Author Topic: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!  (Read 77651 times)

arebelspy

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2016, 01:30:39 AM »
I admit I only skimmed most of the thread but it didn't look like anyone had posted the rebuttal:

http://www.businessinsider.com/stefanie-williams-response-to-yelp-employee-talia-jane-2016-2

That was phenomenal.  Demolished the original piece, ripped the author to shreds, but also just had a good "work hard" message.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with three kids.
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We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

LeRainDrop

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2016, 01:42:51 AM »
I admit I only skimmed most of the thread but it didn't look like anyone had posted the rebuttal:

http://www.businessinsider.com/stefanie-williams-response-to-yelp-employee-talia-jane-2016-2

That was phenomenal.  Demolished the original piece, ripped the author to shreds, but also just had a good "work hard" message.

Boom! 

Quote from: Stefanie Williams (http://www.businessinsider.com/stefanie-williams-response-to-yelp-employee-talia-jane-2016-2)
You expected to get what you thought you deserved rather than expected to work for what you had to earn. And thatís the problem entirely.  Work ethic is not something that develops from entitlement. Quite the opposite, in fact. It develops when you realize there are a million other people who could perform your job and you are lucky to have one. It comes from sucking up the bad aspects and focusing on the good and above all it comes from humility. It comes from modesty. And those are two things, based on your article, that you clearly do not possess.

shelivesthedream

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2016, 01:58:24 AM »
I admit I only skimmed most of the thread but it didn't look like anyone had posted the rebuttal:

http://www.businessinsider.com/stefanie-williams-response-to-yelp-employee-talia-jane-2016-2

Sha-fucking-zam! I really hope the original girl writes a reply to this article...

NonprofitER

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2016, 09:54:18 AM »
I'd kill for free food at work and full benefits! 

I personally liked how she thought suggesting the coconut water savings would make her CEO see her as ready for imminent advancement...


NonprofitER

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2016, 10:00:56 AM »
Also, this is my favorite link ever to rebut these kinds of whiny articles...
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/


jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2016, 10:20:17 AM »
lollll....

"Jane said she made $12.25 an hour, or $8.15 after taxes, and spent 80% of her paycheck on rent in the Bay Area. She described not being able to afford groceries, instead subsisting largely off an economy-sized bag of rice, plus the free food provided by her workplace."


http://qz.com/622232/the-yelp-employee-who-was-fired-after-her-incendiary-open-letter-to-the-ceo-speaks-out/
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 10:24:25 AM by jplee3 »

Cassie

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2016, 10:21:22 AM »
I loved the rebuttal. At age 61 I have had a few shitty jobs but it is what you do when you need $. When I first broke into Social Work with a degree I was only making 50 cents more an hour then my 16 yo who was doing p.t. telemarketing after school. I needed to get experience in the field because where I lived at the time it was competitive and we were not free to move due to my hubby's job.  A close friend was making more $ as a secretary and told me I had wasted my $ going to college. Well 3 grad degrees later I got great jobs I loved but I did put in my dues. It's called life.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2016, 10:35:04 AM »
After college I moved to do a job in D.C.

I made $1,400/mo. (take home)

Lived by myself in an apartment that cost $1100/mo.

Had a car, drove it rarely (to the airport and back, twice).

For 9 months I existed like this.  Then the building got condemned and I had to move.  Just to put in perspective what 1100/mo will get you in DC (actually a suburb of DC, more than an hour by train from work), a building on the verge of condemnation.

I was a little wiser by this point, so I got a new spot to live in a house with 4 other dudes, that was only $450.00 a month.  The remainder of my time there was the richest I've ever felt.  It was closer to the train too!

After a total of 14 months in D.C. I left.

Reading the article posted by the O.P. my heart went out to the chick a little bit.  She's just horribly ignorant and doesn't know what she doesn't know.

But at that stage of your life, having an adventure like that, just own the adventure.

And don't spend so much on some of that crap.  I didn't get any food at work and I still had plenty to eat.  Shit I ate out plenty during that time.  There was a place that had $3.00 large pizzas on Tuesdays.  I'd get two and have a couple slices a day every day.  It wasn't good food, but not like I'm "crying myself to sleep, waking up with stomach pains."

Working full time at minimum wage isn't a pleasant experience.  And if you lack financial skills it is hard.  The difficulty is engaging folks like that in a dialogue where they won't confront that some of their situation is their fault.

"If only we could get paid more..."

Just saddens me really.  I really want to figure out how to teach financial literacy in a way that high school kids would pay attention.


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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2016, 10:44:52 AM »
Also, this is my favorite link ever to rebut these kinds of whiny articles...
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/

That was awesome!

The original article projects such a sense of entitlement that it's difficult to empathize. She's right that she can't afford her situation, but absolutely has the wrong attitude about how to fix it. Some creative problem solving and a willingness to grind and get dirty would serve her well in a future media career, too, if she would apply herself to really fixing her situation. She'd come out ahead either way, having learned to be resourceful in the process.

Writing a public woe-is-me post addressed to the CEO, what else did she expect? I'd have told her to hit the bricks, too.

