Author Topic: Long term care insurance  (Read 17965 times)

Roadrunner53

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2019, 02:22:21 PM »
I have this book. Mine is probably 6 years old and it seems to be updated each year. It is an excellent guide on how you can spend down your assets for Medicaid purposes,  by doing things like putting a new roof on your home, buying a new car, remodeling bathrooms with handicap type showers and tubs. Put in flooring, carpeting, painting. The idea is to spend it on things to improve the house by spending money on it. Medicaid will not throw out the non sick spouse or put a lien on half of the house. I do believe the book even suggests you buy a more expensive house too. The author of the book is an expert on elder law. I would suggest if you buy this book that you make sure you buy the most up to date version of it. Laws change from year to year. Plus, see and elder attorney to make sure you are doing the right thing.

https://www.amazon.com/Protect-Familys-Assets-Devastating-Nursing/dp/1941123058/ref=asc_df_1941123058/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid={creative}&hvpos={adposition}&hvnetw=o&hvrand={random}&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl={devicemodel}&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583726540849356&psc=1

Laura33 is right. No one knows if they will end up in a nursing home. I never want to go after being with my Mom day after day. She was in a room with a room mate and it was horrible not to have any privacy. The place was overly warm but by law they have to keep it at a certain temperature. I you don't like it too bad. There was no ac in the room to turn on. Even young people can end up in one of these horror hotels. Never say never. It is the saddest thing to see a loved one in there and nothing you can do. Then even worse knowing that the nursing home will get every penny this hard working person ever earned for their care. Even as expensive as the place my Mom was in, it was not like the Marriott. They were always short handed, the food was just okay, rooms were small and two persons per room. Parking was terrible. UGH, I don't even want to think about it.

rab-bit

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2019, 02:30:31 PM »
This subject matter is old but still valid.

I bought LTC many years ago thru my employer for me and spouse. It was cheap at the time and I was making excellent money and found it affordable. I swear when they gave the presentation that they said the cost would never go up. That sounds strange but I have had the policies for about 20 years and it has never gone up till last year. This year it went up again and went up 23.70%. The letter says they were granted permission thru the State to increase costs. They offered choices like not paying any more premiums and there is a small amount we can draw on if we go to a nursing home.

I had the same experience, purchased policies for me and DW through my employer and then the insurance company got approval to raise the premiums by 20% per year for the next 3 years. I dropped those policies and purchased new policies from a large, A++ rated (AM Best) company with very competitive premiums. As far as I can tell, this company has never raised their LTC premiums in any state. Of course, there's no guarantee that they would not do so in the future, but I'm comfortable that we made the best choice we could make.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2019, 03:08:27 PM »
This subject matter is old but still valid.

I bought LTC many years ago thru my employer for me and spouse. It was cheap at the time and I was making excellent money and found it affordable. I swear when they gave the presentation that they said the cost would never go up. That sounds strange but I have had the policies for about 20 years and it has never gone up till last year. This year it went up again and went up 23.70%. The letter says they were granted permission thru the State to increase costs. They offered choices like not paying any more premiums and there is a small amount we can draw on if we go to a nursing home.

I had the same experience, purchased policies for me and DW through my employer and then the insurance company got approval to raise the premiums by 20% per year for the next 3 years. I dropped those policies and purchased new policies from a large, A++ rated (AM Best) company with very competitive premiums. As far as I can tell, this company has never raised their LTC premiums in any state. Of course, there's no guarantee that they would not do so in the future, but I'm comfortable that we made the best choice we could make.

Our premiums are still low(ish) so I guess I can't complain but double digit increases are a bit excessive! Rab-bit, how much does your policy pay per day if you don't mind me asking? By looking at the costs per state in the link above, it makes me want to move to a lower cost state with lower nursing home costs. My aunt was in a nursing home in Tennessee and the cost was $6,000 a month and it looked very much like where my Mom was but for $12,000 a month!

mm1970

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2019, 10:54:36 AM »
Yes, LTC is something I will consider as I get older, as dementia runs in my family.  I would love to see what the policy coverage is for $200/mo, that sounds mad cheap to me!  I tried to get my Mom into a LTC policy once Dad passed away, but the cost was well over $1K/mo, and she had visions of us locking her up and throwing away the key, so she balked.

