Author Topic: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?  (Read 15101 times)

fartface

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Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« on: March 05, 2015, 04:40:22 PM »
I'll say!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-05/parents-risk-retirement-to-support-millennial-kids

"A 48-year-old woman who lives in Westport, Conn., sheepishly admits that she and her husband, a finance executive, give their 22-year-old daughter tens of thousands of dollars each year to supplement the $30,000 she earns as a writer at a beauty website. The money covers her share of the rent on a Brooklyn (N.Y.) apartment, her frequent use of Uber car services, clothing purchases, and regular manicures and pedicures. “I tell my daughter, ‘We’re going to help you, but do you really need to buy $4 lattes every day and $14 kale salads?’ ” says the mother, who didn’t want to be named because she doesn’t want to embarrass her daughter or her husband. “When I was 22, I ate pizza every night.”
The couple have a comfortable six-figure income but haven’t purchased long-term care insurance for themselves or put aside all they’ll need—at least $10 million—to maintain their lifestyle in retirement. They wonder if and when their daughter will become self-sufficient and whether their son will also expect continued support after he graduates from college in a few years. “We’re stuck between a rock and a hard place, because we want our kids to be happy,” she says."

trailrated

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2015, 04:53:24 PM »
I'll say!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-05/parents-risk-retirement-to-support-millennial-kids

"A 48-year-old woman who lives in Westport, Conn., sheepishly admits that she and her husband, a finance executive, give their 22-year-old daughter tens of thousands of dollars each year to supplement the $30,000 she earns as a writer at a beauty website. The money covers her share of the rent on a Brooklyn (N.Y.) apartment, her frequent use of Uber car services, clothing purchases, and regular manicures and pedicures. “I tell my daughter, ‘We’re going to help you, but do you really need to buy $4 lattes every day and $14 kale salads?’ ” says the mother, who didn’t want to be named because she doesn’t want to embarrass her daughter or her husband. “When I was 22, I ate pizza every night.”
The couple have a comfortable six-figure income but haven’t purchased long-term care insurance for themselves or put aside all they’ll need—at least $10 million—to maintain their lifestyle in retirement. They wonder if and when their daughter will become self-sufficient and whether their son will also expect continued support after he graduates from college in a few years. “We’re stuck between a rock and a hard place, because we want our kids to be happy,” she says."


Not only are they fucking themselves retirement-wise.... the kids are getting fucked too because if they cannot fend for themselves without their parents. The pendulum is going to swing back the other way when the parents try to rely on the kids in retirement but realize the kids have nothing and cannot even support themselves. Soooooo sad.

retireatbirth

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2015, 04:56:56 PM »
They need $10 million?

partgypsy

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2015, 04:58:33 PM »
oy vey.


Great way to make you kids reliant on continual financial life support. An integral part of every 20 something person is, to go out and make it on your own. That is the only way they will learn to a) live within their means, and b) become self-sufficient.  Happiness is not the most important thing in life, at least they way the mom is defining it.  If she feels guilty about having a better lifestyle than her kids, then create a trust (they don't know about) that they can get when they are say 40 years old.

willow

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2015, 05:00:15 PM »
The parents are ruining their own retirement.

This gets talked about in Millionaire Next Door; the adult children who have their incomes supplemented will never go on to make as much as the adult children who don't.

REfinAnon

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2015, 05:27:05 PM »
Now this is what the antimustachian wall of shame is all about!

Hilarious.

Shame on both generations here.

Lanthiriel

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2015, 06:03:26 PM »
As a millennial (I'm 27), this is so crazy to me. I have been independent of my parents since I was 19. My middle sister (21) is currently finishing her bachelor's degree with no debt and about $15k in the bank. With her spending rate, this will easily last her a year, but she has a competitive degree and will be fine. My youngest sister is 19 and about to finish her AA at community college while living at home. She knows that she has to either go to a 4-year school to continue receiving support from my dad or move out on her own and be independent by this summer. Sure, we all received help from parents and grandparents to go to school, but it was pretty clear from the get-go that we had to choose affordable schools and expect to graduate and have the funds cut off. I couldn't imagine entering adulthood with the expectation that my parents would finance me indefinitely. Millennials get a lot of flak for being burdens on Boomers, but if you're taught to live your life with your hand out from a young age, what do you expect?

