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Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: FireLane on February 24, 2020, 05:49:08 PM

Title: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: FireLane on February 24, 2020, 05:49:08 PM
This story from Harvard Business Review was heartbreaking:

https://hbr.org/2020/03/whats-really-holding-women-back

It's a study about what causes gender imbalance in the workplace, especially at high-level senior positions that require long hours and round-the-clock availability. The common assumption is that women value family over work and don't want to make the extreme sacrifices these jobs demand, but the authors found that's not true. Men suffer from overwork and miss their families just as much as women do. The only difference is that men are culturally expected to suck it up.

Quote
Whereas firm members attributed distress over work/family conflict primarily to women, we found that many men were suffering, too. “I was traveling three days a week and seeing my children once or twice a week for 45 minutes before they went to bed,” one told us. He recalled a particularly painful Saturday when he told his son he couldn’t come to his soccer game. “He burst into tears,” the man said. “I wanted to quit then and there.”

or this one:

Quote
“When my first child was born, I got to carry her from the delivery room to the nursery. It’s almost like I could feel the chemicals releasing in my brain. I fell so chemically, deeply, in love with my daughter. I couldn’t imagine a world without her. I mean, here it was in [just] the first eight minutes of her life. So I can understand, ‘How can I possibly give this up and go back to work?’”

And what was his takeaway from this emotionally charged experience? A sense that he better understood the difficulties women face in trying to balance work and family! To banish his guilt and sadness about returning to his highly demanding workweeks, he projected his intense emotional experience onto the women at the firm—a move that allowed him to let go of those feelings while still identifying with them.

There's a cruel double standard perpetuated by many companies: they have work-from-home policies, flex time and other family-friendly accommodations, but penalize the employees - mostly women - who make use of them. They get passed over for raises and promotions because they're seen as less committed to the job. On the other hand, hard-working women who don't make use of these accommodations are also penalized, because bosses assume they're neglecting their families and that makes them bad role models!

The culture of insane hours and overwork hurts everyone, both the men who are suffering in silence and the women who are in a no-win situation. What these companies need is a little more Mustachianism, and more employees who are willing to push back and refuse outrageous demands:

Quote
If we want to solve this problem, we must reconsider what we’re willing to allow the workplace to demand of all employees. Such a reconsideration is possible. As individual families and employees push back against overwork, they will pave the way for others to follow. And as more research shows the business advantage of reasonable hours, some employers will come to question the wisdom of grueling schedules.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: ownmytime on February 24, 2020, 06:20:34 PM
I retired at 57 years old, after 32 years of work at the same organization, from a job I loved because my doctor told me it was killing me.  Unprompted by any mention of stress by me she told me "Every six months you continue at this level of stress is taking five years off your life."   I did continue working for two years after she told me this but then the exhaustion of 15 hour days - 12 hours a day working and 3 hours commuting plus texts in the evenings and weekends - caused me to walk away.  I still miss parts of my job but I feel better as I can now sleep (the stress would wake me up after a few hours of sleep), exercise regularly and have energy left for my family (husband and three teenage and young adult children).   When I was working I would see my family late in the evening but I was so tired and strung out I wasn't really present and engaged.  My husband told me if I didn't retire he would divorce me.
  I am skeptical change will ever occur regarding the insane hours we are "expected" to work as our culture glorifies working these hours. 
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: raincoast on February 24, 2020, 07:14:01 PM
The Millennial Revolution blog has an article about this (warning: profanity): https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/ (https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/)

Basically, employers like employees who are deep in debt, have expensive lifestyles, and live paycheque to paycheque, because they have to do whatever their manager tells them to do.

I think there's more to it than that - including technology, corporate downsizing, and a culture that glorifies "busyness" - but companies also do it because they can get away with it because people can't risk losing their jobs. I've heard partners at my firm say "we like people with big mortgages", and have been pressured to buy property in this VHCOL city.

Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Dave1442397 on February 25, 2020, 05:48:57 AM
I remember our first meeting with a high-level female executive at my company. One of the things she said that struck me as insanity on so many levels was "I know that if I have a question at 2:30am I can just call x and he'll have an answer for me!".