JAYSLOL

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2016, 10:55:02 AM »
Also, this is my favorite link ever to rebut these kinds of whiny articles...
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/



Wow, that was a punch to the face

jeromedawg

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onehair

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2016, 11:22:43 AM »
Even if her points were valid and I think some of them were that was very unprofessional and stupid of her to post that as if no one from the company including the CEO wouldn't read it and move to terminate her.  That seems to be a thing now people posting silly things about their jobs or soon to be jobs then being surprised they get fired.  I don't get it....


jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2016, 11:30:24 AM »
Even if her points were valid and I think some of them were that was very unprofessional and stupid of her to post that as if no one from the company including the CEO wouldn't read it and move to terminate her.  That seems to be a thing now people posting silly things about their jobs or soon to be jobs then being surprised they get fired.  I don't get it....

Agreed, I mean yea the company could have probably paid her more but she should have understood when signing up that A) this was a "foot in the door" kind of position and likely temporary if she exceeded at it and B) she should have run some numbers and determined if she needed to work a second job.

Unfortunately, lack of B is a reality for a lot of people - they act before they think and get themselves into these kinds of situations. Yes, in an ideal world all corporations would pay employees enough for a "livable" wage but that's just not the reality. If you want to bury your head in the sand on this or complain about it, go ahead, but don't expect things to magically get better for you. Just because you work for a popular company doesn't mean you're going to get paid "fairly" - it's ultimately up to you to do the research (and negotiating) and see if it's worth your time and effort to work there. If she knew that she was going to get paid that "little" and implies that CVS pays more, then why didn't she just go work at CVS? Or why didn't she take a second job at CVS for that matter?

So go ahead and complain about the greedy corporation and how they should change (but likely never will or won't enough to satisfy you)... but at the end of the day, it's still up to you to figure out how much you need to live off of and what's sustainable. Don't play the victim because you "can't do the math"

ABC123

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2016, 11:32:17 AM »
I read the Stefanie Williams response that someone posted earlier, and I really enjoyed it.  I took it as, "I did everything I had to do in order to survive and make my life better, and doing things that others thought were demeaning were worth it."  And yet almost every single comment was about how something she did was not possible for everyone, so therefore those things were worthless.  She lived with her parents, and not everyone can live with their parents.  She got a job through a family connection, and not everyone has family connections.  She could take public transportation, and not everyone has access to that.  It honestly made me think of a lot of the posts here on MMM - someone asks for advice on saving money, people start posting ideas, and other people start saying how some of those ideas won't work in their situation so there is no sense in trying anything.  If only people would use that sort of article to instead analyze their own situations and find things that will work for them.  If this Talia girl couldn't live with her dad for whatever reason, and rent is too high, then you get a roommate or figure out a way to not be paying 85% of your salary in rent. 

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2016, 11:46:37 AM »
I read the Stefanie Williams response that someone posted earlier, and I really enjoyed it.  I took it as, "I did everything I had to do in order to survive and make my life better, and doing things that others thought were demeaning were worth it."  And yet almost every single comment was about how something she did was not possible for everyone, so therefore those things were worthless.  She lived with her parents, and not everyone can live with their parents.  She got a job through a family connection, and not everyone has family connections.  She could take public transportation, and not everyone has access to that.  It honestly made me think of a lot of the posts here on MMM - someone asks for advice on saving money, people start posting ideas, and other people start saying how some of those ideas won't work in their situation so there is no sense in trying anything.  If only people would use that sort of article to instead analyze their own situations and find things that will work for them.  If this Talia girl couldn't live with her dad for whatever reason, and rent is too high, then you get a roommate or figure out a way to not be paying 85% of your salary in rent.

Exactly, all just excuses to justify whatever standard of living you *think* you belong in. "Ohh but I can't live with other people. I've tried it before and it just doesn't work." Get over it!

Plus, the company isn't going to change their tune and give you a raise (especially if you're dumb enough to publicly complain about it), so take a different angle and figure something out to make it work. A lot of people seem to think this isn't a soft skill or something but it just comes down to using your brain, thinking, asking for help from friends, and coming up with solutions.

Her ranting was emotional and irrational... what she posted is something that most people would privately journal or share with their friends or coworkers who aren't in management or HR. But then the response to that would be "I made those emotional and irrational rants publicly because I'm hungry all the time and only have 3 bowls of rice a day"

I'm also thinking her publicly ranting and complaining won't help her much in her future job endeavors and interviews either. Most companies are not going to want to hire someone who is known to complain about pay. I guess it only takes one company to hire you though, so maybe she'll luck out... I mean, look at Erica Baker (the ex-Google employee who complained about pay inequality ala the gender gap - http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015/07/21/former-google-employee-alleges-unequal-pay/30481175/ - she's working for another company now, though she has a ton of great experience which might be a huge differentiating factor)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 11:54:30 AM by jplee3 »

golden1

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2016, 12:45:59 PM »
Quote
My first thought upon reading her essay:  If you genuinely want to die every minute of every day, it's probably not your environment.  It's probably you. 

