Author Topic: I got culture shock just reading this...  (Read 21321 times)

justajane

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2015, 04:29:30 PM »
WestchesterFrugal, are you there?

lol. I think he/she has been reincarnated as SanDiego FIRE - a toned down version but still with the same ideas about status and how uber important it is for one's happiness and that of one's children.

Camarillo Brillo

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2015, 05:23:37 AM »
Red-shirting kindergarten boys was a thing where I grew up in Texas.  To make them more likely to make football teams.

Redshirting is freakin' ridiculous.

I come from a long line of people born between Sept. 1 and Dec. 31 when the school cut-off generally was Jan. 1. Thus, everyone born in the same year was in the same class. My family members and I thus graduated high school at 17 and college at 21.

To anyone who says it helps sports, consider this. I was born in October of 1969. My classmates included Brett Favre (Oct. 1969), Herman Moore (Oct. 1969) and Ken Griffey Jr. (Nov. 1969). All graduated high school at 17 and went on to Hall of Fame sports careers. (Herman Moore belongs in Canton but nobody appreciates him since he played on lousy Lions teams. Yes, I know that's redundant.)

I had modest sports genes and wasn't going to be an elite athlete regardless.

Teenagers like Mickey Mantle, Bob Feller, Johnny Bench, Al Kaline and Griffey Jr. routinely used to reach the Majors before their 20th birthday. That's because they graduated high school at 17. This doesn't happen today because high school grads are 18 1/2 or older.

Not only have we shifted the school deadline four months -- from Jan. 1 from Sept. 1 -- but now idiot parents like the ones in this story redshirt their kids another year because of sports or -- even better -- "socialization." WTF?

We have neighbors where the father applied his frustrations over a modest high school wrestling carer to his twin sons, born in December of 1995. Already they would have been the oldest in their class, but he held them back another year. Thus they're graduating high school this month -- finally -- at the age of 19 1/2. They will wrestle in college, but they probably would have anyway had they not been redshirted. The old man relentlessly pushed their wrestling careers at the expense of his other three kids.

When I was 19 1/2, I was finishing my sophomore year of college. Like so many others of previous generations.

Our younger son was born in August. People thought we'd start him in school a year later than we did. I thought nothing of it. Heck, he's two months older in school than I was at the same age. He's thriving academically and athletically.

It makes no sense to hold your kids back. If sports is your thing, your kid is going to thrive by playing with kids older and more advanced.

Citing specific anecdotes doesn't invalidate the idea that being older in those early ages of sports can lead to a kid "showing more potential" and getting more playing time, getting to be on varisty instead of JV, etc. Pointing out all time greats being good despite not redshirting doesn't prove anything.

Considering that wrestling is a sport where competing is based on weight class, not age, it makes him just look like a fool.

Yes, some kids who are athletically gifted genetically might be successful whether they are redshirted or not, but when we are talking about tiny differences separating the elite from the very good, the 1st round draft picks from the 4th round draft picks (which is millions of dollars apart), there is something to it.

(Note: I don't condone the idea of redshirting your 5 year old because you have dreams of them playing in the NFL, but I don't think it's an invalid concept if that is your goal).
Well said.  I will point however, that there is a huge advantage to grayshirting wrestlers.  My favorite sport is wrestling and I follow it very closely.  A 19 year old 133 pounder will have a much more developed physique than a 17 year old 133 pounder, and will be much stronger (in almost all cases).  Take note of nearly all the college champs. Almost all of them are much older than their classmates.

partgypsy

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2015, 07:22:37 AM »
My gut response to this, is that it seems like cheating.

If kindergarten is supposed to start ages-5-6, and all the regular income kids are one age, and all the upper class people are older, it seems like it could start a pattern of bullying.
FYI I had a birthday in September so I was 17 for a month going into college, and young going into kindergarten. I am socially not a superstar, but I doubt things would have been any different if I was held back a year. I never necessarily hung out with people my age anyways, often having as many friends older or younger than me, or even teachers, than people in my grade. It was more if we had something in common. Despite being young I was in advanced academics and can imagine I would have been bored to tears if I was held back further.

Probably an argument could have been made to hold my older brother back a year, as he was socially, academically immature. But that would have made him in my grade, and I would have hated that. 

infogoon

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2015, 09:35:00 AM »
Academics don't seem to factor into your analysis -- just sports and size. I just wouldn't care that much if my kid didn't excel in sports. I don't want any of my boys to be picked on, but small size doesn't guarantee this by any means. I would say if a kid is ready academically, it wouldn't make sense to hold them back.

