rolling along at ~15 mph near dusk on a bike path only to have a lady and her dog occupy both sides of the bike path. With a leash stretched across the path. Almost didn't see that and she was more concerned about her smart phone than anything else in the world. Even my blinky lights made no difference.

All sorts of bad ways that could have played out for all three of us. A hard stop was required.

She apologized, I accepted it, and went on.

I came across this just last Saturday.  Except I was in a car, and the lady and small terrier type dog were on the cross walk in front of me (approaching from the forest path which crossed the road there).   It's a wide 4 lane road with grassed boulevard road.  The lady was just entering the cross walk on the far side away from me, when I realized her dog was crossing the street about 20+ feet in front of her on a retractable leash.   I could hardly see the leash or the dog.   Jeepers.  Hard brake.

LennStar

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2017, 01:49:25 AM »
Expect the unexpected or physics will involuntarily educate you.

I don't like this expectation that the world yields for anybody. Yes the pedestrian ought to get the right of the way but anyone gets complacent and everybody gets hurt.

My recent experience was rolling along at ~15 mph near dusk on a bike path only to have a lady and her dog occupy both sides of the bike path. With a leash stretched across the path. Almost didn't see that and she was more concerned about her smart phone than anything else in the world. Even my blinky lights made no difference.

All sorts of bad ways that could have played out for all three of us. A hard stop was required.

She apologized, I accepted it, and went on.

I came across this just last Saturday.  Except I was in a car, and the lady and small terrier type dog were on the cross walk in front of me (approaching from the forest path which crossed the road there).   It's a wide 4 lane road with grassed boulevard road.  The lady was just entering the cross walk on the far side away from me, when I realized her dog was crossing the street about 20+ feet in front of her on a retractable leash.   I could hardly see the leash or the dog.   Jeepers.  Hard brake.

Next time aim at the woman, because the dog does not know better.

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2017, 06:04:48 AM »
In most western countries there seems to be a decent understanding of the "rules of the road" for cars and while on city streets.
Unfortunately, there seems to be much less consideration given towards bike lanes and (particularly) dedicated bike paths.  I routinely encounter people walking 2 abreast across a bike line, children drawing with chalk and even city workers parking their trucks over bike lanes (presumably to not block cars on teh street).

IMO, municipalities need to enforce at least the lowest denominator of regulations on bike paths (i.e. "no blocking a bike lane") and citizens need to learn and respect their function (i.e. "look both ways before crossing; don't walk your dog blocking both lanes").  Some cities do this better than others. Until this minimum standard is achieved we waste money building them, critics get "proved right" that they operate sub-optimally, and we continue to encourage building based around cars instead of people.

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2017, 08:18:35 AM »
 I thought "Nazi Lane" was in poor taste, but I saw one that said "Suck It Lane" and that got a laugh out of me and a smile from the sign-holder.

These two streets have needed traffic slowing measures for a long time. I read city council minutes on the various planning committees; it's pretty fascinating how much thought goes into trying to figure out ways to change traffic behaviour.

nereo

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2017, 08:38:28 AM »
I thought "Nazi Lane" was in poor taste, but I saw one that said "Suck It Lane" and that got a laugh out of me and a smile from the sign-holder.

These two streets have needed traffic slowing measures for a long time. I read city council minutes on the various planning committees; it's pretty fascinating how much thought goes into trying to figure out ways to change traffic behaviour.

Given that mortalities from automobile accidents are among the leading causes of death for most age groups, it doesn't surprise me that we spend so much time/energy on changing traffic behaviour.
What does surprise me is that, given the sheer cost, risk of life, etc that we still (at least in the USA) have a societal skepticism for any programs which seek to reduce our use of personal vehicles by supporting other methods like cycling, mass transit or simply making our cities and towns more walkable.

I can't count how many times I've seen a transportation expansion project costing $50MM to $500MM go into the public comment period and have sidewalks and bike lanes be cut out of the design because they add 5-10% to the ultimate cost, with the lion's share going towards more roads used largely by single drivers in personal vehicles traveling short distances.

LennStar

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2017, 08:43:35 AM »
I thought "Nazi Lane" was in poor taste, but I saw one that said "Suck It Lane" and that got a laugh out of me and a smile from the sign-holder.