Maybe it takes one to know one, but this whole rant is from a person who is very obviously suffering from depression.  One thing that many people never realize is how selfish depressed people can be.  You just get consumed by your own self pity and suffering and can't think outside of that.   People who are depressed make really bad decisions and don't have the energy to make the necessary changes.  So they wallow, and it looks like laziness and selfishness to outsiders. 

This girl needs to treat her depression before doing anything else. 

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2016, 12:59:18 PM »
Quote
My first thought upon reading her essay:  If you genuinely want to die every minute of every day, it's probably not your environment.  It's probably you. 

Maybe it takes one to know one, but this whole rant is from a person who is very obviously suffering from depression.  One thing that many people never realize is how selfish depressed people can be.  You just get consumed by your own self pity and suffering and can't think outside of that.   People who are depressed make really bad decisions and don't have the energy to make the necessary changes.  So they wallow, and it looks like laziness and selfishness to outsiders. 

This girl needs to treat her depression before doing anything else.

This would certainly be a game changer then. And hopefully others recognize this, call it out, and offer their help in that case. 

golden1

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2016, 01:12:31 PM »
Quote
Also, this is my favorite link ever to rebut these kinds of whiny articles...
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/

Damn, I love David Wong, but somehow I had missed this gem.  That was great!

dragoncar

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2016, 01:22:35 PM »
I have a friend of a friend that just moved to SF to work for a startup (it's a well known company that I'll leave nameless).

If it's well known, can it still be considered a startup?  Isn't it just a tech company at that point?

I'm not sure there's a real definition, but there are a lot of startups like Uber who are well known, pre-iPo and burning cash.  So even though they are on their way to success they are not yet profitable and need venture capital to keep going. 

Personally I think an iPo, profits (or lack thereof), and growth rate are the deciding factors

Quote
My first thought upon reading her essay:  If you genuinely want to die every minute of every day, it's probably not your environment.  It's probably you. 

Maybe it takes one to know one, but this whole rant is from a person who is very obviously suffering from depression.  One thing that many people never realize is how selfish depressed people can be.  You just get consumed by your own self pity and suffering and can't think outside of that.   People who are depressed make really bad decisions and don't have the energy to make the necessary changes.  So they wallow, and it looks like laziness and selfishness to outsiders. 

This girl needs to treat her depression before doing anything else.

This would certainly be a game changer then. And hopefully others recognize this, call it out, and offer their help in that case. 

Seemed pretty obvious when she said before moving to SF she wanted to kill herself everyday.  Maybe some people wrote it off as melodrama

She has issues, but it is not yelps job to fix that for her.  Imo they gave her a decent opportunity

MgoSam

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2016, 02:58:00 PM »
Quote
Also, this is my favorite link ever to rebut these kinds of whiny articles...
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/

Damn, I love David Wong, but somehow I had missed this gem.  That was great!

I just saw that the other day and loved it!

MgoSam

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2016, 03:02:04 PM »
I have a friend of a friend that just moved to SF to work for a startup (it's a well known company that I'll leave nameless).

If it's well known, can it still be considered a startup?  Isn't it just a tech company at that point?

I'm not sure there's a real definition, but there are a lot of startups like Uber who are well known, pre-iPo and burning cash.  So even though they are on their way to success they are not yet profitable and need venture capital to keep going. 

Personally I think an iPo, profits (or lack thereof), and growth rate are the deciding factors

What he said. I think of a startup to be a company that is

a. Paying people less than market value, but giving them options
or
b. Still trying to effectively monetize what they do.

I could be wrong, but that's just my general impression.

galliver

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2016, 03:13:18 PM »
I read the Stefanie Williams response that someone posted earlier, and I really enjoyed it.  I took it as, "I did everything I had to do in order to survive and make my life better, and doing things that others thought were demeaning were worth it."  And yet almost every single comment was about how something she did was not possible for everyone, so therefore those things were worthless.  She lived with her parents, and not everyone can live with their parents.  She got a job through a family connection, and not everyone has family connections.  She could take public transportation, and not everyone has access to that.  It honestly made me think of a lot of the posts here on MMM - someone asks for advice on saving money, people start posting ideas, and other people start saying how some of those ideas won't work in their situation so there is no sense in trying anything.  If only people would use that sort of article to instead analyze their own situations and find things that will work for them.  If this Talia girl couldn't live with her dad for whatever reason, and rent is too high, then you get a roommate or figure out a way to not be paying 85% of your salary in rent.

I decided to check out the situation on Zillow after reading both articles, and while a room of one's own seems to mostly run $800+ in the bay area, with many in the $1200-1500 range (crazy!), there were postings to share a 2BR with 5 others (~$550/bed) or share a 1BR, live on a couch, etc. Is it the ideal, the dream, as far as "life after college"? No, but it's the reality of life in SF (or NYC). And, heck, even an $800-900 room would have *doubled* her discretionary income and gotten her off the bleeding edge she was on. That one choice just killed her budget, and $1200+ rent isn't inevitable!

