Author Topic: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition  (Read 34882 times)

No Name Guy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 450
  • Location: Western Washington
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2014, 01:00:11 PM »
Honestly, kids shouldn't be considered an adult until 21 at this point.   25 would be best because that's when your brain actually stops developing.     At least 21 though, because it's essentially impossible to get ahead at this point without a college degree.   And if you don't want to pay for your kids to go to college, there's no reason to have them in the first place.     Just like with a divorce, you owe your children or your spouse that made less money a leg up on their single life.   It's just fair.
This is the biggest crock of shit I've read in quite a while on these forums.
Not saying I necessarily agree, but are you disputing the biological assertion, or the legal conclusions? Or are you just a knee-jerk reactionary who thinks calling something a "crock of shit" is convincing?
Even assuming the assertions about brain development are true, that post is full of shit.

But why?  Articulate a little.

I mean, I agree with you (based on philosophical implications relating to agency), but what are your reasons for saying it's "a crock of shit"?  Rather than just posting that multiple times, can you try to add to the quality of the conversation, instead of subtracting from it?

I'll chime in.....the originally quoted post is a crock of shit.  Regardless of what science says of brain development, the law says 18 = adult, period.  We're nominally a nation of laws.  The law is reality when defining adulthood until an individual is deemed pursuant to the law to not be (e.g. insane, for example, for one who is older than 18).

Now, if there is to be a discussion of changing that BASED on science, hey great....then CHANGE THE LAW, which will include repealing or amending the 26th Amendment and defining adulthood at 25. 

Also change the draft age, drinking age, change the age at which people may enter the military, run for office (yes...there's another one - an 18 year old can run for office), etc, etc, etc.


I'll further call bullshit on the assertion in the original quoted post that a 21 y/o can't get ahead without a college degree.  Cough, cough....Electrical lineman.  Plumber.  Longshoreman...ok, any of the trades that one apprentices.  Independent business person (buddy did his own landscaping business - I could see doing ones own coffee shop, etc).  Assembly line worker at major Seattle aerospace company.  Enlistment in the military (for those, like Nords, although I believe he was an "O" not an "E", who are smart enough to do things right).  This is just what I can come up with off the top of the head.

None of those require college and all can (if you're good and work hard) pay very well and / or set you up well.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28059
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2014, 01:09:23 PM »
Yes, I believe changing the law is what they were implying.

Not just flout laws.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with two kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3519
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2014, 01:25:46 PM »
Are we really setting up our society (or New Jersey's society, anyways) where children can sue their parents to support them through college, well past 18? That's a scary thought. I'm a parent and my kids are still quite young, but naturally I want to support them and help them with university when they get to that age. That's something quite different from being legally required to, however!
No, I don't think we as a society are heading in this direction.  I think it's one example of a screwed-up family.  It'd be unconstitutional to require parents to pay for college /support their adult children. 

I am currently paying for my oldest's college education, and I have every intention of paying for my  younger child too; however, I didn't just open up my bank account and say, "Take whatever you want."  I would not be so willing to pay if my child wasn't working very hard towards a degree, or if she had insisted upon an expensive private school, or if she was just taking random classes and wasn't progressing towards a solid degree that'll get her a job. 

Good add galliver.  Another discussion that addresses aspects of both HIPAA and FERPA and how they can affect colleges (and students) is http://ispub.com/IJLHE/6/2/3751.
Yeah, I think all of us who are paying college tuition are a bit perturbed that on one hand the college wants our money, whereas on the other hand, they're not allowed to give us any information about what our babies are doing . . . unless the kids choose to give us information.

When my oldest was signing up for "all things college", we talked about that for about 30 seconds.  I explained that we are happy-happy-happy to pay for her degree, but she WOULD give us access to her college records (which we can see online anytime), or we would reconsider our generosity.  Either we're in this thing, or we're out -- it can't go both ways.  She agreed that was reasonable, and we've had no conflict about it within our house.

The parents certainly are obligated to her high school to finish out the contract for the school year.

The parents have a right to establish household rules for children to follow. I didn't see in that article that they didn't want her to date a particular guy, so I am thinking you all saw it elsewhere. But, I think it is acceptable for parents to not allow their kid (person not out of high school) to date a particular person. If my child, while still in high school, tried to date someone committing illegal activity, I would forbid it.
I agree that the parents are going to have to pay for the current high school year. 

They might be overly controlling parents who are trying to micromanage the girls' life . . . or they might have legitimate reasons to be concerned about a no-good or dangerous boyfriend whom she really should kick to the curb.  We don't know. 

I'm thinking a lot of this has to do with the boyfriend.  In my years teaching high school, I've known a number of senior girls who wanted to move out of their parents' house so they could live with an older boyfriend (way too young for such a choice), and those girls tended to "invent" problems so they'd have an excuse to move out.  These kids tend not to come from "white picket fence" families, but they're also not families who ought to be in court for the way they're treating their kids.  Is this such a situation?  I don't know, but experience makes me suspect it might be so. 

Occasionally I've known about a friend's parents taking in "a poor abused or neglected child", only to find out that the real story was quite different.  Again, I could easily believe that's the situation here. 

Having said that, something I've heard of many times over the years:  Parents with problem kids really get the bad end of things when their kids are 16 and 17 years old.  If the kid leaves the house voluntarily and the parents report them to the police as "runaways", the police won't force the kids to come home.  However, if the parents put the kid out of the house (even for good reasons; say, bringing drugs into the house), the parents can be brought to court for child abandonment.  The real answer:  You'd better teach your children well so they don't get into situations like this!   
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 01:28:22 PM by MrsPete »

Mazzinator

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 572
  • Location: Pa, Ga, Fl, Pa, Az, Tn, Va, Hi, Va, Pa, NoVa
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2014, 02:01:45 PM »
I don't really think we have enough/correct information to make an informed arguement, but i'll do it anyways ;)

It reads/implies that they already have "college funds" for her..this could mean a 529 plan or similar and i believe the judge ordered them not to "keep status quo" on her college savings account.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/05/new-jersey-teen-sues-parents-for-support-claiming-was-kicked-out-home/?intcmp=latestnews

I think, not a lawyer here, but i think the legal argument could be that there was some form of agreement/contract by parents and daughter that they would pay for her college, so then the teen could argue that she didn't make any efforts to save because they already promised to pay for and the proof is the said college fund account.

So, not necessarily that all parents must always pay for their kids college, but if you promised you would and then didn't, than that's the real issue. What do you guys think???

