Author Topic: I can't even [Costs of Raising Children]  (Read 12161 times)

marypublic

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I can't even [Costs of Raising Children]
« on: January 29, 2016, 07:26:33 PM »
https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/439xuh/true_cost_of_raising_a_child_245340_national/

It's not that the estimate seems...high...  Though they do.  It's the comments, holy cow the comments!  And this is on a "personal finance" forum!  These are people who are theoretically paying attention to this kind of thing.

I apparently have been entirely brainwashed by you all because I think the amount of money you spend has nothing to do with the quality of a child's experience growing up.  Woe is me! <-sarcasm


[Mod Edit: Edited title to add clarity.]
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 12:50:51 AM by arebelspy »

mm1970

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2016, 07:31:49 PM »
Hmm...so far just browsing the comments, I'm just on the "child care" part of the thread.  Which,  yeah.

Child care for my current toddler is $320 a week.  For the first two years it was $250 a week.  So right now, it's almost $17k per year.  And that's actually really really cheap.

Five years of child care at average of $15k per year is $75k.  That doesn't count after school care and summer camp.   (Which are basically child care).

Easily half of the cost is related to having 2 full time workers.

LPeters

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2016, 09:19:46 PM »
I JUST CAME OVER HERE TO POST THIS RIDICULOUSNESS

(god, r/personalfinance what happened??? who hurt you???)

damn, ya beat me to it.

Zombie Burger

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2016, 01:20:28 PM »
I'd love to see a reasonable breakdown for these cost-to-raise-a-child numbers, because they seem totally crazy to me.

Our daughter is almost 2 years old and she has her own category in YNAB. We track pretty much everything; from car seats to bedding, diapers, baby food, equipment, clothes, toys, gifts and daycare. The only thing not in that category is the original hospital delivery expenses; but that would probably vary based on your health provider.

The grand total as of today is $6185.70 to raise a two-year-old. I see no reason at all why that would increase over the next several years. At that rate, she should cost just over 50 grand by the age of 18.

mm1970

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2016, 02:37:08 PM »
I'd love to see a reasonable breakdown for these cost-to-raise-a-child numbers, because they seem totally crazy to me.

Our daughter is almost 2 years old and she has her own category in YNAB. We track pretty much everything; from car seats to bedding, diapers, baby food, equipment, clothes, toys, gifts and daycare. The only thing not in that category is the original hospital delivery expenses; but that would probably vary based on your health provider.

The grand total as of today is $6185.70 to raise a two-year-old. I see no reason at all why that would increase over the next several years. At that rate, she should cost just over 50 grand by the age of 18.
That's some pretty cheap daycare.

Zombie Burger

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2016, 03:04:04 PM »
That's some pretty cheap daycare.

While I've definitely heard that daycare is more expensive in some other places, it's still probably the biggest expense, and we plan to utilize it more in 2016. Fortunately, we live in a LCOL area and pay $22 per day for a part-time spot, but I believe it's even less per day if you commit to full time.  We also live close to family, so there's one day where our toddler can spend time with the grandparents instead of daycare.

Prairie Stash

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2016, 03:21:02 PM »
I'd love to see a reasonable breakdown for these cost-to-raise-a-child numbers, because they seem totally crazy to me.

Our daughter is almost 2 years old and she has her own category in YNAB. We track pretty much everything; from car seats to bedding, diapers, baby food, equipment, clothes, toys, gifts and daycare. The only thing not in that category is the original hospital delivery expenses; but that would probably vary based on your health provider.

The grand total as of today is $6185.70 to raise a two-year-old. I see no reason at all why that would increase over the next several years. At that rate, she should cost just over 50 grand by the age of 18.
Why would you leave out delivery costs? It's an expense directly attributable to the child.

I could spend $40k on daycare before the child enters school, however we'll earn $200K. Having the lowest expenses doesn't make things better, sometimes spending money is the right choice. Its a personal decision though, I'm just illustrating that you missed out on $150,000 so that you could have expenses under $50K. For us it was a choice, our families future vs. our families immediate needs.

I also noticed you neglected housing costs, the USDA assumed you provided shelter. They also assumed you used a car to get the mother to the hospital, the child to the doctor etc. which in turns means transportation costs. I highly recommend reading the original document before dismissing it. 

