Author Topic: I can't afford to be poor!!  (Read 29216 times)

FatCat

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2015, 07:39:02 AM »
So much truth the the cost of living on the margins.

I was reading a fascinating article in a trade magazine the other day where the argument was that grocery stores shouldn't discount so much, because the people who really take advantage are the ones who could afford to pay more.  But instead we stock up when it's on sale because we have the cashflow (and storage) to do it.  And the people who actually live close to the bone are only buying one because they're out, so they're less able to wait until the sale.

I don't understand why that would mean that groceries shouldn't discount items. The good discounts are there to draw people to the store where it's expected that they will buy other things. It's not to help the poor. They call this a "loss leader" strategy. But actually poor people do buy the items that are one sale. Some people choose what to buy based on the sale. Poor people might not be able to stock up because something is on sale, but it would affect which item they chose to buy.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2015, 03:33:50 PM »
So much truth the the cost of living on the margins.

I was reading a fascinating article in a trade magazine the other day where the argument was that grocery stores shouldn't discount so much, because the people who really take advantage are the ones who could afford to pay more.  But instead we stock up when it's on sale because we have the cashflow (and storage) to do it.  And the people who actually live close to the bone are only buying one because they're out, so they're less able to wait until the sale.

I believe this, but there are certainly exceptions... Mormons come to mind. Many of them keep well-stocked pantries (see The Prudent Homemaker for an example).

Abe

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2015, 04:25:05 PM »
Snacky, I appreciate your insight on this. It must have been very hard in your circumstances. That then leads to the question, if one wishes to address the problem effectively, of what percentage of people living in these deserts have serious mitigating circumstances like yours. If the majority of people are unable to take kids to the store and can't find babysitters then maybe there is a place for delivery services? The cost of these services may be lower than subsidizing a grocery store when there is another less than a mile away. I don't think that having kids in itself is a mitigating circumstance, though. My parents worked long hours and just dragged me to the store as needed; this seems pretty common in my area based on the number of grumpy kids in grocery carts!

Gerard

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #53 on: October 28, 2015, 07:54:19 AM »
You can go to Payless and buy a cheap $20-25 pair of crap shoes, and you couldn't possibly "wear through" them in "a few months."  Hell, you couldn't "wear through them" in 20 years.  They might have holes in the top, they might look like crap, but you won't "wear through them" even if you run a marathon every day.  Even cheap shoes have thick, rubber soles.  You could wear them for years and never wear through them.
I dare say most of you have NEVER "worn through" a pair of shoes (unless you are aged 80+ and remember the days when shoes had thin, leather soles).

Lib, I've never seen cheap shoes with real thick rubber soles. They have a thin rubber (or plastic) coating over a plastic framework. Once that coating wears off, the plastic framework is no longer stable. It buckles and tears, to the point that the shoes quickly become unwearable. When I used to buy cheap Payless shoes, they lasted me about four months.

I'd be happy to get a shoe brand recommendation from you. I would love to buy $20 shoes whose soles last years.

FatCat

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2015, 03:45:05 PM »
I dare say most of you have NEVER "worn through" a pair of shoes (unless you are aged 80+ and remember the days when shoes had thin, leather soles).

I've worn through several pairs of shoes. They were all high heels with super thin soles. They actually had holes in the bottom by the time I was done with them. I think high heels wear out the fastest. I ended up buying some pairs I really liked and having good soles layered onto the cheap soles. Soles on dress shoes are crap.

BlueMR2

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2015, 05:19:23 AM »
I don't wear through my shoes to the point that my socks are touching the ground, but I do wear them until the sole is worn through and it's the padding that's touching the ground.  That's the replacement point because the padding wicks up every bit of moisture and then the shoe falls apart (plus I end up with wet feet).  :-)

Making Cookies

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2016, 10:04:08 PM »
"Plus, my shoes wore through every three months from walking on pavement all day. And not just “they look ratty”—my toes were literally touching burning pavement a few months after getting new shoes."

BULL CRAP!

You can go to Payless and buy a cheap $20-25 pair of crap shoes, and you couldn't possibly "wear through" them in "a few months."  Hell, you couldn't "wear through them" in 20 years.  They might have holes in the top, they might look like crap, but you won't "wear through them" even if you run a marathon every day.  Even cheap shoes have thick, rubber soles.  You could wear them for years and never wear through them.

I dare say most of you have NEVER "worn through" a pair of shoes (unless you are aged 80+ and remember the days when shoes had thin, leather soles).

I wear ladies flats for work (and when I leave the house for errands or social events) and literally wear through 2-3 pairs a year. Admittedly they cost about $20 a pair, and I thrash them, but it is definitely possible.

I bought a $25 pair of outdoorsy shoes at KMart a couple of years ago. Proceeded to walk for several miles on a Saturday afternoon. The soles came off within 10 miles. If you are poor and you are buying cheap shoes then I think the results might be disappointing.

Now that said, I usually buy my name brand shoes at a store that sells returns and seconds and those shoes are new or nearly new when I get them. Those shoes last several years and typically cost $35 a pair. I have a pair of New Balance outdoorsy shoes that I'll probably try to repeat when these wear out. Comfortable, presentable and so far very durable. They would cost twice what I paid for them if I paid full retail.

