Author Topic: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!  (Read 77550 times)

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #100 on: February 24, 2016, 12:05:22 PM »
The problem I have with this young lady is that she had only worked at Yelp a very short time.  Yes, she has to put in one year before moving on to a different job.  Most companies have this rule.  Suck it up for one year and then start applying for better jobs that pay more money. 

She is not special and she needs to pay her dues.

Exactly... she knew what she was getting into (in addition to what she was going to get paid). So why complain about it?! Likely the naivety of people who don't consider cost of living in relation to their job.... but it's hard to believe that would be something she wouldn't have known moving to the Bay Area...

GoingConcern

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #101 on: February 24, 2016, 12:08:08 PM »
I think that's exactly why people like Talia Jane feel entitled to stuff like fancy restaurant meals, nice alcohol, and other luxuries that are now seen as "normal". I don't know about other people, but they certainly weren't the norm in my parents day, or even in my childhood. They were stuff that rich people did. But it seems like there's been a standard of living inflation across all classes and income levels. One of my best childhood friends, whose husband works a solid blue-collar job, just went on vacation in Hawaii. When we were kids, nobody we knew had ever been to Hawaii.

So now people who don't do these things feel like they're "poor", when twenty years ago it was the norm.

I don't agree with her mentality but do you really think these things were not normal in older generations? 20 year olds in the 80s didn't go out to bar and restaurants with their friends ? 

Look at the median rent prices for San Fransisco adjusted for inflation:



Granted much of the rise is due to simple supply and demand and the tech/Silicon Valley boom has increased prices rapidly but I would bet across the United States wages have not kept up with housing costs, education and healthcare costs.

She deserves blame for her own life choices but there was a time when an English degree would land you a solid job. Today with dying printed media and the oversupply of college graduates it will land you a minimum wage job.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 12:12:26 PM by GoingConcern »

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #102 on: February 24, 2016, 12:21:38 PM »
The problem I have with this young lady is that she had only worked at Yelp a very short time.  Yes, she has to put in one year before moving on to a different job.  Most companies have this rule.  Suck it up for one year and then start applying for better jobs that pay more money. 

She is not special and she needs to pay her dues.

Exactly... she knew what she was getting into (in addition to what she was going to get paid). So why complain about it?! Likely the naivety of people who don't consider cost of living in relation to their job.... but it's hard to believe that would be something she wouldn't have known moving to the Bay Area...

I agree that this is what is missing.  Where is the narrative of "work your way up from the mail room."  Tweeting and making memes doesn't even seem like a job to me, but then, I'm an old fuddy duddy.  With lots of people being pushed towards college, well, a plain old college degree doesn't make you such a special snowflake, so surprise, you've got to work your way up from the mail room just like everyone else.

I really don't get why she wouldn't take a second job.  Apparently her freelancing is really special but not paying the bills?  It seems like with the great benefits package but low pay at Yelp, a second job, especially one with some good cash tips, would be absolutely perfect. 

As far as college costs go, icky old state schools do exist.  Let's not pretend that everyone deserves or needs to go to Harvard.  I just checked in-state tuition for my alma mater (Oregon State) and it's around $10K right now.  It was around $4K when I attended 1996-2001.  So it is more, inflation-adjusted, but not insanely out of reach.

And to her comment about maybe seeming entitled if she basically wants to make a living wage while living where she wants and doing what she wants... yep, that's pretty much the definition of entitlement.

merula

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #103 on: February 24, 2016, 12:24:17 PM »
I'm 30. I'm a millennial, by the standard definitions, but I'm also old enough to have gotten past a lot of the challenges that face recent grads.

People graduating today got different messages about college and debt than their parents did. They are being told "You have to go to college or you're never going to make anything of yourself" and "Just get a degree, it doesn't matter what" and "Student loan debt is good debt." That is bad advice.

People graduating today also face a different job market for college grads than their parents did. Having a degree no longer necessarily leads to a job that justifies the investment.

People graduating today paid higher tuition, in real terms, and have higher debt on average, in real terms, than their parents did.

These things matter, and they make a difference. It's not enough to say "Work your way through college!" and "Entry-level jobs were never too good for me!" when the former isn't a practical solution in most cases, and the latter ignores the changes in what "entry-level with a college degree" means.

Those are the real challenges millennials face. The following are not real challenges, they are challenges created by millennials (and not just Talia Jane, these are common things I see among my peers) for themselves:
  • I can't live in the highest COL city in the country AND live alone AND work at a job that pays lower than average because I think it's a good opportunity.
  • I can't afford to have a pre-paid cell phone bill with a major carrier.
  • I can't afford to drive my car to work in a HCOL area that attempts to restrict driving in the city center via tolls.
  • I can't write anything I want on the internet and expect to keep my job.
  • I can't figure out that a $20 copay for health coverage is an amazing deal.
  • I can't maintain my feelings of superiority over people who work in retail.

GoingConcern

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #104 on: February 24, 2016, 12:28:51 PM »
I'm 30. I'm a millennial, by the standard definitions, but I'm also old enough to have gotten past a lot of the challenges that face recent grads.

People graduating today got different messages about college and debt than their parents did. They are being told "You have to go to college or you're never going to make anything of yourself" and "Just get a degree, it doesn't matter what" and "Student loan debt is good debt." That is bad advice.

People graduating today also face a different job market for college grads than their parents did. Having a degree no longer necessarily leads to a job that justifies the investment.

People graduating today paid higher tuition, in real terms, and have higher debt on average, in real terms, than their parents did.

These things matter, and they make a difference. It's not enough to say "Work your way through college!" and "Entry-level jobs were never too good for me!" when the former isn't a practical solution in most cases, and the latter ignores the changes in what "entry-level with a college degree" means.

Those are the real challenges millennials face. The following are not real challenges, they are challenges created by millennials (and not just Talia Jane, these are common things I see among my peers) for themselves:
  • I can't live in the highest COL city in the country AND live alone AND work at a job that pays lower than average because I think it's a good opportunity.
  • I can't afford to have a pre-paid cell phone bill with a major carrier.
  • I can't afford to drive my car to work in a HCOL area that attempts to restrict driving in the city center via tolls.
  • I can't write anything I want on the internet and expect to keep my job.
  • I can't figure out that a $20 copay for health coverage is an amazing deal.
  • I can't maintain my feelings of superiority over people who work in retail.

Well said. This is what I was trying to get at.