"Housing expenses consist of shelter (mortgage payments, property taxes, or rent; maintenance and repairs; and insurance), utilities (gas, electricity, fuel, cell/telephone, and water), and house furnishings and equipment (furniture, floor coverings, major appliances, and small appliances). Mortgage payments included principal and interest payments. Overall, principal payments constituted 15 percent of overall housing expenses" - USDA

Zombie Burger

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2016, 04:24:41 PM »
It's harder to calculate the delivery costs; if I had to guess it was probably around 4 or 5K - but it's pretty much whatever the out-of-pocket max is for the insurance, which we sometimes hit anyway. Depending on your insurance policy, and how much you use it, it might not cost much at all to add a delivery onto it.

I agree with some of the posters on the Reddit thread regarding housing costs. I don't think it is very useful for us to incorporate housing into the total cost of raising a child. It's not like our taxes or insurance went up suddenly. If anything, it's made us seriously consider moving closer to child-friendly amenities (schools, libraries, etc. ) which would almost certainly be cheaper and more efficient than where we live now.

mm1970

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2016, 06:47:08 PM »
That's some pretty cheap daycare.

While I've definitely heard that daycare is more expensive in some other places, it's still probably the biggest expense, and we plan to utilize it more in 2016. Fortunately, we live in a LCOL area and pay $22 per day for a part-time spot, but I believe it's even less per day if you commit to full time.  We also live close to family, so there's one day where our toddler can spend time with the grandparents instead of daycare.
That's pretty sweet.  My daycare is $64 a day.  And it's pretty close to the cheapest you can find (luckily a good friend of mine!), unless you are willing to go unlicensed and not English-speaking.

Preschool is coming soon...it's cheaper!

sleepyguy

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2016, 07:33:46 PM »
Even with Child care is quite expensive here in Toronto (about $200-300/wk) it's still pretty affordable.  A lot of people just can't cut back spending in other areas and MUST have that $10k family vacation each yr (pointing at my sisters).

One tip for Canadians... if you want to start a BIG family... and are bilingual (French)... go move to Quebec.  LOL... daycare is mandatory $5/day... haha.

Zombie Burger

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2016, 07:42:05 PM »
Even with Child care is quite expensive here in Toronto (about $200-300/wk) it's still pretty affordable.  A lot of people just can't cut back spending in other areas and MUST have that $10k family vacation each yr (pointing at my sisters).

One tip for Canadians... if you want to start a BIG family... and are bilingual (French)... go move to Quebec.  LOL... daycare is mandatory $5/day... haha.

 Wow; five dollars per day? I wonder who can even afford to be in business at those rates.

sleepyguy

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2016, 08:22:45 PM »
It's a subsidized Gov't thing for Quebec.  Help Woman in the workforce etc etc.

I think we have it pretty good in Canada as well with 1yr parental leave (between two parents).

Even with Child care is quite expensive here in Toronto (about $200-300/wk) it's still pretty affordable.  A lot of people just can't cut back spending in other areas and MUST have that $10k family vacation each yr (pointing at my sisters).

One tip for Canadians... if you want to start a BIG family... and are bilingual (French)... go move to Quebec.  LOL... daycare is mandatory $5/day... haha.

 Wow; five dollars per day? I wonder who can even afford to be in business at those rates.

nobodyspecial

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2016, 10:37:41 PM »
Wow; five dollars per day? I wonder who can even afford to be in business at those rates.
They put the children to work in the Maple syrup mines

Kat57

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2016, 11:38:04 AM »
I went and read the whole thread.  My husband and I were blessed. I was a housewife, and, we had both of our mothers taking the little one so that we could rest on the weekends.  We never ever had any paid daycare.

The grandmothers frequently came and left pot roast in the slow cooker, or ran a couple loads of laundry. There would be a note when I got home from taking the little one to the library play group that read, "Saw last week you were low on mayo so put a jar in your pantry.  Had these great restaurant coupons so here s a small check. You guys go out this weekend! I am coming to get him around noon Friday because we are all going to a bbq.  Grandma B Grandma L" 

I see that most people don't have doting grandmothers with their own house keys.

Prairie Stash

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2016, 03:52:17 PM »
It's harder to calculate the delivery costs; if I had to guess it was probably around 4 or 5K - but it's pretty much whatever the out-of-pocket max is for the insurance, which we sometimes hit anyway. Depending on your insurance policy, and how much you use it, it might not cost much at all to add a delivery onto it.

