Author Topic: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)  (Read 32310 times)

Nate R

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2013, 11:28:50 AM »
OK, I can't take this, it's pretty bad sounding. The relationship needs to improve or the money side likely never will. There's resentment on both sides, and that won't go away if she magically spent less. There seems to be a lot of covert contracts in the relationship as well. I don't think splitting finances will solve that, either.

Forget the mushy stuff, Joet. I don't think a sit-down talk will work this all out. You need drastic changes to alter the course of your marriage so that you can start to even think about more FI progress.

2 books: No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert A. Glover (On Paper, Audio or Kindle) will be a good start. If the described individual in the book sounds like you, it may open your eyes on how to handle your relationship differently, and help you understand/deal wtih resentment you may have.

2nd book: Look up "MMSL Primer" on Amazon.  Athol's blog and now forum will answer any questions the book doesn't.

Neither of these is mushy garbage psycho-babble on "how to better compromise," but should instead give you insight to your own life and person, and how to better relate to your wife and move forward. Both combined along with time, blog and forum reading, etc, have given me a whole different idea on how to operate within my marriage. (And as you can see from the reviews on Amazon, etc, THEY WORK.)

Bottom line, if you read both and apply them to your life, you'll end up a much better and happier person regardless. If you can use the tools there to get your relationship going in the right direction, THEN you can probably start working on the spending. But I honestly don't think th other way around will work.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 11:33:55 AM by Nate R »

eil

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2013, 03:12:32 PM »
Joet, I sorta skimmed the last 1/2 of this thread so I hope I'm not missing anything super important. But from what I can gather, you and your wife are not on the same page. In fact, if talk of split incomes or divorce keeps coming up, it sounds almost as if your relationship is, well, not very solid at the moment.

My wife and I are not on the same page when it comes to the saving/spending yet and I also get a severe reaction whenever I suggest that we should be spending our money (or rather, not spending it) more wisely. She takes it very personally because she perceives it as criticism against her. I have to spend way more time explaining to her that I'm not attacking her than we end up spending just talking about the financial stuff. But I have a bit more leverage in my case because I'm the only wage earner. Since I make the money, I get to make the rules on how it's spent.

A random question: Does you wife come from a well-to-do family? Did they pay for her education and do they continue to provide monetary "gifts" or other forms of financial aid?

What I would do in your place (given the limited amount of information I have on your situation) is read the book "The Millionaire Next Door" by Stanley and Danko. (And in true MMM fashion, you should check it out from the library rather than buy it.) You can skim through parts, it's actually a short read, but the core message is this: Those who spend like they are millionaires aren't millionaires, or eventually won't be. They also make the point that it's very difficult (indeed, almost unheard of) to ween someone off a high-spending lifestyle if they grew up accustomed to it.

Then, after you've read the book, I'd suggest having her read it. Make it a condition of your continued marriage if you must. After she's read it, have a talk with her about the book. Her responses may or may not inform your next decision.

You have a tough road ahead of you, but I do wish you luck.

kkbmustang

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2013, 05:21:24 PM »
Since I make the money, I get to make the rules on how it's spent.


This might be part of your problem.

Undecided

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2013, 05:25:21 PM »
Since I make the money, I get to make the rules on how it's spent.


This might be part of your problem.

Yes, but, if kkbmustang makes the money and would like to stop making money, and the spouse is totally happy with things as they are, it's going to be a problem for one or the other either way, right?

kkbmustang

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2013, 05:33:57 PM »
Since I make the money, I get to make the rules on how it's spent.


This might be part of your problem.

Yes, but, if kkbmustang makes the money and would like to stop making money, and the spouse is totally happy with things as they are, it's going to be a problem for one or the other either way, right?

My point is that regardless of who makes the money, it's a partnership. Both need to be in agreement. I've outearned my husband my entire career and his by 3 to 1 and I've never once rubbed his face in it. What good would that do? Previously I wanted to quit and be a SAHM, which he supported, even though our household income was completely slashed. When he wanted to get his master's degree, I went back to work. It's a give and take. No one person dictates anything.

swick

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2013, 05:34:14 PM »
Since I make the money, I get to make the rules on how it's spent.


This might be part of your problem.

Yes, but, if kkbmustang makes the money and would like to stop making money, and the spouse is totally happy with things as they are, it's going to be a problem for one or the other either way, right?

It was worded in such a way that would instantly piss off anyone who has ever taken time off either short term or long tern to raise a family - which is as much or more work then working outside of the home. It denotes a power trip and a lack of communication and respect which should be present in a healthy relationship regardless of who is earning the money.

BPA

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2013, 05:36:27 PM »
Have you considered abandoning mustachianism since neither one of you seem to be wholly on board?


kkbmustang

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2013, 05:45:32 PM »
Have you considered abandoning mustachianism since neither one of you seem to be wholly on board?

I don't think being an asshole is a requirement of Mustachianism.

Undecided

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2013, 05:50:46 PM »
Since I make the money, I get to make the rules on how it's spent.


This might be part of your problem.

Yes, but, if kkbmustang makes the money and would like to stop making money, and the spouse is totally happy with things as they are, it's going to be a problem for one or the other either way, right?

It was worded in such a way that would instantly piss off anyone who has ever taken time off either short term or long tern to raise a family - which is as much or more work then working outside of the home. It denotes a power trip and a lack of communication and respect which should be present in a healthy relationship regardless of who is earning the money.

I guess, but I'm sure any number of primary-caregiver parents has essentially said the equivalent in regard to child-rearing views expressed by the non-primary-caregiving parent, and not seen any irony in it.

kkbmustang

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2013, 05:54:00 PM »
Have you considered abandoning mustachianism since neither one of you seem to be wholly on board?

I don't think being an asshole is a requirement of Mustachianism.

My bad. BPA wasn't responding to me. Whoops!

Sorry BPA.

BPA

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2013, 05:54:46 PM »
Have you considered abandoning mustachianism since neither one of you seem to be wholly on board?

I don't think being an asshole is a requirement of Mustachianism.

My bad. BPA wasn't responding to me. Whoops!



