Author Topic: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.  (Read 6321 times)

K-ice

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Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« on: January 27, 2017, 08:31:33 AM »

I'm not sure we would agree with this analysis.

http://www.financialpost.com/m/wp/personal-finance/family-finance/blog.html?b=business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/family-finance/dads-retirement-at-age-42-a-large-risk-for-family-with-five-children-mom-working-part-time

Brief, a family who save 1/2 their income & want to retire in their 40's are told they must wait until 60.

I think it is probably doable in 5 years if they don't get a bigger house.

What do you think?



PharmaStache

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2017, 09:59:26 AM »
We need to find these people and direct them here! 

So stupid that the only conclusion is for him to work 20 more years.  What if they don't care about driving new cars and giving money to their children to buy houses!

Gin1984

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2017, 10:08:14 AM »
Well to be fair, they are getting funds from grandparents that might not always be there, want to increase their spending with a new, bigger house and their current assets are not that great.  I'd not agree that they could retire in five years. 

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bacchi

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2017, 10:41:58 AM »
He could actually go part-time immediately and let the stash grow. If their take-home is $8200, a 1/2 time job in the same field would cover the expenses. If they don't upgrade the house.

Prairie Stash

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2017, 11:13:41 AM »
How does $2370+$2250=$3900? For the first 4 years of his retirement the child benefits are $2250, his wife brings in $400, his stash covers the rest. Realistically his cash savings should keep growing in retirement, for the first several years. Each child receives $5,400/year until they're 18 currently, its clawed back at higher incomes, not a problem here.

Then the next assumption is that when all the kids turn 18 and move on that they will keep the overly large house purchased for 7 people. Couldn't they downsize back to a $250,000 house?

Being a financial planner, he's missing obvious advice. Top up the TFSA for both parents, they have taxable accounts and $20,000 room in tax free accounts...

Overall a pretty terrible review.

K-ice

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2017, 12:09:12 PM »
OK I ran a few more numbers and with their current spending, ~$45K/year  5y is not possible.

Starting numbers (for those who don't want to open the link)
Family of 7 (edit 5 kids, I said family of 5 earlier)
Current stash: $374K
Current expenses: $45K
Current savings: $53K
Wish list:
Buy a bigger house for $150K more
Retire in 5years


The best scenario is that they keep their house, the wife has the $5K part time income and then they would amass a savings of about $1M and could retire in 8 years.
(I used 4% interest and $53K in savings added each year)

If they want the bigger house their stash immediately gets cut by $150K and I assume it increases their living expenses by 5% (tax, insurance utilities etc) .

So in that case, they need $1.06M and it will take them longer to get to their retirement, 11y.


Still, both of these scenarios are much better than the default work until 60. 

I didn't even take into account any government funds for the kids or retirement for the adults...



« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 11:08:41 AM by K-ice »

Prairie Stash

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2017, 01:37:44 PM »
if they buy a bigger house their stash gets cut by $0, they can likely get a mortgage at 3%, even in Canada. That equates to a payment of $854/month, according to CIBC, or $10,246/year. For the next 13-16 years that can get paid from their monthly child benefits based on the 2 youngest children or by working. If they were retired right now they have access to $270,000 in benefits, I assumed kids were 2,5,8,11 and 14, low income people get the full amount.

In the next 5 years they'll have access to $250,000 for savings. Conservatively this gets them to $600-650K if they don't get much in market gains (nothing). So start with the 4% rule on $600 and that's $24K, plus two other children are receiving $10,800 plus $5000 from the wife and its at $39,000.

Its putting all the little factors in like the temporary child benefits that mess the numbers up. Lumpy income is a pain to speculate about. But using K-Ices analysis and assuming the child benefits of $270,000 pay for the $150,000 plus interest house increase puts them at 8 years. Lets check on them in 5 years to see if they do it or go 3 more years and retire at 45....

But why can't they sell the house to fund their retirement after the kids leave home? The mortgage is 100% paid for by the kids benefit cheques then. Their stash never needs to cover it.

Did you also assume constant expenses? Presumably food ($10,800), clothing($2268), RESP ($996) gifts/charities($5616) and children's activities ($4,800/year) will drop as the kids become adults...there's symmetry here, as the benefits stop expenses drop.

honeybbq

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2017, 02:13:10 PM »
You can all face punch me, but with 5 kids and very little savings, this family is going to need to work a LOT longer than 5 years. Even cheap trips cost money, even if it's camping. What about when they have hungry teenagers? Good gravy, I'm honestly surprised they are really considering it.

RichMoose

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2017, 02:38:29 PM »

I'm not sure we would agree with this analysis.

http://www.financialpost.com/m/wp/personal-finance/family-finance/blog.html?b=business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/family-finance/dads-retirement-at-age-42-a-large-risk-for-family-with-five-children-mom-working-part-time

Brief, a family who save 1/2 their income & want to retire in their 40's are told they must wait until 60.

I think it is probably doable in 5 years if they don't get a bigger house.

What do you think?