Fast forward not many years later, and my Mom lives in assisted living.  She was living in one of the most expensive areas of NY, so I priced her care at $20K/mo in some places!  Family issues and cheaper costs enabled us to move her to TX instead, where I originally had her in a very nice assisted living facility for "only" $4,500/mo.  As she continued to decline in health, I moved her to a much smaller facility with better care and a cheaper price of $3K/mo.  This doesn't include medical, prescriptions, activities, etc.  She's been under hospice care for years, she's been in crisis care twice already (this is when they are pretty sure you are going to pass away w/in days), she has seizures every other month along w/a few strokes sprinkled in for good measure, and she still carries on.  Tough little cookie.  ;)

Her care is approaching the $200K mark at this point.  Good thing my parents were frugal savers, but I'm sure they didn't want their hard-earned cash to go to this service. Had they planned appropriately w/a LTC Policy and/or estate planning, the financial picture would be very different.

The way I see it, it's my parents money and it should be spent to take care of their needs first.  If there's anything left, great, but I'm not counting on that.

Oh, and my mom is only 74, so she could live like this for many more years.  Early-onset, at least 12 years that we know of.
Honestly, that's how it should be.  Spend it on their care.

I can't remember exactly, but I'm fairly confident that my spouse's grandmother was in LTC with severe memory loss for about 20 years.  I think she died at around age 97.  Maybe 95. 

Hunny156

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2019, 12:56:35 PM »
Yes, LTC is something I will consider as I get older, as dementia runs in my family.  I would love to see what the policy coverage is for $200/mo, that sounds mad cheap to me!  I tried to get my Mom into a LTC policy once Dad passed away, but the cost was well over $1K/mo, and she had visions of us locking her up and throwing away the key, so she balked.

Fast forward not many years later, and my Mom lives in assisted living.  She was living in one of the most expensive areas of NY, so I priced her care at $20K/mo in some places!  Family issues and cheaper costs enabled us to move her to TX instead, where I originally had her in a very nice assisted living facility for "only" $4,500/mo.  As she continued to decline in health, I moved her to a much smaller facility with better care and a cheaper price of $3K/mo.  This doesn't include medical, prescriptions, activities, etc.  She's been under hospice care for years, she's been in crisis care twice already (this is when they are pretty sure you are going to pass away w/in days), she has seizures every other month along w/a few strokes sprinkled in for good measure, and she still carries on.  Tough little cookie.  ;)

Her care is approaching the $200K mark at this point.  Good thing my parents were frugal savers, but I'm sure they didn't want their hard-earned cash to go to this service. Had they planned appropriately w/a LTC Policy and/or estate planning, the financial picture would be very different.

The way I see it, it's my parents money and it should be spent to take care of their needs first.  If there's anything left, great, but I'm not counting on that.

Oh, and my mom is only 74, so she could live like this for many more years.  Early-onset, at least 12 years that we know of.
Honestly, that's how it should be.  Spend it on their care.

I can't remember exactly, but I'm fairly confident that my spouse's grandmother was in LTC with severe memory loss for about 20 years.  I think she died at around age 97.  Maybe 95.

mm1970, seeing this quote of mine from 6 years ago, WOW.  Mom's still alive, but the lack of proper planning resulted in some horrific consequences.  I've alluded to this on some other threads, and I hope to wrap things up later this year so I can provide an excellent case study for everyone, but the short story is that my sibling blew through all of the liquid assets and then some, dumped mom in a Medicaid "Horror Hotel", and refused to tell anyone where Mom was.  I filed a lawsuit, and the response was a bankruptcy court filing, putting an automatic stay on my case.  The battle moved to bankruptcy court, where I've incurred huge legal fees, fighting for Mom's interest in the family home, which can't be sold until she passes, except when a bankruptcy court decides otherwise.

