Author Topic: Life "forces you into it".  (Read 34827 times)

MMMaybe

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2015, 11:04:47 PM »
With regards to people getting offended...

I've had some people get mad with me over the use of "lady" as opposed to woman. Now I am happy to consider myself a lady because to me, it suggests that I have good manners :) I am a woman who is also a lady...

OP, rest assured, someone somewhere will get their nose out of joint no matter what you do. I would say though that to me (while I don't particularly care) "girl" suggests a younger person. It does work in certain circumstances like "going out with the girls" but maybe pack it away for now.

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2015, 01:10:23 AM »
I'm not taking one side or the other here, but I'm just going to briefly comment that "X doesn't offend me, therefore it is not offensive" is not a coherent argument. Neither is "I've never heard of anyone being offended by X, therefore it is not offensive."

How about "this term offends me, so it must be an insult to everyone?" Or "I've heard some people take this term as an insult, so I'm gonna hammer everyone who uses it?" I'm not sure any of this is productive, though certain people do get a kick out of venting their righteous anger.  Or counter venting.  Or counter counter venting...

Cressida

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2015, 01:26:58 AM »
I'm not taking one side or the other here, but I'm just going to briefly comment that "X doesn't offend me, therefore it is not offensive" is not a coherent argument. Neither is "I've never heard of anyone being offended by X, therefore it is not offensive."

How about "this term offends me, so it must be an insult to everyone?" Or "I've heard some people take this term as an insult, so I'm gonna hammer everyone who uses it?" I'm not sure any of this is productive, though certain people do get a kick out of venting their righteous anger.  Or counter venting.  Or counter counter venting...

I can point to examples in this thread of people making the arguments I commented on. For example:

Quote
Yeah no kidding. As another female mustachian I've never been offended by someone using the term 'girl'.

and

Quote
This is the first I've heard of "girl" being derogatory.

and

Quote
Being a guy myself, all I can offer is my personal anecdotes of what I've observed around me, but in my experience both guys and girls call people "guys" and "girls," most especially when they're in the same age groups, and I've never seen someone take offense to this until now.

Can you do the same for the arguments you commented on? Be honest, please.

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2015, 01:51:12 AM »
It's true that the word "girl", and various other baby talk terms such as "tummy", "vacay", "fave", and "brekkie", are used a lot in Cosmopolitan and other magazines marketed exclusively to pre-adolescent females.

I abhor "vacay" and "fave", and I don't read Cosmopolitan so I can't claim to be an expert on their language, but "brekkie" is incredibly common in Australia. It's not that we're trying to be trendy, it's just a national sport to shorten as many words as possible. Barbie, arvo, ambos, firies...

I also wouldn't accuse any of my friends of baby talk if they used the word tummy.

swick

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2015, 03:32:16 AM »
MOD NOTE: Getting really off-topic here, and have gotten several reports. Please keep discussion to the topic in the OP or we will lock it down. Thanks.

Bardo

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2015, 05:31:54 AM »
Generally, adult women don't like being called "girls" any more than men like being called "infants". It's insulting. Anyone who persists in using the term is going to find it extremely difficult to get a date with an actual adult. Adults generally don't date people who come across as being either extremely patronizing, or a closet pedophile.

It's true that the word "girl", and various other baby talk terms such as "tummy", "vacay", "fave", and "brekkie", are used a lot in Cosmopolitan and other magazines marketed exclusively to pre-adolescent females. It's also true that the N-word is used a lot in rap music. Devotees of both forms of media often use the derogatory terms to refer to each other, but it doesn't mean it's OK for outsiders to use the term.

You have the Constitutional right to try to pick up an African-American by affectionately using the N-word, or to continue trying to pick up adult women by using patronizing language. You're also within your rights to tie a 3-day-old dead fish around your neck every time you go to the club. But if you stay committed to a strategy that's guaranteed to present you in the worst possible light, please don't bitch to the rest of us about the fact your game isn't working.

There are a substantial number of adult women who don't mind being called "girls", however they tend to take an extremely childish approach to life. Mustachians, by contrast, take an adult approach to life. So the set of adult human females willing to tolerate being called "girl" contains few or no Mustachians. There's zero overlap. It's like looking for a mime at an auctioneer's convention.

If you're looking for a Mustachian woman, avoid women who tolerate being treated like children, or who express a desire for it. Start checking out women who insist on being treated like an adult. Expunge the word "girl" from your vocabulary and your online dating profiles, unless you are in fact talking about a pre-adolescent female. The word is a major turn-off to any woman who actually pays her own freight and wants to be treated like an adult. Your odds of finding some hot Mustachian action will be infinitely better than it is now. (Right now, sir, I fear your odds are zero.)

Now, in the specific case described by the OP, the female person who's pretending she was cosmically forced to buy the SUV is in fact a "girl", that is to say less than an adult. Adults take responsibility for their own decisions and run their own lives. She refuses to do that, so by definition she's less than an adult. I'm actually OK calling HER a "girl", provided we refer to a man of a similar age, in a similar situation, as a "boy". I propose that we start doing exactly that.

