Author Topic: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!  (Read 77595 times)

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #150 on: February 25, 2016, 12:53:10 PM »
The story certainly has legs.  It made the front page of Yahoo today, too.  This is the NY Post story they linked to, which is very critical and written by someone living in NYC, which is another notoriously HCOL area and he has no sympathy for her.  I do feel a little badly for her as it seems that she's a product of her environment and upbringing.  The university she went to and the place she lives are all full of people who are convinced that class warfare is something everybody needs to be fighting for on the front lines.  She just didn't realize that by being white and college educated she is the one who's privileged.

It's a domino effect. I think now we're on the reaction to the reaction to the reaction to the original.

In the many publications supporting and criticizing the young lady, this person's response stands out to me:

https://medium.com/@Izhou/to-talia-how-to-live-in-sf-on-17-597-76-a-year-1c6a39a630f6

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  The way I see it, those who are angry feel you haven’t truly exhausted the options within your own control before looking externally to criticize others (Yelp, Yelp’s CEO Jeremy, etc.)

He then goes on to present reasonable, mustachian advice on a budget to afford to live on her [former] salary, while allocating resources for personal development and growth.


Yeah, that dude is awesome.

MandalayVA

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #151 on: February 25, 2016, 12:58:38 PM »
With all this college-bashing, I'm curious how many of you don't actually have a college degree? And if so, are you a straight, white, able-bodied male without a college degree?

My husband and I work for the same company—he's been there for fifteen years and I've been there for thirteen. We both came in on entry level jobs. I was promoted four times in four years in my original department. I was getting burned out so I switched to a high level sales department for a couple of years, where I made good money but got sick of being on the phone all day long. I then applied for my current department, and while I have the same job title my responsibilities and salary have increased every year.

My husband, meanwhile, stayed in the same department until it was recently axed. He is the type that works hard, but not smart. He routinely put in eleven hour days just to keep up with the paperwork because he has next to no computer skills (I love him dearly but seriously, watching him type something is PAINFUL for me). He claims that he is now "too old" to learn. When his department was axed he went to a different department that is much more tech-oriented. A younger guy took pity on him and is helping him out, but he's floundering big time. His base salary—he gets commission as well—is roughly the same as mine.

One of us has two college degrees. One of us got taken out of college after sophomore year for partying too much.

I am not the one with the degrees.

Gondolin

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #152 on: February 25, 2016, 01:10:26 PM »
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And then, what's up with this?:

"I've had a lot of engineers who earn upwards of $100k call me entitled, which has tickled me"

To me, she seems to be, in a passive-aggressive tone, implying that those engineers "don't deserve" their salaries, etc....
« Last Edit: Today at 12:28:25 PM by jplee3 »

Clear signs of a person who doesn't understand the correlation between value creation and compensation. If she'd probably get it with about 15 minutes on Quora.

stoaX

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #153 on: February 25, 2016, 01:40:00 PM »
My point is our generation on average will have a lower standard of living compared to our parents

I strongly disagree.

There's no way I would go back to the past, and that standard of living.  Our standard today is so much higher than anyone's, ever.
I can't speak for how old everyone's parents are.  I'm 45.  My parents "standard of living" when I was, say, 10 years old.

One TV.  For awhile, black and white at 13 inch.
No cable.
Two small cars.
No cell phones.
Hand me down clothing.
A garden.
One bathroom.
No college.
No internet.
One vacation, driving, to NC from PA when I was 7.
Two camping weekends (not a year, total) to Lake Erie.
Now granted, we were on the poor side.  But even my middle class friends didn't go on fancy vacations or have fancy houses.  A vacation was a camping trip, or driving to FL once in 10 years.

Well said!  That's my recollection from back in the early 70's.  To your list I would add that a meal in a restaurant was a special occasion and air conditioning was not common.

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #154 on: February 25, 2016, 02:26:18 PM »
Quote
And then, what's up with this?:

"I've had a lot of engineers who earn upwards of $100k call me entitled, which has tickled me"

To me, she seems to be, in a passive-aggressive tone, implying that those engineers "don't deserve" their salaries, etc....
« Last Edit: Today at 12:28:25 PM by jplee3 »

Clear signs of a person who doesn't understand the correlation between value creation and compensation. If she'd probably get it with about 15 minutes on Quora.

There's a reason engineers are paid more than customer service representatives, in general. And that has absolutely nothing to do with "entitlement" other than engineers *should* be paid more than customer service reps... she strikes me as the type of person who shoots blindly and speaks before she thinks. And the worst part is that there's this underlying sense of denial she carries around, which seems to often portray itself as her making light of things.

libertarian4321

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #155 on: February 25, 2016, 03:36:00 PM »
Whelp, she's not the brightest bulb, but her open letter sure did make me laugh. Coconut water, lol.

I'm still not sure if this was a bad attempt at a comedy routine, or if this girl is as dumb as a box of rocks.

Sadly, I suspect the latter.

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This was entirely unplanned (but I guess not completely unexpected?) but any help until I find new employment would be extremely appreciated.

LOL.  Shouldn't take long.  I'm guessing employers are just lining up to hire this entitled little snot.

nobodyspecial

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #156 on: February 25, 2016, 03:38:01 PM »
There's a reason engineers are paid more than customer service representatives, in general. And that has absolutely nothing to do with "entitlement"
It has everything to do with entitlement - the people that make the things that make the company money are entitled to more money.

monstermonster

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #157 on: February 25, 2016, 03:46:54 PM »
With all this college-bashing, I'm curious how many of you don't actually have a college degree? And if so, are you a straight, white, able-bodied male without a college degree?

My husband and I work for the same company—he's been there for fifteen years and I've been there for thirteen. We both came in on entry level jobs. I was promoted four times in four years in my original department. I was getting burned out so I switched to a high level sales department for a couple of years, where I made good money but got sick of being on the phone all day long. I then applied for my current department, and while I have the same job title my responsibilities and salary have increased every year.

My husband, meanwhile, stayed in the same department until it was recently axed. He is the type that works hard, but not smart. He routinely put in eleven hour days just to keep up with the paperwork because he has next to no computer skills (I love him dearly but seriously, watching him type something is PAINFUL for me). He claims that he is now "too old" to learn. When his department was axed he went to a different department that is much more tech-oriented. A younger guy took pity on him and is helping him out, but he's floundering big time. His base salary—he gets commission as well—is roughly the same as mine.

One of us has two college degrees. One of us got taken out of college after sophomore year for partying too much.

I am not the one with the degrees.
That was well-written enough that I laughed out loud at work :-)

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #158 on: February 25, 2016, 03:52:08 PM »
There's a reason engineers are paid more than customer service representatives, in general. And that has absolutely nothing to do with "entitlement"
It has everything to do with entitlement - the people that make the things that make the company money are entitled to more money.

That is true now that you put it that way. I guess the difference then is *feeling* or *thinking* that you're entitled vs actually *being* entitled.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #159 on: February 25, 2016, 05:15:09 PM »
OK, so maybe I'm taking this a little more seriously than I should, and maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine, but it really chaps my hide to hear someone play the I'm-a-helpless-young-woman card as a justification for making a dumbass decision. I therefore polished up my scythe and cranked out the following semi-rant, replete with my usual level of violence and coarse language:

Here's her explanation of why she didn't (or "couldn't") find a roommate:
<snip>
"Being brand new to an area with no safety net of close friends or family on top of being a young woman, I didn't feel safe just blindly rooming with someone off Craigslist. So my new plan was to take the cheapest place I could find that would accept my application, befriend someone at work, and have a roommate/move somewhere affordable within three months. But none of my coworkers were going anywhere, so I had to find a new plan."