MrsPete

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2016, 10:12:44 PM »
I saw this on my Google news feed today and I thought it was a joke at first but I think this guy is serious.  Possibly the worst complainypants article I have seen in a long time so I had to share it here...
Thanks, that was an entertaining article.  While I agree that the guy's holding himself back by whining instead of working towards solutions, it is true that having some money makes it easier to save money:  You can stock up on chicken when it's on sale, allowing you to save money next week.  You can fix your brakes before the rotors go bad.  You can afford to dress decently for your job. 

"That’s what makes being poor so tough. Sure, you can make choices that lighten the load on yourself, but the margin of error is much thinner. Meanwhile, the amount of extra work you have to do just to break even is much higher. You could spend tens of hours each week trying to optimize every dime in your budget, just to have one mistake ruin you for a month.
I do agree with that.  I remember once in college I (foolishly) left a textbook unattended, and it was stolen.  I cried and cried.  This was a point in my life when I was literally going hungry sometimes, and losing that book marked my realization that I couldn't make it with just one job.

It's generally accepted among people who study it (economists, sociologists, etc) that being poor is a dangerous trap. It might make you feel better to pretend that someone could save just as much as you if they had no money, car, connections, and couldn't pick where they lived. Unfortunately, there is no evidence to support it. We are all very lucky to have the options that we do.
No, I don't think anyone actually believes that the poor could save just as much as a middle class family if only they'd just buck up and try harder!  Excluding the random millionaire librarian, starting with less means finishing with less.  Rather, many people could save more than they are managing to save now.  Or, if they employed more long-term planning strategies, they could work their way out of poverty.  It's true for at least some.  Back when I was poor, I thought I was doing everything I could; looking back with more years under my belt, I can see that I ignored some choices that would've helped me dig my way out faster. 

I dare say most of you have NEVER "worn through" a pair of shoes (unless you are aged 80+ and remember the days when shoes had thin, leather soles).
I'm nowhere near 80, but I've worn plenty of shoes all the way through.  I used to be very good at "doctoring up" my shoes: Ideally you want a three-layer insole -- the bottommost layer should be a thin, laminated plastic like a flexible plastic notebook cover (I'd search through trash cans at the end of the semester when people were tossing their old notebooks) or a food box, the  middle layer should be a plastic milk carton, and the layer nearest your foot should be corrugated cardboard.  The worst is when it rains; once the cardboard's been wet a couple times, you have to make new insoles.  Of course, the whole set-up needs replacing about every week or two anyway; you can't expect much from cardboard.  And when you're wearing cardboard in your shoes, you have to keep your feet flat on the floor in class so no one can see your soles. 

"Nickled and Dimed" is one of my favorite examples of how a CLUELESS, RICH, WHITE LIBERAL WOMAN PLAYING "POOR" will fail at being poor.
Yeah, that's the book I read!  The author had no idea HOW poor people "make do" and made no effort to learn.  But I don't think she failed.  She set out with the idea that her task was impossible, and -- sure enough -- she made it true.  She succeeded at exactly what she wanted to do. 

to read the Tighwad Gazette books was a life changer for us.
Yes, I realized that I didn't want to live as an adult like I had as a child, and reading /gathering information about HOW to make my money go further was Step One for me.  The Tightwad Gazette was one of the first books I read, and it's an excellent resource.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 10:17:40 PM by MrsPete »

cube.37

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2016, 09:09:55 AM »
"Plus, my shoes wore through every three months from walking on pavement all day. And not just “they look ratty”—my toes were literally touching burning pavement a few months after getting new shoes."

BULL CRAP!

You can go to Payless and buy a cheap $20-25 pair of crap shoes, and you couldn't possibly "wear through" them in "a few months."  Hell, you couldn't "wear through them" in 20 years.  They might have holes in the top, they might look like crap, but you won't "wear through them" even if you run a marathon every day.  Even cheap shoes have thick, rubber soles.  You could wear them for years and never wear through them.

I dare say most of you have NEVER "worn through" a pair of shoes (unless you are aged 80+ and remember the days when shoes had thin, leather soles).

I wear ladies flats for work (and when I leave the house for errands or social events) and literally wear through 2-3 pairs a year. Admittedly they cost about $20 a pair, and I thrash them, but it is definitely possible.

I bought a $25 pair of outdoorsy shoes at KMart a couple of years ago. Proceeded to walk for several miles on a Saturday afternoon. The soles came off within 10 miles. If you are poor and you are buying cheap shoes then I think the results might be disappointing.

Now that said, I usually buy my name brand shoes at a store that sells returns and seconds and those shoes are new or nearly new when I get them. Those shoes last several years and typically cost $35 a pair. I have a pair of New Balance outdoorsy shoes that I'll probably try to repeat when these wear out. Comfortable, presentable and so far very durable. They would cost twice what I paid for them if I paid full retail.