Sorry BPA.

lol  No problem.  I'm still giggling.

kkbmustang

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2013, 06:03:51 PM »
Since I make the money, I get to make the rules on how it's spent.


This might be part of your problem.

Yes, but, if kkbmustang makes the money and would like to stop making money, and the spouse is totally happy with things as they are, it's going to be a problem for one or the other either way, right?

It was worded in such a way that would instantly piss off anyone who has ever taken time off either short term or long tern to raise a family - which is as much or more work then working outside of the home. It denotes a power trip and a lack of communication and respect which should be present in a healthy relationship regardless of who is earning the money.

I guess, but I'm sure any number of primary-caregiver parents has essentially said the equivalent in regard to child-rearing views expressed by the non-primary-caregiving parent, and not seen any irony in it.

I'm gonna go with no on that one, too.

swick

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2013, 06:05:06 PM »
Since I make the money, I get to make the rules on how it's spent.


This might be part of your problem.

Yes, but, if kkbmustang makes the money and would like to stop making money, and the spouse is totally happy with things as they are, it's going to be a problem for one or the other either way, right?

It was worded in such a way that would instantly piss off anyone who has ever taken time off either short term or long tern to raise a family - which is as much or more work then working outside of the home. It denotes a power trip and a lack of communication and respect which should be present in a healthy relationship regardless of who is earning the money.

I guess, but I'm sure any number of primary-caregiver parents has essentially said the equivalent in regard to child-rearing views expressed by the non-primary-caregiving parent, and not seen any irony in it.

That is how it seems to work in many relationships - which doesn't make that behavior anymore healthy. It does highlight underlying issues - as does trying to control someone though money, instead of old fashioned communication. 

But as  the OP doesn't have children (neither do I if that matters) this isn't entirely relevant and OP is probably not going to get anything useful from this little side-track.

Joet

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2013, 08:05:17 PM »
Have you considered abandoning mustachianism since neither one of you seem to be wholly on board?

was there anything that struck you as particularly mustachian for trying to reduce spending down to the ~$9k/mo level to reach FI more quickly?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 08:10:57 PM by Joet »

kaeldra

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2013, 01:17:35 AM »
My wife LOVES the place, and invited my brother and his wife [about the only couple that regularly travels with us], we've gone with other groups of friends before, too...She calls it her 'spiritual getaway' whatever that means [I read it as she hates her job]

Someone else suggested discussing what FI would look like for you...sounds like she's set on working but perhaps hasn't considered the alternatives. Maybe you could suggest that if you got your expenses under control / didn't have to work, you could MOVE to the place that she loves so much. Get a place with a guest bedroom and get your brother to come stay with you there :)

One example is our lawn maintenance/repair/design/etc. We had a gardener COMPLETELY re-do our front lawn [and back lawn] not once, not twice but THREE times now. It's ridiculous. She literally pays them ~$4k after our grass looks "worn out" to remove, re-sod, replace the lawn because it doesnt look green enough. Forget that that means these same gardeners simply arent doing their job properly. Lets look at that objectively. In the last 6 years I have spent ~$12k to replace my lawn THREE times. I seeded/feeded it once at the proper time [spring] and it came in nicely. But not thick enough for her tastes. In come the gardeners and the check gets written. I finally told her that if I see another gardener replacing my lawn AGAIN I am moving out for good. If he does it secretly and is done by the time I get home same deal. Try me. Fortunately it has been about 2 years since the last time we completely re-sodded the lawn again but I'm still wincing from the checks if you can't tell.

Get rid of the lawn, or as much of it as you can - that's what parks are for! Check out Food Not Lawns, or if growing food's not your thang, the landscaping books "Beautiful No-Mow Yards: 50 Amazing Lawn Alternatives" or "Lawn Gone!: Low-Maintenance, Sustainable, Attractive Alternatives for Your Yard" (I've only read the first one myself).

BPA

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2013, 04:00:25 AM »
Have you considered abandoning mustachianism since neither one of you seem to be wholly on board?

was there anything that struck you as particularly mustachian for trying to reduce spending down to the ~$9k/mo level to reach FI more quickly?


For the vast majority of us, "trying to reduce the spending down to $9k" a month is ridiculously un-mustachian.  You have to really ask yourself if the potential demise of your relationship is worth your own less than half-hearted attempt to become more frugal to reach FI, because divorce is going to cost you a lot more than the $1k a month or so you seem to think is so impressive. 

Seriously.  Lately it seems that so many people willfully don't get it.

happy

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2013, 04:33:25 AM »
I was thinking the same thing and wondering how to say it politely...guess its a face punch even if you put it in a velvet glove.

limeandpepper

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2013, 04:36:57 AM »
I think you missed the snark. He realises that it's un-mustachian and unimpressive. I think that is exactly what frustrates him right now, that he can't even come to a happy agreement with his wife to cut spending down to 9k/month which is still very lavish. I don't think it's so much about needing to be frugal (since they're already saving a lot due to their high salaries, even if as a percentage of income it is not fantastic) but at this point it seems to be more about at least wanting to start to move in a more sustainable and frugal direction, even if slowly and gradually.

happy

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2013, 05:04:34 AM »
I'm Ok with modified mustachian, I really am: I'm still slow to get my expenses down too, so I do identify that for high income earners it feels nearly as hard as  for low earners, even though the low earners rightfully could fall on the floor laughing at how ridiculously easy it should be.  I personally am taking a slow staged approach..so I get that, completely.

I guess I feel frustrated that Smallife wrote a beautiful post with lovely nips and ticks that got OP down to 5.5k a month. And still kept the dog walker ( bangs head on hand). To get from 10 to 9 k,  OP only has to take  2 or 3 or 4 of those nips and tucks........

If you ask me walking the dog is a free FUN activity, interacting with pets REDUCES STRESS and gets you out of the house for EXERCISE and VIT D.... so I reckon dropping the dog walker and doing it yourself is a very efficient optimizing mustachian move and gets one third of the way to the 1k target.

smalllife

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2013, 05:37:19 AM »
I guess I feel frustrated that Smallife wrote a beautiful post with lovely nips and ticks that got OP down to 5.5k a month. And still kept the dog walker ( bangs head on hand). To get from 10 to 9 k,  OP only has to take  2 or 3 or 4 of those nips and tucks........