I've probably shared too much already, but once the BK case is settled, then I get the pleasure of figuring out how to un-Medicaid Mom, get her SSA back, and move her back to the smaller facility.  Assuming she survives till that time - I was able to eventually find her, and there is already significant decline.

patchyfacialhair

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2019, 03:47:50 PM »
Yes, LTC is something I will consider as I get older, as dementia runs in my family.  I would love to see what the policy coverage is for $200/mo, that sounds mad cheap to me!  I tried to get my Mom into a LTC policy once Dad passed away, but the cost was well over $1K/mo, and she had visions of us locking her up and throwing away the key, so she balked.

Fast forward not many years later, and my Mom lives in assisted living.  She was living in one of the most expensive areas of NY, so I priced her care at $20K/mo in some places!  Family issues and cheaper costs enabled us to move her to TX instead, where I originally had her in a very nice assisted living facility for "only" $4,500/mo.  As she continued to decline in health, I moved her to a much smaller facility with better care and a cheaper price of $3K/mo.  This doesn't include medical, prescriptions, activities, etc.  She's been under hospice care for years, she's been in crisis care twice already (this is when they are pretty sure you are going to pass away w/in days), she has seizures every other month along w/a few strokes sprinkled in for good measure, and she still carries on.  Tough little cookie.  ;)

Her care is approaching the $200K mark at this point.  Good thing my parents were frugal savers, but I'm sure they didn't want their hard-earned cash to go to this service. Had they planned appropriately w/a LTC Policy and/or estate planning, the financial picture would be very different.

The way I see it, it's my parents money and it should be spent to take care of their needs first.  If there's anything left, great, but I'm not counting on that.

Oh, and my mom is only 74, so she could live like this for many more years.  Early-onset, at least 12 years that we know of.
Honestly, that's how it should be.  Spend it on their care.

I can't remember exactly, but I'm fairly confident that my spouse's grandmother was in LTC with severe memory loss for about 20 years.  I think she died at around age 97.  Maybe 95.

mm1970, seeing this quote of mine from 6 years ago, WOW.  Mom's still alive, but the lack of proper planning resulted in some horrific consequences.  I've alluded to this on some other threads, and I hope to wrap things up later this year so I can provide an excellent case study for everyone, but the short story is that my sibling blew through all of the liquid assets and then some, dumped mom in a Medicaid "Horror Hotel", and refused to tell anyone where Mom was.  I filed a lawsuit, and the response was a bankruptcy court filing, putting an automatic stay on my case.  The battle moved to bankruptcy court, where I've incurred huge legal fees, fighting for Mom's interest in the family home, which can't be sold until she passes, except when a bankruptcy court decides otherwise.

I've probably shared too much already, but once the BK case is settled, then I get the pleasure of figuring out how to un-Medicaid Mom, get her SSA back, and move her back to the smaller facility.  Assuming she survives till that time - I was able to eventually find her, and there is already significant decline.

Your sibling is an objectively horrible person.

Just Joe

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2019, 10:55:46 AM »
Maybe we should pass the hat to send the sibling on a "vacation" to a far away place. Don't mention that the ticket is one way. Let 'em walk home. Perhaps would lead to lots of time to think about life and such. 

mm1970

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2019, 01:26:17 PM »
Quote
mm1970, seeing this quote of mine from 6 years ago, WOW.  Mom's still alive, but the lack of proper planning resulted in some horrific consequences.  I've alluded to this on some other threads, and I hope to wrap things up later this year so I can provide an excellent case study for everyone, but the short story is that my sibling blew through all of the liquid assets and then some, dumped mom in a Medicaid "Horror Hotel", and refused to tell anyone where Mom was.  I filed a lawsuit, and the response was a bankruptcy court filing, putting an automatic stay on my case.  The battle moved to bankruptcy court, where I've incurred huge legal fees, fighting for Mom's interest in the family home, which can't be sold until she passes, except when a bankruptcy court decides otherwise.

