Author Topic: Losing bet  (Read 8665 times)

Frizhand

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Losing bet
« on: November 19, 2015, 10:59:41 AM »
There was another post on these forums about GoFund me very recently.  Hard to believe people have the audacity to ask for money after they take a gamble and lose.  He should stick to index investing...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/help-my-short-position-got-crushed-and-now-i-owe-e-trade-10644556-2015-11-19

tukk323

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2015, 11:37:28 AM »
Yeah.
I have about as much sympathy as I would for someone who bet the same amount of money on a random horse in a horse race

Kaspian

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2015, 12:38:33 PM »
So....  Does anyone think he would have helped someone who bought on margin and the stock had gone down?  "Please give me money," seems to be some weird new thing on FundMe and sites like it.  Not even a token reciprocation to a contributor--a "thank you" card, a promise not to do it again, or something?  He mostly blames E-Trade on his page for the whole thing happening.  :(

TheAnonOne

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2015, 01:27:03 PM »
Wow +800%

If only I had every last time I owned in that yesterday... Oh well.

MgoSam

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2015, 01:46:15 PM »
I feel like for people like him, it was only a matter of time.

I know a guy that speeds like crazy and doesn't wear his seat-belt. He got pulled over and ticketed for both, apparently it wasn't a speed trap but just an ordinary cop that saw him driving recklessly and took action, and so he argued that it wasn't his bad driving habits, but being "unlucky that the cop was there."

If this stock didn't skyrocket overnight, it would be another stock that eventually did him in. Live by the sword, die by the sword, and only the dead shall mourn you.

Gone Fishing

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2015, 02:55:43 PM »
Oops.

Proud Foot

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2015, 03:10:48 PM »
I'm surprised he has raised any money there.  And I cannot believe he seems to blame it all on etrade.  It's pretty obvious that he does not know what he is doing trying to short stocks on margin.

BarbeRiche

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2015, 03:30:53 PM »
I kind of feel bad for him but mostly for his wife who trusted him with their money.

Not that he was dishonest...just a bit greedy and unprepared.

gReed Smith

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2015, 03:42:44 PM »
The whole concept of that website is incredible.  People can raise $30k for a funeral.  Even if I felt the need to help bury someone I didn't know, who are the people that contribute after the first $2000 is raised?  A cremation and a modest urn can't cost that much, but people are donating enough to build a mausoleum. 

I wonder how many of these people donate today, and then borrow at a payday lender to make rent?

obstinate

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2015, 11:48:56 PM »
I kind of feel bad for him but mostly for his wife who trusted him with their money.
He says he's going to go back to trading after he covers this debt. I'll take gambling addiction for 500.

Dicey

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2015, 10:28:02 AM »
I kind of feel bad for him but mostly for his wife who trusted him with their money.
He says he's going to go back to trading after he covers this debt. I'll take gambling addiction for 500.
Hell, I'll take it for 100. Easy money.

MandalayVA

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2015, 10:32:42 AM »
It never fails to amaze me how many people willingly give away money to complete strangers.

gReed Smith

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2015, 11:21:44 AM »
It never fails to amaze me how many people willingly give away money to complete strangers.

I'm with you.  Why do they do that?  And how do I get some of it?  If I were a dishonest person, I would be covering every medical and veterinary bill via anonymous saps.

JordanOfGilead

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2015, 11:29:36 AM »
Hell, if I didn't have so much pride, I would start one of these to help with a down payment on a house or pay off my student loans. Too bad I have the integrity to recognize that my mistake is a result of my own actions and only hard work and discipline can get me out of that ...

Vertical Mode

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2015, 11:41:35 AM »
As a thought experiment, I sometimes I wonder whether a gambit for raising capital for FIRE through crowdfunding might just be a crazy enough idea to work. Just by sheer volume, crowdfunding sites get your case for donations in front of potentially millions of people. If, say 200,000 people actually contributed an amount between $0.25 and $5.00, you might gross ~$200-250k in donations from people fascinated by the concept. Not chump change, and could really accelerate the path to the finish line. Perhaps you write up a manifesto, much like Jacob from ERE does at the outset of his blog/book, and put it out to the community to see if it catches. As mentioned previously, it surprises me how willing people are to give money to people they don't know on the internet.