Translation, with all the begged questions and fallacious reasoning expanded for further mockery:

"I'm female, therefore I'm entitled to a higher standard of living, because it's Too Scary to actually find a reputable roommate. I choose to believe that in an urban area with over one million people, not one law abiding person with a vagina is in the same situation as me, so I'm not going to bother typing and clicking enough to confirm my bias. Therefore, you should choose to believe this too.

"Furthermore, despite the fact that I'm trying to present myself as a tech-savvy person, I'm going to present the fact that I was too fucking lazy to type some words into a search engine as evidence that there's no such thing as a legitimate house-sharing and roommate-finder Web site serving the Bay Area.

"Finally, I'm also going to pretend that the only possible alternative to what I want (an expensive apartment all to myself) is the most dangerous, extreme possibility out there (browsing Craigslist for random people I've never met). Gee, Toto: this straw man is almost convincing enough to put in the passenger seat and drive with in the HOV lane all the way back to Kansas.

"You should believe all of this horseshit logical fallacy because I'M A YOUNG WOMAN! Look at me, all helpless and princess-like and shit! Someone rescue me from my self imposed dungeon tower! What's wrong with you assholes: A PERSON WITH A UTERUS HAS GOTTEN HERSELF INTO AN UNPLEASANT SITUATION AND IS HAVING A VERY BAD DAY!"

It's like a reverse ad hominem attack: not toward but from, not an attack but a defense, and not male but female. I know: I'll call it an "ex feminem defense". As in, "you have to accept whatever logical fallacy is coming out of my mouth as being factual and accurate, because I. Am. Someone. Who. Reads. Far. Too. Much. Chick. Lit. In. Which. A. Mediocre. Female. Achieves. Something. Fantastic. Without. First. Eradicating. Her. Mediocrity."

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"I've had a lot of engineers who earn upwards of $100k call me entitled, which has tickled me"

To me, she seems to be, in a passive-aggressive tone, implying that those engineers "don't deserve" their salaries, etc....

Unless, of course, they already paid their dues instead of trying to whine and helpless-female-card their way into a better position. Either that, or they went out of their way to get skills that were so marketable they didn't have to flip burgers for a year.

On behalf of all the other people with vaginas, and in as aggressive-aggressive a manner as possible, I hereby revoke this person's adult certificate for making the rest of us look like idiots.

monstermonster

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #160 on: February 25, 2016, 05:19:22 PM »
As in, "you have to accept whatever logical fallacy is coming out of my mouth as being factual and accurate, because I. Am. Someone. Who. Reads. Far. Too. Much. Chick. Lit. In. Which. A. Mediocre. Female. Achieves. Something. Fantastic. Without. First. Eradicating. Her. Mediocrity."

On behalf of all the other people with vaginas, and in as aggressive-aggressive a manner as possible, I hereby revoke this person's adult certificate for making the rest of us look like idiots.

I think this is WAY unnecessarily mean-spirited and reductive.

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #161 on: February 25, 2016, 09:08:12 PM »
I think this is WAY unnecessarily mean-spirited and reductive.

What's funny is that I saw one post on here get deleted by a moderator because somebody said they should slap someone (who happened to be a woman) to get some sense into her.  Meanwhile, the actual owner of this website encourages punching people in the face to make them understand things.  Considering how many times "face punch" is used by the actual owner of this website, it shouldn't be surprising that there is a tacit acceptance of faux violence as a means of making people make smarter decisions.

Gondolin

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #162 on: February 25, 2016, 09:49:52 PM »
Ignore the haters Grim Squeaker! You're one of my favorite posters on the forums.

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #163 on: February 25, 2016, 11:23:58 PM »
I think this is WAY unnecessarily mean-spirited and reductive.

What's funny is that I saw one post on here get deleted by a moderator because somebody said they should slap someone (who happened to be a woman) to get some sense into her.  Meanwhile, the actual owner of this website encourages punching people in the face to make them understand things.  Considering how many times "face punch" is used by the actual owner of this website, it shouldn't be surprising that there is a tacit acceptance of faux violence as a means of making people make smarter decisions.



Someone had to speak up and say something.... "any voice is better than silence" :P

shelivesthedream

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #164 on: February 26, 2016, 01:02:38 AM »
As in, "you have to accept whatever logical fallacy is coming out of my mouth as being factual and accurate, because I. Am. Someone. Who. Reads. Far. Too. Much. Chick. Lit. In. Which. A. Mediocre. Female. Achieves. Something. Fantastic. Without. First. Eradicating. Her. Mediocrity."

On behalf of all the other people with vaginas, and in as aggressive-aggressive a manner as possible, I hereby revoke this person's adult certificate for making the rest of us look like idiots.

I think this is WAY unnecessarily mean-spirited and reductive.

Eh, it seems pretty accurate to me. The only bit it leaves out is that she did have a "plan" to move in with a co-worker after three months. However, it seems pretty much like gambling to rely on finding a coworker that she got on with, was at the end of their lease, and wanted to move somewhere else. So... not the best plan ever, although the sentiment is admirable.

arebelspy

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #165 on: February 26, 2016, 03:49:45 AM »
What's funny is that I saw one post on here get deleted by a moderator because somebody said they should slap someone (who happened to be a woman) to get some sense into her.

I highly doubt you did.  The moderators, as a rule almost never delete posts, just edit them using the strikeout feature, leaving the contents intact.

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Meanwhile, the actual owner of this website encourages punching people in the face to make them understand things.  Considering how many times "face punch" is used by the actual owner of this website

Humorous rhetorical "face punches" (which I guarantee you MMM has never actually done) is different than suggesting and talking about actual violence against women (IIRC the context was like "that woman should be slapped around" or something similar--not appropriate, even if it was intended for humor).  That is not amusing.

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it shouldn't be surprising that there is a tacit acceptance of faux violence as a means of making people make smarter decisions.

That's why the moderation was done, to show there isn't a tacit acceptance of violence, and there's a clear line between virtual "face punches" and actual physical harm.  That's how we draw the line, and show what's appropriate.
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hownowbrowncow

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #166 on: February 26, 2016, 03:53:04 AM »

Yelp IS in the wrong for paying people $12/hr gross for a job located in SF proper. And Jeremy Stoppleman IS ultimately responsible for that set-up.   He may not have realized that was the exact per hour amount but he knows now and could fix it.  I saw his solution is move those lower jobs to AZ. Perfect. I'm sure Yelp will pay relocation costs for all the current workers in SF in this lower level role.  Oh they'll likely end up laid-off and scrambling for another $12/hr job? Well that's just their fault for not working hard enough to get promoted/being entitled millenials/not doing what I did at their age X number of years ago.