I agree with some of the posters on the Reddit thread regarding housing costs. I don't think it is very useful for us to incorporate housing into the total cost of raising a child. It's not like our taxes or insurance went up suddenly. If anything, it's made us seriously consider moving closer to child-friendly amenities (schools, libraries, etc. ) which would almost certainly be cheaper and more efficient than where we live now.
The point is that people with children tend to have larger homes, sharing a bedroom with a teenager doesn't appeal to me so I bought a house with an extra bedroom. A similar house with one less bedroom costs $20K less in my area, that's part of the costs to raise a child according to the study. Feel free to ignore housing costs but then you should recalculate the USDA estimates on raising a child by removing that portion from it (if you disagree with it, its on you to fix their tallies).

If you move for the child, which is common, then you may see a change in transportation costs.  Although your post about efficiency says you already drive to the library for the child, did you account those costs into the total costs? The USDA also incorporates the increased cost of transportation from having children. Again, feel free to remove the USDA transportation costs.

I assume if you move for the child there will be costs associated with moving; house closing, moving vehicles, utility hookups etc. Would you say that's a cost because of the child? If its cheaper/more efficient then why haven't you already moved? Or is it cheaper because it will defray child rearing costs that didn't exist before?


mm1970

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2016, 04:13:13 PM »
I went and read the whole thread.  My husband and I were blessed. I was a housewife, and, we had both of our mothers taking the little one so that we could rest on the weekends.  We never ever had any paid daycare.

The grandmothers frequently came and left pot roast in the slow cooker, or ran a couple loads of laundry. There would be a note when I got home from taking the little one to the library play group that read, "Saw last week you were low on mayo so put a jar in your pantry.  Had these great restaurant coupons so here s a small check. You guys go out this weekend! I am coming to get him around noon Friday because we are all going to a bbq.  Grandma B Grandma L" 

I see that most people don't have doting grandmothers with their own house keys.
Nope.

My mom provided some child care (a couple of days a week) for my nephew (who is now 23), and my niece (who is now 12).
My mother in law provided some child care for my SIL's kids, 2-3 days per week, for a couple of years.

We live on the opposite coast, and no matter, my mother died when I was pregnant with my 2nd (my father was long gone by then). 

However my MIL is coming to visit SOON!!  For a week.  We basically buy her a plane ticket every year or two.

Cassie

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2016, 04:37:33 PM »
It is way easier to keep costs down when kids are little but as they grow their expenses go up.

jac941

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2016, 06:25:47 PM »
It is way easier to keep costs down when kids are little but as they grow their expenses go up.

People keep telling me this, but I just can't believe it's true. My daycare costs for 2 kids under 5 are over $40,000/yr. and that's not even bad for full time year round care where I live.

GrowingTheGreen

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2016, 06:31:45 PM »
Stuff like this makes me thankful I've got parents that live nearby.

okits

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2016, 12:19:13 AM »
I went and read the whole thread.  My husband and I were blessed. I was a housewife, and, we had both of our mothers taking the little one so that we could rest on the weekends.  We never ever had any paid daycare.

The grandmothers frequently came and left pot roast in the slow cooker, or ran a couple loads of laundry. There would be a note when I got home from taking the little one to the library play group that read, "Saw last week you were low on mayo so put a jar in your pantry.  Had these great restaurant coupons so here s a small check. You guys go out this weekend! I am coming to get him around noon Friday because we are all going to a bbq.  Grandma B Grandma L" 

I see that most people don't have doting grandmothers with their own house keys.

Worlds apart.  :) All our family is out-of-town, with one set of parents needing elder care and caregiver support.  Time, energy, and money flows out from us, no help comes in.  We have chosen to have children anyway, still be there for our infirm parents, and just pay to outsource things to help us cope.  It is undeniably expensive.  We are hoping it gets easier once infancy and toddlerhood are done.

golden1

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2016, 06:57:26 AM »
You know, I didn't even really focus on being frugal at that point in my life when my kids were small, but I can tell you there is NO WAY I will have spent $500K on raising my two kids, not even close. 

Zombie Burger

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2016, 07:02:03 AM »
While I don't think the USDA data is wrong in the study, I think it's important to point out that it only reflects how much people choose to spend on their children. The nerdwallet summary of the data described it at "The True Cost of Raising a Chilld". A major subject of discussion on this forum is how important things don't usually need to cost as much as the normal person spends on them. I think that's what drives me a little bit crazy when I see articles like this, because it portrays excessive's expenditures as a necessity.

Prairie Stash

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2016, 10:43:09 AM »
It is way easier to keep costs down when kids are little but as they grow their expenses go up.