I played a lot of tennis in highschool (3 hours a day) and went through shoes all the time..These are nice adidas barricades which are like $80/pair, from a reputable brand. I needed new shoes every 3-6 months because I would wear through the sole (or specifically the front left portion of the right shoe) because I would drag my right foot when hitting a forehand. If I can do that with nice shoes in 6 months, I'm sure people can wear through the soles of shitty shoes too...

Gin1984

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2016, 09:15:11 AM »
It is hard to get out of poverty. Especially for someone who grew up in it.
...
Yes, they often got there by screwing up in an avoidable way, but now it's very difficult to get out of it.

Kind of like quicksand, I should think: better to avoid it than to have to escape it, and when you're escaping it there comes a point when you're in too deep to get out without somebody else's help.

Overall I believe frugality, saving/investment, and the acquisition of marketable skills are among the best poverty avoidance strategies.


Quote
And then the social situation doesn't help. If everybody around you is doing the same thing and complaining about the same thing then it seems normal.

There are also very real social consequences for bucking the trend. Suppose you're the only person in the family who refuses to enable a spendthrift family member, or who doesn't want to participate in an expensive, debt-driven gift exchange.
My mom grew up poor and could be damn frugal when she had to.  And she got a decent and then well paying job as she got older.  In fact she retired early.  But that was because of luck (her employer brought in a pension which she now lives on).  But I am financial person.  It takes me a minimum of 2 years to get her to consider something that saves/earns her money.  I had CDs for years prior to her.  It took five years of me mentioning ebates before she did it.  Two years of buying discount gift cards and talking about it, before she did it.  It is a mindset that needs changing.  She'll be frugal when she has to, but not if she does not because that was how she grew up.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 09:18:59 AM by Gin1984 »

shelivesthedream

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2016, 09:20:31 AM »
If I were to suddenly become poor now (no savings, minimum wage job, maybe even part time, most of our personal possessions gone), I think I would be OK. I have skills like bulk shopping, cooking from scratch, mending, getting my entertainment from the library, not giving a crap about how rich other people think I am, long term planning... all of which would allow me to squeeze the maximum value out of every penny. This is not including any social support I could rely on, like borrowing items from friends. If I got dinged by an unfair overdraft fee, it would be quite bad financially but I would be able to use the skills I have honed over years of being allowed to make mistakes without ruining my life to get out of it. However, if I had only known poverty then the first time I was in financial trouble I would have to experiment with what to do - and what if I got it wrong? I'd be even worse off. You cannot develop frugal skills without sometimes being able to make costly mistakes - like making a from-scratch dinner that is disgusting so you throw it away and get a takeaway. If you have budgeted to the penny what you can spend on food this week, you are either eating that dinner or going hungry. But after a few times of disgusting dinners you get to the point where you rarely have to throw anything away - but there's the hidden throwings away of learning dinners past that got you to this stage.

http://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/

I'm sure this comic has been linked to before but it's worth seeing again.

onlykelsey

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2016, 09:31:08 AM »

I wear ladies flats for work (and when I leave the house for errands or social events) and literally wear through 2-3 pairs a year. Admittedly they cost about $20 a pair, and I thrash them, but it is definitely possible.

YES.  And you can't resole a lot of those shoes.  Women's shoes are not meant for women to actually go anywhere in.

KodeBlue

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2016, 10:30:55 AM »
here's another take on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_-1l_SlA7c

language warning

dachs

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2016, 12:57:54 PM »
I agree with some points he makes. You really need some liquidity to save money in the long run. Buy a straight razor für 150€ just to never have to spend on razorblades ever again? Moving to a city, paying a hostel for a couple of weeks in order to find a job quicker? Not possible... I've had quite some of those examples with a friend and I was happy to help him out with liquidity. His biggest problem really was that he could not make any investments that would save him money in the future because he was in that kind of vicious circle. And getting a nice suit, flying to a remote city for an job interview when the employer doesn't pay the journey or getting experience in an unpaid internship are other examples that you just can't do when you're poor.

I also find it a lot harder to do "things that poor people do" if you actually are poor. If I wear old clothes or ride my bike it doesn't bother me because I could easily afford it. But if you are poor and have been poor for all your life that's something different. It's like all those minimalist guys who always have to boast about their former 6 figure salary and that that's the way of life they chose. If you never made 6 figures and live like that people will not really believe you that you could have made that much money and you will never know either.

Learner

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2016, 02:49:19 PM »
"Plus, my shoes wore through every three months from walking on pavement all day. And not just “they look ratty”—my toes were literally touching burning pavement a few months after getting new shoes."

BULL CRAP!

You can go to Payless and buy a cheap $20-25 pair of crap shoes, and you couldn't possibly "wear through" them in "a few months."  Hell, you couldn't "wear through them" in 20 years.  They might have holes in the top, they might look like crap, but you won't "wear through them" even if you run a marathon every day.  Even cheap shoes have thick, rubber soles.  You could wear them for years and never wear through them.

I dare say most of you have NEVER "worn through" a pair of shoes (unless you are aged 80+ and remember the days when shoes had thin, leather soles).