MrsPete

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2016, 03:19:19 PM »
I admit I only skimmed most of the thread but it didn't look like anyone had posted the rebuttal:

http://www.businessinsider.com/stefanie-williams-response-to-yelp-employee-talia-jane-2016-2
... I was offered a hostessing shift two days a week that paid fifteen an hour ... Reality had to take over and I accepted that. So I worked in a restaurant ... eating my pride when they detailed (and usually lied about) their ďamazingĒ job ... I had to miss Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and New Years Eve with my family and friends, but I jumped at the opportunity. And all of a sudden, after about a year, I was making enough money to live. And after several years, I was making enough money to live well ... I worked four days a week making anywhere between $50,000 and $60,000 a year  ... All of this was afforded to me not in the first month I was working at a restaurant, but after I put in the hours, made the sacrifices and sucked up my pride ... dealt with the pitying looks of my former classmates or their parents ... Being an English major isnít the problem. Minimum wage isnít the problem (in this case) ... This is about this girlís personal responsibility to be an adult and find a job, or two ... Work ethic is not something that develops from entitlement ...

You go, Girl!

shelivesthedream

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2016, 03:23:18 PM »
Quote
Also, this is my favorite link ever to rebut these kinds of whiny articles...
http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/

Damn, I love David Wong, but somehow I had missed this gem.  That was great!

Is anyone one Twitter willing to tweet this link and the MMM website at her? I don't have an account.

https://twitter.com/itsa_talia

ETA: We could also tweet helpful budgeting advice. Like alternative apartments in SF and rice recipes.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 03:36:28 PM by shelivesthedream »

mm1970

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2016, 03:35:09 PM »
After college I moved to do a job in D.C.

I made $1,400/mo. (take home)

Lived by myself in an apartment that cost $1100/mo.

Had a car, drove it rarely (to the airport and back, twice).

For 9 months I existed like this.  Then the building got condemned and I had to move.  Just to put in perspective what 1100/mo will get you in DC (actually a suburb of DC, more than an hour by train from work), a building on the verge of condemnation.

I was a little wiser by this point, so I got a new spot to live in a house with 4 other dudes, that was only $450.00 a month.  The remainder of my time there was the richest I've ever felt.  It was closer to the train too!

After a total of 14 months in D.C. I left.

Reading the article posted by the O.P. my heart went out to the chick a little bit.  She's just horribly ignorant and doesn't know what she doesn't know.

But at that stage of your life, having an adventure like that, just own the adventure.

And don't spend so much on some of that crap.  I didn't get any food at work and I still had plenty to eat.  Shit I ate out plenty during that time.  There was a place that had $3.00 large pizzas on Tuesdays.  I'd get two and have a couple slices a day every day.  It wasn't good food, but not like I'm "crying myself to sleep, waking up with stomach pains."

Working full time at minimum wage isn't a pleasant experience.  And if you lack financial skills it is hard.  The difficulty is engaging folks like that in a dialogue where they won't confront that some of their situation is their fault.

"If only we could get paid more..."

Just saddens me really.  I really want to figure out how to teach financial literacy in a way that high school kids would pay attention.
I also moved to DC after college.  But based on my own rent while living there, probably a long time before you did.

I lived in NoVa, about a mile or so from the metro, and I rented a room in the basement of a house.  The room was never warmer than about 56 degrees. But it was only $308.33.
The typical rent on a studio apartment was more like $700 at the time.  Most of my friends/ coworkers had these types of apartments.  It was rare for me to find others with roommates.  By the time I left DC in the later part of the 1990s, I had my own studio apartment at $850 a month.


jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2016, 03:59:10 PM »
It seems like she's actually getting a ton of publicity out of this. Maybe she'll be OK riding the wave....

https://twitter.com/useless_weirdo/status/702172000660246528


jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2016, 04:00:24 PM »
I have a friend of a friend that just moved to SF to work for a startup (it's a well known company that I'll leave nameless).

If it's well known, can it still be considered a startup?  Isn't it just a tech company at that point?

I'm not sure there's a real definition, but there are a lot of startups like Uber who are well known, pre-iPo and burning cash.  So even though they are on their way to success they are not yet profitable and need venture capital to keep going. 

Personally I think an iPo, profits (or lack thereof), and growth rate are the deciding factors

Quote
My first thought upon reading her essay:  If you genuinely want to die every minute of every day, it's probably not your environment.  It's probably you. 

Maybe it takes one to know one, but this whole rant is from a person who is very obviously suffering from depression.  One thing that many people never realize is how selfish depressed people can be.  You just get consumed by your own self pity and suffering and can't think outside of that.   People who are depressed make really bad decisions and don't have the energy to make the necessary changes.  So they wallow, and it looks like laziness and selfishness to outsiders. 

This girl needs to treat her depression before doing anything else.

This would certainly be a game changer then. And hopefully others recognize this, call it out, and offer their help in that case. 