RFAAOATB

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2015, 06:26:27 PM »
If this is a problem the people doing it are doing it wrong.  How are multi-generational family dynasties created?  How can you give children enough money and opportunity to succeed, but still give them the intrinsic drive to achieve and not rely on hand outs?

Cutting them off and letting them fail below a certain threshold is not an option, after all children are your legacy and it would not be good to see your progeny end up in debt ridden apartment living poverty.  Much easier to hand out money, but harder to encourage wealth building.

I hope this will be a great conflict for me as it will mean I have enough money that I actually have to think about it.

Logic_Lady

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2015, 07:25:20 PM »
I'll say!

"A 48-year-old woman who lives in Westport, Conn., sheepishly admits that she and her husband, a finance executive, give their 22-year-old daughter tens of thousands of dollars each year to supplement the $30,000 she earns as a writer at a beauty website. The money covers her share of the rent on a Brooklyn (N.Y.) apartment, her frequent use of Uber car services, clothing purchases, and regular manicures and pedicures. “I tell my daughter, ‘We’re going to help you, but do you really need to buy $4 lattes every day and $14 kale salads?’ ” says the mother, who didn’t want to be named because she doesn’t want to embarrass her daughter or her husband. “When I was 22, I ate pizza every night.”
The couple have a comfortable six-figure income but haven’t purchased long-term care insurance for themselves or put aside all they’ll need—at least $10 million—to maintain their lifestyle in retirement. They wonder if and when their daughter will become self-sufficient and whether their son will also expect continued support after he graduates from college in a few years. “We’re stuck between a rock and a hard place, because we want our kids to be happy,” she says."


Is that supposed to be an example of frugality? Sounds a lot more expensive than cooking your own food, both in terms of upfront food cost and indirect costs due to health impact. I bet the parents continued this trend of ordering out and eating at restaurants when they got older (but at pricier places) and the kids never got used to routinely making their own meals. It's not the type of food that matters, it's where you get it--I had a kale salad yesterday that I made myself and cost me a heck of a lot less than $14. Sounds like these kids get by their spendiness honestly.


EricL

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2015, 07:56:14 PM »
10 Million???? That's 400K/year in retirement... What the fuck?

If they're currently making enough that they're able to support a $400k/year spending lifestyle AND support their daughter AND save, they're definitely not making a "comfortable" six-figure income...

KodeBlue

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2015, 10:02:19 PM »
The kids aren't ruining thier retirement. They are by not cuttting them off.

Sibley

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2015, 07:21:01 AM »
Two, possibly three generations are screwed. How sad.

netskyblue

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2015, 07:28:30 AM »
How did they raise their kids to have so little pride?  I was poor through college, but I never asked for a handout, and I certainly wouldn't have accepted if my parents had offered.  I'd have had to been REALLY bad off, like eating out of other people's garbage to survive, before I'd have swallowed my pride and taken money from someone.

powersuitrecall

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2015, 08:30:28 AM »
Quote
... her husband, a finance executive, ...

Haha ... this always gets me.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2015, 08:36:27 AM »
Also, why are people so afraid of their children that they can't say no to them?

RexualChocolate

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2015, 08:43:48 AM »
Unbelievably ridiculous. Most of the kids I know (in NYC especially) are still basically like this. Living 100k lifestyles on 30k salary.

Also conflating "happiness" with manicures and lattes is just fantastic. I'd be a lot happier if I wasn't sucking my parents dry.

Hey It's Me

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2015, 12:29:42 PM »
Unbelievably ridiculous. Most of the kids I know (in NYC especially) are still basically like this. Living 100k lifestyles on 30k salary.

Also conflating "happiness" with manicures and lattes is just fantastic. I'd be a lot happier if I wasn't sucking my parents dry.

Not only is it toxic for the parents and their daughter here, the daughter also has a negative impact on others in her community. Because she's willing to accept a below-market wage, she's driving down salaries in her field. Absolute rubbish.