MrsPete

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #105 on: February 24, 2016, 12:35:28 PM »
I think you may be comparing the people of an older generation today to where you are today. I'm of a previous generation (gen X) and yes, I can afford all of those things. But I couldn't when I was fresh out of college. I faced the same struggles you do. But after working for 25+ years, I am now at my max earning potential and have saved enough  to where I can afford more. I promise you, I didn't have a gravy train when I was in my twenties. In fact I was in debt and living in a shitty apartment with a crappy car.
Absolutely true.  My first apartment was a two-bedroom, and five people lived in it.  At one point I was moving a light bulb from the lamp in the bedroom to the lamp in the living room.  I've walked around with holes in my shoes.  Yeah, college was cheaper for us, but minimum wage was 3.35/hour, and everyone worked at some awful jobs during college to avoid loans.  That list could go on.  Yes, jobs were easier to get when I finished college, but we bought houses at 10% interest.  And today's just-out-of-college crew has some benefits that they don't stop to acknowledge -- probably because we don't really appreciate what we've always had; for example, do you really stop to appreciate indoor plumbing and electricity -- a few generations ago, people really did because they'd lived without those things:  Similarly, today's young people don't really stop to appreciate the internet, more casual dress codes (that cost less!), greater personal freedom for minorities and people other than heterosexuals.  Details vary, but the Mils aren't all that different from previous generations. 

Maybe this happened to you too, but I think the difference is that we are bombarded with constant messages about needing to get a degree ... Consumer debt is regarded as trivial or even worse as a status symbol.
That go-to-college pressure was around in the 80s too, though the pressure to attend private colleges or to have "the college experience" wasn't so strong.  I do agree that society in general has "decided" that debt is okay.  That was not the general feeling when I was in college -- I was genuinely afraid of debt, never being sure that tomorrow would be better than today.

I strongly disagree.

There's no way I would go back to the past, and that standard of living.  Our standard today is so much higher than anyone's, ever.
I also disagree. 

I was raised in a house without air conditioning.  I learned to type on a manual typewriter (anyone remember numbering a paper 1-33, then 33-1 to include footnotes on your research paper?).  Soda was served only at birthdays and other special occasions.  I never really got into drinking alcohol (or even coffee) because I couldn't afford it when I was younger, and I never developed the habit.  When I went away to college, I didn't have a phone; I don't mean I had no cell phone -- I mean I had to go downstairs to the dorm lobby with a handful of change to make a call.  When I was a kid, we had two pair of jeans every fall, and in the spring they were cut off into shorts.  We had one TV in our house:  a 13" black and white model; of course, we only had four channels.  When we got together with our cousins, bags of hand-me-downs were passed around; being the smallest girl, I often had the most clothes.  No one I knew took cruises or vacations that required a plane ticket.  No stores were open past 9:00 pm.  Teens all had part time jobs, and they were actually expected to save that money for college.  Fast food was a rarity; restaurant meals were rarer still -- when I was a kid, we ate out maybe twice year.  Christmas presents tended towards the practical; for example, a new set of sheets. 

Yes, like a previous poster, my family was poor, but most of my friends weren't, and although they had more than two pair of jeans, most of the above was true for them too.  My best friend was solidly middle class and shared a tiny bedroom with her brother AND sister. 

Do you really want to argue that today's young people have a lower standard of living? 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 12:40:41 PM by MrsPete »

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #106 on: February 24, 2016, 12:41:33 PM »
The problem I have with this young lady is that she had only worked at Yelp a very short time.  Yes, she has to put in one year before moving on to a different job.  Most companies have this rule.  Suck it up for one year and then start applying for better jobs that pay more money. 

She is not special and she needs to pay her dues.

Exactly... she knew what she was getting into (in addition to what she was going to get paid). So why complain about it?! Likely the naivety of people who don't consider cost of living in relation to their job.... but it's hard to believe that would be something she wouldn't have known moving to the Bay Area...

I agree that this is what is missing.  Where is the narrative of "work your way up from the mail room."  Tweeting and making memes doesn't even seem like a job to me, but then, I'm an old fuddy duddy.  With lots of people being pushed towards college, well, a plain old college degree doesn't make you such a special snowflake, so surprise, you've got to work your way up from the mail room just like everyone else.

I really don't get why she wouldn't take a second job.  Apparently her freelancing is really special but not paying the bills?  It seems like with the great benefits package but low pay at Yelp, a second job, especially one with some good cash tips, would be absolutely perfect. 

As far as college costs go, icky old state schools do exist.  Let's not pretend that everyone deserves or needs to go to Harvard.  I just checked in-state tuition for my alma mater (Oregon State) and it's around $10K right now.  It was around $4K when I attended 1996-2001.  So it is more, inflation-adjusted, but not insanely out of reach.

And to her comment about maybe seeming entitled if she basically wants to make a living wage while living where she wants and doing what she wants... yep, that's pretty much the definition of entitlement.

Yea, she must have been in denial about needing to get a second job to supplement a $12/hr job in order to live in the Bay Area. Maybe she thought simply working at Yelp, outside of the minuscule pay, would somehow allow for her needs to be met? The math isn't quite adding up here. She may be depressed but this seems more like a "1+1=2" type of problem. Complaining that "1+1=2" isn't going to change the fact that 1+1=2.   

arebelspy

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #107 on: February 24, 2016, 12:43:30 PM »
The part I haven't seen answered (someone correct me if it was posted somewhere) is... how long had she been at Yelp?

Was she close to her one year, and getting to move up?  In which case, it's silly that she posted this now, being so close to the job she wanted.

Had she just started, so she had a year to go? In which case, it's silly that she posted this now, having just started this job!

;)
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jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #108 on: February 24, 2016, 12:44:34 PM »
I'm 30. I'm a millennial, by the standard definitions, but I'm also old enough to have gotten past a lot of the challenges that face recent grads.

People graduating today got different messages about college and debt than their parents did. They are being told "You have to go to college or you're never going to make anything of yourself" and "Just get a degree, it doesn't matter what" and "Student loan debt is good debt." That is bad advice.

People graduating today also face a different job market for college grads than their parents did. Having a degree no longer necessarily leads to a job that justifies the investment.

People graduating today paid higher tuition, in real terms, and have higher debt on average, in real terms, than their parents did.

These things matter, and they make a difference. It's not enough to say "Work your way through college!" and "Entry-level jobs were never too good for me!" when the former isn't a practical solution in most cases, and the latter ignores the changes in what "entry-level with a college degree" means.

Those are the real challenges millennials face. The following are not real challenges, they are challenges created by millennials (and not just Talia Jane, these are common things I see among my peers) for themselves:
  • I can't live in the highest COL city in the country AND live alone AND work at a job that pays lower than average because I think it's a good opportunity.
  • I can't afford to have a pre-paid cell phone bill with a major carrier.
  • I can't afford to drive my car to work in a HCOL area that attempts to restrict driving in the city center via tolls.
  • I can't write anything I want on the internet and expect to keep my job.
  • I can't figure out that a $20 copay for health coverage is an amazing deal.
  • I can't maintain my feelings of superiority over people who work in retail.

I'm thinking some of these "millenials" yearn for the "I got a job as a software engineer at Google straight out of college" thing. And "if they can do it so can I" without realizing that most companies *aren't* Google (or are going to pay you like they do at Google). It's an infectious disease of sorts, this whole concept of entitlement.

charis

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #109 on: February 24, 2016, 12:48:47 PM »
To add to a previous data point, my Boomer parents:
-An engineer and a teacher
-Still live in the modest 3 bedroom, 1.5 that I was born in. Before that is was apartments with many roommates.
-Took us camping/hiking and on yearly trips to the rustic family cottage owned by my grandparents (where my parents honeymooned incidentally) when I was a kid
-Drove beaters and hand-me-down cars from my grandparents
-Had one old TV, no cable, finally got an answering machine when cellphones were coming out.
-lived on one income and saved the other (except during a prolonged period of unemployment)

Yes they did not have any student loans to speak of, but they had no family help.  It's only when they reached their 50's that they started eating out regularly and taking expensive vacations, buying new instead of used cars.  In fact, the overspending they do now is nothing like the childhood I remember.