Thoughtful and interesting post.
You do make the point about media targeting women indulging in the baby-talk fad.  By the same token, if one wishes to be perceived as an adult it is incumbent on you to avoid baby-talk yourself.  Can you really take seriously who uses terms like "vacay" or "tummy" or "veggie" in conversation?

Cookie78

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2015, 08:06:42 AM »
I'm not taking one side or the other here, but I'm just going to briefly comment that "X doesn't offend me, therefore it is not offensive" is not a coherent argument. Neither is "I've never heard of anyone being offended by X, therefore it is not offensive."

How about "this term offends me, so it must be an insult to everyone?" Or "I've heard some people take this term as an insult, so I'm gonna hammer everyone who uses it?" I'm not sure any of this is productive, though certain people do get a kick out of venting their righteous anger.  Or counter venting.  Or counter counter venting...

I can point to examples in this thread of people making the arguments I commented on. For example:

Quote
Yeah no kidding. As another female mustachian I've never been offended by someone using the term 'girl'.

and

Quote
This is the first I've heard of "girl" being derogatory.

and

Quote
Being a guy myself, all I can offer is my personal anecdotes of what I've observed around me, but in my experience both guys and girls call people "guys" and "girls," most especially when they're in the same age groups, and I've never seen someone take offense to this until now.

Can you do the same for the arguments you commented on? Be honest, please.

The first quote you posted was mine
Quote
Yeah no kidding. As another female mustachian I've never been offended by someone using the term 'girl'.

That was DIRECTLY in response to the idea that "this term offends me, so it must be an insult to everyone". And NOT implying at all that other women can not be offended because I am not offended. I was far more offended at the comment that if I disagreed (and was not offended by the term girl) then I must be childish.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 08:08:33 AM by Cookie78 »

MoneyCat

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2015, 08:34:37 AM »
The majority of people in general -- both men and women -- are extremely selfish and materialistic and the majority of people aren't really "marriage material".  It took me a long time to figure this out, but luckily I managed to find a "unicorn" and marry someone who shares all of my values.  It's extremely hard to find someone like that, because the culture of the Western World right now is to consume, consume, consume to prop yourself up and give your life meaning, when what really gives life meaning is sharing, caring, exploring, and loving.  Most people aren't equipped to think in those kinds of terms anymore.

Marus

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2015, 08:34:57 AM »
I feel like some people really need to learn how to think for themselves.  This can be hard though, since if you spend all your time surrounded by people who follow the same rigid life arc as you do, it's hard to come to the realization that you don't need to go out and buy that new SUV. 

That's why I love MMM but it's also why I listen to RPF or read Tim Ferriss.  I'm not as extreme or iconoclastic as most of the people I listen to, but I think there's value in seeing how people on the fringes of society live their lives.

ender

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2015, 08:39:49 AM »
FYI, this might make you more depressed, but a $40k vehicle at 0% interest over 7 years is about $475/month.

Add in a 2% interest rate and it's "only" $510/month. Even with a 20% downpayment and 0% interest it's $380/month.

... hoping they didn't finance it for SEVEN YEARS though.

Kaspian

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2015, 10:22:00 AM »
Thank you to the people who actually submitted a worthwhile reply.

I think my point is that it's just become so normal at least in North America to live a life of excess - To live far beyond your means, to make it look like you have cash flying out of your pockets when in fact you should be living a fairly modest lifestyle. Financial responsibility is an afterthought for most people these days.


If it's any consolation at all, in my experience the "normal" people--the ones who try as hard as possible to fit in, look perfect, and appear successful are emotionally and psychologically completely screwed up.  They're the Dexters, American Psychos, and CEOs of Enron.  They are extremely crazy as shit, or deeply depressed, or scared scarred, or sociopathic (yes, I'm aware those are all different mental issues) and often try and cover up the crazy as much as possible by looking status quo.  Eccentrics, punk rockers, those who have that hippie vibe going on, passionate activists, and other individuals are people who wear their hearts on their sleeves--no hidden agendas--what you see is what you get.  The woman you call a "stereotype", trying so hard to be one of the Joneses, is likely severely damaged goods anyway.  I avoid the nermals like the plague.

Sometimes when I go to out of town work meetings and all the male coworkers want to go to a strip bar (and I don't because I'm single and those things are way too fucking expensive for a beer) it's the most normal looking guys who campaign for it--the guys with normal hair, golf shirts, and ironed khakis.  And as soon as we get in there they're off paying for lapdances.  ...Which is disgusting.  Not the lapdance (no issue with that per se) but with these married idiots, who appear to be clean-cut upstanding members of the community, are really a bunch of dirty shitbags who cheat on their wives as soon as they can.   Not only are they sheeple jerks but they're obviously unhappy jerks with the lifepath they've chosen.  I'd love their wives to know what's really going on in their heads.  ....But knowing how unbelievably repressed the sheeple are they'd probably just do some crying and then try to appear as normal as possible again.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 10:24:08 AM by Kaspian »

iamlittlehedgehog

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2015, 10:57:03 AM »
I have no idea what I walked into so I'll say two thing.