As someone who works in advertising, I struggle with this myself. Co-workers on a similar income level to me are basically trust fund babies with multiple week-long destination vacations a year and an apartment in NYC, making roughly $50k/year; they also all go to $30 "Spin" classes 2-3 times per week, and each out for lunch most days. All this in NYC on $50k/year - something doesn't add up.

They're okay making this little because their parents are subsidizing their lifestyles, and as a result, wages for the industry decline.

ambimammular

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2015, 12:47:35 PM »
"...a very rich person should leave his kids enough to do anything but not enough to do nothing."

Warren Buffett (1930 -)

Source: A conversation with Warren Buffett: http://money.cnn.com/2006/06/25/magazines/fortune/charity2.fortune/index.htm

The guy is pretty insightful in more ways than one.

celticmyst08

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2015, 04:43:14 PM »
Makes me really grateful to my parents. I still remember when I was 17 or so I I overdrew my bank account, by around $200. It was the first time that had ever happened. I called my parents crying. I wanted them to help me fix it. They were very supportive, but they wanted me to understand the consequences of living above my means. So I put on my big girl pants, called the credit union, and they graciously transferred the debt into a payoff account. I signed an agreement to pay $25/month until it was gone.

I never overdrew my account again.

It makes me sad that so many parents baby their children well into adulthood. I'm not a parent, so I guess I don't have much credibility, but it seems to me that part of raising children is teaching them to become successful adults...

Sofa King

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2015, 09:18:22 AM »
MY wife's brother is 41 and have NEVER lived on his own ever. He has not worked a job in many years (he does not like to be told what to do) and counts on his mother for EVERYTHING. She gives him $$$$$ every month(and free place to live) because he doesn't have a job and he doesn't have a job because she gives his $$$$$ every month. It will be getting interesting in the next year or 2 tho because the mother is retiring and will have to live on a fixed income.  She is also moving in and away with her boyfriend and getting house with him, her son/man-child is gonna have to figure something out. Will be very funny to watch!! I already told my wife we aint gonna give him a place to live in our house and will be not be rewarding bad behavior by giving him $$$$$.  It's funny because the whole family has zero expectations of this guy to be a grown up man and tip toes around him and never says anything to him about being a bum because they dont want to upset him. LOL!!!!!   

RetiredAt63

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2015, 04:23:00 PM »
Stories like this make me wonder about the family dynamic when they were young.  Did BIL throw horrible tantrums and everyone gave in so he wouldn't do it?  Did he accumulate info they didn't want talked about and do emotional blackmail on his family?  So many interesting possibilities . . .

I trust your wife is in with you on not supporting him?  She is probably perfectly well aware of the family scam he has been pulling - if I were her I would resent it like mad.

It's funny because the whole family has zero expectations of this guy to be a grown up man and tip toes around him and never says anything to him about being a bum because they dont want to upset him. LOL!!!!!

Sofa King

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2015, 05:20:36 PM »
Stories like this make me wonder about the family dynamic when they were young.  Did BIL throw horrible tantrums and everyone gave in so he wouldn't do it?  Did he accumulate info they didn't want talked about and do emotional blackmail on his family?  So many interesting possibilities . . .

I trust your wife is in with you on not supporting him?  She is probably perfectly well aware of the family scam he has been pulling - if I were her I would resent it like mad.

It's funny because the whole family has zero expectations of this guy to be a grown up man and tip toes around him and never says anything to him about being a bum because they dont want to upset him. LOL!!!!!

She agrees with me that her brother is a loser and that her mother is enabling him.  And yes she does have alot of resentment towards him that he has no idea about.  The mother is doing her son no favors. She has failed at preparing him to be a grown man and to live in the adult world.  We both get along fine with her brother, how he lives his life doesnt effect us (besides my wife's resentment) so really at this point I look at it as entertainment! I tell my wife that one day she will get a "panic phone call" from him  that he has no money and no place to live. Even if his mother sets him up with a place to live after she retires he still has to find a job and keep it. This WILL NOT happen.  Just a matter of time for all this to go down!!!