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4765
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2014, 02:18:34 PM »
Oh....as to those that imply that somehow 18 isn't an adult, I'll observe:

I think you're kinda missing the point. I don't think anyone is arguing that she shouldn't be considered an adult, merely that she may not be considered an adult by NJ law. From a legal standpoint you are an adult when the law says you're an adult, not when some random person on the internet thinks your rights / responsibilities add up to adult status.

Actually Sherr, those aren't "random" items - those are all examples of things (some with potentially grave consequences) that a fully independent, ADULT IN THE EYES OF THE LAW person are legally entitled to do and that a child is forbidden from doing (or only doing in certain circumstances with parental / guardian permission).  The collective knowledge of this forum could certainly come up with countless other things* that one can do at 18 years and zero days on their own that is forbidden at 17 years, 364 days without parental permission or just outright forbidden.

She is, in fact, and in law, an adult. 

I'll also point out the 26th Amendment as further proof of legal adulthood at 18, period.

* - other things I can come up with without thinking too hard on the subject.  Sign liability waiver for risky activities such as skydiving and bungee jumping.  Use heavy or power equipment on the job (OHSA forbids use of power tools by minors - this one I know from my volunteer experience where juveniles are forbidden from using brush saws on the trail crew).  At 18, juvenile hour restrictions on work end.
AGAIN, it depends on the STATE!  There are a certain list a federal rights that you get at 18, but it is up to the states to determine the age of majority. 

Undecided

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1088
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2014, 02:40:05 PM »
Oh....as to those that imply that somehow 18 isn't an adult, I'll observe:

I think you're kinda missing the point. I don't think anyone is arguing that she shouldn't be considered an adult, merely that she may not be considered an adult by NJ law. From a legal standpoint you are an adult when the law says you're an adult, not when some random person on the internet thinks your rights / responsibilities add up to adult status.

Actually Sherr, those aren't "random" items - those are all examples of things (some with potentially grave consequences) that a fully independent, ADULT IN THE EYES OF THE LAW person are legally entitled to do and that a child is forbidden from doing (or only doing in certain circumstances with parental / guardian permission).  The collective knowledge of this forum could certainly come up with countless other things* that one can do at 18 years and zero days on their own that is forbidden at 17 years, 364 days without parental permission or just outright forbidden.

She is, in fact, and in law, an adult. 

I'll also point out the 26th Amendment as further proof of legal adulthood at 18, period.

* - other things I can come up with without thinking too hard on the subject.  Sign liability waiver for risky activities such as skydiving and bungee jumping.  Use heavy or power equipment on the job (OHSA forbids use of power tools by minors - this one I know from my volunteer experience where juveniles are forbidden from using brush saws on the trail crew).  At 18, juvenile hour restrictions on work end.
AGAIN, it depends on the STATE!  There are a certain list a federal rights that you get at 18, but it is up to the states to determine the age of majority.

Also, as I've seen NJ law presented here, it's not obvious that a person becoming an adult (for any specific purpose previously discussed, even if being discussed under state law) is relevant to the point at which that person's parents cease to have any support obligations.

rocksinmyhead

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1491
  • Location: Oklahoma
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2014, 03:19:51 PM »
I saw the OP's article on my GF's FB and knew it would find its way here!

http://www.finaid.org/otheraid/parentsrefuse.phtml
Wow!  The attitude on this page is really eye-opening.

That page is chock full of emotionally charged and loaded words and is a little quite over the top.  While there is some helpful information, it is surrounded by entitling and guilt inducing language that drowns out the message.

Agreed, it was really weird. I found this part especially disturbing:

Quote
What to do if your parents don't want to take out loans to pay for your education.
Make a deal with your parents, where you agree to assume responsibility for the payments on the PLUS loan after you graduate and get a job. You'll graduate heavily in debt, and will have to struggle, but at least you'll be able to graduate.

Like, what?!? I thought that was the default "deal." People seriously expect their parents, who obviously can't afford to pay for college outright and that's why they have to take out loans, to pay for their kids' student loans?!?!??! My parents took out a shit ton of PLUS loans for me but fucking of course I'm paying them back. I'm 25 and they're 55. The education paid for by the loans increased my earning power immensely. Who does it make more sense to have take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt? God that makes me sick. "You'll graduate heavily in debt, and will have to struggle..." OMG life is so hard. Maybe get a degree that'll make you good money and then you won't have to struggle.

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4047
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2014, 05:10:29 PM »
Honestly, kids shouldn't be considered an adult until 21 at this point.   25 would be best because that's when your brain actually stops developing.   

The brain actually does not stop developing, at least not unless you get Alzheimer's or something.  (Of course you can choose to let it get flabby, just as some people let their muscles get flabby, but that's another matter.)  The real problem here is that western culture tries to keep young people in a state of artificially-prolonged childhood - AKA adolescence - by denying them responsibility.

You don't have to look far back in history to discover people who were doing quite responsible jobs at ages where they'd be legally considered children today.

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4047
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2014, 09:50:33 PM »
Oh, and I know that some of you consider her parents too controlling, so I'm throwing this out there for you:
http://daddclub.com/

I really don't want to get too far into this, but I've always suspected that fathers like that have psychological issues that have nothing to do with being overcontrolling parents.  I mean, do they react the same way when their sons date?

sheepstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2424
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2014, 10:19:59 PM »
Oh, and I know that some of you consider her parents too controlling, so I'm throwing this out there for you:
http://daddclub.com/

I really don't want to get too far into this, but I've always suspected that fathers like that have psychological issues that have nothing to do with being overcontrolling parents.  I mean, do they react the same way when their sons date?

It has to do with teenage boys making their hormones/sex drive a bigger priority than respecting the young lady they are dating.  :) That would be what dads/parents have an issue with.  I was a teenager, and I would say that they are right about being protective of their daughters. 

And, with sons there is some guidance involved as well. 

It will be all in good humor, but I do plan to play around with this if my daughters deem some dude worthy of dating while they are still minors.  It will make for good stories later on.  Really, we have fun times together, and this will just be the next level of it.


sherr

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 694
  • Age: 34
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2014, 08:22:00 AM »
Oh....as to those that imply that somehow 18 isn't an adult, I'll observe:

I think you're kinda missing the point. I don't think anyone is arguing that she shouldn't be considered an adult, merely that she may not be considered an adult by NJ law. From a legal standpoint you are an adult when the law says you're an adult, not when some random person on the internet thinks your rights / responsibilities add up to adult status.

Actually Sherr, those aren't "random" items - those are all examples of things (some with potentially grave consequences) that a fully independent, ADULT IN THE EYES OF THE LAW person are legally entitled to do and that a child is forbidden from doing (or only doing in certain circumstances with parental / guardian permission).  The collective knowledge of this forum could certainly come up with countless other things* that one can do at 18 years and zero days on their own that is forbidden at 17 years, 364 days without parental permission or just outright forbidden.

