Author Topic: Life "forces you into it".  (Read 34795 times)

MissionPossible

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Life "forces you into it".
« on: July 05, 2015, 09:41:56 PM »
I had a conversation with a girl at work recently. She bought a new SUV for approx $40k. I'm not going to go through the effort of figuring out her payments but we can probably safely assume it's in the neighbourhood of $400+/mo.

She's a smart girl, but she is as stereotypical as it gets in terms of her path in life. Go to college, build up career, get married, have children. Very predictable. Not that there is anything wrong with that if that's what you want, but to me i've never been enamoured with the whole idea of that pre-chosen path in life.

When she started talking about the new SUV purchase, she just said that life "forces you into it" - as in buying these sorts of things once you reach a certain age or point in your career, earnings etc. I just don't agree with that. Forcing you into it would be me holding a gun to your head and telling you to buy the SUV or that's all she wrote for you. You going out and buying it on your own accord because you succumbed to the pressure of keeping up with the Jones' is your own fault.

I think this is why I find the dating world so frustrating these days. It is extremely rare to find a girl out there who understands the idea behind this MMM style of living. It is so easy to go out and buy a new SUV, buy this and that, make it look like you have it all going on, meanwhile behind the scenes you really aren't doing that great at all.

It is much harder to sacrifice, live beneath your means, fuck the Jones', and get ahead. But so very few do it. Apparently because life "forces you into it". Just a big copout I say. 

Zamboni

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2015, 10:11:53 PM »
Yes, many people seem to have this "I'm just a stick floating in the currents of the river" attitude about their choices. But not everyone does.

In terms of dating, the best strategy is finding groups of people who legitimately share your interests and worldview and take it from there.

tj

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2015, 12:10:27 AM »
At a kickball game a few weeks ago, one girl mentioned that she had good retirement benefits at her job at the university, another girl said 'but you're way too young to be thinking about that...."

former player

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2015, 05:54:55 AM »
It's groupthink.  People get socialised into it at school and then never grow out of it.

Candace

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2015, 06:59:13 AM »
I think most people just haven't taken the time or spent the effort to deeply consider why they make the life choices they do.

Most people are just sheep. They follow the crowd because it's easier. There is also overt and subtle pressure to do so. Since most people haven't taken the trouble or spent the effort to think of alternatives that they might like better, they just go along. Then later they have an undefined yearning and an unhappiness nicely captured by Jackson Browne's "The Pretender". By that time, they have commitments and they have established a pattern their loved ones expect them to keep following.

PARedbeard

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2015, 07:11:38 AM »
It's groupthink.  People get socialised into it at school and then never grow out of it.

Or they get it from their family.

forummm

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2015, 07:24:58 AM »
It's groupthink.  People get socialised into it at school and then never grow out of it.

Or they get it from their family.

Or the tens of billions of dollars spent on ads each year designed to make you think that way.

<notes SUV ad literally 1 inch below this box as this is being typed>

dude

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2015, 07:26:49 AM »
Ugh.  Just had a similar discussion with the wife this weekend -- she just seems to me to careen through life like a tumbleweed blown by the wind.  She's never articulated any dreams or life goals to me in our 24+ years together.  I am a dreamer -- not big, fantastical dreams, but dreams of a more free, purposeful life. And I articulate those dreams very often, and take actionable steps to bring them to fruition.  Which she seems to interpret as some mid-life crisis (which apparently I've been in now for about 14 years).  Very frustrating.  I'm not giving up on her though, because she has come around little by little to my way of thinking; she's just very slow to break free from the grips of the conventional.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2015, 08:27:34 AM »
Generally, adult women don't like being called "girls" any more than men like being called "infants". It's insulting. Anyone who persists in using the term is going to find it extremely difficult to get a date with an actual adult. Adults generally don't date people who come across as being either extremely patronizing, or a closet pedophile.

It's true that the word "girl", and various other baby talk terms such as "tummy", "vacay", "fave", and "brekkie", are used a lot in Cosmopolitan and other magazines marketed exclusively to pre-adolescent females. It's also true that the N-word is used a lot in rap music. Devotees of both forms of media often use the derogatory terms to refer to each other, but it doesn't mean it's OK for outsiders to use the term.

You have the Constitutional right to try to pick up an African-American by affectionately using the N-word, or to continue trying to pick up adult women by using patronizing language. You're also within your rights to tie a 3-day-old dead fish around your neck every time you go to the club. But if you stay committed to a strategy that's guaranteed to present you in the worst possible light, please don't bitch to the rest of us about the fact your game isn't working.

There are a substantial number of adult women who don't mind being called "girls", however they tend to take an extremely childish approach to life. Mustachians, by contrast, take an adult approach to life. So the set of adult human females willing to tolerate being called "girl" contains few or no Mustachians. There's zero overlap. It's like looking for a mime at an auctioneer's convention.