Yelp's net income for 2014 was something like $35M. They have 3,250 employees. Let's say of that number ...25 are CSR reps in SF.  I know the answer is 'free markets!' but why they couldn't pay reps something like $42k/year (Yes yes you didn't make that much in your first job but not relevant.  I'm talking about the reality of a SF-based company hiring entry level employees right now), calibrate the rest of their employees' salaries to account for that and post a lower net income?  The only reason Yelp can get away with that ridiculous wage because so many other full-time jobs in the Bay Area pay that or less. And instead of questioning the tax breaks these tech companies receive, the high salaries their executives take home, the high amounts of cash they hold in lieu of offering cost of living wages, we're tsk tsking someone for pointing it out?  Because she didn't do it perfectly? Therefore we need to poke holes in everything she says?  Fine she was wrong to take the job, live alone, write the post, etc - doesn't change the fact Yelp pays people $12/hr for a job in SF!

Also people make dumb decisions because...they're people not robots!  That does not automatically mean someone is dumb, ignorant, entitled.  Of course she might be but some people think they have this girl totally pegged without having ever met her. 

She states that a lot of the instagram postings were gifts or prizes or (gasp!) the occasional splurge.  Again I concede not mustachian but some of the commentary just comes across as a coded way of saying "poor people don't deserve anything nice ever because they're poor"

Finally that response from the 29 y/o who "owned" her was some major bullshit. This post summarizes why way more eloquently.

https://medium.com/listen-to-my-story/36-year-old-destroys-29-year-old-millennial-who-ripped-25-year-old-yelp-employee-who-got-fired-aa91972dedff

Signed,
My personal situation/choices now and/or when I was her age are not relevant

arebelspy

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #167 on: February 26, 2016, 04:29:17 AM »
Yelp IS in the wrong for paying people $12/hr gross for a job located in SF proper. And Jeremy Stoppleman IS ultimately responsible for that set-up.   He may not have realized that was the exact per hour amount but he knows now and could fix it.  I saw his solution is move those lower jobs to AZ. Perfect. I'm sure Yelp will pay relocation costs for all the current workers in SF in this lower level role.  Oh they'll likely end up laid-off and scrambling for another $12/hr job? Well that's just their fault for not working hard enough to get promoted/being entitled millenials/not doing what I did at their age X number of years ago.

I disagree Yelp is in the wrong, and I think moving the work to a place where the pay is more commiserate makes sense.

Zappos moved their HQ from SF to Vegas around a decade ago (and yes, I believe they did offer to help pay relocation costs for everyone, on down to the call center employees) for that exact reason (cost of living).

Why should it be Yelp's problem how much it costs to live there?  If it costs too much compared to the wage they're paying, people should not take that wage.  Then Yelp will either have to relocate the jobs or will have to pay more.

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Yelp's net income for 2014 was something like $35M. They have 3,250 employees. Let's say of that number ...25 are CSR reps in SF.  I know the answer is 'free markets!' but why they couldn't pay reps something like $42k/year (Yes yes you didn't make that much in your first job but not relevant.  I'm talking about the reality of a SF-based company hiring entry level employees right now), calibrate the rest of their employees' salaries to account for that and post a lower net income?

Huh?  Why should Yelp take a minimum wage job and pay someone a professional salary to do it?  A job that takes very little skills or training, or education.  What would make you think anyone is owed that wage?

Sure, Yelp could pay that, but... why would they?

I think it's society's job to take care of that stuff.  If minimum wage is too low to be a living wage, that's a failure on society's part.  I personally believe we should have universal basic income--a flat living amount paid to everyone, regardless of working or not.  So I fall on the way more radical side of liberal when it comes to wages and work.

But what I DON'T do is think it's the responsibility of a single company, acting solely out of the goodness of their altruistic corporate hearts to do that.  That seems ludicrous, to me.  And it just causes a tragedy of the commons, because the companies that DO do that will quickly be at a disadvantage to the companies that don't.  We should legislate changes we want to see, not demand them of private companies for no real reason, or logic.

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Finally that response from the 29 y/o who "owned" her was some major bullshit.

Eh, I thought it was a pretty great attitude to have.  This post summarizes why way more eloquently.  Work hard, get ahead.  Whatever that entails.  For that person, it was waitressing for years.  Sacrificing vacations, holidays with families, etc.

Stephanie's post/response wasn't perfect, some of it was a little snarky, but the post you linked to was way ruder (insulting her reading level?  Come on.), with flat out name-calling.

I basically disagree with your whole post.  Frankly, I'm quite surprised someone can hold the opinions you do.  It seems much to victim mentality, and wanting to blame others, to me.  That may be a misinterpretation, and if so, I apologize, but it's how I read it.  It's not an attitude we see a lot around this forum, since most of us are more take-charge (and, admittedly, are more privileged as well).  But I appreciate you sharing. :)
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hownowbrowncow

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #168 on: February 26, 2016, 05:48:47 AM »
I don't disagree with the "people shouldn't take the Yelp job if it's too low" thought but often it's a dammed if you dammed if you don't situation.

1) Take job in front of you, low pay but bird in the hand OR
2) Turn down low paying job, keep looking for a job while digging a deeper hole

Should you put yourself in that situation? No. Does it happen? Yes and when it happens all the "should have done X, Y, Z differently's" don't matter. 

I'm not demanding anything of Yelp nor do i expect them to pay more just for altrustic reasons (although according to glass door they're paying below market). I just think they're in the wrong - l am allowed to have an opinion right? Not sure how that makes me a victim since I'm just a spectator/commentator here.  I'm not blaming anyone for my situation - which would be crazy since its nothing like hers.  I've been responsible for myself my entire adult life and faced very little in terms of true struggles but should note my circumstances growing up could be described as privileged.

I don't see a problem examining their compensation model (and the model of other SF tech companies) compared to their resources.  Do you think it's wrong to even raise the question? 

As far as $42k/year being a professional salary for an unskilled job?  Customer service experience in industry is listed as required and not preferred in the job sescription.  Computer skills and "Excellent spelling and grammar" are also listed as required. So I do challenge the assumption that it's a job that requires "very little skills, training or education".  The $42k comes from 2014 BLS data that customer service jobs in software average $18-21/hour.  That's why I think "anyone" is owed that wage even CSR reps for Eat24.

Thanks for calling my opinions unique. I will take that as a compliment but want to point out I can hold these opinions and still be "take charge" in terms of how I run my life.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 05:53:35 AM by hownowbrowncow »

Paul der Krake

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #169 on: February 26, 2016, 06:13:19 AM »
As far as $42k/year being a professional salary for an unskilled job?  Customer service experience in industry is listed as required and not preferred in the job sescription.  Computer skills and "Excellent spelling and grammar" are also listed as required. So I do challenge the assumption that it's a job that requires "very little skills, training or education".
Most CSR jobs are as unskilled as they come. Knowing how to operate a computer, write without mistakes, and escalate when a situation doesn't fit the flowchart of troubleshooting, is something you can train any high-school educated person in 3 days flat. Seriously, who the bleep considers good grammar as a skill worth marketing yourself for? It's the kind of things you put a resume at 16 when you have nothing better, along with "very punctual" and "Microsoft Word".

Now the labor market is far from perfect. Some have cornered themselves into jobs where they are grossly underpaid, and others who are dumb as bricks have somehow found their way into high paying jobs. But come on, bringing up software pay as an example of entitlement?

ender

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #170 on: February 26, 2016, 06:18:10 AM »
I don't disagree with the "people shouldn't take the Yelp job if it's too low" thought but often it's a dammed if you dammed if you don't situation.