1. I do not like being referred to as a "girl" by someone I don't know. Same reason I do not appreciate being called"honey" or "sweetie". However if I know you, then I won't care and I understand it is a term of endearment. Otherwise it rubs off as very patronizing to me. But, to each his own.

2. My boss is buying a custom 2016 Santa Fe because her old car is only 5k away from 100k miles(seriously? No one in my family has less than 100k mile on their car!) . She is also buying a boat this week. She is very sweet but I have to refrain from bringing this up when she complains that'll she'll never be able to retire.

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2015, 01:05:41 PM »
When she started talking about the new SUV purchase, she just said that life "forces you into it" - as in buying these sorts of things once you reach a certain age or point in your career, earnings etc.

It is much harder to sacrifice, live beneath your means, fuck the Jones', and get ahead. But so very few do it. Apparently because life "forces you into it". Just a big copout I say.

I think it comes down to people needing to rationalize their actions.

Cressida

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2015, 03:38:00 PM »
The first quote you posted was mine
Quote
Yeah no kidding. As another female mustachian I've never been offended by someone using the term 'girl'.

That was DIRECTLY in response to the idea that "this term offends me, so it must be an insult to everyone". And NOT implying at all that other women can not be offended because I am not offended. I was far more offended at the comment that if I disagreed (and was not offended by the term girl) then I must be childish.

But actually, the post you were replying to did not make the argument "this term offends me, so it must be an insult to everyone." If you go back and read it, the argument it makes is more like "women find this term offensive so don't use it." Whether that's a sound argument is also debatable, but it's not the argument I was talking about.

I agree that "this term offends me, so it must be an insult to everyone" is not a good argument, but I also don't think anyone was making it. That was the point of my response to EricL.

Like I said, I'm not staking a position on "girl," especially since the mods said to stop talking about it. But - and this is a general statement - I do wish people wouldn't misread and misinterpret posters so frequently. It makes it very difficult to communicate.

Back to OP: Mustachians are rare. They're rare among women *and* men. Other posters have had good ideas about narrowing the pool of candidates, but even so, it might not be a bad idea to dial back that expectation. You'll have the opportunity to share the gospel as you get to know someone.

Chris22

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2015, 03:53:26 PM »
Sometimes when I go to out of town work meetings and all the male coworkers want to go to a strip bar (and I don't because I'm single and those things are way too fucking expensive for a beer) it's the most normal looking guys who campaign for it--the guys with normal hair, golf shirts, and ironed khakis.  And as soon as we get in there they're off paying for lapdances.  ...Which is disgusting.  Not the lapdance (no issue with that per se) but with these married idiots, who appear to be clean-cut upstanding members of the community, are really a bunch of dirty shitbags who cheat on their wives as soon as they can.   Not only are they sheeple jerks but they're obviously unhappy jerks with the lifepath they've chosen.  I'd love their wives to know what's really going on in their heads.  ....But knowing how unbelievably repressed the sheeple are they'd probably just do some crying and then try to appear as normal as possible again.


TIL that buying a lapdance is cheating on my wife.  I've had lots of lap dances in my life.  For a dozen or two, my wife was right there with me, egging me on (and the best ones she was getting groped by the stripper too). 

I always tell my wife, the safest place for married dudes is the strip club, because no one is getting laid.  I go to a regular club, I could pick up a chick and get laid if I wanted to (didn't promise she was going to be hot... ;))  But pick up a stripper and hook up?  Not likely. 


You're making quite the leap of logic there and using it to villify perfectly normal people.  Take it back a notch, bro.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2015, 04:36:36 PM »
Sometimes when I go to out of town work meetings and all the male coworkers want to go to a strip bar (and I don't because I'm single and those things are way too fucking expensive for a beer) it's the most normal looking guys who campaign for it--the guys with normal hair, golf shirts, and ironed khakis.  And as soon as we get in there they're off paying for lapdances.  ...Which is disgusting.  Not the lapdance (no issue with that per se) but with these married idiots, who appear to be clean-cut upstanding members of the community, are really a bunch of dirty shitbags who cheat on their wives as soon as they can.   Not only are they sheeple jerks but they're obviously unhappy jerks with the lifepath they've chosen.  I'd love their wives to know what's really going on in their heads.  ....But knowing how unbelievably repressed the sheeple are they'd probably just do some crying and then try to appear as normal as possible again.


TIL that buying a lapdance is cheating on my wife.  I've had lots of lap dances in my life.  For a dozen or two, my wife was right there with me, egging me on (and the best ones she was getting groped by the stripper too). 