If you're looking for a Mustachian woman, avoid women who tolerate being treated like children, or who express a desire for it. Start checking out women who insist on being treated like an adult. Expunge the word "girl" from your vocabulary and your online dating profiles, unless you are in fact talking about a pre-adolescent female. The word is a major turn-off to any woman who actually pays her own freight and wants to be treated like an adult. Your odds of finding some hot Mustachian action will be infinitely better than it is now. (Right now, sir, I fear your odds are zero.)

Now, in the specific case described by the OP, the female person who's pretending she was cosmically forced to buy the SUV is in fact a "girl", that is to say less than an adult. Adults take responsibility for their own decisions and run their own lives. She refuses to do that, so by definition she's less than an adult. I'm actually OK calling HER a "girl", provided we refer to a man of a similar age, in a similar situation, as a "boy". I propose that we start doing exactly that.

Louisville

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2015, 08:35:41 AM »
Generally, adult women don't like being called "girls" any more than men like being called "infants". It's insulting. Anyone who persists in using the term is going to find it extremely difficult to get a date with an actual adult. Adults generally don't date people who come across as being either extremely patronizing, or a closet pedophile.

It's true that the word "girl", and various other baby talk terms such as "tummy", "vacay", "fave", and "brekkie", are used a lot in Cosmopolitan and other magazines marketed exclusively to pre-adolescent females. It's also true that the N-word is used a lot in rap music. Devotees of both forms of media often use the derogatory terms to refer to each other, but it doesn't mean it's OK for outsiders to use the term.

You have the Constitutional right to try to pick up an African-American by affectionately using the N-word, or to continue trying to pick up adult women by using patronizing language. You're also within your rights to tie a 3-day-old dead fish around your neck every time you go to the club. But if you stay committed to a strategy that's guaranteed to present you in the worst possible light, please don't bitch to the rest of us about the fact your game isn't working.

There are a substantial number of adult women who don't mind being called "girls", however they tend to take an extremely childish approach to life. Mustachians, by contrast, take an adult approach to life. So the set of adult human females willing to tolerate being called "girl" contains few or no Mustachians. There's zero overlap. It's like looking for a mime at an auctioneer's convention.

If you're looking for a Mustachian woman, avoid women who tolerate being treated like children, or who express a desire for it. Start checking out women who insist on being treated like an adult. Expunge the word "girl" from your vocabulary and your online dating profiles, unless you are in fact talking about a pre-adolescent female. The word is a major turn-off to any woman who actually pays her own freight and wants to be treated like an adult. Your odds of finding some hot Mustachian action will be infinitely better than it is now. (Right now, sir, I fear your odds are zero.)

Now, in the specific case described by the OP, the female person who's pretending she was cosmically forced to buy the SUV is in fact a "girl", that is to say less than an adult. Adults take responsibility for their own decisions and run their own lives. She refuses to do that, so by definition she's less than an adult. I'm actually OK calling HER a "girl", provided we refer to a man of a similar age, in a similar situation, as a "boy". I propose that we start doing exactly that.
Note bolded.
Kind of like your entire post?

Zamboni

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2015, 09:08:40 AM »
Brava, TGS, the essay you penned pretty much sums it up.

Even in the locker room, females who are consciously competing to win in sports and in life most often refer to each other as "ladies," not "girls." Maybe the trick is to find someone who seriously has it together without being intimidated by how seriously she has it together?

Or, put another way, are you confident enough to listen to her stated viewpoint and fully appreciate and respect what she has to say? If so, then bravo for you. If not, then maybe you should stick to metaphorical (egad not literal!) girls.

Note bolded.

Jouer

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2015, 09:25:12 AM »
Wait? The male version of girl is infant? I thought infant was non-gender specific.
/sarcasm

Candace

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2015, 09:35:44 AM »
That post may have been strident, but he or she does have a point. It really is not cool in this day and age to refer to adult women as girls. I think it shows or encourages a tendency to actually think of them as girls.

Erica/NWEdible

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2015, 09:48:20 AM »
Generally, adult women don't like being called "girls" any more than men like being called "infants". It's insulting. Anyone who persists in using the term is going to find it extremely difficult to get a date with an actual adult. Adults generally don't date people who come across as being either extremely patronizing, or a closet pedophile.

It's true that the word "girl", and various other baby talk terms such as "tummy", "vacay", "fave", and "brekkie", are used a lot in Cosmopolitan and other magazines marketed exclusively to pre-adolescent females. It's also true that the N-word is used a lot in rap music. Devotees of both forms of media often use the derogatory terms to refer to each other, but it doesn't mean it's OK for outsiders to use the term.

You have the Constitutional right to try to pick up an African-American by affectionately using the N-word, or to continue trying to pick up adult women by using patronizing language. You're also within your rights to tie a 3-day-old dead fish around your neck every time you go to the club. But if you stay committed to a strategy that's guaranteed to present you in the worst possible light, please don't bitch to the rest of us about the fact your game isn't working.

