Roomba. Put it in a room, press the "go" button, let it do its thing. Cuts down hugely on cleaning time and our house is much cleaner for it. Costs $300 or so at Costco, so not a cheap purchase, but we needed a new vacuum anyways.
Paying a cleaner is the ultimate antimustachian outsourcing.
It either means your house is too big, you have too much stuff, or you just don't mind throwing money away.
I don't understand this, cleaning a house doesn't take that long. That said, I live in a 900 square foot condo and don't have any children or pets, so there's that. I think that the time spent finding someone to clean your house and getting them to do it would be more work than simply picking up a vacuum cleaner and doing it.
I don't understand this, cleaning a house doesn't take that long. That said, I live in a 900 square foot condo and don't have any children or pets, so there's that. I think that the time spent finding someone to clean your house and getting them to do it would be more work than simply picking up a vacuum cleaner and doing it.
There have been many discussions about house cleaning on this forum, and you will find lots of people that agree with that slogan. The main reason I've seen is that their per hour rate is higher, so they are "losing" money on cleaning their home or doing their own yard work. But by that logic, they should probably always eat out.Depends how far away the restaurants are, and if they would have to drive. If I can make dinner in less than the time it takes to drive there and back (plus the time to order and pay), eating out is a loser - even if gas is free, food is free, and I claim an infinite hourly wage - because it doesn't save time. ;)
There have been many discussions about house cleaning on this forum, and you will find lots of people that agree with that slogan. The main reason I've seen is that their per hour rate is higher, so they are "losing" money on cleaning their home or doing their own yard work. But by that logic, they should probably always eat out.Depends how far away the restaurants are, and if they would have to drive. If I can make dinner in less than the time it takes to drive there and back (plus the time to order and pay), eating out is a loser - even if gas is free, food is free, and I claim an infinite hourly wage - because it doesn't save time. ;)
/tangent
I'm not saying I disagree with it. Just that is is very antimustachian.
Like any new convert, many have to be fanatical because they don't know what to do, or not do, so they don't do it ALL, but the endgame to being a Mustachian is having developed a personal sense of cost vs reward.(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_D_Z-D2tzi14/TBpOnhVqyAI/AAAAAAAADFU/8tfM4E_Z4pU/s400/responsibility12(alternate).png)
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/06/this-is-why-ill-never-be-adult.html (http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/06/this-is-why-ill-never-be-adult.html)
Hey, house cleaning is probably cheaper than marriage counseling and certainly cheaper than divorce ;).After reading the divorce thread, I completely agree! http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/divorce-wmfd-(weapon-of-mass-financial-destruction)/ (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/divorce-wmfd-(weapon-of-mass-financial-destruction)/)
I'm pretty new to the forum, and one thing I want to comment on is the number of things I see about someone being "Mustachian" or "non-Mustachian" as if this is a cult or something.
I just see it as shorthand. "Mustachian" is much faster than typing out "reflective of making spending choices that align properly with one's individual values paradigm" every single time. And the fact that the paradigm is personal and individual is part of the definition, I don't see the need to spell it out every time. *shrug*
Paying a cleaner is the ultimate antimustachian outsourcing.
It either means your house is too big, you have too much stuff, or you just don't mind throwing money away.
Isn't the entire point of mustachianism to spend your only fixed resource (time) exactly how you want?
I'm pretty new to the forum, and one thing I want to comment on is the number of things I see about someone being "Mustachian" or "non-Mustachian" as if this is a cult or something.
I just see it as shorthand. "Mustachian" is much faster than typing out "reflective of making spending choices that align properly with one's individual values paradigm" every single time. And the fact that the paradigm is personal and individual is part of the definition, I don't see the need to spell it out every time. *shrug*
It is anti-mustachian of me but I have someone clean our house every two weeks and wouldn't go back unless circumstances dramatically changed. I used to spend one full day of my weekend cleaning, grocery shopping, and folding laundry while my husband was off playing an ultimate frisbee pick-up game. I realized though that I was spending my previous FREE TIME doing something I hated and the resentment was building up because my husband was out playing. In the many years we have been together the house cleaning topic has been an intractable source of contention between us. We have different tolerances of mess and different definitions of "clean". He doesn't want to do as much work as it takes to get to my level; I am unwilling to live in a messy house and get frustrated when I am doing more than half of the work. The compromise that has saved us hours of fighting is just outsourcing.