One would miss out on the skills-, character-, and discipline-building the long road to FIRE equips you with once you arrive, but at least the math might work out hypothetically. Also seems somewhat selfish, considering all of the genuine need that exists already.

(Not actually considering doing this, but kind of fun to bat around in my head).

MrMoogle

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2015, 12:14:46 PM »
As a thought experiment, I sometimes I wonder whether a gambit for raising capital for FIRE through crowdfunding might just be a crazy enough idea to work. Just by sheer volume, crowdfunding sites get your case for donations in front of potentially millions of people. If, say 200,000 people actually contributed an amount between $0.25 and $5.00, you might gross ~$200-250k in donations from people fascinated by the concept. Not chump change, and could really accelerate the path to the finish line. Perhaps you write up a manifesto, much like Jacob from ERE does at the outset of his blog/book, and put it out to the community to see if it catches. As mentioned previously, it surprises me how willing people are to give money to people they don't know on the internet.

One would miss out on the skills-, character-, and discipline-building the long road to FIRE equips you with once you arrive, but at least the math might work out hypothetically. Also seems somewhat selfish, considering all of the genuine need that exists already.

(Not actually considering doing this, but kind of fun to bat around in my head).
What most mustachians think of this:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/give-me-money-gofundme-campaigns/

Vertical Mode

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2015, 12:58:17 PM »
As a thought experiment, I sometimes I wonder whether a gambit for raising capital for FIRE through crowdfunding might just be a crazy enough idea to work. Just by sheer volume, crowdfunding sites get your case for donations in front of potentially millions of people. If, say 200,000 people actually contributed an amount between $0.25 and $5.00, you might gross ~$200-250k in donations from people fascinated by the concept. Not chump change, and could really accelerate the path to the finish line. Perhaps you write up a manifesto, much like Jacob from ERE does at the outset of his blog/book, and put it out to the community to see if it catches. As mentioned previously, it surprises me how willing people are to give money to people they don't know on the internet.

One would miss out on the skills-, character-, and discipline-building the long road to FIRE equips you with once you arrive, but at least the math might work out hypothetically. Also seems somewhat selfish, considering all of the genuine need that exists already.

(Not actually considering doing this, but kind of fun to bat around in my head).
What most mustachians think of this:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/give-me-money-gofundme-campaigns/

Thanks for the link. All reasonable responses in that thread, and pretty much what I would expect from MMM readers. I didn't know GRS had actually tried this experiment (one of the posters linked to his blog, apparently he got excoriated in the comments section for it).

I've given to a Kickstarter for a good friend of mine to pay for studio costs to record a folk album of his original tracks, was happy to support him and buy a copy of his album. Others are right, though - requests for cash to enable poor decisions or things they can't afford can be pretty annoying.

MgoSam

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2015, 01:54:15 PM »
As a thought experiment, I sometimes I wonder whether a gambit for raising capital for FIRE through crowdfunding might just be a crazy enough idea to work. Just by sheer volume, crowdfunding sites get your case for donations in front of potentially millions of people. If, say 200,000 people actually contributed an amount between $0.25 and $5.00, you might gross ~$200-250k in donations from people fascinated by the concept. Not chump change, and could really accelerate the path to the finish line. Perhaps you write up a manifesto, much like Jacob from ERE does at the outset of his blog/book, and put it out to the community to see if it catches. As mentioned previously, it surprises me how willing people are to give money to people they don't know on the internet.

One would miss out on the skills-, character-, and discipline-building the long road to FIRE equips you with once you arrive, but at least the math might work out hypothetically. Also seems somewhat selfish, considering all of the genuine need that exists already.

(Not actually considering doing this, but kind of fun to bat around in my head).
What most mustachians think of this:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/give-me-money-gofundme-campaigns/

Thanks for the link. All reasonable responses in that thread, and pretty much what I would expect from MMM readers. I didn't know GRS had actually tried this experiment (one of the posters linked to his blog, apparently he got excoriated in the comments section for it).