Aw, thank you! 

KMMK

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2013, 06:56:50 AM »
I think you missed the snark. He realises that it's un-mustachian and unimpressive. I think that is exactly what frustrates him right now, that he can't even come to a happy agreement with his wife to cut spending down to 9k/month which is still very lavish. I don't think it's so much about needing to be frugal (since they're already saving a lot due to their high salaries, even if as a percentage of income it is not fantastic) but at this point it seems to be more about at least wanting to start to move in a more sustainable and frugal direction, even if slowly and gradually.

Wish we had a "like" button for this post.
It's not about everyone spending the bare minimum, but about doing what makes sense in one own's life.

Constance Noring

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2013, 08:44:53 AM »
It is fun to spend a weekend on the coast with her, and invite my brother. She calls it her 'spiritual getaway' whatever that means [I read it as she hates her job]

The bolded bit jumps out at me. Do you like your job, Joet? Because based on the income figures you've listed, your job alone has a ludicrous take-home, so why is she working a job she hates? Is it solely to have money to spend on "us"?

I'm nth-ing counselling, not just for your relationship, but personally as well, because it sounds like (to this armchair psychologist) that she's really not very happy and is using money to self-medicate.

DoubleDown

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2013, 10:34:10 AM »
OK, I can't take this, it's pretty bad sounding. The relationship needs to improve or the money side likely never will. There's resentment on both sides, and that won't go away if she magically spent less. There seems to be a lot of covert contracts in the relationship as well. I don't think splitting finances will solve that, either.

Forget the mushy stuff, Joet. I don't think a sit-down talk will work this all out. You need drastic changes to alter the course of your marriage so that you can start to even think about more FI progress.

2 books: No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert A. Glover (On Paper, Audio or Kindle) will be a good start. If the described individual in the book sounds like you, it may open your eyes on how to handle your relationship differently, and help you understand/deal wtih resentment you may have.

2nd book: Look up "MMSL Primer" on Amazon.  Athol's blog and now forum will answer any questions the book doesn't.

Neither of these is mushy garbage psycho-babble on "how to better compromise," but should instead give you insight to your own life and person, and how to better relate to your wife and move forward. Both combined along with time, blog and forum reading, etc, have given me a whole different idea on how to operate within my marriage. (And as you can see from the reviews on Amazon, etc, THEY WORK.)

Bottom line, if you read both and apply them to your life, you'll end up a much better and happier person regardless. If you can use the tools there to get your relationship going in the right direction, THEN you can probably start working on the spending. But I honestly don't think th other way around will work.

+1

Marital counseling is not likely to solve these issues, the approach (or similar approach) above is the best hope.

Jamesqf

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2013, 10:55:08 AM »
Get rid of the lawn, or as much of it as you can - that's what parks are for!

I think you're not understanding Joet's problem (at least as I see it).  It's not that there was ever anything wrong with the original lawn, it's that his spouse has to spend money changing things.  If they put in a vegetable garden instead, she'd probably have it ripped out when things are just getting ripe, and put in shrubs or a rock garden.  Then next year that would get ripped out...

Same with moving to her "spiritual getaway" place: I would bet that within a few months, she'd be spending as much or more on trips to the city. 

Joet

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2013, 11:20:30 AM »
dont get me wrong, there is a TON of useful information in here...and more reading than I think I could get through in a year or so. But even so it all seems tremendously useful. You know who you are.
I need facepunches too.

Thanks everyone. Perhaps my biggest mistake is thinking I can change 10+ years of behavior in 2-3 weeks. Honestly my true target is probably ~$7k/mo but it isn't going to happen overnight.

Tons of great advice here. I have a thick skin, this is the internet after all. Sometimes the harshest responses are the best. I posted last month about a spending disaster and this post was just a followup---me declaring failure. It's still a disaster lol. Must come as a real 'shocker' to many of you.

Honestly even WITH a ~1k vacation or so to the coast this month we did pull in the budget around $500-ish from our moving average. Not a big win or anything. This still being May or Grocery bill just topped $700 as the wife hit trader joe's on the way home from work. But the restaurant bills are coming down. She likes to buy expensive food no doubt and I eat it eagerly. Baby steps. Maybe lentils next week :)

BPA

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #75 on: June 01, 2013, 08:11:05 AM »
I think you missed the snark. He realises that it's un-mustachian and unimpressive. I think that is exactly what frustrates him right now, that he can't even come to a happy agreement with his wife to cut spending down to 9k/month which is still very lavish. I don't think it's so much about needing to be frugal (since they're already saving a lot due to their high salaries, even if as a percentage of income it is not fantastic) but at this point it seems to be more about at least wanting to start to move in a more sustainable and frugal direction, even if slowly and gradually.

There was no snark.  It was even a gentle face punch.  I was being honest about the several posts other than this one that I saw him post.  Seriously.  I agree that people have to find their own solutions, but that others here are advocating divorce seems completely unmustachian to me.  He doesn't seem completely on board from other posts he's made.  And if he isn't, is it worth putting his relationship in jeopardy?  I was being nice.  I don't want to see his marriage tank because he thinks he could be more frugal and his wife won't let him be. 

This guy's whole life happiness could be in jeopardy for following a lifestyle he doesn't seem to wholly believe in.

Edited to add:  And please read the thread title:  "I could use another face-punch."  What you call snark, I call a reality check. 
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 08:14:29 AM by BPA »

limeandpepper

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #76 on: June 01, 2013, 08:13:37 AM »
There was no snark.  It was even a gentle face punch. 

Snark on his part, not yours. :)

BPA

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #77 on: June 01, 2013, 08:21:02 AM »
There was no snark.  It was even a gentle face punch. 

Snark on his part, not yours. :)

Ah.  Okay.  Sorry.  Jeez.  I think I need to step away from this thread.  It seems like the Twilight Zone.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  Yep.  I'm definitely stepping away from this thread. 

After one last thing.  ;)  Joet:  Please.  I know that there are reasons to leave a marriage, and that money is an issue often.  Please think hard and carefully about how on board you are with things and whether it's worth it.  I am not a fan of when people advocate marital break-ups for achieving FI.  I always find it unfair to the other spouse who was used to life being one way until the poster discovers FIRE.  Like others have said, I don't think throwing a marriage away is a good idea at this point. 