I've probably shared too much already, but once the BK case is settled, then I get the pleasure of figuring out how to un-Medicaid Mom, get her SSA back, and move her back to the smaller facility.  Assuming she survives till that time - I was able to eventually find her, and there is already significant decline.

This makes me so sad.  I wish you the best of luck.

MountainFlower

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2019, 02:07:04 PM »
My mom and dad bought LTC insurance years ago and it is paying back big time right now.  After brain surgery, she ended up with delirium and dementia.  We have her at her home with full-time care at about $10K/month.  Her policy is paying that with up to $360K.  This was through John Hancock insurance and we are in Colorado. 

Her estate attorney alluded to the fact that many companies never pay, so check carefully before purchasing. 

For a while she was in assisted living at about $7500 month.  We were joking that she was in assisted living and MAKING money because of her LTC policy and her social security and pension checks still coming.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2019, 03:07:06 PM »
Some of you have said you would look into buying LTC insurance when you are older. I am no expert but I bought mine when I was younger and it was and still is pretty cheap. I know with the double digit increases the insurance will probably be unaffordable some day. Maybe if interested in this type of insurance you might be able to lock in at a cheaper rate while younger. This is one insurance that I hope we never use. Nursing homes are the pits, even the 'good' ones. BLEH!

joleran

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2019, 08:36:58 PM »
Some of you have said you would look into buying LTC insurance when you are older. I am no expert but I bought mine when I was younger and it was and still is pretty cheap. I know with the double digit increases the insurance will probably be unaffordable some day. Maybe if interested in this type of insurance you might be able to lock in at a cheaper rate while younger. This is one insurance that I hope we never use. Nursing homes are the pits, even the 'good' ones. BLEH!

I wonder about medical tourism for long term care... many places have fast track citizenship paths if you have significant assets.

rab-bit

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2019, 03:16:37 AM »
This subject matter is old but still valid.

I bought LTC many years ago thru my employer for me and spouse. It was cheap at the time and I was making excellent money and found it affordable. I swear when they gave the presentation that they said the cost would never go up. That sounds strange but I have had the policies for about 20 years and it has never gone up till last year. This year it went up again and went up 23.70%. The letter says they were granted permission thru the State to increase costs. They offered choices like not paying any more premiums and there is a small amount we can draw on if we go to a nursing home.

I had the same experience, purchased policies for me and DW through my employer and then the insurance company got approval to raise the premiums by 20% per year for the next 3 years. I dropped those policies and purchased new policies from a large, A++ rated (AM Best) company with very competitive premiums. As far as I can tell, this company has never raised their LTC premiums in any state. Of course, there's no guarantee that they would not do so in the future, but I'm comfortable that we made the best choice we could make.

Our premiums are still low(ish) so I guess I can't complain but double digit increases are a bit excessive! Rab-bit, how much does your policy pay per day if you don't mind me asking? By looking at the costs per state in the link above, it makes me want to move to a lower cost state with lower nursing home costs. My aunt was in a nursing home in Tennessee and the cost was $6,000 a month and it looked very much like where my Mom was but for $12,000 a month!

Sorry @Roadrunner53, I just saw this. Our policies would cover around 40% of the daily cost of a nursing home in our area for 2 years, and includes a 3% inflation rider. This seemed like a reasonable trade-off against premium cost for us. We figured that the remaining nursing home costs could be paid through our retirement income streams, though it would be tight if both of us were still living or if we needed nursing home care for more than 2 years. Basically, we purchased policies that would hopefully prevent a catastrophic financial failure in most scenarios, but we didn't want to pay for policies beyond that.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 03:37:40 AM by rab-bit »

momcpa

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2019, 07:41:12 PM »
roadrunner.........sounds just like our situation.  We purchased years ago and the premium never changed.  Just this week I received a notice that the premium is going up 25%.  We have a couple options:  go with the increase to keep the same amount of coverage.  Or go with a lesser premium for less coverage.  Or opt out if we choose to. 
I haven't read the documents completely yet, but I think we will probably go with the increased premium for this year.  It's still 'kinda' reasonable in my mind.  Just hope they don't pull the same increase in the next years of the policy.