I don't care how much the job pays if A: I'm going to be awake at 2:30AM worrying about it, or B: If I'm the poor sucker getting called at 2:30AM to answer bs questions that could have waited until 9AM.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Malkynn on February 25, 2020, 06:21:20 AM
I remember our first meeting with a high-level female executive at my company. One of the things she said that struck me as insanity on so many levels was "I know that if I have a question at 2:30am I can just call x and he'll have an answer for me!".

I don't care how much the job pays if A: I'm going to be awake at 2:30AM worrying about it, or B: If I'm the poor sucker getting called at 2:30AM to answer bs questions that could have waited until 9AM.

When I started working for my current employer, she would send me emails and text messages after 10pm and I replied each time with "go to sleep".
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Ducknald Don on February 25, 2020, 06:53:43 AM
I've heard partners at my firm say "we like people with big mortgages", and have been pressured to buy property in this VHCOL city.

I've been on the receiving end of that as has my son in his current job.

One of the joys of being a saver is you can push back against that sort of bullshit. I'm convinced this is better for the employer as well, modern workplaces need independent thinkers.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: raincoast on February 25, 2020, 07:11:08 AM
I've heard partners at my firm say "we like people with big mortgages", and have been pressured to buy property in this VHCOL city.

I've been on the receiving end of that as has my son in his current job.

One of the joys of being a saver is you can push back against that sort of bullshit. I'm convinced this is better for the employer as well, modern workplaces need independent thinkers.

It also helps to understand the actual math of home ownership, rather than just looking at the big gains boomers made in the past.

Luckily I don’t get this same pressure from my family. My parents are in favour of home ownership, but they understand that the financial value of a home is the rent it saves you by living in it, and that home ownership costs way more than the mortgage. They accumulated their wealth through stock market investing, not a massive windfall on their primary residence.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: UndergroundDaytimeDad on February 25, 2020, 09:23:21 AM
The Millennial Revolution blog has an article about this (warning: profanity): https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/ (https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/)

I really enjoyed this article.  I tend to do these mental calculations to see how close to the wire someone lives. I also now realize why an old boss looked so confused when I pushed back on awful tasks.  Clearly she miscalculated.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: mm1970 on February 25, 2020, 12:05:43 PM
That was a fantastic article.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Warlord1986 on February 25, 2020, 12:18:55 PM
That article is a work of art.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Lucky13 on February 25, 2020, 01:32:35 PM
yes heartbreaking, really hits home, as just last night I learned a friend was sick... the last time I saw him 2 weeks ago, he was working until midnight and on weekend to meet a deadline, I'm not surprised it affected his health. Makes me so angry, but I understand when your job is on the line it's almost impossible to say "no" and managers are also under pressure from "upper management" or the big boss or whoever to enforce the insane work hours.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Wrenchturner on February 26, 2020, 10:06:04 AM
The Millennial Revolution blog has an article about this (warning: profanity): https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/ (https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/)

Basically, employers like employees who are deep in debt, have expensive lifestyles, and live paycheque to paycheque, because they have to do whatever their manager tells them to do.

I think there's more to it than that - including technology, corporate downsizing, and a culture that glorifies "busyness" - but companies also do it because they can get away with it because people can't risk losing their jobs. I've heard partners at my firm say "we like people with big mortgages", and have been pressured to buy property in this VHCOL city.

This is frustrating as a mustachian since employers have limited experience with staff that don't indebt themselves severely.  My attitude probably appears more cavalier than average and I think it disturbs them.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: BlueHouse on February 26, 2020, 11:55:18 AM
I remember our first meeting with a high-level female executive at my company. One of the things she said that struck me as insanity on so many levels was "I know that if I have a question at 2:30am I can just call x and he'll have an answer for me!".

I don't care how much the job pays if A: I'm going to be awake at 2:30AM worrying about it, or B: If I'm the poor sucker getting called at 2:30AM to answer bs questions that could have waited until 9AM.
Just curious, was the fact that the high-level executive was female have anything to do with the rest of the story?  I mean, I have had that same experience many many times with male execs, yet I never called them "a high level male executive" 
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: mm1970 on February 26, 2020, 12:37:21 PM
The Millennial Revolution blog has an article about this (warning: profanity): https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/ (https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/)

Basically, employers like employees who are deep in debt, have expensive lifestyles, and live paycheque to paycheque, because they have to do whatever their manager tells them to do.