MrsPete

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2015, 07:36:40 PM »
Also, why are people so afraid of their children that they can't say no to them?
It's not being afraid of their children; it's being afraid that their children will be unhappy -- and good parents aren't supposed to allow their children to be unhappy!  Or it's that they think their kids need a "leg up" to become successful, and they have a hard time drawing the line at where that "leg up" should stop. 

MoneyCat

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2015, 09:35:18 AM »
If someone is stupid enough to financially support their precious little snowflakes as adults, then they deserve what they get.  No sympathy from me at all.

fartface

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2015, 11:09:35 AM »
This is a good discussion. I have a 'man-child' cousin (age 38) who is a part-time roofer (seasonal work). He willingly takes unemployment during late fall/winter/early spring or as long as he can...EVERY YEAR instead of actually finding a way to earn income when he's not roofing in summer.

He has never left home. In winter he plays video games all day. Last year my aunt fell short when it came time to pay the $3000 property tax bill (she doesn't escrow). My mom had to loan her the money.

My mom - who has NEVER enabled her own children - got a smack down from me. Although this is her sister who she loves dearly, it doesn't change the fact that my mom is enabling my cousin by loaning my aunt money. I told this to my mom in no uncertain terms and I think then she saw the light.

This year my mom said she wouldn't have the money to lend if my aunt didn't have the tax payment. My aunt told my mom she was going to set up a bank account and her son start had to contribute $250/month into it so it can be set aside to pay taxes. We'll see if that happens...

Sad situation all the way around. My aunt has been taken advantage of big time by her son (who had a deadbeat Dad he never saw as a child). He's got his own 7 year old son who he is actually a better dad to than his own dad, so I'll give him that. I just can't get over how a grown, able bodied man can lay on the couch playing vids while his 60 year old mother toils at work 40+ hours/week.




maizefolk

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2015, 11:12:24 AM »
"A 48-year-old woman who lives in Westport, Conn., sheepishly admits that she and her husband, a finance executive, give their 22-year-old daughter tens of thousands of dollars each year to supplement the $30,000 she earns as a writer at a beauty website.

Earned income is always talked about as pre-tax, while parental subsidies come post-tax. Working for $30,000/year would come to $22,000 after taxes in NYC. The lowest number that would qualify as tens of thousands of dollars is $20,000. So it seems fair to say at least half the daughter's income comes from parents, not from working. Another way to look at it is that to provide the same lifestyle she's enjoying today the daughter would need to get her salary up to $65,000/year (and not increase her lifestyle at all as her salary rose). I don't know much about the market for beauty website content writers, but is that really likely to happen in the next several years?

Thanks for posting! This is exactly the sort of story I come to the antimustachian wall of shame and comedy to read.

Edit: Had missed a critical "not" when I first typed this
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 11:14:04 AM by maizeman »

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2015, 03:29:56 PM »
"A 48-year-old woman who lives in Westport, Conn., sheepishly admits that she and her husband, a finance executive, give their 22-year-old daughter tens of thousands of dollars each year to supplement the $30,000 she earns as a writer at a beauty website.

Earned income is always talked about as pre-tax, while parental subsidies come post-tax. Working for $30,000/year would come to $22,000 after taxes in NYC. The lowest number that would qualify as tens of thousands of dollars is $20,000. So it seems fair to say at least half the daughter's income comes from parents, not from working. Another way to look at it is that to provide the same lifestyle she's enjoying today the daughter would need to get her salary up to $65,000/year (and not increase her lifestyle at all as her salary rose). I don't know much about the market for beauty website content writers, but is that really likely to happen in the next several years?

Thanks for posting! This is exactly the sort of story I come to the antimustachian wall of shame and comedy to read.

Edit: Had missed a critical "not" when I first typed this

Great points, haha. No, a fashion blogger/writer is not likely to make $65k/year unless she was working full time at a top publisher.

ehqa353y1365

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2015, 06:33:47 PM »
how can a "finance executive" be this bad at math? maybe it really is true that idiots end up running everything.

MrsPete

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2015, 08:24:04 PM »
how can a "finance executive" be this bad at math? maybe it really is true that idiots end up running everything.
A "finance executive" certainly isn't bad at math, but he could be bad at personal finance and/or self-control.  My father was a CPA ... and he absolutely stunk at personal finance.  I know, ironic.  He worked for a private company for years, then went with a government office.  He was GOOD; he was a very honest person, and he caught embezzlers back in the days before computers, back when accountants literally worked with a black and a red pencil. 