Academics aren't the entirety of school, however. I was in this situation -- I was promoted from kindergarten into first grade after a few weeks, and spent the rest of K-12 as the youngest student in my class. Academics were never a problem for me, I did very well in both my public district and my private high school, but I spent an awful long time as the smallest boy in the class (picked on, last picked in gym class, etc) and didn't have the maturity or social skill to handle it well.

When it was time to enroll my son, we started him late.

Scandium

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2015, 09:50:39 AM »
So redshirts are the expendable guys who always gets killed in star trek episodes right? How exactly does that translate to holding kids back?  Sounds a bit morbid to me..

RFAAOATB

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2015, 10:38:24 AM »
It seems the stereotypes are that sports are not as important as academics but I read this article yesterday which noted "Former high-school athletes generally go on to have higher-status careers than those who didnít play a sport."  We usually assume better academic performance is associated with higher pay.  What would be interesting is how much academic performance would be needed to compensate for athletic hiring bias.

I guess the stereotype now is academic successes make good worker bees while athletic successes show leadership and drive in addition to their academic accomplishments.

I'm a red panda

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2015, 10:53:13 AM »
So redshirts are the expendable guys who always gets killed in star trek episodes right? How exactly does that translate to holding kids back?  Sounds a bit morbid to me..

Red shirt apparently comes from the color of scrimmage jersey that was often used for the players not officially on the teams.  From what I can tell the term dates back to at least the 50s, and the practice to the 30s; before the notion of a red shirt being the guy in Star Trek who was sure to die. 

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2015, 11:39:54 AM »
You are only going to live a certain number of years.

There is a finite point (at least in the U.S.) where you have the freedom to do what you want.  I put that point as high school graduation.  I do personally know some people that broke this mold, said f*** it to the rules, took the GED and bailed out of high school at 15 or 16, and they are highly successful folks.

But for most of us it is high school graduation.  At that point, you are going to make some decisions for yourself.  Finally.  You have reached the end of the scripted presentation.  I could feel the chains falling off.  Leaving home and being on my own for the first time was the greatest feeling I have ever had.  The tutorial is over, it's time to start the game.

I submit the following letter, from your 4 or 5 year old child, unable to articulate his or her future self's wishes:

Dear mom and dad:

Today you are considering holding me back one year, because you are afraid.  You are afraid that I may not be ready to start this journey.  You are afraid that over the next 13 years I will be too small, or too awkward, to successfully navigate school.

Do not let your fear rob me of a full year of freedom.  Right now I am a slave to my own dependence on you.  When I graduate high school, I will be free.  At that time, my decisions, in a very real sense, will overwhelmingly dictate my successes.  I only have so many years of freedom before I die, and this right here, this is your chance to give me an extra one.

It might not work out, I might not develop fast enough, they may have to hold me back somewhere along the way.  I may not make the varsity team of a sport I wouldn't be able to play in college anyway.  I may lack the emotional development to start dating in seventh grade.  There may be an emotionally stunted coach who says I'm too short to play basketball, or any other of a hundred problems.  But there will be problems regardless, and avoidance of them is not nearly as valuable as what can be learned from dealing with them.

Please have faith in yourself as a parent, to deal with these things as they arise, together with me.  I will struggle from time to time.  It may be harder.  But ease is not the point.

What will I do over the next year that will be better?  If you hold me back, you have to make it worth it.  What language will we learn?  What physical training will we do?  What fantastic experiences have you lined up for me in the next 12 months?  Because in 13 years, when I'm still one year away from freedom, because of this decision, there will be a reckoning.

And if I'm not in the top 10.  And I'm not athletic-scholarship-bound.  Which is super likely.  Then it will be a lost year.

-Your kid.
---------------------

Anectodotally, I could have started a year earlier, and I resent this decision forced on me by others.  Kids in my grade offered no challenge, school was mind-numbingly boring.  And I was never going to excel at sports because I don't particularly care for competition.  I took as much summer school as was available and ended up with a senior year with only 3 classes.  Stuff that was sequential that you just had to have in order to graduate, because rules.

It took me 14 months to earn a master's degree.  So holding me back 12 months, we could roughly compare to the career implications of an advanced degree.

Your future doctor will be a doctor for one extra year if you don't hold her back.
Your future supreme court justice will be one for an extra year if you don't hold her back.
Your future NFL quarterback (or coach!) will be one for an extra year if you don't hold him back.
Your future NFL cheerleader won't be as old and wrinkly if you don't hold her back!

And your future average american professional will have an entire extra year to earn money or get an advanced degree if you don't hold them back.

K-12 IS NOT DIFFICULT.  You don't know what is going to happen.

Be not afraid.