There are a substantial number of adult women who don't mind being called "girls", however they tend to take an extremely childish approach to life. Mustachians, by contrast, take an adult approach to life. So the set of adult human females willing to tolerate being called "girl" contains few or no Mustachians. There's zero overlap. It's like looking for a mime at an auctioneer's convention.

If you're looking for a Mustachian woman, avoid women who tolerate being treated like children, or who express a desire for it. Start checking out women who insist on being treated like an adult. Expunge the word "girl" from your vocabulary and your online dating profiles, unless you are in fact talking about a pre-adolescent female. The word is a major turn-off to any woman who actually pays her own freight and wants to be treated like an adult. Your odds of finding some hot Mustachian action will be infinitely better than it is now. (Right now, sir, I fear your odds are zero.)

Now, in the specific case described by the OP, the female person who's pretending she was cosmically forced to buy the SUV is in fact a "girl", that is to say less than an adult. Adults take responsibility for their own decisions and run their own lives. She refuses to do that, so by definition she's less than an adult. I'm actually OK calling HER a "girl", provided we refer to a man of a similar age, in a similar situation, as a "boy". I propose that we start doing exactly that.

Uh.....so offering my perspective as a female, non-adolescent mustachian, there are many situations in which people could use the term girl at me and I would find it totally non-offensive. I read OPs "girl" as the female equivalent of the term "guy" which is how it is often used. I suppose we could work to substitute "gal" which is a more legitimate parallel to "guy" but then we'd have to deal with such charming terms as "Gal Friday."

In any event comparing a male using the term "girl" to refer to a female with a beige person using "the n-word" to refer to a brown person seems like a stretch. Maybe you feel the patriarchy breathing down your neck that strongly, but I just don't.

limeandpepper

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2015, 09:59:59 AM »
While the male equivalent of "girls" can be "boys", it can also be "guys". Do the people who have a problem with casually using "girls" for young women also have a problem with using "guys" for young men? Because I've never heard anyone complain about the casual use of the latter. I'd only see an imbalance if someone referred to someone as a "girl" and then referred to a guy of the same age as a "man". It's all about perspective.

There are a substantial number of adult women who don't mind being called "girls", however they tend to take an extremely childish approach to life. Mustachians, by contrast, take an adult approach to life. So the set of adult human females willing to tolerate being called "girl" contains few or no Mustachians. There's zero overlap. It's like looking for a mime at an auctioneer's convention.

I find this generalization to be more offensive than OP's use of "girls" in the context of his post.

By the way, I looked at your post history and found numerous uses of the word "guy". I propose you change them all to "man" so as not to appear so hypocritical.

Hmm, does anyone think the guy who joined the watch appreciation group would have been so readily accepted if he "liked" the product but didn't actually own one?

Jordan Weissmann at Slate just blasted this guy, and NYT too, for publishing such irresponsible nonsense.

Cookie78

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2015, 10:05:08 AM »
Generally, adult women don't like being called "girls" any more than men like being called "infants". It's insulting. Anyone who persists in using the term is going to find it extremely difficult to get a date with an actual adult. Adults generally don't date people who come across as being either extremely patronizing, or a closet pedophile.

It's true that the word "girl", and various other baby talk terms such as "tummy", "vacay", "fave", and "brekkie", are used a lot in Cosmopolitan and other magazines marketed exclusively to pre-adolescent females. It's also true that the N-word is used a lot in rap music. Devotees of both forms of media often use the derogatory terms to refer to each other, but it doesn't mean it's OK for outsiders to use the term.

You have the Constitutional right to try to pick up an African-American by affectionately using the N-word, or to continue trying to pick up adult women by using patronizing language. You're also within your rights to tie a 3-day-old dead fish around your neck every time you go to the club. But if you stay committed to a strategy that's guaranteed to present you in the worst possible light, please don't bitch to the rest of us about the fact your game isn't working.

There are a substantial number of adult women who don't mind being called "girls", however they tend to take an extremely childish approach to life. Mustachians, by contrast, take an adult approach to life. So the set of adult human females willing to tolerate being called "girl" contains few or no Mustachians. There's zero overlap. It's like looking for a mime at an auctioneer's convention.

If you're looking for a Mustachian woman, avoid women who tolerate being treated like children, or who express a desire for it. Start checking out women who insist on being treated like an adult. Expunge the word "girl" from your vocabulary and your online dating profiles, unless you are in fact talking about a pre-adolescent female. The word is a major turn-off to any woman who actually pays her own freight and wants to be treated like an adult. Your odds of finding some hot Mustachian action will be infinitely better than it is now. (Right now, sir, I fear your odds are zero.)

Now, in the specific case described by the OP, the female person who's pretending she was cosmically forced to buy the SUV is in fact a "girl", that is to say less than an adult. Adults take responsibility for their own decisions and run their own lives. She refuses to do that, so by definition she's less than an adult. I'm actually OK calling HER a "girl", provided we refer to a man of a similar age, in a similar situation, as a "boy". I propose that we start doing exactly that.