1) Take job in front of you, low pay but bird in the hand OR
2) Turn down low paying job, keep looking for a job while digging a deeper hole

The problem is that she took option 3:

3) take the job, then act entitled to something better simply by existing, wrote a long "you suck!" public letter to your CEO for a job that even though it sucks has ridiculously better benefits/perks than likely most people in the Bay area get at their minimum wage jobs (people who are doing option 1), and got herself fired for reasons other than that - which given her attitude, it wouldn't surprise me to find she was difficult to work with and got fired for unrelated reasons

Doing (1) is admirable. Doing (3) is not.


Rollin

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #171 on: February 26, 2016, 06:44:56 AM »
I admit I only skimmed most of the thread but it didn't look like anyone had posted the rebuttal:

http://www.businessinsider.com/stefanie-williams-response-to-yelp-employee-talia-jane-2016-2

That was phenomenal.  Demolished the original piece, ripped the author to shreds, but also just had a good "work hard" message.

She must be a Mustachian, because she delivered a pretty good FACEPUNCH!

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #172 on: February 26, 2016, 07:00:45 AM »
I think this is WAY unnecessarily mean-spirited and reductive.

What's funny is that I saw one post on here get deleted by a moderator because somebody said they should slap someone (who happened to be a woman) to get some sense into her.  Meanwhile, the actual owner of this website encourages punching people in the face to make them understand things.  Considering how many times "face punch" is used by the actual owner of this website, it shouldn't be surprising that there is a tacit acceptance of faux violence as a means of making people make smarter decisions.

The moderators are people and have to use their judgement. I've had a post moderated that I didn't think was especially out of line, but I see why somebody might not have liked it. I've seen worse posts get ignored. I'm not going to get all upset about it. I think it's nice that the mods leave posts simply struck out in all but the worst circumstances.

MandalayVA

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #173 on: February 26, 2016, 07:04:43 AM »
The 36-year-old didn't "destroy" anyone.  That's typical millennial overkill where everything is the best ever or the worst ever--and a 36-year-old these days is at the far end of millennialism.  Saying that someone the 29-year-old knew giving her a job was "privilege?"  In the past I've gotten jobs courtesy of people I knew and so have a lot of others.

golden1

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #174 on: February 26, 2016, 08:19:24 AM »
Quote
An article/post she tweeted:
http://www.moneyaftergraduation.com/2016/02/25/the-bootstrapping-millennial-martyrdom-complex/

I agree with this article 100% actually.  The bootstrap mentality hurts everyone and doesn't add anything of value.  It's just self-congratulatory bullshit.     

You know, she may be entitled, but she is also right about the fact that things could be a whole lot better.  She personally didn't make wise choices, but when I read her article and I read the other responses, my thoughts are summed up as "Why does this have to be so goddamned hard?"  and "Why are we all in this vicious race to the bottom where we are tearing down people instead of working to make everyone's lives better?"  Saying that she didn't do everything perfectly doesn't invalidate her observations about her and her co-workers. 

Remember when we actually cared about making things better for the generations that came after us?  Now it seems like we just  can't sleep at night unless people suffered like they did.  They feel this deep need to share their pain by passing it on to others.  Hell yeah, it's way easier to rip people to shreds than it is to actually fix something. 

Guess what, shaming and berating people almost never changes behavior - ask most overweight people.  So the only conclusion I can come to is that you don't really care about changing this behavior.  You care about validating your life experience.

And going back to my older post that most people ignored, it is likely this girl is probably depressed.  That in itself is going to lead to poor decision making and the extreme difficulty to make changes in your life. 

Ramblin' Ma'am

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #175 on: February 26, 2016, 08:40:22 AM »

I agree with this article 100% actually.  The bootstrap mentality hurts everyone and doesn't add anything of value.  It's just self-congratulatory bullshit.     

You know, she may be entitled, but she is also right about the fact that things could be a whole lot better.  She personally didn't make wise choices, but when I read her article and I read the other responses, my thoughts are summed up as "Why does this have to be so goddamned hard?"  and "Why are we all in this vicious race to the bottom where we are tearing down people instead of working to make everyone's lives better?"  Saying that she didn't do everything perfectly doesn't invalidate her observations about her and her co-workers. 

Remember when we actually cared about making things better for the generations that came after us?  Now it seems like we just  can't sleep at night unless people suffered like they did. 

I think it's important to keep in mind that this girl has been working at Yelp for less than a year. She is outraged by the idea of having to do customer service for a year before she's considered for other roles. This is not someone who has been toiling away for decades and never seen a raise or promotion.

And as some posters upthread pointed out, she pretty clearly considers herself superior to retail workers. That seems like entitlement to me, if her skills aren't any more marketable than theirs. Sounds like she believes she deserves a paycheck for being clever and witty and awesome.

horsepoor

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #176 on: February 26, 2016, 09:14:50 AM »
What should a "living wage" buy?  Having an apartment to one's self and a car in a a high COL city, or a room in a house, public transit and adequate food and heat?  It seems like her wage is was enough to buy one, but not the other.  So we can argue endless circles about how unfair it is that she's not earning a living wage, but that hasn't been defined anywhere in this thread.  Once living wage = apartment and car, does it then become a house and an SUV?  The benefits package she was getting can't be ignored in this equation either.

And why is it OK to get whatever degree without worry about it's marketability, and then aim to get into a more competitive field with that degree, and then choose one of the most expensive places in the country to do so, and then whine that it's hard?  Not everyone can live on the coast writing memes for a living, and the market is going to bear that out (people are going to be willing to live on beans and rent someone's closet, and that's who you'll have to compete with, vs. if you decide to take your degree and go teach in say, Nebraska [just an example, I know nothing of the Nebraska job market for teachers]).  I just don't get why it should be easy street when people decide to go for such a niche career, where they're aware going in is going to be generally low paid and difficult to break into?

monstermonster

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #177 on: February 26, 2016, 09:18:57 AM »
As far as $42k/year being a professional salary for an unskilled job?  Customer service experience in industry is listed as required and not preferred in the job sescription.  Computer skills and "Excellent spelling and grammar" are also listed as required. So I do challenge the assumption that it's a job that requires "very little skills, training or education".
Most CSR jobs are as unskilled as they come. Knowing how to operate a computer, write without mistakes, and escalate when a situation doesn't fit the flowchart of troubleshooting, is something you can train any high-school educated person in 3 days flat. Seriously, who the bleep considers good grammar as a skill worth marketing yourself for? It's the kind of things you put a resume at 16 when you have nothing better, along with "very punctual" and "Microsoft Word".
As someone who does hiring for entry-level office jobs both 1) computer skills and 2) grammar are things I have trouble recruiting for. Entry-level jobs (paying our minimum here, $9.75/hr) actually have trouble getting a pool of applicants that have English as their first language or near-native fluency and have a good grasp on grammar. I spend a TON of my day correcting grammar in what should be a simple mail merge for letters with a few (in my view) common sense edits- including the fact that apparently we don't teach basic letter writing/formatting in school anymore. Computer skills is mostly a challenge when it comes to recently incarcerated and older folks that come into this job.

If we raise the wage to $15/hr, suddenly I am overwhelmed by qualified applicants. Almost too qualified (master's degrees, etc).

