Author Topic: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)  (Read 32865 times)


TheGrimSqueaker

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I would respond by threatening to place a large penis sculpture in my front yard if the note-dropper didn't own up within 3 days. Then, after 3 days, I'd find or create such a sculpture regardless of whether the culprit was found. There are chainsaw artists in town who could easily be persuaded to work for a commission, and I also know where I can find a sizable 100-150 kilogram log.

KodeBlue

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"Screw you."

wevan

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I would respond by threatening to place a large penis sculpture in my front yard if the note-dropper didn't own up within 3 days. Then, after 3 days, I'd find or create such a sculpture regardless of whether the culprit was found. There are chainsaw artists in town who could easily be persuaded to work for a commission, and I also know where I can find a sizable 100-150 kilogram log.
Eh, that might fall afoul of public obscenity laws.  I'd suggest a large middle finger instead.

BlueHouse

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I would respond by threatening to place a large penis sculpture in my front yard if the note-dropper didn't own up within 3 days. Then, after 3 days, I'd find or create such a sculpture regardless of whether the culprit was found. There are chainsaw artists in town who could easily be persuaded to work for a commission, and I also know where I can find a sizable 100-150 kilogram log.
Omg grim squeaker, i fucking LOVE YOU!  Thank you for making my day! 

Paul der Krake

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Having all of one's net worth tied up in a single house brings out the worst in people.

KiwiSonya

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This place is very near where I live. Not known for it's diversity and tolerance. Called Whitby but often nicknamed 'Whiteby' or 'Shitby'.  It's that pocket of sparkly new McMansions uncomfortably close to an cold suburb where poor people live. I love the penis statue idea. I was thinking a few old rusty car bodies on the lawn just to raise the bloodpressure of the neighbourhood.

LeRainDrop

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Wow, it sounds like there's a real busybody living in that neighborhood!  If the note-writer wants to buy me a new car, okay, sounds great; otherwise, F off!

gimp

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Cinder blocks: $5 each

Non-running cars: $150 each

Putting ten cars up on blocks in your front lawn to piss off whoever wrote the note: priceless

TheGrimSqueaker

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I would respond by threatening to place a large penis sculpture in my front yard if the note-dropper didn't own up within 3 days. Then, after 3 days, I'd find or create such a sculpture regardless of whether the culprit was found. There are chainsaw artists in town who could easily be persuaded to work for a commission, and I also know where I can find a sizable 100-150 kilogram log.
Eh, that might fall afoul of public obscenity laws.  I'd suggest a large middle finger instead.

It might depend on the jurisdiction. But if the Venus de Milo is art, and Michelangelo's statue of David is art, who's to say that a recently erected (pardon the pun) chainsaw sculpture cannot also be art?

MishMash

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I was at an estate sale last weekend, old salty long tabber Nam vet.  Walk in the front door and hanging there was a framed note from his HOA.  Amongst the complaints was that he allowed a local Indian couple to sell their wares on his lawn at a yardsale (we don't like THOSE people here), that his dehumidifier hummed too loud, and that he needs to stop cleaning his guns in the BACK yard (which was fenced).  He had written FU over it in red pen, matted it, and hung it in a decorative frame so that it was the first thing you saw when you walked in the door.  I REALLY wish I had met that guy while he was alive, I totally would have given him a high five.

dandarc

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I'd suggest a large middle finger instead.
The world needs another one of these.  My biggest regret from our brief time in Milan was not getting to see this statue in person.

MoneyCat

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I have two neighbors on my street who have cars they have just let sit out at the curb for over a year. One is an old Ford Mustang with a damaged front end that they threw a tarp over. The other is an SUV with flat tires.

You know why I haven't complained to either of them about it? Because I mind my own damn business just like anybody else in their right mind. And they aren't bad people. One of those neighbors kindly clears our sidewalk for us in the winter because we don't own a snowblower.

solon

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Reminds me a lot of this video I just saw. A Lyft passenger was "offended" by a Hawaiian hula bobblehead on the driver's dash. She got into an argument with him and everything.

https://youtu.be/MMT3vuSQk3g

Some people seem determined to find something to be offended about. We do not have an obligation to such people.

SunshineAZ

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Funny bit about being offended  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo

Kitsune

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I was at an estate sale last weekend, old salty long tabber Nam vet.  Walk in the front door and hanging there was a framed note from his HOA.  Amongst the complaints was that he allowed a local Indian couple to sell their wares on his lawn at a yardsale (we don't like THOSE people here), that his dehumidifier hummed too loud, and that he needs to stop cleaning his guns in the BACK yard (which was fenced).  He had written FU over it in red pen, matted it, and hung it in a decorative frame so that it was the first thing you saw when you walked in the door.  I REALLY wish I had met that guy while he was alive, I totally would have given him a high five.

I like this guy.

BTDretire

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I have just a little bit of sympathy.
 Years ago my next door neighbor tore up his concrete driveway and to pour a new one.
The concrete got piled in the front yard, and then he had this artistic flash.
He dug a swimmimg pool size hole in the middle of his front yard, and had a plan to line the inside
of the hole with tiered sections of concrete as a landscaping beautification.
(Where is the sarcasm imoje when you need it.)
The concrete sat stacked in the front yard for at least two years with no progess.
I decided to sell my house, not because of the neighbors mess.
 Every person I showed the house to ask about the neighbors pile of concrete
and the big hole in the yard. I'm finally did sell the house, but it did cost me to have such
a mess next door.
  I'm now in a different state in a great neighborhood, oh,
except for the meth heads across the street
and the herion dealer next door. \_(ツ)_/
Not so bad, the herion dealer got caught, 4 years in jail.
Neither of these were here 22 years ago when I moved in.
 Now if they would just mow their lawns more often.



 

SeaEhm

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I always chuckle when I hear people complain about HOAs.