RetiredAt63

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2015, 07:28:21 PM »
I'm having culture shock reading this.  I am an August baby, and I was small for my age.  School cutoff was somewhere in November.  My parents never considered holding me back.  DD is also an August baby, cutoff in October, we never considered holding her back, and no-one suggested it.  The same for her friends with similar birthdays.  Re the sports, all DD's extra-curricular sports were based on age, not on grade, so being held back would not have made a difference.  School sports were not a big factor to her or really to anyone - the fact that she was on her high school's inter-collegiate soccer team did not make her any more important at school.  It did make a difference socially, in that a lot of her friends were guys on the soccer and football teams, and she was seen as a fellow jock, not a sports groupie.  But her age had nothing to do with that.

Back to cultural differences, this emphasis on school sports seems very strange.  Is this the same push that makes College football such an incredibly big thing in the U.S.?   

Don't want to sound holier-than-thou, it is just cultural differences, because here any kid in high level juniour hockey will be a big deal, but that is not a school sport, that is outside school. 

bacchi

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2015, 11:35:27 AM »
Malcolm Gladwell is the go-to author for the well-off to feel good about themselves. He creates his "theories" from specious evidence and/or cherry picks studies.

Interestingly, the redshirt theory for academics is the opposite. It's better to be the youngest in the classroom, all else being equal. Holding back a child only for academic reasons does not help a child succeed. Hit google for the numerous studies.

Gladwell's "relative age" theory was based on hockey. It doesn't seem to apply to other sports, whether football or basketball.


MoneyCat

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2015, 11:47:25 AM »
This kind of stuff is why I am 100% in favor of raising taxes on the wealthy.

RetiredAt63

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2015, 07:26:21 PM »
Huh? How did you get from "red-shirting" to taxes?  Not following the logic.
This kind of stuff is why I am 100% in favor of raising taxes on the wealthy.

RetiredAt63

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2015, 07:29:39 PM »
The age thing may depend on the birthday cutoff for a particular sport, if it is based more on season and less on calendar year. 

I can see it re academics - if a child is particularly bright, the last thing they want to do is wait a year for school.


Interestingly, the redshirt theory for academics is the opposite. It's better to be the youngest in the classroom, all else being equal. Holding back a child only for academic reasons does not help a child succeed. Hit google for the numerous studies.

Gladwell's "relative age" theory was based on hockey. It doesn't seem to apply to other sports, whether football or basketball.

Sailor Sam

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2015, 12:05:51 PM »
I third the whole article being kind of sad. Especially the part where the authour went native, to the point she can't re-assimilate back into a more mainstream culture.

It might not work out, I might not develop fast enough, they may have to hold me back somewhere along the way. 

+1 for letting the kid lead the way. I was an mid-August baby, in a school district with a 1-Sept cutoff. My parents enrolled me in kindergarten at barely 5, but held me back in second grade when it became apparent I had no clue what math really was. I ended up getting a 6 (out of 7) on my math IB exam, skipped a year of collage using my IB diploma, and the Education of Sam saga ended with emotional and financial happiness for all. Anecdotal, but hey, I happen to like stories about me :)

LalsConstant

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2015, 12:09:45 PM »
Huh? How did you get from "red-shirting" to taxes?  Not following the logic.
This kind of stuff is why I am 100% in favor of raising taxes on the wealthy.
What's more, raising taxes on these people will not adjust their cultural values in the slightest.

Psychstache

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2015, 12:35:51 PM »
I'm having culture shock reading this.  I am an August baby, and I was small for my age.  School cutoff was somewhere in November.  My parents never considered holding me back.  DD is also an August baby, cutoff in October, we never considered holding her back, and no-one suggested it.  The same for her friends with similar birthdays.  Re the sports, all DD's extra-curricular sports were based on age, not on grade, so being held back would not have made a difference.  School sports were not a big factor to her or really to anyone - the fact that she was on her high school's inter-collegiate soccer team did not make her any more important at school.  It did make a difference socially, in that a lot of her friends were guys on the soccer and football teams, and she was seen as a fellow jock, not a sports groupie.  But her age had nothing to do with that.

Back to cultural differences, this emphasis on school sports seems very strange.  Is this the same push that makes College football such an incredibly big thing in the U.S.?   

Don't want to sound holier-than-thou, it is just cultural differences, because here any kid in high level juniour hockey will be a big deal, but that is not a school sport, that is outside school.

