Author Topic: If there is 1 article that demonstrates why millennials are hopeless with money:  (Read 7783 times)

Dabnasty

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...It's not that humans magically changed and that millennials are somehow genetically radically different from their parents.

...

Separating generations is useful to understand how the world is changing around us. Using generational boundaries to prop up one's own superiority is pointless and incorrect.

These points bear repeating.

Sounds like OP isn't quite getting why so many people take issue with the thread title.

I would add:
Looking at data to understand the world is useful.
Looking at data to understand the individual, not so much.
Looking at one individual to understand other individuals, definitely not.

flipboard

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I'm increasingly convinced that most of the people complaining about millenials... are the parents of  millenials.

Sow what you reap and all that.

Warlord1986

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I'm increasingly convinced that most of the people complaining about millenials... are the parents of  millenials.

Sow what you reap and all that.

Or are millennials themselves. Which is even more obnoxious.

Wrenchturner

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Haha my brother talks shit about millenials.  He was born in 86.

exterous

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I think the general issue with social media and its popularity is the scope and magnification effect. If you were keeping up with the Jones' before that was largely limited to your local area and, perhaps, some TV shows. When you knew Jane Jones from next door went on a vacation you might also get additional non-verbal, non-shared context from the house she lived in and the car she drove that would signal a modest lifestyle. Of course they may not signal that but that context is often completely missing from social media. Now though your scope is broadened to anyone in the world which removes non-shared context and adds tens of thousands more Jones' to keep up with. With this increase in scope of Jones' to keep up with comes a notably increased barrage of financial splurges, popular vacation spots etc. If each person you're following takes a single trip and posts about it, it can still seem like 'man, everyone is getting to so much travel so I should too and take more than 1 trip this year because everyone is traveling so much!' because you are following so many people. 

Sure some social media talks about retirement, early retirement etc but I'm guessing those are far less frequent because I'm assuming if most people were talking about how well they were saving for retirement we wouldn't have nearly the concern about 'working forever' that we seem to have.

To be clear, I am a millennial. I am trying to filter my Instagram feed so that most of it is wholesome content, like pets, and silly things, and non-consumerist rubbish. I could just drop off the platform altogether, but it serves some use for wholesome interactions.

I have no great issue with consuming, if you can afford it, but the self-serving vanity of millennial social media is really off-putting, even if it is not too hard to avoid.

Sounds like you still have some curating to do. I certainly don't see this "self-serving vanity of millennial social media" at all, not even trying to avoid it. My IG feed is full of millennials hustling to better themselves, celebrating progress in careers, life milestones, gym personal records, etc. These just happen to be the people that I've met in my life (I don't follow people I don't know). It seems like your self-hatred is turned up to 1000% and you are projecting it on a whole generation for some reason. It doesn't add anything to the conversation to constantly castigate a single age cohort, there are irresponsible people at all ages.

Edit// Striking out my own rule-breaking. Apologies, just annoyed at all the millennial-bashing that goes on around here /shrug

Curating doesn't really remove the effect so much as reduce your exposure to it. I'm not even on instagram but I can easily see the (very annoying) effect of it when traveling. That's more of a platform consequence than a generational issue though IMO.

Bloop Bloop

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To be clear, I am a millennial. I am trying to filter my Instagram feed so that most of it is wholesome content, like pets, and silly things, and non-consumerist rubbish. I could just drop off the platform altogether, but it serves some use for wholesome interactions.

I have no great issue with consuming, if you can afford it, but the self-serving vanity of millennial social media is really off-putting, even if it is not too hard to avoid.

Sounds like you still have some curating to do. I certainly don't see this "self-serving vanity of millennial social media" at all, not even trying to avoid it. My IG feed is full of millennials hustling to better themselves, celebrating progress in careers, life milestones, gym personal records, etc. These just happen to be the people that I've met in my life (I don't follow people I don't know). It seems like your self-hatred is turned up to 1000% and you are projecting it on a whole generation for some reason. It doesn't add anything to the conversation to constantly castigate a single age cohort, there are irresponsible people at all ages.

Edit// Striking out my own rule-breaking. Apologies, just annoyed at all the millennial-bashing that goes on around here /shrug

I'm not sure that career updates are any less vain than confected travel pics. By all means, enjoy travel and enjoy getting a promotion, but I don't see why you should share it publicly via Instagram (or even LinkedIn). It all smacks of a curated persona. Celebrate successes, celebrate failures, but do it authentically - without hashtags.

I mean, what does it even mean to say that your IG feed is full of millennials "hustling to better themselves"? I'm not doubting that that is the case, but why does anyone need to "hustle",  or do it publicly? Have we forgotten that hard work is its own reward and doesn't have to be Insta-captioned? Most things in life that require hard work can't be publicised in a shot anyway, unless you're referring to the "I have my laptop and a cup of coffee and a notebook artistically strewn on my desk" shot. Haha.

If you don't like me bashing a large part of our entitled, soft generation, too bad. Argue the point, rather than resorting to personal attacks.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 04:38:28 PM by Bloop Bloop »

PDXTabs

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If you don't like me bashing a large part of our entitled, soft generation, too bad. Argue the point, rather than resorting to personal attacks.

ZOMG, it's like you don't even see the irony.

AliEli

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It's this one.

https://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/life-and-relationships/behind-my-grin-and-designer-purchases-there-was-a-lie-20190822-p52jvz.html

By the way, the author is promoting some sort of book telling young people how to get into the property market. I will not name the author or the book as I don't want to give it oxygen. But the above excerpt shows how a person with a secure family, good health, and a steady job can nonetheless take all of it for granted and piss it up against the wall yet not even be ashamed of the goodwill, money and time wasted.

I'll bite.