It's an interesting Case Study compared to the usual "We earn $150,000 a year and live in a $1 million house but have no savings, FP please help because we want to retire tomorrow and travel to Europe every year."

I would say he's gambling hard if he's retiring in 5 years with kids. If they keep up their savings right now they could have about $750,000 inflation adjusted dollars in their savings accounts (not including RESP). That should provide $30,000 a year + $5,000 from her craft teaching gig. It gets them close to $3000 a month before subsidies. I personally feel that it's not prudent to factor government subsidies in super early retirement. Kids will move out of the house eventually so those payments will go. It also allows no wiggle room for larger expenses such as vehicles and home maintenance.

In their shoes I would target a monthly income from a portfolio of around $3,500. That means about $1.1M in savings. He can do that in about 8 years. Still retiring in his mid-40s. That's pretty good by my book.

Oh and no house upgrade.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2017, 01:33:58 AM »
My favorite quote in this article is (referring to the retiring in 5 years plan):
Quote
With this plan, family income would be $3,900 a month. This income would cover present expenses and allow a little saving

But the answer is still 'no'? I mean, really? And this includes paying for the kid's college? Just blows my mind...

financialfreedomsloth

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2017, 04:42:55 AM »
With 5 kids I would advise the dad to keep working part time until at least three kids have finished college and are working also.
Except if you have a very large stash, 5 kids just add to much uncertainty into the mix (medical costs, education costs ...).

Part time he could start doing do in about 3 years (depending on new house costs). He will have a much better work life balance by working part time, the stash can continu to grow and his skills stay relevant in the job market so if something unexpected happened he could always work more hours and preserve or limit the impact on his stash.
Once three kids are working the uncertainty drops a lot + the stash will be bigger by then. So full time for another three years and then part time for 7 years. Not bad...

Kimera757

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2017, 11:42:33 AM »
I've read a few of these before and I actually agree. The whole tale probably isn't being told (eg how many bedrooms does their current house have).

You don't have to have a bedroom per kid, just one for boys and one for girls, but in Canada people believe that each kid needs a room, at least once the kids reach puberty. The kids are pretty young right now, but obviously they're growing. The parents probably want a house large enough for all the kids (so that's a six bedroom house), which is really cheap if it's only $400,000. Manitoba isn't part of the over-the-top housing bubble. (Where I live that price gives you a shack or a condo with two bedrooms.) Buying a bigger house might not be completely crazy if they are willing to downgrade once the kids move out. Of course that means more money going into housing than they're spending right now.

They're in a different province than I'm in, but I believe if the kids are living with their parents when they go to college, they need to submit their tax information and their parents' tax information in order to get a student loan. If their parents have income in excess of $100,000 (which they do) it might be difficult for their kids to get student loans. This means the parents have little choice but to help their kids pay their way through school. While the college students could get part-time and summer jobs, it's rarely enough, at least if they demonstrate typical non-Mustachian discipline. (I don't know how the colleges handle a family with three or so kids in college simultaneously. I hope they allow for higher income in that circumstance.) When the kids reach that age, their parents won't be getting child benefits for them anymore, it doesn't matter if the kids are living with their parents or on campus. Of course the parents are helping their kids go to school, by funding their RESPs... but that's interfering with their goal of early retirement. Buying a larger house is also, sadly, interfering with their goal of early retirement.

If this was a typically-sized family of four, I'd say this couple was doing very well and could retire early. They're saving a high percentage of their paycheque, and they've already paid off their mortgage, when Canadians older than them have sometimes just gotten out of their apartment building and are just now buying houses. But they have five kids, and it will be a long time before they're grown.

Quote
There is another way. If Rudy works to age 60 and he and Martha add, as they do now, $4,262 a month to registered and non-registered savings other than RESPs totaling $344,300 and obtain a 3 per cent annual return after inflation, they would have $822,000 in capital. That sum, still generating a 3 per cent return after inflation, would produce $34,525 for 40 years to Martha’s age 95.

I'd like to point out that at age 63 for Rudy and 58 for Martha, their youngest child would have reached age 18 and would then just start going to school. The parents' expenses would drop, since they should have already funded their kids education by that point. At that point it depends on whether the kids have moved out or not yet. If the kids have moved out they can downgrade their house size immediately, and use that tax-free capital gain for a late last-minute retirement contribution. On the other hand, if the kids stay with them, the parents might think about charging them rent.

Is $822,000 enough, given the growth figures given? 3% + inflation is about 5% per year, which is reasonable, although somewhat low. (A typical return is something like 7% before inflation.) Note that there's no reference to private pensions. They don't have a defined contribution pension plan, group RRSP, or 401k equivalent. They just have OAS and CPP (equivalent to Social Security) leaving their retirements almost completely in their hands.

The family has about $350,000 in assets that could be used to pay for a new house (not counting the van or RESPs), but almost all of that is their retirement fund. They would either need to keep working until they've saved enough cash to pay for the difference in the house price (plus real estate fees, land transfer taxes, etc etc) or get another mortgage.