Seemed pretty obvious when she said before moving to SF she wanted to kill herself everyday.  Maybe some people wrote it off as melodrama

She has issues, but it is not yelps job to fix that for her.  Imo they gave her a decent opportunity

Aren't there a lot of depressed people living in denial about the fact that they are depressed? From the looks of things on her Twitter, she seems to be one of these types....

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2016, 04:07:34 PM »
So she has responded to Stefanie Williams if you've been following her Twitter feed. She also just posted a follow-up piece on Medium regarding updates since the initial open letter she wrote. Here's a gem from that piece:

"Call me entitled, but I donít think you should be barred from growing and exploring and taking risks because your income isnít in proportion with the cost of living in your area."

So I'm thinking about taking a year of vacation even though that's not my company's policy... will keep you guys updated on what happens! BTW: why does everyone here keep talking about "FU Money"!?!?!?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 04:12:43 PM by jplee3 »

GoingConcern

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2016, 08:28:10 PM »
Unmastachian Qualities:
- Moves to a high COL for a minimum wage job
-$1245 Rent.  Does she have roommates?
-T-Mobile Bill.  Sorry but this is a luxury
-Her instagram account shows the typical mass consumptionism contrary what she wrote in her blog. 
-Blaming the CEO who created his own company...sorry but he  has the right to pay himself whatever he is worth. 

At the same time I do feel we millennial have been dealt a shitty hand compared to that of the previous generations.  The previous generation faced lower COL, had higher wages, lower student debt and so forth.  In the past people learned a trade and were able to afford a middle class life that consisted of eating out a few times a week, yearly vacations, a single family home, a car and etc.  Today our generation has to go in debt to "afford" these things.

In short, I feel conflicted on the story.   I think we millenials are screwed compared to the older generation but at the same time I am against blaming others for your own issues.  Personally I am able to afford my own place, went to school debt free, have amassed a decent net wealth by working hard and not falling prey to the mass consumerism that is rampant and so forth.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 06:21:16 AM by GoingConcern »

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2016, 05:01:15 AM »
At the same time I do feel we millennial have been dealt a shitty hand compared to that of the previous generations.  The previous generation faced lower COL, had higher wages, lower student debt and so forth.  In the past people learned a trade and were able to afford a middle class life that consisted of eating out a few times a week, yearly vacations, a single family home, a car and etc.  Today our generation has to go in debt to "afford" these things.

I think you may be comparing the people of an older generation today to where you are today. I'm of a previous generation (gen X) and yes, I can afford all of those things. But I couldn't when I was fresh out of college. I faced the same struggles you do. But after working for 25+ years, I am now at my max earning potential and have saved enough  to where I can afford more. I promise you, I didn't have a gravy train when I was in my twenties. In fact I was in debt and living in a shitty apartment with a crappy car.

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2016, 05:48:32 AM »
At the same time I do feel we millennial have been dealt a shitty hand compared to that of the previous generations.  The previous generation faced lower COL, had higher wages, lower student debt and so forth.  In the past people learned a trade and were able to afford a middle class life that consisted of eating out a few times a week, yearly vacations, a single family home, a car and etc.  Today our generation has to go in debt to "afford" these things.

I think you may be comparing the people of an older generation today to where you are today. I'm of a previous generation (gen X) and yes, I can afford all of those things. But I couldn't when I was fresh out of college. I faced the same struggles you do. But after working for 25+ years, I am now at my max earning potential and have saved enough  to where I can afford more. I promise you, I didn't have a gravy train when I was in my twenties. In fact I was in debt and living in a shitty apartment with a crappy car.

Maybe this happened to you too, but I think the difference is that we are bombarded with constant messages about needing to get a degree to go anywhere in life and how if you're not instantly successful after graduating you're a loser. I don't read much mainstream media but I still get those messages. We never hear anything about it being acceptable to start small and work your way up. I never ever had anyone at school suggest to me that I could be a successful adult without getting a degree. So guess what, I got the degree and now I never need it (work freelance in a creative field). We are constantly exposed to other people's successes and never see their failures. No one ever said to me at university that it was OK to live in a crappy apartment with no heating and no phone to save money. Consumer debt is regarded as trivial or even worse as a status symbol. You feel like everyone expects you to have to be instantly successful so you try to look it. You never ever hear the message that everyone has to start somewhere. The pressure is to seem successful immediately and it never stops and is never contradicted. People want to fit in so they do as their peers seem to do bwith cause no one ever tells them it can be different.

GoingConcern

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2016, 06:36:43 AM »
At the same time I do feel we millennial have been dealt a shitty hand compared to that of the previous generations.  The previous generation faced lower COL, had higher wages, lower student debt and so forth.  In the past people learned a trade and were able to afford a middle class life that consisted of eating out a few times a week, yearly vacations, a single family home, a car and etc.  Today our generation has to go in debt to "afford" these things.

I think you may be comparing the people of an older generation today to where you are today. I'm of a previous generation (gen X) and yes, I can afford all of those things. But I couldn't when I was fresh out of college. I faced the same struggles you do. But after working for 25+ years, I am now at my max earning potential and have saved enough  to where I can afford more. I promise you, I didn't have a gravy train when I was in my twenties. In fact I was in debt and living in a shitty apartment with a crappy car.