I'm from Melbourne, roughly the same age, probably much the same social circles as the author. Honestly, I think this article and the book speaks more to a chasing a certain lifestyle than being a generational thing. "Keeping up with the Jones' " didn't start in the 1980s, so this is another iteration of a familiar trope, just told in a Melbourne-centric manner. She seems pretty self-absorbed, but again... self-absorption didn't start in the 1980s. It would be great to read a reflective finance book by a woman in my age range, but it doesn't sound like this is it so I won't be reading it. But props to her for writing it.

AliEli

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To be clear, I am a millennial. I am trying to filter my Instagram feed so that most of it is wholesome content, like pets, and silly things, and non-consumerist rubbish. I could just drop off the platform altogether, but it serves some use for wholesome interactions.

I have no great issue with consuming, if you can afford it, but the self-serving vanity of millennial social media is really off-putting, even if it is not too hard to avoid.

Sounds like you still have some curating to do. I certainly don't see this "self-serving vanity of millennial social media" at all, not even trying to avoid it. My IG feed is full of millennials hustling to better themselves, celebrating progress in careers, life milestones, gym personal records, etc. These just happen to be the people that I've met in my life (I don't follow people I don't know). It seems like your self-hatred is turned up to 1000% and you are projecting it on a whole generation for some reason. It doesn't add anything to the conversation to constantly castigate a single age cohort, there are irresponsible people at all ages.

Edit// Striking out my own rule-breaking. Apologies, just annoyed at all the millennial-bashing that goes on around here /shrug

I'm not sure that career updates are any less vain than confected travel pics. By all means, enjoy travel and enjoy getting a promotion, but I don't see why you should share it publicly via Instagram (or even LinkedIn). It all smacks of a curated persona. Celebrate successes, celebrate failures, but do it authentically - without hashtags.

I mean, what does it even mean to say that your IG feed is full of millennials "hustling to better themselves"? I'm not doubting that that is the case, but why does anyone need to "hustle",  or do it publicly? Have we forgotten that hard work is its own reward and doesn't have to be Insta-captioned? Most things in life that require hard work can't be publicised in a shot anyway, unless you're referring to the "I have my laptop and a cup of coffee and a notebook artistically strewn on my desk" shot. Haha.

If you don't like me bashing a large part of our entitled, soft generation, too bad. Argue the point, rather than resorting to personal attacks.


Mate, if you've got a problem with what people do on instagram, stop crapping your daks online over it and turn it off. Do what we used to do before social media - write your achievements and attach a photo to it, pin it to a magpie, set the magpie free, and get on with your day.

Bloop Bloop

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So your retort to the thread is to stop criticising something that I don't like - yet that is the whole point of this sub-forum - to point out silly monetary decisions that are worthy of criticism. If you weren't aware of that, perhaps read the road signs next time before you end up in the wrong spot again.

LonerMatt

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I'm not sure that career updates are any less vain than confected travel pics. By all means, enjoy travel and enjoy getting a promotion, but I don't see why you should share it publicly via Instagram (or even LinkedIn). It all smacks of a curated persona. Celebrate successes, celebrate failures, but do it authentically - without hashtags.

I mean, what does it even mean to say that your IG feed is full of millennials "hustling to better themselves"? I'm not doubting that that is the case, but why does anyone need to "hustle",  or do it publicly? Have we forgotten that hard work is its own reward and doesn't have to be Insta-captioned? Most things in life that require hard work can't be publicised in a shot anyway, unless you're referring to the "I have my laptop and a cup of coffee and a notebook artistically strewn on my desk" shot. Haha.

So you agree that people do have things worth celebrating but you don't like that they celebrate online? How is that related to resilience or softness?

Seems a weird axe to grind.

If something good happens, people are excited and buoyed up - that's an emotion worth spreading. Even if it's cliched.


Philociraptor

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I'm not sure that career updates are any less vain than confected travel pics. By all means, enjoy travel and enjoy getting a promotion, but I don't see why you should share it publicly via Instagram (or even LinkedIn). It all smacks of a curated persona. Celebrate successes, celebrate failures, but do it authentically - without hashtags.

I mean, what does it even mean to say that your IG feed is full of millennials "hustling to better themselves"? I'm not doubting that that is the case, but why does anyone need to "hustle",  or do it publicly? Have we forgotten that hard work is its own reward and doesn't have to be Insta-captioned? Most things in life that require hard work can't be publicised in a shot anyway, unless you're referring to the "I have my laptop and a cup of coffee and a notebook artistically strewn on my desk" shot. Haha.

So it sounds like your issue is with Instagram (and somewhat LinkedIn)? Easy solution: don't use it rather than be a complainypants on a slightly different type of online social media.

Also, I checked: Instagram and LinkedIn are used by more than just millennials, the latter being used increasingly as a job-search tool.

If you don't like me bashing a large part of our entitled, soft generation, too bad. Argue the point, rather than resorting to personal attacks.

Hey pot, this the kettle. You black?

All joking aside, the thread title is a generalized personal attack rather than a comment on a specific person's bad behavior. That's where I have an issue.

My argument to the point: you're using anecdotal evidence (link in OP) to generalize why a large cohort of humanity is "hopeless". I assert that it is a poor argument and counter with my equally anecdotal evidence that is my group of friends from that cohort, which is an equal yet poor argument. Here's some data showing the personal savings rate climbing up since around 2005, which happens to coincide with the oldest millennials entering the workforce. Coincidence? And here's a basic study of savings habits between generations that put millennials on top, though I will admit that one could argue that Gen X and Boomers who already have enough saved for retirement may start saving less and weighing down the average, but that would run counter to the common narrative of the coming retirement crisis.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 06:55:07 AM by Philociraptor »

OtherJen

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I'm not sure that career updates are any less vain than confected travel pics. By all means, enjoy travel and enjoy getting a promotion, but I don't see why you should share it publicly via Instagram (or even LinkedIn). It all smacks of a curated persona. Celebrate successes, celebrate failures, but do it authentically - without hashtags.

