Author Topic: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie  (Read 6918 times)

Kris

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #100 on: November 18, 2021, 11:49:41 AM »
What are the boxes there for on a job application if not for some filtering purpose?

The other reason would be required reporting on the composition of the applicant pool.

If I could be assured that this is the primary driver, I would be a very happy camper.

You know, I've been on a lot of hiring committees in my day. A lot. And in pretty much all of those situations, taking demographic information about candidates has been a required part of the procedure. But not once, ever, in all of my professional life, has anyone on any committee suggested that we hire a woman or a person of color or some underrepresented status who is less qualified, over a white, heterosexual man who is more qualified. Never. It has never happened.

Have I been in situations where there were two *equally qualified candidates* -- one a white heterosexual man, and one not -- where the decision was made to hire the person from the underrepresented group? Yes.

Is that wrong? And if you would argue that it is, are you saying that in those situations, the right decision would have been to hire the white heterosexual man?

If so, why?

Malcat

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #101 on: November 18, 2021, 11:58:46 AM »
Ah, so this argument has evolved from hate crimes to you taking issue with possible affirmative action that your program may or may not be engaging in, since you haven't actually confirmed that these boxes to check are for affirmative action.

Cool, that helps me understand what your position is.

What are the boxes there for on a job application if not for some filtering purpose? Honest question.

I believe that you couldn't state my position if your life depended on it. It all gets thrown into that "other" box and dismissed.

Sure. Okay.

StashingAway

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #102 on: November 18, 2021, 12:21:34 PM »
Have I been in situations where there were two *equally qualified candidates* -- one a white heterosexual man, and one not -- where the decision was made to hire the person from the underrepresented group? Yes.


I would not argue that's a wrong decision in the slightest. I would agree with your hiring position here and would likely make the same should I be in that position. Mind you, it would be because of the company optics if done the way I would prefer (flip a coin and with 50% chance of not hiring the socially preferable candidate).

I have much more to say about this, but don't feel that it could be approached well in this already derailed thread. My mood has already been soured. I want to think that I'm open to honest discussion but it seems that the lines have already been drawn and there isn't much open discussion on the table. Perhaps this is my fault. Either way, it's time to sign off for awhile.

nereo

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #103 on: November 18, 2021, 02:07:50 PM »
What are the boxes there for on a job application if not for some filtering purpose?

The other reason would be required reporting on the composition of the applicant pool.

We (private, for-profit company) are required to ask on our applications, but we are prohibited from basing your hiring decision on any of the answers, and we (and most?) companies do not pass that particular information on to the hiring committee, as it might unfairly bias the hiring process.  As an applicant you are both protected and not required to fill that information out.

It was a similar situation for my previous employer (public university) and for the state government for which my spouse works.

Most states have very similar laws prohibiting discrimination based on a large group of protected classes (which almost always include race and gender, and increasingly gender identity).

FWIW there is also an ethnicity question on the US Census form, as well as a question about whether you are from hispanic descent. It is not verified and the form can be considered "complete" even if those pieces of information are left blank.  We trained to specifically NOT ask any follow up questions to those questions (e.g. "really? you don't look african-american..."  no way.)

For the background as to why this has become common place, its roots is in the 1964 civil rights act.  To paraphrase the legal argument, you cannot prove systemic discrimination if you cannot measure differences.  All of this is an attempt to do just that.

dreadmoose

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #104 on: November 19, 2021, 10:51:24 AM »
For anyone wondering if he is a morally reprehensible person you can read this to understand why someone that knows him infinitely better than the public thinks he shouldn't have a platform:

https://www.thestar.com/amp/opinion/2018/05/25/i-was-jordan-petersons-strongest-supporter-now-i-think-hes-dangerous.html?utm_source=pocket_mylist

I do tend to question using his own hand-waiving points that intellectual conversation is about giving both sides the same amount of time to speak and the same weight no matter their opinion a little farcical. This leads to having scientists debate flat-earthers, it lends credence to wildly incorrect sides.

