Author Topic: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon  (Read 7398 times)

ProxyRetired

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Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« on: November 24, 2016, 05:24:59 AM »
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-cargo-pilots-strike-20161123-story.html

Quote
A Federal judge on Wednesday ordered pilots for a cargo airline that delivers Amazon packages to go back to work.

The judge in Cincinnati said that it was in the public's interest to end the strike because holiday shoppers expect to receive their packages on time.

"Imagine Christmas without Amazon!" U.S. District Court Judge Timothy S. Black wrote in his ruling.

Labor and contract issues aside, I find this statement to be rather... striking of how our economy has evolved, how commercialism rules above all, and how dependent as a culture we are on it. How did we ever get by without Amazon? Oh well, off to support Small Business Saturday :).

« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 05:30:05 AM by ProxyRetired »

Metric Mouse

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2016, 07:07:19 AM »
Aside from the labor issues, this is sad. Consumma' succka's rule all...

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2016, 11:27:40 PM »
The unions have really had their backs broken over the last eight to ten years.

Tjat

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2016, 04:48:49 AM »
To play devils advocate, should unions really schedule their strikes to deliver maximum public carnage? In my area the toll workers didn't show up for work on 4th of July weekend causing enormous backups and inconvenience. These folks Deciding not to work on Christmas is a similarly dick move

FIREby35

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2016, 08:05:02 AM »
As a lawyer, I tell you being a contrarian thinker (as is almost a pre-requisite for being Mustachian) in Court is extremely frustrating. The equivalent of "Imagine Christmas without Amazon" happens all day, every day, in lots of different contexts.

BTW, I can imagine Christmas without Amazon. It is called 2005.

GuitarStv

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2016, 09:03:22 AM »
As a lawyer, I tell you being a contrarian thinker (as is almost a pre-requisite for being Mustachian) in Court is extremely frustrating. The equivalent of "Imagine Christmas without Amazon" happens all day, every day, in lots of different contexts.

BTW, I can imagine Christmas without Amazon. It is called 2005.

Amazon was around in 2005.  I ordered stuff for my mom that year, and amazon was the cheapest place to get it.  :P

Prairie Stash

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2016, 11:41:16 AM »
As a lawyer, I tell you being a contrarian thinker (as is almost a pre-requisite for being Mustachian) in Court is extremely frustrating. The equivalent of "Imagine Christmas without Amazon" happens all day, every day, in lots of different contexts.

BTW, I can imagine Christmas without Amazon. It is called 2005.
Before Amazon was the Sears catalogue and other mail orders. 100 years ago you could order a house, a whole freaking house through mail order. http://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/cpm/catalog/cat2104e.shtml

Sure you might order through Amazon today, 100 years ago the catalogues were dual purpose. You could either buy sh** or use it in the outhouse...

gimp

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2016, 05:55:10 PM »
To play devils advocate, should unions really schedule their strikes to deliver maximum public carnage? In my area the toll workers didn't show up for work on 4th of July weekend causing enormous backups and inconvenience. These folks Deciding not to work on Christmas is a similarly dick move

I guess I'll come right out and say it, hypocrisy and all: I'm generally okay with unions, until they inconvenience me. Then they can go fuck themselves, and if they work for me the taxpayer, I'll be sure to vote against them at any opportunity. Get the fuck back to work.

/foam

frugalnacho

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2016, 10:43:46 AM »
To play devils advocate, should unions really schedule their strikes to deliver maximum public carnage? In my area the toll workers didn't show up for work on 4th of July weekend causing enormous backups and inconvenience. These folks Deciding not to work on Christmas is a similarly dick move

Exactly.  Limit your strike to off hours so as to not inconvenience the people you are striking against for minimal effect.

GuitarStv

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2016, 03:47:26 PM »
To play devils advocate, should unions really schedule their strikes to deliver maximum public carnage? In my area the toll workers didn't show up for work on 4th of July weekend causing enormous backups and inconvenience. These folks Deciding not to work on Christmas is a similarly dick move

Exactly.  Limit your strike to off hours so as to not inconvenience the people you are striking against for minimal effect.

Yep.  The best way to make sure that your issues are heard is to whisper them in a crowded room.  :P

MgoSam

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2016, 04:21:28 PM »
It's easy if you try....
-John Lennon (Imagine)

Metric Mouse

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2016, 01:52:46 AM »
To play devils advocate, should unions really schedule their strikes to deliver maximum public carnage? In my area the toll workers didn't show up for work on 4th of July weekend causing enormous backups and inconvenience. These folks Deciding not to work on Christmas is a similarly dick move

Toll workers should be pretty easy to replace.  Aircraft pilots, not so much.