Isnít that the point of LinkedIn? If I hadnít updated my advanced degree, publications, and relevant career milestones as they happened, I seriously doubt that two of my big, long-standing clients would have cold-contacted me via LinkedIn messaging. Itís an online CV.

WhiteTrashCash

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I'm not sure that career updates are any less vain than confected travel pics. By all means, enjoy travel and enjoy getting a promotion, but I don't see why you should share it publicly via Instagram (or even LinkedIn). It all smacks of a curated persona. Celebrate successes, celebrate failures, but do it authentically - without hashtags.

Isn’t that the point of LinkedIn? If I hadn’t updated my advanced degree, publications, and relevant career milestones as they happened, I seriously doubt that two of my big, long-standing clients would have cold-contacted me via LinkedIn messaging. It’s an online CV.

That's one of the reasons why I am really confused with young people complaining about "economic opportunity". Due to my LinkedIn account, I get several unsolicited job offers per week. And that's just one networking website out of many. In pretty much any field of work, this is the greatest time in the history of the world to be selling your labor and building your capital. Technology has made everything so much easier. That's why I "facepunch" people for being "complainypants" about this issue.

I mean, I came from one of the worst starting points with one of the most underprivileged backgrounds in the nation, yet I've done extremely well. It's not because I was lucky; It's because I worked hard and used my gifts and talents to build marketable skills, and then I sold those skills to obtain capital. Anybody can do this. I'm not magical or anything.

OtherJen

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I'm not sure that career updates are any less vain than confected travel pics. By all means, enjoy travel and enjoy getting a promotion, but I don't see why you should share it publicly via Instagram (or even LinkedIn). It all smacks of a curated persona. Celebrate successes, celebrate failures, but do it authentically - without hashtags.

Isnít that the point of LinkedIn? If I hadnít updated my advanced degree, publications, and relevant career milestones as they happened, I seriously doubt that two of my big, long-standing clients would have cold-contacted me via LinkedIn messaging. Itís an online CV.

That's one of the reasons why I am really confused with young people complaining about "economic opportunity". Due to my LinkedIn account, I get several unsolicited job offers per week. And that's just one networking website out of many. In pretty much any field of work, this is the greatest time in the history of the world to be selling your labor and building your capital. Technology has made everything so much easier. That's why I "facepunch" people for being "complainypants" about this issue.

I mean, I came from one of the worst starting points with one of the most underprivileged backgrounds in the nation, yet I've done extremely well. It's not because I was lucky; It's because I worked hard and used my gifts and talents to build marketable skills, and then I sold those skills to obtain capital. Anybody can do this. I'm not magical or anything.

I was more specifically expressing confusion about someone complaining that people are using LinkedIn for its intended purpose. But yeah, I definitely agree that LinkedIn and tech in general are good resources.

Psychstache

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I'm not sure that career updates are any less vain than confected travel pics. By all means, enjoy travel and enjoy getting a promotion, but I don't see why you should share it publicly via Instagram (or even LinkedIn). It all smacks of a curated persona. Celebrate successes, celebrate failures, but do it authentically - without hashtags.

Isnít that the point of LinkedIn? If I hadnít updated my advanced degree, publications, and relevant career milestones as they happened, I seriously doubt that two of my big, long-standing clients would have cold-contacted me via LinkedIn messaging. Itís an online CV.

That's one of the reasons why I am really confused with young people complaining about "economic opportunity". Due to my LinkedIn account, I get several unsolicited job offers per week. And that's just one networking website out of many. In pretty much any field of work, this is the greatest time in the history of the world to be selling your labor and building your capital. Technology has made everything so much easier. That's why I "facepunch" people for being "complainypants" about this issue.

I mean, I came from one of the worst starting points with one of the most underprivileged backgrounds in the nation, yet I've done extremely well. It's not because I was lucky; It's because I worked hard and used my gifts and talents to build marketable skills, and then I sold those skills to obtain capital. Anybody can do this. I'm not magical or anything.

What if your gifts and talents don't align to what is marketable and obtains capital?

For the record, I have read your journal and I do think you are kind of magical. For every mass of people who start in your circumstances, only a handful make it out and become a success. It's why we make movies out of that kind of story, because it is not what is expected.

WhiteTrashCash

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I'm not sure that career updates are any less vain than confected travel pics. By all means, enjoy travel and enjoy getting a promotion, but I don't see why you should share it publicly via Instagram (or even LinkedIn). It all smacks of a curated persona. Celebrate successes, celebrate failures, but do it authentically - without hashtags.

Isnít that the point of LinkedIn? If I hadnít updated my advanced degree, publications, and relevant career milestones as they happened, I seriously doubt that two of my big, long-standing clients would have cold-contacted me via LinkedIn messaging. Itís an online CV.

That's one of the reasons why I am really confused with young people complaining about "economic opportunity". Due to my LinkedIn account, I get several unsolicited job offers per week. And that's just one networking website out of many. In pretty much any field of work, this is the greatest time in the history of the world to be selling your labor and building your capital. Technology has made everything so much easier. That's why I "facepunch" people for being "complainypants" about this issue.

I mean, I came from one of the worst starting points with one of the most underprivileged backgrounds in the nation, yet I've done extremely well. It's not because I was lucky; It's because I worked hard and used my gifts and talents to build marketable skills, and then I sold those skills to obtain capital. Anybody can do this. I'm not magical or anything.

What if your gifts and talents don't align to what is marketable and obtains capital?


Then make them align. Far too many people waste their talents and don't bother to develop their abilities when we are living in an age of wonders. I have artist friends who will never be successful despite being wildly talented, because they absolutely refuse to market themselves or use any of the hundreds of technology options available to build a clientele. Those are the kinds of people who get labeled as "born losers", but in reality, they are simply making an personal choice to be losers.

Wrenchturner

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Jonathan Haidt has some interesting commentary on this regarding the effects of social media on bullying, especially for young women, and the proliferation of outrage mobs and character assassination.  He doesn't point to millenials necessarily, but perhaps a younger group, the ones that grew up in their early teens with Facebook, etc.  I'm sure you can find some discussion about it on YouTube.