Jordan Peterson appears to want to build a cult, if you find yourself following what he says a bit too closely maybe try reading some counter-points so you don't end up in it.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 10:54:53 AM by dreadmoose »

Kris

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #105 on: November 19, 2021, 11:16:49 AM »
For anyone wondering if he is a morally reprehensible person you can read this to understand why someone that knows him infinitely better than the public thinks he shouldn't have a platform:

https://www.thestar.com/amp/opinion/2018/05/25/i-was-jordan-petersons-strongest-supporter-now-i-think-hes-dangerous.html?utm_source=pocket_mylist

I do tend to question using his own hand-waiving points that intellectual conversation is about giving both sides the same amount of time to speak and the same weight no matter their opinion a little farcical. This leads to having scientists debate flat-earthers, it lends credence to wildly incorrect sides.

Jordan Peterson appears to want to build a cult, if you find yourself following what he says a bit too closely maybe try reading some counter-points so you don't end up in it.

I remember reading that article when it came out. Yeah, he is definitely creepy, and his arguments on some of the more controversial positions he takes, to my mind, amount to a flurry of words designed to smokescreen some pretty simplistic and flawed ideas.

By the way, the link you gave is behind a paywall for me. So in case it is for others too, here it is on a non-paywalled site:

https://outline.com/Ef7wGR

bloodaxe

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #106 on: November 19, 2021, 01:44:09 PM »
Don't understand the love for Jordan Peterson. He's a reactionary conservative who wants to keep culture the way it is.

His arguments usually consist of babbling sprinkled with SAT words and either "Archetype" or "category":

Quote
You may say, 'Well, dragons don't exist'. It's, like, yes they do — the category predator and the category dragon are the same category. It absolutely exists. It's a superordinate category. It exists absolutely more than anything else. In fact, it really exists. What exists is not obvious. You say, 'Well, there's no such thing as witches.' Yeah, I know what you mean, but that isn't what you think when you go see a movie about them. You can't help but fall into these categories. There's no escape from them.

He often says mysoginist things:

  • "There is something that isn't quite right with women who don't make having babies by 30 their primary desire" Link
  • "Can men and women work together? Things started deteriorating very rapidly once they started working together" Link
  • "Women who wear makeup in the workplace but do not want to be sexually harassed are hypocritical" Link
  • "Feminists have a unconscious desire for brutal male domination" Link

He calls every threat to the status quo either "cultural marxism" or "postmodernism". But defines neither eloquently.

He is ardently pro free speech until someone says something mean about him, then he busts out the defamation lawsuits.

Despite being super against humanities because they are unscientific, he believes in pseudoscience like quantum mysticism and meat only diets.

scottish

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #107 on: November 19, 2021, 04:57:13 PM »

He is ardently pro free speech until someone says something mean about him, then he busts out the defamation lawsuits.


Do you mean the lawsuit against Wilfrid Laurier University?   I only found one...

RetiredAt63

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #108 on: November 20, 2021, 07:38:32 AM »

  • "There is something that isn't quite right with women who don't make having babies by 30 their primary desire" Link
  • "Can men and women work together? Things started deteriorating very rapidly once they started working together" Link
  • "Women who wear makeup in the workplace but do not want to be sexually harassed are hypocritical" Link
  • "Feminists have a unconscious desire for brutal male domination" Link

Well, when bicycles came out it was well known that they would damage women's health, especially their reproductive organs.

And men and women have never in all of human history worked together, of course not.  /s

Mascara is society's gift to women with invisible eyelashes.

He should take an ecology course.  R type species have lots of babies early and often, because they die young and most of the babies die really young.  K type species have babies late and rarely, and put a lot of investment into each baby. In western society now we are K type.

There is a species of grouse where the young inexperienced females mate with the most dominant males on the leks (sorry forget which species).  The males are rough.  The more experienced females mate with the middle of the road males and do that year after year.  It's called learning from experience.


I heard of this guy years ago, didn't impress me then, and he obviously hasn't changed.

StashingAway

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #109 on: November 20, 2021, 11:53:48 AM »
Or, one could note that, when he is in a position of power, say as a professor with a student, he has the courage of his convictions and stands for his principles to insult and degrade the other person.