And sorry again, LandP.

Joet

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #78 on: June 01, 2013, 01:56:37 PM »
I apologize for being snarky--its in my nature. You guys are helpful--TREMENDOUSLY. I have no idea who I could talk to about these issues [I guess other than a marriage counselor---ugh]

So we had our much delayed "TALK" a moment ago. Some arguing, some yelling, some overly pedantic diatribe from me [oops], and we more-or-less circled back to the $9k figure for a monthly spend. I do love my wife a lot, we just disagree on spending. A lot. Looking back, we always have. I think the middle road here [whatever that is] is worth pursuing.

Dog Walker is done as soon as the doggie door is settled. So is the home phone. My July bonus drops off the car payment and we'll hang on to these anti-mustachian cars for another 5-6 years solidly. My mustang is on the chopping block but she couldnt care less she says.

We I'm sure we didn't really settle anything specifically but more of a process where we agree on the general principle of looking to spend ~9k/mo average include ALL expenses with the goal of establishing a nice stash of cash.

YNAB seems 'out' due to the annoyance factor of entering all spending while spending. But she says logging into our mint account/checking the main credit card balance and looking at categories once in a while works. She promises to 'try' to not act annoyed when I announce if we are 'ahead of spend plan' in a given month. It looks like I have been nagging a lot on this topic lately. Seperate finances dont seem necessary she says, and cash spending seems unneccessary according to her. I'm not convinced of that but it doesnt really matter all I care about is getting the budget down. Method not particularly important, imo

Also of note is as I get up there in age [pushing 40!] my tech career could fizzle out a bit. *knock on wood*, who knows. One strong pillar of my future financial stability has always been her career. Let me be clear in that she definitely out-earns her spending---it's not even close.

So hopefully with this 9k budget "agreed on", we also agreed that as the dog walker, land line, and car payment exit the picture [~1250] we can then boost say the optional vacation/her spending categories a bit and get down to $8k/mo. Woo! [beginning in July-thereabouts when the car payoff event occurs, dog walker elimination at some point before this]

I'm sure I'm still a poster-child for the anti-MMM wall of shame, but this will represent ~55-60% of net income savings rate. I would call that a HUGE success over prior months/years where we averaged 10.5k or thereabouts. Like you guys have said: shouldnt be that hard to drop down a K or 2.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 02:03:13 PM by Joet »

kkbmustang

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #79 on: June 01, 2013, 08:29:26 PM »
Yay!  Great news.

huadpe

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #80 on: June 01, 2013, 10:07:45 PM »
I'm gonna second (eighth?  tenth?) the marriage counseling thing.  You need it badly.

I would say given where you are, you need to ask what your priorities are.  Your spending, while lavish, is actually okay given your income.  I say it is okay in the sense that it will allow you to save enough to be comfortable the rest of your lives if you work until old age. 

As your wife sees it, based on your description, once the "we're gonna be ok" line is reached, then the goal of earning more money is increased consumption.  Obviously, the mustachean viewpoint disagrees with this strongly, but it is not an uncommon view. 

From her (again not uncommon) viewpoint, you have developed some crazy obsession with money and frugality and want to live way below your income, to the point where her social circles would notice this (not going on the in-laws trips, not having the big fancy car or new designer clothes).    Given that with your incomes you really can afford those things, although at the cost of having to work til a "normal" retirement age, and with less financial security in your lives than you otherwise would have.

Normally, I'd advise the way to bring her on board to financial independence is to start from a position of not attacking spending, but talking about goals.  Talk about what the freedom of being independent would mean to both of you in regards to free time, less stress, and more meaningful uses of your lives.  But that ain't gonna work here.

From how you've put it, you're way past the point where you can influence her to a change of heart.  This has gotten acrimonious enough to where both of you are at battlestations and the "D" word is flying.  Any words that come out of your mouth are going to be seen as an attack, and you need professional intervention to get the shields down to where you can communicate again. 

You also need to see her side of things.  This forum and the MMM blog are ammunition for a particular viewpoint.  It's a small minority viewpoint, and so it tends to engender a bit of an aggressive and radical "let's change the world" kind of spirit.  That spirit is not gonna help you here.  I would try to think about how I can be empathetic to her viewpoint.  For most people, their financial lives have the goal of extreme plenty, and that the ability to do what you want and buy those nice things is why you work so hard in the first place.  You're then coming in and asking her to work hard, but not get any of those nice things.  And she resents it.

As things are, this center cannot hold.  You cannot out-earn her desire to consume, and she cannot be forced to submit to your control.  Get help, and not from an internet forum.

EDIT TO ADD:

I posted this without seeing your latest update.  Glad to see you're in a more amicable spot, and I do hope things work well for you.  And anything over 50% savings rate is pretty fantastic by almost any non-crazy-mustache-people standard, so don't despair.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 10:28:11 PM by huadpe »

jamccain

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #81 on: June 02, 2013, 12:14:01 AM »
Joet, if you figure out your wife...let me know how!!!

I think I lay out some nice stuff here, but it's a long post so please stay with me through it...

I have a very similar situation....my wife earns a lot and spends a lot, but certainly earns her keep.  She doesn't really see a need to spend less, but will play along to keep me at bay.  She has agreed to and is using YNAB, but only to track spending.  She has not agreed to curtail spending if she runs out of money in a category yet.  She knows this is the end goal for YNAB and has agreed to "try it" in the future.  I have done a lot of the same things you are doing with the leading by example thing...it doesn't work overnight!!!  Slowly...slowly, she is taking notice, and I see it in small minor ways only. 

I am trying to take our expenses (not including rent in LA) from $6.5K a month to $3K.  So, more than a 50% drop in spending.  In the past, I've tried to do this in a month...to horrible failure.  Just like you say, you're trying to do this in 2-3 weeks.  This time I am taking the slow, slow, slow approach and am giving us a full calendar year to adjust our spending.  This is how it is playing out so far...