I always tell my wife, the safest place for married dudes is the strip club, because no one is getting laid.  I go to a regular club, I could pick up a chick and get laid if I wanted to (didn't promise she was going to be hot... ;))  But pick up a stripper and hook up?  Not likely. 


You're making quite the leap of logic there and using it to villify perfectly normal people.  Take it back a notch, bro.

I think it's up to the couple whether it's cheating or not. OP on lap dancing seems to be picking up on a secretive attitude about them--cutting loose because they're away from their wives. Your wife likes to watch you get lap dances, more power to you. I would not be comfortable with my husband making a habit of such a thing. (One on a whim, I would probably write off as a lark.)

tj

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2015, 07:59:56 PM »
I'm not taking one side or the other here, but I'm just going to briefly comment that "X doesn't offend me, therefore it is not offensive" is not a coherent argument. Neither is "I've never heard of anyone being offended by X, therefore it is not offensive."

It was never voiced as an argument, it's simply commentary/reaction.

JLee

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2015, 09:39:52 AM »
The first quote you posted was mine
Quote
Yeah no kidding. As another female mustachian I've never been offended by someone using the term 'girl'.

That was DIRECTLY in response to the idea that "this term offends me, so it must be an insult to everyone". And NOT implying at all that other women can not be offended because I am not offended. I was far more offended at the comment that if I disagreed (and was not offended by the term girl) then I must be childish.

But actually, the post you were replying to did not make the argument "this term offends me, so it must be an insult to everyone." If you go back and read it, the argument it makes is more like "women find this term offensive so don't use it." Whether that's a sound argument is also debatable, but it's not the argument I was talking about.
It certainly did. It didn't use those exact words, but the idea (thought, point, objective, goal) was absolutely that "this term offends me so it must offend all other women."  If that was not the poster's intent, perhaps it should have been worded differently as to not mislead numerous people.

Kaspian

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2015, 12:06:31 PM »

I think it's up to the couple whether it's cheating or not. OP on lap dancing seems to be picking up on a secretive attitude about them--cutting loose because they're away from their wives. Your wife likes to watch you get lap dances, more power to you. I would not be comfortable with my husband making a habit of such a thing. (One on a whim, I would probably write off as a lark.)

Actually, I was saying it's the ones who try so hard to look and act normal, perfect little nuclear family, and try to "fit in" with conformity that have deep-seeded aberrant behaviour.  They're the weirdo sheeps in wolves clothing.  :)

Chris22

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2015, 12:24:03 PM »

I think it's up to the couple whether it's cheating or not. OP on lap dancing seems to be picking up on a secretive attitude about them--cutting loose because they're away from their wives. Your wife likes to watch you get lap dances, more power to you. I would not be comfortable with my husband making a habit of such a thing. (One on a whim, I would probably write off as a lark.)

Actually, I was saying it's the ones who try so hard to look and act normal, perfect little nuclear family, and try to "fit in" with conformity that have deep-seeded aberrant behaviour.  They're the weirdo sheeps in wolves clothing.  :)

Honestly, I basically fit your description.  Clean cut, very corporate, suburban white picket fence type life, and yeah, every once in a while I like to go to the titty bar, either while on a work trip or bachelor party, etc.  And once or twice with my wife (Key West is a great place to cut loose).  I never thought of it as "deep-seeded [sic] aberrant behaviour" that I should be ashamed of.  I don't always tell my wife, but I don't go out of my way to hide it, either.  I didn't/don't think it's nearly the taboo you've made it out to be.  It's about 100000 miles from actually cheating on your wife, IMO.

Kaspian

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2015, 01:16:30 PM »

I think it's up to the couple whether it's cheating or not. OP on lap dancing seems to be picking up on a secretive attitude about them--cutting loose because they're away from their wives. Your wife likes to watch you get lap dances, more power to you. I would not be comfortable with my husband making a habit of such a thing. (One on a whim, I would probably write off as a lark.)

Actually, I was saying it's the ones who try so hard to look and act normal, perfect little nuclear family, and try to "fit in" with conformity that have deep-seeded aberrant behaviour.  They're the weirdo sheeps in wolves clothing.  :)

Honestly, I basically fit your description.  Clean cut, very corporate, suburban white picket fence type life, and yeah, every once in a while I like to go to the titty bar, either while on a work trip or bachelor party, etc.  And once or twice with my wife (Key West is a great place to cut loose).  I never thought of it as "deep-seeded [sic] aberrant behaviour" that I should be ashamed of.  I don't always tell my wife, but I don't go out of my way to hide it, either.  I didn't/don't think it's nearly the taboo you've made it out to be.  It's about 100000 miles from actually cheating on your wife, IMO.

Touché!  ...I honestly never knew the term was "deep-seated".  :) 

So, like the OP was talking about, you appear to be sort of "stereotypical" outwardly?  Damn, dude--sorry, that look gives me the creeps.  I find it hard to trust anyone who looks like the cover of an Abercrombie or Sears catalogue.  I didn't think there were any normal people in Key West? 