Uh.....so offering my perspective as a female, non-adolescent mustachian, there are many situations in which people could use the term girl at me and I would find it totally non-offensive. I read OPs "girl" as the female equivalent of the term "guy" which is how it is often used. I suppose we could work to substitute "gal" which is a more legitimate parallel to "guy" but then we'd have to deal with such charming terms as "Gal Friday."

In any event comparing a male using the term "girl" to refer to a female with a beige person using "the n-word" to refer to a brown person seems like a stretch. Maybe you feel the patriarchy breathing down your neck that strongly, but I just don't.

Yeah no kidding. As another female mustachian I've never been offended by someone using the term 'girl'.

There are a substantial number of adult women who don't mind being called "girls", however they tend to take an extremely childish approach to life. Mustachians, by contrast, take an adult approach to life. So the set of adult human females willing to tolerate being called "girl" contains few or no Mustachians. There's zero overlap. It's like looking for a mime at an auctioneer's convention.

I find this generalization to be more offensive than OP's use of "girls" in the context of his post.

Me too.

Louisville

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2015, 10:23:01 AM »
Brava, TGS, the essay you penned pretty much sums it up.

Even in the locker room, females who are consciously competing to win in sports and in life most often refer to each other as "ladies," not "girls." Maybe the trick is to find someone who seriously has it together without being intimidated by how seriously she has it together?

Or, put another way, are you confident enough to listen to her stated viewpoint and fully appreciate and respect what she has to say? If so, then bravo for you. If not, then maybe you should stick to metaphorical (egad not literal!) girls.

Note bolded.
I actually agree with with the main message in TSG's post, that one should not infantalize women. However, the choice to use the word "girl" in certain contexts just doesn't rate a full on rant. I was well into my 30's before I started thinking of myself as a "man", rather than a "guy". 

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2015, 10:29:33 AM »
While the male equivalent of "girls" can be "boys", it can also be "guys". Do the people who have a problem with casually using "girls" for young women also have a problem with using "guys" for young men? Because I've never heard anyone complain about the casual use of the latter. I'd only see an imbalance if someone referred to someone as a "girl" and then referred to a guy of the same age as a "man". It's all about perspective.

Indeed. That's basically what it comes down to. Generally, for reasons that can best be described as cultural, only the female version is considered a slur.

Which is the insult more commonly heard: being called a dog, or being called a bitch? Is it worse to be called a dick, or a pussy? Has anyone ever been effectively mocked by people saying that they "throw like a boy"? Generally, the masculine version of a word is considered empowering or complimentary when the feminine version, well, isn't.

I used "infant" instead of "boy" as an example of something that might be actually insulting to a male reader-- something that might actually push a button-- because I wanted something guaranteed to actually irritate or provoke all the male readers instead of just a few. The only time the word "boy" is considered insulting is if it's used to a man of African-American descent.

Interestingly, hardly anyone would consider an African-American man unreasonable for objecting to being called "boy", because it was a type of derogatory treatment common during slavery and the Jim Crow era. Judging by the majority of these posts, many people still don't believe that women have the same right as men do to object to being addressed in derogatory terms associated with the same kinds of systematic legal and medical inequality even though it's in the far more recent past.

If baby-talk and patronizing speech is universally acceptable, then what's good for the goose ought to be good for the gander as well. But somehow it isn't.

I have yet to see anyone try to sell a 4x4 truck with an ad campaign: "Take your fave bro out for brekkie or on vacay with these hot new wheels!"  Or maybe someone might show a bar scene with a bunch of lumberjacks relaxing over a cold brew, and the slogan: "This beer tastes mmm-good in your tummy!"

Jouer

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2015, 10:41:35 AM »
I agree that as a man, I don't get a say in what is derogatory to women. Having said that, I would never use the term "girl" as derogative.

Real question: what about the term "girlfriend"? (either to mean female significant other or as a female friend)

 

Kaspian

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2015, 10:44:36 AM »
Generally, adult women don't like being called "girls" any more than men like being called "infants". It's insulting....

Wow, WTF?  Where did all that come from?  If you have some pent up rage about a word, taking it out on MissionPossible's interesting post is hardly fair.  Don't even get me started on the vindictiveness of putting "closet pedophile" in there.  That shit is like sticking a flame thrower in an innocent guy's face and pulling the trigger.  Completely uncalled for and just plain don't do it.

Anyway, MissionPossible --> I hear ya!  And it's not an (ahem) women thing.  I almost don't have time anymore for people who want to skate through life being as boring and predictable as possible.  Dress from the Sears catalogue, buy your McMansion in a gated community, an SUV, a BMW, have 2.5 kids, try to get them into private school, put up the white picket fence, buy the same camper as your neighbours, make your living room look like HGTV, cook from Martha Stewart, sign your girls up for dance, your boys for soccer,  go on vacation to a 5* gated resort, get the same haircut as the others in the parents' association, don't leave that resort during your stay under any circumstance.  Have a boring, fucking boring, average life!  Yay!  ...Meanwhile, "What's that?  You're a beekeeper, your hobby is ziplining, and you dress like a superhero at conventions?  You're a person I want to know!!!"

