Author Topic: Kids to go without Christmas  (Read 11527 times)

Flyingkea

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2598
  • Location: Australia
Kids to go without Christmas
« on: December 22, 2014, 12:20:58 PM »
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/64406798/kids-to-go-without-christmas-mum-says

I like the some of the comments at the end of the article - especially the only about missing out on free food and presents, when Christmas should be about family.

RFAAOATB

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2014, 12:27:53 PM »
Tsk Tsk Tsk.... a poor woman with six kids and a partner (no husband?) surprised with how expensive six kids are.

The government should subsidize birth control injections for all women much along with vaccines for everyone. 


Artemis67

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Age: 53
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2014, 02:05:07 PM »
Her partner is currently unemployed. Why couldn't he have watched the kids while she attended the budget advice meeting?

MgoSam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3649
  • Location: Minnesota
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2014, 02:30:57 PM »
Smh..

Forcus

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 714
  • Location: Central Illinois
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2014, 02:50:43 PM »
This kind of thing ruins it for people who really are trying and not just milking the system.

Flyingkea

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2598
  • Location: Australia
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2014, 03:18:35 PM »
Tsk Tsk Tsk.... a poor woman with six kids and a partner (no husband?) surprised with how expensive six kids are.

The government should subsidize birth control injections for all women much along with vaccines for everyone.

Um, vaccines are free in NZ, not sure about birth control so much, but it can be subsidised if you meet certain criteria. B/C injections are horrible things though, I would never get one.
But anyway, Inwas impressed by the "its not my fault attitude"

KodeBlue

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 213
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2014, 03:28:19 PM »
I think the spokesperson for the Salvation Army put it best:
"I have been in touch with her budget advisor and she assures me they do have money. Like everyone Shelly has known Christmas is coming."

If I can plan for Hanukkah, which changes date year to year, certainly someone can plan for Dec. 25th of the coming year.

ABC123

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 263
  • Location: Nashville
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2014, 11:29:36 AM »
I can't imagine purposely putting my own family into the media like that.  Those poor kids have to go to school knowing their friends have likely heard about this.  So sad.  Some people really need to learn what personal responsibility is.  I admit, it took me a while to figure out why everyone in the comments kept talking about "Sally".  Sally?  Who is she?  I didn't see anyone with that name in the article.  Oh, wait . . . now I get it.

MgoSam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3649
  • Location: Minnesota
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2014, 11:42:08 AM »
Parents like this, or the women in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBqjZ0KZCa0

Sicken me. There are millions of families that are struggling, and do require assistance from time to time, examples that show just how dependent some people are on hand-outs is just disgusting. I feel for the kids who are the ones hurt, and just hate how dependent some people are when it comes to assistance. The lady in the video, I'll wager she has no concept of personal responsibility, and those that are working will need to pay the tab.

Poorman

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 260
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Orange County, CA
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2014, 11:51:18 AM »
Quote
The children would not be getting any presents and the family would eat what was in the fridge, including bread and chicken on Christmas day, they said.

Maybe there's a cultural difference here, but to me bread and chicken sounds pretty good.  Did anybody else find that statement odd?

Zamboni

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2718
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2014, 11:54:49 AM »
I was actually thinking about roasting a chicken on Christmas before I saw this.  Hmmm.

I do feel really sorry for these kids, but not because of the chicken or lack of Christmas presents.

Elderwood17

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 525
  • Location: Western North Carolina
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2014, 12:19:23 PM »
It is indeed hard not to shake your head at this article; hopefully the children don't adopt the parents attitudes but learn some life lessons for the positive in all this. 

kiwibeach

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Auckland
  • getting there......
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2014, 08:25:02 PM »
I saw this Article yesterday, the sense of entitlement from the parents is quite something,  that other people should just provide presents for her kids. And that it's all somebody else's fault. I feel for her kids, tomorrow isn't going to be fun with parents pulling that kind of attitude.
 I was glad to hear the salvation army spokesperson say that they weren't on their list due to missing budgeting advice. We have participated a couple of years in the Salvation Army christmas family thing, they give you ages and gender of kids, you find some presents for them, and some yummy Christmas treats. My kids love to help find gifts for the other kids, and it helps to combat some of that rampant consumerism.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16849
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2014, 06:28:23 AM »
Quote
The children would not be getting any presents and the family would eat what was in the fridge, including bread and chicken on Christmas day, they said.

