Author Topic: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!  (Read 11129 times)

obstinate

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Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« on: February 05, 2016, 09:07:05 AM »
Link.

I found this on a forum apparently dedicated to comfort enthusiasts. The OP was thinking of making a Mustachian decision to downgrade, but immediately a bunch of people jumped on the thread to talk about how important leather and heated seats are, and how unhappy he'd be if he were in a less expensive car. Also, it's apparently OK to just use as much gas as you want since it's cheap right now? Who needs the environment? Some really confused people on that site.

Dicey

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2016, 09:12:31 AM »
Why assume anyone, except the OP perhaps, is confused? The whole thread is a joke. It has to be.

True confessions time, folks. DH bought me an iPad for Christmas, which I promptly returned for a far less spendy, non "i" option. I'm still getting the hang of it. I'm a terrible typist and somehow thought a pad-like device would be easier to use. Still haven't gotten the hang of it. Now I'm making all kinds of new errors (hello auto complete). Twice my comments have landed in the wrong thread, completely due to operator error. In this case, I used the link and landed on a different thread.
Rather than delete what looks like a dick head comment, I'm editing, apologizing and taking my lumps. Mea culpable (fucking auto complete!). Meach culpable  (wtf?) Mea culpa.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 08:09:57 AM by Diane C »

mtn

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2016, 09:20:16 AM »
Lol @ OP in this thread. Hyperbole much?

He likes the Lexus. He's not in financial dire straits; heck, he's saving . He'd be unhappy in something else--I know: I tried to go from a Miata and a Corolla (wife's) to just a Corolla. That lasted all of 8 months--sorry, it just wasn't working out for a car guy. Had to replace it with an Acura (10 years used, of course). The biggest reason that I want to move? To get a car for myself.

As my grandpa always said, if it isn't illegal or immoral and you can afford it, treat yourself. Someone saving 50% of their income can probably afford whatever they're already affording.

greaper007

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2016, 09:21:10 AM »
The people offered fairly sound advice, he's saving lots of money, has a car that's paid off, and doesn't have to drive a ton.   If he really likes it, why not keep it?    Fuel burn is almost irrelevant when I paid 1.50 for gas the other day.

minimalist

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2016, 09:27:43 AM »
The Lexus is worth about $15k and is very reliable (it's made by Toyota). I don't think there would be significant savings from moving to a Fit.

tralfamadorian

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2016, 09:40:43 AM »
Is rubbernecking okay in this forum?  Seems a little rude...

I personally drive a lexus; it's been the lowest maintenance car I've ever owned.  My father has one with 350k+ miles on it and it's still going strong.  Once you've had them for awhile, the low price of keeping them going is a big perk.

aFrugalFather

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2016, 09:57:34 AM »
Is rubbernecking okay in this forum?  Seems a little rude...

I personally drive a lexus; it's been the lowest maintenance car I've ever owned.  My father has one with 350k+ miles on it and it's still going strong.  Once you've had them for awhile, the low price of keeping them going is a big perk.

However if maintenance and reliability is your only concern any Toyota would be just the same, and would have had a lower price to entry. 

mtn

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2016, 10:18:37 AM »
Is rubbernecking okay in this forum?  Seems a little rude...

I personally drive a lexus; it's been the lowest maintenance car I've ever owned.  My father has one with 350k+ miles on it and it's still going strong.  Once you've had them for awhile, the low price of keeping them going is a big perk.

However if maintenance and reliability is your only concern any Toyota would be just the same, and would have had a lower price to entry.

No, they wouldn't be just the same. They'd be close. Very similar. But those differences that do exist do matter to some folks (myself included). Especially if he's in an IS, GS, SC, or LS.

Not to mention, MOST Lexus's are made in Japan, whereas many Toyota's are made in the US. I personally think there is a build quality difference, but that is all anecdotal and not apples to apples.

Chris22

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2016, 10:34:31 AM »
Is rubbernecking okay in this forum?  Seems a little rude...

I personally drive a lexus; it's been the lowest maintenance car I've ever owned.  My father has one with 350k+ miles on it and it's still going strong.  Once you've had them for awhile, the low price of keeping them going is a big perk.

However if maintenance and reliability is your only concern any Toyota would be just the same, and would have had a lower price to entry.

No, they wouldn't be just the same. They'd be close. Very similar. But those differences that do exist do matter to some folks (myself included). Especially if he's in an IS, GS, SC, or LS.

Not to mention, MOST Lexus's are made in Japan, whereas many Toyota's are made in the US. I personally think there is a build quality difference, but that is all anecdotal and not apples to apples.

It's also a moot point by now.  He COULD HAVE saved money.  He didn't.  Doesn't mean trading out the car NOW saves any money necessarily.

One thing I see tossed around here that is a misconception is that if you have a car with 100k miles on it, you can swap it for another car with 100k miles on it, and you're net zero.

That's not necessarily true.  If you bought a car new or nearly new, and you have maintained it properly, that knowledge and history is worth something, versus a car with unknown history and the same miles. 

mtn

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2016, 10:43:35 AM »
Is rubbernecking okay in this forum?  Seems a little rude...

I personally drive a lexus; it's been the lowest maintenance car I've ever owned.  My father has one with 350k+ miles on it and it's still going strong.  Once you've had them for awhile, the low price of keeping them going is a big perk.