 

Cookie78

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2015, 10:50:05 AM »
Generally, adult women don't like being called "girls" any more than men like being called "infants". It's insulting....

Wow, WTF?  Where did all that come from?  If you have some pent up rage about a word, taking it out on MissionPossible's interesting post is hardly fair.  Don't even get me started on the vindictiveness of putting "closet pedophile" in there.  That shit is like sticking a flame thrower in an innocent guy's face and pulling the trigger.  Completely uncalled for and just plain don't do it.

Anyway, MissionPossible --> I hear ya!  And it's not an (ahem) women thing.  I almost don't have time anymore for people who want to skate through life being as boring and predictable as possible.  Dress from the Sears catalogue, buy your McMansion in a gated community, an SUV, a BMW, have 2.5 kids, try to get them into private school, put up the white picket fence, buy the same camper as your neighbours, make your living room look like HGTV, cook from Martha Stewart, sign your girls up for dance, your boys for soccer,  go on vacation to a 5* gated resort, get the same haircut as the others in the parents' association, don't leave that resort during your stay under any circumstance.  Have a boring, fucking boring, average life!  Yay!  ...Meanwhile, "What's that?  You're a beekeeper, your hobby is ziplining, and you dress like a superhero at conventions?  You're a person I want to know!!!"

LOL, agreed! So much. Give me new/strange/different/out of the ordinary/interesting any day.

As for the dating thing, it's also hard to meet (enter your preferred socially acceptable non offensive male term here) for the same reasons stated by MissionPossible.

Sam E

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2015, 10:52:09 AM »
I agree that as a man, I don't get a say in what is derogatory to women. Having said that, I would never use the term "girl" as derogative.

Real question: what about the term "girlfriend"? (either to mean female significant other or as a female friend)

I think we should stick to the term "Female Relationship Partner" to avoid any unintended offense.

zephyr911

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2015, 10:52:14 AM »
The same topic came up with a good friend recently on FB and several others weighed in. While we didn't agree 100% in the end, all reasonable parties accepted that the appropriateness of the term "girl" for an adult female (as with many terms) is highly dependent on context. They also generally agreed that dogmatism on the subject was unproductive.

Erica/NWEdible

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2015, 10:52:40 AM »
Interestingly, hardly anyone would consider an African-American man unreasonable for objecting to being called "boy", because it was a type of derogatory treatment common during slavery and the Jim Crow era. Judging by the majority of these posts, many people still don't believe that women have the same right as men do to object to being addressed in derogatory terms associated with the same kinds of systematic legal and medical inequality even though it's in the far more recent past.
I'm disagreeing with your assertion that the term "girl" is broadly and universally derogatory, not challenging your right to object to its use. Now, if the OP had started his post by saying, "Some dumb skank I know bought an SUV she couldn't afford...typical fucking basic bitch amirite?" then everyone would agree with you that the OP had used derogatory and inappropriate language. So clearly reasonable people can see a range here, with context and intent being important. Just because I disagree with your assessment that "girl" is the equivalent to "n-word" doesn't mean I condone derogatory terms used against women.

Hey remember when those cops started gunning down white girls because they were hanging out in a park? Or that time that one middle age white woman tried to buy her son a pellet gun at Walmart and got shot in the back because she was so threatening? Oh you don't? Oh - well I guess I'll just reiterate my position that broadly comparing the subjugation of woman being called "girls" with the "systematic inequality" seen by black (men) feels inappropriate.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 10:57:32 AM by Erica/NWEdible »

tj

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2015, 10:53:44 AM »
This is the first I've heard of "girl" being derogatory. Actually a turn-off for me on dating sites is those women who want a "man, not a boy". They sound incredibly high maintenance. Yikes.

JLee

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2015, 10:56:04 AM »
Generally, adult women don't like being called "girls" any more than men like being called "infants". It's insulting. Anyone who persists in using the term is going to find it extremely difficult to get a date with an actual adult. Adults generally don't date people who come across as being either extremely patronizing, or a closet pedophile.
Based on the responses to your post, you may find some adult women find it insulting that you claim to speak for them.

Quote
It's true that the word "girl", and various other baby talk terms such as "tummy", "vacay", "fave", and "brekkie", are used a lot in Cosmopolitan and other magazines marketed exclusively to pre-adolescent females. It's also true that the N-word is used a lot in rap music. Devotees of both forms of media often use the derogatory terms to refer to each other, but it doesn't mean it's OK for outsiders to use the term.
Pre-adolescent is generally 10-13 years of age.  I didn't think that a magazine with a strong sex focus would be targeting elementary/middle school kids, so I checked:
Cosmopolitan is the most read womenís magazine in the world. Aimed at women aged 18 to 34; source http://www.bauer-media.com.au/brands/cosmopolitan/

Quote
You have the Constitutional right to try to pick up an African-American by affectionately using the N-word, or to continue trying to pick up adult women by using patronizing language. You're also within your rights to tie a 3-day-old dead fish around your neck every time you go to the club. But if you stay committed to a strategy that's guaranteed to present you in the worst possible light, please don't bitch to the rest of us about the fact your game isn't working.
I find a lot of of this post to be using patronizing language - well within your right, but it's not presenting a very good image to me either.