And if refusing to deliver packages of Christmas goods qualifies as "public carnage ", I think a strike might be good. Certainly all this planes being grounded is good for the environment.

l2jperry

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2016, 04:15:26 AM »
As a seller on Amazon I can tell you what a nightmare this would be. It is crazy how irate customers can be this time of year. Every year I think I am prepared for the holiday rush, and every year I find out I wasn't as prepared as I should have been.

That being said, I don't think courts should be able to "order" any one back to work. Even the article says Amazon has contingency plans in place to deal with such things. It is their right to strike if they so chose.

It wouldn't effect my any way as I fulfill all my items, my guess is this would have only disrupted Amazon Fulfilled orders.

Chris22

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2016, 08:15:59 AM »
Christmas without Amazon would be basically terrible, since I'd have to actually go to stores to buy all the stuff we give people.  I don't necessarily support the courts ordering people to go to work, but I also don't agree with protecting their jobs if they chose to strike. 

Midwest

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2016, 08:40:35 AM »
The pilots in question are working at a facility which DHL closed and put thousands out of work about 10 years ago.  Amazon recently began using part of the facility and appear to be exploring using more.

I'm not sure what the concerns of the pilots are, but unless they are major, they appear to lack consideration for the community as a whole.  This could be huge for that area and the strike had the potential to disrupt that.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2016, 09:28:46 AM »
The pilots in question are working at a facility which DHL closed and put thousands out of work about 10 years ago.  Amazon recently began using part of the facility and appear to be exploring using more.

I'm not sure what the concerns of the pilots are, but unless they are major, they appear to lack consideration for the community as a whole.  This could be huge for that area and the strike had the potential to disrupt that.

Well, if Amazon treats their pilots like they treat the rest of their workers, the pilots are probably ahead of the curve in planning a strike.

Sibley

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2016, 01:56:20 PM »
Well, I've ordered everything already, and it's all going to show up this week. Or I already have it. A slight delay won't bother me at this point.

VeggieTable

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2016, 04:58:48 PM »
I can't help but chime in on this thread. My husband is a pilot at another airline that flies for Amazon, though he just recently switched from flying for a commercial regional airline.

In regards to the timing of the strike - pilot unions don't get to decide when to strike. In fact, the pilot group of ABX voted, by an overwhelming margin (99%), to strike way back in May. Due to the fact that transportation is considered an essential industry, pilot unions must be released by a judge to strike. The 6-month wait between voting and being released was actually relatively fast - the average is something like 2 years.

In my experience as an onlooker throughout my husband's career, pilots rarely agree to the tune of 99% on any issue. The airline must have been treating them really, really badly.

The pilot union struck to enforce the status quo - that is, the airline had been blatantly violating the contract for about a year. They were requiring pilots to fly during their vacation time without providing vacation at a later date, as required by the contract.

I can only imagine the airline has been running the pilots ragged for a while. They fly 20 airplanes for Amazon, in addition to some for DHL. Most passenger airlines need about 10 pilots per airplane; cargo airlines need about twice that. ABX employs 250 pilots, only about 10 pilots per airplane if you only count the Amazon flying. They are way understaffed.

My blood was boiling when I read that line "Imagine Christmas without Amazon!" It makes me livid that a judge thinks my husband's safety isn't as important as someone getting their Amazon package in 2 days instead of 5.

JLee

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2016, 05:56:03 PM »
Christmas without Amazon would be basically terrible, since I'd have to actually go to stores to buy all the stuff we give people.  I don't necessarily support the courts ordering people to go to work, but I also don't agree with protecting their jobs if they chose to strike.

And then pay shipping for non-local people (I have family all over the place, so that would add a substantial amount to my holiday spending).

Telecaster

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2016, 11:09:50 PM »
I don't know anything about the issues surrounding the strike, but the judge is right.  The convenience of getting all my shopping done in a couple hours in the comfort of my own home vs. venturing out into the madness is well, pretty awesome.  The judge is right on this point. 

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2016, 01:30:06 PM »
Unions are trying to ruin Christmas? Thank goodness that judge had some common sense lol

Metric Mouse

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2016, 08:11:29 PM »
Unions are trying to ruin Christmas? Thank goodness that judge had some common sense lol

Oh my. This sounds like a fake news story... but it's real.

Chris22

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2016, 07:42:56 AM »
My blood was boiling when I read that line "Imagine Christmas without Amazon!" It makes me livid that a judge thinks my husband's safety isn't as important as someone getting their Amazon package in 2 days instead of 5.