Month 1: $6500
Month 2: $6000
Month 3: $5000
Month 4: TBD

So, we are moving in the right direction and it's giving us some time to adjust to it.  The hardest work is ahead of us, but it's happening.  So far, we've sold the second car ($480 month), gotten our son out of before and after school care for good ($450 month), and cut $600 off the food.  Still left to tackle; even more wasteful food spending, buying stupid junk, too many clothes, cell phone service, and then it'll get really tough. 

My strategy:  I looked at the budget and outlined the easiest stuff...Child care was easiest because it just so happened our son was outgrowing it...just had to have the conversation with the wife and a quick win.  Next, was the car (yes, we fought about it, but after about three small "disagreements" and six weeks or so I won that war), then was food, which required me doing all the shopping and cooking, and setting the example with eating out.  I still have work to do there.  We are adjusting to eating at home more though, but going cold turkey would have been bad I think for my wife. 

Now that we've cut the easiest stuff I am moving to the next thing.  I am going to put the emphasis on the biggest line item this month to see how much progress we can make.  It's wasteful junk spending on who knows what which is somehow at over $1K a month right now.  After I get some results here I plan on moving to the next highest line item and repeating this. 

Eventually, I'll get to the small stuff like $75 a month for coffee and maybe even one day we can get a women's cut and color for less than $300. :)

It's a process. 

We also started three months ago by defining our goals for the money.  Which included my dreams of FIRE and her dreams of travel.  I laid out the plan to get us both to where we agreed to go and asked for her support and recieved it in spirit, but actions we are working through.  One thing has become apparent to me about this...our values are not completely aligned here.  This is pretty much the exact problem you have...a values mis-alignment.  It's the reason Mr. and Mrs. MMM are in lock step...they have the same values.  I hope it's not too late for us to re-align or find the same path again.  I have ZERO intention of ever divorcing my wife and wouldn't even consider it over a money issue.  But I have to find a way to get our values better aligned. 

I value having money in the bank, she places more value on having a car in the driveway. 
I value having the financial freedom to chase entrepreneurial success, she values not having to fool with that and just getting paid for mind numbing work.
I value time freedom above nearly any possession, she will give you 40 hours a week for a bigger house and not think twice about it.
Etc. Etc.

I can see the vision for the future and believe it is inevitable just following a couple easy steps (easy if you agree).  She can only see the vision as I describe it, but it's foggy in her mind...she's not really sure it can be done (lacks trust or faith perhaps).  Just thinks she'll always have to work so why break our neck saving when their will always be an healthy income stream. 

I suspect you could tell a very similar story to this.  I have a plan to take this one step at a time...starting with re-aligning our values.  Not sure how this will work and I may fail a few times, but it has to be done.  It's the only way for a lifetime of success.  Even if it takes a few years the payoff will be great and long lasting.   They were aligned when we got married and then mine changed...hers haven't caught up yet.  I have to help here get there with me.  I think a big part of it is convincing her...somehow...to take in the same knowledge I take in.  Which means reading some of the same stuff, largely, this blog.  My plan to accomplish this is to ask her to read one blog post a week with me and then discuss it.  If that goes well, I'll try to up the ante to two blog posts a week.  Not sure what the reaction to this will be, but the goal is to get us moving in the same direction...moving our values to be closer aligned.  Another thing I'll do is use real life examples, showing her what others are doing.  I need to make this "dream" of FIRE as real to her as it is to me.  I can't tell her...I have to show her.  I think the final thing I know I want to try is to really get her perspective about what is important with our financial future and understand that.  What is she thinking that I am not understanding and why is she thinking that.  How can I work with that to get us on the same page???  So, three actions for me to take. 

I think I may have it easier than you...I have a good friend who is married to an international wife from an upper class background...whoa the stories he tells.  So, I get the cultural differences you are dealing with (I bet it's a similar, if not the same, country where keeping up with the Jones and saving face is seen as more important than anything else and just ingrained to the culture).  I don't envy you for sure.

I want to make one book recommendation too...  The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work (Gottman and Silver).  I have been to marriage counseling and while it's OK, this book, IMO, is a whole lot better.  It's like counseling, but you don't have a third party there you and the wife just go through it together and do the exercises.  The book will also tell you all the reasons MC doesn't work. 

Keep us informed on how it's going...

Jamesqf

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #82 on: June 02, 2013, 12:32:55 AM »
Also of note is as I get up there in age [pushing 40!] my tech career could fizzle out a bit. *knock on wood*, who knows.

If it's any comfort, I didn't even start working in tech until I was pretty close to your age, and I haven't done at all badly. 

Quote
One strong pillar of my future financial stability has always been her career. Let me be clear in that she definitely out-earns her spending---it's not even close.

Maybe I'm misreading things, but I get the impression that it's not the actual amount she spends that bothers you, as much as it is that she doesn't seem to get value (that is, enjoyment and/or utility) from what she spends money on.  It seems you see her as spending in order to spend, because she can, where you may spend quite a bit on this or that (as do I: e.g. the plane, the horse...), but you get a reasonable return in enjoyment.

Joet

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2013, 11:59:10 AM »
Awesome post jmccain! Wow, will try to respond later. I think I'm several years behind your household-change plan! Sounds rather methodical!

Jamesqf: I don't really know, yeah I guess some things she buys don't make any sense to me. Right we've got the hair/shopping/shoes/clothes, whatever stuff then there's the stuff that just blows my mind... Buying stuff 'because it was on sale' that we never use...that pile up in the closets, etc

smalllife

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #84 on: June 02, 2013, 12:37:54 PM »
I have a somewhat silly question - do either of you have hobbies outside of work?  I didn't see anything in your budget, but the cash might have gone towards something. 

Alternative suggestion: read some books on minimalism ("The Joy of Less" by Francine Jay is a good one.  From the library . . . ), but only apply it to your personal belongings - clothes, etc.  Then, find some sort of cheap hobby for yourself to occupy your time and de-stress after work without spending lots of money.  This is something that doesn't scream "financial decision" which can help you lead by example and begin to break out of the lifestyle rut you are in.

Jamesqf

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #85 on: June 02, 2013, 12:56:05 PM »
Just thinks she'll always have to work so why break our neck saving when their will always be an healthy income stream.