I've given to a Kickstarter for a good friend of mine to pay for studio costs to record a folk album of his original tracks, was happy to support him and buy a copy of his album. Others are right, though - requests for cash to enable poor decisions or things they can't afford can be pretty annoying.

Sad part is that I imagine for many of the people asking to get bailed out of their own circumstances will just go back into the pit if they somehow manage to raise enough money. It's really sad how bad most people are with money.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2015, 11:48:00 AM »
Sad part is that I imagine for many of the people asking to get bailed out of their own circumstances will just go back into the pit if they somehow manage to raise enough money. It's really sad how bad most people are with money.
The sad part is when they are banks and its our $Bn that bail them out and we don't get a choice

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2015, 03:13:01 PM »
I'm surprised he has raised any money there.  And I cannot believe he seems to blame it all on etrade.  It's pretty obvious that he does not know what he is doing trying to short stocks on margin.

It terrifies me that so many people blame others (in this case, etrade) for the very predictable consequences of their own bad decision making, and other people let them get away with it and don't call bullshit.

Short sells are for people who have enough money in reserve, or who can afford to sell other stock out of their portfolio to cover their positions if things go badly. It's a very high risk position to take.

It's not the world's job to foam-pad itself to protect imbeciles from their own stupidity. It would be different if etrade had screwed up and recorded his buy order as a sell. Then he'd have a legitimite complaint. But that's not what happened. Nor did anybody take his favorite puppy hostage to force him to short the stock. He came up with that bet all by himself.

It kind of reminds me of the scene in The Godfather, Part 2 when Michael Corleone is bitching to Hyman Roth about something, and Roth responds with a little anecdote about Moe Green, who was killed on Michael's orders in the first movie. The moral of Roth's story was: "This is the business we've chosen." There's a down side to every business, including day trading. Getting caught short is one of the risks you take when you sell short. People need to either stop bitching about the risks that are inherent in the activities they decide to undertake, or choose to different things. This dude doesn't have to flip stocks for a living. He could just as easily flip burgers, and enjoy a life with a lot less risk.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2015, 03:42:34 PM »
As a thought experiment, I sometimes I wonder whether a gambit for raising capital for FIRE through crowdfunding might just be a crazy enough idea to work. Just by sheer volume, crowdfunding sites get your case for donations in front of potentially millions of people. If, say 200,000 people actually contributed an amount between $0.25 and $5.00, you might gross ~$200-250k in donations from people fascinated by the concept. Not chump change, and could really accelerate the path to the finish line. Perhaps you write up a manifesto, much like Jacob from ERE does at the outset of his blog/book, and put it out to the community to see if it catches. As mentioned previously, it surprises me how willing people are to give money to people they don't know on the internet.

One would miss out on the skills-, character-, and discipline-building the long road to FIRE equips you with once you arrive, but at least the math might work out hypothetically. Also seems somewhat selfish, considering all of the genuine need that exists already.

(Not actually considering doing this, but kind of fun to bat around in my head).
What most mustachians think of this:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/give-me-money-gofundme-campaigns/

Apparently there are people who try to do just that, and then post links on the MMM forum begging for aid. Arebelspy mentioned that the mods delete them out pretty fast before the feeding frenzy begins.

So some of us (well, OK, mostly me) asked very nicely whether a few of those posts might be moved to the Shame and Comedy section instead of immediately putting them out of their misery. I may have squeaked about educational merits or some such balderdash.

Anyway, he hasn't come right out and said "no".

So, I'm taking it to mean that if we're very, very good little baby velociraptors and don't foam up the threads too much, and cruise over to this forum regularly, maybe one of the adults will drag living prey back to the nest for us.

Maybe.