rab-bit

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2019, 03:14:06 AM »
roadrunner.........sounds just like our situation.  We purchased years ago and the premium never changed.  Just this week I received a notice that the premium is going up 25%.  We have a couple options:  go with the increase to keep the same amount of coverage.  Or go with a lesser premium for less coverage.  Or opt out if we choose to. 
I haven't read the documents completely yet, but I think we will probably go with the increased premium for this year.  It's still 'kinda' reasonable in my mind.  Just hope they don't pull the same increase in the next years of the policy.

@momcpa, I believe that these companies need to get approval to raise their premiums, so you can check with your state's insurance commission. In our case the insurance company applied and was approved for 3 consecutive annual 20% increases.

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2019, 11:41:50 AM »
@Roadrunner53, you might be onto a good idea with a move to a lower-cost state.  My mom's Alzheimer facility is very good but almost $7300/month now that her cognition has declined further and she requires more attention.  As someone else mentioned upthread, unlike nursing homes the private LTC facilities will not keep you at Medicaid rates.  I'd been misled by an elder-care attorney into believing that as long as Mom's care was paid for a certain number of years, they'd keep her on if she fully depleted her assets.  I asked about it when facility shopping, and got the same answer from all of them: once you're out of money, you're out of their facility.

I'm 53 now and still on the fence about buying LTC insurance. No children, so that's a factor.  Also, no history of long nursing-home stays in my family, but Mom and one uncle have/had Alzheimer's.  It's a hard call.

Melisande

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2019, 07:53:55 PM »

That sounds strange but I have had the policies for about 20 years and it has never gone up till last year. This year it went up again and went up 23.70%. The letter says they were granted permission thru the State to increase costs.




After an inordinate amount of research some years ago, I decided that we shouldn’t invest in LTC insurance and this was one of the deal breakers. They couldn’t tell us how much the premiums were going to be in the future. There were essentially way too many unknown variables to make any kind of reasonable cost/benefit calculations.

Fishingmn

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2019, 07:22:22 AM »
I believe those without many assets should just rely on Medicaid and those with lots of assets ($2M+?) should self insure but those in the middle may want to consider it.

Problem is that many LTC insurers figured out they were losing on their policies and either aren't writing or putting more restrictions on them.

Really glad my parents bought them. Paid $1,500/year starting at around age 55. 4 years ago my mother went into a nursing home. The policy will likely pay out the maximum of $436k in a few years as my mom is quite healthy.

iris lily

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2019, 08:09:18 AM »
Here is my plan for LTC:
I have Alzheimer’s in my family, it is pretty rampant. Probably we could fund respite care, in-home care in limited times and etc. through our normal income and drawdown plan.

But once full-time care in a nursing home is necessary my plan has all of my income of  $56,000 a year (once I turn on all the spigots) going toward nursing home costs. I figure by then nursing homes will be a cool hundred thousand dollars a year, so DH will have to take $45,000 a year from our assets. It is unlikely I would last more than 7 years. We have money for that.

Meanwhile, DH has to live on one income stream, social security.  We are deliberately not turning on his stream until late because it is likely he will live longer than me and will need that income stream. He could, theoretically, live on that in the house we bought in a small town in Missouri Because he is very frugal and knows how to live simply. But we have a lot of assets even after my 7 years in the nursing home, so he could draw down and be quite comfortable.