Maybe there's a cultural difference here, but to me bread and chicken sounds pretty good.  Did anybody else find that statement odd?

It's kinda odd that they're keeping bread in the fridge.  Usually it gets stale faster like that.

chouchouu

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 340
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2014, 01:23:12 AM »
Our church has a monthly lunch for families in need last Sunday I was in charge of giving out the donated presents to the kids. One boy of about 8 changed his present three times, he wanted a bigger one! I think next year I'll get a big box wrapped up and fill it with socks. :/

Most of the kids are lovely though and I'm happy to give a second present if we have enough and they ask politely.

stripey

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 768
  • Age: 120
  • Location: Australia
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2014, 01:47:21 AM »
Quote
The children would not be getting any presents and the family would eat what was in the fridge, including bread and chicken on Christmas day, they said.

Maybe there's a cultural difference here, but to me bread and chicken sounds pretty good.  Did anybody else find that statement odd?

It's kinda odd that they're keeping bread in the fridge.  Usually it gets stale faster like that.

Might depend on the climate. If it's a warm/humid climate, the bread will dry out in the fridge slower than it will go mouldy if kept in the pantry. Not that it should last that long anyway in a family with six children.

Primm

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1319
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Australia
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2014, 01:48:13 AM »
Quote
The children would not be getting any presents and the family would eat what was in the fridge, including bread and chicken on Christmas day, they said.

Maybe there's a cultural difference here, but to me bread and chicken sounds pretty good.  Did anybody else find that statement odd?

It's kinda odd that they're keeping bread in the fridge.  Usually it gets stale faster like that.

Hot and humid down here at this time of year. If we don't keep the bread in the fridge it goes mouldy by day two.

agent_clone

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 252
  • Location: Australia
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2014, 03:56:33 AM »
Quote
The children would not be getting any presents and the family would eat what was in the fridge, including bread and chicken on Christmas day, they said.

Maybe there's a cultural difference here, but to me bread and chicken sounds pretty good.  Did anybody else find that statement odd?

It's kinda odd that they're keeping bread in the fridge.  Usually it gets stale faster like that.
For loaves I opt for the freezer rather than the fridge.  It lasts a couple of months that way and for lunch purposes if your taking it to work just put whatever on top in the morning and its not frozen anymore by lunch, for immediate purposes 25 seconds in a microwave fixes the frozen issue.  Not that I have bought bread in a while.

Rural

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4938
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2014, 08:11:32 AM »
Quote
The children would not be getting any presents and the family would eat what was in the fridge, including bread and chicken on Christmas day, they said.

Maybe there's a cultural difference here, but to me bread and chicken sounds pretty good.  Did anybody else find that statement odd?

It's kinda odd that they're keeping bread in the fridge.  Usually it gets stale faster like that.

Hot and humid down here at this time of year. If we don't keep the bread in the fridge it goes mouldy by day two.


Yep. It's fridge or free penicillin here.

RFAAOATB

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2014, 11:56:59 AM »
WHY on earth would you bring another child into this world, if you CAN'T afford it?????

Because sex is the one of the only fun things poor people can do for free and we as a society frown on compulsory birth control.

sheepstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2419
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2014, 12:19:01 PM »
Am I the only one who thinks getting this article published was a really savvy move on the part of the Salvation Army?

pachnik

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1861
  • Age: 56
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2014, 12:30:21 PM »
I was a little surprised by the article.  So far, I've never been on the receiving end of any charity but I have definitely donated to them over the years.  I really didn't know that the Sally would expect the recipients to attend a budgeting class.  Definitely not a bad thing but I still feel badly for the kids from the point of view of what they are learning in the family home. 

cautiouslyunconventional

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 22
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2014, 07:45:09 PM »
Tsk Tsk Tsk.... a poor woman with six kids and a partner (no husband?) surprised with how expensive six kids are.