These two streets have needed traffic slowing measures for a long time. I read city council minutes on the various planning committees; it's pretty fascinating how much thought goes into trying to figure out ways to change traffic behaviour.

Given that mortalities from automobile accidents are among the leading causes of death for most age groups, it doesn't surprise me that we spend so much time/energy on changing traffic behaviour.
What does surprise me is that, given the sheer cost, risk of life, etc that we still (at least in the USA) have a societal skepticism for any programs which seek to reduce our use of personal vehicles by supporting other methods like cycling, mass transit or simply making our cities and towns more walkable.

I can't count how many times I've seen a transportation expansion project costing $50MM to $500MM go into the public comment period and have sidewalks and bike lanes be cut out of the design because they add 5-10% to the ultimate cost, with the lion's share going towards more roads used largely by single drivers in personal vehicles traveling short distances.

Basically you can achieve
A) slowing down
B) less deaths
C) more bike paths
D) nicer and cleaner cities

just by cutting the car lanes from the proposed streets, cutting costs by 90, and then adding trees and grass on that area, costing maybe 10% but they are worth it. And you still save 80%.

The overreaching socialist Big State has to cut costs after all!!!

nereo

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2017, 08:48:51 AM »
I thought "Nazi Lane" was in poor taste, but I saw one that said "Suck It Lane" and that got a laugh out of me and a smile from the sign-holder.

These two streets have needed traffic slowing measures for a long time. I read city council minutes on the various planning committees; it's pretty fascinating how much thought goes into trying to figure out ways to change traffic behaviour.

Given that mortalities from automobile accidents are among the leading causes of death for most age groups, it doesn't surprise me that we spend so much time/energy on changing traffic behaviour.
What does surprise me is that, given the sheer cost, risk of life, etc that we still (at least in the USA) have a societal skepticism for any programs which seek to reduce our use of personal vehicles by supporting other methods like cycling, mass transit or simply making our cities and towns more walkable.

I can't count how many times I've seen a transportation expansion project costing $50MM to $500MM go into the public comment period and have sidewalks and bike lanes be cut out of the design because they add 5-10% to the ultimate cost, with the lion's share going towards more roads used largely by single drivers in personal vehicles traveling short distances.

Basically you can achieve
A) slowing down
B) less deaths
C) more bike paths
D) nicer and cleaner cities

just by cutting the car lanes from the proposed streets, cutting costs by 90, and then adding trees and grass on that area, costing maybe 10% but they are worth it. And you still save 80%.

The overreaching socialist Big State has to cut costs after all!!!

I don't quite understand what you are proposing in responding to my post.  Specifically, what are you saying about car lanes and proposals to expand them.    I'm also not following your numbers of 90%/ 10% / 80% (cost compared to what, exactly?) and reconciling that with cutting costs and socialism.

tl/dr:  ...huh??

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2017, 11:08:22 AM »
"Too lazy" to bike 30 miles plus an 8 hour shift of physical labor.
"Too stupid" to carry 50 lbs. of bulky safety gear on a small folding bike.
Actually stated several times that I am extremely familiar with the path in question just don't happen to be able to use it when doing a certain kind of work.

You might be a candidate for an ebike - if you like to ride. Mine will go 35 miles per charge in pedal assist mode.

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2017, 11:41:39 AM »
"Too lazy" to bike 30 miles plus an 8 hour shift of physical labor.
"Too stupid" to carry 50 lbs. of bulky safety gear on a small folding bike.
Actually stated several times that I am extremely familiar with the path in question just don't happen to be able to use it when doing a certain kind of work.

You might be a candidate for an ebike - if you like to ride. Mine will go 35 miles per charge in pedal assist mode.

That is something we have looked into for another stage of our life. Right now I would just have to sell it in a couple of years because stage 1 retirement is to travel the seas on our sailboat.


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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2017, 01:33:24 AM »

I don't quite understand what you are proposing in responding to my post.  Specifically, what are you saying about car lanes and proposals to expand them.    I'm also not following your numbers of 90%/ 10% / 80% (cost compared to what, exactly?) and reconciling that with cutting costs and socialism.

tl/dr:  ...huh??

Yes, I know, for some it is totally unimaginable, so here baby-easy again:

OP said he has seen sidewalks and bike lanes cut to save 5-10% of costs.