I gladly pay my HOA fee every month for the peace of mind that they will bother my neighbor for any of the following:
Parking outside of a driveway or in front of their house (I don't want neighbors parking on lawns or having boats in their driveway)
Yard that looks terrible
House color that I don't approve of (neighbor wanted to paint their house so they have to come to me to sign off on their color choice before submitting it to the HOA)
Yard sculptures that are an eye sore (one neighborhood without an HOA has a huge rusted statute that is not artistically placed in a yard)

There is a neighbor that has had a car parked in the driveway without being moved for months and even that bothers me.  At least drive it so the cobwebs are gone.

MilesTeg

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I always chuckle when I hear people complain about HOAs.

I gladly pay my HOA fee every month for the peace of mind that they will bother my neighbor for any of the following:
Parking outside of a driveway or in front of their house (I don't want neighbors parking on lawns or having boats in their driveway)
Yard that looks terrible
House color that I don't approve of (neighbor wanted to paint their house so they have to come to me to sign off on their color choice before submitting it to the HOA)
Yard sculptures that are an eye sore (one neighborhood without an HOA has a huge rusted statute that is not artistically placed in a yard)

There is a neighbor that has had a car parked in the driveway without being moved for months and even that bothers me.  At least drive it so the cobwebs are gone.

I always 'chuckle' at people who think they have some inherent right to tell other people what to do with their property. I'd have no issue with HOAs though if they were truly optional, but in many municipalities they are mandatory for all new development.

UKMustache

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2016, 01:07:18 AM »
I always chuckle when I hear people complain about HOAs.

I gladly pay my HOA fee every month for the peace of mind that they will bother my neighbor for any of the following:
Parking outside of a driveway or in front of their house (I don't want neighbors parking on lawns or having boats in their driveway)
Yard that looks terrible
House color that I don't approve of (neighbor wanted to paint their house so they have to come to me to sign off on their color choice before submitting it to the HOA)
Yard sculptures that are an eye sore (one neighborhood without an HOA has a huge rusted statute that is not artistically placed in a yard)

There is a neighbor that has had a car parked in the driveway without being moved for months and even that bothers me.  At least drive it so the cobwebs are gone.

Are you serious? 

You pay money every month because you are worried about someone putting a boat on their driveway or parking in the street?

That's a real first world problem.  I recommend an immediate dose of reality check. 
There are people in this world with real problems, go and ask a cancer patient if they care what colour their neighbours house is.  Absolutely ridiculous.

NESailor

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2016, 06:54:22 AM »
I always chuckle when I hear people complain about HOAs.

I gladly pay my HOA fee every month for the peace of mind that they will bother my neighbor for any of the following:
Parking outside of a driveway or in front of their house (I don't want neighbors parking on lawns or having boats in their driveway)
Yard that looks terrible
House color that I don't approve of (neighbor wanted to paint their house so they have to come to me to sign off on their color choice before submitting it to the HOA)
Yard sculptures that are an eye sore (one neighborhood without an HOA has a huge rusted statute that is not artistically placed in a yard)

There is a neighbor that has had a car parked in the driveway without being moved for months and even that bothers me.  At least drive it so the cobwebs are gone.

Hahaha, that's pretty much the reason I'd also never consider a development with an HOA.  We bought a sizeable property (2.1 acres) with a fixxer upper 1950s house and a separate 2 story barn built in the 80s in a pretty nice neighborhood near a large lake in NY.  We saw it as a diamond in the rough and much like a diamond, it's taking a long time to get the "rough" out of it.  At random times throughout the year we may have a giant pile of brush and trees piled high waiting for a good day for me to burn it all.  Big piles of rocks or dirt or sand from "in progress" landscaping improvements.  Boats on stands in the driveway being worked on (sometimes for weeks) and other boats parked on the property (since I'll babysit my friends' boats too given this much space).  I know (or hope, rather) that one day our property will get fully cleaned up and shine but for now it's definitely NOT in the same league as the manicured homes of some of my neighbors.  I'm glad they can't force me to do anything about it :D

Chris22

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2016, 07:44:27 AM »
I always chuckle when I hear people complain about HOAs.

I gladly pay my HOA fee every month for the peace of mind that they will bother my neighbor for any of the following:
Parking outside of a driveway or in front of their house (I don't want neighbors parking on lawns or having boats in their driveway)
Yard that looks terrible
House color that I don't approve of (neighbor wanted to paint their house so they have to come to me to sign off on their color choice before submitting it to the HOA)
Yard sculptures that are an eye sore (one neighborhood without an HOA has a huge rusted statute that is not artistically placed in a yard)

There is a neighbor that has had a car parked in the driveway without being moved for months and even that bothers me.  At least drive it so the cobwebs are gone.

I also love HOAs because it keeps all the control freaks in one area and frees the rest of us who don't desire to lord over each others' property to do what we like with our own stuff.

Dicey

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2016, 07:47:45 AM »
I always chuckle when I hear people complain about HOAs.

Hahaha, that's pretty much the reason I'd also never consider a development with an HOA.  We bought a sizeable property (2.1 acres) with a fixxer upper 1950s house and a separate 2 story barn built in the 80s in a pretty nice neighborhood near a large lake in NY.  We saw it as a diamond in the rough and much like a diamond, it's taking a long time to get the "rough" out of it.  At random times throughout the year we may have a giant pile of brush and trees piled high waiting for a good day for me to burn it all.  Big piles of rocks or dirt or sand from "in progress" landscaping improvements.  Boats on stands in the driveway being worked on (sometimes for weeks) and other boats parked on the property (since I'll babysit my friends' boats too given this much space).  I know (or hope, rather) that one day our property will get fully cleaned up and shine but for now it's definitely NOT in the same league as the manicured homes of some of my neighbors.  I'm glad they can't force me to do anything about it :D
Yeah, but once you get your diamond all polished, are you going to care about what your neighbor's properties look like then? If you decide to sell, will you clean it up so you can get "top dollar"?