Attending a private university including room and board today will cost somewhere around $150-$200k. That is an insane amount compared to the  previous generations that could work in between semesters and pay off the majority of their tuition. There is no amount of part time work that could make a dent into this amount today.

College tuition has increased dramatically from the late 80s to the early 90s and we millennials are coming out of college with massive amount of debt and are facing stagnant wages compared to other generations.  We have been dealt a shitty hand but at the end of the day you can either accept the hand or do something about it.

I chose not to enslave myself to these ridiculous costs and attended a public university and lived at home while commuted 3 hours a day to my school. Looking back  it's the best decision I made because I came out of college with a positive net worth unlike the majority of my peers.

But even the price of public universities has increased dramatically. California public universities were free or extremely cheap in the 60s and 70s for example. Even when accounted for inflation for  California public unis the tuition has tripled from the early 90s. So while the older generation enjoyed subsidized education today schools don't have the proper funding and some of that can be accounted for due to the massive amount of retirement benefits paid to the older generations




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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2016, 06:40:39 AM »
The average college grad has about 27k in student loans. That's less than one year's average starting salary. 

It's really not as bad as people make it out to be, because it's the extreme examples of the hundred thousand plus in debt that are touted. But the average can knock their loans out in a year or two with some disciplined effort.
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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2016, 06:45:11 AM »
The average college grad has about 27k in student loans. That's less than one year's average starting salary. 

It's really not as bad as people make it out to be, because it's the extreme examples of the hundred thousand plus in debt that are touted. But the average can knock their loans out in a year or two with some disciplined effort.
And the median is half of that.

GoingConcern

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2016, 07:07:38 AM »
The average college grad has about 27k in student loans. That's less than one year's average starting salary. 

It's really not as bad as people make it out to be, because it's the extreme examples of the hundred thousand plus in debt that are touted. But the average can knock their loans out in a year or two with some disciplined effort.

Yes but that number is increasing more than the cost of inflation and does not take into account post graduate degrees.




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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2016, 07:18:27 AM »
At the same time I do feel we millennial have been dealt a shitty hand compared to that of the previous generations.  The previous generation faced lower COL, had higher wages, lower student debt and so forth.  In the past people learned a trade and were able to afford a middle class life that consisted of eating out a few times a week, yearly vacations, a single family home, a car and etc.  Today our generation has to go in debt to "afford" these things. 

Today your generation chooses to go into debt to afford things. 

As BlueHouse mentions, a lot of the comparisons being made are not equal.   Recent grads who are 25 years old are comparing what they remember others having who were 30 or 35 years old at the time.   An extra 5 years of professional development can mean a lot to what you afford.   

Comparisons shouldn't be limited to restaurants and yearly vacations, but should be made for all spending.  I had a land line and a dial-up internet connection for around $60 / month (including the cost of just a few long distance calls), whereas someone might can have a mobile phone with data plan and over 100x the speed internet at home, but complain they spend $200 / month.   Look at what $100 / month can buy you today in phone and internet capability; it is far greater that what I got for my inflation equivalent $60.   That is a much higher cost of living that we had back then, but I guess that doesn't enter young people's comparison equations. 

GoingConcern

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2016, 07:51:19 AM »
At the same time I do feel we millennial have been dealt a shitty hand compared to that of the previous generations.  The previous generation faced lower COL, had higher wages, lower student debt and so forth.  In the past people learned a trade and were able to afford a middle class life that consisted of eating out a few times a week, yearly vacations, a single family home, a car and etc.  Today our generation has to go in debt to "afford" these things. 

Today your generation chooses to go into debt to afford things. 

As BlueHouse mentions, a lot of the comparisons being made are not equal.   Recent grads who are 25 years old are comparing what they remember others having who were 30 or 35 years old at the time.   An extra 5 years of professional development can mean a lot to what you afford.   

Comparisons shouldn't be limited to restaurants and yearly vacations, but should be made for all spending.  I had a land line and a dial-up internet connection for around $60 / month (including the cost of just a few long distance calls), whereas someone might can have a mobile phone with data plan and over 100x the speed internet at home, but complain they spend $200 / month.   Look at what $100 / month can buy you today in phone and internet capability; it is far greater that what I got for my inflation equivalent $60.   That is a much higher cost of living that we had back then, but I guess that doesn't enter young people's comparison equations.

Im not here to defend the mass consumptionism of the millennials but let us not act like the stuff I mention is new to this generation. One today cannot attend college without going into debt unless they have a substantial amount of support from home or from the government and/or from the university in the form of scholarships. In the past one could of worked a part time job in the summer and pay a substantial amount of their tuition while today that is not possible unless you attend a cheap public universitiy like I did.

As for the stuff I mentioned i.e. going out for dinner a few times a month, yearly vacations, car, home etc these were the standard for your average middle class family in the United States. Today to afford such luxuries one needs to make much more than the median household income of around $55...in most areas.