Now that we have a baby and there are suddenly fewer hours in the day, I want every precious moment I can spend with my little girl and am even less interested in scrubbing the bathroom. Insult away but thankfully we are blessed to have enough money to make these kinds of choices and still make progress towards our FIRE goal. :)
Actually, no. There is absolutely nothing badass in hiring a cleaner. Unless you yourself are that cleaner and have agreed to be paid to help clean out a neighbour's garage or something.
Try reading "Nickel and Dimed" and you'll see that cleaning services are a massive ripoff. They don't do what is necessary to really truly sanitize houses. They just make things look good on the surface.
Try reading "Nickel and Dimed" and you'll see that cleaning services are a massive ripoff. They don't do what is necessary to really truly sanitize houses. They just make things look good on the surface.
Isn't that what everyone expects?
Homeowners don't sanitize either...not that I want to live in a germ free house.
Try reading "Nickel and Dimed" and you'll see that cleaning services are a massive ripoff. They don't do what is necessary to really truly sanitize houses. They just make things look good on the surface.
Isn't that what everyone expects?
Homeowners don't sanitize either...not that I want to live in a germ free house.
Actually, no. There is absolutely nothing badass in hiring a cleaner. Unless you yourself are that cleaner and have agreed to be paid to help clean out a neighbour's garage or something.
You're entitled to your opinion, but you just stated a view instead of refuting the points I made.
Actually, no. There is absolutely nothing badass in hiring a cleaner. Unless you yourself are that cleaner and have agreed to be paid to help clean out a neighbour's garage or something.
You're entitled to your opinion, but you just stated a view instead of refuting the points I made.
http://www.davidpakman.com/mister-money-mustache/ (http://www.davidpakman.com/mister-money-mustache/)
You can skip ahead to the part where he says the hard way is the better way. Your definition of "making the best choices to service my priority of getting to FI" is wrong too. Most of the ideas here are about DIY, not wasting planetary resources, and being healthy by doing the physical work yourself. Badassity is most important. FI is probably the second priority. If you doubt that, you listen to this podcast:
http://podcast.farnoosh.tv/2015/02/mrmoneymustache/ (http://podcast.farnoosh.tv/2015/02/mrmoneymustache/)
http://www.davidpakman.com/mister-money-mustache/ (http://www.davidpakman.com/mister-money-mustache/)
You can skip ahead to the part where he says the hard way is the better way. Your definition of "making the best choices to service my priority of getting to FI" is wrong too. Most of the ideas here are about DIY, not wasting planetary resources, and being healthy by doing the physical work yourself. Badassity is most important. FI is probably the second priority. If you doubt that, you listen to this podcast:
http://podcast.farnoosh.tv/2015/02/mrmoneymustache/ (http://podcast.farnoosh.tv/2015/02/mrmoneymustache/)
Actually, no. There is absolutely nothing badass in hiring a cleaner. Unless you yourself are that cleaner and have agreed to be paid to help clean out a neighbour's garage or something.
You're entitled to your opinion, but you just stated a view instead of refuting the points I made.
http://www.davidpakman.com/mister-money-mustache/ (http://www.davidpakman.com/mister-money-mustache/)
You can skip ahead to the part where he says the hard way is the better way. Your definition of "making the best choices to service my priority of getting to FI" is wrong too. Most of the ideas here are about DIY, not wasting planetary resources, and being healthy by doing the physical work yourself. Badassity is most important. FI is probably the second priority. If you doubt that, you listen to this podcast:
http://podcast.farnoosh.tv/2015/02/mrmoneymustache/ (http://podcast.farnoosh.tv/2015/02/mrmoneymustache/)
Spending 4 hours a week doing chores is not something I value at all, and those 4 hours of free time are much more valuable than the monetary penalty for outsourcing (to me).
Are you pro-hire-a-housecleaner people still going on? Listen, I get it--you don't want to clean your house and don't like doing it one bit. Fine, whatever--it's nobody else's business. But don't tell fibs to yourself justifying and promoting it as somehow Mustachian and in-line with the ideas commonly shared on this blog. It's not. Any more than hiring a chauffeur or getting a personal shave by a barber every morning like the old time gangsters did.
"Domestic Outsourcing: Practical or Wussypants?"
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/)
Answer: Wussypants.