Unfortunately, the only way I know to cure that attitude is to suddenly experience not having the healthy income stream. 

Quote
I have a good friend who is married to an international wife from an upper class background...whoa the stories he tells.  So, I get the cultural differences you are dealing with (I bet it's a similar, if not the same, country where keeping up with the Jones and saving face is seen as more important than anything else and just ingrained to the culture).

Yeah, I have a good (female) friend who married into a similar situation, where for instance the other women in her husband's family think nothing of jetting off from their impoverished home country to buy clothes from "their" Italian designer.  It's not enough to have "designer" fashions, each woman has to have everything from whichever designer they choose to patronize.

PS: A suggestion on the dining out problem.  Learn to put together quick meals at home, then become too busy with (inexpensive) activities, like for instance an after-work bike ride, to have the time to go out to eat.

jamccain

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #86 on: June 02, 2013, 04:46:38 PM »
Just thinks she'll always have to work so why break our neck saving when their will always be an healthy income stream.

Unfortunately, the only way I know to cure that attitude is to suddenly experience not having the healthy income stream. 

Not sure my experience bears this out because I used to have the same attitude as she has now.  My attitude changed, not when I lost my income stream, but when ERE and MMM showed me the way.  Now I am convinced we will get to FIRE in 3-5 years (depending on buy in from her).   She's in the same boat as I was in with her current mentality.  It's up to me to educate her and get her to see that FIRE is not only a possibility, but our future reality. 

If I were to follow your advice I would have to someone wreck and income stream, just to prove a point, that may or may not be made.  Though I do appreciate all advice.  :)

aj_yooper

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #87 on: June 02, 2013, 05:30:28 PM »
Joet, if you figure out your wife...let me know how!!!

jamccain, that was a very insightful post.

lifejoy

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #88 on: June 02, 2013, 06:40:11 PM »
Keep in mind that you're asking mustachians for their $0.02. The rest of the world is very happy to make money and spend it on "frivolous" pleasures.

My boyfriend works hard, makes good money. He would be happy going out for dinner 5 times a week, paying for a maid, etc. Very different than what I'm comfortable with.

We have separate finances, which helps, but we try to compromise. He eats out less often and I eat out more often. We tried setting a food budget for a month, which was really eye-opening.

Honestly, you're in a tough situation. I think the best you could do (maybe?) is to lead by example, hcore. Sell the bikes. Opt out of non-essential trips. Start doing housework and yard work now, so that when you suggest cancelling the services, she can see you're committed. Sell crap you've accumulated and don't need. Set a strict budget for yourself, and inform her of your personal plan. Stop nagging her as much as possible. If she's spending and not going into debt, she probably feels justified. Spend more time with her. Sometimes women shop when they're sad and lonely. Don't expect changes to happen immediately - as you know, things can take time.

Good luck and best wishes :)

Joet

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #89 on: June 02, 2013, 07:51:24 PM »
Found this on the counter after I came back from surfing. Apparently we spent $300 at costco today! Asparagus! Yumm!! Couldnt find any other food items though. I guess it's stuff we 'need'. TBH I really dont care, just try and hit the $9k budget, hun :) I really dont care anymore. After our last chat she can take $5k on June 1st and light it on fire for all the fkucs that I give [as long as we spend at/under $9k/mo with all the placeholders/ghost-entries for the end-of-year vacation and property tax and stuff like that]

I figured I'd share, since I do feel deserving of this spot on the wall of shame. In fact I drove my >40k anti-MMM SUV to santa cruz today, picked up a friend, and surfed for 2-3 hours. Then I gassed up and drove back. woooo. ~65 miles round trip. The waves werent even any good! wheres the marginal utility of that!

But here's the costco receipt, lol! My favorite part is when my wife used to come with me [she doesnt surf] she'd find a way to spend $$$ shopping down in santa cruz while I'm in the water.



$40 worth of beano [yea! for farts!--no I dont take it! hah!]
another $80 or so in cosmetic-ish stuff as far as I can tell. some cat food/treats I guess. At least somebody got some food from costco!

Given that we had just YESTERDAY discussed our finances/budget in detail, I am not saying $hit about this receipt. But I do wonder if she is actually spending under her take-home. I think some months its close.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 08:01:10 PM by Joet »

Another Reader

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #90 on: June 02, 2013, 08:12:21 PM »
Today is the last day of the current Costco coupon mailer.  Looks like she went through and bought what was on sale with a coupon.  She actually spent $230.  Shampoo, toothpaste, cat and dog food, not as bad as I would have guessed from the rant.  She bought the cheap cat food, not the good stuff.  The bath towels....are you low on those?  And I don't think that's asparagus you see.

If you are picking your battles, I personally wouldn't fight this one.

Trade the SUV in for a used Scion.  Then you will have the upper hand in the battle!

tomsang

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #91 on: June 02, 2013, 08:17:10 PM »
Joet love your posts on the various boards, but this thread looks like a train wreck. If you want a face punch, my recommendation would be for you to stop reading and posting on MMM for a month or so. Looking at your stats you are posting 6+ posts per day, which would be great if it is helping your mental health. If you love your wife and want to make it work, I would focus on spending time and money on activities that bring you two back together. I would also highly recommend marriage counseling before it is too late. As a FYI our spending is significantly higher than yours, but we are making gradual progress each month and probably eliminated $4k per month so far. This is suppose to be fun. If it isn't then you are going too fast. My wife initially wasn't on board, but after months of her seeing me read and talk about MMM, she started to read the site. Now she is leading the push to slash our budget. We are having fun with it. I hope the two of you get on the same page, which might require spending more than you want.

ChicagoGirl

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2013, 09:25:50 PM »
I agree with tomsang this is supposed to be fun and challenging to achieve our financial goals. I've been reading this thread hoping to see progress in your goals and attitude and eventually less focus on your frustration with your wife's spending habits.  I was rooting for you and then I see that you posted your wife's Costco receipt and it took the wind out of my sails. Whomp, whomp. Maybe you meant for it to be funny in a sarcastic way which I can appreciate that kind of humor but maybe I am misinterpreting your intention of posting this receipt, because it just seemed kind of a mean-spirited way to make a point. Did anyone else interpret it this way?  Although the excessive amount of Beano made me giggle.  That's a lot of Beano!