In addition, technological improvements will only get cheaper but the COL has increased dramatically for most items.  Take real estate prices around the country where 30 year olds cannot afford to buy a place where they grew up in and still live with their parents.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 07:52:57 AM by GoingConcern »

arebelspy

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2016, 07:55:24 AM »
The average college grad has about 27k in student loans. That's less than one year's average starting salary. 

It's really not as bad as people make it out to be, because it's the extreme examples of the hundred thousand plus in debt that are touted. But the average can knock their loans out in a year or two with some disciplined effort.

Yes but that number is increasing more than the cost of inflation and does not take into account post graduate degrees.

It is increasing.  It is more than it has been.  And post-grad may add more (or it may not--the wife and I both paid for our Master's Degrees in cash).

None of those facts is relevant to what I, and Paul, posted--the average is completely affordable, and the median even more so.  It gets blown out of proportion when we look at the top 0.1% of student debt loads, but the average and median are maybe 3 months to a year's salary.  When you pay the minimums, yes, it takes a decade to pay off.  When you aggressively attack it, the average person can be done with it in a year or two.

The wife and I both had tens of thousands of student loans.  I get it, debt isn't fun.  It's something to address going forward, but it's not a reason to whinge or complain that one can't get ahead.
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GoingConcern

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #89 on: February 24, 2016, 08:04:55 AM »
The average college grad has about 27k in student loans. That's less than one year's average starting salary. 

It's really not as bad as people make it out to be, because it's the extreme examples of the hundred thousand plus in debt that are touted. But the average can knock their loans out in a year or two with some disciplined effort.

Yes but that number is increasing more than the cost of inflation and does not take into account post graduate degrees.

It is increasing.  It is more than it has been.  And post-grad may add more (or it may not--the wife and I both paid for our Master's Degrees in cash).

None of those facts is relevant to what I, and Paul, posted--the average is completely affordable, and the median even more so.  It gets blown out of proportion when we look at the top 0.1% of student debt loads, but the average and median are maybe 3 months to a year's salary.  When you pay the minimums, yes, it takes a decade to pay off.  When you aggressively attack it, the average person can be done with it in a year or two.

The wife and I both had tens of thousands of student loans.  I get it, debt isn't fun.  It's something to address going forward, but it's not a reason to whinge or complain that one can't get ahead.

I'm in a similar position and I paid for my masters in cash and currently paying for my wife's graduate degree in cash as well. My point is our generation on average will have a lower standard of living compared to our parents , and I can empathize with the women in the OP to some degree. It is not impossible to get ahead but it is much more difficult on average than it was years ago.


arebelspy

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #90 on: February 24, 2016, 08:08:30 AM »
My point is our generation on average will have a lower standard of living compared to our parents

I strongly disagree.

There's no way I would go back to the past, and that standard of living.  Our standard today is so much higher than anyone's, ever.
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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #91 on: February 24, 2016, 08:49:52 AM »
Unmastachian Qualities:
- Moves to a high COL for a minimum wage job
-$1245 Rent.  Does she have roommates?
-T-Mobile Bill.  Sorry but this is a luxury
-Her instagram account shows the typical mass consumptionism contrary what she wrote in her blog. 
-Blaming the CEO who created his own company...sorry but he  has the right to pay himself whatever he is worth. 

At the same time I do feel we millennial have been dealt a shitty hand compared to that of the previous generations.  The previous generation faced lower COL, had higher wages, lower student debt and so forth.  In the past people learned a trade and were able to afford a middle class life that consisted of eating out a few times a week, yearly vacations, a single family home, a car and etc.  Today our generation has to go in debt to "afford" these things.

In short, I feel conflicted on the story.   I think we millenials are screwed compared to the older generation but at the same time I am against blaming others for your own issues.  Personally I am able to afford my own place, went to school debt free, have amassed a decent net wealth by working hard and not falling prey to the mass consumerism that is rampant and so forth.

The equivalent, for Generation X, was watching their parents go through the 1980's "me" generation. We didn't get in on all the fancy jobs or nice cars, because many of us graduated into regional depressions or recessions. Back then, the big bubble wasn't education but real estate. Also, X was the generation that got to experience divorce without child support, which is one difficult way to live.

Every generation has been screwed by the one that went before it, in some respect.

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #92 on: February 24, 2016, 08:58:00 AM »
Quote
My point is our generation on average will have a lower standard of living compared to our parents

I strongly disagree as well. My generation has the internet. My father's generation did not. Instantaneous access to 90% of the world's knowledge means that I have a much higher standard of living than my dad did in 1970, even if my house is smaller in sq. feet.

Making Cookies

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #93 on: February 24, 2016, 09:40:13 AM »
...and there are schools and jobs and lives to be lived in places not along the coasts....

Lives in those places a much cheaper in some cases.

I would like to think many of us can make a good life wherever we land. We aren't dependent on shopping excisions at malls and big box retailers for happiness. We aren't dependent on entertainment on a massive scale to have a good time.

Visit HCOL areas for fun but live in LCOL places with easy commutes, cheaper real estate, lower crime, etc.