But at home -- different story.  He wasn't too fussed about the bills being paid on time, would go to the grocery store and bring back $$$$ worth of stuff, alternated between buying us expensive gifts and forgetting our birthdays altogether, and never saved a penny. 

I guess the truth is that you can KNOW without being willing to DO. 

MrsCoolCat

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2015, 08:55:55 PM »
I knew a friend of a friend who was like this. Her parents were both nurses and subsidized her NYC expenses while she had some kinda BS job making way below yet spending way above her means. What gets to me is that my friend was stuck at her bday once at a club/restaurant inside a casino. Girl was late and went home in between just to change (because she's all about her style) and apparently though almost 30 still throws tantrums (even in public) if her parents don't give her what she wants. LOL... yikes. She does look good and has a nice pair of new tits but man, whoever marries her I'd like to know how that pans out.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2015, 09:22:15 AM »
Unbelievably ridiculous. Most of the kids I know (in NYC especially) are still basically like this. Living 100k lifestyles on 30k salary.


I've noticed this a lot, and not in NYC at all- but in middle america.  I think part of it is that my parents grew up poor, married middle class and ended up very upper middle class/rich.

Whereas, I grew up middle class/upper middle class.  So when I started off on my own, I now had to live a life less than what I was used to, my parents didn't- they were used to very little and grew.  But I understood that my salary was NOT what my parent's salary was, and so I adjusted and lived below the means I had now, and well below what my parents had provided for me!

When we were done apartment living, we moved into a house that was miniscule compared to what I grew up in. Most people I knew wanted houses much like what they grew up in, big open floor plans with granite in the kitchen, not realizing that that house wasn't their parent's starter home.  It was just what they knew as "normal".

I wonder if there is a better way to prepare people who grow up affluent for those "lean" years before they are affluent on their own. It's sad- but I think some people are honestly shocked they aren't making 100k right out of college, because their parents made that and more, they just think of that as the "normal" salarly, and not the "my father has been in this job for 30 years..."  It isn't entry level.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 11:22:42 AM by iowajes »

RFAAOATB

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2015, 11:06:59 AM »
I wonder if there is a better way to prepare people who grow up affluent for those "lean" years before they are affluent on their own. It's sad- but I think some people are honestly shocked they aren't making 100k right out of college, because their parents made that and more, they just think of that as the "normal" salarly, and not the "my father has been in this job for 30 years..."  It isn't entry level.

Are the only options to skip the "lean" years parental subsidy or mad tech money?  When I was young my parents went from apartment->condo->small house->medium house.  I eventually followed starting in an apartment and currently living in a condo making less money than my parents and want at least the medium house and transition to big house.  The step backwards is a giant pain in the ass keeping everyone from getting rich.

RexualChocolate

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2015, 12:06:21 PM »
For college grads, any job paying >40k in any city outside of DC/NYC/San Fran would mean the lean years are "skipped" provided debt levels are manageable.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2015, 12:13:37 PM »
For college grads, any job paying >40k in any city outside of DC/NYC/San Fran would mean the lean years are "skipped" provided debt levels are manageable.

Well, not really.  Lean, as in, truly lean, yes.  But lean as compared to their previous lifestyle granted to them by their parents- absolutely not. 

This is why, in my opinion, consumer debt is so rampant.  Young adults want to continue living a life that their parents were able to grant them, after having already climbed up the corporate ladder.  They don't realize you can't have the 3,000 square foot house and sports car and nice vacations when you're making 40k.

MooseOutFront

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2015, 12:14:28 PM »
From another perspective, this young lady is getting to follow her dream and write about fashion.  If she turns that into a career then she can thank her parents for helping her to avoid having to get a real job.  Don't get me wrong, this story is ripe with ridiculousness, but it just seems common for well to do parents to foot the bill for their kids following their dreams in their 20's.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2015, 12:18:43 PM »
The thing is, she will NOT turn it into a career because she doesn't need to. Millionaire Next Door had a great section on how "economic outpatient care" hamstrings adult children.