It is an interesting cultural part of the US. I have a birthday that is 17 days after the cutoff, and my parents elected to send me to private school for Kinder and 1st so I could go ahead and get started (funny turn of events, I also ended up skipping a year of high school so I graduated at 16). They had no major sports related ambitions for me (good call on their part, I got my PE credits in college by taking bowling.....twice), so I think they just thought I was bright enough to get started. Socially, I had some extreme difficulties, but I have no real way of knowing if that was a developmental issue of the fact that I am a big of an odd duck who didn't really fit in. On benefit that came about from starting early and skipping a year is that it meant that I was a senior in high school when 9/11 happened. Being at a predominately white high school in Texas, it was not a good time to be a half-middle eastern kid there. I worry about what would have happened had I been a sophomore like I should have been and had to stick around for a few years in that environment.


Back to your question, college football is a big deal. The colleges and the NCAA have been able to, through massive PR efforts, create this idea that it is student athletes battling it out for school pride, when really it is a developmental league for the NFL which has minimal costs thanks to the use of indentured servants student athletes. The kids play along since some of them feel that given their backgrounds, this is their opportunity to be successful, but in my opinion it is a perversion of college athletics. When I think about college leaders and NCAA bigwigs watching the BCS championship game, I can't help but feel it has it is more civilized homage to Roman nobles watching their slave fighters battling it out in the Coliseum.

Metta

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2015, 12:58:55 PM »
Huh? How did you get from "red-shirting" to taxes?  Not following the logic.
This kind of stuff is why I am 100% in favor of raising taxes on the wealthy.

Because the article is not primarily about redshirting or even about the children. It is about the lives of the women described. The article is deeply disturbing, not because some children enter school later, but because it represents a complete waste of the lives of women who could be contributing much more to society than buying purses and engineering their children's social lives. These are women who have money and power. They should do more with it than they are.

big_slacker

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2015, 03:39:38 PM »
"Some mommies serve wine at 11 a.m. play dates."

I mean, I don't see any problem with that.

The rest is wack!

justajane

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2015, 04:21:35 PM »
I third the whole article being kind of sad. Especially the part where the authour went native, to the point she can't re-assimilate back into a more mainstream culture.

Yeah, she didn't strike me as a very good anthropologist if she lost her professional distance like that. And overall she came across to me as quite shallow, especially the final jab about gray haired women on the Upper West Side. I would take that environment any day over the artificial expectations of women on the other side of the park.

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2015, 04:44:59 PM »
"Some mommies serve wine at 11 a.m. play dates."

I mean, I don't see any problem with that.

The rest is wack!

Fuck wine; if I was stuck supervising an 11 AM "play date" I'd be hitting the vodka pretty hard. Anyone with that amount of money can afford a taxi.

Chris23

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2015, 10:12:19 PM »
I third the whole article being kind of sad. Especially the part where the authour went native, to the point she can't re-assimilate back into a more mainstream culture.

Yeah, she didn't strike me as a very good anthropologist if she lost her professional distance like that. And overall she came across to me as quite shallow, especially the final jab about gray haired women on the Upper West Side. I would take that environment any day over the artificial expectations of women on the other side of the park.

She has a BA in anthropology and a PhD in comparative literature. I wouldn't call her an anthropologist. She's a smart lady using anthropological buzzwords to sell her book.

Scandium

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2015, 04:13:18 AM »
Huh? How did you get from "red-shirting" to taxes?  Not following the logic.
This kind of stuff is why I am 100% in favor of raising taxes on the wealthy.

Because the article is not primarily about redshirting or even about the children. It is about the lives of the women described. The article is deeply disturbing, not because some children enter school later, but because it represents a complete waste of the lives of women who could be contributing much more to society than buying purses and engineering their children's social lives. These are women who have money and power. They should do more with it than they are.
Says who? It's their money and their lives, they can do whatever the hell they want with it. Mocking them is fine, but the last thing I want is more government that gets to decide what we "should" do, or buy, or watch, or say...
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 06:28:53 AM by Scandium »

kite

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2015, 10:24:07 AM »
Huh? How did you get from "red-shirting" to taxes?  Not following the logic.
This kind of stuff is why I am 100% in favor of raising taxes on the wealthy.

Because the article is not primarily about redshirting or even about the children. It is about the lives of the women described. The article is deeply disturbing, not because some children enter school later, but because it represents a complete waste of the lives of women who could be contributing much more to society than buying purses and engineering their children's social lives. These are women who have money and power. They should do more with it than they are.