Amazon doesn't regulate the schedule of pilots, the FAA does.  I'm assuming Amazon is not violating any FAA regs, so the "my husband's safety!" thing is a scare tactic and a red herring.  Safety is not the issue here.  Your husband may have a valid gripe if he is getting screwed out of vacation time or something, but that's very different than his safety.

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2016, 07:53:05 AM »
My blood was boiling when I read that line "Imagine Christmas without Amazon!" It makes me livid that a judge thinks my husband's safety isn't as important as someone getting their Amazon package in 2 days instead of 5.

Amazon doesn't regulate the schedule of pilots, the FAA does.  I'm assuming Amazon is not violating any FAA regs, so the "my husband's safety!" thing is a scare tactic and a red herring.  Safety is not the issue here.  Your husband may have a valid gripe if he is getting screwed out of vacation time or something, but that's very different than his safety.

Fatigue and burnout are indeed safety issues.

Chris22

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2016, 07:55:54 AM »
My blood was boiling when I read that line "Imagine Christmas without Amazon!" It makes me livid that a judge thinks my husband's safety isn't as important as someone getting their Amazon package in 2 days instead of 5.

Amazon doesn't regulate the schedule of pilots, the FAA does.  I'm assuming Amazon is not violating any FAA regs, so the "my husband's safety!" thing is a scare tactic and a red herring.  Safety is not the issue here.  Your husband may have a valid gripe if he is getting screwed out of vacation time or something, but that's very different than his safety.

Fatigue and burnout are indeed safety issues.

Which are regulated by the FAA.  So you're either contending that A) the FAA rules aren't strict enough, or B) Amazon isn't abiding by FAA rules.  One is a pretty serious charge, the other doesn't seem like Amazon's fault or problem.

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2016, 12:28:42 PM »
Unions are trying to ruin Christmas? Thank goodness that judge had some common sense lol

Oh my. This sounds like a fake news story... but it's real.

I cant believe this took a court order to resolve..... Sounds like Amazon could just ship through someone else, also sounds like ABX pilots need to get on the MMM band wagon so they don't have to put up with this "bent over the barrel" situation.

JetBlast

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2016, 12:43:29 PM »
My blood was boiling when I read that line "Imagine Christmas without Amazon!" It makes me livid that a judge thinks my husband's safety isn't as important as someone getting their Amazon package in 2 days instead of 5.

Amazon doesn't regulate the schedule of pilots, the FAA does.  I'm assuming Amazon is not violating any FAA regs, so the "my husband's safety!" thing is a scare tactic and a red herring.  Safety is not the issue here.  Your husband may have a valid gripe if he is getting screwed out of vacation time or something, but that's very different than his safety.

Fatigue and burnout are indeed safety issues.

Which are regulated by the FAA.  So you're either contending that A) the FAA rules aren't strict enough, or B) Amazon isn't abiding by FAA rules.  One is a pretty serious charge, the other doesn't seem like Amazon's fault or problem.

The issue is between ABX and its pilots, not Amazon.  It is an separate company that Amazon has contracted with to carry shipments and has painted some aircraft in an Amazon paint scheme. 

And no, the FAA regulations are not strict enough.  Did you know that in the wake of the Colgan Air accident in Buffalo in 2009 the rest rules were revamped?  A new section of the Federal Aviation Regulations, Part 117, was created for these new rules.  The rules extended minimum rest times between duty periods, adjusted maximum cumulative flight time totals in a rolling 7, 28, and 365 day period, introduced cumulative duty time limits on a rolling basis, and adjusted duty period limits based on the human circadian rhythm.  They're not perfect but are a big improvement.  Sounds good, right? 

Through extensive lobbying the cargo carriers got themselves exempted from these changes.  That's right, the FAA has basically decided that the life of a cargo pilot is less important than a passenger carrying pilot.  They're hauling boxes so screw them.  So no, the FAA regulations for cargo pilots are not strict enough.

MgoSam

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2016, 12:51:41 PM »

Through extensive lobbying the cargo carriers got themselves exempted from these changes.  That's right, the FAA has basically decided that the life of a cargo pilot is less important than a passenger carrying pilot.  They're hauling boxes so screw them.  So no, the FAA regulations for cargo pilots are not strict enough.

+1 for the knowledge drop*!


*Assuming you are correct, don't know nearly enough about FAA regulations but seeing as how shady lobbying is, I have no difficulty believing what you wrote.

Gin1984

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2016, 01:04:45 PM »
Unions are trying to ruin Christmas? Thank goodness that judge had some common sense lol

Oh my. This sounds like a fake news story... but it's real.