Just my experience as a hiring manager.

monstermonster

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #178 on: February 26, 2016, 09:24:37 AM »
What should a "living wage" buy?  Having an apartment to one's self and a car in a a high COL city, or a room in a house, public transit and adequate food and heat?  It seems like her wage is was enough to buy one, but not the other.  So we can argue endless circles about how unfair it is that she's not earning a living wage, but that hasn't been defined anywhere in this thread.  Once living wage = apartment and car, does it then become a house and an SUV?  The benefits package she was getting can't be ignored in this equation either.

This is the definition (and calculator) of a living wage as done when accounting for regional differences done MIT.

The living wage is defined as the wage needed to cover basic family expenses (basic needs budget) plus all relevant taxes. The living wage calculation does not include publicly provided income or housing assistance. Values are reported in 2014 dollars. To convert values from annual to hourly, a work-year of 2,080 hours (52, 40 hour work weeks) is assumed. The basic needs budget is calculated as follows:

Basic needs budget = Food cost + child care cost + (insurance premiums + health care costs) + housing cost + transportation cost + other necessities cost

From their methodology: The food component of the basic needs budget was compiled using the USDA’s low-cost food plan. The housing component captures the likely cost of rental housing in a given area in 2014 using HUD Fair Market Rents (FMR) estimates. The health component of the basic needs budget includes: (1) health insurance costs for employer sponsored plans, (3) medical services, (3) drugs, and (4) medical supplies.

Their San Francisco Living wage for one adult came out at $14.37- that is based on $14,292 of annual housing expenses, which is roughly equivalent to her rent.

Edit: The idea that living wage proponents are going to suffer from some sort of hedonic adaptation because they're trying to make it possible to support yourself without relying on government services and assistance is fucking ridiculous. You know what people are trying to do? Feed themselves. Have a roof over their heads. Argh. The hubris of assuming that because you got a degree in STEM you should be able to feed yourself without government assistance on the same number of hours as work as someone else who can't afford a place to live just gets my goat. You should NOT have to rely on foodstamps or get on the 10 year waiting list for Section 8 when you're working 40 hours a week. You shouldn't.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 09:39:40 AM by monstermonster »

horsepoor

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #179 on: February 26, 2016, 10:13:41 AM »

Edit: The idea that living wage proponents are going to suffer from some sort of hedonic adaptation because they're trying to make it possible to support yourself without relying on government services and assistance is fucking ridiculous. You know what people are trying to do? Feed themselves. Have a roof over their heads. Argh. The hubris of assuming that because you got a degree in STEM you should be able to feed yourself without government assistance on the same number of hours as work as someone else who can't afford a place to live just gets my goat. You should NOT have to rely on foodstamps or get on the 10 year waiting list for Section 8 when you're working 40 hours a week. You shouldn't.

I never said that.  Taking a room in a house to cut ridiculous housing expenses for a couple years while in an entry level position and gaining experience is not the same as saying someone should make concessions and live on foodstamps forever.  I also never said anything about government services.  It's very clear from the COL page you linked to (very interesting BTW, so thank you) that housing is the elephant in the room for someone in SF.   Move to Fresno County, for instance, and the listed wage for sales stays the same $28K, but housing costs are half, making that wage $6K above the living wage for the locale, whereas it's about $1,500 under living wage for a single person in SF.  So is it also ridiculous that someone should have to live in Fresno instead of the Bay Area? 

So you're saying that there shouldn't be variance in wages based on marketability of skills?  We should all be able to make a living wage as underwater basket weavers?

mamagoose

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #180 on: February 26, 2016, 11:13:55 AM »
I think the young woman needed a wake-up call and finally got one. When I graduated with a master's degree in engineering from Stanford, I made the choice to leave the Bay Area primarily because of the cost of living. Recent grads in my program were living with three women in a one-bedroom apartment in SF, while working in engineering in the city. So no, it's not just the English majors that have to make sacrifices there. It's a fact of life that your cost of living is higher there, and the pay of a new hire non-technical employee at a tech company will be lower than the pay of a computer engineer with experience. If the writer is as amazing as she believes, finding a job in a less expensive city should not be a problem.

MgoSam

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #181 on: February 26, 2016, 11:30:44 AM »
I think the young woman needed a wake-up call and finally got one. When I graduated with a master's degree in engineering from Stanford, I made the choice to leave the Bay Area primarily because of the cost of living.

One of my high school friends was an engineer in SF. About 3 years ago he took like a hefty pay cut (I think it was like 30%) to transfer to Minnesota. His COL is way higher here, there he was paying up the wazoo for rent, here he can easily pay his mortgage and has more disposable income.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #182 on: February 26, 2016, 11:37:09 AM »
I think the young woman needed a wake-up call and finally got one. When I graduated with a master's degree in engineering from Stanford, I made the choice to leave the Bay Area primarily because of the cost of living.

One of my high school friends was an engineer in SF. About 3 years ago he took like a hefty pay cut (I think it was like 30%) to transfer to Minnesota. His COL is way higher here, there he was paying up the wazoo for rent, here he can easily pay his mortgage and has more disposable income.

Do you mean QOL?

monstermonster

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #183 on: February 26, 2016, 12:17:33 PM »
So you're saying that there shouldn't be variance in wages based on marketability of skills?  We should all be able to make a living wage as underwater basket weavers?

In fact, people don't even get paid MINIMUM wage (let alone a living wage) to be underwater basket weavers - or clothes sorters at goodwill. Why? Because they're exempted from the minimum wage because they have disabilities. If they have developmental disabilities, organizations can pay them $.30 or $.60/hr to do "menial tasks". Because we don't value the human right to have work that is demanded by the marketplace be compensated at a value that is enough to live on.
This is legal under US law. They're called sheltered workshops.

I'm trained as an economist -I do believe there should be a supply and demand differential based on marketability of skills. BUT I also believe that the free market fails to keep people out of poverty and is rather bad at predicting and serving human needs. If you need a human to do a task, and the market demands it, I believe there should be a bottom level compensation based on a social contract that says you should be able to support yourself without relying on government assistance. If a company demands the labor, the workers should be able to demand a wage floor that supports them in the market where that labor is demanded. If the free market ruled, we certainly wouldn't have 8 hour workdays or a 40 hour work week. It took a social contract to get that norm - and a lot of work on the part of the International Workers of the World union to get that social contract to be enforced.

Sure, living in Fresno would be great for these workers, if there weren't a such thing as a bid-rent function. There's a relationship between the cost of housing and the cost of transportation - including opportunity cost - not to mention the cost to the environment to have people commuting 200 miles each way. There is an incentive to legislate a minimum floor that allows workers to support themselves and their families without that commute - if only for reducing congestion and greenhouse gases.

If San Francisco gains no benefits from having low-skill workers, such as servers, customer service agents, retail workers, housekeepers, and busboys, then great. They can have fail to have a wage floor and then they can't have those workers located in the city center. But if they don't want to create (even more than they already have) a city that is a monoculture of rich, elite tech workers -not to mention no families or children - then there needs to be action in either the government or private sector to make sure that workers can support themselves in the city. And there needs to be housing policies that bring down the cost of housing.
I am a firm believer that you are not superiorly qualified to have access to basic human necessities or the ability to raise a family because you earn $200,000 a year working 45 hours a week pushing Regular Expressions around instead of brooms.