Not complaining about being poor, but I actually have worn through several pairs of shoes, where my big toe was exposed on the bottom.  Apparently the bones in my toe are fused somewhat, so it doesn't really bend properly.  Doesn't cause much problem most of the time, but certainly increases wear and tear on footwear.

dachs

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2016, 05:34:04 AM »
"Plus, my shoes wore through every three months from walking on pavement all day. And not just “they look ratty”—my toes were literally touching burning pavement a few months after getting new shoes."

BULL CRAP!

You can go to Payless and buy a cheap $20-25 pair of crap shoes, and you couldn't possibly "wear through" them in "a few months."  Hell, you couldn't "wear through them" in 20 years.  They might have holes in the top, they might look like crap, but you won't "wear through them" even if you run a marathon every day.  Even cheap shoes have thick, rubber soles.  You could wear them for years and never wear through them.

I dare say most of you have NEVER "worn through" a pair of shoes (unless you are aged 80+ and remember the days when shoes had thin, leather soles).

Also interested in which particular shoes you are buying. I wear through the soles on $30-$40 pairs of sketchers tennis shoes in 6-10 months. Of course, when I say "wear through" I mean "wear 98% through" because I get new shoes before my socks literally touch asphalt.

I agree. However, I think it really has to do with the "way" you walk since I have friends whose 10$ shoes will last for years and I can throw away my brand name shoes every year basically.

Rural

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2016, 06:14:54 AM »
Mrs. Pete, you forgot to mention duct tape on the bottom of shoe soles for water resistance and some traction when the tread has worn off. Costs, though, unless you find a thrown out end of a roll as I once did. I'm with you on the keeping the feet flat on the floor. It's easy to fall back into old habits, too. I was keeping my feet flat in a meeting a couple of weeks ago when I realized I can afford new shoes and should buy them for work. So I did.


Shelivesthedream: throwing out a disgusting meal is outside my experience. You eat it. With hot sauce if you have it, because it will cover the taste of almost anything and it goes with most savory foods. I think I've thrown out one meal in my life, when I realized I'd mistaken Carolina Moonseed for grape leaves in foraging - that was poisonous, so out it went. Had real meat in it, too, which our meals still usually don't. The replacement meal, by the way, was not takeout but oatmeal.


It's hard to break some of those habits when times get better - takes a deliberate conscious weighing - is this old habit a good one that helps even in my new circumstances, or is it now hurting me (like duct tape on shoes in a meeting, which could hurt quite a bit  if someone notices).


However, on the bright side the practice pays off as you both have noted. I can't remember the last time a meal came out gross... Though we are eating our way through an unfortunately bland 6 quart crock full of baked pasta at the moment which calls for generous amounts of garlic salt on each serving (a step up from hot sauce, though).
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 06:19:51 AM by Rural »

FIRE me

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2016, 12:51:05 PM »
I saw this on my Google news feed today and I thought it was a joke at first but I think this guy is serious.  Possibly the worst complainypants article I have seen in a long time so I had to share it here...

http://lifehacker.com/being-poor-is-too-expensive-1736233505

He actually  complains about not being able to afford to repair his car so he can drive 1 mile to work.  Also how he had to eat hot dogs and Ramen and drink store brand soda because healthy food is too expensive, yet never mentions rice and beans.  Anyway, enjoy!

I agree with other posters in this thread that there is a poor tax, and that the poor pay more for many goods and services.

But wow, you really uncovered a jewel of a guy here. Don't get me started on people like him. Damn, I'm already started.  :-)

He can't afford the $4 orange juice, so he buys the $1 soft drink (most likely multiples of them)? What is wrong with free water?

He thinks Ramen is the only cheap food? And he can't buy bulk foods? Has he never heard of potatoes, pasta, beans, and rice?

Can't keep his car maintained, but quotes repair shop prices with labor. Why not learn to DIY? For simple jobs, like his example of brake pads, he can buy the parts and the tools and the tools pay for themselves on the very first job. After that, the tools last a lifetime. And that assumes worst case, when he could probably borrow the tools - and maybe even some assistance - from a friend. 

He can't get ahead, no matter what. What a sad sack. But he is young, male, employed, educated enough to write well, has Internet access, is a citizen of the USA, and is healthy. In other words, he has advantages that millions in Third World countries can only dream of.

He can volunteer for overtime on his current job. If  it isn't available, he can get a second job. He can sell his TV (and I'd bet a dollar that he has cable). Do odd jobs. Money is out there, begging to be taken. But he can't be bothered.

I think the guy is either a master troll, or a willfully lazy and ignorant individual.

nprguy

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2016, 04:05:49 PM »
BULL CRAP!

You can go to Payless and buy a cheap $20-25 pair of crap shoes, and you couldn't possibly "wear through" them in "a few months."  Hell, you couldn't "wear through them" in 20 years.  They might have holes in the top, they might look like crap, but you won't "wear through them" even if you run a marathon every day.  Even cheap shoes have thick, rubber soles.  You could wear them for years and never wear through them.

I dare say most of you have NEVER "worn through" a pair of shoes (unless you are aged 80+ and remember the days when shoes had thin, leather soles).