Set the example Joet and be positive about it and just let her see the changes you have made in your personal spending and just see if she follows suit.  Ease up just a bit and if you are going to be posting on the Wall of Shame and Comedy, just make it about your own personal missteps, not hers. 

jamccain

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2013, 11:19:46 PM »
Found this on the counter after I came back from surfing. Apparently we spent $300 at costco today! Asparagus! Yumm!! Couldnt find any other food items though. I guess it's stuff we 'need'. TBH I really dont care, just try and hit the $9k budget, hun :) I really dont care anymore. After our last chat she can take $5k on June 1st and light it on fire for all the fkucs that I give [as long as we spend at/under $9k/mo with all the placeholders/ghost-entries for the end-of-year vacation and property tax and stuff like that]

I know where you are...I smile at your posts, but feel the pain too!

After so many disappointments, I got to the point where I just told my wife..."I don't care what you buy, just spend under $X per month (this usually included vacations too which is the only thing she'd save for)".  We had a joint checking account we both used as our primary and really only account.  I calculated how much of my income I could take out of the monthly "budget" to hit my $X spending target.  I had that amount sent to a savings account straight from my paycheck (without ever coming into our joint account) that we could both access, but it was a pain in the butt to get too.  Now our checking account was only funded monthly with my spending goal...before this I made sure their were no credit cards or other sources of hidden money and the savings were "locked" to the best of my ability.  My wife tried to sneak a couple times, but I stayed on top of things. 

It worked very well for us for three years, until this latest round of me trying to get to a targeted budget.  I mean you will still be wasting money, but it preserves sanity and peace in the house and ultimately you aren't always the $$$ bad guy. 

After two years or so, I started tracking spending again and found out we were well under the target nearly every month (every month I was taking out the excess and saving it for "vacations").  I made the case to my wife to lower the target and she agreed.  Somehow, someway during that two years we had started consuming less.  So I lowered the target by 20% and we did that for another year.  No problems again, but it did bug me we were wasting.  This time I thought about just lowering it again another 20% (which would get us to a 70% savings rate), but decided it was time to try for the budget again.  My long long term goal is to do away with the budget because  it even allows for waste (MMM has a blog on this).  The budget is just the middle step to the final goal. 

This method did restore some peace in my house...I hope you keep posting.  IMO, this is your place to vent when you need too. 

Starstuff

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #94 on: June 03, 2013, 11:12:56 AM »
Found this on the counter after I came back from surfing. Apparently we spent $300 at costco today! Asparagus! Yumm!! Couldnt find any other food items though. I guess it's stuff we 'need'. TBH I really dont care, just try and hit the $9k budget, hun :) I really dont care anymore. After our last chat she can take $5k on June 1st and light it on fire for all the fkucs that I give [as long as we spend at/under $9k/mo with all the placeholders/ghost-entries for the end-of-year vacation and property tax and stuff like that]

I figured I'd share, since I do feel deserving of this spot on the wall of shame. In fact I drove my >40k anti-MMM SUV to santa cruz today, picked up a friend, and surfed for 2-3 hours. Then I gassed up and drove back. woooo. ~65 miles round trip. The waves werent even any good! wheres the marginal utility of that!

But here's the costco receipt, lol! My favorite part is when my wife used to come with me [she doesnt surf] she'd find a way to spend $$$ shopping down in santa cruz while I'm in the water.

$40 worth of beano [yea! for farts!--no I dont take it! hah!]
another $80 or so in cosmetic-ish stuff as far as I can tell. some cat food/treats I guess. At least somebody got some food from costco!

Given that we had just YESTERDAY discussed our finances/budget in detail, I am not saying $hit about this receipt. But I do wonder if she is actually spending under her take-home. I think some months its close.

Your attitude drives me up a wall. You keep making posts like, "haha I did something stupid wasteful, but I'm only spending an absurd amount every month, so I don't care because I make more than that!" Please, don't waste your effort caring how your traipsing about burning fossil fuels and buying shitloads of disposable shit effects the rest of the world, because you can afford it haha! wooo! Maybe you've missed what Mustachianism is really about, or maybe you're willfully ignorant. But you need to figure out that the fact that your wallet can afford something doesn't make it right, moral, or acceptable, especially here.

catmustache

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #95 on: June 03, 2013, 01:17:38 PM »
 

Honestly, you're in a tough situation. I think the best you could do (maybe?) is to lead by example, hcore. Sell the bikes. Opt out of non-essential trips. Start doing housework and yard work now, so that when you suggest cancelling the services, she can see you're committed. Sell crap you've accumulated and don't need. Set a strict budget for yourself, and inform her of your personal plan. Stop nagging her as much as possible. If she's spending and not going into debt, she probably feels justified. Spend more time with her. Sometimes women shop when they're sad and lonely.
+1 to this

I try not to give advice to people whose lives are likely better than mine, but here are my 2 cents, based on my own experience. I'm kind of a bulldozer (my way or the highway), which has bitten me in the butt before, so...

1st - I haven't had the money issue you're talking about, but I have had a similar issue with religion with my husband. My husband and I are different religions and I believe in tithing. He does not. After stupid arguments on religion and being supportive and yelling and whatever else for months, I just started paying it from my own salary before anything else comes out. He knows I do it, but I don't ask for his opinion on it and he doesn't give it. It also comes out first, so that money is just gone before any discussions can begin about the validity of it. I do the same thing with savings and honestly, unless we don't have money for something, he forgets all about it because I don't bring it up. He has access to the savings account but is content to let it grow.  I've found that arguing about religion and money in our household just leads to unhappiness, even if the amount of money or time in question is piddly. If your wife doesn't really track spending, she may not care if you just start saving more as long as she doesn't feel the pinch too much.

2nd - I used to be more spendy than I am today and very into making my own life easier (totally needed a maid on my crappy salary, etc.), so I kind of understand your wife. Sometimes, when you're depressed/unhappy/stressed about other things, you feel like you should spend money to be better. I wish I could say I had some deep revelation about spending less, but honestly, I just got jealous after seeing my husband's savings account on a similar salary because he spent less on things. All of his "you should spend less on clothes" or "can we really afford for you to spend money traveling to see your friends" just drove me up the wall and made me feel like spending more. So, it may just be a question of leading by example and shutting up. If you're happier without the stuff, she might see it and decide to be happier as well.