RFAAOATB

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2015, 12:40:36 PM »
Like the old joke:  I'm gonna tell my kids "You can be anything you want to be: a cardiologist, oncologist, or a pediatrician."

Tallgirl1204

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2015, 05:28:12 PM »
How did they raise their kids to have so little pride?  I was poor through college, but I never asked for a handout, and I certainly wouldn't have accepted if my parents had offered.  I'd have had to been REALLY bad off, like eating out of other people's garbage to survive, before I'd have swallowed my pride and taken money from someone.

I'm kind of with you there.  I used to ride my bike (no car) through inner city Minneapolis on my way from University to my house, and I passed a Catholic Church that served free dinner every night.  There was a point during that three years when I would think "this week I don't need to eat there, but maybe next week I will-- but I'm going to try like heck not to."  I was NOT going to ask my folks for help.

That said, I did know that I could ask my folks for money if I REALLY needed it, and I knew that church was there if I REALLY needed it-- and there is significant comfort in having a safety net-- but I learned a lot by not resorting to it.



RetiredAt63

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2015, 08:08:14 PM »
Or the classic child's line "I hate you.  You aren't my friend".  When my DD pulled that one on me, the standard comeback was "I am not your friend, I am your mother.  My  job is to make sure you grow up to be a competent self-reliant adult."  Too many parents seem to want to be their child's friend.  The goal is to like your children, and hope they like you, once they are grown. 

Of course the other classic line was "It isn't fair".  If it truly wasn't fair, she got some sympathy and then walked through the problem so she could come up with solutions.  Otherwise - Short answer - "Yes".  Long answer "You are right - you have all these advantages (and I listed them) while so and so has all these problems in her/his life."

Despite having me as a mother, DD has grown up to be that competent capable adult I was aiming for.  And she understands that there are no handouts, I am watching my money so she won't have to support me when I am old and feeble.

Also, why are people so afraid of their children that they can't say no to them?
It's not being afraid of their children; it's being afraid that their children will be unhappy -- and good parents aren't supposed to allow their children to be unhappy!  Or it's that they think their kids need a "leg up" to become successful, and they have a hard time drawing the line at where that "leg up" should stop.

Sibley

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2015, 11:34:40 AM »
Despite having me as a mother, DD has grown up to be that competent capable adult I was aiming for.  And she understands that there are no handouts, I am watching my money so she won't have to support me when I am old and feeble.

I'd say it's because she had you as a mother that she turned out that way. Good for you.

sheepstache

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2015, 12:24:16 PM »
The thing is, she will NOT turn it into a career because she doesn't need to. Millionaire Next Door had a great section on how "economic outpatient care" hamstrings adult children.

I will say though I've seen this "fake it til you make it" tactic work for some trustfunders. If someone is living a 65k lifestyle while writing for a fashion blog, people assume she must be really good at it and thus offer her more and better opportunities. Then there's the fact that people are unconsciously swayed by the general unstressed vibe she's able to project because she's sleeping a lot, going to yoga, wearing new clothes, whatevs, compared to the person who's putting in all their extra time temping to make rent.

Yeah yeah yeah, I know you can overcome these things, but the point is she doesn't have to and thus has an advantage over people who have the same level of character and competence as she does.

I know everyone loves the economic outpatient thing but sometimes it's just sour grapes. Some people with trustfunds do just fine in life because they didn't just get money from their family; they also got a bunch of behavioral advantages that aren't completely canceled out by whatever enervating effect the family welfare system supposedly has. Or because people with money are just more comfortable among their own kind and would rather work with them, etc.

But, yeah, probably in Brooklyn everyone will see through her and realize there's parental support going on.


galliver

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2015, 01:33:02 PM »
I wonder how much of the frivolous spending relates to values passed down from the parents...like if the mom gets expensive haircuts and mani/pedis, goes boutique shopping, and harps on her daughter's appearance, won't that (likely, though not 100% of the time) cause the daughter to pay more attention to such things and consider them "necessities"? I'm sure dads have their own expensive habits they could pass down to their kids...gadgets, hobby cars, etc.