As has already been stated most people have had a totally different experience, even with quality shoes.  My wife recently wore out a pair of 80+ dollar thick rubber soled Keen shoes in under 2.5 years and she owns a facepunch worthy 20+ pairs of shoes which allows for decent rotation.  I only own two pairs of sneakers (one for running and one for daily wear)  and I have routinely had "Made in the USA" New Balance 9XX walking shoes wear through in one year or less. 

clarkfan1979

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2016, 07:42:41 PM »
My step-dad fired someone a few years ago. They protested and said that they "couldn't afford to get fired right now"

It would be funny if the boss says, "Ok, let me know when you can save up some money and I will fire you then."

NorCal

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2016, 10:23:02 PM »
I saw this on my Google news feed today and I thought it was a joke at first but I think this guy is serious.  Possibly the worst complainypants article I have seen in a long time so I had to share it here...

http://lifehacker.com/being-poor-is-too-expensive-1736233505

He actually  complains about not being able to afford to repair his car so he can drive 1 mile to work.  Also how he had to eat hot dogs and Ramen and drink store brand soda because healthy food is too expensive, yet never mentions rice and beans.  Anyway, enjoy!

I agree with other posters in this thread that there is a poor tax, and that the poor pay more for many goods and services.

But wow, you really uncovered a jewel of a guy here. Don't get me started on people like him. Damn, I'm already started.  :-)

He can't afford the $4 orange juice, so he buys the $1 soft drink (most likely multiples of them)? What is wrong with free water?

He thinks Ramen is the only cheap food? And he can't buy bulk foods? Has he never heard of potatoes, pasta, beans, and rice?

Can't keep his car maintained, but quotes repair shop prices with labor. Why not learn to DIY? For simple jobs, like his example of brake pads, he can buy the parts and the tools and the tools pay for themselves on the very first job. After that, the tools last a lifetime. And that assumes worst case, when he could probably borrow the tools - and maybe even some assistance - from a friend. 

He can't get ahead, no matter what. What a sad sack. But he is young, male, employed, educated enough to write well, has Internet access, is a citizen of the USA, and is healthy. In other words, he has advantages that millions in Third World countries can only dream of.

He can volunteer for overtime on his current job. If  it isn't available, he can get a second job. He can sell his TV (and I'd bet a dollar that he has cable). Do odd jobs. Money is out there, begging to be taken. But he can't be bothered.

I think the guy is either a master troll, or a willfully lazy and ignorant individual.

Sure, there is a poor tax.  But I wouldn't say there's more of a poor tax than a rich tax.  Just look at those people who "need" a house cleaner, pay to service their cars at the dealer, and buy expensive cars and suits for high-paying jobs.

Everyone has something financial to complain about.  I have more sympathy for those paying the poor tax, but it's a lot more expensive to be rich* than it is to be poor.

The "stupid tax" is much more dangerous than either the poor tax and the rich tax.  This one is downright unforgiving and it hits the poor and the rich alike.


*This obviously applies to your average high-income person and not to our local mustachians.

MgoSam

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2016, 12:46:10 AM »
Let's say that one of us here that has a pristine driving record acts carelessly and gets a speeding ticket. I'm guessing that someone can simply write a check and file it away as a lesson not to speed, it'll mean less money that we would likely be investing or saving, or cutting back on going out for a week, right? I think if another someone was poor, didn't have much disposable income, and was barely making, that same speeding ticket might be the difference between paying rent.

dachs

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2016, 02:31:47 AM »
Let's say that one of us here that has a pristine driving record acts carelessly and gets a speeding ticket. I'm guessing that someone can simply write a check and file it away as a lesson not to speed, it'll mean less money that we would likely be investing or saving, or cutting back on going out for a week, right? I think if another someone was poor, didn't have much disposable income, and was barely making, that same speeding ticket might be the difference between paying rent.

True, but if you can't even afford a ticket why are you speeding in the first place? There are so many reasons not to speed even if you can afford a ticket (gas consumption, safety, ...), so why would you do it if it might ruin you? If you are poor speeding might slowly ruin you even without a ticket since you spend more money on gas, maintenance and have a much higher risk of an accident.

Gin1984

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2016, 06:37:22 AM »
Let's say that one of us here that has a pristine driving record acts carelessly and gets a speeding ticket. I'm guessing that someone can simply write a check and file it away as a lesson not to speed, it'll mean less money that we would likely be investing or saving, or cutting back on going out for a week, right? I think if another someone was poor, didn't have much disposable income, and was barely making, that same speeding ticket might be the difference between paying rent.

True, but if you can't even afford a ticket why are you speeding in the first place? There are so many reasons not to speed even if you can afford a ticket (gas consumption, safety, ...), so why would you do it if it might ruin you? If you are poor speeding might slowly ruin you even without a ticket since you spend more money on gas, maintenance and have a much higher risk of an accident.
Ok, then let's use another example, my friend was driving home from work last night when a cop followed her for twenty minutes (through turns off the main area) until she went through a curve (under the speed limit) at which time he hit his lights and pulled her over.  He then refused to tell her what she did and kept saying what do you think you did and she kept responding I don't know, because she did not.  At the end of about ten minutes he told her that because one tire went on the yellow line when she went around the curve she is getting a $150 ticket for reckless  driving.  This woman is a careful driver, but has a beater, something tells me the ticket was not valid (granted I am biased because she is my friend but I drive more aggressively than she does and have NEVER had a problem nor been followed by a cop for twenty minutes).