Provide one time he did this to an individual. I'll wait.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #110 on: November 20, 2021, 05:50:31 PM »

combined with loose definitions of identity allowing change whenever you feel like it and a great assortment of made up new pronouns to pick from, i don't believe the apprehension regarding this law is far fetched

In addition to what Malcat said:  I do not understand how using a person's stated and preferred pronouns can be considered a legitimate burden on the speaker. If you misuse the correct pronoun accidentally there is no legal fault or ramifications. It's only if you maliciously and repeatedly misrepresent a person that you have erred. Either way, it's always good form to ask.

Exactly. If I'm introduced to you as Mary Smith, and I tell you, "I actually go by my middle name, which is Jane," how is it a legitimate burden on you to call me Jane instead of Mary? Would you say, "Hah, screw that, I'm tired of your loose definition of identity allowing change whenever you feel like it. I'm calling you Mary."

The only issue I've had with this is that it rarely has been I'll introduce myself as this name. That's no problem. Instead, it's usually, I've know the person for months/years, and then the name changes. That's challenging for me to remember. Also, I've struggled with pronouns multiple times - mostly either because the person physically looks like the other gender or because they want to use they and calling someone they is never going to be intuitive for me.

All that being said, I've also never gotten yelled at for using the wrong pronoun or name inadvertently, so it's never been an issue.

nereo

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #111 on: November 20, 2021, 06:41:46 PM »

combined with loose definitions of identity allowing change whenever you feel like it and a great assortment of made up new pronouns to pick from, i don't believe the apprehension regarding this law is far fetched

In addition to what Malcat said:  I do not understand how using a person's stated and preferred pronouns can be considered a legitimate burden on the speaker. If you misuse the correct pronoun accidentally there is no legal fault or ramifications. It's only if you maliciously and repeatedly misrepresent a person that you have erred. Either way, it's always good form to ask.

Exactly. If I'm introduced to you as Mary Smith, and I tell you, "I actually go by my middle name, which is Jane," how is it a legitimate burden on you to call me Jane instead of Mary? Would you say, "Hah, screw that, I'm tired of your loose definition of identity allowing change whenever you feel like it. I'm calling you Mary."

The only issue I've had with this is that it rarely has been I'll introduce myself as this name. That's no problem. Instead, it's usually, I've know the person for months/years, and then the name changes. That's challenging for me to remember. Also, I've struggled with pronouns multiple times - mostly either because the person physically looks like the other gender or because they want to use they and calling someone they is never going to be intuitive for me.

All that being said, I've also never gotten yelled at for using the wrong pronoun or name inadvertently, so it's never been an issue.

Sure, but people changing what they are called has been a cultural norm for centuries. People get married and take their spouse’s name.  A student becomes a doctor, or a rabbi, or a professor and gains a title. Kids drop their less formal nicknames to sound more grownup (e.g. “billy” decides to go by “william”). Parents split and remarry, leaving the kids with new surnames. A person takes a stage name, or a pen-name (nom de plume). After being released from prison a person wishes to make a ‘fresh start.’  Or a person changes their name to escape the stigma of an unreputible relative.  Many change their names when they move to a new country to better assimilate, or because their old name proves difficult to pronounce for the locals.

It seems we accept name changes for so many reasons but for whatever reason this one has become a sticky subject.  We don’t seem to mind when Lizzy Smith gets married and chooses to go by Elizabeth Hendricks; why is it so different when Lizzy decides to go by Lenny?

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #112 on: November 20, 2021, 07:03:14 PM »

combined with loose definitions of identity allowing change whenever you feel like it and a great assortment of made up new pronouns to pick from, i don't believe the apprehension regarding this law is far fetched

In addition to what Malcat said:  I do not understand how using a person's stated and preferred pronouns can be considered a legitimate burden on the speaker. If you misuse the correct pronoun accidentally there is no legal fault or ramifications. It's only if you maliciously and repeatedly misrepresent a person that you have erred. Either way, it's always good form to ask.

Exactly. If I'm introduced to you as Mary Smith, and I tell you, "I actually go by my middle name, which is Jane," how is it a legitimate burden on you to call me Jane instead of Mary? Would you say, "Hah, screw that, I'm tired of your loose definition of identity allowing change whenever you feel like it. I'm calling you Mary."