 And if he requires nursing home care at that point it doesn’t matter because he can spend all assets and then the taxpayers take over with Medicaid.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 08:11:39 AM by iris lily »

dude

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2019, 09:21:00 AM »
I have the Fed employees' LTC. Bought in when I was 46 (8 years ago). Premiums were reasonable and benefits were good. And then the original contract expired and they jacked rates up. So I dropped to a lower benefit level at around the same price I was paying previously for more generous benefits. It looks like this currently:

Premium: $60.11/mo.
DBA: $132.23
Waiting period: 90 days
Inflation option: ACI 3.55%
Benefit period: 1,095 days
Max Lifetime Benefit: $144,792

I've thought it over many times, and for now it still looks like a reasonable option. But there's no telling what happens to premiums after the current contract expires (I believe it's every 5 years).

Also, does anybody know what happens if an insurer decides to withdraw from the LTC market? What happens to all the premiums you've paid? Do they vanish into thin air, or would they be refunded?


Nords

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2019, 10:15:43 AM »
It's worth reminding yourself that a family history of Alzheimer's (or other types of dementia) is not your destiny.

I write this as a guy whose father died of Alzheimer's 15 years after his father died of Alzheimer's.

Genetics loads your gun, but lifestyle has a big hand in squeezing the trigger.  There are genes which kickstart early-onset Alzheimer's as early as one's 40s (especially in a particular South American village), and there are genes which kick in for late-onset Alzheimer's (typically mid 70s).  However there's also a gene which genealogists know is protective against Alzheimer's, although geneticists just can't pinpoint it on the genome yet. 

There are plenty of elders whose (autopsied) brains were full of the pathology associated with Alzheimer's... yet the elders did not actually have Alzheimer's before they died.  Either something else killed them first (cardiac, cancer) or something in their genome kept Alzheimer's from kicking in.  Or maybe it was just high-quality whiskey.

You could buy LTC insurance if it makes you (and your family) sleep better at night, but this is also the opportunity of a lifetime (literally) to practice those Mustachian diet & exercise habits.  Frankly I'd rather pin my hopes on lifestyle rather than in a life-insurance company.

Also, does anybody know what happens if an insurer decides to withdraw from the LTC market? What happens to all the premiums you've paid? Do they vanish into thin air, or would they be refunded?
The companies just stop issuing new policies, but they've contracted with you to provide your insurance. 

Rate increases can happen where permitted by the policy and by your state's laws.  You can cancel the policy if you want to, but insurers can only modify it with the permission of your state's insurance commissioner.  Of course they can also deny coverage (that happened to my father) but you can pursue an appeals process.  You essentially show the insurer that it's cheaper to approve the claim than deny it.

Once an insurer withdraws from the market they might also be free to sell the policy to some other insurer, but the original terms (and approved premiums) remain in the contract.  My father's LTC policy was sold to two different companies before it ended up with John Hancock (through mergers & acquisitions).

Roadrunner53

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2019, 10:55:59 AM »
Just looked at my policy. Have had it for 25 years! Bought it from a previous employer and was able to keep it when company closed down.

Premium: $139.43/every 3 mo.
DBA: $210.00
Waiting period: 90 days
Max Lifetime Benefit: $420,000

Husband is 1 1/2 years older and his policy is $148.39 every 3 mo.

This is really not good coverage considering back in 2013 my Mom was in a nursing home in CT and it was $12,000 a month. The benefit we have would only cover about $6,500. I am sure the cost of nursing homes has gone up to maybe $14,000 a month. So that leaves $7,500 a month we will have to pay! Slow financial death. It might be better to have no LTC, spend down the assets and Medicaid will take over. But I suppose you could spend down assets anyway while the spouse that is sick is in the nursing home.

Plus, the 90 day waiting period at $14,00 a month would be $42,000 right from the get go! The $420,000 benefit would last about 5 years.

Scary stuff...