Could you pass for one of the people in the attached?  Thrust into that group is my personal nightmare 'cause I'd believe everyone was either fake or psycho.

Chris22

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2015, 01:24:32 PM »

I think it's up to the couple whether it's cheating or not. OP on lap dancing seems to be picking up on a secretive attitude about them--cutting loose because they're away from their wives. Your wife likes to watch you get lap dances, more power to you. I would not be comfortable with my husband making a habit of such a thing. (One on a whim, I would probably write off as a lark.)

Actually, I was saying it's the ones who try so hard to look and act normal, perfect little nuclear family, and try to "fit in" with conformity that have deep-seeded aberrant behaviour.  They're the weirdo sheeps in wolves clothing.  :)

Honestly, I basically fit your description.  Clean cut, very corporate, suburban white picket fence type life, and yeah, every once in a while I like to go to the titty bar, either while on a work trip or bachelor party, etc.  And once or twice with my wife (Key West is a great place to cut loose).  I never thought of it as "deep-seeded [sic] aberrant behaviour" that I should be ashamed of.  I don't always tell my wife, but I don't go out of my way to hide it, either.  I didn't/don't think it's nearly the taboo you've made it out to be.  It's about 100000 miles from actually cheating on your wife, IMO.

Touché!  ...I honestly never knew the term was "deep-seated".  :) 

So, like the OP was talking about, you appear to be sort of "stereotypical" outwardly?  Damn, dude--sorry, that look gives me the creeps.  I find it hard to trust anyone who looks like the cover of an Abercrombie or Sears catalogue.  I didn't think there were any normal people in Key West? 

Could you pass for one of the people in the attached?  Thrust into that group is my personal nightmare 'cause I'd believe everyone was either fake or psycho.

I work in an office.  I wear dress pants and a button down shirt every day.  I have a normal haircut.  Yeah, I guess I give you nightmares? 

Cressida

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2015, 09:24:09 PM »
The first quote you posted was mine
Quote
Yeah no kidding. As another female mustachian I've never been offended by someone using the term 'girl'.

That was DIRECTLY in response to the idea that "this term offends me, so it must be an insult to everyone". And NOT implying at all that other women can not be offended because I am not offended. I was far more offended at the comment that if I disagreed (and was not offended by the term girl) then I must be childish.

But actually, the post you were replying to did not make the argument "this term offends me, so it must be an insult to everyone." If you go back and read it, the argument it makes is more like "women find this term offensive so don't use it." Whether that's a sound argument is also debatable, but it's not the argument I was talking about.

It certainly did. It didn't use those exact words, but the idea (thought, point, objective, goal) was absolutely that "this term offends me so it must offend all other women."  If that was not the poster's intent, perhaps it should have been worded differently as to not mislead numerous people.

Sorry, but you are just wrong. The post says multiple times that "women" think one thing or another. The post is *starting from* the proposition that the term is offensive. The post is *not* saying that "this term offends me so it must offend all other women." That was not its argument.

This is hardly important anymore, but I responded anyway because I don't appreciate being gainsaid with utter inaccuracy.

[edited: clarity]
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 10:07:49 PM by Cressida »

SwordGuy

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2015, 09:59:11 PM »
I always tell my wife, the safest place for married dudes is the strip club, because no one is getting laid.  I go to a regular club, I could pick up a chick and get laid if I wanted to (didn't promise she was going to be hot... ;))  But pick up a stripper and hook up?  Not likely. 

I don't know about that.   Small sample pool, but the pair of strippers who lived next door to me in Atlanta brought home guys from the club all the time.   (Then got into really loud screaming fights in their front yard at 1am in the morning, which is how I know...   Well, actually, how I first found out is from running outside to save a damsel in distress with the nearest weapon at hand, which happened to be one of my swords.)  After the first several episodes of this, I just tuned them out.

limeandpepper

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2015, 11:03:02 PM »
Sorry, but you are just wrong. The post says multiple times that "women" think one thing or another. The post is *starting from* the proposition that the term is offensive. The post is *not* saying that "this term offends me so it must offend all other women." That was not its argument.

You're right. The post only says that "this term offends me, and any woman who is not offended 'does not pay her own freight and has no interest in being treated like an adult'." I guess that makes it better.

There are a substantial number of adult women who don't mind being called "girls", however they tend to take an extremely childish approach to life. Mustachians, by contrast, take an adult approach to life. So the set of adult human females willing to tolerate being called "girl" contains few or no Mustachians. There's zero overlap. It's like looking for a mime at an auctioneer's convention.

If you're looking for a Mustachian woman, avoid women who tolerate being treated like children, or who express a desire for it. Start checking out women who insist on being treated like an adult. Expunge the word "girl" from your vocabulary and your online dating profiles, unless you are in fact talking about a pre-adolescent female. The word is a major turn-off to any woman who actually pays her own freight and wants to be treated like an adult.