People keep telling me this, but I just can't believe it's true. My daycare costs for 2 kids under 5 are over $40,000/yr. and that's not even bad for full time year round care where I live.
USDA says you're both right, it depends if you pay for daycare or not. Roughly 18% of the total cost to raise a child are typically child care/education. Once you're done with daycare you'll see a drop but you'll likely spend more on a 15 year old than a 6 year old, ever see teenagers eat?

"As a proportion of total child-rearing expenses, housing accounted for the largest share across income groups, comprising 30 to 33 percent of total expenses on a child in a two-child, husband-wife family. For families in the middle-income group, child care/education (for those with the expense) and food were the next largest average expenditures on a child,
accounting for 18 and 16 percent of child-rearing expenses, respectively." USDA

"Annual expenditures on children generally increased with age of the child. This fact was the same for both husband-wife and single-parent families." USDA

Chris22

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2016, 10:52:30 AM »

I agree with some of the posters on the Reddit thread regarding housing costs. I don't think it is very useful for us to incorporate housing into the total cost of raising a child. It's not like our taxes or insurance went up suddenly. If anything, it's made us seriously consider moving closer to child-friendly amenities (schools, libraries, etc. ) which would almost certainly be cheaper and more efficient than where we live now.
The point is that people with children tend to have larger homes, sharing a bedroom with a teenager doesn't appeal to me so I bought a house with an extra bedroom. A similar house with one less bedroom costs $20K less in my area, that's part of the costs to raise a child according to the study. Feel free to ignore housing costs but then you should recalculate the USDA estimates on raising a child by removing that portion from it (if you disagree with it, its on you to fix their tallies).

I also agree that including a housing allocation is somewhat silly in the calc for cost of kids.  Sure, you may live in a larger home (or you may not) than otherwise, but on the other hand, houses with space for more than 1-2 people tend to be those that appreciate more, so you get a lot of it back.  Single family homes generally appreciate more than condos/townhomes (except maybe in downtown urban centers), and go check out how hard it is to sell a 2br home and see how that works out.  In general, the more "family friendly" a house is the easier a time you'll have selling it. 

Prairie Stash

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2016, 11:03:11 AM »
While I don't think the USDA data is wrong in the study, I think it's important to point out that it only reflects how much people choose to spend on their children. The nerdwallet summary of the data described it at "The True Cost of Raising a Chilld". A major subject of discussion on this forum is how important things don't usually need to cost as much as the normal person spends on them. I think that's what drives me a little bit crazy when I see articles like this, because it portrays excessive's expenditures as a necessity.
The original data says it’s an average, it even breaks out categories like annual income of parents. No surprise to most that wealthier people spend more. You could try comparing yourself to low income earners, classified as below $61,530 pre-tax earnings. Also second and third children are a lot less to raise, the numbers quoted are for the first child typically, had me down clothing for example.

I'd love to see a reasonable breakdown for these cost-to-raise-a-child numbers, because they seem totally crazy to me.

Our daughter is almost 2 years old and she has her own category in YNAB. We track pretty much everything; from car seats to bedding, diapers, baby food, equipment, clothes, toys, gifts and daycare. The only thing not in that category is the original hospital delivery expenses; but that would probably vary based on your health provider.

The grand total as of today is $6185.70 to raise a two-year-old. I see no reason at all why that would increase over the next several years. At that rate, she should cost just over 50 grand by the age of 18.
For your case, since you don't include housing, transportation, healthcare or daycare (you’re obviously not full time daycare at $6K total) the USDA estimates say to expect total expenses of $65K. You roughed out $50K; you're not that far from average. However its unreasonable to think your teenager will eat as little as a 2 year old, pretty much everyone sees increased food costs as kids age, same with clothing. The USDA uses that as an assumption too; you could remove that assumption if you wish. 

Chris22

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2016, 11:11:46 AM »
When my daughter hits 5, we'll have spent ~$1200/mo x 60 months = $72,000 - (5 x 5000 x 28.8) [dependant care account tax savings] - (5 x 2500 x 28.8) [childcare write off on taxes].  So about $60k on just daycare. Honestly, most of the rest (food, diapers, clothes, etc) is more or less covered by her $4500 standard deduction.