MountainFlower

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2019, 12:58:59 PM »
@Roadrunner53, you might be onto a good idea with a move to a lower-cost state.  My mom's Alzheimer facility is very good but almost $7300/month now that her cognition has declined further and she requires more attention.  As someone else mentioned upthread, unlike nursing homes the private LTC facilities will not keep you at Medicaid rates.  I'd been misled by an elder-care attorney into believing that as long as Mom's care was paid for a certain number of years, they'd keep her on if she fully depleted her assets.  I asked about it when facility shopping, and got the same answer from all of them: once you're out of money, you're out of their facility.



I personally think that the facilities were BSing you on this.  Our attorney for my mom said that it's not always 100% clear how that will work and that the rules can change, but that typically they can't kick you out if you've been a cash paying customer for a certain amount of time. 

The facilities don't want to hear the "M" word at all, so of course they told you that.  My Mother in law was in a $10K/month facility in Ohio and when the money ran out, they legally could not kick her out and she stayed until she died on Medicaid.  BTW, $7300/month seems like a great price compared to what we found around the Denver area.  As I mentioned above, my mom's John Hancock policy is paying $264/day for her full-time care staff at home.  We plan to look into Long Term care and I will probably go with John Hancock knowing that they actually have paid (Colorado). 


Roadrunner53

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2019, 01:42:19 PM »
CT's average price is $412 per day. It is the highest cost in the nation other than Alaska at $800 a day.

https://www.payingforseniorcare.com/longtermcare/paying-for-nursing-homes.html

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2019, 02:50:22 PM »
It's worth reminding yourself that a family history of Alzheimer's (or other types of dementia) is not your destiny.

I write this as a guy whose father died of Alzheimer's 15 years after his father died of Alzheimer's.

Genetics loads your gun, but lifestyle has a big hand in squeezing the trigger.  There are genes which kickstart early-onset Alzheimer's as early as one's 40s (especially in a particular South American village), and there are genes which kick in for late-onset Alzheimer's (typically mid 70s).  However there's also a gene which genealogists know is protective against Alzheimer's, although geneticists just can't pinpoint it on the genome yet. 

There are plenty of elders whose (autopsied) brains were full of the pathology associated with Alzheimer's... yet the elders did not actually have Alzheimer's before they died.  Either something else killed them first (cardiac, cancer) or something in their genome kept Alzheimer's from kicking in.  Or maybe it was just high-quality whiskey.

You could buy LTC insurance if it makes you (and your family) sleep better at night, but this is also the opportunity of a lifetime (literally) to practice those Mustachian diet & exercise habits.  Frankly I'd rather pin my hopes on lifestyle rather than in a life-insurance company.

Also, does anybody know what happens if an insurer decides to withdraw from the LTC market? What happens to all the premiums you've paid? Do they vanish into thin air, or would they be refunded?
The companies just stop issuing new policies, but they've contracted with you to provide your insurance. 

Rate increases can happen where permitted by the policy and by your state's laws.  You can cancel the policy if you want to, but insurers can only modify it with the permission of your state's insurance commissioner.  Of course they can also deny coverage (that happened to my father) but you can pursue an appeals process.  You essentially show the insurer that it's cheaper to approve the claim than deny it.

Once an insurer withdraws from the market they might also be free to sell the policy to some other insurer, but the original terms (and approved premiums) remain in the contract.  My father's LTC policy was sold to two different companies before it ended up with John Hancock (through mergers & acquisitions).

Just because an insurance company has a contract with you to provide a specific kind of coverage doesn't mean they will actually provide it if it's inconvenient to themselves. They don't have to actually hold up their end of the deal.

iris lily

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2019, 03:39:08 PM »
@Roadrunner53, you might be onto a good idea with a move to a lower-cost state.  My mom's Alzheimer facility is very good but almost $7300/month now that her cognition has declined further and she requires more attention.  As someone else mentioned upthread, unlike nursing homes the private LTC facilities will not keep you at Medicaid rates.  I'd been misled by an elder-care attorney into believing that as long as Mom's care was paid for a certain number of years, they'd keep her on if she fully depleted her assets.  I asked about it when facility shopping, and got the same answer from all of them: once you're out of money, you're out of their facility.