Re: HOAs, what gets me the most is whether you own or rent,  you knew there was a HOA when you moved in. Nobody forces anyone to buy into an HOA. Therefore, people who did and then complain just don't seem very smart. Further, everyone who complains without having read their CC&Rs, or attended  a board meeting should just stop their damn whining. Better still, sell up and move. Sure, it's a free country, but you voluntarily agreed to the restrictions when you signed the documents before you moved in. What? You didn't bother to read and understand them? Tough luck, Charlie.

Kitsune

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2016, 07:51:39 AM »
I always chuckle when I hear people complain about HOAs.

I gladly pay my HOA fee every month for the peace of mind that they will bother my neighbor for any of the following:
Parking outside of a driveway or in front of their house (I don't want neighbors parking on lawns or having boats in their driveway)
Yard that looks terrible
House color that I don't approve of (neighbor wanted to paint their house so they have to come to me to sign off on their color choice before submitting it to the HOA)
Yard sculptures that are an eye sore (one neighborhood without an HOA has a huge rusted statute that is not artistically placed in a yard)

There is a neighbor that has had a car parked in the driveway without being moved for months and even that bothers me.  At least drive it so the cobwebs are gone.

Hahaha, that's pretty much the reason I'd also never consider a development with an HOA.  We bought a sizeable property (2.1 acres) with a fixxer upper 1950s house and a separate 2 story barn built in the 80s in a pretty nice neighborhood near a large lake in NY.  We saw it as a diamond in the rough and much like a diamond, it's taking a long time to get the "rough" out of it.  At random times throughout the year we may have a giant pile of brush and trees piled high waiting for a good day for me to burn it all.  Big piles of rocks or dirt or sand from "in progress" landscaping improvements.  Boats on stands in the driveway being worked on (sometimes for weeks) and other boats parked on the property (since I'll babysit my friends' boats too given this much space).  I know (or hope, rather) that one day our property will get fully cleaned up and shine but for now it's definitely NOT in the same league as the manicured homes of some of my neighbors.  I'm glad they can't force me to do anything about it :D

This. We've got about 1/4 of a dump truck load of topsoil still on the side of our driveway waiting for the end of one project (finished last weeked) so that we can truck it to the back of the house via wheelbarrow. It's been there since spring. Who cares? Not our neighbors.

Similarly, our house is a nice pale green, and we like it. Our neighbors have wood clapboard, painted (currently) a darker green. And sure, they could paint it hot pink next - 'cause it's their damned house, and it ain't mine. If it bothers me, I'll plant some trees and bushes and hide the view and then look the other way. WTF. Their house ain't mine, why the hell would I get a say.

Jrr85

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2016, 07:52:29 AM »
I always chuckle when I hear people complain about HOAs.

I gladly pay my HOA fee every month for the peace of mind that they will bother my neighbor for any of the following:
Parking outside of a driveway or in front of their house (I don't want neighbors parking on lawns or having boats in their driveway)
Yard that looks terrible
House color that I don't approve of (neighbor wanted to paint their house so they have to come to me to sign off on their color choice before submitting it to the HOA)
Yard sculptures that are an eye sore (one neighborhood without an HOA has a huge rusted statute that is not artistically placed in a yard)

There is a neighbor that has had a car parked in the driveway without being moved for months and even that bothers me.  At least drive it so the cobwebs are gone.

I always 'chuckle' at people who think they have some inherent right to tell other people what to do with their property. I'd have no issue with HOAs though if they were truly optional, but in many municipalities they are mandatory for all new development.

You realize the fact that he is talking about liking living in an HOA neighborhood means he clearly recognizes he doesn't have an inherent right to tell other people what to do with their property?  It's a mutual thing.  You give up some autonomy in exchange for assurance that the neighborhood will more or less be what you consider attractive and desirable. 

I live in an extremely small subdivision with an HOA that doesn't enforce any of the covenants.  We are luckily small enough that if you have a problem, you can just talk about it with your neighbor.  There are a few blatant violations that nobody is crazy about, but people don't say anything because everybody is pretty much a good neighbor and every house is more or less maintained in a way that doesn't negatively impact other people's property values.  But it's nice to know that if we ended up with a neighbor that wanted to put up a rusty sculpture of a combined penis and middle finger, we wouldn't have to just live with it.

I'm not familiar with municipalities making HOA's mandatory for new developments.  That seems odd, although it wouldn't be a problem as long as HOA restrictions have to be filed (as they are in our jurisdiction).  The idea of simply being able to file the existence of an HOA and then the HOA being able to impose new requirements after the property is purchased simply by majority vote seems like a terrible idea.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 07:55:26 AM by Jrr85 »

Miss Piggy

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2016, 08:17:27 AM »
I always chuckle when I hear people complain about HOAs.

I gladly pay my HOA fee every month for the peace of mind that they will bother my neighbor for any of the following:
Parking outside of a driveway or in front of their house (I don't want neighbors parking on lawns or having boats in their driveway)
Yard that looks terrible
House color that I don't approve of (neighbor wanted to paint their house so they have to come to me to sign off on their color choice before submitting it to the HOA)
Yard sculptures that are an eye sore (one neighborhood without an HOA has a huge rusted statute that is not artistically placed in a yard)

There is a neighbor that has had a car parked in the driveway without being moved for months and even that bothers me.  At least drive it so the cobwebs are gone.

Are you serious? 

You pay money every month because you are worried about someone putting a boat on their driveway or parking in the street?

That's a real first world problem.  I recommend an immediate dose of reality check. 
There are people in this world with real problems, go and ask a cancer patient if they care what colour their neighbours house is.  Absolutely ridiculous.