However if maintenance and reliability is your only concern any Toyota would be just the same, and would have had a lower price to entry.

No, they wouldn't be just the same. They'd be close. Very similar. But those differences that do exist do matter to some folks (myself included). Especially if he's in an IS, GS, SC, or LS.

Not to mention, MOST Lexus's are made in Japan, whereas many Toyota's are made in the US. I personally think there is a build quality difference, but that is all anecdotal and not apples to apples.

It's also a moot point by now.  He COULD HAVE saved money.  He didn't.  Doesn't mean trading out the car NOW saves any money necessarily.

One thing I see tossed around here that is a misconception is that if you have a car with 100k miles on it, you can swap it for another car with 100k miles on it, and you're net zero.

That's not necessarily true.  If you bought a car new or nearly new, and you have maintained it properly, that knowledge and history is worth something, versus a car with unknown history and the same miles.

Excellent point.

lbmustache

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2016, 11:52:24 AM »
Is rubbernecking okay in this forum?  Seems a little rude...

I personally drive a lexus; it's been the lowest maintenance car I've ever owned.  My father has one with 350k+ miles on it and it's still going strong.  Once you've had them for awhile, the low price of keeping them going is a big perk.

However if maintenance and reliability is your only concern any Toyota would be just the same, and would have had a lower price to entry.

No, they wouldn't be just the same. They'd be close. Very similar. But those differences that do exist do matter to some folks (myself included). Especially if he's in an IS, GS, SC, or LS.

Not to mention, MOST Lexus's are made in Japan, whereas many Toyota's are made in the US. I personally think there is a build quality difference, but that is all anecdotal and not apples to apples.

It's also a moot point by now.  He COULD HAVE saved money.  He didn't.  Doesn't mean trading out the car NOW saves any money necessarily.

One thing I see tossed around here that is a misconception is that if you have a car with 100k miles on it, you can swap it for another car with 100k miles on it, and you're net zero.

That's not necessarily true.  If you bought a car new or nearly new, and you have maintained it properly, that knowledge and history is worth something, versus a car with unknown history and the same miles.

I agree - and honestly this thread is appalling. Nice sense of community and support. Guy asks a legitimate question - hardly a "troll" thread - and gets made fun of. Didn't realize that MMM was a cult or religion where everything had to be followed exactly or you're banished to the gates of mindless consumerism hell.

And, from MMM himself:

Quote
You can dabble in luxury, without becoming a whining slave to it, just by understanding the concept that luxury is a drug.

...go ahead and dabble in luxury just as you might have some fun with the other bits of naughtiness. Think of it as part of an exploration of the full human experience: many luxury products are, after all, the culmination of the art and science and effort of your fellow humans. But approach it from a position of strength,  rather than the whining dependence that most of your fellow rich people develop.

I'll leave you to your high horse now.


TheAnonOne

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2016, 01:04:27 PM »
Meh... Everyone has their vices.

In the USA that vice is commonly cars. I don't save big money on cars, I have a small townhome, and keep other costs low, and save 50-70 percent of my income most months. I try to avoid the car/motorcycle topic, it is my vice.... and I derive a lot of fun and enjoyable times in and on both of those machines. (Autocross, long motorcycle rides)


EDIT: To clarify though, if you ask about the car here, I expect the correct answer, I wouldn't expect people to coddle up an expensive car as a viable option.

obstinate

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2016, 01:36:26 PM »
My scorn is for the responses. Of course the question is legitimate. I went ahead and clarified that in the original thread.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 01:44:07 PM by obstinate »

Jack

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2016, 02:25:29 PM »
Meh... Everyone has their vices.

In the USA that vice is commonly cars. I don't save big money on cars, I have a small townhome, and keep other costs low, and save 50-70 percent of my income most months. I try to avoid the car/motorcycle topic, it is my vice.... and I derive a lot of fun and enjoyable times in and on both of those machines. (Autocross, long motorcycle rides)


EDIT: To clarify though, if you ask about the car here, I expect the correct answer, I wouldn't expect people to coddle up an expensive car as a viable option.

The trouble is that the equipment necessary for autocross and long motorcycle rides can be acquired for $5k, tops. ($3K for an old Miata, $1.5K for a used motorcycle, $50 for an M2010 helmet, etc.)

Syonyk

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2016, 02:29:49 PM »
One thing I see tossed around here that is a misconception is that if you have a car with 100k miles on it, you can swap it for another car with 100k miles on it, and you're net zero.

That's not necessarily true.  If you bought a car new or nearly new, and you have maintained it properly, that knowledge and history is worth something, versus a car with unknown history and the same miles.

Seriously.  I've owned a lot of used vehicles of varying conditions, and without exception, they've all needed things to get up to my standards when I buy them.  Sometimes they've got fairly expensive issues that I think were the reason they were sold (a clutch that's a few thousand miles away from replacement with a totally cooked flywheel that can't be resurfaced), and sometimes they're just minor issues (glowplug relay on my truck, slight fluid leak, etc).  But in any case, it's going to be at least $500 to $1000 in work on a used vehicle to bring it up to my standards - and that's with me doing the labor!  That drops off rapidly after the first 6 months, but I assume the first 6 months with a new vehicle are going to involve a good bit of expense, especially if it's a cheaper vehicle.  And then there's the time to work all these things out, which generally involves driving it a lot.

Plus there's registration and sales tax to pay in most areas that you don't have to pay on renewing a vehicle.