The government should subsidize birth control injections for all women much along with vaccines for everyone.

Um, vaccines are free in NZ, not sure about birth control so much, but it can be subsidised if you meet certain criteria. B/C injections are horrible things though, I would never get one.
But anyway, Inwas impressed by the "its not my fault attitude"
That's what I was thinking.. go for IUD, or at least those under-skin implants, both are safer (and can be removed if side effects happen).

Also kinda frightening that they'd have so little wiggle room in the budget that they can't even pull together something simple - crayons or bargin bin movies or homemade toys or something.

Flyingkea

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2598
  • Location: Australia
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2014, 10:33:52 PM »

That's what I was thinking.. go for IUD, or at least those under-skin implants, both are safer (and can be removed if side effects happen).

Also kinda frightening that they'd have so little wiggle room in the budget that they can't even pull together something simple - crayons or bargin bin movies or homemade toys or something.
[/quote]

Just looked up fees, you are looking over $400 to get a IUD unless you get a medical exemption.
 Agreed about the budget, you can get plenty of small items at the $2 shop. (Mostly junk but anyway...) but as someone said, why couldn't the dad look after the kids while she went to the budgeting meeting?

Lia-Aimee

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2014, 02:09:05 PM »
First thought: wow, I hope those kids aren't exposed to ridicule in school after having their photo in the paper like that.

I personally don't like how SallyAnn makes their charity incumbent on the attendance of certain courses (a friend of mine was turned away from their shelter once, when he didn't want to attend a Bible class.)  That said, why are Christmas gifts and a Christmas feast being treated almost as a human right?  A lot of fun can be had without either.  Growing up we had Christmas every other year just because Mum didn't like the holiday. I survived.

MgoSam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3649
  • Location: Minnesota
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2014, 03:11:38 PM »

I personally don't like how SallyAnn makes their charity incumbent on the attendance of certain courses (a friend of mine was turned away from their shelter once, when he didn't want to attend a Bible class.) 

I disagree, most charities that I've worked with have had specific rules in return for receiving their services/goods. The reason for this is to avoid abuse and to ensure that those that they serve actually are benefited. That said, there is potential for abuse. I personally disagree with requiring attendance at a Bible class (or any other religious instruction) in return for aid. I have zero issue with religiously based organizations, I volunteer at a Christian-based mission*, but I don't think someone's religion should be held hostage to receiving aid.

*They will send their food to all organizations, including non-Christians.

Lia-Aimee

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2014, 04:30:54 PM »
Perhaps it's having taken too many women studies courses in uni, but imho charity isn't charity if it's not freely given without conditions.  I can see having rules like requiring proof of income to ensure wealthy people aren't taking advantage of it, and safety rules ie. abuse of the staff or volunteers makes you ineligible, but I don't like the idea of forcing someone to take a course (even a badly needed one!) in exchange for aid.  I agree that the majority of charities do have specific rules like that. Also, good on your mission! :)

NumberJohnny5

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 659
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2014, 04:37:47 PM »
That said, why are Christmas gifts and a Christmas feast being treated almost as a human right?  A lot of fun can be had without either.  Growing up we had Christmas every other year just because Mum didn't like the holiday. I survived.

I agree. I hate how we teach people that Christmas is all about presents (and they better be new, and expensive). The lesson creeps in everywhere. Heck, one can't watch Rudolph without noticing Christmas will be cancelled if Santa can't deliver all his toys. Um...no. Christmas would only be cancelled if YOU let it. If Christmas is all about presents, and you don't get any, then yeah. But if you make Christmas about spending time with family, then only a TRUE tragedy would completely cancel Christmas (even if you have to work that day, celebrate it the day after).