Makes me really glad I grew up in apartments, sharing a room, with mismatched particle-board furniture. We took some really great trips, though, and my mom cooked tasty food that of course we didn't appreciate enough at the time. :)

On a different note, I feel like the study was a little skewed. If they surveyed 18-34 yr olds, it sounds like they'd include a lot of college students; which is a pretty different situation than someone working a FT job, and I personally wouldn't classify it is 'economic outpatient' in the same way. (As of 2009, 36% 18-24 yo are in college vs 7% of 25-49 yo, according to http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/index.php?measure=104; couldn't find the 25-35 yo data.)

sheepstache

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2015, 01:38:02 PM »
Unbelievably ridiculous. Most of the kids I know (in NYC especially) are still basically like this. Living 100k lifestyles on 30k salary.


I've noticed this a lot, and not in NYC at all- but in middle america.  I think part of it is that my parents grew up poor, married middle class and ended up very upper middle class/rich.

Whereas, I grew up middle class/upper middle class.  So when I started off on my own, I now had to live a life less than what I was used to, my parents didn't- they were used to very little and grew.  But I understood that my salary was NOT what my parent's salary was, and so I adjusted and lived below the means I had now, and well below what my parents had provided for me!

When we were done apartment living, we moved into a house that was miniscule compared to what I grew up in. Most people I knew wanted houses much like what they grew up in, big open floor plans with granite in the kitchen, not realizing that that house wasn't their parent's starter home.  It was just what they knew as "normal".

I wonder if there is a better way to prepare people who grow up affluent for those "lean" years before they are affluent on their own. It's sad- but I think some people are honestly shocked they aren't making 100k right out of college, because their parents made that and more, they just think of that as the "normal" salarly, and not the "my father has been in this job for 30 years..."  It isn't entry level.

Very true. Like, I'm not trying to dismiss OWS, but this is, like, how I react to most of the young people talking about how they're the 99%. It's like, no, no you are not, you are just poor like most young people.

To be fair, sometimes the expectations come from the parents who are terrified because their little babies are living in a shitty neighborhood so it becomes learned anxiousness.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 01:48:35 PM by sheepstache »

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2015, 01:43:55 PM »
If someone is stupid enough to financially support their precious little snowflakes as adults, then they deserve what they get.  No sympathy from me at all.

I share your lack of sympathy.

She is right to withhold her name out of embarrassment.  She should be embarrassed because she doesn't know how to say "no." 

Learning to say "no" was taught to me in elementary school when my mother noticed other kids and even other parents were trying to take advantage of my generosity.  She certainly said no to me all the time when I wanted stuff, and she took the time to teach me how to say no to others in a polite but direct way.  Thanks, ZamboniMom, for that valuable lesson! 

My own kids now know that "no" means "no" and that they had better not ask again. I have even witnessed them explaining this to other kids who were continuing to pester their parents after they said "no."

Case in point, little boy asks for candy in the check out line.  Mom says no.  Boy continues to whine and carry on that he wants candy.  He pulls at her arm.  He jumps up and down.
Enter little Zamboni who is at eye level of little boy:
"When your Mom says "no", she really means "no." You shouldn't ask her again."
"But I reeeallly want candy!!!"
"Please just stop.  You are making a fool of yourself and none of us want to hear it."

I should send him to lecture this Mom first (Just say no!) and then the daughter (No means no!  Stop carrying on and straighten up.  Please, really, you are embarrassing yourself.)

At the same time I try not to say no unless I really mean no.  If there is room to negotiate, I ask a follow up question instead.  Why do you want that?  What are the other options?  Have you researched this online?  How do you think you could earn money for that?  What advantage is there for me if I buy this for you?

And yes, plenty of subsidized rich kids do end up with plumb jobs due to their parents' connections and the fact that they don't have to struggle.  Others end up as perpetual money drains.  I suspect this young lady will be in the latter category.

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2015, 12:43:17 PM »
This article dumbfounded me.  It's unbelievable.  I would never offer that kind of support to my kids - it really would not do them any favours.