Sorry, mods. I'm not sure this thread can be rescued - everyone is still going off topic and there's even a side discussion on strip clubs now, so I didn't see the need to refrain. :p  Perhaps in future people who want to write long off-topic rants should start a separate thread for it? Hard to expect people not to react when someone writes a provocative post.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 11:11:14 PM by limeandpepper »

Cressida

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2015, 11:31:38 PM »
Sorry, but you are just wrong. The post says multiple times that "women" think one thing or another. The post is *starting from* the proposition that the term is offensive. The post is *not* saying that "this term offends me so it must offend all other women." That was not its argument.

You're right. The post only says that "this term offends me, and any woman who is not offended 'does not pay her own freight and has no interest in being treated like an adult'." I guess that makes it better.

First off, the post did not say "this term offends me." I already made that point above. Second, I specifically said I was not siding with that poster. See below.

If you go back and read it, the argument it makes is more like "women find this term offensive so don't use it." Whether that's a sound argument is also debatable, but it's not the argument I was talking about.

It's pretty sad that earlier in THIS VERY THREAD I said this ...

I do wish people wouldn't misread and misinterpret posters so frequently. It makes it very difficult to communicate.

... since that's pretty much all that's happening here.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 11:34:41 PM by Cressida »

limeandpepper

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2015, 11:40:29 PM »
I specifically said I was not siding with that poster.

It's pretty sad that earlier in THIS VERY THREAD I said this ...

I do wish people wouldn't misread and misinterpret posters so frequently. It makes it very difficult to communicate.

... since that's pretty much all that's happening here.

I read what you said. And all I'm saying is that "this term offends me, and any woman who is not offended 'does not pay her own freight and has no interest in being treated like an adult'" is just as bad, if not worse than "this term offends me so it must offend all other women". You can choose to agree or disagree with that.

First off, the post did not say "this term offends me."

I think it's fair to say that the poster finds the term less than desirable, and has taken the time to write a lengthy rant about it. That is her right. But if she is going to make sweeping comments about other women, she can expect some disagreement. I have no interest in splitting hairs any further.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 11:45:08 PM by limeandpepper »

dragoncar

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2015, 11:41:05 PM »
Generally, adult women don't like being called "girls" any more than men like being called "infants". It's insulting. Anyone who persists in using the term is going to find it extremely difficult to get a date with an actual adult. Adults generally don't date people who come across as being either extremely patronizing, or a closet pedophile.

It's true that the word "girl", and various other baby talk terms such as "tummy", "vacay", "fave", and "brekkie", are used a lot in Cosmopolitan and other magazines marketed exclusively to pre-adolescent females. It's also true that the N-word is used a lot in rap music. Devotees of both forms of media often use the derogatory terms to refer to each other, but it doesn't mean it's OK for outsiders to use the term.

And now, we've come full circle: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/overheard-on-facebook/msg566897/#msg566897

Cressida

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2015, 11:53:44 PM »
I have no interest in splitting hairs any further.

Just as well, since everything you just wrote was a non sequitur. The record speaks for itself.

limeandpepper

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2015, 12:04:58 AM »
I have no interest in splitting hairs any further.

Just as well, since everything you just wrote was a non sequitur. The record speaks for itself.

I like that we're now resorting to insults. I won't do the same to you, however. :)

Cressida

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #80 on: July 09, 2015, 12:32:15 AM »
I like that we're now resorting to insults. I won't do the same to you, however. :)

I stated that your comments were not logical responses to my comments. That's not an "insult." It's a disprovable position.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #81 on: July 09, 2015, 06:19:08 AM »
WRT to meeting people and dating, while not all mustachians are like this, there are some activities that are a natural fit with an MMM lifestyle. I would suggest finding classes or social groups in your area dedicated to these things: hiking groups, cycling groups, homebrew classes, volunteering on an organic farm... Get chatting to people and see if they walk the walk as well as talking the talk.

Kaspian

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #82 on: July 09, 2015, 10:16:22 AM »
I work in an office.  I wear dress pants and a button down shirt every day.  I have a normal haircut.  Yeah, I guess I give you nightmares?

Yeah, probably.  (Sorry.)  Just, if you don't mind, in my nightmares please, please don't drag me to any patio parties like the one in the picture?  :)  The horror!

The image in my mind of most of the Mustachians is as a slightly scraggly, bohemian, laidback lot who wear a few items of clothing from Goodwill and show up in a bike dragging a homemade trailer full of homemade or micro brews.  ...It's not a bad image, I'm borderline on that myself.  And before anyone jumps down my throat, I don't think the above stereotype as dirty or hobo, I think it's very cool!  I'm so much more comfortable around a crew like that rather than an upper-middle class appearance and behaving group who talk about golf scores and how nice it would be to have a place in the Hamptons. 