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #94 on: February 24, 2016, 11:07:05 AM »
At the same time I do feel we millennial have been dealt a shitty hand compared to that of the previous generations.  The previous generation faced lower COL, had higher wages, lower student debt and so forth.  In the past people learned a trade and were able to afford a middle class life that consisted of eating out a few times a week, yearly vacations, a single family home, a car and etc.  Today our generation has to go in debt to "afford" these things.

I think you may be comparing the people of an older generation today to where you are today. I'm of a previous generation (gen X) and yes, I can afford all of those things. But I couldn't when I was fresh out of college. I faced the same struggles you do. But after working for 25+ years, I am now at my max earning potential and have saved enough  to where I can afford more. I promise you, I didn't have a gravy train when I was in my twenties. In fact I was in debt and living in a shitty apartment with a crappy car.

Attending a private university including room and board today will cost somewhere around $150-$200k. That is an insane amount compared to the  previous generations that could work in between semesters and pay off the majority of their tuition. There is no amount of part time work that could make a dent into this amount today.

College tuition has increased dramatically from the late 80s to the early 90s and we millennials are coming out of college with massive amount of debt and are facing stagnant wages compared to other generations.  We have been dealt a shitty hand but at the end of the day you can either accept the hand or do something about it.

I chose not to enslave myself to these ridiculous costs and attended a public university and lived at home while commuted 3 hours a day to my school. Looking back  it's the best decision I made because I came out of college with a positive net worth unlike the majority of my peers.

But even the price of public universities has increased dramatically. California public universities were free or extremely cheap in the 60s and 70s for example. Even when accounted for inflation for  California public unis the tuition has tripled from the early 90s. So while the older generation enjoyed subsidized education today schools don't have the proper funding and some of that can be accounted for due to the massive amount of retirement benefits paid to the older generations
Emphasis mine.

I'm an X-er.  Attending a private university when I went to college in the 80's/90's was about $80k, give or take, for 4 years.

I don't know about you, but I could not pay that off by working summers and during the semester.  I worked most semesters and every summer.  The most I made was $4 an hour.  Mostly I made $3.35 an hour.

One summer I worked 60 hours a week (40 at $4, and 20 at $3.35).  I also worked 15 hours a week during the school year.  That's about $4500 for the year ($2500 for the summer, about $2k for the rest of the year).

Sorry, but $4500 x 4 years is $18k, that ain't even close to $80,000.

I'd say that maybe in the 60's it was do-able, but if millenials are thinking that the X-ers had it so easy.  Um.  Sorry.  I only was able to get that awesome $4 an hour job because I knew someone.

mm1970

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #95 on: February 24, 2016, 11:12:08 AM »
My point is our generation on average will have a lower standard of living compared to our parents

I strongly disagree.

There's no way I would go back to the past, and that standard of living.  Our standard today is so much higher than anyone's, ever.
I can't speak for how old everyone's parents are.  I'm 45.  My parents "standard of living" when I was, say, 10 years old.

One TV.  For awhile, black and white at 13 inch.
No cable.
Two small cars.
No cell phones.
Hand me down clothing.
A garden.
One bathroom.
No college.
No internet.
One vacation, driving, to NC from PA when I was 7.
Two camping weekends (not a year, total) to Lake Erie.

Now granted, we were on the poor side.  But even my middle class friends didn't go on fancy vacations or have fancy houses.  A vacation was a camping trip, or driving to FL once in 10 years.

arebelspy

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #96 on: February 24, 2016, 11:27:11 AM »
Exactly.  The world is so much more amazing and better in every way, even for people who are struggling.  They have some tough scenarios, yes, but they also have so much opportunity, and amazing things at their fingertips.

I'd rather have 20k/yr today than be transported back 40 years to 1976 and have 100k/yr.
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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #97 on: February 24, 2016, 11:48:09 AM »
I think that's exactly why people like Talia Jane feel entitled to stuff like fancy restaurant meals, nice alcohol, and other luxuries that are now seen as "normal". I don't know about other people, but they certainly weren't the norm in my parents day, or even in my childhood. They were stuff that rich people did. But it seems like there's been a standard of living inflation across all classes and income levels. One of my best childhood friends, whose husband works a solid blue-collar job, just went on vacation in Hawaii. When we were kids, nobody we knew had ever been to Hawaii.

So now people who don't do these things feel like they're "poor", when twenty years ago it was the norm.

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #98 on: February 24, 2016, 11:58:37 AM »
The problem I have with this young lady is that she had only worked at Yelp a very short time.  Yes, she has to put in one year before moving on to a different job.  Most companies have this rule.  Suck it up for one year and then start applying for better jobs that pay more money. 

She is not special and she needs to pay her dues.

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #99 on: February 24, 2016, 11:59:36 AM »

I'd rather have 20k/yr today than be transported back 40 years to 1976 and have 100k/yr.

Yeah, but this is largely due to knowing how things are.

If I could be in 1976 with my memories having been altered as if I was born in 1948 (so I'm the same age as I am right now), and no knowledge of today or future events, I would rather have $100k/yr in 1976.