I happen to be one of those "control freaks" who strongly agrees with SeaEhm on this. I don't want to feel like I live in a trailer park with no standards.

And for the record, I've been that cancer patient, and yes, I still cared what color my neighbor's house was and how much crap they had in their yard.

To each his/her own. We all care about different things.

dandarc

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2016, 08:23:11 AM »
I'd have no issue with HOAs though if they were truly optional, but in many municipalities they are mandatory for all new development.
Ours is fully voluntary.  But this association isn't about keeping up appearances of individual properties - it does things like sponsor potlucks and 5Ks in the neighborhood and sends a newsletter.  Biggest project I'm aware of has been putting up signs welcoming folks to the neighborhood.  Donation of $10 / year gets you into the association, $5 / year if you've lived here 20 years or more.

Chris22

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2016, 08:31:24 AM »
I always chuckle when I hear people complain about HOAs.

Hahaha, that's pretty much the reason I'd also never consider a development with an HOA.  We bought a sizeable property (2.1 acres) with a fixxer upper 1950s house and a separate 2 story barn built in the 80s in a pretty nice neighborhood near a large lake in NY.  We saw it as a diamond in the rough and much like a diamond, it's taking a long time to get the "rough" out of it.  At random times throughout the year we may have a giant pile of brush and trees piled high waiting for a good day for me to burn it all.  Big piles of rocks or dirt or sand from "in progress" landscaping improvements.  Boats on stands in the driveway being worked on (sometimes for weeks) and other boats parked on the property (since I'll babysit my friends' boats too given this much space).  I know (or hope, rather) that one day our property will get fully cleaned up and shine but for now it's definitely NOT in the same league as the manicured homes of some of my neighbors.  I'm glad they can't force me to do anything about it :D
Yeah, but once you get your diamond all polished, are you going to care about what your neighbor's properties look like then? If you decide to sell, will you clean it up so you can get "top dollar"?

Re: HOAs, what gets me the most is whether you own or rent,  you knew there was a HOA when you moved in. Nobody forces anyone to buy into an HOA. Therefore, people who did and then complain just don't seem very smart. Further, everyone who complains without having read their CC&Rs, or attended  a board meeting should just stop their damn whining. Better still, sell up and move. Sure, it's a free country, but you voluntarily agreed to the restrictions when you signed the documents before you moved in. What? You didn't bother to read and understand them? Tough luck, Charlie.

But what if I DO read the rules, and they are reasonable to me, and I agree, and then after I move in some douchey busybody gets him/herself elected to the board and puts in much stricter rules that I'm suddenly subject to? 

Fuck that noise. 

The answer is usually "well, you need to be active on the board to prevent that" which seems absurd to me, I am now obligated to do shit to make sure that no one can create new rules I have to be subjected to?  Thanks but no thanks. 

And I'm fortunate enough to have a choice not to live in an HOA; in some areas in order to be in a decent school district/neighborhood/etc it's essentially mandatory that you buy into an HOA because there aren't any good alternatives.

Dicey

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2016, 08:40:49 AM »
My city is uninterested in enforcing their own damn code. For example, the rules cap overnight parking at 72 hours, but it's never enforced. This vehicle hasn't moved in years. He has in effect, created his own middle finger statue. Notice where he's parked and still no action from any public agency. If he gets to park in front of a fire hydrant indefinitely, how can anyone else be cited for blocking any hydrant they choose?

Carrie

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2016, 08:41:35 AM »
I don't mind being in an HOA neighborhood, but I did read carefully what we would be subjected to.  There are some neighborhoods who are crazy around here (and expensive), and ours seems reasonable.  I don't mind that we've all agreed to no political signs, no yardsales (we have a community sale group on facebook), no cars out on the street overnight, trashcans brought in the same day, no window a/c units, no overgrown yard, mailbox in good repair.  These are things that help keep the value of the neighborhood up.  We pay $250 per year and with that money our neighborhood association throws a few social events and has built a neighborhood playground.
 I'm so glad that we each get to choose what type of street/ neighborhood / countryside we get to live in -- those who aren't bothered by cars on blocks can choose that, those who would rather have a more uniform / neat look can pick that (and there's much in between).

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2016, 08:48:31 AM »
I always chuckle when I hear people complain about HOAs.

I gladly pay my HOA fee every month for the peace of mind that they will bother my neighbor for any of the following:
Parking outside of a driveway or in front of their house (I don't want neighbors parking on lawns or having boats in their driveway)
Yard that looks terrible
House color that I don't approve of (neighbor wanted to paint their house so they have to come to me to sign off on their color choice before submitting it to the HOA)
Yard sculptures that are an eye sore (one neighborhood without an HOA has a huge rusted statute that is not artistically placed in a yard)

There is a neighbor that has had a car parked in the driveway without being moved for months and even that bothers me.  At least drive it so the cobwebs are gone.

I also love HOAs because it keeps all the control freaks in one area and frees the rest of us who don't desire to lord over each others' property to do what we like with our own stuff.

Hear, hear. Screw HOAs. Y'all have fun telling each other what to do. I'll keep minding my own business and not giving a shit what my neighbors do with their personal property.

Jack

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2016, 08:53:01 AM »
Re: HOAs, what gets me the most is whether you own or rent,  you knew there was a HOA when you moved in. Nobody forces anyone to buy into an HOA.

The trouble is when every house in your area/price range/style is in an HOA. It is entirely possible to end up with a job in one of those suburban office parks somewhere that literally has zero non-HOA housing within reasonable commuting distance.



HOAs are evil abominations designed to allow bigots to enforce "rules" that would be unconstitutional and discriminatory if they were laws. (HOA apologists can deny that their particular HOA is that way all they want, but if you look into the history of HOAs the facts are irrefutable. They were literally invented because the laws against segregationist zoning kept getting struck down.)