Also, a note about the van. Yes you can maintain a van past fourteen years, but it's going to take time and effort, and a little money too. Many Mustachians have the skill and time to do this, but probably not this family. If I had five kids I would always feel like I don't have enough time to do anything. They might want to buy a "new" van. ("New" meaning a lightly used van, bought all in cash, to try to keep money spent at a minimum. Also newer vehicles tend to be more fuel-efficient. A van that old might be a gas guzzler.)

somebody8198

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2017, 10:10:39 PM »

I'm not sure we would agree with this analysis.

http://www.financialpost.com/m/wp/personal-finance/family-finance/blog.html?b=business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/family-finance/dads-retirement-at-age-42-a-large-risk-for-family-with-five-children-mom-working-part-time

Brief, a family who save 1/2 their income & want to retire in their 40's are told they must wait until 60.

I think it is probably doable in 5 years if they don't get a bigger house.

What do you think?

This is probably a lot more do-able in Canada, where healthcare is provided from taxes. I would be really anxious about being in my early 40s and uninsured in the U.S., especially given the exponentially rising cost of medicine. Personally, I've given up on early retirement mainly because I can't handle the risk. I'll likely scale down my career, however, when I'm around that age.

talltexan

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2017, 09:50:20 AM »
If you think about realtor's fees, selling a $250,000 house (to move up) and then a $550,000 house (to downsize) will basically be $50,000, which is more than 1 year's expenses for this family.

MgoSam

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2017, 10:02:22 AM »
If you think about realtor's fees, selling a $250,000 house (to move up) and then a $550,000 house (to downsize) will basically be $50,000, which is more than 1 year's expenses for this family.

Funny you should mention that. I know a couple that had this situation and when they realized how much selling it would cost, they decided to just rent it out. This was about 3 years ago and since then have loved being landlords and now own a second rental property and are looking for a third. Those jerks still haven't sent me a Thank You card as I was the one that pushed them to try renting it for a year (at first their concern was that they wouldn't get a good price on their house because of the timing but didn't want to pay a mortgage on an empty house).

fattest_foot

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2017, 03:53:56 PM »
Based on this statement (which I'm going to make assumptions about, since it appears to have been missed by the editor), I don't think I would listen to a single word from that advisor.

"Family Finance asked Guil Perreault, head of G. Perreault Financial Inc. in Winnipeg, to work with Rudy and Martha. “Doubtful,” is his evaluation of the couples’ early retirement plans and a simple “No” is his view of buying a $400,000 home. Even though they are currently spending $3,681 a month and banking an astonishing $4,541 a month, more than half of take-home income, they can’t have a either a bigger house and early retirement and certainly not both."

I'm assuming he's saying they can't afford a $400k house or early retirement, and certainly not both. Why couldn't they afford a $400k house though? They've got $250k equity in their current home; so he's saying they can't afford a $150k mortgage?

I dunno, it's just hard to take an article like that seriously when there are so many questions due to poor grammar in the writing. It's not worth wasting anyone's time reading it when they can't proofread 11 paragraphs.

Kimera757

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2017, 06:41:43 PM »
Unfortunately the adviser did not cover what the typical mortgage cost would be per month (plus other expenses, such as land transfer taxes, etc). I'm assuming they would cover the majority of their new mortgage with the equity from the old house, and would not liquidate any assets for purchasing purposes. (Most of their assets are their retirement fund, which would defeat the purpose of retiring early.)_

The family wants to retire in 5 years. At over $150,000 extra, that's $2500 per month assuming 0% interest (not possible) if the family wants to pay off their entire mortgage by the time they retire. They currently have only $350,000 or so of invested assets, which isn't enough to retire on yet. Furthermore they'd have to cut their investment contribution rate by more than half... and wouldn't be able to buy a newer seven-seat van for their large family.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 06:44:02 PM by Kimera757 »

FrugalFan

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2017, 07:21:58 PM »
"There is another way. If Rudy works to age 60 and he and Martha add, as they do now, $4,262 a month to registered and non-registered savings other than RESPs totaling $344,300 and obtain a 3 per cent annual return after inflation, they would have $822,000 in capital."

Some serious math issues here. I get 2.4 million with a compound interest calculator for 374k plus 51k a year for 23 years (age 37 to 60 for "Rudy") at 3% interest. I think they'd be in decent shape after about 10 years, but 5 kids does add to the risk in my opinion.

FrugalFan

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2017, 07:24:04 PM »
...

Didn't know you had a blog. Off to check it out!

RichMoose

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Re: Abandon all hope & retire at 60.
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2017, 09:08:41 PM »
...

Didn't know you had a blog. Off to check it out!

I've been learning Wordpress over the last few months and designed the site in the early winter. Started posting articles in January! I'm trying to mix financial strategies and ideas with entertaining/humourous narrative to make the articles easier to read and more appealing to a younger, not as financially literate audience.

Let me know what you think and if you like it, please share with any younger people in your lifd as I'm trying go grow traffic. I'm currently averaging about 10 unique users per day.