I believe his conversations with Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson both cover this.

TheGrimSqueaker

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I'm not sure that career updates are any less vain than confected travel pics. By all means, enjoy travel and enjoy getting a promotion, but I don't see why you should share it publicly via Instagram (or even LinkedIn). It all smacks of a curated persona. Celebrate successes, celebrate failures, but do it authentically - without hashtags.

Isnít that the point of LinkedIn? If I hadnít updated my advanced degree, publications, and relevant career milestones as they happened, I seriously doubt that two of my big, long-standing clients would have cold-contacted me via LinkedIn messaging. Itís an online CV.

That's one of the reasons why I am really confused with young people complaining about "economic opportunity". Due to my LinkedIn account, I get several unsolicited job offers per week. And that's just one networking website out of many. In pretty much any field of work, this is the greatest time in the history of the world to be selling your labor and building your capital. Technology has made everything so much easier. That's why I "facepunch" people for being "complainypants" about this issue.

I mean, I came from one of the worst starting points with one of the most underprivileged backgrounds in the nation, yet I've done extremely well. It's not because I was lucky; It's because I worked hard and used my gifts and talents to build marketable skills, and then I sold those skills to obtain capital. Anybody can do this. I'm not magical or anything.

What if your gifts and talents don't align to what is marketable and obtains capital?

For the record, I have read your journal and I do think you are kind of magical. For every mass of people who start in your circumstances, only a handful make it out and become a success. It's why we make movies out of that kind of story, because it is not what is expected.

Agree with your assessment about WhiteTrashCash-- whom I mentally labeled as "Buff Elvis" because I have a habit of making up a mental image of people whose writing I read online. The mental image is often wildly out of step with reality but it's a fun thing to do so I have no intention of stopping.

Not every gift is legally marketable. Plenty of people fuck well, for example, but most of them are in monogamous committed relationships. So only one person gets the benefit of their expertise unless they go in for amateur video, and no money changes hands unless they're play-acting.

When one's biggest talents and interests don't lead to income, the next best thing is to find a market for something you're capable of producing that pays enough to allow you to leave it early if necessary... and to keep your regular expenses low enough so that if you need to hit the slide one day it's financially viable. You don't really have to love your job to be competent at it. Nor do you have to be the best in the world. But reliability, reasonable skill and knowledge, and honesty are marketable attributes.

Bloop Bloop

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I'm not sure that career updates are any less vain than confected travel pics. By all means, enjoy travel and enjoy getting a promotion, but I don't see why you should share it publicly via Instagram (or even LinkedIn). It all smacks of a curated persona. Celebrate successes, celebrate failures, but do it authentically - without hashtags.

Isnít that the point of LinkedIn? If I hadnít updated my advanced degree, publications, and relevant career milestones as they happened, I seriously doubt that two of my big, long-standing clients would have cold-contacted me via LinkedIn messaging. Itís an online CV.

That's one of the reasons why I am really confused with young people complaining about "economic opportunity". Due to my LinkedIn account, I get several unsolicited job offers per week. And that's just one networking website out of many. In pretty much any field of work, this is the greatest time in the history of the world to be selling your labor and building your capital. Technology has made everything so much easier. That's why I "facepunch" people for being "complainypants" about this issue.

I mean, I came from one of the worst starting points with one of the most underprivileged backgrounds in the nation, yet I've done extremely well. It's not because I was lucky; It's because I worked hard and used my gifts and talents to build marketable skills, and then I sold those skills to obtain capital. Anybody can do this. I'm not magical or anything.

I was more specifically expressing confusion about someone complaining that people are using LinkedIn for its intended purpose. But yeah, I definitely agree that LinkedIn and tech in general are good resources.

LinkedIn is used for business purposes, yes. But there's a good and a bad way to do it. Good - update your profile, make it relevant, include a list of accomplishments. Also, tick the box that says you're open to recruiter requests and then talk to recruiters in private so that you get good job leads and lateral offers. All of that is subdued and under the radar. Bad - post "Privileged to have been awarded the Inaugural Award for Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Excellence award today. So humbled and blessed."

It's the flashiness and vanity that I don't like, on any platform.

StarBright

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LinkedIn is used for business purposes, yes. But there's a good and a bad way to do it. Good - update your profile, make it relevant, include a list of accomplishments. Also, tick the box that says you're open to recruiter requests and then talk to recruiters in private so that you get good job leads and lateral offers. All of that is subdued and under the radar. Bad - post "Privileged to have been awarded the Inaugural Award for Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Excellence award today. So humbled and blessed."

It's the flashiness and vanity that I don't like, on any platform.


Is that a tall poppy thing? In some parenting discussion groups I'm on I've heard people from Australia and the UK mention "Tall Poppies" and I've understood it to mean you shouldn't really acknowledge your accomplishments or talents (or at least you downplay them if other people mention them). Which, obviously for those of us in the US, is just so different from our corporate culture.

Wrenchturner

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Maybe one would be better off listing the cause of an award, rather than the award itself.

WhiteTrashCash

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Agree with your assessment about WhiteTrashCash-- whom I mentally labeled as "Buff Elvis" because I have a habit of making up a mental image of people whose writing I read online. The mental image is often wildly out of step with reality but it's a fun thing to do so I have no intention of stopping.


You are completely off-base here. My hair is naturally black. Elvis had to dye his hair that color. :-P

Imma

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LinkedIn is used for business purposes, yes. But there's a good and a bad way to do it. Good - update your profile, make it relevant, include a list of accomplishments. Also, tick the box that says you're open to recruiter requests and then talk to recruiters in private so that you get good job leads and lateral offers. All of that is subdued and under the radar. Bad - post "Privileged to have been awarded the Inaugural Award for Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Excellence award today. So humbled and blessed."

It's the flashiness and vanity that I don't like, on any platform.