Captain and Mrs Slow

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2016, 07:22:03 AM »
It's important to different between personal decsions and public policy. I work in the Financial Services*  industry and I run into this all the time. Smart people make stupid finacial decsions all the time but that is very different from protecting people from predatory lending pratices.

BTW my learning disabled niece thanks to a supportive family was able to take a minimum wage job and move out on her own. Her dad works witht he homeless/working poor and say he gets how someone could be homeless.

Now here's the really really cool part, every week she sets aside a few dollars, now every 2-3 years she hops on a plane and joins us on holidays here in Europe. She's done more travelling than most people will do in a lifetime this inspite of earning only minimim wage. So yes a low wage is not an impediment to travel.

*technically I'm retired but I do this out of love and passion.   

CALL 911

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2016, 01:19:06 PM »
Ok, then let's use another example, my friend was driving home from work last night when a cop followed her for twenty minutes (through turns off the main area) until she went through a curve (under the speed limit) at which time he hit his lights and pulled her over.  He then refused to tell her what she did and kept saying what do you think you did and she kept responding I don't know, because she did not.  At the end of about ten minutes he told her that because one tire went on the yellow line when she went around the curve she is getting a $150 ticket for reckless  driving.  This woman is a careful driver, but has a beater, something tells me the ticket was not valid (granted I am biased because she is my friend but I drive more aggressively than she does and have NEVER had a problem nor been followed by a cop for twenty minutes).

Unless I'm pressed for time, if/when I'm being tailed by a cop, I stop at the next convenient business for 5 seconds. Long enough for them to pass me and pick someone else.
For this very reason.
I too, was tailed by a cop for a long time. Granted, it was 2 in the morning, and I was the only car on the road (aside from him). I was following all of the laws. Finally, he pulled me over for a "dim" license plate light. The car was a 25 year old beater from a premium brand. It probably came from the factory as dim, at least by current standards.
I didn't get a ticket. Possibly because I was a white male professional. And I wasn't drunk. And I would have fought any ticket.

For those that don't believe some officers act because they are bored, or because they can, I firmly believe you're mistaken.

Sometimes, the system is set against people with fewer resources. And that just sucks.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 01:30:01 PM by CALL 911 »

dachs

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2016, 03:06:54 PM »
Let's say that one of us here that has a pristine driving record acts carelessly and gets a speeding ticket. I'm guessing that someone can simply write a check and file it away as a lesson not to speed, it'll mean less money that we would likely be investing or saving, or cutting back on going out for a week, right? I think if another someone was poor, didn't have much disposable income, and was barely making, that same speeding ticket might be the difference between paying rent.

True, but if you can't even afford a ticket why are you speeding in the first place? There are so many reasons not to speed even if you can afford a ticket (gas consumption, safety, ...), so why would you do it if it might ruin you? If you are poor speeding might slowly ruin you even without a ticket since you spend more money on gas, maintenance and have a much higher risk of an accident.
Ok, then let's use another example, my friend was driving home from work last night when a cop followed her for twenty minutes (through turns off the main area) until she went through a curve (under the speed limit) at which time he hit his lights and pulled her over.  He then refused to tell her what she did and kept saying what do you think you did and she kept responding I don't know, because she did not.  At the end of about ten minutes he told her that because one tire went on the yellow line when she went around the curve she is getting a $150 ticket for reckless  driving.  This woman is a careful driver, but has a beater, something tells me the ticket was not valid (granted I am biased because she is my friend but I drive more aggressively than she does and have NEVER had a problem nor been followed by a cop for twenty minutes).

Well that's odd. The cop will probably have recorded the incident with his videocamera in his car? If not how does he want to prove it? I would talk to a lawyer in that case in if it happens more often she might want to have a liability insurance. :) I'm just saying that people should not do things that might eventually lead to situations they can't afford. And if they want to they should buy an insurance if they can't afford the consequences. I've heard that people in Switzerland buy an insurance policy that pays the rescue helicopter in case they get lost in the mountains. If you can't pay the helicopter and don't have that insurance you might consider to not go climbing in the mountains, maybe...

Gin1984

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #77 on: February 21, 2016, 03:15:06 PM »
Let's say that one of us here that has a pristine driving record acts carelessly and gets a speeding ticket. I'm guessing that someone can simply write a check and file it away as a lesson not to speed, it'll mean less money that we would likely be investing or saving, or cutting back on going out for a week, right? I think if another someone was poor, didn't have much disposable income, and was barely making, that same speeding ticket might be the difference between paying rent.