I think there's more to it than that - including technology, corporate downsizing, and a culture that glorifies "busyness" - but companies also do it because they can get away with it because people can't risk losing their jobs. I've heard partners at my firm say "we like people with big mortgages", and have been pressured to buy property in this VHCOL city.

This is frustrating as a mustachian since employers have limited experience with staff that don't indebt themselves severely.  My attitude probably appears more cavalier than average and I think it disturbs them.
I'd say a very good percentage of my coworkers (including my boss) are super cheap like me (which is good and bad).

Not all of them though.  There is one particular 70 year old man who seems to think I should add a $500k second story to my house because it will pay for itself when I sell the house!  No it won't.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Wrenchturner on February 26, 2020, 02:54:29 PM
The Millennial Revolution blog has an article about this (warning: profanity): https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/ (https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/)

Basically, employers like employees who are deep in debt, have expensive lifestyles, and live paycheque to paycheque, because they have to do whatever their manager tells them to do.

I think there's more to it than that - including technology, corporate downsizing, and a culture that glorifies "busyness" - but companies also do it because they can get away with it because people can't risk losing their jobs. I've heard partners at my firm say "we like people with big mortgages", and have been pressured to buy property in this VHCOL city.

This is frustrating as a mustachian since employers have limited experience with staff that don't indebt themselves severely.  My attitude probably appears more cavalier than average and I think it disturbs them.
I'd say a very good percentage of my coworkers (including my boss) are super cheap like me (which is good and bad).

Not all of them though.  There is one particular 70 year old man who seems to think I should add a $500k second story to my house because it will pay for itself when I sell the house!  No it won't.

Seems weird that your coworkers are frugal.  What do you think the explanation is?  I've always found frugal people to be outliers.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: mm1970 on February 27, 2020, 01:54:36 PM
The Millennial Revolution blog has an article about this (warning: profanity): https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/ (https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/)

Basically, employers like employees who are deep in debt, have expensive lifestyles, and live paycheque to paycheque, because they have to do whatever their manager tells them to do.

I think there's more to it than that - including technology, corporate downsizing, and a culture that glorifies "busyness" - but companies also do it because they can get away with it because people can't risk losing their jobs. I've heard partners at my firm say "we like people with big mortgages", and have been pressured to buy property in this VHCOL city.

This is frustrating as a mustachian since employers have limited experience with staff that don't indebt themselves severely.  My attitude probably appears more cavalier than average and I think it disturbs them.
I'd say a very good percentage of my coworkers (including my boss) are super cheap like me (which is good and bad).

Not all of them though.  There is one particular 70 year old man who seems to think I should add a $500k second story to my house because it will pay for itself when I sell the house!  No it won't.

Seems weird that your coworkers are frugal.  What do you think the explanation is?  I've always found frugal people to be outliers.
- Bunch of engineers
- Most of whom were graduate students for a long time
- A fair % moved here from various other countries (Asia mostly, but also Europe)
- Startup company always trying to cut costs, so some self selection bias there also.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Wrenchturner on February 27, 2020, 02:10:41 PM
The Millennial Revolution blog has an article about this (warning: profanity): https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/ (https://www.millennial-revolution.com/freedom/the-fuck-over-ability-index/)

Basically, employers like employees who are deep in debt, have expensive lifestyles, and live paycheque to paycheque, because they have to do whatever their manager tells them to do.

I think there's more to it than that - including technology, corporate downsizing, and a culture that glorifies "busyness" - but companies also do it because they can get away with it because people can't risk losing their jobs. I've heard partners at my firm say "we like people with big mortgages", and have been pressured to buy property in this VHCOL city.

This is frustrating as a mustachian since employers have limited experience with staff that don't indebt themselves severely.  My attitude probably appears more cavalier than average and I think it disturbs them.
I'd say a very good percentage of my coworkers (including my boss) are super cheap like me (which is good and bad).