I personally think that the facilities were BSing you on this.  Our attorney for my mom said that it's not always 100% clear how that will work and that the rules can change, but that typically they can't kick you out if you've been a cash paying customer for a certain amount of time. 

The facilities don't want to hear the "M" word at all, so of course they told you that.  My Mother in law was in a $10K/month facility in Ohio and when the money ran out, they legally could not kick her out and she stayed until she died on Medicaid.  BTW, $7300/month seems like a great price compared to what we found around the Denver area.  As I mentioned above, my mom's John Hancock policy is paying $264/day for her full-time care staff at home.  We plan to look into Long Term care and I will probably go with John Hancock knowing that they actually have paid (Colorado).
The whole bizness about when the nursing home can kick out former cash customers is very interesting. I remember with my mom the nursing home administrator says something out like “oh we would never kick  her out after she’s been here that long” but I did not know there was legislation controlling that. Anyway—

For my mother, it all worked out fine she was private pay until the end of her life at the nursing home. She had a nice sum of money to leave us two kids, not crazy amounts,  but something like $60,000 each. She also Was assigned a private room at the end of her life and I don’t think she was charged for it. Because the nursing home had an open room they respected her downhill slide and hospice care and dying event.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 03:40:48 PM by iris lily »

SpeedReader

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2019, 09:22:05 AM »
Thanks everyone!  I guess I'll have to look into the WA state laws on that.

iris lily

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2019, 02:15:14 PM »
@Roadrunner53, you might be onto a good idea with a move to a lower-cost state.  My mom's Alzheimer facility is very good but almost $7300/month now that her cognition has declined further and she requires more attention.  As someone else mentioned upthread, unlike nursing homes the private LTC facilities will not keep you at Medicaid rates.  I'd been misled by an elder-care attorney into believing that as long as Mom's care was paid for a certain number of years, they'd keep her on if she fully depleted her assets.  I asked about it when facility shopping, and got the same answer from all of them: once you're out of money, you're out of their facility.

I'm 53 now and still on the fence about buying LTC insurance. No children, so that's a factor.  Also, no history of long nursing-home stays in my family, but Mom and one uncle have/had Alzheimer's.  It's a hard call.
My father in law died a few months ago in small town Iowa nursing home. His bill was $7,000 each month, so your amount does not seem bad for state of Washington

weirdlair

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2019, 03:30:13 PM »
It was many years ago, so the details are fuzzy, but at work we were offered LTC insurance. It didn't kick in until you'd been in the nursing home for a year, and the benefits only paid out for three years. We decided to self-insure.

CarolinaGirl

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2019, 04:52:40 PM »
My parents bought LTC over a decade ago and paid it happily thinking it would be a great thing to have ‘just in case’. It was hundreds of dollars a month for both of them.  My Dad developed a brain tumor and after treatment was no longer able to walk or move himself around in almost any way.  I don’t have all the details to share but the policy had so many hidden restrictions and ah-hah items that it was really of almost no benefit at all in paying for the facility or for thenin-home care he received.   

Seeing them go through this just last year as he died from the tumor made me REALLY question whether I would get a policy for myself in the future.  Moral of the story: DO YOUR RESEARCH on the policy FULLY  before purchasing it. 

marion10

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Re: Long term care insurance
« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2019, 09:44:33 PM »
The Federal Long Term care policies can be renegotiated every 7 years. We bought ours when we were 40 and picked a level premium with inflation protection. Still not sure if we did the right thing- the premiums keep going up- but it seems to be a good policy- will cover home health care and even modifications to the home. One of my coworkers’s husband feel off the roof and was severely injured and they had to pay a lot to modify the house for him.
Most nursing homes ( not assisted living) will not turn you out when you don’t have money- you start getting Medicaid and you move to a “ Medicaid “ bed. The really good homes do not take people straight from Medicaid- their slots go to people already in the facility.