True, but if you can't even afford a ticket why are you speeding in the first place? There are so many reasons not to speed even if you can afford a ticket (gas consumption, safety, ...), so why would you do it if it might ruin you? If you are poor speeding might slowly ruin you even without a ticket since you spend more money on gas, maintenance and have a much higher risk of an accident.
Ok, then let's use another example, my friend was driving home from work last night when a cop followed her for twenty minutes (through turns off the main area) until she went through a curve (under the speed limit) at which time he hit his lights and pulled her over.  He then refused to tell her what she did and kept saying what do you think you did and she kept responding I don't know, because she did not.  At the end of about ten minutes he told her that because one tire went on the yellow line when she went around the curve she is getting a $150 ticket for reckless  driving.  This woman is a careful driver, but has a beater, something tells me the ticket was not valid (granted I am biased because she is my friend but I drive more aggressively than she does and have NEVER had a problem nor been followed by a cop for twenty minutes).

Well that's odd. The cop will probably have recorded the incident with his videocamera in his car? If not how does he want to prove it? I would talk to a lawyer in that case in if it happens more often she might want to have a liability insurance. :) I'm just saying that people should not do things that might eventually lead to situations they can't afford. And if they want to they should buy an insurance if they can't afford the consequences. I've heard that people in Switzerland buy an insurance policy that pays the rescue helicopter in case they get lost in the mountains. If you can't pay the helicopter and don't have that insurance you might consider to not go climbing in the mountains, maybe...
She does plan to fight it, but keep in mind, cops don't have to prove anything.  There is a belief is justice system that gives cops the expectation of being believed (even though we have found many incidences of untruth from cops now that we have cell phones with video) so all he needs is his word.  And yes, I get your point but my point is that you can't always avoid situations that might cost you more because appearing poor (or minority in some places) will just cost you more because of other people's bias.   

MgoSam

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #78 on: February 21, 2016, 04:10:44 PM »
Let's say that one of us here that has a pristine driving record acts carelessly and gets a speeding ticket. I'm guessing that someone can simply write a check and file it away as a lesson not to speed, it'll mean less money that we would likely be investing or saving, or cutting back on going out for a week, right? I think if another someone was poor, didn't have much disposable income, and was barely making, that same speeding ticket might be the difference between paying rent.

True, but if you can't even afford a ticket why are you speeding in the first place?

Because shit happens.

Ok, that's not good enough. Take out speeding, and put it with anything else. I believe that if I am driving a beater, I'm going to be more likely to get pulled over than someone driving a brand new car (doesn't need to be a fancy import either). So you could argue that regardless of how safe of a driver someone is, someone driving a worse-off car is more apt to get pulled over.

Nearly any cop can shot something that causes to give you a ticket. They can literally wait for you to cross over a medium line by mistake (for a split second) and use that to charge you. OR they can Sandra Bland you and speed right up to you, causing you to shift lanes as a split-second reaction, and then pull you over for changing lanes without signalling (something I see people doing daily, including in front of cops, without getting pulled over for it).

Apples

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2016, 05:22:46 PM »
My step-dad fired someone a few years ago. They protested and said that they "couldn't afford to get fired right now"

It would be funny if the boss says, "Ok, let me know when you can save up some money and I will fire you then."

My dad is currently not firing someone b/c he has a stay at home wife and two young teens at home, and lives in a company-owned rent free house that he would have to move out of in addition to losing his income.  The guy definitely can't afford to be fired, b/c he can't afford to live w/o almost every paycheck.  They would make it, but it would be tiiiiight.  Of course, the guy isn't doing anything that would require an immediate firing, just lots of smaller infractions and an attitude problem.  But the boss (my dad) won't fire him b/c he doesn't think the guy (and especially his family) can afford it.

MgoSam

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2016, 05:42:27 PM »
My step-dad fired someone a few years ago. They protested and said that they "couldn't afford to get fired right now"

It would be funny if the boss says, "Ok, let me know when you can save up some money and I will fire you then."

But the boss (my dad) won't fire him b/c he doesn't think the guy (and especially his family) can afford it.

Your dad is likely a far better than I am. I'm not the easiest person to work for, but I think that I"m fair. I expect people that work under me to work very hard. Small infractions can be ignored, but poor attitude is not. We did have a guy in the warehouse that would roll his eyes at me when I told him to do something, and would resent everything and before I fired him, my warehouse manager did.

Work isn't a charitable operation. That said, I've had employees find themselves in a tight space, and I've loaned them money to tide them through and always gotten paid back.

coolistdude

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #81 on: February 21, 2016, 10:54:27 PM »
This article is a list of reasons for why he couldn't succeed where he was at. Life is a challenge. Americans tend to forget that they have an easier challenge than the rest of the population. So, when I look at my life and try to use my strengths and feel annoyed at how little I make compared to the Jones's, I realize I'm playing this money game of life on easy mode. Other people, they've never even heard of health insurance, or car registration. Why put so much exertion into making yourself fail? If you're going to succeed less, either live with it or find another way.

I'm trying not to be brutal on this fella, I've lived with nearly nothing before. Whether you have chosen to pull yourself up or not, don't waste energy bemoaning your difficult life to the world.