For us, a teacher and lawyer, who live in a modest 3-br, 1.5 bath house, who go camping/hiking and go to the family cottage.  Aside from inflated COL/income, the only real difference is our student loans and traveling a bit more often on credit card points.  My parents were probably more frugal, but they also chose to shell out for private school.

Many of my friends in their early 30s are onto their second homes, remodeling their kitchens, buy/leasing luxury vehicles.  I have no idea where they are getting this sense of entitlement.  Most of our parents never lived like that in their early 30s, even the objectively wealthy ones still drove cars into the ground and took modest once yearly vacations.

I got a job offer in NYC when I graduated at a non profit - while offering me the position, the director said "you'll have to get a second job."  I turned it down, moved back to my small hometown, worked two jobs (journal production and waitressing), and lived with 3 roommates to pay off my undergrad loans.

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #110 on: February 24, 2016, 12:50:52 PM »
The part I haven't seen answered (someone correct me if it was posted somewhere) is... how long had she been at Yelp?

Was she close to her one year, and getting to move up?  In which case, it's silly that she posted this now, being so close to the job she wanted.

Had she just started, so she had a year to go? In which case, it's silly that she posted this now, having just started this job!

;)

I'd like to know as well... she does allude to it here though:

""[Do] you know what the average retention rate of your lowest employees (like myself) are? Because I havenít been here very long, but it seems like every week the faces change."

So it doesn't sound like it was for that long in the context of the year's worth of grunt work she needed to do to transfer over. It seems things were worse than she was expecting and she A) wasn't prepared for it and B) probably didn't ask many questions to reveal that this wasn't going to be as rosy as she thought. Now, part of that could be to the fault of Yelp in the case that they perhaps didn't explain to her the situation. But it seems like they did, which makes me wonder about her situation.

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #111 on: February 24, 2016, 12:57:15 PM »
On a side note: I guess she was smart not to reveal her real name. Assuming nobody ever finds out, including future potential employers, she might have an even better chance at getting hired elsewhere. Thing is, if she carries around the burden of complaining with her, it won't bode well for her either way.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 12:59:32 PM by jplee3 »

monstermonster

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #112 on: February 24, 2016, 12:58:03 PM »
I'm a millennial who lived in/worked with people Real Poverty. Both the american type of Real Poverty and the global Real Real Poverty in rural India. This girl is not living in Real Poverty. She's living in a version of it that's the toughest type of poverty she's ever known, and the pain of that situation hurts. Without skills or experience in living in poverty, this is a real experience for her.

This girl has great points about needing to pay a living wage for a tech company- but she also has a strong sense of entitlement. 1 year of a full-time benefited job with free food before you can try to transfer to a better paying job? How is that nose-to-grindstone agonizing? She has HEALTH INSURANCE. I worked 10 years of my adult life before I got health insurance, and that's the case for many people I know that graduated in the past decade.

Yeah, college was cheaper for us, but minimum wage was 3.35/hour, and everyone worked at some awful jobs during college to avoid loans.
I agree with most of the things you are saying, but I want to point out that $3.35/hr, indexed for inflation, is higher than the current minimum wage. Remember real wage.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 01:00:57 PM by monstermonster »

golden1

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #113 on: February 24, 2016, 01:28:53 PM »
Quote
Without skills or experience in living in poverty, this is a real experience for her.

This is a legit argument.  Many of these entitled millenials may not really be poor in the real sense, but they are feeling real deprivation compared to a) how they were brought up, and b) how they expected to live.  That is as much their parents fault as their own.  They were essentially thrown into life without the skill to navigate it effectively.  Now they get to learn the hard way.  This could have been prevented.

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #114 on: February 24, 2016, 01:30:29 PM »
This girl has great points about needing to pay a living wage for a tech company- but she also has a strong sense of entitlement. 1 year of a full-time benefited job with free food before you can try to transfer to a better paying job? How is that nose-to-grindstone agonizing? She has HEALTH INSURANCE. I worked 10 years of my adult life before I got health insurance, and that's the case for many people I know that graduated in the past decade.

Apparently, Yelp's solution to pay a living wage to its entry-level employees is to open up offices in LCOL areas (e.g. Arizona). But if they're intending to keep entry-level employees in the Bay Area, they should probably pay them a little bit more. On the other hand, they probably feel like there are enough desperate people (who won't publicly complain) in the Bay Area who will work 2-3 jobs and gladly take this as one of them.

merula

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #115 on: February 24, 2016, 01:30:42 PM »
I'm thinking some of these "millenials" yearn for the "I got a job as a software engineer at Google straight out of college" thing. And "if they can do it so can I" without realizing that most companies *aren't* Google (or are going to pay you like they do at Google). It's an infectious disease of sorts, this whole concept of entitlement.

I've gotta tell you, the concept of millennial entitlement is a MAJOR pet peeve of mine. Entitlement is not limited to those born between 1980 and 2004. If you doubt this, please read the Overheard At Work and Overheard On Facebook threads in their entirety.

Millennials were told that they needed to get a college degree so they can get a job that isn't flipping burgers*. And then, once they graduated, the only jobs they could get were flipping burgers, and they were called "entitled" because they don't want these jobs that their parents and teachers told them they wouldn't have to do if they got a college degree.

That's not "entitlement", that's anger at being lied to. At getting really bad advice.

(*By flipping burgers I mean any job with low advancement potential that does not require a degree.)

I think there's also a confirmation bias at work here. You see the 22 year olds who are complaining on the internet that they can't pay rent because their lattes and iPhones are too expensive, and you think "another entitled millennial". But you don't look at me (30 year old, mother, working for the company for 10 years, with a healthy savings rate) and think "another responsible millennial."

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #116 on: February 24, 2016, 01:40:23 PM »
I'm thinking some of these "millenials" yearn for the "I got a job as a software engineer at Google straight out of college" thing. And "if they can do it so can I" without realizing that most companies *aren't* Google (or are going to pay you like they do at Google). It's an infectious disease of sorts, this whole concept of entitlement.

I've gotta tell you, the concept of millennial entitlement is a MAJOR pet peeve of mine. Entitlement is not limited to those born between 1980 and 2004. If you doubt this, please read the Overheard At Work and Overheard On Facebook threads in their entirety.

Millennials were told that they needed to get a college degree so they can get a job that isn't flipping burgers*. And then, once they graduated, the only jobs they could get were flipping burgers, and they were called "entitled" because they don't want these jobs that their parents and teachers told them they wouldn't have to do if they got a college degree.

That's not "entitlement", that's anger at being lied to. At getting really bad advice.