[sigh]
First of all, I never said those were random items, I said that you were a random person on the internet (and therefore not an authority on when someone is legally considered an "adult"). What I said about the items is that they were a list of rights / responsibilities, which they are.

She is, in fact, and in law, an adult. 

Incorrect. She is an adult when the law says she is an adult and that's the entire point of the lawsuit; that in NJ she may not in fact be considered an adult depending on the circumstances of how she left her parents house.

I'll also point out the 26th Amendment as further proof of legal adulthood at 18, period.

You'd also be wrong to point it out. The 26th amendment says that you have the right to vote when you're 18, not that you're an adult when you're 18.

We all get that you think she should be considered an adult because she's 18. The point that you originally missed and continue to miss is that that's not necessarily true in NJ under current law, she may not be an adult by their definition.

You should take a little more time to understand what people are saying before charging in to argue with them.

Letj

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 382
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2014, 10:30:27 AM »
Initial ruling: Parents don't have to pay.

http://gawker.com/parents-wont-have-to-give-allowance-to-the-daughter-wh-1536906243

They're due back in court in April to figure out if she's emancapated or not.

This seems good so far.

I wonder if the parties involved will sort something out before April 22 (I think it was). Since it seems unlikely the daughter is going to get her allowance/expenses/legal fees, there's really just the question of the college fund, which I believe the parents have said they're not going to try to keep from her.

The daughter's lawyer is probably not going to be too keen to push this much more if his fees aren't going to be covered. And the daughter is probably finding out that she's not coming across in the NATION-WIDE MEDIA COVERAGE as well as she was thinking she would.

I read in one article that the daughter's school is waiving her tuition fees for the rest of the school year, since she's an honor student, cheerleader, etc. They probably figure it's in their PR interest to stay as far away from this trainwreck as possible.

I seem to think that she is being manipulated as well. I think her friend's father is looking for his 15 minutes of fame.

Letj

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 382
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2014, 10:39:32 AM »
Honestly, kids shouldn't be considered an adult until 21 at this point.   25 would be best because that's when your brain actually stops developing.   

The brain actually does not stop developing, at least not unless you get Alzheimer's or something.  (Of course you can choose to let it get flabby, just as some people let their muscles get flabby, but that's another matter.)  The real problem here is that western culture tries to keep young people in a state of artificially-prolonged childhood - AKA adolescence - by denying them responsibility.

You don't have to look far back in history to discover people who were doing quite responsible jobs at ages where they'd be legally considered children today.
+1000. That's because they have the financial means to do so but that can backfire big time.  Western children are over coddled and handicapped by their helicopter parents. That may in part explain the divorce rates.

Letj

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 382
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2014, 10:41:41 AM »
Oh, and I know that some of you consider her parents too controlling, so I'm throwing this out there for you:
http://daddclub.com/

I really don't want to get too far into this, but I've always suspected that fathers like that have psychological issues that have nothing to do with being overcontrolling parents.  I mean, do they react the same way when their sons date?

That's because their daughters are the ones usually saddled with the result of the raging hormones.  Parents have been protecting their girls this way forever. Blame evolution.

tfordon

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 60
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2014, 01:45:45 PM »
Here is an article that discusses the brain continuing to develop until 25: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141164708.  I don't know how this should affect our laws if true, but it is interesting.

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4047
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2014, 02:42:19 PM »
It has to do with teenage boys making their hormones/sex drive a bigger priority than respecting the young lady they are dating.  :) That would be what dads/parents have an issue with.  I was a teenager, and I would say that they are right about being protective of their daughters.

And teenage girls don't have hormones?  (Even if they're often expressed in a different way.)  If a parent really wanted to be protective, they'd ensure that their kids - and especially daughters - had the best birth control they could find, and the knowledge to use it.  But no, we see too many of these parents (and usually fathers) trying to keep their kids away from all that.

That's because their daughters are the ones usually saddled with the result of the raging hormones.  Parents have been protecting their girls this way forever. Blame evolution.

Humans have been doing all sorts of things 'forever'.  Doesn't make them right, or mean that intelligent people shouldn't try to understand the reasons, or come up with better ways.  After all, people had been dying of smallpox, polio, and all sorts of other diseases 'forever'; does that mean we should keep on doing so, when simple vaccinations & other public health measures can prevent them? 

Likewise, we now have effective birth control &c, so why is there any point in 'protecting' daughters, other than the obvious psycholical reason?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 10:00:11 PM by Jamesqf »

grantmeaname

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4828
  • Age: 27
  • Location: NYC
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2014, 02:46:30 PM »
It has to do with teenage boys making their hormones/sex drive a bigger priority than respecting the young lady they are dating.
I don't understand how any part of this view is consistent with a society with any measure of gender equality.

ETA: I've never agreed with Jamesqf so much in my life.

SisterX

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2797
  • Location: 2nd Star on the Right and Straight On 'Til Morning
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2014, 03:02:37 PM »
It has to do with teenage boys making their hormones/sex drive a bigger priority than respecting the young lady they are dating.  :) That would be what dads/parents have an issue with.  I was a teenager, and I would say that they are right about being protective of their daughters.

And teenage girls don't have hormones?  (Even if they're often expressed in a different way.)  If a parent really wanted to be protective, they'd ensure that their kids - and especially daughters - and the best birth control they could find, and the knowledge to use it.  But no, we see too many of these parents (and usually fathers) trying to keep their kids away from all that.

That's because their daughters are the ones usually saddled with the result of the raging hormones.  Parents have been protecting their girls this way forever. Blame evolution.

Humans have been doing all sorts of things 'forever'.  Doesn't make them right, or mean that intelligent people shouldn't try to understand the reasons, or come up with better ways.  After all, people had been dying of smallpox, polio, and all soerts of other diseases 'forever'; does that mean we should keep on doing so, when simple vaccinations & other public health measures can prevent them? 

Likewise, we now have effective birth control &c, so why is there any point in 'protecting' daughters, other than the obvious psycholical reason?

Thank you for stating this better than I could!  I still can't believe there are people out there who defend the double-standard.  I'm sure that my husband will mess with her future boyfriends (or girlfriends, if that's her gender preference) but only because it's hilarious to do so. 