Not all of them though.  There is one particular 70 year old man who seems to think I should add a $500k second story to my house because it will pay for itself when I sell the house!  No it won't.

Seems weird that your coworkers are frugal.  What do you think the explanation is?  I've always found frugal people to be outliers.
- Bunch of engineers
- Most of whom were graduate students for a long time
- A fair % moved here from various other countries (Asia mostly, but also Europe)
- Startup company always trying to cut costs, so some self selection bias there also.
That makes sense.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: js82 on February 27, 2020, 06:42:18 PM
Seems weird that your coworkers are frugal.  What do you think the explanation is?  I've always found frugal people to be outliers.
- Bunch of engineers
- Most of whom were graduate students for a long time
- A fair % moved here from various other countries (Asia mostly, but also Europe)
- Startup company always trying to cut costs, so some self selection bias there also.

Sounds like mine, but in my case add that lots of them came from rural areas, where many grew up helping with DIY repairs.

Engineers tend to be pragmatists, and many have skillsets that translate well to saving money.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: vern on February 28, 2020, 08:16:03 PM
"The subs themselves made Johnstone possible by obeying his impossible orders."

Bukowski, Post Office
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: The_Big_H on February 29, 2020, 10:28:52 PM
Seems weird that your coworkers are frugal.  What do you think the explanation is?  I've always found frugal people to be outliers.
- Bunch of engineers
- Most of whom were graduate students for a long time
- A fair % moved here from various other countries (Asia mostly, but also Europe)
- Startup company always trying to cut costs, so some self selection bias there also.

Sounds like mine, but in my case add that lots of them came from rural areas, where many grew up helping with DIY repairs.

Engineers tend to be pragmatists, and many have skillsets that translate well to saving money.

engineering helps a bit, but not a whole lot, at least in my office.  It prevents a lot of utter financial recklessness, but just about as much of the usual upperish middle-class level consumerism. (expensive car on a low apr 5 yr note vs. say lease or 7+ year note w high apr)
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: partgypsy on March 01, 2020, 07:11:54 AM
There are actually quite a few frugal people in my department. I work in a research department for gov. It skews female with science, tech or social work backgrounds. Unlike the private university staff/faculty there is no culture of "status" consumption, or one upping people. There have been a number of my co-workers who have retired sooner than ave retirement age, but more 62 than extreme mustachian. I like where I work. There are lots of conversations in the break room about recipes (the majority brown bag it with homemade food).
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: SwordGuy on March 01, 2020, 07:17:07 AM
I remember our first meeting with a high-level female executive at my company. One of the things she said that struck me as insanity on so many levels was "I know that if I have a question at 2:30am I can just call x and he'll have an answer for me!".

I don't care how much the job pays if A: I'm going to be awake at 2:30AM worrying about it, or B: If I'm the poor sucker getting called at 2:30AM to answer bs questions that could have waited until 9AM.
I'm right there with you.

Years ago I was the manager of the programmers for a North American subsidiary of an International firm.  The CIO informed me he had ordered pagers for me and the other programmers.

I looked him in the eye and quietly said, "When I and my programmers write such bad code that we need to have pagers, **I** will find another line of work."   Then I just looked at him.

Never saw those damn pagers.

That is the power of FU money (and being damn good at a key job).
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 01, 2020, 10:32:13 PM
I remember our first meeting with a high-level female executive at my company. One of the things she said that struck me as insanity on so many levels was "I know that if I have a question at 2:30am I can just call x and he'll have an answer for me!".

I don't care how much the job pays if A: I'm going to be awake at 2:30AM worrying about it, or B: If I'm the poor sucker getting called at 2:30AM to answer bs questions that could have waited until 9AM.

When I started working for my current employer, she would send me emails and text messages after 10pm and I replied each time with "go to sleep".

I got myself in trouble by telling a physio who emailed me at 11pm that she was a fucking physio not a brain surgeon. Few people die through urgent lack of physio-fucking-therapy!
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Malkynn on March 02, 2020, 02:47:47 AM
I remember our first meeting with a high-level female executive at my company. One of the things she said that struck me as insanity on so many levels was "I know that if I have a question at 2:30am I can just call x and he'll have an answer for me!".