Jrr85

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2016, 09:31:04 AM »

And I'm fortunate enough to have a choice not to live in an HOA; in some areas in order to be in a decent school district/neighborhood/etc it's essentially mandatory that you buy into an HOA because there aren't any good alternatives.

Do you think it's possible that might be sort of related?  Maybe people that tend to be good neighbors and contribute to a nice neighborhood tend to voluntarily choose to live in a neighborhood where everybody agrees to the type of standards they would follow anyway?  So when the people that don't want to be held to those standards end up in non-HOA areas, and make those areas less desirable. 

No doubt some HOA's are awful, and there is always going to be a tendency for busybodies with no sense of perspective to be over represented in HOA leadership roles, because taking a leadership role with a HOA is just going to be more attractive to those types.  But there's a reason people look around and say "all the good neighborhoods have HOAs".  HOAs deal with the type of things that keep a neighborhood nice that municipalities often no longer have the resources or interest to deal with.


Chris22

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2016, 09:33:08 AM »

And I'm fortunate enough to have a choice not to live in an HOA; in some areas in order to be in a decent school district/neighborhood/etc it's essentially mandatory that you buy into an HOA because there aren't any good alternatives.

Do you think it's possible that might be sort of related?  Maybe people that tend to be good neighbors and contribute to a nice neighborhood tend to voluntarily choose to live in a neighborhood where everybody agrees to the type of standards they would follow anyway?  So when the people that don't want to be held to those standards end up in non-HOA areas, and make those areas less desirable. 

No doubt some HOA's are awful, and there is always going to be a tendency for busybodies with no sense of perspective to be over represented in HOA leadership roles, because taking a leadership role with a HOA is just going to be more attractive to those types.  But there's a reason people look around and say "all the good neighborhoods have HOAs".  HOAs deal with the type of things that keep a neighborhood nice that municipalities often no longer have the resources or interest to deal with.

Maybe maybe not.  I live in an excellent neighborhood with excellent schools now, and no HOA.

Kitsune

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2016, 09:39:23 AM »

And I'm fortunate enough to have a choice not to live in an HOA; in some areas in order to be in a decent school district/neighborhood/etc it's essentially mandatory that you buy into an HOA because there aren't any good alternatives.

Do you think it's possible that might be sort of related?  Maybe people that tend to be good neighbors and contribute to a nice neighborhood tend to voluntarily choose to live in a neighborhood where everybody agrees to the type of standards they would follow anyway?  So when the people that don't want to be held to those standards end up in non-HOA areas, and make those areas less desirable. 

No doubt some HOA's are awful, and there is always going to be a tendency for busybodies with no sense of perspective to be over represented in HOA leadership roles, because taking a leadership role with a HOA is just going to be more attractive to those types.  But there's a reason people look around and say "all the good neighborhoods have HOAs".  HOAs deal with the type of things that keep a neighborhood nice that municipalities often no longer have the resources or interest to deal with.

Maybe maybe not.  I live in an excellent neighborhood with excellent schools now, and no HOA.

This. I mean, I posted above that my neighbor's house is none of my damned business (and I live on a dirt road in the country, so...) but honestly, these are all people who maintain flower beds and mow their lawns (... occasionally it gets kinda raggedy and long, but that's life, sometimes other things take priority), we have BBQs with people who care enough to respect other peoples food preferences, etc.

It is possible to simultaneously believe that your neighbor has no damned right to tell you what to do with your property, AND to believe that you want to have a nice house and invite your neighbors for a BBQ every so often and bring over flowers when your peonies bloomed and theirs didn't.

You can believe that your property is your business, and their property is THEIR business and not yours, while simultaneously not being a jackass about it. 

MilesTeg

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2016, 09:44:41 AM »

And I'm fortunate enough to have a choice not to live in an HOA; in some areas in order to be in a decent school district/neighborhood/etc it's essentially mandatory that you buy into an HOA because there aren't any good alternatives.

Do you think it's possible that might be sort of related?  Maybe people that tend to be good neighbors and contribute to a nice neighborhood tend to voluntarily choose to live in a neighborhood where everybody agrees to the type of standards they would follow anyway?  So when the people that don't want to be held to those standards end up in non-HOA areas, and make those areas less desirable. 

Total B.S. Many of the really nice neighborhoods in my town are NOT HOA ruled. Typically from before the time the city decided it wanted no responsibility to provide and maintain common spaces (but still wants the tax money!). They are very nice neighborhoods -- with nice architecture, decent size lots, great locations, etc. -- and also completely unaffordable due to those same reasons. You can't get even sniff a 100 sqft gutted 'fixxer upper' house for less than $600k in a town where the average home price is ~$250k.

Sure, there are a couple poorly maintained residences, but that somehow doesn't stop these houses from being extremely high value.

HOAs are just an excuse for people who desire it to have petty power over others. There is no evidence that they actually provide for better home values, especially when you consider the extra expense they entail.

MilesTeg

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2016, 09:47:00 AM »
Re: HOAs, what gets me the most is whether you own or rent,  you knew there was a HOA when you moved in. Nobody forces anyone to buy into an HOA.

The trouble is when every house in your area/price range/style is in an HOA. It is entirely possible to end up with a job in one of those suburban office parks somewhere that literally has zero non-HOA housing within reasonable commuting distance.



HOAs are evil abominations designed to allow bigots to enforce "rules" that would be unconstitutional and discriminatory if they were laws. (HOA apologists can deny that their particular HOA is that way all they want, but if you look into the history of HOAs the facts are irrefutable. They were literally invented because the laws against segregationist zoning kept getting struck down.)

This is indeed the problem. Truly optional HOAs are fine (or HOAs that stick to the only ethical purpose -- to maintain actual common property!), but when circumstances prevent a realistic alternative, they become intolerable.