Is that a tall poppy thing? In some parenting discussion groups I'm on I've heard people from Australia and the UK mention "Tall Poppies" and I've understood it to mean you shouldn't really acknowledge your accomplishments or talents (or at least you downplay them if other people mention them). Which, obviously for those of us in the US, is just so different from our corporate culture.

I'm in Europe and I recognize the mentality. In my country it has to do with Calvinist heritage: don't think you're better than other people, don't think you're good - we are all very bad by nature. It's called tall grass in my country, a similar thing in Scandinavia is Janteloven.

It would be uncommon in here for someone to post they've won this or that price, usually their employer of the price giver will do that. The winner can then share that message and picture and include something about how thankful they are and they couldn't have done it without their fantastic team. End result is the same but to announce directly that you've won an award is a bit of a faux pas.

dignam

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I actually read the article; say what you want about her, at least she's honest with herself.  She's got a leg up already on others that are in her financial situation.

RE: the "look at me, look at what I won/did/accomplished" culture; don't be so fast in grouping the entire US into that type of thinking.  There are areas that are far more reserved than others.  You don't hear about it much because that's the nature of being more reserved ;)  You always notice and hear the loudmouths/self-congratulators first.

PDXTabs

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I'm in Europe and I recognize the mentality. In my country it has to do with Calvinist heritage: don't think you're better than other people, don't think you're good - we are all very bad by nature. It's called tall grass in my country, a similar thing in Scandinavia is Janteloven.

It would be uncommon in here for someone to post they've won this or that price, usually their employer of the price giver will do that. The winner can then share that message and picture and include something about how thankful they are and they couldn't have done it without their fantastic team. End result is the same but to announce directly that you've won an award is a bit of a faux pas.

Fascinating. My heritage is mostly German and Scottish and sometimes those cultural norms bled through in my upbringing while other times a more American set of values prevailed. Even in business school today they teach about how modest Europeans are when receiving awards compared to Americans. I wonder if some of the discomfort that @Bloop Bloop experiences around this issue is actually a difference in cultural norms. My spouse and I actually have a bit of conflict over this as I want to act like a German American and she wants to act like an east coast American and I don't understand why she is trying to ruin the west coast!

Malkynn

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I'm in Europe and I recognize the mentality. In my country it has to do with Calvinist heritage: don't think you're better than other people, don't think you're good - we are all very bad by nature. It's called tall grass in my country, a similar thing in Scandinavia is Janteloven.

It would be uncommon in here for someone to post they've won this or that price, usually their employer of the price giver will do that. The winner can then share that message and picture and include something about how thankful they are and they couldn't have done it without their fantastic team. End result is the same but to announce directly that you've won an award is a bit of a faux pas.

Fascinating. My heritage is mostly German and Scottish and sometimes those cultural norms bled through in my upbringing while other times a more American set of values prevailed. Even in business school today they teach about how modest Europeans are when receiving awards compared to Americans. I wonder if some of the discomfort that @Bloop Bloop experiences around this issue is actually a difference in cultural norms. My spouse and I actually have a bit of conflict over this as I want to act like a German American and she wants to act like an east coast American and I don't understand why she is trying to ruin the west coast!

Yep, I was raised by Danes in Canada.
I deeply absorbed the whole not taking yourself and your own bullshit too seriously of the Danes, but I also absorbed the whole celebrate yourself north American culture. So I'm a funny combo that doesn't fit with either culture very well.

I enjoy people celebrating themselves and think it can be done from a place of deep humility. Kind of a "I'm so excited that I'm great, I just don't think I'm any more great than anyone else". It's the humility of knowing that we're all equal without the Calvinist "we all suck" part.

I fucking despise false modesty. I think that's the absolute worst of both worlds and have no patience for it. It's "I think I'm great, but I won't talk about it because I don't want to hurt your feelings that I'm greater than you".
Fuck that bullshit.

One of my very favourite hobbies is watching attractive people dance around the subject of their attractiveness as if they're supposed to be either completely unaware of it or pretend as if they're not as good looking as they are, lol.

This is especially hilarious since being attractive isn't an accomplishment, so it really should be the most benign thing to acknowledge, like eye colour.

I don't blame the people who do this awkward silly dance, they really don't have much of a choice. They get a lot of attention for their appearance, but God help them if they ever dare to recognize the beauty they see in the mirror every day.

There's a similar thing for intelligence, athletic prowess, likeability, humour, and financial success, but the appearance one is the most absurd, which is why it's my favourite example.

Whatever someone's culture though, being super judgemental isn't a cultural thing, it's a personality thing that transcends all culture.

A lot of people like to judge, and whatever their circumstance or cultural background, they'll find a way to judge people. It's like a sport.

I'm personally far more comfortable with someone who brags over someone who judges. In fact, I force my loved ones to brag. If I haven't seen someone in awhile, I make a point of making them list off all of the things they're most excited and proud to share with me in an uncensored brag-fest. It's a remarkably intimate experience, I highly recommend it.

dignam

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I'm in Europe and I recognize the mentality. In my country it has to do with Calvinist heritage: don't think you're better than other people, don't think you're good - we are all very bad by nature. It's called tall grass in my country, a similar thing in Scandinavia is Janteloven.

It would be uncommon in here for someone to post they've won this or that price, usually their employer of the price giver will do that. The winner can then share that message and picture and include something about how thankful they are and they couldn't have done it without their fantastic team. End result is the same but to announce directly that you've won an award is a bit of a faux pas.

Fascinating. My heritage is mostly German and Scottish and sometimes those cultural norms bled through in my upbringing while other times a more American set of values prevailed. Even in business school today they teach about how modest Europeans are when receiving awards compared to Americans. I wonder if some of the discomfort that @Bloop Bloop experiences around this issue is actually a difference in cultural norms. My spouse and I actually have a bit of conflict over this as I want to act like a German American and she wants to act like an east coast American and I don't understand why she is trying to ruin the west coast!