FINate

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2016, 12:23:37 AM »
I feel sympathetic for the guy after reading this article and another one he wrote about being broke (http://lifehacker.com/the-financial-advice-im-glad-i-ignored-when-i-was-brok-1492198947)

Living on little and having too much month at the end of the money sucks, it's a terrible feeling. So his situation was/is bad, although this is not why I feel sympathy for him. In both articles he writes about his effort to project an image. In one case this includes opening a line of credit with a clothing retailer to purchase new clothes. I get that clothes wear out, but what's wrong with second hand stores? In another case he uses image to justify purchasing the "best Android phone he could afford" using a credit card! He later describes this as "buying into a status symbol in the Android community."

He sums this up when he writes "Money isn't just about paying for goods and services. Money is about dignity." I disagree. Money is a necessary tool for essentials. You can't purchase dignity, dignity comes from within.

I feel sorry for him because his mindset about money will likely ensure that he continues to struggle with finances and the respect he desires.

 

dachs

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2016, 02:11:39 AM »
He sums this up when he writes "Money isn't just about paying for goods and services. Money is about dignity." I disagree. Money is a necessary tool for essentials. You can't purchase dignity, dignity comes from within.

I feel sorry for him because his mindset about money will likely ensure that he continues to struggle with finances and the respect he desires.

So true! After all the try to buy dignity with money makes him even more broke and thus lose even more dignity.

Ann

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2016, 02:43:57 AM »
I feel sympathetic for the guy after reading this article and another one he wrote about being broke (http://lifehacker.com/the-financial-advice-im-glad-i-ignored-when-i-was-brok-1492198947)

Living on little and having too much month at the end of the money sucks, it's a terrible feeling. So his situation was/is bad, although this is not why I feel sympathy for him. In both articles he writes about his effort to project an image. In one case this includes opening a line of credit with a clothing retailer to purchase new clothes. I get that clothes wear out, but what's wrong with second hand stores? In another case he uses image to justify purchasing the "best Android phone he could afford" using a credit card! He later describes this as "buying into a status symbol in the Android community."

He sums this up when he writes "Money isn't just about paying for goods and services. Money is about dignity." I disagree. Money is a necessary tool for essentials. You can't purchase dignity, dignity comes from within.

I feel sorry for him because his mindset about money will likely ensure that he continues to struggle with finances and the respect he desires.

I, too, feel more sympathy after reading the other article.  The article you linked is about how most financial advice is not geared towards those living poverty level.  I would say this is true.  But his attitude could still be worked on. 

I think that some people realize they have a financial problem and start looking for answers, but then get angry/ discouraged / feel judged when every piece of advice is not tailor-fit to their situation.  Then they dismiss all of it, or claim it's rotten or out-of-touch advice.  Really what I found is you HAVE TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND.  I don't follow or agree with 100% of MMM's advice.  That doesn't mean I have embraced certain concepts or modified others to fit me.  And I guarantee you I am better off now than I would have been if I hadn't started researching and applying personal finance advice 8 years ago.  I could have been better, but I'm better than I was.  And I can still improve!

Neverstop

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #85 on: May 18, 2016, 02:15:10 AM »
I used to work at a bank and I saw first hand how the bank rapes people when it comes to overdraft fees, but not without food reason. Some people are just imbeciles. This was a bank in a lower/lower middle class area where a lot of people made virtually no effort to balance their bank account. There were people who would overdraw their account multiple times per day @ $39 per time plus $7 a day that it is overdrawn even after we would tell them it's a lot cheaper to just withdraw a large amount that will cover everything and just pay one fee instead of several. 9/10 times these are regular customers who do it every pay day.

 

BTDretire

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Re: I can't afford to be poor!!
« Reply #86 on: June 01, 2016, 04:22:22 PM »
"Plus, my shoes wore through every three months from walking on pavement all day. And not just “they look ratty”—my toes were literally touching burning pavement a few months after getting new shoes."

BULL CRAP!

You can go to Payless and buy a cheap $20-25 pair of crap shoes, and you couldn't possibly "wear through" them in "a few months."  Hell, you couldn't "wear through them" in 20 years.  They might have holes in the top, they might look like crap, but you won't "wear through them" even if you run a marathon every day.  Even cheap shoes have thick, rubber soles.  You could wear them for years and never wear through them.

I dare say most of you have NEVER "worn through" a pair of shoes (unless you are aged 80+ and remember the days when shoes had thin, leather soles).
  LOL, this morning I was BS'ing with a few guys, one guy ask about anothers boots, he said the were $110.
There was a comment good tread, I laughed and pointed out I almost have my $2 shoes wore out, as I held one foot out.  $2"?, where do you get shoes for $2?  I answered garage sale, Salvation Army or Goodwill.
Sad part is, I know I earn 4 x what the $110 *boot man makes and I'm FI, he might have a positive networth, probably not though. The typical mustachian, nonmustachian dichotomy.

* I need to give him some credit, he now has a stable job and says he works hard, no, he says he busts his ass, and is moving up because of it. Also has a 401k and profit sharing. A major change for him.