MilesTeg

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2016, 09:55:02 AM »
You realize the fact that he is talking about liking living in an HOA neighborhood means he clearly recognizes he doesn't have an inherent right to tell other people what to do with their property?  It's a mutual thing.  You give up some autonomy in exchange for assurance that the neighborhood will more or less be what you consider attractive and desirable. 

It's not that cut and dry. Like I said, in my town the city requires all new development to be done under and HOA. That means that all the most affordable housing is locked in with no option whatsoever. The city has given carte blanche over to the soulless types that love obtaining petty power over others. And my city is not unique, it's very common these days.

Give me a realistic choice and I have no problem. But when my only actual choices are

1.) Affordable modern housing near my work but with an HOA
2.) Ancient shacks that go for outrageous prices
3.) Homes outside the city with a long commute

and there is a real problem that needs to be addressed.

Jrr85

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2016, 10:42:05 AM »

And I'm fortunate enough to have a choice not to live in an HOA; in some areas in order to be in a decent school district/neighborhood/etc it's essentially mandatory that you buy into an HOA because there aren't any good alternatives.

Do you think it's possible that might be sort of related?  Maybe people that tend to be good neighbors and contribute to a nice neighborhood tend to voluntarily choose to live in a neighborhood where everybody agrees to the type of standards they would follow anyway?  So when the people that don't want to be held to those standards end up in non-HOA areas, and make those areas less desirable. 

Total B.S. Many of the really nice neighborhoods in my town are NOT HOA ruled. Typically from before the time the city decided it wanted no responsibility to provide and maintain common spaces (but still wants the tax money!). They are very nice neighborhoods -- with nice architecture, decent size lots, great locations, etc. -- and also completely unaffordable due to those same reasons. You can't get even sniff a 100 sqft gutted 'fixxer upper' house for less than $600k in a town where the average home price is ~$250k.

Sure, there are a couple poorly maintained residences, but that somehow doesn't stop these houses from being extremely high value.

HOAs are just an excuse for people who desire it to have petty power over others. There is no evidence that they actually provide for better home values, especially when you consider the extra expense they entail.

I was referring to the poster who said there weren't any decent neighborhoods without HOAs in some areas.  There is no doubt that once you get to a certain property value, they become much less needed for property values.  If you're in a neighborhood with an entry level price point that is 5 or 6 times the median income for an area, the type of people that can afford to be there will generally want to keep the neighborhood nice regardless, and when you have a few that don't, it's not enough to significantly impact the neighborhood.  And of course some areas are lucky enough to have people that generally don't have to be reigned in by an HOA period. 

In my area, which I'm not sure is typical, pretty much the only neighborhoods with active homeowner's associations are neighborhoods with entry and midlevel homes.  The two nicest local neighborhoods don't have them at all.  They have covenants, but no mandatory HOA charged with enforcing them.  If somebody has a problem with someone breaking a covenant, they ahve to go talk to the other owner about it, and if they care enough and it's necessary, they would have to take them to court to enforce the covenant.  I'm not aware of anybody ever trying to enforce them.  The people that can afford to be in those neighborhoods and are willing to pay to be in them overwhelmingly care about it being nice. 

The more entry and midlevel neighborhoods are more likely to deal with people that will leave cars on blocks, or park in the yard and street, not mow the yard, etc., so they are more likely to have HOAs that actively police their covenants.  I can't blame people that can only afford an entry or midlevel home for wanting the option of living in a neighborhood that is kept up.   

mm1970

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2016, 10:47:08 AM »
I always chuckle when I hear people complain about HOAs.

I gladly pay my HOA fee every month for the peace of mind that they will bother my neighbor for any of the following:
Parking outside of a driveway or in front of their house (I don't want neighbors parking on lawns or having boats in their driveway)
Yard that looks terrible
House color that I don't approve of (neighbor wanted to paint their house so they have to come to me to sign off on their color choice before submitting it to the HOA)
Yard sculptures that are an eye sore (one neighborhood without an HOA has a huge rusted statute that is not artistically placed in a yard)

There is a neighbor that has had a car parked in the driveway without being moved for months and even that bothers me.  At least drive it so the cobwebs are gone.
I used to be very anti-HOA.  My friends live in an HOA community, and they just bought a second house there.  And there's a house for sale across the street from their house.

(A coworker lives there, bought when it was built, and got into trouble for having tomato plants in front of the house...he didn't plant them, they just "came up" on their own, before the builder had done the landscaping.  Anyway.)

I like my 'hood and my neighbors.  Next door neighbors painted their house bright blue.  It's really cute.
But it's an older 'hood.  And...the parking.  A lot of people have added units (legal or not) to their small 5000 sf lots.  And now you have many houses (half?) with 4-5 cars each.  Some of the houses only have space for one car in the driveway, and the garage, if you have one, is too small for a car.

Visiting my friends recently, I thought "it's not so bad".
First, cars must be parked in the driveway or in the garage.  There is limited off-street space.
Second, they have an on-site gym and two pools.  And a basketball court, and other open space.
Third, they are really close to the elementary school.  And Costco.  And the movie theater.

However, they are also very close to the university, so there is traffic.  They are across the street from some student housing, so there may be noise.

There are positives and negatives to HOAs, and like others said - whether or not you can find a nice house without one, will depend a lot on the area.

I live in a very HCOL place, but there's prop 13 here.  So in a "mixed" neighborhood like mine, you have 1920's homes that have been doubled in size.  So, someone had the money to put down $300k or $500k (depending on when they bought) and then do construction.  Or if you bought post-construction, then $1.1M.

Other 2BR 1BA houses are selling for about $750k, and these tend to be 1940's originals, no updates, some 90-year old couple/ person just died.  Clearly you have to be able to buy in and fix up.  I'm sure the neighbors would prefer our yard look ... decent, but we've got 2 kids and 2 FT jobs, so ... you'll be waiting awhile.