Finally, I've got to agree with the other posts on here. This doesn't seem like a money issue. It seems like a control/relationship issue where each of you feeds the other's anger and bad habits. You don't really need to track how much she's spending, do you? Or tell her that you know how  much she's spending and that it's unreasonable? You just want an end result, which you can go for without her changing her lifestyle just yet.  And if nothing else, it'll be good practice for if you get divorced and have to live off less because of alimony/child support/house refinancing/separation of assets, etc.

eil

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #96 on: June 03, 2013, 05:10:58 PM »
Since I make the money, I get to make the rules on how it's spent.


This might be part of your problem.

I like how the entirety of my post was completely ignored at the expense of one line that I could have wrote a little more tactfully but still wouldn't have been any less true.

My wife and I are very much partners in our household. She is a stay-at-home mom while I have the career. We consider each other equals. We make decisions together and share responsibilities. Yesterday, we went on a day-long date for our 10th anniversary and are closer to each other now than we've ever been. She is in fact, the one who said that because it's my career that provides for our family, I have ultimate veto power over the expenses. She said that, not me. Like any couple, we have our issues. But we communicate and work through them.

I was genuinely interested in Joet's problem and tried to offer constructive advice. I thought that since MMM seems to be a pretty cool and open-minded guy, that the participants on his forum might be the same. Pity to see that I was wrong.

Anyway, to Joet: I wish you luck and hope you're able to resolve this in the least painful way possible.

kkbmustang

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2013, 05:23:31 PM »
Since I make the money, I get to make the rules on how it's spent.


This might be part of your problem.

I like how the entirety of my post was completely ignored at the expense of one line that I could have wrote a little more tactfully but still wouldn't have been any less true.

My wife and I are very much partners in our household. She is a stay-at-home mom while I have the career. We consider each other equals. We make decisions together and share responsibilities. Yesterday, we went on a day-long date for our 10th anniversary and are closer to each other now than we've ever been. She is in fact, the one who said that because it's my career that provides for our family, I have ultimate veto power over the expenses. She said that, not me. Like any couple, we have our issues. But we communicate and work through them.

I was genuinely interested in Joet's problem and tried to offer constructive advice. I thought that since MMM seems to be a pretty cool and open-minded guy, that the participants on his forum might be the same. Pity to see that I was wrong.

Anyway, to Joet: I wish you luck and hope you're able to resolve this in the least painful way possible.

Congratulations on 10 years of marriage. That's great. I'm sure you had a lovely time on your day-long date.

I'm not quite sure how you get from MMM being a cool and open-minded guy, to a couple of forum participants calling you out on your, in my opinion, bullshit statement, to concluding that either: (i) all forum participants; and/or (ii) I (since I was the one who initially objected to your statement), are/am neither cool nor open-minded. I am open-minded, just like you are likely not a total douche. I just have a low threshold for bullshit. I thought your statement was a jerk thing to say and I called you on it. That's it.

sherr

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2013, 08:12:11 AM »
I like how the entirety of my post was completely ignored at the expense of one line that I could have wrote a little more tactfully but still wouldn't have been any less true.

I was genuinely interested in Joet's problem and tried to offer constructive advice. I thought that since MMM seems to be a pretty cool and open-minded guy, that the participants on his forum might be the same. Pity to see that I was wrong.
I'm not quite sure how you get from MMM being a cool and open-minded guy, to a couple of forum participants calling you out on your, in my opinion, bullshit statement, to concluding that either: (i) all forum participants; and/or (ii) I (since I was the one who initially objected to your statement), are/am neither cool nor open-minded. I am open-minded, just like you are likely not a total douche. I just have a low threshold for bullshit. I thought your statement was a jerk thing to say and I called you on it. That's it.

I agree with eil, you are not being open-minded. The constant name-calling doesn't help any. An open-minded individual would acknowledge that a partnership can manage their finances any way they want to, including giving the wage-earner veto power on finances. That may not be how your partnership chooses to do things, but that does not give you the right to dictate how everyone else should do things.

Eil and his wife have a solution to this problem that works for them. He attempted to share it with the OP since he thought it was relevant. Disagreeing that it's an optimal solution is one thing, and that can be handled tactfully. Launching a personal attack on the character of the poster is quite another, as well as completely discounting his solution as "bullshit". I think that if anyone has been acting like a jerk here, it's you.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 08:19:39 AM by sherr »

kkbmustang

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Re: I could use another face-punch (re: household finances)
« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2013, 08:24:49 AM »
I like how the entirety of my post was completely ignored at the expense of one line that I could have wrote a little more tactfully but still wouldn't have been any less true.

I was genuinely interested in Joet's problem and tried to offer constructive advice. I thought that since MMM seems to be a pretty cool and open-minded guy, that the participants on his forum might be the same. Pity to see that I was wrong.
I'm not quite sure how you get from MMM being a cool and open-minded guy, to a couple of forum participants calling you out on your, in my opinion, bullshit statement, to concluding that either: (i) all forum participants; and/or (ii) I (since I was the one who initially objected to your statement), are/am neither cool nor open-minded. I am open-minded, just like you are likely not a total douche. I just have a low threshold for bullshit. I thought your statement was a jerk thing to say and I called you on it. That's it.

I agree with eil, you are not being open-minded. The constant name-calling doesn't help any. An open-minded individual would acknowledge that a partnership can manage their finances any way they want to, including giving the wage-earner veto power on finances. That may not be how your partnership chooses to do things, but that does not give you the right to dictate how everyone else should do things.

Eil and his wife have a solution to this problem that works for them. He attempted to share it with the OP since he thought it was relevant. Disagreeing that it's an optimal solution is one thing, and that can be handled tactfully. Launching a personal attack on the character of the poster is quite another, as well as completely discounting his solution as "bullshit". I think that if anyone has been acting like a jerk here, it's you.

You're entitled to your opinion. So am I.