The only issue I've had with this is that it rarely has been I'll introduce myself as this name. That's no problem. Instead, it's usually, I've know the person for months/years, and then the name changes. That's challenging for me to remember. Also, I've struggled with pronouns multiple times - mostly either because the person physically looks like the other gender or because they want to use they and calling someone they is never going to be intuitive for me.

All that being said, I've also never gotten yelled at for using the wrong pronoun or name inadvertently, so it's never been an issue.

Sure, but people changing what they are called has been a cultural norm for centuries. People get married and take their spouse’s name.  A student becomes a doctor, or a rabbi, or a professor and gains a title. Kids drop their less formal nicknames to sound more grownup (e.g. “billy” decides to go by “william”). Parents split and remarry, leaving the kids with new surnames. A person takes a stage name, or a pen-name (nom de plume). After being released from prison a person wishes to make a ‘fresh start.’  Or a person changes their name to escape the stigma of an unreputible relative.  Many change their names when they move to a new country to better assimilate, or because their old name proves difficult to pronounce for the locals.

It seems we accept name changes for so many reasons but for whatever reason this one has become a sticky subject.  We don’t seem to mind when Lizzy Smith gets married and chooses to go by Elizabeth Hendricks; why is it so different when Lizzy decides to go by Lenny?

All good points. I will say that last name changes aren't quite the same as first name given most people establish identity in their mind based on first name.  Also,  I struggle with people that change their names in general, and I don't think I'm alone.  I know of a couple people unrelated to trans situations that changed what they wanted to be called substantially,  and I'm not great about either one of their new names.  Also, even though no one has yelled at me about it, there's a certain level of tension that comes with missing a name in this situation that doesn't in the others.

None of this should be construed as complaining. I in no way have it rough or anything. However,  I also believe it's not as simple as "just use the new name/ pronoun as it's often presented."

Malcat

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #113 on: November 20, 2021, 08:46:22 PM »

combined with loose definitions of identity allowing change whenever you feel like it and a great assortment of made up new pronouns to pick from, i don't believe the apprehension regarding this law is far fetched

In addition to what Malcat said:  I do not understand how using a person's stated and preferred pronouns can be considered a legitimate burden on the speaker. If you misuse the correct pronoun accidentally there is no legal fault or ramifications. It's only if you maliciously and repeatedly misrepresent a person that you have erred. Either way, it's always good form to ask.

Exactly. If I'm introduced to you as Mary Smith, and I tell you, "I actually go by my middle name, which is Jane," how is it a legitimate burden on you to call me Jane instead of Mary? Would you say, "Hah, screw that, I'm tired of your loose definition of identity allowing change whenever you feel like it. I'm calling you Mary."

The only issue I've had with this is that it rarely has been I'll introduce myself as this name. That's no problem. Instead, it's usually, I've know the person for months/years, and then the name changes. That's challenging for me to remember. Also, I've struggled with pronouns multiple times - mostly either because the person physically looks like the other gender or because they want to use they and calling someone they is never going to be intuitive for me.

All that being said, I've also never gotten yelled at for using the wrong pronoun or name inadvertently, so it's never been an issue.

Sure, but people changing what they are called has been a cultural norm for centuries. People get married and take their spouse’s name.  A student becomes a doctor, or a rabbi, or a professor and gains a title. Kids drop their less formal nicknames to sound more grownup (e.g. “billy” decides to go by “william”). Parents split and remarry, leaving the kids with new surnames. A person takes a stage name, or a pen-name (nom de plume). After being released from prison a person wishes to make a ‘fresh start.’  Or a person changes their name to escape the stigma of an unreputible relative.  Many change their names when they move to a new country to better assimilate, or because their old name proves difficult to pronounce for the locals.

It seems we accept name changes for so many reasons but for whatever reason this one has become a sticky subject.  We don’t seem to mind when Lizzy Smith gets married and chooses to go by Elizabeth Hendricks; why is it so different when Lizzy decides to go by Lenny?

All good points. I will say that last name changes aren't quite the same as first name given most people establish identity in their mind based on first name.  Also,  I struggle with people that change their names in general, and I don't think I'm alone.  I know of a couple people unrelated to trans situations that changed what they wanted to be called substantially,  and I'm not great about either one of their new names.  Also, even though no one has yelled at me about it, there's a certain level of tension that comes with missing a name in this situation that doesn't in the others.