Some of the houses have several generations, so there is again the parking issue.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 10:54:44 AM by mm1970 »

Jrr85

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2016, 10:47:35 AM »
You realize the fact that he is talking about liking living in an HOA neighborhood means he clearly recognizes he doesn't have an inherent right to tell other people what to do with their property?  It's a mutual thing.  You give up some autonomy in exchange for assurance that the neighborhood will more or less be what you consider attractive and desirable. 

It's not that cut and dry. Like I said, in my town the city requires all new development to be done under and HOA. That means that all the most affordable housing is locked in with no option whatsoever. The city has given carte blanche over to the soulless types that love obtaining petty power over others. And my city is not unique, it's very common these days.

Give me a realistic choice and I have no problem. But when my only actual choices are

1.) Affordable modern housing near my work but with an HOA
2.) Ancient shacks that go for outrageous prices
3.) Homes outside the city with a long commute

and there is a real problem that needs to be addressed.

Like I said, I'm not familiar with those types of areas and that seems like a bad idea to me.  Cities should at least leave the option to create a new subdivision where the developer does nothing but what is required to dedicate the streets, sewer, water, etc. and then allow the neighborhood to be just subject to whatever zoning requirements are already in place. 

Jack

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2016, 10:56:52 AM »
Like I said, I'm not familiar with those types of areas and that seems like a bad idea to me.  Cities should at least leave the option to create a new subdivision where the developer does nothing but what is required to dedicate the streets, sewer, water, etc. and then allow the neighborhood to be just subject to whatever zoning requirements are already in place.

IMO, even that is giving the developer too much control. The street grid should be designed by the city planners and the developer should just have to accept it. And when I say "grid" I really do mean grid, implying small blocks with lots of connectivity, as opposed to the gigantic gated cul-de-sac mazes connected by six-lane arterial highways that developers are prone to building now.

ketchup

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2016, 11:11:52 AM »
HOAs are awful (lived in one once in a rental for a year, never again), but sometimes local code enforcement can be almost as bad. 

This spring I got yelled at (no ticket though) for the grass in my (fenced!) back yard "looking bad."  I pointed out the fact that I had just dug up nearly the whole thing and put down seed, but that didn't seem to matter...

They had to come back in 60 days to make sure it had grown and was between x inches and y inches in length.  Dumb dumb dumb.

Jrr85

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2016, 11:25:58 AM »
Like I said, I'm not familiar with those types of areas and that seems like a bad idea to me.  Cities should at least leave the option to create a new subdivision where the developer does nothing but what is required to dedicate the streets, sewer, water, etc. and then allow the neighborhood to be just subject to whatever zoning requirements are already in place.

IMO, even that is giving the developer too much control. The street grid should be designed by the city planners and the developer should just have to accept it. And when I say "grid" I really do mean grid, implying small blocks with lots of connectivity, as opposed to the gigantic gated cul-de-sac mazes connected by six-lane arterial highways that developers are prone to building now.

I hate areas that are just a bunch of gated communities adjacent to each other like you are describing, but I think the problem is that the city is not the ones building the roads.  They are happy to get the tax revenue from new homes and to have the infrastructure built out by the developer.  It'd be nice if they just set the grid and the developers had to follow it, even if they are building the road, but we're apparently in the minority, as it seems most people, taking into account price, are happier with the benefits and tradeoffs of the developments you are describing.  I live in small town/city (<200k MSA) with a nice downtown and there are still tons of gated communities going up on the outer limits of the town while there is usable land walking distance to downtown.  Not even land where you have to tear down blight and rebuild, just usable land.  Of course the people that own the land are wanting high dollar for it, which is part of what makes the developments on the outer limits of town desirable.  They get a lot of sq. ft. and large lot for a cheap price.   

MilesTeg

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2016, 11:55:09 AM »
HOAs are awful (lived in one once in a rental for a year, never again), but sometimes local code enforcement can be almost as bad. 

This spring I got yelled at (no ticket though) for the grass in my (fenced!) back yard "looking bad."  I pointed out the fact that I had just dug up nearly the whole thing and put down seed, but that didn't seem to matter...

They had to come back in 60 days to make sure it had grown and was between x inches and y inches in length.  Dumb dumb dumb.

In my experience only incompetent and spiteful folks desire to actually sit on an board. For example, we had to take our HOA to arbitration to get them to stop using dues for contracts they had signed that were not authorized by the governing documents. Note to HOA board members: no, you can't do whatever you want with the association's funds no matter how 'good' your intentions are. You must comply with the contractual terms of the association.

I also had to threaten them with legal action when they attempted to enforce covenants that were not allowable under state law (in particular, covenants trying to prevent xeroscaping and use of evaporative coolers). Luckily there are enough non-crazy legislators in the state that a least some of the stupid of HOAs is mitigated.

HOAs are a cancer that should be stripped of any and all authority over anything but real shared property (pools, condos, etc.). They provide no actual benefit and are just another level of (extremely poorly controlled) bureaucracy.

Does anyone here actually think it's a good idea to hand over ownership of 'your' property to other people? And to be clear, that EXACTLY what you are doing. If you read your contract, you will note that you are signing over right of first lien to the association, which means the association is the effective owner of your property, not you. Don't pay your due's or a $50 petty fine? They can take your entire property from you and sell it off to recover that "debt".

All other things aside, it's utter insanity to think that is a good idea no matter what benefit you might think you get from an HOA.

Jrr85

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2016, 12:19:41 PM »
HOAs are awful (lived in one once in a rental for a year, never again), but sometimes local code enforcement can be almost as bad. 

This spring I got yelled at (no ticket though) for the grass in my (fenced!) back yard "looking bad."  I pointed out the fact that I had just dug up nearly the whole thing and put down seed, but that didn't seem to matter...