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2014, 08:49:43 PM »
Honestly, kids shouldn't be considered an adult until 21 at this point.   25 would be best because that's when your brain actually stops developing.     At least 21 though, because it's essentially impossible to get ahead at this point without a college degree.   And if you don't want to pay for your kids to go to college, there's no reason to have them in the first place.     Just like with a divorce, you owe your children or your spouse that made less money a leg up on their single life.   It's just fair.
This is the biggest crock of shit I've read in quite a while on these forums.
Not saying I necessarily agree, but are you disputing the biological assertion, or the legal conclusions? Or are you just a knee-jerk reactionary who thinks calling something a "crock of shit" is convincing?
Even assuming the assertions about brain development are true, that post is full of shit.

But why?  Articulate a little.

I mean, I agree with you (based on philosophical implications relating to agency), but what are your reasons for saying it's "a crock of shit"?  Rather than just posting that multiple times, can you try to add to the quality of the conversation, instead of subtracting from it?

I'll chime in.....the originally quoted post is a crock of shit.  Regardless of what science says of brain development, the law says 18 = adult, period.  We're nominally a nation of laws.  The law is reality when defining adulthood until an individual is deemed pursuant to the law to not be (e.g. insane, for example, for one who is older than 18).

Now, if there is to be a discussion of changing that BASED on science, hey great....then CHANGE THE LAW, which will include repealing or amending the 26th Amendment and defining adulthood at 25. 

Also change the draft age, drinking age, change the age at which people may enter the military, run for office (yes...there's another one - an 18 year old can run for office), etc, etc, etc.


I'll further call bullshit on the assertion in the original quoted post that a 21 y/o can't get ahead without a college degree.  Cough, cough....Electrical lineman.  Plumber.  Longshoreman...ok, any of the trades that one apprentices.  Independent business person (buddy did his own landscaping business - I could see doing ones own coffee shop, etc).  Assembly line worker at major Seattle aerospace company.  Enlistment in the military (for those, like Nords, although I believe he was an "O" not an "E", who are smart enough to do things right).  This is just what I can come up with off the top of the head.

None of those require college and all can (if you're good and work hard) pay very well and / or set you up well.

Yes, we're a nation of laws.  However, I think the law should be changed to say the age of adulthood is 21.   I and everyone I knew, was essentially brain dead at 18.   I might have been an adult in the eyes of the law, but I was far from it emotionally, financially and in every other way one could be considered an adult.    I think it would be wise to change the driving age to at least 18 (along with a robust public transportation/bike path system).   Along with raising the minimum age of enlistment to 21.   At least at that point people might have a better understanding of the various Geo-political motivations behind their possible/probable death, disability, ptsd, suicide.

Yes, there are several well paying jobs one can have as a person without a college degree.   I worked on construction sites during my college years, and was later employed as a regional airline pilot.   Neither of which required my degree.    I'm an outlier though.    Just take a look at this graph.  http://www.businessinsider.com/college-vs-no-college-unemployment-rates-2013-6
There isn't a point during the great recession when college graduates go beyond a 5% unemployment rate.   While high school grads peak at more than twice that rate.    There really isn't much of an economy for high school grads anymore, thus we should encourage our off spring to pursue higher education.   Unless they've done some massive research and have chosen a field that would allow them to work for a decent salary even at the point that their bodies don't respond to physical labor anymore.

I obviously have personal feelings about this issue.   I've encountered lots of people, maybe even my own mother, that love having small children they can show off and tell what to do.   But they start to get bored with them once they begin to grow.    All the sudden they're not so cute and malleable anymore.   I personally feel that in the later adolescent years children are just as susceptible to danger as toddlers and infants are.   Thus they require a parents guidance and finances as much as a younger child does.   I simply don't understand what the point of having children is, if you're going to cut them off at 18 which is well before most people can begin to establish a life for themselves. 

As long as my 2 children are advancing in their lives, they'll always have my emotional support and financial to a certain extent.   I should hope that they'll also take care of me when I reach a point that I'm not longer able to care or make decisions for myself.

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4047
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2014, 10:10:55 PM »
Sorry you find my views sexist...that daughters should be protected from being mistreated sexually. I guess I have seen plenty of statistics that prove that they do need to be protected from offenders.

I think the problem here may stem from differing definitions of 'mistreatment' and 'offender'.  I happen to think that consensual (IOW I'm not talking aboout rape here) sex is basically a pretty good thing.  If two teens decide they want to have sex, and they have birth control &c, then I think that's just fine.  Nobody's being mistreated, and there's no offense.

I'd even go further, and suggest that the world would be a much nicer place if certain people weren't so sexually repressive.  To take an extreme case, would all those Islamic jihadist types be so interested in blowing themselves up to get to Paradise and their 72 virgins, if they were getting laid regularly in the real world?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 11:42:20 AM by Jamesqf »

Nords

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3216
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Oahu
    • Military Retirement & Financial Independence blog
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2014, 10:21:18 PM »
I'll further call bullshit on the assertion in the original quoted post that a 21 y/o can't get ahead without a college degree.  Cough, cough....Electrical lineman.  Plumber.  Longshoreman...ok, any of the trades that one apprentices.  Independent business person (buddy did his own landscaping business - I could see doing ones own coffee shop, etc).  Assembly line worker at major Seattle aerospace company.  Enlistment in the military (for those, like Nords, although I believe he was an "O" not an "E", who are smart enough to do things right).  This is just what I can come up with off the top of the head.
None of those require college and all can (if you're good and work hard) pay very well and / or set you up well.
I signed up for the U.S. Naval Academy at 17, with just as much idea what would happen there as most recruits have about boot camp.  I gave up a chance to attend Carnegie-Mellon University (my "safety" school) so the term "smart" probably isn't applicable to my logic.  It was just the irresistible challenge.

Many students finish high school without feeling ready for college.  In my opinion, the #1 way to make them feel ready for college is a military enlistment.  The military culture strongly encourages getting a college degree (whether you're officer or enlisted) and frankly the college degree is a great incentive to get out of the military (especially with state's veterans scholarships or the GI Bill).  Once you've seen a few places in the third world, you keenly undertand the value of any education.  Regardless of how it happens, the military experience makes servicemembers appreciate everything that college offers.

Despite decades of academic accreditation, many would claim that a service academy is not the equivalent of a "real" college degree.  Some people feel the same way about the service schools which award graduate degrees, like the Naval Postgraduate School.  About the only difference that I can see between my USNA experience and my daughter's NROTC experience is that I can shrug off a flamesprayed shotgun blast to the face.  That's a nice skill to have in the fleet, but I sure hope it's less necessary today than it was during my millennium.

Kriegsspiel

  • Guest
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2014, 10:40:06 PM »
I'd even go further, and suggest that the world would be a much nicer place if certain people weren't so sexually repressive.  To take an extreme case, would all those Islamic jihadist types be so interested in blowing themselves up to get to Paradise and their 72 virgins, if they were getting laid regularly in the real world?