None of this should be construed as complaining. I in no way have it rough or anything. However,  I also believe it's not as simple as "just use the new name/ pronoun as it's often presented."

I work in an industry where all of my colleagues and I go by our last names, and changing last names has never been an issue.

Funny story. The only time I've seen someone changing their last name be an issue is when DH took my last name, and some people had full on meltdowns about it. Despite the fact that the name they knew him by was fake, and he had been illegally going by it for decades, lol, and none of them even knew his real name. Long story, not nearly as interesting as it sounds.

nereo

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #114 on: November 21, 2021, 05:15:19 AM »

combined with loose definitions of identity allowing change whenever you feel like it and a great assortment of made up new pronouns to pick from, i don't believe the apprehension regarding this law is far fetched

In addition to what Malcat said:  I do not understand how using a person's stated and preferred pronouns can be considered a legitimate burden on the speaker. If you misuse the correct pronoun accidentally there is no legal fault or ramifications. It's only if you maliciously and repeatedly misrepresent a person that you have erred. Either way, it's always good form to ask.

Exactly. If I'm introduced to you as Mary Smith, and I tell you, "I actually go by my middle name, which is Jane," how is it a legitimate burden on you to call me Jane instead of Mary? Would you say, "Hah, screw that, I'm tired of your loose definition of identity allowing change whenever you feel like it. I'm calling you Mary."

The only issue I've had with this is that it rarely has been I'll introduce myself as this name. That's no problem. Instead, it's usually, I've know the person for months/years, and then the name changes. That's challenging for me to remember. Also, I've struggled with pronouns multiple times - mostly either because the person physically looks like the other gender or because they want to use they and calling someone they is never going to be intuitive for me.

All that being said, I've also never gotten yelled at for using the wrong pronoun or name inadvertently, so it's never been an issue.

Sure, but people changing what they are called has been a cultural norm for centuries. People get married and take their spouse’s name.  A student becomes a doctor, or a rabbi, or a professor and gains a title. Kids drop their less formal nicknames to sound more grownup (e.g. “billy” decides to go by “william”). Parents split and remarry, leaving the kids with new surnames. A person takes a stage name, or a pen-name (nom de plume). After being released from prison a person wishes to make a ‘fresh start.’  Or a person changes their name to escape the stigma of an unreputible relative.  Many change their names when they move to a new country to better assimilate, or because their old name proves difficult to pronounce for the locals.

It seems we accept name changes for so many reasons but for whatever reason this one has become a sticky subject.  We don’t seem to mind when Lizzy Smith gets married and chooses to go by Elizabeth Hendricks; why is it so different when Lizzy decides to go by Lenny?

All good points. I will say that last name changes aren't quite the same as first name given most people establish identity in their mind based on first name.  Also,  I struggle with people that change their names in general, and I don't think I'm alone.  I know of a couple people unrelated to trans situations that changed what they wanted to be called substantially,  and I'm not great about either one of their new names.  Also, even though no one has yelled at me about it, there's a certain level of tension that comes with missing a name in this situation that doesn't in the others.

None of this should be construed as complaining. I in no way have it rough or anything. However,  I also believe it's not as simple as "just use the new name/ pronoun as it's often presented."

I work in an industry where all of my colleagues and I go by our last names, and changing last names has never been an issue.

Funny story. The only time I've seen someone changing their last name be an issue is when DH took my last name, and some people had full on meltdowns about it. Despite the fact that the name they knew him by was fake, and he had been illegally going by it for decades, lol, and none of them even knew his real name. Long story, not nearly as interesting as it sounds.

When my BIL got married they decided to hyphenate their last name. As in - both took the new surname.  When he went to the town clerk to make the name-change official the older woman had a minor fit about it, and there was a minor kurfluffle before she relented and admitted that he had the legal right to do so.

Five years in and they love their shared surname. I’m not aware of anyone complaining besides that one town clerk who couldn’t get past a man changing his last name.