I don't care how much the job pays if A: I'm going to be awake at 2:30AM worrying about it, or B: If I'm the poor sucker getting called at 2:30AM to answer bs questions that could have waited until 9AM.

When I started working for my current employer, she would send me emails and text messages after 10pm and I replied each time with "go to sleep".

I got myself in trouble by telling a physio who emailed me at 11pm that she was a fucking physio not a brain surgeon. Few people die through urgent lack of physio-fucking-therapy!

Well...yeah.
Even I would fire you as a patient if you said that to me.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: AnnaGrowsAMustache on March 02, 2020, 04:07:32 AM
I remember our first meeting with a high-level female executive at my company. One of the things she said that struck me as insanity on so many levels was "I know that if I have a question at 2:30am I can just call x and he'll have an answer for me!".

I don't care how much the job pays if A: I'm going to be awake at 2:30AM worrying about it, or B: If I'm the poor sucker getting called at 2:30AM to answer bs questions that could have waited until 9AM.

When I started working for my current employer, she would send me emails and text messages after 10pm and I replied each time with "go to sleep".

I got myself in trouble by telling a physio who emailed me at 11pm that she was a fucking physio not a brain surgeon. Few people die through urgent lack of physio-fucking-therapy!

Well...yeah.
Even I would fire you as a patient if you said that to me.

Not her patient, actually a distant colleague that she really didn't need to email at all.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: norajean on March 02, 2020, 04:14:35 AM
I have a millennial friend who gets docked pay if he doesn’t answer a text message within 15 minutes any hour of the day. The guys texting him are old and in far away time zones.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Malkynn on March 02, 2020, 04:33:14 AM
I remember our first meeting with a high-level female executive at my company. One of the things she said that struck me as insanity on so many levels was "I know that if I have a question at 2:30am I can just call x and he'll have an answer for me!".

I don't care how much the job pays if A: I'm going to be awake at 2:30AM worrying about it, or B: If I'm the poor sucker getting called at 2:30AM to answer bs questions that could have waited until 9AM.

When I started working for my current employer, she would send me emails and text messages after 10pm and I replied each time with "go to sleep".

I got myself in trouble by telling a physio who emailed me at 11pm that she was a fucking physio not a brain surgeon. Few people die through urgent lack of physio-fucking-therapy!

Well...yeah.
Even I would fire you as a patient if you said that to me.

Not her patient, actually a distant colleague that she really didn't need to email at all.

Ah, that makes more sense.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Dicey on March 02, 2020, 06:48:36 AM
I have a millennial friend who gets docked pay if he doesn’t answer a text message within 15 minutes any hour of the day. The guys texting him are old and in far away time zones.
How can that be legal?

Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: RetiredAt63 on March 02, 2020, 03:15:23 PM
I have a millennial friend who gets docked pay if he doesn’t answer a text message within 15 minutes any hour of the day. The guys texting him are old and in far away time zones.

Does an autoreply saying "I am asleep, will reply when I wake up" count as a reply?
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: raincoast on March 02, 2020, 05:09:00 PM
I have a millennial friend who gets docked pay if he doesn’t answer a text message within 15 minutes any hour of the day. The guys texting him are old and in far away time zones.

If your business really requires someone to be available 24 hours a day, there’s a simple solution: hire someone to work the night shift or to be on call for defined hours (like doctors). Anything else is unreasonable.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Kyle Schuant on March 02, 2020, 05:52:00 PM
There's a cruel double standard perpetuated by many companies: they have work-from-home policies, flex time and other family-friendly accommodations, but penalize the employees - mostly women - who make use of them. They get passed over for raises and promotions because they're seen as less committed to the job. On the other hand, hard-working women who don't make use of these accommodations are also penalized, because bosses assume they're neglecting their families and that makes them bad role models!
Women do indeed suffer from a double bind.

Nonetheless, I have little sympathy for the men complaining in the article. If you want to excel in anything, you will sacrifice other areas of your life. Top athletes neglect their families, too, famous writers mostly have shit lovelives, and good fathers tend not to go far professionally. You can't do everything.