Vertical Mode

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2015, 07:37:41 PM »
As a thought experiment, I sometimes I wonder whether a gambit for raising capital for FIRE through crowdfunding might just be a crazy enough idea to work. Just by sheer volume, crowdfunding sites get your case for donations in front of potentially millions of people. If, say 200,000 people actually contributed an amount between $0.25 and $5.00, you might gross ~$200-250k in donations from people fascinated by the concept. Not chump change, and could really accelerate the path to the finish line. Perhaps you write up a manifesto, much like Jacob from ERE does at the outset of his blog/book, and put it out to the community to see if it catches. As mentioned previously, it surprises me how willing people are to give money to people they don't know on the internet.

One would miss out on the skills-, character-, and discipline-building the long road to FIRE equips you with once you arrive, but at least the math might work out hypothetically. Also seems somewhat selfish, considering all of the genuine need that exists already.

(Not actually considering doing this, but kind of fun to bat around in my head).
What most mustachians think of this:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/give-me-money-gofundme-campaigns/

Apparently there are people who try to do just that, and then post links on the MMM forum begging for aid. Arebelspy mentioned that the mods delete them out pretty fast before the feeding frenzy begins.

So some of us (well, OK, mostly me) asked very nicely whether a few of those posts might be moved to the Shame and Comedy section instead of immediately putting them out of their misery. I may have squeaked about educational merits or some such balderdash.

Anyway, he hasn't come right out and said "no".

So, I'm taking it to mean that if we're very, very good little baby velociraptors and don't foam up the threads too much, and cruise over to this forum regularly, maybe one of the adults will drag living prey back to the nest for us.

Maybe.

Those facepunches would be epic, definitely "Wall of Shame" material. One wonders whether Rebs + Co. might just let one through and let that poster learn from getting pilloried for it as you suggested in that thread, but the predictable backlash probably leads to more work for the mods in the end.

Proud Foot

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2015, 01:18:01 PM »
All the more reason to stay well diversified and stick with what you understand.  Out of curiosity I started looking into KBIO. Since it went public in 2013 through close on November 13th it had an average volume of around 90k shares.  Of the seven days the market has been open since then (including today), the lowest single day volume was on the 16th at 3,522,100 and only the 16th and 18th did not have a volume above shares outstanding.  As of the June 30, 2015 quarterly filing, there were 4,124,004 shares outstanding...

MgoSam

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2015, 01:54:55 PM »
I just looked up the stock, I guess it was at 90 cents on Nov 13th, then 10 days later it was at like 39.80. Someone with some insight could have had a 44+x return in 10 days had they jumped in at the proper moments. Then they could have made even more money by shorting the stock as it's falling over 51% today.

Vertical Mode

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2015, 02:04:59 PM »
I just looked up the stock, I guess it was at 90 cents on Nov 13th, then 10 days later it was at like 39.80. Someone with some insight could have had a 44+x return in 10 days had they jumped in at the proper moments. Then they could have made even more money by shorting the stock as it's falling over 51% today.

Holy volatility, Batman!

zephyr911

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2015, 02:07:07 PM »
Thanks Martin Shkreli,  you asshole >.< lol

MgoSam

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2015, 02:09:36 PM »
I just looked up the stock, I guess it was at 90 cents on Nov 13th, then 10 days later it was at like 39.80. Someone with some insight could have had a 44+x return in 10 days had they jumped in at the proper moments. Then they could have made even more money by shorting the stock as it's falling over 51% today.

Holy volatility, Batman!

It's going to be delisted.

Kaspian

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2015, 02:26:54 PM »
Here's basically what a friend of mine did for her Kickstarter:

"Please give us money for our art project.  The plan is for my boyfriend and I to buy an RV and travel through the United States and Canada for 2 months and take photos of the reaction of people when we ask the question, 'Love is...?'  We need the money to buy an RV, for supplies, and our living expenses.  Thanks!" 

What the fuck?!!  Not only did they get what they were asking for but exceeded it!  Spoiled brats.  $7,600.  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/35431348/wabisabi-butterfly-what-is-love

I saw the photos--it was basically one big holiday.  I want people to pay me to travel around in an RV taking pictures.  :(

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2015, 03:22:36 PM »
I just looked up the stock, I guess it was at 90 cents on Nov 13th, then 10 days later it was at like 39.80. Someone with some insight could have had a 44+x return in 10 days had they jumped in at the proper moments. Then they could have made even more money by shorting the stock as it's falling over 51% today.