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #115 on: November 21, 2021, 06:46:00 AM »

combined with loose definitions of identity allowing change whenever you feel like it and a great assortment of made up new pronouns to pick from, i don't believe the apprehension regarding this law is far fetched

In addition to what Malcat said:  I do not understand how using a person's stated and preferred pronouns can be considered a legitimate burden on the speaker. If you misuse the correct pronoun accidentally there is no legal fault or ramifications. It's only if you maliciously and repeatedly misrepresent a person that you have erred. Either way, it's always good form to ask.

Exactly. If I'm introduced to you as Mary Smith, and I tell you, "I actually go by my middle name, which is Jane," how is it a legitimate burden on you to call me Jane instead of Mary? Would you say, "Hah, screw that, I'm tired of your loose definition of identity allowing change whenever you feel like it. I'm calling you Mary."

The only issue I've had with this is that it rarely has been I'll introduce myself as this name. That's no problem. Instead, it's usually, I've know the person for months/years, and then the name changes. That's challenging for me to remember. Also, I've struggled with pronouns multiple times - mostly either because the person physically looks like the other gender or because they want to use they and calling someone they is never going to be intuitive for me.

All that being said, I've also never gotten yelled at for using the wrong pronoun or name inadvertently, so it's never been an issue.

Sure, but people changing what they are called has been a cultural norm for centuries. People get married and take their spouse’s name.  A student becomes a doctor, or a rabbi, or a professor and gains a title. Kids drop their less formal nicknames to sound more grownup (e.g. “billy” decides to go by “william”). Parents split and remarry, leaving the kids with new surnames. A person takes a stage name, or a pen-name (nom de plume). After being released from prison a person wishes to make a ‘fresh start.’  Or a person changes their name to escape the stigma of an unreputible relative.  Many change their names when they move to a new country to better assimilate, or because their old name proves difficult to pronounce for the locals.

It seems we accept name changes for so many reasons but for whatever reason this one has become a sticky subject.  We don’t seem to mind when Lizzy Smith gets married and chooses to go by Elizabeth Hendricks; why is it so different when Lizzy decides to go by Lenny?

All good points. I will say that last name changes aren't quite the same as first name given most people establish identity in their mind based on first name.  Also,  I struggle with people that change their names in general, and I don't think I'm alone.  I know of a couple people unrelated to trans situations that changed what they wanted to be called substantially,  and I'm not great about either one of their new names.  Also, even though no one has yelled at me about it, there's a certain level of tension that comes with missing a name in this situation that doesn't in the others.

None of this should be construed as complaining. I in no way have it rough or anything. However,  I also believe it's not as simple as "just use the new name/ pronoun as it's often presented."

I work in an industry where all of my colleagues and I go by our last names, and changing last names has never been an issue.

Funny story. The only time I've seen someone changing their last name be an issue is when DH took my last name, and some people had full on meltdowns about it. Despite the fact that the name they knew him by was fake, and he had been illegally going by it for decades, lol, and none of them even knew his real name. Long story, not nearly as interesting as it sounds.

Fair enough. Perhaps the problem in my recent situation, which I'm thinking of, is that I've had 4 or so people in the span of a couple of months change names/pronouns, and I have missed them several times unintentionally not through lack of trying. All of this is to say that I've not been consistent but not because I'm not trying.

Malcat

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #116 on: November 21, 2021, 07:54:55 AM »
Fair enough. Perhaps the problem in my recent situation, which I'm thinking of, is that I've had 4 or so people in the span of a couple of months change names/pronouns, and I have missed them several times unintentionally not through lack of trying. All of this is to say that I've not been consistent but not because I'm not trying.

That's the thing, there's making mistakes and there's purposefully disrespecting people.

My first name gets mistaken all the time. It's rare and similar enough to a common name that people will literally read it off of paper as the more common name. It's no big deal, I just respond to both.

But if someone *intentionally* started calling me by the wrong name after repeated requests not to, I would be fucking livid. And my name has nothing to do with a serious mental health condition like gender dysmorphia, which comes with ENORMOUS risk of death. Gender dysmorphia is currently one of the deadliest diagnoses in existence, and disproportionately deadly for young people.

When we look at it that way, that this is a life and death matter for children...seems kind of insane to get butt hurt about protecting them.