Ahh yes, the Cpl. Persons argument!

Quote from: Cpl Ray Persons
Look at this shit. How come we can't ever invade a cool country, with like chicks in bikinis, you know? How come countries like that don't ever need Marines? I'll tell you why. It's lack of pussy that fucks countries up. Lack of pussy is the root fucking cause of all global instability. If more hajis were getting quality pussy, there'd be no reason for us to come over here and fuck 'em up like this! Cause a nut-bustin' haji is a happy haji.

sheepstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2424
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2014, 05:38:17 AM »
Um, K.  When she is still in high school and a minor, though, we as the parents will be the ones making rules.  That's how it will be done in my house.  When she is 18 and going off to college, it will be her decision. Same rules will apply for my boys and girls on dating, but there will be rules implemented for minors living in my house.

No, it doesn't really have anything to do with whatever the rules are in the family.  As you said:
It has to do with teenage boys making their hormones/sex drive a bigger priority than respecting the young lady they are dating.  :)

If the problem is that the boy doesn't respect her control over her own body, it is not solved by saying that someone else has control over her body.

TickInTime

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2014, 07:35:03 AM »
Honestly, kids shouldn't be considered an adult until 21 at this point.   25 would be best because that's when your brain actually stops developing.     At least 21 though, because it's essentially impossible to get ahead at this point without a college degree.   And if you don't want to pay for your kids to go to college, there's no reason to have them in the first place.     Just like with a divorce, you owe your children or your spouse that made less money a leg up on their single life.   It's just fair.
This is the biggest crock of shit I've read in quite a while on these forums.
Not saying I necessarily agree, but are you disputing the biological assertion, or the legal conclusions? Or are you just a knee-jerk reactionary who thinks calling something a "crock of shit" is convincing?
Even assuming the assertions about brain development are true, that post is full of shit.

But why?  Articulate a little.

I mean, I agree with you (based on philosophical implications relating to agency), but what are your reasons for saying it's "a crock of shit"?  Rather than just posting that multiple times, can you try to add to the quality of the conversation, instead of subtracting from it?

Argh....I will take the bait and sink into this absolute insanity of a debate. Today is 3/8/2014, my 401k is maxed, IRA, and HSA fully funded. My net worth is growing at extreme rates. Mine is 6.43x what it was this time last last year.  My income is solidly into the 6 figure range and has realized at least 20% increases year over year for 5 years now vs my equivalent coworkers who make approximately 30-60k per year.

I dropped out of college.

Does this illustrate the bullshit that has been propagated a million times by media and now here on this forum and thread?  Yes the studies show that most dropouts don't succeed but how many successes where not degreed?  Steve Jobs, Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Ralph Lauren...


Daleth

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1201
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2014, 09:18:00 AM »
It says there's an outstanding balance on her high school tuition. It's reasonable that the parents need to pay that part according to my hand-waving knowledge of contract law. Other than that, holy crap is this child a brat.

My thoughts exactly. Not only are parents generally supposed to see their kids through high school, they signed a contract with the school before their daughter took off; the fact that she's now living with a friend doesn't get them out of that contract.

Other than that, all I can think is that she's seriously shooting herself in the foot as far as college applications go. I don't think universities generally go for obvious brats.

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4047
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2014, 11:51:15 AM »
If the problem is that the boy doesn't respect her control over her own body, it is not solved by saying that someone else has control over her body.

If the boy doesn't respect her control over her own body, that's rape.  But what we seem to be discussing is parents - mainly fathers - who don't want to respect their daughters' control over their own bodies.   So why is that not equally reprehensible?

sheepstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2424
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #76 on: March 08, 2014, 01:50:50 PM »
If the problem is that the boy doesn't respect her control over her own body, it is not solved by saying that someone else has control over her body.

If the boy doesn't respect her control over her own body, that's rape.  But what we seem to be discussing is parents - mainly fathers - who don't want to respect their daughters' control over their own bodies.   So why is that not equally reprehensible?

I'm not sure if I wasn't clear or if you're chiming in with agreement.  Because what you're saying is what I mean.

Momto5, again, it's not about whatever boundaries you want to set.  We tell kids they can't do lots of things with their bodies, I don't see that sexuality should necessarily be a special exception.  Not being a parent, that's about as far I can think about it for now.
However, if you and your daughters understand the rules, then they become her rules.  (And if she refuses to accept them, I'd expect you to deny permission to date all together, just like with any other activity.)  If a guy goes too far without her permission on a date, I would certainly expect you as her parents to bear down on him with the anger and violence of a thousand hells.  What all the "rules for dating my daughter" jokes imply instead is a an adversarial and infantilizing relationship.  If your daughter has sex with a guy of her own free will, then you can get angry as you like with her, but not the guy.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4765
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2014, 03:04:32 PM »
I'll further call bullshit on the assertion in the original quoted post that a 21 y/o can't get ahead without a college degree.  Cough, cough....Electrical lineman.  Plumber.  Longshoreman...ok, any of the trades that one apprentices.  Independent business person (buddy did his own landscaping business - I could see doing ones own coffee shop, etc).  Assembly line worker at major Seattle aerospace company.  Enlistment in the military (for those, like Nords, although I believe he was an "O" not an "E", who are smart enough to do things right).  This is just what I can come up with off the top of the head.
None of those require college and all can (if you're good and work hard) pay very well and / or set you up well.
I signed up for the U.S. Naval Academy at 17, with just as much idea what would happen there as most recruits have about boot camp.  I gave up a chance to attend Carnegie-Mellon University (my "safety" school) so the term "smart" probably isn't applicable to my logic.  It was just the irresistible challenge.

Many students finish high school without feeling ready for college.  In my opinion, the #1 way to make them feel ready for college is a military enlistment.  The military culture strongly encourages getting a college degree (whether you're officer or enlisted) and frankly the college degree is a great incentive to get out of the military (especially with state's veterans scholarships or the GI Bill).  Once you've seen a few places in the third world, you keenly undertand the value of any education.  Regardless of how it happens, the military experience makes servicemembers appreciate everything that college offers.

Despite decades of academic accreditation, many would claim that a service academy is not the equivalent of a "real" college degree.  Some people feel the same way about the service schools which award graduate degrees, like the Naval Postgraduate School.  About the only difference that I can see between my USNA experience and my daughter's NROTC experience is that I can shrug off a flamesprayed shotgun blast to the face.  That's a nice skill to have in the fleet, but I sure hope it's less necessary today than it was during my millennium.
Given the stats about rape/sexual assault, I would NEVER recommend that my daughter go into the military.  Granted, I won't pay for her to stay in the dorms for the same reasons (though the stats are better 25% vs 33%).  71% of PTSD filed by female veterans is because of the assault and inability to get away from their attacker(s).   There is no reward worth that risk.