I proposed to have the car lanes cut to save 90% of costs. Also I said the additional space should be used for something useful, like green stuff.

Friar

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2017, 03:15:29 AM »
This discussion reminds me of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzE-IMaegzQ

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2017, 03:00:20 PM »
"Too lazy" to bike 30 miles plus an 8 hour shift of physical labor.
"Too stupid" to carry 50 lbs. of bulky safety gear on a small folding bike.
Actually stated several times that I am extremely familiar with the path in question just don't happen to be able to use it when doing a certain kind of work.

You might be a candidate for an ebike - if you like to ride. Mine will go 35 miles per charge in pedal assist mode.

That is something we have looked into for another stage of our life. Right now I would just have to sell it in a couple of years because stage 1 retirement is to travel the seas on our sailboat.

So a folding electric bike... ;)

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2017, 03:18:28 PM »
"Too lazy" to bike 30 miles plus an 8 hour shift of physical labor.
"Too stupid" to carry 50 lbs. of bulky safety gear on a small folding bike.
Actually stated several times that I am extremely familiar with the path in question just don't happen to be able to use it when doing a certain kind of work.

You might be a candidate for an ebike - if you like to ride. Mine will go 35 miles per charge in pedal assist mode.

That is something we have looked into for another stage of our life. Right now I would just have to sell it in a couple of years because stage 1 retirement is to travel the seas on our sailboat.

So a folding electric bike... ;)

I wish! At twice the weight of my current folding bike, it won't balance well in the kayak.

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2017, 10:16:40 PM »
OMG yes! Why do people choose the road over a dedicated bike lane?! I live right on a dedicated bike path. Right here, no one would think of not using it because the alternative is an interstate, but along other areas, there are sometimes more bikes in the road than on the path. WHY?

Because some bike paths are designed more for recreation than transportation, and don't always go to where people work or run errands.  In many cities, bike path networks are also frustratingly incomplete, and you can end up with paths that are excellent in one part of town, but lack safe crossings or connections to another part of town you need to get to.  In these situations, it's sometimes more practical, safer, or faster to bike on roads.

And because people have every legal right to ride bikes on roads (excluding interstates and other limited access roads) as long as they obey traffic laws. 

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2017, 12:03:26 AM »


Because some bike paths are designed more for recreation than transportation, and don't always go to where people work or run errands.  In many cities, bike path networks are also frustratingly incomplete, and you can end up with paths that are excellent in one part of town, but lack safe crossings or connections to another part of town you need to get to.  In these situations, it's sometimes more practical, safer, or faster to bike on roads.
I think the frustration is when people avoid a good bike lane (one that connects, is wide, is not impacted by garbage / debris / parked cars / pedestrians), a lane that connects very well with another direct transportation route (not a rambling exercise path), ...   simply because it is a 1/2 block longer than staying on the current road.   At least, that is the only reason I can see for people using the road versus our bike network.

Quote
And because people have every legal right to ride bikes on roads (excluding interstates and other limited access roads) as long as they obey traffic laws.
Yes, and sometimes it is obvious that being an idiot is not against the law.

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2017, 06:15:56 AM »


Because some bike paths are designed more for recreation than transportation, and don't always go to where people work or run errands.  In many cities, bike path networks are also frustratingly incomplete, and you can end up with paths that are excellent in one part of town, but lack safe crossings or connections to another part of town you need to get to.  In these situations, it's sometimes more practical, safer, or faster to bike on roads.
I think the frustration is when people avoid a good bike lane (one that connects, is wide, is not impacted by garbage / debris / parked cars / pedestrians), a lane that connects very well with another direct transportation route (not a rambling exercise path), ...   simply because it is a 1/2 block longer than staying on the current road.   At least, that is the only reason I can see for people using the road versus our bike network.

Quote
And because people have every legal right to ride bikes on roads (excluding interstates and other limited access roads) as long as they obey traffic laws.
Yes, and sometimes it is obvious that being an idiot is not against the law.

In general, cyclists are usually pretty good judges of whether it's safer to
ride on the road or the bike lane.

FWIW, the only time I've ever been hit by a car (after almost 100K of road
miles during my bike trips) I was riding in the bike lane.

I look forward to the day when self-driving cars take the human idiocy
factor out of the equation.