I doubt you'll come out enough ahead to make it worth it without at least a $5k and probably closer to $10k difference in vehicle cost.

mtn

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2016, 03:00:02 PM »
Meh... Everyone has their vices.

In the USA that vice is commonly cars. I don't save big money on cars, I have a small townhome, and keep other costs low, and save 50-70 percent of my income most months. I try to avoid the car/motorcycle topic, it is my vice.... and I derive a lot of fun and enjoyable times in and on both of those machines. (Autocross, long motorcycle rides)


EDIT: To clarify though, if you ask about the car here, I expect the correct answer, I wouldn't expect people to coddle up an expensive car as a viable option.

The trouble is that the equipment necessary for autocross and long motorcycle rides can be acquired for $5k, tops. ($3K for an old Miata, $1.5K for a used motorcycle, $50 for an M2010 helmet, etc.)

Yeah, but the tires get expensive, and if you're really competitive you're going to have 3 sets to use at Nationals, so probably 5 to 8 sets a year, not to mention some rain tires; then if you want to drive it year round you'll have to include snow tires, if you don't you'll need another car...

Damn, I miss autocross. I think I'm going to make the wifey go this year.

Chris22

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2016, 03:44:27 PM »
Damn cone dodgers!

Jack

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2016, 03:51:50 PM »
Meh... Everyone has their vices.

In the USA that vice is commonly cars. I don't save big money on cars, I have a small townhome, and keep other costs low, and save 50-70 percent of my income most months. I try to avoid the car/motorcycle topic, it is my vice.... and I derive a lot of fun and enjoyable times in and on both of those machines. (Autocross, long motorcycle rides)


EDIT: To clarify though, if you ask about the car here, I expect the correct answer, I wouldn't expect people to coddle up an expensive car as a viable option.

The trouble is that the equipment necessary for autocross and long motorcycle rides can be acquired for $5k, tops. ($3K for an old Miata, $1.5K for a used motorcycle, $50 for an M2010 helmet, etc.)

Yeah, but the tires get expensive, and if you're really competitive you're going to have 3 sets to use at Nationals, so probably 5 to 8 sets a year, not to mention some rain tires; then if you want to drive it year round you'll have to include snow tires, if you don't you'll need another car...

Damn, I miss autocross. I think I'm going to make the wifey go this year.

Hmm... ok. I admit, I've only been into autocross for one season, and I've been using the same set of Falken Azenis for the whole season plus daily-driving, so it hasn't seemed that expensive to me.

(On a related note, I need new tires before the season starts. Do you know which ones are most competitive for an NA Miata in E-street? I'm either going to get one set of 14" ones for autocross and daily-driving, or a set of 14" and a set of 15" and swap for events.)

JLee

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2016, 07:13:25 AM »
My scorn is for the responses. Of course the question is legitimate. I went ahead and clarified that in the original thread.

Not getting enough support over there, so you figured you'd try to drum up some more attention by ridiculing members of this site somewhere they weren't likely to obviously find it?

It's a long fall from that horse you're on.

Autocross can be fairly inexpensive..depends how often and how hard you run.  Our LeMons race cars will burn a set of tires in 1 or 2 weekends, but the cost is spread out over ~4 drivers per car (14 hour races).

Meh... Everyone has their vices.

In the USA that vice is commonly cars. I don't save big money on cars, I have a small townhome, and keep other costs low, and save 50-70 percent of my income most months. I try to avoid the car/motorcycle topic, it is my vice.... and I derive a lot of fun and enjoyable times in and on both of those machines. (Autocross, long motorcycle rides)


EDIT: To clarify though, if you ask about the car here, I expect the correct answer, I wouldn't expect people to coddle up an expensive car as a viable option.

The trouble is that the equipment necessary for autocross and long motorcycle rides can be acquired for $5k, tops. ($3K for an old Miata, $1.5K for a used motorcycle, $50 for an M2010 helmet, etc.)

Yeah, but the tires get expensive, and if you're really competitive you're going to have 3 sets to use at Nationals, so probably 5 to 8 sets a year, not to mention some rain tires; then if you want to drive it year round you'll have to include snow tires, if you don't you'll need another car...

Damn, I miss autocross. I think I'm going to make the wifey go this year.

Hmm... ok. I admit, I've only been into autocross for one season, and I've been using the same set of Falken Azenis for the whole season plus daily-driving, so it hasn't seemed that expensive to me.

(On a related note, I need new tires before the season starts. Do you know which ones are most competitive for an NA Miata in E-street? I'm either going to get one set of 14" ones for autocross and daily-driving, or a set of 14" and a set of 15" and swap for events.)

I think my buddy is running Hankook RS3's, but he's also just running for fun (way too modded to run any normal class).
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 07:17:50 AM by JLee »

mtn

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2016, 07:41:32 AM »
My scorn is for the responses. Of course the question is legitimate. I went ahead and clarified that in the original thread.

Not getting enough support over there, so you figured you'd try to drum up some more attention by ridiculing members of this site somewhere they weren't likely to obviously find it?

It's a long fall from that horse you're on.

Autocross can be fairly inexpensive..depends how often and how hard you run.  Our LeMons race cars will burn a set of tires in 1 or 2 weekends, but the cost is spread out over ~4 drivers per car (14 hour races).

Meh... Everyone has their vices.