Zamboni

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #83 on: July 09, 2015, 11:20:15 AM »
Regarding clothing:

Many fiscally responsible people are just not interested in clothing. At all. No interest. Therefore, such folks cover themselves with clothing mainly to be minimally socially acceptable and not noticed when leaving their house, as showing up naked or in a bathrobe and shower shoes would lead to job loss and possibly arrest. I have worked with many engineers like this.

Such folks generally do not care to have their appearance or apparel commented upon. And if one doesn't care about clothing, wearing what is least likely to be noticed depends upon where you live. Where I live, at work/the airport/on the street the "pay no attention to me" uniform for men is khaki pants and a neutral colored polo or button down shirt. Exactly like the patio party photo. I have a colleague who has never had a car or even a driver's license, saves all his money, and cooks for his hobby, but he could pull up a chair at that party and no one would notice him. Where my brother lives, the "pay no attention to me" uniform is jeans and a plain, dark colored t-shirt or flannel shirt. The khakis would get you noticed, so I bet my colleague would change into his jeans and a t-shirt. Just because he doesn't want people to think about what he is wearing . . . ever.

When in Rome, as they say, blend. That doesn't mean you have to take out a car note, of course.

Amasa

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2015, 12:46:40 PM »
Relevant to OP's post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T39kYzzv_3Q

People who think that life forces them into things (buying an SUV, etc.) don't have a strong enough sense of agency in their lives. From the video, they don't believe "that what they do now affects who they get to be." Agency is a super powerful thing to the Mustachian, possibly the most powerful. Without it, I don't know if any of us would be able to do the amazing things we have done.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 02:57:17 PM by Amasa »

Eric

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #85 on: July 10, 2015, 02:09:14 PM »
I work in an office.  I wear dress pants and a button down shirt every day.  I have a normal haircut.  Yeah, I guess I give you nightmares?

Yeah, probably.  (Sorry.)  Just, if you don't mind, in my nightmares please, please don't drag me to any patio parties like the one in the picture?  :)  The horror!

The image in my mind of most of the Mustachians is as a slightly scraggly, bohemian, laidback lot who wear a few items of clothing from Goodwill and show up in a bike dragging a homemade trailer full of homemade or micro brews.  ...It's not a bad image, I'm borderline on that myself.  And before anyone jumps down my throat, I don't think the above stereotype as dirty or hobo, I think it's very cool!  I'm so much more comfortable around a crew like that rather than an upper-middle class appearance and behaving group who talk about golf scores and how nice it would be to have a place in the Hamptons.

Ha!  As someone who also wears dress pants and a button down shirt to the office everyday, but arrives there on a bike with a old milk crate fixed to the rear rack, I'd totally fuck with you in your dreams.  Like the two-faced girl woman in Seinfeld.  By day, I'm a straight-laced uptight accountant and by night I'm a scraggly hippie stoner.  But I would totally hang out at the patio party.  There's definitely some free booze to be scored with that crew.


Gin1984

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #86 on: July 10, 2015, 02:43:10 PM »
I agree that as a man, I don't get a say in what is derogatory to women. Having said that, I would never use the term "girl" as derogative.

Real question: what about the term "girlfriend"? (either to mean female significant other or as a female friend)
Actually most older adults do seem to prefer to not call their female life partner "girlfriend", seeing it as childish. 

dragoncar

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #87 on: July 11, 2015, 12:23:54 PM »
I agree that as a man, I don't get a say in what is derogatory to women. Having said that, I would never use the term "girl" as derogative.

Real question: what about the term "girlfriend"? (either to mean female significant other or as a female friend)
Actually most older adults do seem to prefer to not call their female life partner "girlfriend", seeing it as childish.

Older people prefer "Lady friend" or "that Dame I'm banging"

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #88 on: July 11, 2015, 04:40:46 PM »
Therefore, such folks cover themselves with clothing mainly to be minimally socially acceptable and not noticed when leaving their house, as showing up naked or in a bathrobe and shower shoes would lead to job loss and possibly arrest.

Crap, that's not acceptable? Just this year we were on a cruise, and one of the theme nights was "white". Not having any white clothes, we put on our complimentary bathrobes. Ok, our toddler was too small for a bathrobe, so we threw a towel on him.

Real question: what about the term "girlfriend"? (either to mean female significant other or as a female friend)
Actually most older adults do seem to prefer to not call their female life partner "girlfriend", seeing it as childish.

In Australia everyone seems to use the term "partner". At first I thought that there were a lot of gay people, then I thought that there were a lot of unmarried people shacking up. Turns out the term is used for anyone you're partnered with, be it a boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, or husband. Seriously, I can't recall anyone using the term wife or husband since being here (I'm sure it's happened at some point, I just can't recall it).

Oh, I almost forgot the obligatory "I'm not against gay people or unmarried people or shacking up or having a sheep as a life partner" statement.