Sid Hoffman

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #184 on: February 26, 2016, 12:36:17 PM »
On the bright side, somebody took screen shots of all the things she managed to make out of that bag of rice she said she lived on:

http://thatsalotofrice.com/

She must be the best cook in the universe to have made all those things out of that one bag of rice she said she's starving on.

dsmexpat

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #185 on: February 26, 2016, 12:46:04 PM »
A few points here.

Firstly, a company that attempts to underpay people in an extremely high cost of living area is going to suffer high staff turnover and discontentment because people cannot be expected to work where they cannot live. It's not anyone's "fault", she didn't set the wage and they didn't make her accept the job, but it is a shitty situation. Unless you adjust for regional variations you will have discrepancies in which a living wage in one area is not a living wage in another and people will get mad. It's just shitty planning on the part of the company.

Secondly, y'all got played. She was in a dead end job barely making enough to eat, let alone attempt to make her actual career goals come true. It's not enough to aspire to be a writer, she needed exposure, a lot of people to read a sample of her writing and a hook. Her public letter to her CEO was always a resignation letter and it was intended to have exactly the response it had. She didn't want the job she lost, she wanted to lose it as a stepping stone to the job she wanted.

Honestly you should be applauding how she gamed the system. Whether or not you agree with her points she managed to tap into a popular sentiment with an articulate argument which was massively shared and popularized. This is how you make yourself stand out as an aspiring writer in SF, not by keeping your head down and eating rice until life gives you the shit you want.

crispy

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #186 on: February 26, 2016, 01:17:12 PM »
So you're saying that there shouldn't be variance in wages based on marketability of skills?  We should all be able to make a living wage as underwater basket weavers?

In fact, people don't even get paid MINIMUM wage (let alone a living wage) to be underwater basket weavers - or clothes sorters at goodwill. Why? Because they're exempted from the minimum wage because they have disabilities. If they have developmental disabilities, organizations can pay them $.30 or $.60/hr to do "menial tasks". Because we don't value the human right to have work that is demanded by the marketplace be compensated at a value that is enough to live on.
This is legal under US law. They're called sheltered workshops.

I'm trained as an economist -I do believe there should be a supply and demand differential based on marketability of skills. BUT I also believe that the free market fails to keep people out of poverty and is rather bad at predicting and serving human needs. If you need a human to do a task, and the market demands it, I believe there should be a bottom level compensation based on a social contract that says you should be able to support yourself without relying on government assistance. If a company demands the labor, the workers should be able to demand a wage floor that supports them in the market where that labor is demanded. If the free market ruled, we certainly wouldn't have 8 hour workdays or a 40 hour work week. It took a social contract to get that norm - and a lot of work on the part of the International Workers of the World union to get that social contract to be enforced.

Sure, living in Fresno would be great for these workers, if there weren't a such thing as a bid-rent function. There's a relationship between the cost of housing and the cost of transportation - including opportunity cost - not to mention the cost to the environment to have people commuting 200 miles each way. There is an incentive to legislate a minimum floor that allows workers to support themselves and their families without that commute - if only for reducing congestion and greenhouse gases.

If San Francisco gains no benefits from having low-skill workers, such as servers, customer service agents, retail workers, housekeepers, and busboys, then great. They can have fail to have a wage floor and then they can't have those workers located in the city center. But if they don't want to create (even more than they already have) a city that is a monoculture of rich, elite tech workers -not to mention no families or children - then there needs to be action in either the government or private sector to make sure that workers can support themselves in the city. And there needs to be housing policies that bring down the cost of housing.
I am a firm believer that you are not superiorly qualified to have access to basic human necessities or the ability to raise a family because you earn $200,000 a year working 45 hours a week pushing Regular Expressions around instead of brooms.

Not necessarily true. The Goodwill employees in my area make above minimum wage whether they are disabled or not.  I know because I work with them on a daily basis.  Some non-profits that work with the profoundly disable do pay less than minimum wage, but most of the clients have job coaches because they cannot work independently.  In this situation, it is less about the work itself and more about allowing the client to have some independence and a feeling of self-reliance.


monstermonster

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #187 on: February 26, 2016, 01:30:21 PM »
Not necessarily true. The Goodwill employees in my area make above minimum wage whether they are disabled or not.  I know because I work with them on a daily basis.  Some non-profits that work with the profoundly disable do pay less than minimum wage, but most of the clients have job coaches because they cannot work independently.  In this situation, it is less about the work itself and more about allowing the client to have some independence and a feeling of self-reliance.

Yes, you are correct, it's not all goodwill employees, only ones in qualified sheltered workshops (who are located off-site from retail Goodwill locations) - and Goodwill does use sheltered workshops. And sheltered workshops are banned in different states (and we just got it banned in Oregon - well, phased out in most circumstances where they will actually end up in integrated jobs, yay!).

It's still abhorent as an employment practice. In addition to the sub-par wages, they're also socially isolated and only working with other people with developmental disabilities. In the lawsuit we worked to put together, many many workers qualified for integrated employment but were forced to remain at sheltered workshops. From the press release "Angela Kehler, 48, who has been forced to remain in sheltered workshops since she was laid off from a successful job placement at a drugstore; Elizabeth Harrah, 32, who previously worked at McDonald’s and Safeway, and now is at a sheltered workshop while waiting for assistance to return to competitive employment; and Zavier Kinville, 27, who is stuck at a sheltered workshop, awaiting an opportunity for integrated community employment.  Kinville has volunteered in the community, where his favorite job was reading to children. "

For more than a decade, lead plaintiff Paula Lane, 48, has had the same request: “Find me an outside job.”  Instead, she and 137 other people with disabilities package gloves or put parts into boxes on assembly lines in a noisy and crowded sheltered workshop. Over a 12-month period in 2010-11, she made a high of 66 cents an hour.


Goldielocks

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #188 on: February 26, 2016, 01:40:23 PM »
What should a "living wage" buy?  Having an apartment to one's self and a car in a a high COL city, or a room in a house, public transit and adequate food and heat?  It seems like her wage is was enough to buy one, but not the other.  So we can argue endless circles about how unfair it is that she's not earning a living wage, but that hasn't been defined anywhere in this thread.  Once living wage = apartment and car, does it then become a house and an SUV?  The benefits package she was getting can't be ignored in this equation either.

This is the definition (and calculator) of a living wage as done when accounting for regional differences done MIT.

The living wage is defined as the wage needed to cover basic family expenses (basic needs budget) plus all relevant taxes. The living wage calculation does not include publicly provided income or housing assistance. Values are reported in 2014 dollars. To convert values from annual to hourly, a work-year of 2,080 hours (52, 40 hour work weeks) is assumed. The basic needs budget is calculated as follows:

Basic needs budget = Food cost + child care cost + (insurance premiums + health care costs) + housing cost + transportation cost + other necessities cost

From their methodology: The food component of the basic needs budget was compiled using the USDA’s low-cost food plan. The housing component captures the likely cost of rental housing in a given area in 2014 using HUD Fair Market Rents (FMR) estimates. The health component of the basic needs budget includes: (1) health insurance costs for employer sponsored plans, (3) medical services, (3) drugs, and (4) medical supplies.