Holy volatility, Batman!

Penny stocks will often bounce around like that. It's why they're considered high risk investments. Very few pay a dividend. It's an old school approach to what investment used to be: people who know about the industry take a gamble on a venture that's selling stock to raise money for an initiative of some kind. The only way to reliably make money (as opposed to losing your shirt) is to be an industry insider, or to know one.

The smaller stock exchanges with less regulation are known for having a lot of this sort of thing.

MgoSam

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2015, 04:48:10 PM »
I just looked up the stock, I guess it was at 90 cents on Nov 13th, then 10 days later it was at like 39.80. Someone with some insight could have had a 44+x return in 10 days had they jumped in at the proper moments. Then they could have made even more money by shorting the stock as it's falling over 51% today.

Holy volatility, Batman!

That or pump and dump type schemes. I believe 50 cent did one a few years ago.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/11/50-cent-makes-87-million-on-twitter-encourages-fans-to-invest-in-scheme_n_807327.html
Penny stocks will often bounce around like that. It's why they're considered high risk investments. Very few pay a dividend. It's an old school approach to what investment used to be: people who know about the industry take a gamble on a venture that's selling stock to raise money for an initiative of some kind. The only way to reliably make money (as opposed to losing your shirt) is to be an industry insider, or to know one.

The smaller stock exchanges with less regulation are known for having a lot of this sort of thing.

Vertical Mode

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2015, 08:31:48 AM »
I just looked up the stock, I guess it was at 90 cents on Nov 13th, then 10 days later it was at like 39.80. Someone with some insight could have had a 44+x return in 10 days had they jumped in at the proper moments. Then they could have made even more money by shorting the stock as it's falling over 51% today.

Holy volatility, Batman!

That or pump and dump type schemes. I believe 50 cent did one a few years ago.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/11/50-cent-makes-87-million-on-twitter-encourages-fans-to-invest-in-scheme_n_807327.html
Penny stocks will often bounce around like that. It's why they're considered high risk investments. Very few pay a dividend. It's an old school approach to what investment used to be: people who know about the industry take a gamble on a venture that's selling stock to raise money for an initiative of some kind. The only way to reliably make money (as opposed to losing your shirt) is to be an industry insider, or to know one.

The smaller stock exchanges with less regulation are known for having a lot of this sort of thing.

50 Cent also went bankrupt not all that long ago:

http://blogs.wsj.com/bankruptcy/2015/08/04/50-cent-bankruptcy-by-the-numbers/

...I wouldn't necessarily take financial advice from someone called 50 Cent, either - if he was "Dollar" I might go for it, though.

MgoSam

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Re: Losing bet
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2015, 08:33:12 AM »
I just looked up the stock, I guess it was at 90 cents on Nov 13th, then 10 days later it was at like 39.80. Someone with some insight could have had a 44+x return in 10 days had they jumped in at the proper moments. Then they could have made even more money by shorting the stock as it's falling over 51% today.

Holy volatility, Batman!

That or pump and dump type schemes. I believe 50 cent did one a few years ago.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/11/50-cent-makes-87-million-on-twitter-encourages-fans-to-invest-in-scheme_n_807327.html
Penny stocks will often bounce around like that. It's why they're considered high risk investments. Very few pay a dividend. It's an old school approach to what investment used to be: people who know about the industry take a gamble on a venture that's selling stock to raise money for an initiative of some kind. The only way to reliably make money (as opposed to losing your shirt) is to be an industry insider, or to know one.

The smaller stock exchanges with less regulation are known for having a lot of this sort of thing.

50 Cent also went bankrupt not all that long ago:

http://blogs.wsj.com/bankruptcy/2015/08/04/50-cent-bankruptcy-by-the-numbers/

...I wouldn't necessarily take financial advice from someone called 50 Cent, either - if he was "Dollar" I might go for it, though.

AFAIK, I don't really keep up with 50 cent or anything, I believe that wasn't a true bankruptcy as opposed to him hiding his assets from a lawsuit.