Zamboni

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #89 on: July 11, 2015, 04:49:04 PM »
I mostly use "partner" or "other half." Either sends people immediately looking at my hand to see if there is a ring, and then I can see their wheels turning if they try to decide if I'm gay or straight. It's fun.

Gin1984

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #90 on: July 11, 2015, 06:53:42 PM »
I mostly use "partner" or "other half." Either sends people immediately looking at my hand to see if there is a ring, and then I can see their wheels turning if they try to decide if I'm gay or straight. It's fun.
Now you are evil. :D  I'm going to start doing that. 

WildJager

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2015, 12:22:47 PM »
I agree that as a man, I don't get a say in what is derogatory to women. Having said that, I would never use the term "girl" as derogative.

Real question: what about the term "girlfriend"? (either to mean female significant other or as a female friend)
Actually most older adults do seem to prefer to not call their female life partner "girlfriend", seeing it as childish.

Older people prefer "Lady friend" or "that Dame I'm banging"

I don't actually laugh out loud much when reading things on the internet, but that almost made me spill my beer.  Perhaps it was conditioned as a result of the serious (dull) discussion of semantics going on, but I appreciate the comic relief.

WildJager

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2015, 12:25:58 PM »
Relevant to OP's post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T39kYzzv_3Q

People who think that life forces them into things (buying an SUV, etc.) don't have a strong enough sense of agency in their lives. From the video, they don't believe "that what they do now affects who they get to be." Agency is a super powerful thing to the Mustachian, possibly the most powerful. Without it, I don't know if any of us would be able to do the amazing things we have done.

Thanks for the link.  I've recognized the potential for games to help with fine motor skills and problem solving in children, but hadn't really considered agency.  Very intriguing.

Wilson Hall

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #93 on: July 12, 2015, 02:03:31 PM »
I agree that as a man, I don't get a say in what is derogatory to women. Having said that, I would never use the term "girl" as derogative.

Real question: what about the term "girlfriend"? (either to mean female significant other or as a female friend)
Actually most older adults do seem to prefer to not call their female life partner "girlfriend", seeing it as childish.

Older people prefer "Lady friend" or "that Dame I'm banging"

"She's not my special lady, she's my f**king lady friend. I'm just helping her conceive, man!"

SwordGuy

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #94 on: July 13, 2015, 08:08:41 PM »
Going back to the original topic, something that really pisses me off is the entire mass media culture around regular folks who make bad decisions.  No one in the mass media culture is either allowed, or chooses to, or even knows enough to mention that the problems these people face are largely of their own making due to a string of bad decisions.  I have no idea which of the 3 proposed reasons is the correct one.

Wilson Hall

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #95 on: July 14, 2015, 07:22:08 AM »
Going back to the original topic, something that really pisses me off is the entire mass media culture around regular folks who make bad decisions.  No one in the mass media culture is either allowed, or chooses to, or even knows enough to mention that the problems these people face are largely of their own making due to a string of bad decisions.  I have no idea which of the 3 proposed reasons is the correct one.

The mass media culture does tend to promote the "buy this, you deserve it" BS that gets so many people into financial trouble. Got to keep the sponsors happy by putting more consumers on the hamster spending wheel.

Sam E

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2015, 08:04:46 AM »
Going back to the original topic, something that really pisses me off is the entire mass media culture around regular folks who make bad decisions.  No one in the mass media culture is either allowed, or chooses to, or even knows enough to mention that the problems these people face are largely of their own making due to a string of bad decisions.  I have no idea which of the 3 proposed reasons is the correct one.

The mass media culture does tend to promote the "buy this, you deserve it" BS that gets so many people into financial trouble. Got to keep the sponsors happy by putting more consumers on the hamster spending wheel.


onehair

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2015, 08:08:19 AM »
That's putting it mildly.  I notice in the evenings when I am half paying attention to the television (half due to my needlework habit before bed)  WE (Women's Entertainment channel is my usual  method of torture for the evening).  The sheer amount of ads alone!  Wayfair who promises to have everything for your home( Expensive clutter I say), loads and loads of prescription drugs with more side effects than good effects, pure D junk gadgets ( the ever popular egg sheller, some gadget you put raw eggs in that scrambles them, a special pan for pancakes etc), cars cars cars, fast food.

I usually switch to a nearly ad free channel like Public Television to detox.

dragoncar

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #98 on: July 14, 2015, 09:29:40 AM »

Zamboni

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #99 on: July 14, 2015, 12:50:48 PM »
^ :-) Jeff Goldblum should be in every thread. Or at least every thread that involves SofaKing.

Quote
some gadget you put raw eggs in that scrambles them

"But Mom! It's all cooked and ready to eat out of it's own special cup! We NEED this!"

Oy, I had to talk my 12 year old out of that one by proving that the same effect could be generated using a regular fork, coffee cup, small plate, and microwave. I'm actually fairly sure that the small plate wasn't even necessary, but child seem convinced that it need some kind of loose lid to "seal in moisture." Uh huh.