I had to choose between professional advancement (in small business) and family. I chose family. That's nobody's fault, that's just life, there are only so many hours in a day. No, you can't have it all, nor does anyone owe that to you.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: mm1970 on March 03, 2020, 01:36:04 PM
There's a cruel double standard perpetuated by many companies: they have work-from-home policies, flex time and other family-friendly accommodations, but penalize the employees - mostly women - who make use of them. They get passed over for raises and promotions because they're seen as less committed to the job. On the other hand, hard-working women who don't make use of these accommodations are also penalized, because bosses assume they're neglecting their families and that makes them bad role models!
Women do indeed suffer from a double bind.

Nonetheless, I have little sympathy for the men complaining in the article. If you want to excel in anything, you will sacrifice other areas of your life. Top athletes neglect their families, too, famous writers mostly have shit lovelives, and good fathers tend not to go far professionally. You can't do everything.

I had to choose between professional advancement (in small business) and family. I chose family. That's nobody's fault, that's just life, there are only so many hours in a day. No, you can't have it all, nor does anyone owe that to you.
Very good point to make today, even.  When the local news site says they are canceling the Gifted program at one of the schools, for incoming 3rd grade only.  Well, the reason they are doing it is that there were ONLY 11 students interested in enrolling.  Usually, there are 25 in a class and a 10-25 kid waitlist. 

Oh goodness the privileged mommas and daddas talking about how their exceptional children are/ were bored in regular classes - so much they had to work with their kids at home.  And this program, it saved them!   And not everyone can do private school for their exceptional children.

Yeah, I get it.  You can get free public education.  You can get excellent, tailored education to your children's special needs (whatever they may be).  If you hit the jackpot, you can get both.  (My kids are Gifted, we opted to stay at our home school, and our teachers have been fabulous at challenging them!)  But you are not OWED that.  One of the people complaining that not everyone can DO private school is a friend of mine - they've both got PhDs in engineering - i KNOW what they make.  You can afford private school.

There's a limited budget and I feel like it's MUCH better spent getting all the other kids to grade level.  Getting the extra support for the disabled students (THIS IS NOT CHEAP.)
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Kyle Schuant on March 04, 2020, 01:45:15 AM
Yes. Once my son started school, I quickly realised that it was not about helping each child reach their individual potential, it was about having them achieve certain standards. Around 1/3 of the class can achieve the standard on the first day before the teacher does anything with them; they are ignored. Around 1/3 will get there with a bit of help, so long as they show up to 80% or so of class days and don't have too much wax in their ears. That leaves 1/3 who are way below standard and need a lot of help or they'll have to grow up to be beauticians, members of parliament and football players; these are the ones the teachers spend most of their time on.


Which 1/3rd your child is in depends largely on you. Basically, if you read them a bedtime story each night, have educated adults visit the home and have the kids around while they talk, if you feed them three good meals a day, if you don't abuse alcohol or drugs and have a stable marriage - they're going to be top 1/3rd in their class.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Bloop Bloop on March 06, 2020, 05:42:13 AM
I have a millennial friend who gets docked pay if he doesn’t answer a text message within 15 minutes any hour of the day. The guys texting him are old and in far away time zones.

If your business really requires someone to be available 24 hours a day, there’s a simple solution: hire someone to work the night shift or to be on call for defined hours (like doctors). Anything else is unreasonable.

What is and isn't unreasonable is really for the employee to decide. As long as the parameters are well set out on advance and transparent, it's a free market.