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There are a substantial number of adult women who don't mind being called "girls", however they tend to take an extremely childish approach to life. Mustachians, by contrast, take an adult approach to life. So the set of adult human females willing to tolerate being called "girl" contains few or no Mustachians. There's zero overlap. It's like looking for a mime at an auctioneer's convention.
An adult approach to life - such as considering others' viewpoints, fact-checking their arguments, and avoiding massive gender stereotypes? Ironic.

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If you're looking for a Mustachian woman, avoid women who tolerate being treated like children, or who express a desire for it. Start checking out women who insist on being treated like an adult. Expunge the word "girl" from your vocabulary and your online dating profiles, unless you are in fact talking about a pre-adolescent female. The word is a major turn-off to any woman who actually pays her own freight and wants to be treated like an adult. Your odds of finding some hot Mustachian action will be infinitely better than it is now. (Right now, sir, I fear your odds are zero.)
girl: a young or relatively young woman.
I just so happen to be dating a relatively young woman. She also happens to be mustachian. If I was dating someone who freaked out at the term "girl", that would be a huge red flag for me to move on with my life.

Quote
Now, in the specific case described by the OP, the female person who's pretending she was cosmically forced to buy the SUV is in fact a "girl", that is to say less than an adult. Adults take responsibility for their own decisions and run their own lives. She refuses to do that, so by definition she's less than an adult. I'm actually OK calling HER a "girl", provided we refer to a man of a similar age, in a similar situation, as a "boy". I propose that we start doing exactly that.
Speculating: you are attributing value to people based on their responsibility level, so when you hear a term that *to you* indicates a lack of age (and therefore a presumption of a lesser level of maturity, and therefore an assumption of a lack of responsibility), you are offended?

Perhaps some attribute value to people by the level of kindness and respect they show others, and to them a judgmental person such as yourself is "less than an adult."

Perception is funny that way.

This is the first I've heard of "girl" being derogatory. Actually a turn-off for me on dating sites is those women who want a "man, not a boy". They sound incredibly high maintenance. Yikes.
Yuuup.

pbkmaine

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Re: Life &quot;forces you into it&quot;.
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2015, 10:56:35 AM »
So, the girl thing. One of my high school classmates just got her 4th degree black belt. My comment was: "You go, girl!" Now I'm a little scared she's going to take it badly...

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Life &quot;forces you into it&quot;.
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2015, 10:59:48 AM »
So, the girl thing. One of my high school classmates just got her 4th degree black belt. My comment was: "You go, girl!" Now I'm a little scared she's going to take it badly...

Since you're not saying it to a complete stranger, you're probably perfectly safe.

zephyr911

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2015, 11:05:45 AM »
When she started talking about the new SUV purchase, she just said that life "forces you into it" - as in buying these sorts of things once you reach a certain age or point in your career, earnings etc. I just don't agree with that. Forcing you into it would be me holding a gun to your head and telling you to buy the SUV or that's all she wrote for you. You going out and buying it on your own accord because you succumbed to the pressure of keeping up with the Jones' is your own fault.
At a minimum, you'd think it'd be very easy to reject the "need" for anything that didn't even exist until 1-2 generations ago, since humanity lived thousands of generations before that without much trouble. But most people don't seem to get that.
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I think this is why I find the dating world so frustrating these days. It is extremely rare to find a girl out there who understands the idea behind this MMM style of living. It is so easy to go out and buy a new SUV, buy this and that, make it look like you have it all going on, meanwhile behind the scenes you really aren't doing that great at all.
I pulled it off by sheer dumb luck with a foreigner. I really don't meet them on the home front at all. The last girl (and I mean that... she was 40+ with 4 kids but emotionally still a child herself) pawned her car title to buy her kids Christmas presents. Previous experiences in the U.S. were only slightly better.
Quote
It is much harder to sacrifice, live beneath your means, fuck the Jones', and get ahead. But so very few do it. Apparently because life "forces you into it". Just a big copout I say.
If I'm reading right, your central frustration here is the lack of likeminded people in your life. Aren't you glad you found us here? :D

At a kickball game a few weeks ago, one girl mentioned that she had good retirement benefits at her job at the university, another girl said 'but you're way too young to be thinking about that...."
SO MUCH HEADDESK! This is why we end up with 50-somethings with five-figure net worth, wondering what the government is going to do for them when they retire. For all the effort expended trying to socialize the concept that earlier=better and compounding works wonders if you start early, too many people still think they can dance away their 20s and 30s before thinking about investing, when the day you enter the workforce is really the best day to start.

I guess I was just lucky to hear those Motley Fool ads during my senior year of college and start thinking about it then.