(*By flipping burgers I mean any job with low advancement potential that does not require a degree.)

I think there's also a confirmation bias at work here. You see the 22 year olds who are complaining on the internet that they can't pay rent because their lattes and iPhones are too expensive, and you think "another entitled millennial". But you don't look at me (30 year old, mother, working for the company for 10 years, with a healthy savings rate) and think "another responsible millennial."

Exactly, you're considered to be one of the "lucky few" and "rarities" and most people also wouldn't call you a "millenial" either (there's so much debate and denial around the topic of who are considered to be "millenials" anyway - if you call a 20-something year old who is really well-off but spends a boatload of money because they can afford it a "millenial" they might get pretty upset at you. LOL)

I agree with you about getting bad advice from parents (who tell their kids college is a must). College can certainly help but you still need to get your crap together when it comes down to getting into the workforce! And that might mean paying your dues whether or not you like it. My wife's cousin, who graduated from USC, had much of this sense of entitlement upon finishing school and trying to get into the workforce. He thought he should have easily been able to land a full-time job at one of the big 4 with his econ degree and make $60k right out of the gates. Sure, USC is prestigious and is a great school to go to for the education and connections but not everyone who went there is going to have it easy. The only way you're gonna "easily" get a job like that straight out of school is A) if you're ridiculously smart or can BS your way through interviews or B) you worked an internship the better half of your time while in school and did exceedingly well (or a combination of both). This guy was more of a party-animal... he took an internship [low-paying] at KPMG post-graduation and then worked a few other places but he seemed bitter and entitled about it the whole time. I guess he ended up paying his dues cause now he's with a good-sized chain retailer but others suffered along the way at his expense (namely, when he stayed with my in-laws rent-free AND they gave him money that he said he'd pay back and hasn't fully to this day - it tarnished the relationship with my wife and brother-in-law. and his mother only enables him - she paid my in-laws back on his behalf but without him knowing, then told my in-laws that if he actually pays them back just give her the money) 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 01:53:08 PM by jplee3 »

mm1970

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #117 on: February 24, 2016, 01:51:11 PM »
I think that's exactly why people like Talia Jane feel entitled to stuff like fancy restaurant meals, nice alcohol, and other luxuries that are now seen as "normal". I don't know about other people, but they certainly weren't the norm in my parents day, or even in my childhood. They were stuff that rich people did. But it seems like there's been a standard of living inflation across all classes and income levels. One of my best childhood friends, whose husband works a solid blue-collar job, just went on vacation in Hawaii. When we were kids, nobody we knew had ever been to Hawaii.

So now people who don't do these things feel like they're "poor", when twenty years ago it was the norm.

I don't agree with her mentality but do you really think these things were not normal in older generations? 20 year olds in the 80s didn't go out to bar and restaurants with their friends ? 


Look at the median rent prices for San Fransisco adjusted for inflation:



Granted much of the rise is due to simple supply and demand and the tech/Silicon Valley boom has increased prices rapidly but I would bet across the United States wages have not kept up with housing costs, education and healthcare costs.

She deserves blame for her own life choices but there was a time when an English degree would land you a solid job. Today with dying printed media and the oversupply of college graduates it will land you a minimum wage job.

1.  Well, yes, 20 year olds went out with their friends.  But not often.  As in, when I was in college, I did not eat out.  I maybe went out with my friends to restaurants a few times a year.  And bars?  Well I wasn't 21 until senior year. I maybe went out a couple of times a month (of course, frat parties were an option), at 2 beers a pop, so $6.  When I graduated and got a "real job", that didn't change either.  I ate at home, and went out very occasionally.  It was much more common for people to have parties at their rented houses or apartments, and BYOB.  I think I went out with a friend 3 weekends in a row once.  My older sister (who graduated in the early 80s) went out with her friends sometimes too, but more often than not, they got a six pack of beer and went to someone's house, or to the woods, partying in the back of someone's pickup.

"These days", hey I can't speak for all the young ones - I'm an engineer, and I've found that most of the 20-somethings that I've worked with graduated into a dismal job market, so they actually brought their lunches and didn't go out often either.  As opposed to the 30-somethings.  I'd say though that some of the 20-somethings that I know eat out a lot more often.  They buy lunch 2-5 times a week and go out to bars more than once a week, and they aren't drinking $3 beers (now let's call it $6 beers), they are drinking $10-15 mixed drinks.  As a comparison, I started going out more for lunch and for beers AFTER I started making more money.  So, let's just say that 2-4 years in to my career, after college, I started going out more.  At my entry level job?  No.  No I didn't go out much at all.

2.  Nobody's arguing this.  At least I'm not.  Heck the "Hard to feel sorry for these people" thread is literally FULL of me saying this.  That over the years we went from "a degree is a ticket to a good job, and any degree" to "you need a degree to do a job that didn't require it, but you get to go into debt first, yay!"

However, I cannot recall any time in my life when you didn't have to "pay your dues", degree or not.  I have an engineering degree, and had to "pay my dues" (granted, in the US military).  The other engineers I know had to pay their dues.  The English majors I know have decent jobs in education, or business, but they also had to "pay their dues" as low income employees for a year or two, just to get experience.  It's kind of a "thing".

monstermonster

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #118 on: February 24, 2016, 01:53:09 PM »
But you don't look at me (30 year old, mother, working for the company for 10 years, with a healthy savings rate) and think "another responsible millennial."
Seriously! I see this all the time. I'm 28-years-old, didn't go to college until I was 22 because I was working grocery jobs + farm laboring + 2 years of Americorps in order to go to college debt-free. You don't hear about those of us that got fancy private school liberal arts degrees and stayed out of debt by commuting 2 hours each day and working 30+ hours a week while taking a full load. You don't hear about those of us working for median wage who are SO HAPPY we make $19/hr and have health insurance and save half our income and don't take out debt and cook all our meals at home and don't upgrade everytime the newest iThingamagig comes out. Because that's a boring narrative. Millennials are all entitled, obviously. Except those we kick out of the millennial category because they're not.

mm1970

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #119 on: February 24, 2016, 01:57:56 PM »
I'm a millennial who lived in/worked with people Real Poverty. Both the american type of Real Poverty and the global Real Real Poverty in rural India. This girl is not living in Real Poverty. She's living in a version of it that's the toughest type of poverty she's ever known, and the pain of that situation hurts. Without skills or experience in living in poverty, this is a real experience for her.

This girl has great points about needing to pay a living wage for a tech company- but she also has a strong sense of entitlement. 1 year of a full-time benefited job with free food before you can try to transfer to a better paying job? How is that nose-to-grindstone agonizing? She has HEALTH INSURANCE. I worked 10 years of my adult life before I got health insurance, and that's the case for many people I know that graduated in the past decade.

Yeah, college was cheaper for us, but minimum wage was 3.35/hour, and everyone worked at some awful jobs during college to avoid loans.
I agree with most of the things you are saying, but I want to point out that $3.35/hr, indexed for inflation, is higher than the current minimum wage. Remember real wage.