I cant believe this took a court order to resolve..... Sounds like Amazon could just ship through someone else, also sounds like ABX pilots need to get on the MMM band wagon so they don't have to put up with this "bent over the barrel" situation.
They don't get paid during a strike so...I'm pretty sure their situation has nothing to do with their savings rate.

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2016, 01:42:08 PM »
Unions are trying to ruin Christmas? Thank goodness that judge had some common sense lol

Oh my. This sounds like a fake news story... but it's real.

I cant believe this took a court order to resolve..... Sounds like Amazon could just ship through someone else, also sounds like ABX pilots need to get on the MMM band wagon so they don't have to put up with this "bent over the barrel" situation.
They don't get paid during a strike so...I'm pretty sure their situation has nothing to do with their savings rate.

Some unions do.

But you're right, I was making an assumption that they don't have FU money.

bugbaby

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2016, 07:28:02 PM »
I'm also an avid Amazoner, but to me, this is judicial overreach that could set a worrying precedent

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Metric Mouse

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2016, 03:39:56 AM »
So I've just had an Amazon order delayed for a week or so due to "extreme weather". Didn't ruin Christmas - in fact, the delayed gratification made me appreciate what I do have even more!

No Name Guy

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2016, 08:53:38 AM »

Through extensive lobbying the cargo carriers got themselves exempted from these changes.  That's right, the FAA has basically decided that the life of a cargo pilot is less important than a passenger carrying pilot.  They're hauling boxes so screw them.  So no, the FAA regulations for cargo pilots are not strict enough.

Actually, the life of the pilots is worth the same regardless.  The question boils down to this:  If a pilot effs up, are they killing hundreds of innocents with them.

Cargo:  No.
Pax:  Yes.

If a pilot is unfit for duty, for what ever reason, they ought to refuse a mission.  That is part of their responsibility for putting on the hat and shoulder boards and taking the fat paycheck when senior.

Oh, and for the ignorant ("lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular")  on this thread:  Airline labor relations are governed by the same rules (more or less) that govern railroads, which are a whole lot different than say the auto unions and auto makers. Contracts don't expire, they become amendable.  You just can't strike (must follow a particular process) and yes, a judge can block a strike.

So, if you don't like this, get the Congress critters who passed this set of labor regulations to change the labor rules that govern airlines.

(Note:  In the business, not in management).

MandalayVA

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2016, 09:09:20 AM »
So I've just had an Amazon order delayed for a week or so due to "extreme weather". Didn't ruin Christmas - in fact, the delayed gratification made me appreciate what I do have even more!

Oddly enough, I got an Amazon package ... yesterday.  There are two distribution warehouses about twenty miles from here, so I guess they're using couriers.

JetBlast

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Re: Judge: Imagine Christmas without Amazon
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2016, 11:23:01 AM »

Through extensive lobbying the cargo carriers got themselves exempted from these changes.  That's right, the FAA has basically decided that the life of a cargo pilot is less important than a passenger carrying pilot.  They're hauling boxes so screw them.  So no, the FAA regulations for cargo pilots are not strict enough.

Actually, the life of the pilots is worth the same regardless.  The question boils down to this:  If a pilot effs up, are they killing hundreds of innocents with them.

Cargo:  No.
Pax:  Yes.

If a pilot is unfit for duty, for what ever reason, they ought to refuse a mission.  That is part of their responsibility for putting on the hat and shoulder boards and taking the fat paycheck when senior.

Oh, and for the ignorant ("lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular")  on this thread:  Airline labor relations are governed by the same rules (more or less) that govern railroads, which are a whole lot different than say the auto unions and auto makers. Contracts don't expire, they become amendable.  You just can't strike (must follow a particular process) and yes, a judge can block a strike.

So, if you don't like this, get the Congress critters who passed this set of labor regulations to change the labor rules that govern airlines.

(Note:  In the business, not in management).

If the cargo pilot effs up they can certainly injure or kill innocents.  There are people in those building and cars they fly over.  But why should it matter what's in the back of the plane?  If the rules were unsafe, they were unsafe.  I agree that if a pilot is unfit they should refuse to fly, but it doesn't change the fact that there shouldn't be separate rules.

The issue is the FAA has a dual mandate to both regulate and promote aviation.  Sometimes they find those two in conflict. In this case cargo airlines, which fly more at night, said the rule would cause too great a burden to their operations and the FAA gave them a pass.  The FAA loves to talk about having one level of safety in the industry, then turns around and exempts part of that industry from rest rule changes designed to prevent accidents.  In my opinion it's a bad decision.