In the USA that vice is commonly cars. I don't save big money on cars, I have a small townhome, and keep other costs low, and save 50-70 percent of my income most months. I try to avoid the car/motorcycle topic, it is my vice.... and I derive a lot of fun and enjoyable times in and on both of those machines. (Autocross, long motorcycle rides)


EDIT: To clarify though, if you ask about the car here, I expect the correct answer, I wouldn't expect people to coddle up an expensive car as a viable option.

The trouble is that the equipment necessary for autocross and long motorcycle rides can be acquired for $5k, tops. ($3K for an old Miata, $1.5K for a used motorcycle, $50 for an M2010 helmet, etc.)

Yeah, but the tires get expensive, and if you're really competitive you're going to have 3 sets to use at Nationals, so probably 5 to 8 sets a year, not to mention some rain tires; then if you want to drive it year round you'll have to include snow tires, if you don't you'll need another car...

Damn, I miss autocross. I think I'm going to make the wifey go this year.

Hmm... ok. I admit, I've only been into autocross for one season, and I've been using the same set of Falken Azenis for the whole season plus daily-driving, so it hasn't seemed that expensive to me.

(On a related note, I need new tires before the season starts. Do you know which ones are most competitive for an NA Miata in E-street? I'm either going to get one set of 14" ones for autocross and daily-driving, or a set of 14" and a set of 15" and swap for events.)

I think my buddy is running Hankook RS3's, but he's also just running for fun (way too modded to run any normal class).

I've been out of it for a while; when I was running the RS3 v2's were the hot ticket. I think I heard through the grapevine that the Bridgestones (RE71???) are the best, but that may be size (of tire and car) dependent.

Making Cookies

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2016, 07:52:38 AM »
There is a car enthusiast website that attracts some customizers that I occasionally read looking for repair info.

I recall stumbling across a group of people that were so obsessed with keeping their car's looks fresh that they were re-customizing their car multiple times per year. I mean expensive tires and wheels multiple times per year, always selling the old versions off at a loss of course b/c used they were never worth what they were new.

These were 20-somethings driving 5 year old cars and floating alot of debt. They were the exception but not uncommon.

It was eye opening b/c my version of the hobby was getting my old cheap car fixed and then keeping it fixed. Being married with kids and a mortgage I was at a whole different stage in my life and no way could I (would I) spend that kind of money on wheels. I was just keeping a $3500 economy car doing the daily drives to work and back.

Chris22

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2016, 08:28:16 AM »
My scorn is for the responses. Of course the question is legitimate. I went ahead and clarified that in the original thread.

Not getting enough support over there, so you figured you'd try to drum up some more attention by ridiculing members of this site somewhere they weren't likely to obviously find it?

It's a long fall from that horse you're on.

Autocross can be fairly inexpensive..depends how often and how hard you run.  Our LeMons race cars will burn a set of tires in 1 or 2 weekends, but the cost is spread out over ~4 drivers per car (14 hour races).

Meh... Everyone has their vices.

In the USA that vice is commonly cars. I don't save big money on cars, I have a small townhome, and keep other costs low, and save 50-70 percent of my income most months. I try to avoid the car/motorcycle topic, it is my vice.... and I derive a lot of fun and enjoyable times in and on both of those machines. (Autocross, long motorcycle rides)


EDIT: To clarify though, if you ask about the car here, I expect the correct answer, I wouldn't expect people to coddle up an expensive car as a viable option.

The trouble is that the equipment necessary for autocross and long motorcycle rides can be acquired for $5k, tops. ($3K for an old Miata, $1.5K for a used motorcycle, $50 for an M2010 helmet, etc.)

Yeah, but the tires get expensive, and if you're really competitive you're going to have 3 sets to use at Nationals, so probably 5 to 8 sets a year, not to mention some rain tires; then if you want to drive it year round you'll have to include snow tires, if you don't you'll need another car...

Damn, I miss autocross. I think I'm going to make the wifey go this year.

Hmm... ok. I admit, I've only been into autocross for one season, and I've been using the same set of Falken Azenis for the whole season plus daily-driving, so it hasn't seemed that expensive to me.

(On a related note, I need new tires before the season starts. Do you know which ones are most competitive for an NA Miata in E-street? I'm either going to get one set of 14" ones for autocross and daily-driving, or a set of 14" and a set of 15" and swap for events.)

I think my buddy is running Hankook RS3's, but he's also just running for fun (way too modded to run any normal class).

I've been out of it for a while; when I was running the RS3 v2's were the hot ticket. I think I heard through the grapevine that the Bridgestones (RE71???) are the best, but that may be size (of tire and car) dependent.

Haven't bought tires in a while, but last I knew whatever the latest version of the Dunlop Star Spec (Direzzas?  I have the Direzza II on my S2000) or the Bridgestone RE-11 or RE-11R or whatever they're called these days were the best tires that aren't $400 Pilot Sport Cup IIs.

JLee

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2016, 08:50:58 AM »
Haven't bought tires in a while, but last I knew whatever the latest version of the Dunlop Star Spec (Direzzas?  I have the Direzza II on my S2000) or the Bridgestone RE-11 or RE-11R or whatever they're called these days were the best tires that aren't $400 Pilot Sport Cup IIs.
I have Direzza Z1 Star Specs on my MR2 - I love them. I think the ZII Star Specs are the current model.

mtn

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2016, 09:16:26 AM »
Haven't bought tires in a while, but last I knew whatever the latest version of the Dunlop Star Spec (Direzzas?  I have the Direzza II on my S2000) or the Bridgestone RE-11 or RE-11R or whatever they're called these days were the best tires that aren't $400 Pilot Sport Cup IIs.
I have Direzza Z1 Star Specs on my MR2 - I love them. I think the ZII Star Specs are the current model.