My kids are still relatively little (6 and 3), but even now with my six year old, we have conversations about why I don't buy string cheese or other ridiculous over-priced products, and how we look through the grocery flyers to see what's on sale.

If my kids got to the point where they were supposedly-independent but were asking me for help, the only way I would do that is if I could see that they genuinely were spending as little as possible and they actually weren't able to keep a roof on their heads or food on their plates.  No way in hell would I be subsidizing manis/pedis or a latte habit.  And then I would also see what I could do to help them increase their earning or further reduce their expenses. 

I have conversations with my eldest already about how she should consider spending her money (we haven't started an allowance yet, but she has money from the tooth fairy and some small gifts). She, of course, wants to go blow it all on cheap plastic crap at Dollarama and we've talked about how if she can't think of what it is she's 'has' to buy beforehand, then it really isn't something she needs and that she really shouldn't be spending her money on it.  We'll get more sophisticated as we get into allowances, etc.  I need her to get a little bit better at basic math first.  ;)

zephyr911

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2015, 10:31:49 AM »
As a millennial (I'm 27), this is so crazy to me. I have been independent of my parents since I was 19. My middle sister (21) is currently finishing her bachelor's degree with no debt and about $15k in the bank. With her spending rate, this will easily last her a year, but she has a competitive degree and will be fine. My youngest sister is 19 and about to finish her AA at community college while living at home. She knows that she has to either go to a 4-year school to continue receiving support from my dad or move out on her own and be independent by this summer. Sure, we all received help from parents and grandparents to go to school, but it was pretty clear from the get-go that we had to choose affordable schools and expect to graduate and have the funds cut off. I couldn't imagine entering adulthood with the expectation that my parents would finance me indefinitely. Millennials get a lot of flak for being burdens on Boomers, but if you're taught to live your life with your hand out from a young age, what do you expect?
The Boomers called: they said to stop undermining their smug stereotyping so they can go back to pillaging the nation's infrastructure for their six-figure retirement lifestyle.
--A jaded Gen-X'er

nobody123

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2015, 11:20:02 AM »
This article dumbfounded me.  It's unbelievable.  I would never offer that kind of support to my kids - it really would not do them any favours.

I can completely believe this article.  My BIL & SIL subsidized both of their kids well into their 20s so they could "chase their dreams" AFTER paying for the entirety of both of their college degrees.  By subsidize, I mean full on living expenses for one after they moved across the country, and paying for the second's masters degree in a foreign language (at least some was covered by scholarships) and multiple trips to foreign countries for study abroad opportunities.  First one finally got some pride around the age of 27 and cut the cord, but the second is still a mooch and seems to be in the 'student for life' mode.

My parents told me when I left for college a couple of days after turning 18 that as long as they were alive I would always have a place to sleep and food to eat if it ever came to that, but I was responsible for my choices and other needs/wants from there on out.  I appreciate that nudge towards adulthood more and more every day.

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2015, 11:22:24 AM »
My parents told me when I left for college a couple of days after turning 18 that as long as they were alive I would always have a place to sleep and food to eat if it ever came to that, but I was responsible for my choices and other needs/wants from there on out.  I appreciate that nudge towards adulthood more and more every day.
I was actually told at 17 that if I stayed in the house after high school, I'd be paying rent.
Fortunately, I was already lining up a full-ride ROTC scholarship out of state. :D

galliver

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Re: Kids Ruining Your Retirement?
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2015, 04:21:19 PM »
My parents told me when I left for college a couple of days after turning 18 that as long as they were alive I would always have a place to sleep and food to eat if it ever came to that, but I was responsible for my choices and other needs/wants from there on out.  I appreciate that nudge towards adulthood more and more every day.
I was actually told at 17 that if I stayed in the house after high school, I'd be paying rent.
Fortunately, I was already lining up a full-ride ROTC scholarship out of state. :D

I would have had crazy detrimental anxiety if I had been told I was unwelcome in my parents' home ever again. Mine were the same as nobody123's...I would never be homeless or hungry because I could live with them, but they wouldn't subsidize a lifestyle elsewhere post-college. Also there was a well-understood expectation to Do Something with my life, so bumming around at home having part-time jobs just really wasn't an option.