Are you pro-hire-a-housecleaner people still going on? Listen, I get it--you don't want to clean your house and don't like doing it one bit. Fine, whatever--it's nobody else's business. But don't tell fibs to yourself justifying and promoting it as somehow Mustachian and in-line with the ideas commonly shared on this blog. It's not. Any more than hiring a chauffeur or getting a personal shave by a barber every morning like the old time gangsters did.
"Domestic Outsourcing: Practical or Wussypants?"
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/)
Answer: Wussypants.
Are you pro-hire-a-housecleaner people still going on?
Are you pro-hire-a-housecleaner people still going on? Listen, I get it--you don't want to clean your house and don't like doing it one bit. Fine, whatever--it's nobody else's business. But don't tell fibs to yourself justifying and promoting it as somehow Mustachian and in-line with the ideas commonly shared on this blog. It's not. Any more than hiring a chauffeur or getting a personal shave by a barber every morning like the old time gangsters did.
"Domestic Outsourcing: Practical or Wussypants?"
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/)
Answer: Wussypants.
If the chainsaw slips, I might lose a limb or die.
If the chainsaw slips, I might lose a limb or die.
This just happened to my FIL 3 months ago. He managed to push the chainsaw away but he landed pretty hard. Broke his neck. Luckily they managed to piece it together with some kind of high-tech glue or something.
I will be honest that we outsource a considerable amount of home improvement that MMM would scoff at....
...But YMMV. I tend to agree with you that no one really cares if people hire people to clean their dust balls. But don't describe it as Mustachian.
Exactly!! I waste ridiculous amounts of money on personal travel. More than facepunch-worthy, actually. I'd say, facepunch-with-brass-knuckles worthy. But I'm not going to come here and tell you folks some total bullshit like, "Well, my travel to Europe is Mustachian and in line with FIRE because it allows me to relax, open my mind, and learn which lets me be more productive in my job." ...Because that's bullshit. People come here to learn things and I'd be doing a disservice by promoting and justifying my wasteful habits as part of the main message and its principles.
I paid $1500 to have 2 trees removed last summer. After watching the guys climb a spruce tree in the 35C heat and bring it down bit by bit without hitting my house, I gladly signed the cheque. There is no way I'd ever want to do that!
I paid $1500 to have 2 trees removed last summer. After watching the guys climb a spruce tree in the 35C heat and bring it down bit by bit without hitting my house, I gladly signed the cheque. There is no way I'd ever want to do that!
Removing a tree is not something I'd do myself.
I was lucky that when we had a dead tree that had to come down I found an acquaintance who was willing to do it for a barter. I gave him a collection of childhood magazines for his granddaughter. I'm sometimes a little sad I don't have them anymore- but really, they were clutter.
We did have to deal with cutting up the tree and putting it out for waste collecting, but we did that alternating between a jigsaw and just breaking branches.
We didn't grind the stump, but then we moved, so that's their problem now. The roots weren't getting into anything though- it was more of an issue of tall dead tree that could have fallen.
This is the point we're trying to make. I don't know why maid time = bad but personal travel = good in your mind. Why do you get to decide which are viable luxury expenses?
I see your point now, it makes a lot more sense. I agree. No financial independence comes quickly outside of startups and the lottery, so I guess i see MMM as more of a jog/marathon. For people who want to sprint, I think ERE makes sense.
Are you pro-hire-a-housecleaner people still going on? Listen, I get it--you don't want to clean your house and don't like doing it one bit. Fine, whatever--it's nobody else's business. But don't tell fibs to yourself justifying and promoting it as somehow Mustachian and in-line with the ideas commonly shared on this blog. It's not. Any more than hiring a chauffeur or getting a personal shave by a barber every morning like the old time gangsters did.
"Domestic Outsourcing: Practical or Wussypants?"
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/)
Answer: Wussypants.
Again, MMM blows 200+ a month, 2400 a year, on a CrossFit membership for his wife. Isn't that the definition of outsourcing? I find this an utterly ridiculous expense personally, but understand how it fits within the tenets of his philosophy and respect the choice.
You miss the greater, massively liberating point of this website if you really think you have to follow his articles to the letter. The theme of maximizing utility matters, not exactly what he does versus what you do. That's the most mustachian thing of all- maximizing what you get out of life. If saving 80 a month does that for you, great. For me I'd rather have the 4 hours a month. Calling one mustachian and one not is antithetical to the website.