I had the RE-11's a while back, favorite tire of all time. Replaced them with Z1's (cause cheapness), they were OK but were louder and harsher. The SS's had more grip at the limit, but the RE 11's talked a lot more getting closer to it so it was a lot better for me, especially since the Miata was a handful with the suspension that was on it.

But those are all 2-3 generation old tires now. The Bridgestone has been replaced by the RE-11A, which was replaced by the RE-71R (although certain sizes of the prior two are still available). The Dunlop ZII is still available but no longer competitive. I think the top two tires are the RE-71 and the RS3 version 2. Maybe one of the Kumho's is still good, I'm not sure.

JLee

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2016, 09:19:23 AM »
Haven't bought tires in a while, but last I knew whatever the latest version of the Dunlop Star Spec (Direzzas?  I have the Direzza II on my S2000) or the Bridgestone RE-11 or RE-11R or whatever they're called these days were the best tires that aren't $400 Pilot Sport Cup IIs.
I have Direzza Z1 Star Specs on my MR2 - I love them. I think the ZII Star Specs are the current model.

I had the RE-11's a while back, favorite tire of all time. Replaced them with Z1's (cause cheapness), they were OK but were louder and harsher. The SS's had more grip at the limit, but the RE 11's talked a lot more getting closer to it so it was a lot better for me, especially since the Miata was a handful with the suspension that was on it.

But those are all 2-3 generation old tires now. The Bridgestone has been replaced by the RE-11A, which was replaced by the RE-71R (although certain sizes of the prior two are still available). The Dunlop ZII is still available but no longer competitive. I think the top two tires are the RE-71 and the RS3 version 2. Maybe one of the Kumho's is still good, I'm not sure.

Damn, so much has changed since I've been tire shopping. I'll have to keep that in mind when the time comes again.

Chris22

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2016, 09:34:39 AM »
Haven't bought tires in a while, but last I knew whatever the latest version of the Dunlop Star Spec (Direzzas?  I have the Direzza II on my S2000) or the Bridgestone RE-11 or RE-11R or whatever they're called these days were the best tires that aren't $400 Pilot Sport Cup IIs.
I have Direzza Z1 Star Specs on my MR2 - I love them. I think the ZII Star Specs are the current model.

I had the RE-11's a while back, favorite tire of all time. Replaced them with Z1's (cause cheapness), they were OK but were louder and harsher. The SS's had more grip at the limit, but the RE 11's talked a lot more getting closer to it so it was a lot better for me, especially since the Miata was a handful with the suspension that was on it.

But those are all 2-3 generation old tires now. The Bridgestone has been replaced by the RE-11A, which was replaced by the RE-71R (although certain sizes of the prior two are still available). The Dunlop ZII is still available but no longer competitive. I think the top two tires are the RE-71 and the RS3 version 2. Maybe one of the Kumho's is still good, I'm not sure.

Damn, so much has changed since I've been tire shopping. I'll have to keep that in mind when the time comes again.

Ditto.  I used to know all about this stuff because I was putting 20k miles a year on my S2000 and going through a set of rear tires every summer.  Now I drive that car maybe a tenth that much and have had the same tires for like 2.5-3 years.

JLee

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2016, 09:44:21 AM »
Haven't bought tires in a while, but last I knew whatever the latest version of the Dunlop Star Spec (Direzzas?  I have the Direzza II on my S2000) or the Bridgestone RE-11 or RE-11R or whatever they're called these days were the best tires that aren't $400 Pilot Sport Cup IIs.
I have Direzza Z1 Star Specs on my MR2 - I love them. I think the ZII Star Specs are the current model.

I had the RE-11's a while back, favorite tire of all time. Replaced them with Z1's (cause cheapness), they were OK but were louder and harsher. The SS's had more grip at the limit, but the RE 11's talked a lot more getting closer to it so it was a lot better for me, especially since the Miata was a handful with the suspension that was on it.

But those are all 2-3 generation old tires now. The Bridgestone has been replaced by the RE-11A, which was replaced by the RE-71R (although certain sizes of the prior two are still available). The Dunlop ZII is still available but no longer competitive. I think the top two tires are the RE-71 and the RS3 version 2. Maybe one of the Kumho's is still good, I'm not sure.

Damn, so much has changed since I've been tire shopping. I'll have to keep that in mind when the time comes again.

Ditto.  I used to know all about this stuff because I was putting 20k miles a year on my S2000 and going through a set of rear tires every summer.  Now I drive that car maybe a tenth that much and have had the same tires for like 2.5-3 years.

I think I'm at six years on this set...they might die of old age before I wear them out!

Jack

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2016, 09:49:06 AM »
Haven't bought tires in a while, but last I knew whatever the latest version of the Dunlop Star Spec (Direzzas?  I have the Direzza II on my S2000) or the Bridgestone RE-11 or RE-11R or whatever they're called these days were the best tires that aren't $400 Pilot Sport Cup IIs.
I have Direzza Z1 Star Specs on my MR2 - I love them. I think the ZII Star Specs are the current model.