Interesting point; I'll add to my previous post that the US region I'm in is heavily German and Scandinavian influenced (my GF is from the most Danish city in America...mmmm Kringles....)

Bloop Bloop

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I'm in Europe and I recognize the mentality. In my country it has to do with Calvinist heritage: don't think you're better than other people, don't think you're good - we are all very bad by nature. It's called tall grass in my country, a similar thing in Scandinavia is Janteloven.

It would be uncommon in here for someone to post they've won this or that price, usually their employer of the price giver will do that. The winner can then share that message and picture and include something about how thankful they are and they couldn't have done it without their fantastic team. End result is the same but to announce directly that you've won an award is a bit of a faux pas.

Fascinating. My heritage is mostly German and Scottish and sometimes those cultural norms bled through in my upbringing while other times a more American set of values prevailed. Even in business school today they teach about how modest Europeans are when receiving awards compared to Americans. I wonder if some of the discomfort that @Bloop Bloop experiences around this issue is actually a difference in cultural norms. My spouse and I actually have a bit of conflict over this as I want to act like a German American and she wants to act like an east coast American and I don't understand why she is trying to ruin the west coast!

I actually read the article; say what you want about her, at least she's honest with herself.  She's got a leg up already on others that are in her financial situation.

RE: the "look at me, look at what I won/did/accomplished" culture; don't be so fast in grouping the entire US into that type of thinking.  There are areas that are far more reserved than others.  You don't hear about it much because that's the nature of being more reserved ;)  You always notice and hear the loudmouths/self-congratulators first.

The cultural discussion is interesting, and thanks to the several of you who have discussed it. I don't have any experience with continental Europe, but I know that in the UK (more so) and in Australia there is a sense that if you are good, you need not state it aloud. It is seen as  gauche and vulgar  - your work/reputation/charge-out rate ought to speak for itself. As someone else mentioned upthread, the best way to give praise is to sincerely praise those around you, as that sort of praise reflects well on everyone involved.

I don't have big issues with people thinking/knowing they're good, or even stating it, but if the latter, I would prefer it to be done matter-of-factly, rather than the strange humblebrag convolutions that tend to pepper social media and LinkedIn.

flipboard

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The cultural discussion is interesting, and thanks to the several of you who have discussed it. I don't have any experience with continental Europe, but I know that in the UK (more so) and in Australia there is a sense that if you are good, you need not state it aloud. It is seen as  gauche and vulgar  - your work/reputation/charge-out rate ought to speak for itself. As someone else mentioned upthread, the best way to give praise is to sincerely praise those around you, as that sort of praise reflects well on everyone involved.

I don't have big issues with people thinking/knowing they're good, or even stating it, but if the latter, I would prefer it to be done matter-of-factly, rather than the strange humblebrag convolutions that tend to pepper social media and LinkedIn.
Same views here - good work speaks for itself. But also, from a societal perspective, this seems healthier too - people tend to be more unhappy when there are visible disparities in society, so not flaunting wealth/achievements/etc. could easily result in society as a whole being happier.

After all, achievements/skills/wealth/etc. don't actually have much relevance beyond what they bring to you. If you feel the need to share that kind of stuff with the rest of the world, then what are you really compensating for? If achievements/skills/wealth affect your standing in society, that says a lot about the society you're in.

StarBright

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Bragginess might also be industry specific (in addition to regionally specific). My husband is in academia in the liberal arts, which is so frickin' competitive that I have seen webinars on the correct way to humble brag (there is definitely a way to do it wrong), and I am in a techish field that overlaps heavily with media and the arts where influencer-esque lifestyle brags seem to be becoming the norm because that is how people will remember your accomplishments.

But in my field everyone tries to charge crazy high rates (because it is pretty specialized) and the work quality varies drastically. So the best way to shout your bonafides is to brag the heck out of the successful projects you've worked on. A certain segment of our customers definitely check instagram first before ever looking at our website or even linked in.

FWIW, I also grew up in the Midwest (and agree that modesty is more important there) and had to learn self promotion when I moved to cities on the East Coast. 

I have to admit that I tend to side eye the influencer and millennial-hate posts because youngish people culture has become such a regular part of my job. When I am required to present an influencer esque lifestyle to my employer and customers I definitely understand how it can creep into regular life too.  All part  of making "my gifts and talents align" with the current market as someone said upthread.

Malkynn

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The cultural discussion is interesting, and thanks to the several of you who have discussed it. I don't have any experience with continental Europe, but I know that in the UK (more so) and in Australia there is a sense that if you are good, you need not state it aloud. It is seen as  gauche and vulgar  - your work/reputation/charge-out rate ought to speak for itself. As someone else mentioned upthread, the best way to give praise is to sincerely praise those around you, as that sort of praise reflects well on everyone involved.

I don't have big issues with people thinking/knowing they're good, or even stating it, but if the latter, I would prefer it to be done matter-of-factly, rather than the strange humblebrag convolutions that tend to pepper social media and LinkedIn.
Same views here - good work speaks for itself. But also, from a societal perspective, this seems healthier too - people tend to be more unhappy when there are visible disparities in society, so not flaunting wealth/achievements/etc. could easily result in society as a whole being happier.

After all, achievements/skills/wealth/etc. don't actually have much relevance beyond what they bring to you. If you feel the need to share that kind of stuff with the rest of the world, then what are you really compensating for? If achievements/skills/wealth affect your standing in society, that says a lot about the society you're in.

IDK, the fact that it's acceptable to shit all over people seems to say a lot about a society as well.

"I'm super proud of my latest accomplishment" is considered arrogant, but "everyone around me is a vain and annoying moron" isn't???

The way I see it, someone citicizing the population at large, while excluding themselves from the criticism, is really just an indirect way of stating that they're fundamentally superior.

I find a lot of criticism is just a meaner form of bragging.