Mac_MacGyver

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2016, 02:41:32 PM »
Some of the cost included in these idiotic calculations of how much a kid costs to raise includes housing, bills such as water and electricity etc. Kids are really not that expensive and they offset the cost by getting stuff that is across the room and remind you to cherish silence.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2016, 08:27:42 PM »
Do the calculations include the $4000 exemption and $1k refundable child tax credit?

Dezrah

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2016, 11:50:09 AM »
At some point in the evolution of my financial literacy I came to the conclusion that having children in the future meant you you had you had to save for retirement and live modestly even more urgently before you you have them.

If I woke up tomorrow with a baby that was going to cost me $x,000 per year, can I do it? Yes, because I saved aggressively enough for my own future that pressing pause for several years still gives me a cozy retirement. If it turns out it's way cheaper, great, then I can continue to strive for early retirement.

If I didn't save early, I have far fewer choices for both me and my child going forward. Personally, I like future flexibility more than present indulgence.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2016, 11:55:13 AM »
Why do white girls always travel in odd numbers?

Because they can't even.........

faithless

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2016, 09:48:13 AM »
Why do white girls always travel in odd numbers?

Because they can't even.........

Haha, that reminds me of this quote I saw somewhere:

Quote
Teenage girls saying “I can’t even” is basically the same as old ladies saying “Well I never”.

Guses

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2016, 02:25:20 PM »
It's a subsidized Gov't thing for Quebec.  Help Woman in the workforce etc etc.

I think we have it pretty good in Canada as well with 1yr parental leave (between two parents).

Even with Child care is quite expensive here in Toronto (about $200-300/wk) it's still pretty affordable.  A lot of people just can't cut back spending in other areas and MUST have that $10k family vacation each yr (pointing at my sisters).

One tip for Canadians... if you want to start a BIG family... and are bilingual (French)... go move to Quebec.  LOL... daycare is mandatory $5/day... haha.

 Wow; five dollars per day? I wonder who can even afford to be in business at those rates.

Bolded is not factual at all.
 
First of all, it is 7.55$ per day, not 5$. Second, good luck getting a spot in a subsidized daycare, there are only a certain number of spots. Thirdly, you need to pay an extra amount (up to a total of 20.70$ per day) at the end of the year depending on your family income (anything over 52,000$ family income). And finally, you cannot deduce the amount that you pay for daycare on your taxes as it is subsidized already.

We lucked into a subsidized daycare spot a while ago as our private daycare was accredited and received funding but we ended up paying the same as we pay now (35$ per day) due to all of the above.

Yes, it is a good deal for low income families, but it is certainly not the magic bullet that you make it to be.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 02:27:39 PM by Guses »

TravelJunkyQC

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2016, 07:37:30 AM »
It's a subsidized Gov't thing for Quebec.  Help Woman in the workforce etc etc.

I think we have it pretty good in Canada as well with 1yr parental leave (between two parents).

Even with Child care is quite expensive here in Toronto (about $200-300/wk) it's still pretty affordable.  A lot of people just can't cut back spending in other areas and MUST have that $10k family vacation each yr (pointing at my sisters).

One tip for Canadians... if you want to start a BIG family... and are bilingual (French)... go move to Quebec.  LOL... daycare is mandatory $5/day... haha.

 Wow; five dollars per day? I wonder who can even afford to be in business at those rates.

Bolded is not factual at all.
 
First of all, it is 7.55$ per day, not 5$. Second, good luck getting a spot in a subsidized daycare, there are only a certain number of spots. Thirdly, you need to pay an extra amount (up to a total of 20.70$ per day) at the end of the year depending on your family income (anything over 52,000$ family income). And finally, you cannot deduce the amount that you pay for daycare on your taxes as it is subsidized already.

We lucked into a subsidized daycare spot a while ago as our private daycare was accredited and received funding but we ended up paying the same as we pay now (35$ per day) due to all of the above.

Yes, it is a good deal for low income families, but it is certainly not the magic bullet that you make it to be.

Indeed, I believe it can cost up to 40$ a day all in if you're at a high income and miss out on the rare subsidized daycares (likely). After two or three kids - it's as expensive as anywhere else.

hunniebun

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2016, 07:51:18 AM »
It's a subsidized Gov't thing for Quebec.  Help Woman in the workforce etc etc.

I think we have it pretty good in Canada as well with 1yr parental leave (between two parents).

Even with Child care is quite expensive here in Toronto (about $200-300/wk) it's still pretty affordable.  A lot of people just can't cut back spending in other areas and MUST have that $10k family vacation each yr (pointing at my sisters).