I had the RE-11's a while back, favorite tire of all time. Replaced them with Z1's (cause cheapness), they were OK but were louder and harsher. The SS's had more grip at the limit, but the RE 11's talked a lot more getting closer to it so it was a lot better for me, especially since the Miata was a handful with the suspension that was on it.

But those are all 2-3 generation old tires now. The Bridgestone has been replaced by the RE-11A, which was replaced by the RE-71R (although certain sizes of the prior two are still available). The Dunlop ZII is still available but no longer competitive. I think the top two tires are the RE-71 and the RS3 version 2. Maybe one of the Kumho's is still good, I'm not sure.

The other issue is that cars have been coming with larger and larger wheels lately, so 185/60r14 is no longer all that common. So far, Dunlop ZII Star Spec is the only one I've been able to find in that size! (The Falken Azenis has been available recently at the regional tire chain I usually use, but when I checked again just now it no longer comes up in the search results.)

I'm starting to wonder if I'll have to switch to 15" wheels (which implies changing from E-street to STS, which implies installing sport springs). : (

mtn

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2016, 09:59:57 AM »
Haven't bought tires in a while, but last I knew whatever the latest version of the Dunlop Star Spec (Direzzas?  I have the Direzza II on my S2000) or the Bridgestone RE-11 or RE-11R or whatever they're called these days were the best tires that aren't $400 Pilot Sport Cup IIs.
I have Direzza Z1 Star Specs on my MR2 - I love them. I think the ZII Star Specs are the current model.

I had the RE-11's a while back, favorite tire of all time. Replaced them with Z1's (cause cheapness), they were OK but were louder and harsher. The SS's had more grip at the limit, but the RE 11's talked a lot more getting closer to it so it was a lot better for me, especially since the Miata was a handful with the suspension that was on it.

But those are all 2-3 generation old tires now. The Bridgestone has been replaced by the RE-11A, which was replaced by the RE-71R (although certain sizes of the prior two are still available). The Dunlop ZII is still available but no longer competitive. I think the top two tires are the RE-71 and the RS3 version 2. Maybe one of the Kumho's is still good, I'm not sure.

The other issue is that cars have been coming with larger and larger wheels lately, so 185/60r14 is no longer all that common. So far, Dunlop ZII Star Spec is the only one I've been able to find in that size! (The Falken Azenis has been available recently at the regional tire chain I usually use, but when I checked again just now it no longer comes up in the search results.)

I'm starting to wonder if I'll have to switch to 15" wheels (which implies changing from E-street to STS, which implies installing sport springs). : (

Do it right and go full CSP with some HoHo's. Purple crack baby!

Yeah, it was a pain. The SS's are usually the only one available. The Azenis was the tire that started the street tire craze; it hasn't been relevent for probably 10 or 15 years. Still a good option for the 14's though.

In any case, I recommend checking tire-rack. They'll ship whatever tire to your door or to the shop that you want to have install them.

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2016, 10:03:03 AM »

The other issue is that cars have been coming with larger and larger wheels lately, so 185/60r14 is no longer all that common. So far, Dunlop ZII Star Spec is the only one I've been able to find in that size! (The Falken Azenis has been available recently at the regional tire chain I usually use, but when I checked again just now it no longer comes up in the search results.)

I'm starting to wonder if I'll have to switch to 15" wheels (which implies changing from E-street to STS, which implies installing sport springs). : (

I used to get BFGoodrich KDW's for my 15 wheels (Civic). Now I had to get some Falken Azenis because they don't make the KDW's in my size anymore.  :(

There isn't very many good 15" options anymore either it seems like. I've been thinking of switching to some 16" wheels eventually.

mtn

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2016, 10:17:31 AM »

The other issue is that cars have been coming with larger and larger wheels lately, so 185/60r14 is no longer all that common. So far, Dunlop ZII Star Spec is the only one I've been able to find in that size! (The Falken Azenis has been available recently at the regional tire chain I usually use, but when I checked again just now it no longer comes up in the search results.)

I'm starting to wonder if I'll have to switch to 15" wheels (which implies changing from E-street to STS, which implies installing sport springs). : (

I used to get BFGoodrich KDW's for my 15 wheels (Civic). Now I had to get some Falken Azenis because they don't make the KDW's in my size anymore.  :(

There isn't very many good 15" options anymore either it seems like. I've been thinking of switching to some 16" wheels eventually.

Huh? First of all, wasn't the KDW from the early 2000's? That is OLD technology by now. Second of all, there are quite a few good 15 inch options.

BFGoodrich Rivals, Hankook RS3's, Bridgestone RE-71's, Direzza Star Specs ZII... and those are only the ones that are "Extreme Performance Summer".


Jack

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2016, 10:19:29 AM »
Do it right and go full CSP with some HoHo's. Purple crack baby!

Yeah, it was a pain. The SS's are usually the only one available. The Azenis was the tire that started the street tire craze; it hasn't been relevent for probably 10 or 15 years. Still a good option for the 14's though.

In any case, I recommend checking tire-rack. They'll ship whatever tire to your door or to the shop that you want to have install them.

Hah! If I wanted to be ridiculously un-competitive I'd just drive my TDI in FSP (I think that's where it would be, unless larger injector nozzles and an ECU mod to increase boost push it even higher than that).