Goldielocks

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2015, 11:17:26 AM »
okay. Most of this post is accurate but overkill.
However this line made me laugh at the bald-faced truth of it.

So the set of adult human females willing to tolerate being called "girl" contains few or no Mustachians.

To wit.:

Imagine calling women's' soccer at FIFA girls soccer instead.

That would utterly subvert the excellent commitment to sport exhibited at the games this year. In fact, with less money sponsorship, the women's' games showed higher levels of professionalism and passion for the games than mens' soccer.  Fans were/ are excellent too.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 11:24:48 AM by goldielocks »

vivophoenix

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2015, 11:20:44 AM »
I had a conversation with a girl at work recently. She bought a new SUV for approx $40k. I'm not going to go through the effort of figuring out her payments but we can probably safely assume it's in the neighbourhood of $400+/mo.

She's a smart girl, but she is as stereotypical as it gets in terms of her path in life. Go to college, build up career, get married, have children. Very predictable. Not that there is anything wrong with that if that's what you want, but to me i've never been enamoured with the whole idea of that pre-chosen path in life.

When she started talking about the new SUV purchase, she just said that life "forces you into it" - as in buying these sorts of things once you reach a certain age or point in your career, earnings etc. I just don't agree with that. Forcing you into it would be me holding a gun to your head and telling you to buy the SUV or that's all she wrote for you. You going out and buying it on your own accord because you succumbed to the pressure of keeping up with the Jones' is your own fault.

I think this is why I find the dating world so frustrating these days. It is extremely rare to find a girl out there who understands the idea behind this MMM style of living. It is so easy to go out and buy a new SUV, buy this and that, make it look like you have it all going on, meanwhile behind the scenes you really aren't doing that great at all.

It is much harder to sacrifice, live beneath your means, fuck the Jones', and get ahead. But so very few do it. Apparently because life "forces you into it". Just a big copout I say.

there is so much more going on in the 'dating world',  that i find your view rather exaggerated. I do not thing that the main obstacle is being able to find someone who is a huge saver. when i am dating, it seems to me the type of person who either is bad with money, or values a smoke show has other personality flaws that are far more glaring before i even get to how they handle their finances.

i don't enjoy going shopping, i am not into fashion, or cars, and  after a point i prefer home cooked meals. I rarely watch television and enjoy activities with friends. dating someone with similar hobbies kinda self selects.

mm1970

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2015, 11:30:24 AM »
While the male equivalent of "girls" can be "boys", it can also be "guys". Do the people who have a problem with casually using "girls" for young women also have a problem with using "guys" for young men? Because I've never heard anyone complain about the casual use of the latter. I'd only see an imbalance if someone referred to someone as a "girl" and then referred to a guy of the same age as a "man". It's all about perspective.

There are a substantial number of adult women who don't mind being called "girls", however they tend to take an extremely childish approach to life. Mustachians, by contrast, take an adult approach to life. So the set of adult human females willing to tolerate being called "girl" contains few or no Mustachians. There's zero overlap. It's like looking for a mime at an auctioneer's convention.

I find this generalization to be more offensive than OP's use of "girls" in the context of his post.

By the way, I looked at your post history and found numerous uses of the word "guy". I propose you change them all to "man" so as not to appear so hypocritical.

Hmm, does anyone think the guy who joined the watch appreciation group would have been so readily accepted if he "liked" the product but didn't actually own one?

Jordan Weissmann at Slate just blasted this guy, and NYT too, for publishing such irresponsible nonsense.
"guys" and "gals"? (or "guys" and "guys")

zephyr911

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2015, 11:34:36 AM »
"guys" and "gals"? (or "guys" and "guys")
Dudes and chicks, even.

sixup

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2015, 11:44:40 AM »
You must not use the "g word" unless you are also a "g".

Get it right boys.

forummm

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2015, 11:46:02 AM »
This thread took a turn....

For a minute I was wondering if maybe I clicked on the wrong one.

Sam E

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2015, 11:46:13 AM »
Being a guy myself, all I can offer is my personal anecdotes of what I've observed around me, but in my experience both guys and girls call people "guys" and "girls," most especially when they're in the same age groups, and I've never seen someone take offense to this until now.

For context, I'm 25 and my peer group ranges from around age 23 to around age 30. Everyone I know (both male and female) uses "guy" for males around the same age and "girl" for females around the same age. It's less impersonal or formal than "man" and "woman," which I usually only hear used when there's a substantial positive age gap between the speaker and the subject. A 25 year old might call a 28 year old female coworker "a girl from work" whereas that 25 year old would call a 40 year old female coworker "a woman from work." It also seems more likely to refer to superiors as men and women while peers are referred to as guys and girls.