I sometimes have to work long hours straight under immense pressure. Occasionally I have had to work from 4am-11pm one day and then 6am - 8pm the next. And that was full-on work, no screwing around. I did it for the money, it was fine. If I didn't want to do it I could have not accepted the assignment.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: moof on March 06, 2020, 10:50:32 AM
...
Which 1/3rd your child is in depends largely on you. Basically, if you read them a bedtime story each night, have educated adults visit the home and have the kids around while they talk, if you feed them three good meals a day, if you don't abuse alcohol or drugs and have a stable marriage - they're going to be top 1/3rd in their class.
Sorry, this generalization strikes me as rather callous.
Just know that among that bottom 1/3 are still a fair mix of kids with non-environmental road blocks, where kids struggle despite good parenting.  Good friends of ours have a daughter who has a couple learning disabilities despite two fully educated, highly involved, and dedicated parents.  There are laws in place to assure these kids get the necessary extra help they need.  Sadly getting a school to properly recognize/admit which kids are in this situation and need these extra dollars spent on them often requires dogged determination, lawyer fees, and an intimate knowledge of "The System".  Were this same kid in the hands of even slightly less stubborn parents she would likely have been a write-off to the school system rather than currently barely treading water.  Many other anecdotes are out there, many with years of heartbreaking parental efforts without any fairy tail ending in sight.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: mm1970 on March 06, 2020, 11:44:55 AM
...
Which 1/3rd your child is in depends largely on you. Basically, if you read them a bedtime story each night, have educated adults visit the home and have the kids around while they talk, if you feed them three good meals a day, if you don't abuse alcohol or drugs and have a stable marriage - they're going to be top 1/3rd in their class.
Sorry, this generalization strikes me as rather callous.
Just know that among that bottom 1/3 are still a fair mix of kids with non-environmental road blocks, where kids struggle despite good parenting.  Good friends of ours have a daughter who has a couple learning disabilities despite two fully educated, highly involved, and dedicated parents.  There are laws in place to assure these kids get the necessary extra help they need.  Sadly getting a school to properly recognize/admit which kids are in this situation and need these extra dollars spent on them often requires dogged determination, lawyer fees, and an intimate knowledge of "The System".  Were this same kid in the hands of even slightly less stubborn parents she would likely have been a write-off to the school system rather than currently barely treading water.  Many other anecdotes are out there, many with years of heartbreaking parental efforts without any fairy tail ending in sight.
I don't think he intentionally left out disabled kids.  He was making a generalization.

I've got friends who are both teachers...one of them went to Stanford and Berkeley.  One of their sons is gifted, the other is disabled (genetic defect), will ALWAYS need help, and his mom basically had to quit working when he was born. (He's a teenager now.)
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: Kyle Schuant on March 07, 2020, 07:09:08 AM
Yeah, the kid could be disabled, and the kid could, god forbid, get hit by a truck tomorrow. Bad things happen. Such is life.

I'm talking about the things you can control, not all the other nonsense life throws at us. I stand by what I said.

Guess what, if you as a parent of disabled kids... let's see, what was it? "if you read them a bedtime story each night, have educated adults visit the home and have the kids around while they talk, if you feed them three good meals a day, if you don't abuse alcohol or drugs and have a stable marriage" - they are going to be a lot better off than in the reverse situation.


Where are all the average kids? Nowadays everyone's kid is gifted, or disabled, or somehow both at once. Somehow we no longer have average kids, they're all special - autistic, allergic and asthmatic. What happened to the kid who just sorta paid attention in class and picked their nose during long division and was kind of mostly picked for the team and was happy to get a C, and more importantly their parent who sent them outside to play and told them to come back home before dinner with all the fingers and toes they left the house with?


This desire for every kid to be special is what leads to insane work hours. We have to work hard to send them to that private school, let's just hope it's not one where the teachers molest the students, eh? Look, work sensible hours, come home, talk to your spouse and kids, have a cup of tea and relax. You're probably never going to become CEO, make partner, get an industry award or get a Nobel Prize however long you spend at work.
Title: Re: Insane work hours hurt everyone
Post by: eyesonthehorizon on March 07, 2020, 11:10:22 AM
Contrast this to what you see anywhere in Europe, for instance, with shorter than 40-hour weeks and people actually going home when their shifts end, and you see that the work still gets done and there's still the ability to get family time with children and loved ones. It's a matter of priorities. The biggest impact I think mustachianism, or in general frugality, can have on society (outside of the beneficial impact of reduced consumption on the planet) is simply that employees are more likely to prioritize things that don't always correlate positively with income and in so doing gain power over employers to back away from profit-mindedness. Maybe that becomes a springboard to a greater plurality of employers, as people depart bad jobs to create good ones for themselves and potentially others as well.