Undecided

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1088
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2014, 06:19:08 PM »
Honestly, kids shouldn't be considered an adult until 21 at this point.   25 would be best because that's when your brain actually stops developing.     At least 21 though, because it's essentially impossible to get ahead at this point without a college degree.   And if you don't want to pay for your kids to go to college, there's no reason to have them in the first place.     Just like with a divorce, you owe your children or your spouse that made less money a leg up on their single life.   It's just fair.
This is the biggest crock of shit I've read in quite a while on these forums.
Not saying I necessarily agree, but are you disputing the biological assertion, or the legal conclusions? Or are you just a knee-jerk reactionary who thinks calling something a "crock of shit" is convincing?
Even assuming the assertions about brain development are true, that post is full of shit.

But why?  Articulate a little.

I mean, I agree with you (based on philosophical implications relating to agency), but what are your reasons for saying it's "a crock of shit"?  Rather than just posting that multiple times, can you try to add to the quality of the conversation, instead of subtracting from it?

Argh....I will take the bait and sink into this absolute insanity of a debate. Today is 3/8/2014, my 401k is maxed, IRA, and HSA fully funded. My net worth is growing at extreme rates. Mine is 6.43x what it was this time last last year.  My income is solidly into the 6 figure range and has realized at least 20% increases year over year for 5 years now vs my equivalent coworkers who make approximately 30-60k per year.

I dropped out of college.

Does this illustrate the bullshit that has been propagated a million times by media and now here on this forum and thread?  Yes the studies show that most dropouts don't succeed but how many successes where not degreed?  Steve Jobs, Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Ralph Lauren...

When you called a post that made multiple and distinct claims (some factual, some opinions) "a crock of shit," we had no idea what you meant, what piece was a problem, or why. It turns out that you were focused on one of the opinions, not the factual claim about brain development. How were we supposed to know that?


Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4047
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2014, 10:01:39 PM »
If the problem is that the boy doesn't respect her control over her own body, it is not solved by saying that someone else has control over her body.

If the boy doesn't respect her control over her own body, that's rape.  But what we seem to be discussing is parents - mainly fathers - who don't want to respect their daughters' control over their own bodies.   So why is that not equally reprehensible?

I'm not sure if I wasn't clear or if you're chiming in with agreement.  Because what you're saying is what I mean.

Definitely agreeing.


Quote
What all the "rules for dating my daughter" jokes imply instead is a an adversarial and infantilizing relationship.

I don't see it as infantilizing at all.  Rather - since it is almost invariably fathers doing it - I see it as repressed sexual jealousy/possessiveness.
 

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28059
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2014, 11:52:00 PM »
When you called a post that made multiple and distinct claims (some factual, some opinions) "a crock of shit," we had no idea what you meant, what piece was a problem, or why. It turns out that you were focused on one of the opinions, not the factual claim about brain development. How were we supposed to know that?

+1.  I didn't even consider you were talking about the part of the post relating to needing college to get ahead.  Naturally that's bullshit and I think the vast majority would agree, so no need to go to the mattresses on that one.

Thanks for clarifying though.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with two kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

hownowbrowncow

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 92
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #81 on: March 09, 2014, 01:27:50 PM »
It says there's an outstanding balance on her high school tuition. It's reasonable that the parents need to pay that part according to my hand-waving knowledge of contract law. Other than that, holy crap is this child a brat.

My thoughts exactly. Not only are parents generally supposed to see their kids through high school, they signed a contract with the school before their daughter took off; the fact that she's now living with a friend doesn't get them out of that contract.

Other than that, all I can think is that she's seriously shooting herself in the foot as far as college applications go. I don't think universities generally go for obvious brats.

Actually according to several articles, the parents notified the school in the fall (ie before the withdrawal deadline) they would not be paying for the spring semester so I'm not sure they need to be on the hook for that.  I'm guessing she is in an area with decent to excellent public high schools so she could have transferred.  Every child should get a high school education NOT necessarily an expensive private school education.

On that note, I think it's horrible this school is enabling (what seems to me at least) this girl's epic tantrum.  If were  a parent paying tuition there*, I would be so pissed that she's getting a free ride for the semester (so far) while I'm selling out big bucks for my kid to get the same education. 

I'm in my 30s so in btwn this girl and her parents' generation and it's making me feel old that I'm siding with the parents.  By all accounts they provided her with a very cushy life.  She wants the benefits without any boundaries.  If you  read of any the emails she sent them, you'll see what I mean.

If I were an admissions counselor at any of the colleges she applied to, I'd immediately put her in the reject pile/rescind any acceptance. 

*1) I was a proud public school kid k-12.  Lucky for me my parents bought a house in one of the state's top school districts before I was born. 2) No kids myself but if I ever have any I will make sure to do the same.  It always baffled me how people pay so much $$$ to send their kids to fancy pants private schools.  I'd rather deal with a mortgage that is tax deductible (or at least pay rent in the school district) than paying five figures for school with no tax benefits.  But that's a discussion for another thread.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 01:31:25 PM by hownowbrowncow »

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4765
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #82 on: March 09, 2014, 01:33:11 PM »
It says there's an outstanding balance on her high school tuition. It's reasonable that the parents need to pay that part according to my hand-waving knowledge of contract law. Other than that, holy crap is this child a brat.

My thoughts exactly. Not only are parents generally supposed to see their kids through high school, they signed a contract with the school before their daughter took off; the fact that she's now living with a friend doesn't get them out of that contract.

Other than that, all I can think is that she's seriously shooting herself in the foot as far as college applications go. I don't think universities generally go for obvious brats.

Actually according to several articles, the parents notified the school in the fall (ie before the withdrawal deadline) they would not be paying for the spring semester so I'm not sure they need to be on the hook for that.  I'm guessing she is in an area with decent to excellent public high schools so she could have transferred.  Every child should get a high school education NOT necessarily an expensive private school education.

On that note, I think it's horrible this school is enabling (what seems to me at least) this girl's epic tantrum.  If were  a parent paying tuition there*, I would be so pissed that she's getting a free ride for the semester (so far) while I'm selling out big bucks for my kid to get the same education.

I'm in my 30s so in btwn this girl and her parents' generation and it's making me feel old that I'm siding with the parents.  By all accounts they provided her with a very cushy life.  She wants the benefits without any boundaries.  If you read of any the emails she sent them, you'll see what I mean.