If I were in a workplace and someone were purposefully going out of their way to use the wrong name for me with malicious intent, I would have grounds to lodge a harassment complaint against them. But if an older, somewhat forgetful or dyslexic staff member could just never get my name right, I would have no case. In fact I had a boss who never, not once in 7 years got my name right, and we were really close friends.

When it comes to the law, intent matters

ExitViaTheCashRamp

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #117 on: November 21, 2021, 03:05:11 PM »
.... a serious mental health condition like gender dysmorphia, which comes with ENORMOUS risk of death. Gender dysmorphia is currently one of the deadliest diagnoses in existence, and disproportionately deadly for young people.

  Whilst you may feel you are defending trans folk, you are really doing them no favours here. For years trans folk and their supporters have been trying to stop trans status being considered a mental health condition. Even the slow, lumbering bureaucracy of the WHO changed their stance here a couple of years ago https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48448804

 Such a diagnosis is not deadly for young people, cancer, heart defects, parental abuse and many more are far, far bigger killers of young people in absolute terms. Don't frighten those coming out with fake news.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #118 on: November 21, 2021, 03:15:09 PM »
Fair enough. Perhaps the problem in my recent situation, which I'm thinking of, is that I've had 4 or so people in the span of a couple of months change names/pronouns, and I have missed them several times unintentionally not through lack of trying. All of this is to say that I've not been consistent but not because I'm not trying.

That's the thing, there's making mistakes and there's purposefully disrespecting people.

My first name gets mistaken all the time. It's rare and similar enough to a common name that people will literally read it off of paper as the more common name. It's no big deal, I just respond to both.

But if someone *intentionally* started calling me by the wrong name after repeated requests not to, I would be fucking livid. And my name has nothing to do with a serious mental health condition like gender dysmorphia, which comes with ENORMOUS risk of death. Gender dysmorphia is currently one of the deadliest diagnoses in existence, and disproportionately deadly for young people.

When we look at it that way, that this is a life and death matter for children...seems kind of insane to get butt hurt about protecting them.

If I were in a workplace and someone were purposefully going out of their way to use the wrong name for me with malicious intent, I would have grounds to lodge a harassment complaint against them. But if an older, somewhat forgetful or dyslexic staff member could just never get my name right, I would have no case. In fact I had a boss who never, not once in 7 years got my name right, and we were really close friends.

When it comes to the law, intent matters

I agree it's a serious issue, and I'm not butt hurt about it or anything (hope I'm not coming off as that). As long as the narrative remains on, "How does it hurt you to try to do it? Just do your best" I'm great with it. This has not always been the case with people who have accused me of being transphobic for using someone's old name by accident. Ironically, it has never been by trans people, who have been appreciative of my efforts. Again, not trying to be butt hurt or claim I'm in any way a victim here. I do know, though, that comments like what were made to me are not helpful to the overall cause.

Malcat

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #119 on: November 21, 2021, 03:44:14 PM »
.... a serious mental health condition like gender dysmorphia, which comes with ENORMOUS risk of death. Gender dysmorphia is currently one of the deadliest diagnoses in existence, and disproportionately deadly for young people.

  Whilst you may feel you are defending trans folk, you are really doing them no favours here. For years trans folk and their supporters have been trying to stop trans status being considered a mental health condition. Even the slow, lumbering bureaucracy of the WHO changed their stance here a couple of years ago https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48448804

 Such a diagnosis is not deadly for young people, cancer, heart defects, parental abuse and many more are far, far bigger killers of young people in absolute terms. Don't frighten those coming out with fake news.

I didn't say being trans was a mental health issue, I said gender dysmorphia is, which by definition, is only a pathology when it significantly negatively affects someone's life, something can't be a pathology if the person is functioning well, which many trans people do. I'm going by what I've learned in clinical counselling. But you are entitled to disagree.

Never ever would I say that being trans is a pathology. Nor does the psychological community in my country.

nereo

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #120 on: November 22, 2021, 11:12:55 AM »
Thought I’d drop this here:


maizefolk

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Re: Don't Be Fooled by The Retirement Lie
« Reply #121 on: November 22, 2021, 11:39:25 AM »
Thought I’d drop this here:



Every day someone is famous on twitter. And the absolutely best we can each hope for is to never EVER be that person.