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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2017, 10:11:10 AM »
For me it depends on speed. If someone is biking on a road with a 25 or 35 mph speed limit and they are doing close to that then it is safe. I wish more people would bike where it is safe to do so. Obviously you wouldn't ride a bike on an interstate with a 65 or 70 mph speed limit. Where bikes normally bother me is when they are going 20(or 15 up a hill) in a 45mph zone and everyone is having to slam on their brakes and/or unsafely pass.

Solution: most roads in America with a speed limit of 45 or higher need a minimum speed as well. Whether its a car or a bike someone going 20 when everyone else is going 45-55 is not safe. Can't ride your bike that fast? Choose another route. Can't safely drive a car that fast? You probably shouldn't have a driver's license.

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2017, 10:28:02 AM »
I think that all new roads should have bike lanes, bus lanes, and sidewalks, and that car lanes and parking lanes be reduced to make room for this, especially in downtown cores. Make driving the difficult option, and all active and communal transportation the easy choice. People tend to make irrational decisions to prioritize their own convenience, at the expense of the livability of the city for everyone else. Every street should have more bike parking than car parking, and bikes and pedestrians should have the right of way over cars. I know that sounds drastic to car people, but when you are a biker you realize how little care drivers take regarding cyclists and pedestrians, and I see near accidents all of the time. Reorder the priority on the roads, and we will end up with safer, more active, and less congested cities.

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2017, 10:55:23 AM »
I think that all new roads should have bike lanes, bus lanes, and sidewalks, and that car lanes and parking lanes be reduced to make room for this, especially in downtown cores. Make driving the difficult option, and all active and communal transportation the easy choice. People tend to make irrational decisions to prioritize their own convenience, at the expense of the livability of the city for everyone else. Every street should have more bike parking than car parking, and bikes and pedestrians should have the right of way over cars. I know that sounds drastic to car people, but when you are a biker you realize how little care drivers take regarding cyclists and pedestrians, and I see near accidents all of the time. Reorder the priority on the roads, and we will end up with safer, more active, and less congested cities.

This works extremely well when there's also attention paid to getting people (and their bikes) into and out of the downtown core and other places where people congregate. Most people who work or shop there can't also live there especially if they've got entry-level, seasonal, or service jobs. The families who live downtown also need some means to get their kids to school and to go to places where individuals and families like to be in large numbers: ballparks, stadiums, the local university, the major hospitals, the military base if there is one, the airport, and performing arts centers. Such things are seldom downtown simply because of the amount of space needed. Cities that have a public transit backbone that connects the downtown core with these key destinations, along with a couple park-and-ride or bus-fed terminals in the suburbs, tend to succeed in bike-centric and pedestrian-centric development provided people can bring bikes, pets, and suitcases on board. Sequentially speaking, the public transit backbone has to come first.

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Re: Mafia Lanes!
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2017, 11:01:46 AM »
For me it depends on speed. If someone is biking on a road with a 25 or 35 mph speed limit and they are doing close to that then it is safe. 

Sorry, but that is complete bullshit.
If you are going 25mph or faster on bike where the speed limmit is near that, then it is extremely dangerous.
First because most car drivers don't assume you drive that fast.
Second because the are so slow.

Both combines makes for sitations where the cars try to overtake in very short gaps. That means they drive back into the bike before they are sufficiently far away because they dont want to drive head on head into the car on the other lane (which would damage their precious)  and instead prefer to risk killing the cyclist.

I don't even want to try to count how often a car drove less then 2m in front of me back in the lane (or extremely close to me) when I was driving near 30 km/h in the 30 zone. I am already used to it (and brake if necessary), and it is more dangerous to me, but sometimes I want to just kick their metal so that the car divers can hear about their negligent murder try.

Quote
Where bikes normally bother me is when they are going 20(or 15 up a hill) in a 45mph zone and everyone is having to slam on their brakes and/or unsafely pass.
Nobody HAS to slam their brakes, especially uphill. If they have to, they drove very badly, because you should look ahead and anticipate other traffic.
And even less they HAVE to pass unsafely (like in my top example). It is their choice, based on idiocy and negligent to the biker. They can just wait for a space big enough to safely overtake or even - gasp! - drive a few minutes behind the bike if really necessary. They do wait at train crossings, right? So it's not like they are mentally incabable of waiting (and if they would, they should not have a driver's license to start with).