Am I reading this wrong then?  $3.35 an hour in 1988, looks like it's not higher than the current minimum wage?

mm1970

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #120 on: February 24, 2016, 02:00:55 PM »
But you don't look at me (30 year old, mother, working for the company for 10 years, with a healthy savings rate) and think "another responsible millennial."
Seriously! I see this all the time. I'm 28-years-old, didn't go to college until I was 22 because I was working grocery jobs + farm laboring + 2 years of Americorps in order to go to college debt-free. You don't hear about those of us that got fancy private school liberal arts degrees and stayed out of debt by commuting 2 hours each day and working 30+ hours a week while taking a full load. You don't hear about those of us working for median wage who are SO HAPPY we make $19/hr and have health insurance and save half our income and don't take out debt and cook all our meals at home and don't upgrade everytime the newest iThingamagig comes out. Because that's a boring narrative. Millennials are all entitled, obviously. Except those we kick out of the millennial category because they're not.
Hm...well maybe you don't "hear about it" in the mainstream media, but most "millenials" I know personally are more like you guys.

GoingConcern

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #121 on: February 24, 2016, 02:08:21 PM »



http://www.cbpp.org/sites/default/files/styles/downsample150to92/public/atoms/files/5-12-15sfp-f8.png?itok=uYX7OG-A

The numbers all seem to indicate that education costs have skyrocketed and wages have not kept with education and most other costs. Millennials today are taking jobs that pay less while coming out of school with more debt and higher costs.
 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 02:12:17 PM by GoingConcern »

merula

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #122 on: February 24, 2016, 02:13:44 PM »
But you don't look at me (30 year old, mother, working for the company for 10 years, with a healthy savings rate) and think "another responsible millennial."
Seriously! I see this all the time. I'm 28-years-old, didn't go to college until I was 22 because I was working grocery jobs + farm laboring + 2 years of Americorps in order to go to college debt-free. You don't hear about those of us that got fancy private school liberal arts degrees and stayed out of debt by commuting 2 hours each day and working 30+ hours a week while taking a full load. You don't hear about those of us working for median wage who are SO HAPPY we make $19/hr and have health insurance and save half our income and don't take out debt and cook all our meals at home and don't upgrade everytime the newest iThingamagig comes out. Because that's a boring narrative. Millennials are all entitled, obviously. Except those we kick out of the millennial category because they're not.
Hm...well maybe you don't "hear about it" in the mainstream media, but most "millenials" I know personally are more like you guys.

Mainstream media, sure, but also here. The thing I was specifically responding to was:
I'm thinking some of these "millenials" yearn for the "I got a job as a software engineer at Google straight out of college" thing. And "if they can do it so can I" without realizing that most companies *aren't* Google (or are going to pay you like they do at Google). It's an infectious disease of sorts, this whole concept of entitlement.

It happens here. It happens in the media. It happens elsewhere on the internet.

It happens in real life when I do something "millennial-ish" and get judged. (Buying $4 cupcakes from the fancypants cupcake store got a comment... they didn't even shut up when I told them it was for my CHILD'S BIRTHDAY.)

HairyUpperLip

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #123 on: February 24, 2016, 02:23:07 PM »
1.  Well, yes, 20 year olds went out with their friends.  But not often.  As in, when I was in college, I did not eat out.  I maybe went out with my friends to restaurants a few times a year. 

Hmm, I thought everyone your age spent all of their time at restaurants after school....


GoingConcern

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #124 on: February 24, 2016, 02:47:41 PM »
I think that's exactly why people like Talia Jane feel entitled to stuff like fancy restaurant meals, nice alcohol, and other luxuries that are now seen as "normal". I don't know about other people, but they certainly weren't the norm in my parents day, or even in my childhood. They were stuff that rich people did. But it seems like there's been a standard of living inflation across all classes and income levels. One of my best childhood friends, whose husband works a solid blue-collar job, just went on vacation in Hawaii. When we were kids, nobody we knew had ever been to Hawaii.

So now people who don't do these things feel like they're "poor", when twenty years ago it was the norm.

I don't agree with her mentality but do you really think these things were not normal in older generations? 20 year olds in the 80s didn't go out to bar and restaurants with their friends ? 


Look at the median rent prices for San Fransisco adjusted for inflation:



Granted much of the rise is due to simple supply and demand and the tech/Silicon Valley boom has increased prices rapidly but I would bet across the United States wages have not kept up with housing costs, education and healthcare costs.

She deserves blame for her own life choices but there was a time when an English degree would land you a solid job. Today with dying printed media and the oversupply of college graduates it will land you a minimum wage job.

1.  Well, yes, 20 year olds went out with their friends.  But not often.  As in, when I was in college, I did not eat out.  I maybe went out with my friends to restaurants a few times a year.  And bars?  Well I wasn't 21 until senior year. I maybe went out a couple of times a month (of course, frat parties were an option), at 2 beers a pop, so $6.  When I graduated and got a "real job", that didn't change either.  I ate at home, and went out very occasionally.  It was much more common for people to have parties at their rented houses or apartments, and BYOB.  I think I went out with a friend 3 weekends in a row once.  My older sister (who graduated in the early 80s) went out with her friends sometimes too, but more often than not, they got a six pack of beer and went to someone's house, or to the woods, partying in the back of someone's pickup.

"These days", hey I can't speak for all the young ones - I'm an engineer, and I've found that most of the 20-somethings that I've worked with graduated into a dismal job market, so they actually brought their lunches and didn't go out often either.  As opposed to the 30-somethings.  I'd say though that some of the 20-somethings that I know eat out a lot more often.  They buy lunch 2-5 times a week and go out to bars more than once a week, and they aren't drinking $3 beers (now let's call it $6 beers), they are drinking $10-15 mixed drinks.  As a comparison, I started going out more for lunch and for beers AFTER I started making more money.  So, let's just say that 2-4 years in to my career, after college, I started going out more.  At my entry level job?  No.  No I didn't go out much at all.

2.  Nobody's arguing this.  At least I'm not.  Heck the "Hard to feel sorry for these people" thread is literally FULL of me saying this.  That over the years we went from "a degree is a ticket to a good job, and any degree" to "you need a degree to do a job that didn't require it, but you get to go into debt first, yay!"

However, I cannot recall any time in my life when you didn't have to "pay your dues", degree or not.  I have an engineering degree, and had to "pay my dues" (granted, in the US military).  The other engineers I know had to pay their dues.  The English majors I know have decent jobs in education, or business, but they also had to "pay their dues" as low income employees for a year or two, just to get experience.  It's kind of a "thing".