One tip for Canadians... if you want to start a BIG family... and are bilingual (French)... go move to Quebec.  LOL... daycare is mandatory $5/day... haha.

 Wow; five dollars per day? I wonder who can even afford to be in business at those rates.

Bolded is not factual at all.
 
First of all, it is 7.55$ per day, not 5$. Second, good luck getting a spot in a subsidized daycare, there are only a certain number of spots. Thirdly, you need to pay an extra amount (up to a total of 20.70$ per day) at the end of the year depending on your family income (anything over 52,000$ family income). And finally, you cannot deduce the amount that you pay for daycare on your taxes as it is subsidized already.

We lucked into a subsidized daycare spot a while ago as our private daycare was accredited and received funding but we ended up paying the same as we pay now (35$ per day) due to all of the above.

Yes, it is a good deal for low income families, but it is certainly not the magic bullet that you make it to be.

Indeed, I believe it can cost up to 40$ a day all in if you're at a high income and miss out on the rare subsidized daycares (likely). After two or three kids - it's as expensive as anywhere else.

This is so interesting. I think the 5$ per day myth is understood as fact for most other provinces...clearly we don't know the in's and outs of it.  I honestly thought it was just a flat 5$ rate for everyone.  Who knew?  and here I was being envious, but it turns out that I live in the province with the lest expensive childcare in the country (unless, you have a Quebec subsidized spot)...and it still feels expensive! 

I didn't read the original post, but I wonder if lost income is factored in?  I was the successful candidate for a job that would have been a 20 K annual increase when I was pregnant with my first child 8 years ago.  They sent emailed me a draft letter of offer to review and then 2 days later someone called me and said, oops, sorry, we didn't know you were pregnant. We need someone who is available so have decided to go with someone else.   So being pregnant cost me 160 K so far (a fair trade in my opinion).  But this is still the reality for career women who want to raise a family as well. 

Daleth

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2016, 07:58:46 AM »
Even with Child care is quite expensive here in Toronto (about $200-300/wk) it's still pretty affordable.  A lot of people just can't cut back spending in other areas and MUST have that $10k family vacation each yr (pointing at my sisters).

One tip for Canadians... if you want to start a BIG family... and are bilingual (French)... go move to Quebec.  LOL... daycare is mandatory $5/day... haha.

 Wow; five dollars per day? I wonder who can even afford to be in business at those rates.

I'm sure it's subsidized.

Daleth

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2016, 08:00:42 AM »
It is way easier to keep costs down when kids are little but as they grow their expenses go up.

People keep telling me this, but I just can't believe it's true. My daycare costs for 2 kids under 5 are over $40,000/yr. and that's not even bad for full time year round care where I live.

I hear you. Ours are on the order of $35k, also for two (toddler twins). Likewise, not bad for where we live. And when they were infants it was drastically cheaper to have a nanny/helper in our home than to use daycare, since daycare costs are much higher for infants than for toddlers.

Daleth

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2016, 08:02:22 AM »
I wonder if lost income is factored in?  I was the successful candidate for a job that would have been a 20 K annual increase when I was pregnant with my first child 8 years ago.  They sent emailed me a draft letter of offer to review and then 2 days later someone called me and said, oops, sorry, we didn't know you were pregnant. We need someone who is available so have decided to go with someone else.   So being pregnant cost me 160 K so far (a fair trade in my opinion).  But this is still the reality for career women who want to raise a family as well.

Omg! Is that legal in Canada?!? It wouldn't be in the US.

Guses

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2016, 08:31:45 AM »

This is so interesting. I think the 5$ per day myth is understood as fact for most other provinces...clearly we don't know the in's and outs of it.  I honestly thought it was just a flat 5$ rate for everyone.  Who knew?  and here I was being envious, but it turns out that I live in the province with the lest expensive childcare in the country (unless, you have a Quebec subsidized spot)...and it still feels expensive! 


I think it may have started at 5$ a day way back when the program was first introduced. But the number of spots as always been (very) limited and was a good matter for debate at each election.

At the end of the year, when you look at the amount of taxes you pay, you quickly realize that there is no such thing as a free lunch. :)

I am not bitter though, I think it is a program with good intentions but I don't know about the implementation.

I kinda feel the same way about the new child tax credit introduced by the federal government in the 2016 budget. If we FIRE before our two kids are 6, we could receive 12,000$ per year TAX FREE in addition to collecting 30,000$ in income/portfolio gains. How crazy is that!?