Their San Francisco Living wage for one adult came out at $14.37- that is based on $14,292 of annual housing expenses, which is roughly equivalent to her rent.

Edit: The idea that living wage proponents are going to suffer from some sort of hedonic adaptation because they're trying to make it possible to support yourself without relying on government services and assistance is fucking ridiculous. You know what people are trying to do? Feed themselves. Have a roof over their heads. Argh. The hubris of assuming that because you got a degree in STEM you should be able to feed yourself without government assistance on the same number of hours as work as someone else who can't afford a place to live just gets my goat. You should NOT have to rely on foodstamps or get on the 10 year waiting list for Section 8 when you're working 40 hours a week. You shouldn't.

It is highly likely that Yelp calculated the single person living wage, using this calc and deducted the health care expense portion of it, that the employer pays.   $14.37 - Employer paid medical = $12 per hour perhaps?   Then they compared it to the going market wage, and were able to retain qualified persons at this rate.

Should we now rage against an employer in San Francisco paying the "approved" living wage?

My thought is that Yelp should consider reimbursing for transit passes;  and / or setting up a part time employee classification that pays no benefits, but does provide $14.50 per hour for 25 hours per week.  If SF area you cannot afford to live on your own, then they are trying to attract young persons starting out, willing to share, and people who are working for extra spending money, not "need for basic living" money, and part timers may fit this profile.



monstermonster

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #189 on: February 26, 2016, 02:00:34 PM »
What should a "living wage" buy?  Having an apartment to one's self and a car in a a high COL city, or a room in a house, public transit and adequate food and heat?  It seems like her wage is was enough to buy one, but not the other.  So we can argue endless circles about how unfair it is that she's not earning a living wage, but that hasn't been defined anywhere in this thread.  Once living wage = apartment and car, does it then become a house and an SUV?  The benefits package she was getting can't be ignored in this equation either.

This is the definition (and calculator) of a living wage as done when accounting for regional differences done MIT.

The living wage is defined as the wage needed to cover basic family expenses (basic needs budget) plus all relevant taxes. The living wage calculation does not include publicly provided income or housing assistance. Values are reported in 2014 dollars. To convert values from annual to hourly, a work-year of 2,080 hours (52, 40 hour work weeks) is assumed. The basic needs budget is calculated as follows:

Basic needs budget = Food cost + child care cost + (insurance premiums + health care costs) + housing cost + transportation cost + other necessities cost

From their methodology: The food component of the basic needs budget was compiled using the USDA’s low-cost food plan. The housing component captures the likely cost of rental housing in a given area in 2014 using HUD Fair Market Rents (FMR) estimates. The health component of the basic needs budget includes: (1) health insurance costs for employer sponsored plans, (3) medical services, (3) drugs, and (4) medical supplies.

Their San Francisco Living wage for one adult came out at $14.37- that is based on $14,292 of annual housing expenses, which is roughly equivalent to her rent.

Edit: The idea that living wage proponents are going to suffer from some sort of hedonic adaptation because they're trying to make it possible to support yourself without relying on government services and assistance is fucking ridiculous. You know what people are trying to do? Feed themselves. Have a roof over their heads. Argh. The hubris of assuming that because you got a degree in STEM you should be able to feed yourself without government assistance on the same number of hours as work as someone else who can't afford a place to live just gets my goat. You should NOT have to rely on foodstamps or get on the 10 year waiting list for Section 8 when you're working 40 hours a week. You shouldn't.

It is highly likely that Yelp calculated the single person living wage, using this calc and deducted the health care expense portion of it, that the employer pays.   $14.37 - Employer paid medical = $12 per hour perhaps?   Then they compared it to the going market wage, and were able to retain qualified persons at this rate.
That was part of her argument though - there's a revolving door at the organization which lowers productivity - and they aren't retaining workers.

Maybe I'm reading the methodology wrong, but it appears that this living wage model is assuming the cost of the employee's health insurance costs for employer sponsored plans. At any rate, the cost for a single adult in the calculation was $2,099, which divided by 2080 hours of work per year, would be $1/hr, making the wage $13.37 - which is $2800/yr more, or enough for more than 2 months of rent at her current wage.

I doubt they DID consult a living wage model, given that they're paying the minimum wage for SF.


hownowbrowncow

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #190 on: February 26, 2016, 03:13:25 PM »
If paying employees even a penny more than the market demands is a sign of poor business acumen, why aren't more people ripping Costco for doing just that?  Stupid Costco with their above min wage pay and benefits for entry level jobs - they're the ones doing it wrong, not Yelp.

arebelspy

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #191 on: February 26, 2016, 03:33:24 PM »
If paying employees even a penny more than the market demands is a sign of poor business acumen, why aren't more people ripping Costco for doing just that?  Stupid Costco with their above min wage pay and benefits for entry level jobs - they're the ones doing it wrong, not Yelp.

Why is either company doing wrong?

Companies are free to act as they want, within the law.

We, as consumers, are free to vote with our dollars and shop at certain places, or use certain services, or not, as we see fit.

We, as citizens, are free to vote with our votes to get politicians who pass laws that we agree with.

Those are two very clear ways we can influence companies.  Neither company is doing wrong, in my opinion.

If you like Costco's model better, support them by shopping there.  If you think Yelp should pay more, support higher minimum wage where they have offices.

Those are direct things you can do to help things.

Whinging and moaning doesn't help (not that you are, but the author of the article in question, and many others).
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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #192 on: February 26, 2016, 03:46:30 PM »
If San Francisco gains no benefits from having low-skill workers, such as servers, customer service agents, retail workers, housekeepers, and busboys, then great. They can have fail to have a wage floor and then they can't have those workers located in the city center. But if they don't want to create (even more than they already have) a city that is a monoculture of rich, elite tech workers -not to mention no families or children - then there needs to be action in either the government or private sector to make sure that workers can support themselves in the city. And there needs to be housing policies that bring down the cost of housing.
I am a firm believer that you are not superiorly qualified to have access to basic human necessities or the ability to raise a family because you earn $200,000 a year working 45 hours a week pushing Regular Expressions around instead of brooms.

Indeed. However, people born and raised in those HCOL cities often don't have to pay as much to get those necessities, if they have family support or if they've owned their modest homes a long time.

One thing that sometimes happens in higher COL areas is that jobs start going to the second generation and you get a city that's economically closed to outsiders but that favors people who already live there. For example, adult children of high income earners who already have a home typically have a place to stay and don't need to worry about living independently if they can't jump right into a high-paying job immediately after graduating (or if they graduate at all). They can get by on a short-term job with low pay, or even an unpaid internship, to get their foot in the door. Or, they can slog along at a below-poverty-level job but still save money because their living expenses are low. It's because they're being subsidized by the Bank Of Mom And Dad.

For a person who fits that description and who is trying to build job experience, a HCOL area actually works in their favor because it deters other people with competitive levels of skill and experience from moving in and out-competing them for available work. If someone suddenly starts enforcing a wage floor where it's possible to live independently even at HCOL rates, some of the lower-income workers will be able to afford to move out on their own, decreasing the available housing supply and driving prices up. But the higher wage floor will also attract competition from out of town, and suddenly the child of middle-aged lawyers isn't able to find work in retail anymore.

crispy

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #193 on: February 26, 2016, 03:58:19 PM »
Not necessarily true. The Goodwill employees in my area make above minimum wage whether they are disabled or not.  I know because I work with them on a daily basis.  Some non-profits that work with the profoundly disable do pay less than minimum wage, but most of the clients have job coaches because they cannot work independently.  In this situation, it is less about the work itself and more about allowing the client to have some independence and a feeling of self-reliance.