Meh.  They are making an incalculable contribution by sitting out of the paid workforce.  The content of the article isn't news, it's marketing.  It's an exaggerated snippet intended to sell a book.  So don't get too worked up over an exaggeration.
The fact remains, the partner of a very well compensated individual can afford to be a stay at home parent and many will exercise this option.  This is a good thing in many ways.  Consider a woman like Michelle Obama or Laura Bush.  Either could have any paid job she chose, owing to her connections alone.  By not taking some big, important job that makes some "contribution" they leave those jobs to someone who actually needs the paycheck.  Notwithstanding their individual qualifications, they could probably land a 6 figure job with little effort, but they don't need the money. The same can be said for the spouse of many extremely well paid individuals.  Think Suze Orman's spouse or Elton John's or the spouse of a surgeon, Navy Admiral, CEO, etc.  I don't discount the personal risk that such an individual may take based on his or her choice, but it doesn't hurt society that he or she isn't doing something more useful with their time.  Those who opt out recognize that they don't need the extra $ they would net from a job.  I respect their ability to set the priority for their family, even if it includes the luxury of scouring upscale boutiques for the perfect purse.  It's not so different from being FIREd and finding your ideal purse at the local thriftshop.   So if a small number of bankers' spouses want to spend their days like MMM's wife does...focused on family & other things besides earning a wage.....more power to 'em.   My working class mother did the same and it wasn't a complete waste of her life.  There was nothing she needed or wanted that money could buy.

I read the piece as a bit misogynistic, which I think is particularly ugly when it comes from a woman. 

****I know zero about the spouses of Suze & Elton, I only include them as examples because the choice transcends traditional heterosexual marriage with a male primary breadwinner. 

kittenstache

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2015, 05:05:27 PM »
Red-shirting kindergarten boys was a thing where I grew up in Texas.  To make them more likely to make football teams.
I grew up in Pennsylvania, and this is popular there, too.

MoneyCat

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2015, 10:45:36 AM »
Huh? How did you get from "red-shirting" to taxes?  Not following the logic.
This kind of stuff is why I am 100% in favor of raising taxes on the wealthy.

Because the article is not primarily about redshirting or even about the children. It is about the lives of the women described. The article is deeply disturbing, not because some children enter school later, but because it represents a complete waste of the lives of women who could be contributing much more to society than buying purses and engineering their children's social lives. These are women who have money and power. They should do more with it than they are.
Says who? It's their money and their lives, they can do whatever the hell they want with it. Mocking them is fine, but the last thing I want is more government that gets to decide what we "should" do, or buy, or watch, or say...

I would like to take their money away from them.  Clearly, they aren't responsible enough to have it.

Scandium

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2015, 01:44:04 PM »
Huh? How did you get from "red-shirting" to taxes?  Not following the logic.
This kind of stuff is why I am 100% in favor of raising taxes on the wealthy.

Because the article is not primarily about redshirting or even about the children. It is about the lives of the women described. The article is deeply disturbing, not because some children enter school later, but because it represents a complete waste of the lives of women who could be contributing much more to society than buying purses and engineering their children's social lives. These are women who have money and power. They should do more with it than they are.
Says who? It's their money and their lives, they can do whatever the hell they want with it. Mocking them is fine, but the last thing I want is more government that gets to decide what we "should" do, or buy, or watch, or say...

I would like to take their money away from them.  Clearly, they aren't responsible enough to have it.
Da comrade Lenin, we'll get right on that

MoneyCat

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2015, 01:45:38 PM »

Huh? How did you get from "red-shirting" to taxes?  Not following the logic.
This kind of stuff is why I am 100% in favor of raising taxes on the wealthy.

Because the article is not primarily about redshirting or even about the children. It is about the lives of the women described. The article is deeply disturbing, not because some children enter school later, but because it represents a complete waste of the lives of women who could be contributing much more to society than buying purses and engineering their children's social lives. These are women who have money and power. They should do more with it than they are.
Says who? It's their money and their lives, they can do whatever the hell they want with it. Mocking them is fine, but the last thing I want is more government that gets to decide what we "should" do, or buy, or watch, or say...

I would like to take their money away from them.  Clearly, they aren't responsible enough to have it.
Da comrade Lenin, we'll get right on that

They'd like to take my money from me, but I'd rather take their money from them.  They didn't earn it anyway.


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MgoSam

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2015, 01:48:21 PM »
It's coming out that the author might have taken liberties with some facts (might be putting it mildly).

http://nypost.com/2015/06/07/upper-east-side-housewifes-tell-all-book-is-full-of-lies/

justajane

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Re: I got culture shock just reading this...
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2015, 02:49:20 PM »
It's coming out that the author might have taken liberties with some facts (might be putting it mildly).

http://nypost.com/2015/06/07/upper-east-side-housewifes-tell-all-book-is-full-of-lies/

Yeah, she seems like a real piece of work. Perhaps the world she imagines is more fiction than reality. At least I hope so.