I'm also quite the Scrooge when I hear how a family lost someone (say, a father in a war) and how their Christmas was "saved" by generous donations from an organization (say, a radio station). Uh, that's kinda shitty if you ask me. If a pile of presents can help you through a holiday season without a loved one...what does that say about us?

So, the kids had to go without Christmas this year? Only because the parents have taught Christmas = new expensive gifts. NOT because some charity didn't give them unnecessary luxuries.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3514
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2014, 06:52:22 PM »
Google their names.  Apparently this is how they make their living.  I read one article about how they claimed Dad had cancer /collected money for it.  They've been in court multiple times, and one judge called the Mom a "thoroughly dishonest woman".  One article shows they apparently received a big-screen TV last Christmas. 

As for requiring recipients to attend Bible classes, keep in mind that the Salvation Army is a CHURCH and a private organization.  If it were a government agency, then, yes, I'd say it's wrong to require such a class . . . but a private organization is completely different.  If I go out and start a charity, I can make whatever requirements I want! 

Lia-Aimee

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2014, 06:46:39 AM »
Oh I agree that SallyAnn has and should have every right to make up any requirements that it chooses, I just don't personally like those choices and will only donate to or volunteer at organizations that don't put (many) requirements on aid.

electriceagle

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2014, 08:21:46 AM »
I personally don't like how SallyAnn makes their charity incumbent on the attendance of certain courses (a friend of mine was turned away from their shelter once, when he didn't want to attend a Bible class.)  That said, why are Christmas gifts and a Christmas feast being treated almost as a human right?  A lot of fun can be had without either.  Growing up we had Christmas every other year just because Mum didn't like the holiday. I survived.

I disagree.

Most poverty in wealthy countries is not a matter of "not having enough".

Usually, long-term poverty is due to lack of skills, lifestyle choice, mental illness or some combination thereof. Food and presents might make her feel better in the short term (and make the giver feel good through her gratitude), but she really needs education in basic life skills. One way to get some of those skills is by attending a budgeting class.

Of course, if she really is a repeat scammer, she already has life skills and needs a different kind of education.

sheepstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2419
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2014, 10:04:01 AM »
I personally don't like how SallyAnn makes their charity incumbent on the attendance of certain courses (a friend of mine was turned away from their shelter once, when he didn't want to attend a Bible class.)  That said, why are Christmas gifts and a Christmas feast being treated almost as a human right?  A lot of fun can be had without either.  Growing up we had Christmas every other year just because Mum didn't like the holiday. I survived.

I disagree.

Most poverty in wealthy countries is not a matter of "not having enough".

Usually, long-term poverty is due to lack of skills, lifestyle choice, mental illness or some combination thereof. Food and presents might make her feel better in the short term (and make the giver feel good through her gratitude), but she really needs education in basic life skills. One way to get some of those skills is by attending a budgeting class.

Of course, if she really is a repeat scammer, she already has life skills and needs a different kind of education.

Sure, but Lia-Aimee's making the distinction about what constitutes charity from the person giving it. In a lot of religions I've noticed charity has to do with simply giving back some of what (to their thinking) god has given you. To me, it's interesting that charity and doing good can have very different ramifications.

MgoSam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3649
  • Location: Minnesota
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2014, 01:44:12 PM »
As for requiring recipients to attend Bible classes, keep in mind that the Salvation Army is a CHURCH and a private organization.  If it were a government agency, then, yes, I'd say it's wrong to require such a class . . . but a private organization is completely different.  If I go out and start a charity, I can make whatever requirements I want!

I admit up front that I honestly don't know the rules for non-profits and charities, but there is a different between them an other private organizations, in that they are afford tax-exempt status. I don't know if this affects any religious requirements they might have, or other requirements, but to state that they can do what they want because they are a private organization and not a government agency, is wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud the Salvation Army requiring them to attend a budget meeting, but there are examples where requirements for aid can be abused. I imagine that there are additional regulations if the non-profit receives funding from the government, but again I don't fully know.