Bloop Bloop

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Bragginess might also be industry specific (in addition to regionally specific). My husband is in academia in the liberal arts, which is so frickin' competitive that I have seen webinars on the correct way to humble brag (there is definitely a way to do it wrong), and I am in a techish field that overlaps heavily with media and the arts where influencer-esque lifestyle brags seem to be becoming the norm because that is how people will remember your accomplishments.

But in my field everyone tries to charge crazy high rates (because it is pretty specialized) and the work quality varies drastically. So the best way to shout your bonafides is to brag the heck out of the successful projects you've worked on. A certain segment of our customers definitely check instagram first before ever looking at our website or even linked in.

FWIW, I also grew up in the Midwest (and agree that modesty is more important there) and had to learn self promotion when I moved to cities on the East Coast. 

I have to admit that I tend to side eye the influencer and millennial-hate posts because youngish people culture has become such a regular part of my job. When I am required to present an influencer esque lifestyle to my employer and customers I definitely understand how it can creep into regular life too.  All part  of making "my gifts and talents align" with the current market as someone said upthread.

Yep, I agree with you that it is partly industry specific. For example, a lot of people would be surprised if, say, a surgeon was bragging about her success (or failure) rate or trying to solicit for business. In my line of work, till recently it was illegal to tout for work full stop, and it's still seen as a faux pas, or something only done by sketchy operators. But in other fields, where word of mouth is less strong and where your product is more tangible, then crass advertising might be necessary. Although, I would still say that this does not excuse trying to justify poor financial choices by reference to lifestyle advertising, since you don't make money off your lifestyle unless you are in the 0.01% of influencers.


The cultural discussion is interesting, and thanks to the several of you who have discussed it. I don't have any experience with continental Europe, but I know that in the UK (more so) and in Australia there is a sense that if you are good, you need not state it aloud. It is seen as  gauche and vulgar  - your work/reputation/charge-out rate ought to speak for itself. As someone else mentioned upthread, the best way to give praise is to sincerely praise those around you, as that sort of praise reflects well on everyone involved.

I don't have big issues with people thinking/knowing they're good, or even stating it, but if the latter, I would prefer it to be done matter-of-factly, rather than the strange humblebrag convolutions that tend to pepper social media and LinkedIn.
Same views here - good work speaks for itself. But also, from a societal perspective, this seems healthier too - people tend to be more unhappy when there are visible disparities in society, so not flaunting wealth/achievements/etc. could easily result in society as a whole being happier.

After all, achievements/skills/wealth/etc. don't actually have much relevance beyond what they bring to you. If you feel the need to share that kind of stuff with the rest of the world, then what are you really compensating for? If achievements/skills/wealth affect your standing in society, that says a lot about the society you're in.

IDK, the fact that it's acceptable to shit all over people seems to say a lot about a society as well.

"I'm super proud of my latest accomplishment" is considered arrogant, but "everyone around me is a vain and annoying moron" isn't???

The way I see it, someone citicizing the population at large, while excluding themselves from the criticism, is really just an indirect way of stating that they're fundamentally superior.

I find a lot of criticism is just a meaner form of bragging.

Here's the thing. The criticism I and others put out on this thread is on a sub-forum dedicated to snarking on financial stupidity. And we back it up with robust debate. On a site where the proprietor routinely uses the term "face punch" to describe silly financial decisions. So the context is entirely different to an Instagram post to the masses. For one thing, I didn't start this discussion to get likes, nor did I frame it in a way that would provide effortless agreement.

Also, it's not my position that you can't brag. By all means celebrate achievements with intimates, as I said. That's very different from humble/bragging on Instagram. It serves a vastly different purpose and has a vastly different audience. If you are trying to conflate the two, then you are missing a critical point of difference.

LonerMatt

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A lot of people just have IG with their friends/circle?

I think you're trying to make a point but it's not as robust to us as it is in your mind.

I really can't think of a single reason we should decry people for being proud and sharing their achievements with people who care about them. I just don't see that as being problematic at all. I still haven't read an argument that does anything to explain what's wrong with people wanting to share what they've achieved and worked for, apart from some vague 'this doesn't sit right with me, people should just be happy and not share it' point which seems a bit grumpy more than reasonable.

I much more opposed to documenting every.little.fucking.thing but it's not a good point just a pet peeve.

Malkynn

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Here's the thing. The criticism I and others put out on this thread is on a sub-forum dedicated to snarking on financial stupidity. And we back it up with robust debate. On a site where the proprietor routinely uses the term "face punch" to describe silly financial decisions. So the context is entirely different to an Instagram post to the masses. For one thing, I didn't start this discussion to get likes, nor did I frame it in a way that would provide effortless agreement.

Also, it's not my position that you can't brag. By all means celebrate achievements with intimates, as I said. That's very different from humble/bragging on Instagram. It serves a vastly different purpose and has a vastly different audience. If you are trying to conflate the two, then you are missing a critical point of difference.

I wasn't specifically talking about your disdain for humble-bragging though. I was making a general counter-point to someone saying that people being valued for their accomplishments says something about society.

I already said upthread that I also don't like false modesty, which includes the humble-bragging. I even prefer people being judgemental to people being fake-humble, at least people being judgemental can sometimes be hilarious. Humble-bragging is bile-triggering.

bacchi

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I think the general issue with social media and its popularity is the scope and magnification effect. If you were keeping up with the Jones' before that was largely limited to your local area and, perhaps, some TV shows. When you knew Jane Jones from next door went on a vacation you might also get additional non-verbal, non-shared context from the house she lived in and the car she drove that would signal a modest lifestyle. Of course they may not signal that but that context is often completely missing from social media. Now though your scope is broadened to anyone in the world which removes non-shared context and adds tens of thousands more Jones' to keep up with. With this increase in scope of Jones' to keep up with comes a notably increased barrage of financial splurges, popular vacation spots etc. If each person you're following takes a single trip and posts about it, it can still seem like 'man, everyone is getting to so much travel so I should too and take more than 1 trip this year because everyone is traveling so much!' because you are following so many people. 