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Re: I can't even
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2016, 09:17:36 AM »
I wonder if lost income is factored in?  I was the successful candidate for a job that would have been a 20 K annual increase when I was pregnant with my first child 8 years ago.  They sent emailed me a draft letter of offer to review and then 2 days later someone called me and said, oops, sorry, we didn't know you were pregnant. We need someone who is available so have decided to go with someone else.   So being pregnant cost me 160 K so far (a fair trade in my opinion).  But this is still the reality for career women who want to raise a family as well.

Omg! Is that legal in Canada?!? It wouldn't be in the US.

It's legal to do it, it's just not legal to say so.

Roybert

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2016, 09:26:07 AM »
I JUST CAME OVER HERE TO POST THIS RIDICULOUSNESS

(god, r/personalfinance what happened??? who hurt you???)

damn, ya beat me to it.

It became a default subreddit :P

Apples

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2016, 09:28:16 AM »
I wonder if lost income is factored in?  I was the successful candidate for a job that would have been a 20 K annual increase when I was pregnant with my first child 8 years ago.  They sent emailed me a draft letter of offer to review and then 2 days later someone called me and said, oops, sorry, we didn't know you were pregnant. We need someone who is available so have decided to go with someone else.   So being pregnant cost me 160 K so far (a fair trade in my opinion).  But this is still the reality for career women who want to raise a family as well.

Omg! Is that legal in Canada?!? It wouldn't be in the US.

It's legal to do it, it's just not legal to say so.

+1.  The company messed up when they actually said "oh you're pregnant?" out loud.  All they had to do was say "we found a better candidate" or other jargon.  It's up to the person missing out on the job to prove that's why the lost the job, in court.  In this case apparently all they  had to do was record the call haha.  But this type of stuff is why women are still nervous about interviewing for new jobs while visibly pregnant.  It's also why some take their wedding rings off for interviews.  You just don't know what kind of person will be interviewing you.

nobodyspecial

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2016, 08:55:10 PM »
You have a lot less rights before you are actually hired.

I worked at one place where a director gave his girl friend a job, they caught it before she started work and basically never let her through the door, so she was never "employed" so no unfair dismissal
 

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2016, 12:47:33 AM »
I laughed at this comment:
Quote
So far, during the first 9 months of our daughters life, the recurring cost of diapers+baby food is less than the cost of cat food and litter for our two cats.
The baby results in over $2000/yr tax benefit, so she's pretty much paying for herself, while the cats just meow and purr all day.

Awesome.

All the replies were basically "wait until she gets older...daycare."

My solution?  We FIRE'd! Now we have free daycare, because we DIY.  :D

Mathing it, it looks like about half the child expenses come from housing (30%) and child care/education (18%). I don't expect to spend any extra on those things, so cutting their 245k estimate in half, and dividing it over 18 years yields 6.8k/yr.  I think that's reasonable, and expect to actually come in a bit less than that.

5k/yr/kid seems likely.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 12:49:51 AM by arebelspy »
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Cassie

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Re: I can't even [Costs of Raising Children]
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2016, 01:07:04 PM »
Without day care costs kids are cheap when they are little unless you have lots of medical bills, etc. But as they age there are activities, even public schools have many things you need to pay for, fancier clothes, haircuts, gadgets, etc. My kids are long adults and we did not go crazy with this stuff but by age 12 I quit cutting their hair myself-let them go to a salon, etc. Proms, camp, sports, etc. I think you need to hit the sweet spot between not royally spoiling your kids but not letting them be deprived of some of the things other kids have.

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Re: I can't even [Costs of Raising Children]
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2016, 01:15:05 PM »
Without day care costs kids are cheap when they are little unless you have lots of medical bills, etc. But as they age there are activities, even public schools have many things you need to pay for, fancier clothes, haircuts, gadgets, etc. My kids are long adults and we did not go crazy with this stuff but by age 12 I quit cutting their hair myself-let them go to a salon, etc. Proms, camp, sports, etc. I think you need to hit the sweet spot between not royally spoiling your kids but not letting them be deprived of some of the things other kids have.


On the flipside, once you're used to spending $1000-1500/mo for daycare, and they go to elementary school, all that other stuff seems cheap. 

TrMama

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2016, 01:29:05 PM »
It's a subsidized Gov't thing for Quebec.  Help Woman in the workforce etc etc.

I think we have it pretty good in Canada as well with 1yr parental leave (between two parents).