*1) I was a proud public school kid k-12.  Lucky for me my parents bought a house in one of the state's top school districts before I was born. 2) No kids myself but if I ever have any I will make sure to do the same.  It always baffled me how people pay so much $$$ to send their kids to fancy pants private schools.  I'd rather deal with a mortgage that is tax deductible (or at least pay rent in the school district) than paying five figures for school with no tax benefits.  But that's a discussion for another thread.
I think that is why you don't understand.  I was a private school kid.  Parents sign up for the year, not a semester.  And if they don't remove you prior to a deadline prior to the beginning of the year (which depends on the school and in all the schools in my experience was prior to the first day of school), they are on the hook for the whole year.
ETA:  You could not transfer in my area without parental signature, just FYI.

hownowbrowncow

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 92
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #83 on: March 09, 2014, 03:27:16 PM »
While that was the case for your school Gin1984, these documents show it was on a semester basis for her school. 

http://www.nj.com/morris/index.ssf/2014/03/court_papers_detail_family_history_of_nj_teen_suing_parents.html

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4765
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #84 on: March 09, 2014, 03:36:06 PM »
While that was the case for your school Gin1984, these documents show it was on a semester basis for her school. 

http://www.nj.com/morris/index.ssf/2014/03/court_papers_detail_family_history_of_nj_teen_suing_parents.html
You can pay by semester, but the signed agreement when you start school is per year.  Your contract with the school says that you agree to the year of tuition paid in monthly or semester increments.  It is like leases where they say the lease is X amount broken up into 12 equal payments of Y.  It is the same as my Catholic school. 

hownowbrowncow

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 92
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #85 on: March 09, 2014, 03:55:46 PM »
Quote
Further, as the Contract (attached to-the Certification of Rachel Canning as part of

I Exhibit permits a student to withdraw voluntarily, requiring only the semester

they attend to be paid, there is no contractual violation in any event. The school was
given notice of the withdrawal for the second semester and tuition was paid in full
for the first semester of the school year, thus the defendants complied. with their
obligation.

Ok so I read that as they didn't violate any year long agreement.  My bad for not understanding - I'll blame it on being from a public school background.  :)


MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3519
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #86 on: March 09, 2014, 05:48:18 PM »
So, not necessarily that all parents must always pay for their kids college, but if you promised you would and then didn't, than that's the real issue. What do you guys think???
Wouldn't this type of promise also imply, "Assuming things continue as is"?  I mean, the promise to pay for college would assume that the student continues to study in high school, etc.  A huge change in lifestyle could potentially negate such a promise. 

Plus, it's a verbal promise.  How binding is that?

We all get that you think she should be considered an adult because she's 18. The point that you originally missed and continue to miss is that that's not necessarily true in NJ under current law, she may not be an adult by their definition.

You should take a little more time to understand what people are saying before charging in to argue with them.
Hmmm, we all consider 18 to be an adult, but WHY?  Where is it written?  Upon what is that age based? 


Nords

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3216
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Oahu
    • Military Retirement & Financial Independence blog
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #87 on: March 09, 2014, 11:40:50 PM »
Given the stats about rape/sexual assault, I would NEVER recommend that my daughter go into the military.  Granted, I won't pay for her to stay in the dorms for the same reasons (though the stats are better 25% vs 33%).  71% of PTSD filed by female veterans is because of the assault and inability to get away from their attacker(s).   There is no reward worth that risk.
I agree that the military has a problem with sexual assault.

I'm not so sure whether the military's problem is worse than the civilian world, or just more visible.  I'm also not sure which culture equips their personnel with better tools to handle the issue-- can women in the civilian world file a PTSD claim for assault and inability to get away from their attackers?

I can report that my NROTC daughter's had far fewer problems with the military than she's had with college, and far fewer problems than her civilian classmates have had with their internships and jobs.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4765
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2014, 06:55:56 AM »
Given the stats about rape/sexual assault, I would NEVER recommend that my daughter go into the military.  Granted, I won't pay for her to stay in the dorms for the same reasons (though the stats are better 25% vs 33%).  71% of PTSD filed by female veterans is because of the assault and inability to get away from their attacker(s).   There is no reward worth that risk.
I agree that the military has a problem with sexual assault.

I'm not so sure whether the military's problem is worse than the civilian world, or just more visible.  I'm also not sure which culture equips their personnel with better tools to handle the issue-- can women in the civilian world file a PTSD claim for assault and inability to get away from their attackers?

I can report that my NROTC daughter's had far fewer problems with the military than she's had with college, and far fewer problems than her civilian classmates have had with their internships and jobs.
There is a research from a researcher who is considered the top research in his field, David Lasik, who has done research starting within the college environment then moved to the military.  Based on his research (which the military seems to agree with because they have contracted him multiple times), the rate of assault is higher in the military.  A major part of that is that rapists reoffend.  In his research they found that most men did not assault but the ones that did in college (18-25) had an average of 6 rapes at that time (it really was 5. something but it was rounded up). 
In the military, these kids stay in and have a career and gain power vs college where they leave (one possible reason) and in college you can get away (even if it means you drop out), whereas the research shows that PTSD happens because the military does not remove the assaulter nor allow the victim to be moved (in many cases).   The majority of women do not have PTSD in civilian life but when 71% off all female veterans have PTSD based on being assault and the INABILITY to remove themselves that does show a difference between civilian life and military.  You can get away in the military unless command believes you.
I am not saying that civilian "culture" is good, it is still a rape culture and damn unsafe but based on the research done by Lasik and other foremost psychological researchers, it is significantly (this was determined via stats) more unsafe for a female within the military (excluding outside effects like war etc, so day to day living) than for females within most US civilian populations.  And based on that, I would not have my daughter go through that, for ANY reward. 
I am not trying to convince anyone, the only one I had to convince was my husband and he is a researcher so I just gave him the studies.  But, when someone says "oh just go in the military", I will say that I have good reasons for not encouraging my daughter or any young female.

Nords

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3216
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Oahu
    • Military Retirement & Financial Independence blog
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2014, 09:39:07 AM »
I am not trying to convince anyone, the only one I had to convince was my husband and he is a researcher so I just gave him the studies.
Can you share the links to those studies?

galliver

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1891
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #90 on: March 10, 2014, 12:25:22 PM »
...when someone says "oh just go in the military", I will say that I have good reasons for not encouraging my daughter or any young female.

Really, I would say that the choice to go in the military or not is a very personal one and it should never be the only way available for students without the liquid assets to fund college. Oddly, I have no problem working on research projects, etc funded by the military as long as they aren't on actual weapons, but I would feel extremely uncomfortable working for the military directly (even if it was in a non-combat capacity).