Sure some social media talks about retirement, early retirement etc but I'm guessing those are far less frequent because I'm assuming if most people were talking about how well they were saving for retirement we wouldn't have nearly the concern about 'working forever' that we seem to have.

Yeah, spot on. In the past, about 15 years ago :), the only visibility into traveling and expensive clothes and fancy lifestyles was on TV or in magazines. Now, it's seemingly all over the place if you're on the internet much. Even if you don't follow an influencer on instagram, you know what one is. Combined with the long-term economic boom, it's as if simply everyone is traveling somewhere exotic and dropping metal cards at fancypants resorts.

However, I do think the increased visibility has made the prospect of being a "star" more viable. It's like how every waiter in LA is an actor. Here, anyone who wants to be "famous" has a shot at it with only a phone and fancy clothes/food reviews/beautiful locale/etc.

Bloop Bloop

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I wasn't specifically talking about your disdain for humble-bragging though. I was making a general counter-point to someone saying that people being valued for their accomplishments says something about society.

No doubt people ought to be valued for their accomplishments, whatever they are. But whether you are valued for your accomplishments has nothing to do with whether it's posted in a self-serving way on a public forum. Also, your line that (paraphrasing) "Everyone is great, but not any greater than anyone else", while fantastic for building humility and self-esteem, strikes me as being somewhat artificial when put into practice.

Malkynn

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I wasn't specifically talking about your disdain for humble-bragging though. I was making a general counter-point to someone saying that people being valued for their accomplishments says something about society.

No doubt people ought to be valued for their accomplishments, whatever they are. But whether you are valued for your accomplishments has nothing to do with whether it's posted in a self-serving way on a public forum. Also, your line that (paraphrasing) "Everyone is great, but not any greater than anyone else", while fantastic for building humility and self-esteem, strikes me as being somewhat artificial when put into practice.

Nope.
It works really well for me. I assume everyone is amazing in some ways and total shit in others, and so far no one has ever proven me wrong. I'm decidedly NOT saying that everyone is great at everything.

WhiteTrashCash

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I love how every conversation on the internet in time turns into arguing between complete strangers. Either that or sharing cat photos. Or arguing about cat photos.

Not There Yet

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Quote
I love how every conversation on the internet in time turns into arguing between complete strangers. Either that or sharing cat photos. Or arguing about cat photos.

You've got that right -https://news.yahoo.com/trump-shares-bizarre-cat-meme-about-his-altered-hurricane-map-204031017.html;_ylt=AwrXgiLAXXZdvj8AiDnQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTByb2lvbXVuBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--

flipboard

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I wasn't specifically talking about your disdain for humble-bragging though. I was making a general counter-point to someone saying that people being valued for their accomplishments says something about society.

No doubt people ought to be valued for their accomplishments, whatever they are. But whether you are valued for your accomplishments has nothing to do with whether it's posted in a self-serving way on a public forum. Also, your line that (paraphrasing) "Everyone is great, but not any greater than anyone else", while fantastic for building humility and self-esteem, strikes me as being somewhat artificial when put into practice.
That's a mischaracterisation of what's being stated here. Either way, the main point is that there are more interesting things to talk about than either bragging about your own achievements, or complaining about someone elses achievements.

Fish Sweet

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I'm increasingly convinced that most of the people complaining about millenials... are the parents of  millenials.

Sow what you reap and all that.
Funny story, I had a former Boomer boss who just loved me and one of my millennial coworkers.  To him, we were the perfect, model employees (and he was a good boss and mentor. Miss you lots, Boss!)  But he was also big on sneering at ~entitled young people these days with their participation trophies and progressive garbage~ and once laughingly told us that we must be "the only people our age who actually have jobs."

It took everything I had not to say, "Oh no, Boss.  It's just you and your friends' spoiled children mooching off of you because you let them.  The rest of us born without trust funds actually have rent to pay and groceries to buy."

DadJokes

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I'm increasingly convinced that most of the people complaining about millenials... are the parents of  millenials.

Sow what you reap and all that.
Funny story, I had a former Boomer boss who just loved me and one of my millennial coworkers.  To him, we were the perfect, model employees (and he was a good boss and mentor. Miss you lots, Boss!)  But he was also big on sneering at ~entitled young people these days with their participation trophies and progressive garbage~ and once laughingly told us that we must be "the only people our age who actually have jobs."

It took everything I had not to say, "Oh no, Boss.  It's just you and your friends' spoiled children mooching off of you because you let them.  The rest of us born without trust funds actually have rent to pay and groceries to buy."

I just think that the internet gives all of the complainers a voice. There probably aren't any more or less than there ever has been.

Fish Sweet

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I'm increasingly convinced that most of the people complaining about millenials... are the parents of  millenials.

Sow what you reap and all that.
Funny story, I had a former Boomer boss who just loved me and one of my millennial coworkers.  To him, we were the perfect, model employees (and he was a good boss and mentor. Miss you lots, Boss!)  But he was also big on sneering at ~entitled young people these days with their participation trophies and progressive garbage~ and once laughingly told us that we must be "the only people our age who actually have jobs."

It took everything I had not to say, "Oh no, Boss.  It's just you and your friends' spoiled children mooching off of you because you let them.  The rest of us born without trust funds actually have rent to pay and groceries to buy."

I just think that the internet gives all of the complainers a voice. There probably aren't any more or less than there ever has been.
That, and I think it's very easy for people (especially people who run in very homogeneous circles) to fall into "all the people around me are like THIS, so thus, everyone is like THIS."  My former boss's thought's and interactions with twenty-somethings were limited almost exclusively to me and my coworker, his friend's bunch of wealthy nonworking children, AND the extensive bitching of his friends and peers about their entitled children.  In that echo chamber, every run of the mill standard complaint by or about "young people these days" would be amplified.