The argument that doesn't work for me usually goes something like, "well I make $70 per hour at my job, so it makes fiscal sense for me to hire a housekeeper at $20 per hour rather than waste my own $70 per hour time doing it." My argument is that it's only $70 per hour time if you would actually have spent it at work. Your time isn't more fiscally valuable than the cleaning person's, if you're sitting on the couch.
yes, that's about what I was getting at. Obviously someone can choose to enjoy an hour off rather than spend it cleaning house and view that as a better use of their time, that's what the freedom of FI is all about, choices. And obviously if you suck at housekeeping, it may be worth it to pay someone else because your own result won't please you. But to justify it from a financial standpoint only cuts mustard if the more lucrative opportunity actually exists.
Now, if I can't find a client who will pay me for my hour, then in reality, the value of my time plummets to $0. At that point, I may choose to clean my own toilet.
Years ago when I was single I found a nice Asian girl for a roommate. I figured she would be neat, orderly, and keep the common areas clean. Was I ever mistaken. She was a bigger slob than I was. The apartment was a terrible mess. We vacuumed once before a Christmas party and never again. I think I may have cleaned my bathroom that time too. The kitchen was an absolute disaster. Finally, after nearly three years we decided that we had to do something. It was just too terrible.
So we moved.
Thinking back that was a great move. We saved lots of time by not cleaning. And we saved money by not hiring a maid. Ultimately we had to pay a couple of guys with a truck to move us but that was a minor expense and inconvenience.
He also fell asleep on the couch and woke up with a very large dead mouse under him (luckily that fixed the problem where everything in the cabinets [food, paper plates, etc.] got mouse poop all over it) and never did laundry - he'd pick something up out of the pile on the floor and febreeze it.
He also fell asleep on the couch and woke up with a very large dead mouse under him (luckily that fixed the problem where everything in the cabinets [food, paper plates, etc.] got mouse poop all over it) and never did laundry - he'd pick something up out of the pile on the floor and febreeze it.
So you're saying you stole your username from him?
And obviously if you suck at housekeeping, it may be worth it to pay someone else because your own result won't please you.
No offense, but you sound like someone who doesn't have to clean their own house. It's not always as easy as it sounds.And obviously if you suck at housekeeping, it may be worth it to pay someone else because your own result won't please you.
Holy crap! I never want to know a person who's that much of a tight-ass. "I don't live up to my own standards, dammit!!"
Though this attitude sort of makes sense with things like drywalling, dentistry, and car construction, I'm just imagining somebody going "Fuckin' hell, my back and belly are just not clean enough!! Not up to snuff at all. I need to hire somebody to soap me up properly." :)
Haha. My college roommate never did anything. One day I decided I wasn't doing the damn dishes this time. They sat for 6 months before getting thrown out.
No offense, but you sound like someone who doesn't have to clean their own house. It's not always as easy as it sounds.
Hey, house cleaning is probably cheaper than marriage counseling and certainly cheaper than divorce ;).
Years ago when I was single I found a nice Asian girl for a roommate. I figured she would be neat, orderly, and keep the common areas clean. Was I ever mistaken. She was a bigger slob than I was.
I spent a summer cleaning houses. The woman I worked for took pride in her work and I did a good job as well. We would never have used the same cleaning materials in the bathroom as in the dining room, we definitely did not use the same 2 cloths on everything and neither did anyone else who worked for her. I actually started using some of the products and methods I used with her on my own house. Cleaning services are like any other, they aren't all the same; there are good and bad ones.Try reading "Nickel and Dimed" and you'll see that cleaning services are a massive ripoff. They don't do what is necessary to really truly sanitize houses. They just make things look good on the surface.
Isn't that what everyone expects?
Homeowners don't sanitize either...not that I want to live in a germ free house.
They don't even clean moderately well, at the direction of the company. For example, their cleaning method is to wipe everything with either a damp cloth or a dry cloth. They use the same 2 cloths on everything, instead of getting a clean cloth after wiping something dirty.
They clean the floor with a half-bucket of water, and they don't change the water. So the last part of the floor is getting scrubbed with dirty water.
This is all described in Nickel and Dimed. Barbara Ehrenreich worked for one of these services herself. The goal is not to clean the house, but to create the appearance that it has been cleaned. This is the company policy, not just laziness on the workers' part.
I'm no great housekeeper, but I darn well don't wipe the dining-room table with the same cloth I used to wipe the bathroom walls. And after I clean the floor, a paper towel used to mop up spilled water will not come up brown.