Tire Rack is the place that only has ZII Star Specs. The other websites I just checked (Discount Tire Direct, Pep Boys, Kauffman Tire) have exactly nothing at all.

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2016, 10:56:00 AM »

The other issue is that cars have been coming with larger and larger wheels lately, so 185/60r14 is no longer all that common. So far, Dunlop ZII Star Spec is the only one I've been able to find in that size! (The Falken Azenis has been available recently at the regional tire chain I usually use, but when I checked again just now it no longer comes up in the search results.)

I'm starting to wonder if I'll have to switch to 15" wheels (which implies changing from E-street to STS, which implies installing sport springs). : (

I used to get BFGoodrich KDW's for my 15 wheels (Civic). Now I had to get some Falken Azenis because they don't make the KDW's in my size anymore.  :(

There isn't very many good 15" options anymore either it seems like. I've been thinking of switching to some 16" wheels eventually.

Huh? First of all, wasn't the KDW from the early 2000's? That is OLD technology by now. Second of all, there are quite a few good 15 inch options.

BFGoodrich Rivals, Hankook RS3's, Bridgestone RE-71's, Direzza Star Specs ZII... and those are only the ones that are "Extreme Performance Summer".

haha, damn I guess my performance tire buying gap was worse than I realized. I really had a few years off. Only recently have I started to slowly get back to spending some money on the car and I'm okay with admitting I'm not the most up to update on everything.

I just looked up some of the tires you guys mentioned and I'm glad to see there is more options that exist now. Thanks.


Syonyk

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2016, 11:21:14 AM »
Could be worse.  You could be buying truck tires.

A set of tires for my truck runs me nearly $2k (Toyo M608s).  However, they're high pressure, 19.5" highway tires (not the silly swampers or whatever people run on the street), and they should last ~60k miles, which is "basically forever" given how much I drive that vehicle.  It may be more of an issue once we start doing longer trips for car meets & such... even then, 60k miles is quite a few years.

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2016, 06:00:42 PM »
If you're not so into cars, flogging a dead equine is excellent frugal exercise.

BlueMR2

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2016, 03:52:05 PM »
I'm keeping my expensive (to maintain) AWD car because I enjoy it and I know I'll never buy an AWD car again due to that cost (those extra driven wheels really add to the costs over time).

Making Cookies

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2016, 09:30:18 PM »
How does AWD add too much to the TCO?

My tires lasted 81K miles this last time. Still on the original half shafts since the factory and approaching 300K miles. Needed new universal joints in the front to back driveshaft once during it's lifetime which amounted to $60. It seems to want new double pump fluid every 60K miles or so. That's cheap and I do it in the driveway.

What do you drive and why has it been expensive?

BlueMR2

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2016, 03:18:22 PM »
How does AWD add too much to the TCO?

My tires lasted 81K miles this last time. Still on the original half shafts since the factory and approaching 300K miles. Needed new universal joints in the front to back driveshaft once during it's lifetime which amounted to $60. It seems to want new double pump fluid every 60K miles or so. That's cheap and I do it in the driveway.

What do you drive and why has it been expensive?

Mitsubishi Eclipse.  I have the AWD version, my wife had the FWD version (replaced now with a much more practical Toyota Celica, but that's a whole 'nother story).  Subtract 5 mpg from the comparable FWD version just by being AWD.  Add a few thousand in purchase cost.  Not just a transaxle to maintain (a more complex one at that as it also includes a center diff), but also a transfer case and rear diff.  Extra bearings all up and down the way that get more load (due to higher weight of vehicle, by around 200 lbs) and fail earlier, etc.  All of that extra expense is a total waste too.  Around here they close the roads well before AWD is of any benefit in getting around in the snow/ice.  I drove a RWD (open diff) sportscar on Summer tires (old skool Potenza RE71s, not to be confused with the current generation RE71 which is far LESS weather capable) in the snow for years and never got stuck (although there were some pretty sketchy moments).  On snowtires that same sportscar is absolutely more than enough, a veritable snow beast.  I do love this AWD car and am continuing to maintain it for now, but knowing what I know now, I can't see myself ever being able to throw that kind of money at something so wasteful again.

Making Cookies

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2016, 07:18:39 PM »
Wow. My old CR-V has a 1 mpg difference between AWD and FWD. 4WD/AWD comes in handy b/c most of us run all-season tires year round and AWD wins over FWD on the hills around here (mid-south).

mtn

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2016, 08:33:00 AM »
In all fairness, the DSM cars and the CRV are on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum of AWD. The DSM's (Eclipse, Talon, Stealth) were awesome cars, but extremely maintenance intensive. The CRV is barely even AWD; it is an on demand system, when the car/wheels/abs decides that you need more traction, power is sent to the back wheels. I think it might not even engage over 20mph (this is all on the first/second generations). It really the perfect AWD system for probably 80-90% of the people who "need" AWD--it would be perfect for us, definitely--but not a true AWD for the discussion of a power loss/efficiency loss discussion.

It really depends on the vehicle for me. In general, if it is AWD or FWD, I'll take AWD. If it is AWD or RWD, I'll take RWD--unless it is a truck. Then I'll take AWD, because it isn't any fun to drive anyways and it isn't my daily driver, so I may as well have it be useful in a pinch. (Says the guy who has had 2 RWD trucks).