My goal was not to turn this into a Millenial vs "insert" generation fight.   It is of my opinion that millennials are really not that different from the other generations in terms of consumption.  IMO our whole nation has an issue of mass consumption led by our government that has indebted us with 18 trillion dollars (just a FYI the government doesn't consists of millennials :D)

My general point is that millennials today face harsher economic dynamics compared to most other generations on average. I graduated from college 6 years ago during the financial crisis and I believ I am in a better position than the millennials that will be graduating this spring.

monstermonster

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #125 on: February 24, 2016, 02:50:41 PM »
Am I reading this wrong then?  $3.35 an hour in 1988, looks like it's not higher than the current minimum wage?
You're reading it right - in 1986 it started switching and is almost equivalent to today's minimum wage. $3.35 in the years before, however, was higher. I don't know the precise year being referred to, but I just want to make sure that people recognize saying "$3.35/hr" needs to account for inflation!

galliver

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #126 on: February 24, 2016, 03:12:45 PM »
I'm 30. I'm a millennial, by the standard definitions, but I'm also old enough to have gotten past a lot of the challenges that face recent grads.

People graduating today got different messages about college and debt than their parents did. They are being told "You have to go to college or you're never going to make anything of yourself" and "Just get a degree, it doesn't matter what" and "Student loan debt is good debt." That is bad advice.

People graduating today also face a different job market for college grads than their parents did. Having a degree no longer necessarily leads to a job that justifies the investment.

People graduating today paid higher tuition, in real terms, and have higher debt on average, in real terms, than their parents did.

These things matter, and they make a difference. It's not enough to say "Work your way through college!" and "Entry-level jobs were never too good for me!" when the former isn't a practical solution in most cases, and the latter ignores the changes in what "entry-level with a college degree" means.

Those are the real challenges millennials face. The following are not real challenges, they are challenges created by millennials (and not just Talia Jane, these are common things I see among my peers) for themselves:
  • I can't live in the highest COL city in the country AND live alone AND work at a job that pays lower than average because I think it's a good opportunity.
  • I can't afford to have a pre-paid cell phone bill with a major carrier.
  • I can't afford to drive my car to work in a HCOL area that attempts to restrict driving in the city center via tolls.
  • I can't write anything I want on the internet and expect to keep my job.
  • I can't figure out that a $20 copay for health coverage is an amazing deal.
  • I can't maintain my feelings of superiority over people who work in retail.

Everything you said.

There's a false dichotomy that's often set up between individual agency(/bootstraps) and structural issues in society/government, etc. It's either "oh, but you're making bad choices and if you didn't you'd be doing fine there are no structural issues" or "we have all these structural issues, it's impossible to get ahead."  But it's really not a dichotomy; we can talk about both!

There *is* a housing-supply problem in the SFBA, cost of higher education *is* going up (significantly) faster than inflation, wages aren't keeping up with costs/rent in HCOLAs generally (let's leave the "entitled millennials" out of this and realize every community needs teachers and EMTs and bus drivers; and they need places to live less than 3 hours from work, too), the tax structure has changed *massively* since the 40s-70s when so many boomers "worked their way through college" and "never got anything handed to them," income inequality, campaign financing, climate change, and so forth. There are Real Issues out there, and it's disingenuous to ignore that by just looking at individual choices.

However, most of us still have many choices in how to structure our lives, and the presence of these issues doesn't relieve us from the responsibility of making good ones in the situation(s) we find ourselves in, even if that entails enduring some form of hardship. Particularly, for someone young, educated, and child-free!

mm1970

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #127 on: February 24, 2016, 03:24:19 PM »
1.  Well, yes, 20 year olds went out with their friends.  But not often.  As in, when I was in college, I did not eat out.  I maybe went out with my friends to restaurants a few times a year. 

Hmm, I thought everyone your age spent all of their time at restaurants after school....



Hm...sadly, I'm a *tad* too old for this show.  I googled it, see that it was on from 1989 to 1993, and about high school students.  I started college in 1988, and probably would not have been caught dead watching a TV show about high school.

Of course, I didn't have a TV in college anyway - if you wanted to watch TV, you went to the dorm "lounge" and everyone had to agree.

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #128 on: February 24, 2016, 05:25:29 PM »
1.  Well, yes, 20 year olds went out with their friends.  But not often.  As in, when I was in college, I did not eat out.  I maybe went out with my friends to restaurants a few times a year. 

Hmm, I thought everyone your age spent all of their time at restaurants after school....



Hm...sadly, I'm a *tad* too old for this show.  I googled it, see that it was on from 1989 to 1993, and about high school students.  I started college in 1988, and probably would not have been caught dead watching a TV show about high school.

Of course, I didn't have a TV in college anyway - if you wanted to watch TV, you went to the dorm "lounge" and everyone had to agree.

How about this one:

mm1970

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #129 on: February 24, 2016, 05:26:59 PM »
Ha ha closer!  But at least I was only watching reruns. :)

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #130 on: February 24, 2016, 05:42:04 PM »
1.  Well, yes, 20 year olds went out with their friends.  But not often.  As in, when I was in college, I did not eat out.  I maybe went out with my friends to restaurants a few times a year. 

Hmm, I thought everyone your age spent all of their time at restaurants after school....



Hm...sadly, I'm a *tad* too old for this show.  I googled it, see that it was on from 1989 to 1993, and about high school students.  I started college in 1988, and probably would not have been caught dead watching a TV show about high school.

Of course, I didn't have a TV in college anyway - if you wanted to watch TV, you went to the dorm "lounge" and everyone had to agree.

How about this one:


It looks like they just did some light remodeling on the same set for those.
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desk_jockey

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #131 on: February 24, 2016, 06:50:28 PM »
Millennials were told that they needed to get a college degree so they can get a job that isn't flipping burgers*. And then, once they graduated, the only jobs they could get were flipping burgers, and they were called "entitled" because they don't want these jobs that their parents and teachers told them they wouldn't have to do if they got a college degree.

That's not "entitlement", that's anger at being lied to. At getting really bad advice. 

That's not "being lied to".  That's an good example at conventional wisdom not being able to predict the future.   Their parents and teachers looked to what had happened in the past 20 years, and applied it to the future without considering other effects.  Then people were surprised with effects of globalization, a larger percentage of people getting college degrees, a priority in STEM hiring, etc.   

So you enjoyed yourself at a University that you couldn't afford for 5 years.  Shit happens.  Pick yourself up and move on.   If you haven't started university yet, take a look at what's going on and adapt your plan.

We've all said "life is not fair".  My generation was also told it was entitled for wanting a good job without going to college, "My grandfather retired from the line at Ford, my father will have a Ford full pension when he retires, but all I could get was this lousy unguaranteed job that only has a 401K".  Shit happens.  Pick yourself up and move on.

The biggest difference is to whom the Millenials are complaining.   Before people generally complained to a smaller circle of people with the exception of writing to the editor.   Now people complain to thousands in FB or millions in blogs.  The previous generations aren't used to the form of this generation's complaining or such widespread attention paid to the complaints, so they respond that the Millennials are whiny and self-entitled.   That or maybe they're thinking "you're an adult now, so I don't have to give you any more participation trophies". 



ender

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #132 on: February 24, 2016, 07:59:38 PM »
My point is our generation on average will have a lower standard of living compared to our parents

I strongly disagree.

There's no way I would go back to the past, and that standard of living.  Our standard today is so much higher than anyone's, ever.

I agree with you - our standard of living is much higher. If one was to plan on living like their parents did in their 20s, with the exact luxuries they had, it would be considerably "worse" standard of living.