Yes, you are correct, it's not all goodwill employees, only ones in qualified sheltered workshops (who are located off-site from retail Goodwill locations) - and Goodwill does use sheltered workshops. And sheltered workshops are banned in different states (and we just got it banned in Oregon - well, phased out in most circumstances where they will actually end up in integrated jobs, yay!).

It's still abhorent as an employment practice. In addition to the sub-par wages, they're also socially isolated and only working with other people with developmental disabilities. In the lawsuit we worked to put together, many many workers qualified for integrated employment but were forced to remain at sheltered workshops. From the press release "Angela Kehler, 48, who has been forced to remain in sheltered workshops since she was laid off from a successful job placement at a drugstore; Elizabeth Harrah, 32, who previously worked at McDonald’s and Safeway, and now is at a sheltered workshop while waiting for assistance to return to competitive employment; and Zavier Kinville, 27, who is stuck at a sheltered workshop, awaiting an opportunity for integrated community employment.  Kinville has volunteered in the community, where his favorite job was reading to children. "

For more than a decade, lead plaintiff Paula Lane, 48, has had the same request: “Find me an outside job.”  Instead, she and 137 other people with disabilities package gloves or put parts into boxes on assembly lines in a noisy and crowded sheltered workshop. Over a 12-month period in 2010-11, she made a high of 66 cents an hour.

Some, not all, which was my point. Goodwill is made up of many regional organizations and not all have the same labor practices, pay, etc.  My area absolutely does not use shedltered workshops. We do have another local organization that does have sheltered workshops for adults with severe mental and congnitive disabilities, and they have a point waiting list for participants. They whole point is not to take advantage of people who are impaired, but to teach life skills and helped them feel empowered and productive. It is not a comparable situation.

tobitonic

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #194 on: February 26, 2016, 09:01:30 PM »
Quote
An article/post she tweeted:
http://www.moneyaftergraduation.com/2016/02/25/the-bootstrapping-millennial-martyrdom-complex/

I agree with this article 100% actually.  The bootstrap mentality hurts everyone and doesn't add anything of value.  It's just self-congratulatory bullshit.     

You know, she may be entitled, but she is also right about the fact that things could be a whole lot better.  She personally didn't make wise choices, but when I read her article and I read the other responses, my thoughts are summed up as "Why does this have to be so goddamned hard?"  and "Why are we all in this vicious race to the bottom where we are tearing down people instead of working to make everyone's lives better?"  Saying that she didn't do everything perfectly doesn't invalidate her observations about her and her co-workers. 

Remember when we actually cared about making things better for the generations that came after us?  Now it seems like we just  can't sleep at night unless people suffered like they did.  They feel this deep need to share their pain by passing it on to others.  Hell yeah, it's way easier to rip people to shreds than it is to actually fix something. 

Guess what, shaming and berating people almost never changes behavior - ask most overweight people.  So the only conclusion I can come to is that you don't really care about changing this behavior.  You care about validating your life experience.

And going back to my older post that most people ignored, it is likely this girl is probably depressed.  That in itself is going to lead to poor decision making and the extreme difficulty to make changes in your life.

Pretty much everything you said. I get that this is the shaming forum, which I think is an icky concept in itself. But this is that giant anti-humanistic streak in Mustachianism, and in much of American society at large, that factors into why we're so dreadfully behind in so many social areas compared to our fellow wealthy countries. Yes, she's young. Yes, she's inexperienced. Yes, some / many / most in San Francisco / the US / the world have it worse than her.

In the end, she's still right about a lot of things.

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #195 on: February 26, 2016, 11:11:13 PM »
A few points here.

Firstly, a company that attempts to underpay people in an extremely high cost of living area is going to suffer high staff turnover and discontentment because people cannot be expected to work where they cannot live. It's not anyone's "fault", she didn't set the wage and they didn't make her accept the job, but it is a shitty situation. Unless you adjust for regional variations you will have discrepancies in which a living wage in one area is not a living wage in another and people will get mad. It's just shitty planning on the part of the company.

Secondly, y'all got played. She was in a dead end job barely making enough to eat, let alone attempt to make her actual career goals come true. It's not enough to aspire to be a writer, she needed exposure, a lot of people to read a sample of her writing and a hook. Her public letter to her CEO was always a resignation letter and it was intended to have exactly the response it had. She didn't want the job she lost, she wanted to lose it as a stepping stone to the job she wanted.

Honestly you should be applauding how she gamed the system. Whether or not you agree with her points she managed to tap into a popular sentiment with an articulate argument which was massively shared and popularized. This is how you make yourself stand out as an aspiring writer in SF, not by keeping your head down and eating rice until life gives you the shit you want.

So you think she premeditated the whole thing? Whether or not she did, it seems like she's definitely riding the publicity wave that has come of it. Well, considering the questionable credibility, I think most places won't be inclined to hire her. On the other hand, all you need is one sucker. And beyond that, I guess since she seems to imply that she's an immortal in the writing world, perhaps she'll make a ton of money publishing and selling a book about her life.

From http://thatsalotofrice.com/:

Cindy Dahmer · Works at Retired
"I bet she'll get some high paying job being a writer for some bullshit though. Internet makes you famous and wealthy, that's the real reason she did this. It's a scam and it might work in her favour unfortunately. Either that or she'll just get thousands of dollars in donations from misguided people she'll exploit."

Some people are even speculating in the comments section here, http://www.liberalamerica.org/2016/02/23/entitlement-is-a-lie-an-open-letter-to-stephanie-williams/, that she got that CBS traffic reporter position before she wrote the open letter.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 11:24:51 PM by jplee3 »

golden1

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #196 on: February 27, 2016, 09:56:08 AM »
This girl had a very good reason for being afraid to live with other people btw.

Quote
http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1374-7-things-i-learned-as-accomplice-to-mass-murder.html

There is always more to the story than meets the eye.  No wonder she couldn't count on her family to help her.  Jesus.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 10:12:23 AM by golden1 »

arebelspy

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #197 on: February 27, 2016, 10:12:45 AM »
This girl had a very good reason for being afraid to live with other people btw.

She wasn't afraid to live alone, she did that.

She didn't want a roommate.
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Nederstash

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #198 on: February 27, 2016, 10:35:25 AM »
This girl had a very good reason for being afraid to live with other people btw.

She wasn't afraid to live alone, she did that.

She didn't want a roommate.

^ This right here.

Whatever excuse she has, she decided she wanted to live her life a certain way and expected the world to adjust accordingly. Bad luck, buttercup, it's the other way around.

monstermonster

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #199 on: February 27, 2016, 11:42:59 AM »
This girl had a very good reason for being afraid to live with other people btw.

She wasn't afraid to live alone, she did that.

She didn't want a roommate.

^ This right here.

Whatever excuse she has, she decided she wanted to live her life a certain way and expected the world to adjust accordingly. Bad luck, buttercup, it's the other way around.

That story is fucking terrifying. Poor woman.