Again, I know this is just an anecdote from an outside perspective, but my personal experience is that this is common among my generation and age group.

zephyr911

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2015, 11:53:14 AM »
I guess bitches and motherfuckers are out of the question then, eh? :/

vivophoenix

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2015, 12:18:18 PM »
I guess bitches and motherfuckers are out of the question then, eh? :/

not true!
those arent sexist, just crass

CoreyTheMan

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2015, 12:19:50 PM »
This was such an interesting post until it got turned into this weird "girl", "guy", "boy" crap.

zephyr911

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2015, 12:24:10 PM »
This was such an interesting post until it got turned into this weird "girl", "guy", "boy" crap.
Relax, guy ;)

partgypsy

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2015, 12:27:37 PM »
I'm originally from Chicago, I'm used to calling everyone "guys" even the "girls". "Hey guys, what are we doing tonight?"


CitrusFruit

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2015, 12:33:14 PM »
Obviously the only proper response is a wide-spread sociopolitical campaign for the adoption of terms previously referring to horses.
Since these have not been used to address people in any way I'm aware of, these should be entirely neutral terms.

So children are now fillies and colts, and adults are mares and stallions.
Horses can take on those silly old laden human references.

Glad this was all sorted out.


PS: Don't lose your testicles, you'll become a gelding.

sleepyguy

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2015, 01:32:03 PM »
Reading these makes me super glad I got an amazing girl by my side.  I was the actual late convert to MMM lifestyle (although I would hardly say I'm MMM - drive too much, pay for too may services, etc, etc), and she's always been very efficient with money, time, life goals, etc... I was/am a "cruiser"... easy going and carefree I would say.

Some people just get 'hit' later in life or not at all... starring at car payments for 5+ yrs, a mortgage for 30yrs... and a job they liked at the start buy have grown old of.  Just a few paychecks away from foreclosure... you know a bunch of them, and I know a bunch of them.  Sadly it's not the minority.

GuitarStv

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2015, 01:45:16 PM »
I agree that as a man, I don't get a say in what is derogatory to women. Having said that, I would never use the term "girl" as derogative.

Real question: what about the term "girlfriend"? (either to mean female significant other or as a female friend)

I think we should stick to the term "Female Relationship Partner" to avoid any unintended offense.

FRP kinda sounds like the noise that you make when a fart starts to slip out in a quiet meeting and then is hurriedly clamped down on by the perpetrator.  I'm not sure it would be preferred to 'girlfriend'.

MissionPossible

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2015, 05:58:17 PM »
Thank you to the people who actually submitted a worthwhile reply.

I think my point is that it's just become so normal at least in North America to live a life of excess - To live far beyond your means, to make it look like you have cash flying out of your pockets when in fact you should be living a fairly modest lifestyle. Financial responsibility is an afterthought for most people these days.

tj

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2015, 06:02:04 PM »
Thank you to the people who actually submitted a worthwhile reply.

I think my point is that it's just become so normal at least in North America to live a life of excess - To live far beyond your means, to make it look like you have cash flying out of your pockets when in fact you should be living a fairly modest lifestyle. Financial responsibility is an afterthought for most people these days.

Well, the problem is - how are you going to find a bunch of peers who share your modest lifestyle? How often do modest people go out?

It's not that modest people don't exist, it's that modest people don't really have a common meeting place. You'll need to meet people through some other connection, and hope that some of them end up being modest.


MMMaybe

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2015, 07:46:37 PM »
I think the vast majority of people are caught up in this more more more consumerist spiral.

But I do meet the odd few who see through all of it/don't want it/grew out of it

I think certain activities tend to attract Mustachians more than others and they are those which do not give value to appearances. I am thinking of people who like to hike and my former pub quiz team as examples.

With regards to pub quiz, the most important thing is winning and your fancy car/house/job/perfect selfie/whatever cannot override a lack of brains. ;)

okits

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2015, 09:14:43 PM »

I think this is why I find the dating world so frustrating these days. It is extremely rare to find a girl out there who understands the idea behind this MMM style of living. It is so easy to go out and buy a new SUV, buy this and that, make it look like you have it all going on, meanwhile behind the scenes you really aren't doing that great at all.


OP, include your age and city in your forum profile (it shows up beside each comment you post) and consider posting in the Personals section of the forums (if you haven't already).  Organize or attend a Mustachian meet up in your area.  Heck, put in your signature that you're looking to make local, Mustachian friends.  You're looking for a like-minded partner, and like-minded people congregate in this community.

Regarding the inadvertent side discussion, I'm an adult female and prefer to be referred to as a woman or lady.  "Girl" sometimes has a dismissive quality to it; in some contexts it suggests that my work, ideas, and opinions don't need to be taken seriously.  If you didn't know that using that word could be thorny, now you do.

(Zephyr911 - I prefer "motherfucker" to "bitch" but probably need to piss people off more to earn application of either term.  :)

MissionPossible

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2015, 09:29:09 PM »
It's not a bad idea, perhaps once I hang out here a bit more I will try to put together a local meetup.

Cressida

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Re: Life "forces you into it".
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2015, 10:23:47 PM »
I'm not taking one side or the other here, but I'm just going to briefly comment that "X doesn't offend me, therefore it is not offensive" is not a coherent argument. Neither is "I've never heard of anyone being offended by X, therefore it is not offensive."