I would say that "our generation" has much higher expectations for standard of living than our parents did, though.

shelivesthedream

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #133 on: February 25, 2016, 02:28:56 AM »
My point is our generation on average will have a lower standard of living compared to our parents

I strongly disagree.

There's no way I would go back to the past, and that standard of living.  Our standard today is so much higher than anyone's, ever.

I agree with you - our standard of living is much higher. If one was to plan on living like their parents did in their 20s, with the exact luxuries they had, it would be considerably "worse" standard of living.

I would say that "our generation" has much higher expectations for standard of living than our parents did, though.

Perhaps we are going to have a higher objective standard of living than ever before but in fact have a lower standard of happiness. We all have iPhones and use them to make ourselves miserable.

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #134 on: February 25, 2016, 02:59:21 AM »
Perhaps we are going to have a higher objective standard of living than ever before but in fact have a lower standard of happiness. We all have iPhones and use them to make ourselves miserable.

I don't know that we do that either.

I think that's the popular media narrative, but most of the people I know are, generally, happy.  I don't think they're any unhappier than people in the past.
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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #135 on: February 25, 2016, 06:16:59 AM »
It looks like they just did some light remodeling on the same set for those.

lol, yeah it does.

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #136 on: February 25, 2016, 06:46:27 AM »
Wow. I read this post a few days ago and thought it really reminded me of an entitled young woman in my office. She is maybe 26 or 27 and spends most of the day blogging or texting instead of doing her job.

Yesterday, we found out what our raises and bonuses would be for the coming year. Today, she made a public FB post about how little her job pays and how working people are screwed over in this country. Even though she's Facebook friends with the head of our department.

Starting salaries at my job are only around $30K, but our vacation and sick time are, honestly, so generous it's unheard of. And our health insurance is excellent and extremely cheap. This girl was already on very thin ice here and I'm thinking she may have just signed her death warrant.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 06:48:02 AM by Laura82 »

desk_jockey

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #137 on: February 25, 2016, 07:06:40 AM »
In the many publications supporting and criticizing the young lady, this person's response stands out to me:

https://medium.com/@Izhou/to-talia-how-to-live-in-sf-on-17-597-76-a-year-1c6a39a630f6

Quote
  The way I see it, those who are angry feel you havenít truly exhausted the options within your own control before looking externally to criticize others (Yelp, Yelpís CEO Jeremy, etc.)

He then goes on to present reasonable, mustachian advice on a budget to afford to live on her [former] salary, while allocating resources for personal development and growth.

merula

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #138 on: February 25, 2016, 07:43:08 AM »
Millennials were told that they needed to get a college degree so they can get a job that isn't flipping burgers*. And then, once they graduated, the only jobs they could get were flipping burgers, and they were called "entitled" because they don't want these jobs that their parents and teachers told them they wouldn't have to do if they got a college degree.

That's not "entitlement", that's anger at being lied to. At getting really bad advice. 

That's not "being lied to".  That's an good example at conventional wisdom not being able to predict the future.   Their parents and teachers looked to what had happened in the past 20 years, and applied it to the future without considering other effects.  Then people were surprised with effects of globalization, a larger percentage of people getting college degrees, a priority in STEM hiring, etc.   

So you enjoyed yourself at a University that you couldn't afford for 5 years.  Shit happens.  Pick yourself up and move on.   If you haven't started university yet, take a look at what's going on and adapt your plan.

We've all said "life is not fair".  My generation was also told it was entitled for wanting a good job without going to college, "My grandfather retired from the line at Ford, my father will have a Ford full pension when he retires, but all I could get was this lousy unguaranteed job that only has a 401K".  Shit happens.  Pick yourself up and move on.

The biggest difference is to whom the Millenials are complaining.   Before people generally complained to a smaller circle of people with the exception of writing to the editor.   Now people complain to thousands in FB or millions in blogs.  The previous generations aren't used to the form of this generation's complaining or such widespread attention paid to the complaints, so they respond that the Millennials are whiny and self-entitled.   That or maybe they're thinking "you're an adult now, so I don't have to give you any more participation trophies".

It was never true, though. Philosophy grads have always made less than STEM and business majors. And debt is debt, it doesn't become "good" because you spent it on a worthless piece of paper instead of hookers and blow.

And, it's also not limited to advice given to millennials 10-15 years ago. I was in a high school classroom a few weeks ago, and heard the exact same message. I was there to talk about my job and my college experience to a group of students who are on track to be the first in their families to go to college. Their teacher (around 28, by my guess) dismissed their concerns about student loan debt, saying that while he still has student loans, his income minus the loan payments is still higher than it would be if he had never gone to college. And he was not happy about my advice that you have to have a plan that extends past college graduation to make it worthwhile.

Finally, the point a lot of people are making is that it is nearly impossible to graduate with a worthless degree and the accompanying student loan debt and "pick yourself up and move on". The student loan repayments are crushing if you can't find a job that justifies the investment you made.

I'm not saying that millennials don't make mistakes and aren't responsible for their actions. Quite the contrary, if you read my original post here. I'm saying that the invectives hurled at an entire generation are unfounded and particularly insulting to those of us who have avoided those traps and done well for ourselves.

(The silver lining is that as long as I'm part of the generation that's destroying America, I can still consider myself young. When was the last time you heard that the country was going to heck because of the hippies, draft dodgers or disaffected Xers?)

lhamo

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #139 on: February 25, 2016, 07:59:00 AM »
In the many publications supporting and criticizing the young lady, this person's response stands out to me:

https://medium.com/@Izhou/to-talia-how-to-live-in-sf-on-17-597-76-a-year-1c6a39a630f6

Quote
  The way I see it, those who are angry feel you havenít truly exhausted the options within your own control before looking externally to criticize others (Yelp, Yelpís CEO Jeremy, etc.)

He then goes on to present reasonable, mustachian advice on a budget to afford to live on her [former] salary, while allocating resources for personal development and growth.

This dude is awesome!  Nice spreadsheets, too.

No Name Guy

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #140 on: February 25, 2016, 08:00:27 AM »
CHS says all that needs saying to this twit.

http://www.oftwominds.com/blogfeb16/teachable-moment2-16.html

desk_jockey

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #141 on: February 25, 2016, 08:39:41 AM »
I'm saying that the invectives hurled at an entire generation are unfounded and particularly insulting to those of us who have avoided those traps and done well for ourselves.

... When was the last time you heard that the country was going to heck because of the hippies, draft dodgers or disaffected Xers?)

You didn't hear that the country was going to heck because of the hippies, draft dodges and Xers, probably only because you were too young to be around when it was said.  But it was said.  It was said plenty enough and then people moved on, nobody is concerned with draft dodgers at the moment. 

I think youíre being a bit sensitive to the use of the generational descriptions.   Of course for every stereotypical example, one can equally find an exception.   We all know plenty of hardworking, debt-free Millienals that didnít make such obviously stupid mistakes.  These forums here have many.   As I said before, people are adjusting into the new widespread format in which Millennials* are complaining.  (*People use the term in generality and itís much easier to not include a paragraph disclaimer every time to exclude various sub-segments).   