They had to come back in 60 days to make sure it had grown and was between x inches and y inches in length.  Dumb dumb dumb.

In my experience only incompetent and spiteful folks desire to actually sit on an board. For example, we had to take our HOA to arbitration to get them to stop using dues for contracts they had signed that were not authorized by the governing documents. Note to HOA board members: no, you can't do whatever you want with the association's funds no matter how 'good' your intentions are. You must comply with the contractual terms of the association.

I also had to threaten them with legal action when they attempted to enforce covenants that were not allowable under state law (in particular, covenants trying to prevent xeroscaping and use of evaporative coolers). Luckily there are enough non-crazy legislators in the state that a least some of the stupid of HOAs is mitigated.

HOAs are a cancer that should be stripped of any and all authority over anything but real shared property (pools, condos, etc.). They provide no actual benefit and are just another level of (extremely poorly controlled) bureaucracy.

Does anyone here actually think it's a good idea to hand over ownership of 'your' property to other people? And to be clear, that EXACTLY what you are doing. If you read your contract, you will note that you are signing over right of first lien to the association, which means the association is the effective owner of your property, not you. Don't pay your due's or a $50 petty fine? They can take your entire property from you and sell it off to recover that "debt".

All other things aside, it's utter insanity to think that is a good idea no matter what benefit you might think you get from an HOA.

And yet people still strongly desire to live in neighborhoods with HOA's.  Probably because it rarely works out that poorly.  I would guess it's usually no worse than city government, which also often attracts busy bodies or questionable competence and will have a lot of corruption if active voters don't hold them accountable. 

MilesTeg

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2016, 12:37:12 PM »

And yet people still strongly desire to live in neighborhoods with HOA's.  Probably because it rarely works out that poorly.  I would guess it's usually no worse than city government, which also often attracts busy bodies or questionable competence and will have a lot of corruption if active voters don't hold them accountable.

That's just an argumentum ad populum.

The interesting question is not "do lots of people think HOAs are a good thing". The interesting question is "do HOAs actually provide the benefits they claim to provide"? Moreover, people willingly do lots of things for non-rational reasons. For an apropos example, many people 'strongly desire' lots of consumer goods because they think they will make them happy.

I have asked others before, and never seen and evidence that HOAs actually improve property value or provide any other benefit beyond providing people with an outlet to impose their petty will on others. Obviously they provide a benefit of managing common property. Do you have such evidence showing the financial benefits claimed?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 01:17:14 PM by MilesTeg »

UKMustache

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2016, 01:14:41 PM »

And yet people still strongly desire to live in neighborhoods with HOA's.  Probably because it rarely works out that poorly.  I would guess it's usually no worse than city government, which also often attracts busy bodies or questionable competence and will have a lot of corruption if active voters don't hold them accountable.

That's just an argumentum ad populum.

The interesting question is not "do lots of people think HOAs are a good thing". The interesting question is "do HOAs actually provide the benefits they claim to provide"? Moreover, people willing do lots of things for non-rational reasons. For an apropos example, many people 'strong desire' lots of consumer goods and go heavily into debt to get them.

I have asked others before, and never seen and evidence that HOAs actually improve property value or provide any other benefit beyond providing people with an outlet to impose their petty will on others. Obviously they provide a benefit of managing common property. Do you have such evidence showing the financial benefits claimed?

It's like people have been brainwashed by the HOA ideal. 

They believe that if they didn't live somewhere with charges then all the neighbours would immediately leave half destroyed cars on their 3ft tall lawns around their bright pink houses.

Seriously, the fears are unfounded and ridiculous.

Jrr85

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2016, 01:26:07 PM »

And yet people still strongly desire to live in neighborhoods with HOA's.  Probably because it rarely works out that poorly.  I would guess it's usually no worse than city government, which also often attracts busy bodies or questionable competence and will have a lot of corruption if active voters don't hold them accountable.

That's just an argumentum ad populum.

The interesting question is not "do lots of people think HOAs are a good thing". The interesting question is "do HOAs actually provide the benefits they claim to provide"? Moreover, people willing do lots of things for non-rational reasons. For an apropos example, many people 'strong desire' lots of consumer goods and go heavily into debt to get them.

I have asked others before, and never seen and evidence that HOAs actually improve property value or provide any other benefit beyond providing people with an outlet to impose their petty will on others. Obviously they provide a benefit of managing common property. Do you have such evidence showing the financial benefits claimed?

I have no clue how they impact property values overall, but for people of moderate means that want to nonetheless live in a neighborhood where yards and exteriors are maintained to a particular standard or maintain a particular character, then they provide that benefit to them (assuming the HOA actually enforces the covenants).  I would guess that for moderately priced neighborhoods, HOAs do have a slightly positive impact on home values.  I would guess well run HOAs have a bigger positive impact, but also guess that enough are poorly run (including corruption involving HOA funds but also just overzealousness to the point of scaring off buyers) that the impact overall would show up as very small. 

But's important to realize it's not all about property values.  There is one neighborhood near me that has set up it's covenants to be a retirement community.  They literally are not supposed to have kids there.  I'm not sure those covenants are actually enforceable (when I was looking for a house I was told that nobody would try to stop us from buying even though we had kids), but that's what the HOA was originally set up for, not to maintain property values, but to maintain a neighborhood where you might have grandkids playing in teh yard, but you (presumably) wouldn't have teenagers hosting house parties.  Similarly, some people don't want to live around well maintained houses simply because of the property values, but simply because they like being surrounded by what they view as a pretty/desirable neighborhood.

Chris22

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Re: Letter drop asking residents to devise a plan to replace "shabby" cars :)
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2016, 01:33:49 PM »
You have to weigh any potential upside of an HOA against losing buyers who will not buy into an HOA no matter what. We are out there and there are more of us than you think.