Even with Child care is quite expensive here in Toronto (about $200-300/wk) it's still pretty affordable.  A lot of people just can't cut back spending in other areas and MUST have that $10k family vacation each yr (pointing at my sisters).

One tip for Canadians... if you want to start a BIG family... and are bilingual (French)... go move to Quebec.  LOL... daycare is mandatory $5/day... haha.

 Wow; five dollars per day? I wonder who can even afford to be in business at those rates.

Bolded is not factual at all.
 
First of all, it is 7.55$ per day, not 5$. Second, good luck getting a spot in a subsidized daycare, there are only a certain number of spots. Thirdly, you need to pay an extra amount (up to a total of 20.70$ per day) at the end of the year depending on your family income (anything over 52,000$ family income). And finally, you cannot deduce the amount that you pay for daycare on your taxes as it is subsidized already.

We lucked into a subsidized daycare spot a while ago as our private daycare was accredited and received funding but we ended up paying the same as we pay now (35$ per day) due to all of the above.

Yes, it is a good deal for low income families, but it is certainly not the magic bullet that you make it to be.

Fourthly (fifthly?) The standard of care in many of these centers is abysmal. I stayed home when my kids were small and we lived in Quebec. I saw tons of daycares at the local parks, kids play places, etc. The daycare workers invariably ignored the kids (who ran around in packs, trampling any other small child who got in their way) so they could stand around and chat with each other about any non-work related subject possible. The local moms group I was part of would carefully schedule any outings to avoid daycare groups like the plague. I don't even want to think about how those kids were treated when they were behind closed doors with their caretakers.

I was thrilled to move back to BC and pay through the nose for decent child care.

MrsPete

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Re: I can't even [Costs of Raising Children]
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2016, 07:42:22 PM »
The big deal here is that you're talking about 18 years -- almost two decades -- a long, long period of time.

18 years x 12 months = 216 months.  Probably more because your child probably won't finish high school immediately upon turning 18 years old, and you'll probably help him or her with college and/or transition into the adult world. 

Again, 216 months is a long time.  If you spend $500/month on food, clothing, medical and insurance, and other necessities, you're spending $108,000.  It looks like an awful lot of money when you lump it in together. 

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Re: I can't even [Costs of Raising Children]
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2016, 06:06:33 AM »
My wife is only working 8 hours per week so I guess you could say our son "costs" us $50,000 per year. Other than that he doesn't add much to our expenses. We still live in the same 1,000 sq ft home that we lived in for years before we had him and still drive the same compact cars. Clothes, toys, crib, stroller, high chair, basically anything that isn't single use (except for the car seat) was purchased at the thrift store or found on Craiglist for free.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 06:09:38 AM by JR »

aprilchem

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Re: I can't even
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2016, 06:34:49 AM »
I went and read the whole thread.  My husband and I were blessed. I was a housewife, and, we had both of our mothers taking the little one so that we could rest on the weekends.  We never ever had any paid daycare.

The grandmothers frequently came and left pot roast in the slow cooker, or ran a couple loads of laundry. There would be a note when I got home from taking the little one to the library play group that read, "Saw last week you were low on mayo so put a jar in your pantry.  Had these great restaurant coupons so here s a small check. You guys go out this weekend! I am coming to get him around noon Friday because we are all going to a bbq.  Grandma B Grandma L" 

I see that most people don't have doting grandmothers with their own house keys.

You are certainly blessed.  My kids have two sets of grandparents - the first set are retired multi-millionaires who set aside about 48 hours per year to see their grandkids, then complain the whole entire time that they're too loud/laughing too much/running in the house (essentially not acting like tiny adults).  My mother lives less than an hour away and doesn't work, and we see her about 3 days per year. My children had one great grandmother who was very involved in their lives, but she passed away last year.  I wish we had involved grandparents!

And to speak to childcare, when my 3 were in full-time daycare we paid about $3600 a month in total childcare costs.  I have some amazing benefits at my job (free college tuition for all 3 of our kids being one of them) so it was financially reasonable for me to keep working. 

Kaydedid

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Re: I can't even [Costs of Raising Children]
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2016, 06:38:28 PM »
Our kid may end up costing us this much - but he's got special needs that require lots of medications, supplies, specialist visits etc, plus the opportunity cost of one of us staying home until full-time school age.  So far, he's 13 months and has cost us >10k.  However, thank heavens for insurance, since his total medical bills have been 35x that!

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