Itís not only negative commentary that Millennials receive; there are plenty of publications that speak praise of the generation.  Take a look at articles on innovation, entrepreneurial ventures and environmentalism to see the positive portrayed. 

The complaints and generalizations are just an expression of the natural friction between generations, and trust me that it wonít be long before your generation will be saying similar things about the next.

monstermonster

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #142 on: February 25, 2016, 09:43:31 AM »
With all this college-bashing, I'm curious how many of you don't actually have a college degree? And if so, are you a straight, white, able-bodied male without a college degree?

I simply ask because even though plenty of people say a college degree is "worthless", I was actually a high school drop out (got a GED) who had many years in the workforce before it became apparent that no matter I would do, I was stonewalled in getting any higher without going to college. There was a ceiling where I couldn't really get any higher without just the "bachelor's in something". You need a bachelor's to become a manager at Walgreens even, which pays $26K/year after 3 months of training.   The only alternative of a good paying job I could find without a college degree was a union electrician, but my size/gender/disability ended up making that a barrier. I would've died waiting to become a postal worker, because even though I got 99th percentile on the postal exam, they hire vets first, so non-vets took forever to get hired. I considered military as an option, but back then they weren't taking gays like me.

I agree that the current student loan debt is unreasonable, but there is all the statistical evidence in the world that a college degree DOES improve your lifetime earnings, even when accounting for both opportunity cost and cost of attendance. I agree with the idea that college with a plan on the other side is ideal, but college is a hurdle to NEARLY ANY good paying job these days, especially if you can't do physical work, and especially if you don't come from a position of privilege. At least attending, if not completing.

alewpanda

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #143 on: February 25, 2016, 09:49:59 AM »
 

Attending a private university including room and board today will cost somewhere around $150-$200k. That is an insane amount compared to the  previous generations that could work in between semesters and pay off the majority of their tuition. There is no amount of part time work that could make a dent into this amount today.

[/quote]

Um, what?   6000 x 8 semesters =  48,000.   (that includes room and board -- grad year 2013)

You are talking about some EXTREMELY expensive private colleges.   
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 09:56:56 AM by alewpanda »

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #144 on: February 25, 2016, 11:26:37 AM »
With all this college-bashing, I'm curious how many of you don't actually have a college degree? And if so, are you a straight, white, able-bodied male without a college degree?

I'm a straight, white, able-bodied woman without a college degree. I make more money than my straight, non-white, able-bodied boyfriend who pursued the useless degree route. So you've got a couple data points working against your privilege narrative, in any case.

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #145 on: February 25, 2016, 11:36:16 AM »
An article/post she tweeted:
http://www.moneyaftergraduation.com/2016/02/25/the-bootstrapping-millennial-martyrdom-complex/

And then apparently something she posted probably from being pestered about it:
https://twitter.com/itsa_talia/status/702757498894192642
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 11:39:56 AM by jplee3 »

Josiecat

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #146 on: February 25, 2016, 11:37:54 AM »
I have no college degree and I make six figures as a Project Manager.

monstermonster

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #147 on: February 25, 2016, 11:38:26 AM »
My college was $39,000 attendance cost of tuition/fees per year which sounds batshit crazy, but my annual out-of-pocket cost was $2,000, which was less than if I had started at community college and gone to state school locally. The sticker price at those private schools mean nothing if you come from meager or limited means - they have substantial need-based aid and there's often less competition than there is at schools with higher need populations (like CC) for limited aid packages. My annual aid package was:

$30,000 School Grant (including Americorp award match)
$5,500 Pell Grant
$1,500 Oregon Opportunity Grant
$2,500 in Work-Study
----------------------------------
$39,500 Aid
$2,000 Expected Family Contribution (from me)

My local state school's aid package was $5,500 (the oregon opportunity grant is too competitive to get there), making my cost of attendance $4,500 annually. They also didn't match my Americorps award, meaning that $10,000 scholarship went half as far as far as aid. Plus I got all sorts of benefits from going to a small school, including getting to do paid summer fellowship with the International Monetary Fund and get a fully-covered semester abroad. Every job I've gotten since I finished 3 years ago has been through the tight-knit alumni network. At community college, all the financial aid $$ (including work-study) were gone if you filed your FAFSA after Jan 5th. At my small school, that was not true.

The first two years of out-of-pocket costs were covered by my Americorps Award, meaning I just had to work to pay my living expenses. Yes, $160K is crazy, but the sticker price means very little to real cost of attendance at those private colleges. I wish this information was better disseminated to those from limited means - state school ISN'T always the cheapest option.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 11:41:41 AM by monstermonster »

jeromedawg

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #148 on: February 25, 2016, 12:19:46 PM »
Here's her explanation of why she didn't (or "couldn't") find a roommate:

"Before moving to San Francisco, did you consider that it's one of the most expensive cities in America to settle in?"

"Yep! And I planned in every which way possible to make the most of that. The employee who recommended the job to me—we actually looked at apartments together before I had to move up. He backed out, so I had to find something else. Being brand new to an area with no safety net of close friends or family on top of being a young woman, I didn't feel safe just blindly rooming with someone off Craigslist. So my new plan was to take the cheapest place I could find that would accept my application, befriend someone at work, and have a roommate/move somewhere affordable within three months. But none of my coworkers were going anywhere, so I had to find a new plan."

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/talia-jane-any-voice-is-better-than-silence-fired-yelp-employee-reacts-to-media-backlash


So the "new plan" was to write a public scathing letter to your CEO!? I get it, she wanted to bring out the "big picture" of income inequality or whatever. But apparently, she's playing the sacrificial lamb here. And she also doesn't seem to be very good at planning and researching things...


Oh and this caught my attention too:

"What do you think Yelp should do to improve things? A wage increase? Anything else?"

"They should definitely look into a wage increase, but as I understand it, it's possible that they like the revolving door. They should, at the very least, create channels for people to share how much they're struggling. It's not en vogue with the start-up vibe, but your lowest-rung employees deserve the opportunity to be heard."

The cold harsh reality is: the company is doing what's in *their* best interest; not yours.


And then, what's up with this?:

"I've had a lot of engineers who earn upwards of $100k call me entitled, which has tickled me"

To me, she seems to be, in a passive-aggressive tone, implying that those engineers "don't deserve" their salaries, etc....
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 12:28:25 PM by jplee3 »

Sid Hoffman

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Re: I can't do math, so I wrote a public letter to my CEO and get myself fired!
« Reply #149 on: February 25, 2016, 12:43:19 PM »
The story certainly has legs.  It made the front page of Yahoo today, too.  This is the NY Post story they linked to, which is very critical and written by someone living in NYC, which is another notoriously HCOL area and he has no sympathy for her.  I do feel a little badly for her as it seems that she's a product of her environment and upbringing.  The university she went to and the place she lives are all full of people who are convinced that class warfare is something everybody needs to be fighting for on the front lines.  She just didn't realize that by being white and college educated she is the one who's privileged.