Chris22

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2016, 08:37:58 AM »
It really depends on the vehicle for me. In general, if it is AWD or FWD, I'll take AWD. If it is AWD or RWD, I'll take RWD--unless it is a truck. Then I'll take AWD, because it isn't any fun to drive anyways and it isn't my daily driver, so I may as well have it be useful in a pinch. (Says the guy who has had 2 RWD trucks).

Agreed.  RWD>AWD>FWD

I really don't like FWD, including my FWD daily driver.  I'm not a huge fan of AWD, but I'll take it to avoid FWD.

mtn

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2016, 09:01:33 AM »
It really depends on the vehicle for me. In general, if it is AWD or FWD, I'll take AWD. If it is AWD or RWD, I'll take RWD--unless it is a truck. Then I'll take AWD, because it isn't any fun to drive anyways and it isn't my daily driver, so I may as well have it be useful in a pinch. (Says the guy who has had 2 RWD trucks).

Agreed.  RWD>AWD>FWD

I really don't like FWD, including my FWD daily driver.  I'm not a huge fan of AWD, but I'll take it to avoid FWD.

In general I don't like FWD. It doesn't behave like it is supposed to. But there are exceptions--our TSX is excellent; the SAAB that I had was a great car overall and didn't really feel like FWD in normal driving. The Volvo V70 and the Maxima, on the other hand, were great cars but I just didn't like them. At all.

Chris22

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2016, 09:23:52 AM »
It really depends on the vehicle for me. In general, if it is AWD or FWD, I'll take AWD. If it is AWD or RWD, I'll take RWD--unless it is a truck. Then I'll take AWD, because it isn't any fun to drive anyways and it isn't my daily driver, so I may as well have it be useful in a pinch. (Says the guy who has had 2 RWD trucks).

Agreed.  RWD>AWD>FWD

I really don't like FWD, including my FWD daily driver.  I'm not a huge fan of AWD, but I'll take it to avoid FWD.

In general I don't like FWD. It doesn't behave like it is supposed to. But there are exceptions--our TSX is excellent; the SAAB that I had was a great car overall and didn't really feel like FWD in normal driving. The Volvo V70 and the Maxima, on the other hand, were great cars but I just didn't like them. At all.

My DD is a TSX.  It's okay, not great.  It has poor behavior over broken pavement or railroad tracks, and it has some torque steer (to the extent it has torque).  But I'm also spoiled because my fun car is an S2000, which is 10000x better to drive. 

slugline

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2016, 10:56:54 AM »
In all fairness, the DSM cars and the CRV are on the complete opposite ends of the spectrum of AWD. The DSM's (Eclipse, Talon, Stealth) were awesome cars, but extremely maintenance intensive. The CRV is barely even AWD; it is an on demand system, when the car/wheels/abs decides that you need more traction, power is sent to the back wheels. I think it might not even engage over 20mph (this is all on the first/second generations). It really the perfect AWD system for probably 80-90% of the people who "need" AWD--it would be perfect for us, definitely--but not a true AWD for the discussion of a power loss/efficiency loss discussion.

The "Real-Time 4WD" on the early CR-Vs (and on the old Civic wagons) is a totally "dumb" hydraulic system that activates the clutch pack to the rear differential based on the difference in rotating speeds between the front and back wheels. It activates at any speed as the hydraulics are always active -- even when the car isn't running. This is why Honda instructs owners to either tow them with all four wheels on the ground or on a flatbed truck, and never on two wheels only.

Making Cookies

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2016, 03:54:50 PM »
That is correct about the older CR-V AWD. Gets the job done for us though. Most of our traction needs when it's slick is below the speed limit anyhow. Its done its job through the snow, ice, mud and so forth. Doesn't get alot of credit but doesn't bother me.

I like RWD when there is an engine back there too. ;) Have driven plenty of RWD sports cars/antique cars and it can be alot of fun.

Pickups are nearly useless to me without 4WD/AWD (automatic 4WD). I've owned both flavors - 2WD and 4WD. I prefer a transfer case and 4WD-Low if I'm needing a truck to do HD work/hauling.

FWD is only welcome on grocery getter grade cars for me. We own several and they get the job done but they aren't much fun but I don't drive them that way anyhow.

albireo13

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2016, 07:56:36 PM »
Lexus = losers

greaper007

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2016, 08:10:00 PM »
Lexus = losers

I've yet to understand how people can be defined as winners or losers simply based on who manufactured their transportation.     Otherwise, I really like the Lexus brand, they're fairly simple to work on and seem to last 250,000+ miles without lots of major repairs.    You can't say the same thing about any of the German manufacturers.    I made the mistake of driving a volkswagen once, all my other cars have been Toyota, Honda or Nissan (90 Maxima, maybe one of the greatest cars ever created, I couldn't kill it).

soupcxan

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2016, 09:02:00 PM »

JLee

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2016, 09:02:08 AM »
Lexus = losers

If by "losers" you mean "People who choose exceptionally reliable transportation built to exacting standards," then I'm proud to be a loser.

patchyfacialhair

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Re: Keep your expensive car, don't even think about downgrading!
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2016, 10:03:08 AM »
Lexus = losers

If by "losers" you mean "People who choose exceptionally reliable transportation built to exacting standards," then I'm proud to be a loser.

+1

One of our cars is a paid off old Lexus RX with 175k on the odometer. It's one of the smoothest, most reliable cars I've driven, and the mechanic agrees. I hope I can see 300k before it dies.