Lia-Aimee

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2014, 02:42:05 PM »
I personally don't like how SallyAnn makes their charity incumbent on the attendance of certain courses (a friend of mine was turned away from their shelter once, when he didn't want to attend a Bible class.)  That said, why are Christmas gifts and a Christmas feast being treated almost as a human right?  A lot of fun can be had without either.  Growing up we had Christmas every other year just because Mum didn't like the holiday. I survived.

I disagree.

Most poverty in wealthy countries is not a matter of "not having enough".

Usually, long-term poverty is due to lack of skills, lifestyle choice, mental illness or some combination thereof. Food and presents might make her feel better in the short term (and make the giver feel good through her gratitude), but she really needs education in basic life skills. One way to get some of those skills is by attending a budgeting class.

Of course, if she really is a repeat scammer, she already has life skills and needs a different kind of education.

I agree that education in life skills is what she's lacking (unless she's a repeat scammer) but being forced to attend a course in order to receive aid is too parental for my personal, "red libertarian" self.  Attending a course about budgeting only does some good if you actually want to go and are interested in the topic, otherwise it's just time wasted for everyone involved. 

@Mgo Sam: good question, to my knowledge there are a list of rules that the third sector must follow, but I do believe they have the right to choose who they give their aid to as long as there is no discrimination on legal grounds.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3514
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2014, 03:44:37 PM »
Oh I agree that SallyAnn has and should have every right to make up any requirements that it chooses, I just don't personally like those choices and will only donate to or volunteer at organizations that don't put (many) requirements on aid.
And just as the charity can make its own decisions on how /to whom it will give, you as a donor SHOULD choose the charities that most closely mirror your own ideas.

babysnowbyrd

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 222
  • Age: 34
    • My Journal
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2014, 04:50:51 PM »
It's kinda odd that they're keeping bread in the fridge.  Usually it gets stale faster like that.

I forget where these guys are but in more humid places the bread may mold too fast. Not usually with such a large family though....

Spiffsome

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 209
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2014, 06:35:21 PM »
I think there's a fundamental difference between arbitrary requirements ("no money to tall people"), religious requirements ("no money for gay people") and what the Salvation Army is doing here ("no more money until you take this budgeting class"). Arbitrary requirements are probably not right to attach to charity but are more or less the private business of the charity doing the giving. Religious requirements are the private business of the charity up until that charity accepts governmental funding or resources, because it is wrong to take money from all of us and apply conditions to it from one religious perspective.

The conditions that the Salvation Army has attached in this case seem to be directly related to teaching someone not to need their charity in the future. I think this condition is quite legitimate and a very good idea because the whole point of charity is to help people out when they need help. Using it as an incentive to encourage people to develop skills so they will not need as much help in the future is helping that person. If that person would prefer to be helped directly in cash rather than in skills, well, that's not the Salvation Army's problem.

Flyingkea

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2598
  • Location: Australia
Re: Kids to go without Christmas
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2014, 06:54:35 PM »
It's kinda odd that they're keeping bread in the fridge.  Usually it gets stale faster like that.

I forget where these guys are but in more humid places the bread may mold too fast. Not usually with such a large family though....

Invercargill, New Zealand. So very far South. Didn't think it got that hot there tbh, and this year my rellies in NZ have been commentaring on how cold it is, despite it being start of summer.

"Give a man a fish, and feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime." Goes the old proverb, it feels like they are complaining about the cost of bait, and do you know how much a fishing rod goes for these days!?!? Besides, no guarantee you'll catch a fish...
In terms of requiring a budgeting meeting, the salvos do say "If we keep handing out we are enabling them to stay in the situation they are in. We aren't actually helping them at all in the long run." This was triggered by them needing more than 3 food parcels. - according to the article.