JohnGalt

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 482
  • Age: 34
  • Location: TX
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #91 on: March 10, 2014, 01:01:56 PM »
Initial ruling: Parents don't have to pay.

http://gawker.com/parents-wont-have-to-give-allowance-to-the-daughter-wh-1536906243

They're due back in court in April to figure out if she's emancapated or not.

Is anyone else wondering if this is really just some elaborate plot to get her defined as emancipated for financial aide purposes?

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4765
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2014, 01:36:01 PM »
I am not trying to convince anyone, the only one I had to convince was my husband and he is a researcher so I just gave him the studies.
Can you share the links to those studies?
Here is Dr Lisak's PDF: http://www.terrywilliamsclemency.com/Lisak_CV_Feb2012.pdf
Publications start on page 5.  Legally I can't share the whole articles, but I can share PDFs or links if you want.

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2014, 01:47:22 PM »
Honestly, kids shouldn't be considered an adult until 21 at this point.   25 would be best because that's when your brain actually stops developing.     At least 21 though, because it's essentially impossible to get ahead at this point without a college degree.   And if you don't want to pay for your kids to go to college, there's no reason to have them in the first place.     Just like with a divorce, you owe your children or your spouse that made less money a leg up on their single life.   It's just fair.
This is the biggest crock of shit I've read in quite a while on these forums.
Not saying I necessarily agree, but are you disputing the biological assertion, or the legal conclusions? Or are you just a knee-jerk reactionary who thinks calling something a "crock of shit" is convincing?
Even assuming the assertions about brain development are true, that post is full of shit.

But why?  Articulate a little.

I mean, I agree with you (based on philosophical implications relating to agency), but what are your reasons for saying it's "a crock of shit"?  Rather than just posting that multiple times, can you try to add to the quality of the conversation, instead of subtracting from it?

Argh....I will take the bait and sink into this absolute insanity of a debate. Today is 3/8/2014, my 401k is maxed, IRA, and HSA fully funded. My net worth is growing at extreme rates. Mine is 6.43x what it was this time last last year.  My income is solidly into the 6 figure range and has realized at least 20% increases year over year for 5 years now vs my equivalent coworkers who make approximately 30-60k per year.

I dropped out of college.

Does this illustrate the bullshit that has been propagated a million times by media and now here on this forum and thread?  Yes the studies show that most dropouts don't succeed but how many successes where not degreed?  Steve Jobs, Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Ralph Lauren...

First, it's fantastic that you've been able to achieve what you have without a degree.  That takes lots of work and a fair amount of intelligence, so good for you.

Now, you, along with everyone you mentioned above is an outlier.    Most people don't have the raw talent, motivation, life experiences necessary to create giant organizations or even salaries beyond $40,000 a year without some sort of formal education.   The data simply doesn't agree with your claims that most people without a formal degree are able to make as much as someone with a degree.   

Take a look at the link I posted above.    For college grads, there essentially wasn't a great recession.   Their unemployment numbers never topped 5% IIRC, while high school grads were topping close to 12% nationwide and nearly double that in other areas of the country.   Take a look at the average lifetime earnings differential between high school and college grads.    There simply isn't a large infrastructure that can accommodate low education workers in this country anymore.   

I'm not sure why you're projecting your personal, myopic view on society as a whole.   Feelings of inadequacy, obliviousness?   I'm not sure, you'll have to answer that.    The fact is that your argument simply doesn't line up with the widespread reality.

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4047
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #94 on: March 10, 2014, 02:14:13 PM »
Take a look at the link I posted above.    For college grads, there essentially wasn't a great recession.   Their unemployment numbers never topped 5% IIRC, while high school grads were topping close to 12% nationwide and nearly double that in other areas of the country.   Take a look at the average lifetime earnings differential between high school and college grads.    There simply isn't a large infrastructure that can accommodate low education workers in this country anymore.   

The problem here is that you are confusing "low education workers" with non-college grads.  The unemployment numbers lump everyone into the same pot, even though there's vast difference between a kid who dropped out of school at 16 to do/deal drugs, and one who (like my neighbors' kid) chose an electric lineman apprenticeship.   Likewise, you can find certain college degrees - often those for which 'unpaid internships' are the norm - which don't offer great employment prospects, either.

Luck better Skill

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Location: Virginia
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #95 on: March 10, 2014, 02:35:03 PM »

Hmmm, we all consider 18 to be an adult, but WHY?  Where is it written?  Upon what is that age based?

  To my knowledge all the courts of the nation state and federal will prosecute you as an adult at 18 years of age.  That is why citizen consider it the legal age.  There are some exceptions to the 18 years old adult criminal charge.
 
 

Nords

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3216
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Oahu
    • Military Retirement & Financial Independence blog
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #96 on: March 10, 2014, 03:24:37 PM »
I am not trying to convince anyone, the only one I had to convince was my husband and he is a researcher so I just gave him the studies.
Can you share the links to those studies?
Here is Dr Lisak's PDF: http://www.terrywilliamsclemency.com/Lisak_CV_Feb2012.pdf
Publications start on page 5.  Legally I can't share the whole articles, but I can share PDFs or links if you want.
Whatever you can share, here on the thread or via PM/e-mail, I'd appreciate it.

randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1374
  • Location: Denver
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #97 on: March 10, 2014, 03:53:28 PM »
Given the stats about rape/sexual assault, I would NEVER recommend that my daughter go into the military.  Granted, I won't pay for her to stay in the dorms for the same reasons (though the stats are better 25% vs 33%).  71% of PTSD filed by female veterans is because of the assault and inability to get away from their attacker(s).   There is no reward worth that risk.

I would be very careful when deciding which stats to believe about college sexual assault. There was at least one study that said someone had been sexually assaulted if they answered yes to "Have you ever regretted having sex the day after?" type questions. Gimme a break.

Also, wouldn't living in a dorm make someone less likely to be raped compared to an off campus apartment or house? You have at least one roommate in a dorm, help is much closer, and entry/exit is somewhat more controlled.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4765
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #98 on: March 10, 2014, 06:57:34 PM »
Given the stats about rape/sexual assault, I would NEVER recommend that my daughter go into the military.  Granted, I won't pay for her to stay in the dorms for the same reasons (though the stats are better 25% vs 33%).  71% of PTSD filed by female veterans is because of the assault and inability to get away from their attacker(s).   There is no reward worth that risk.

I would be very careful when deciding which stats to believe about college sexual assault. There was at least one study that said someone had been sexually assaulted if they answered yes to "Have you ever regretted having sex the day after?" type questions. Gimme a break.

Also, wouldn't living in a dorm make someone less likely to be raped compared to an off campus apartment or house? You have at least one roommate in a dorm, help is much closer, and entry/exit is somewhat more controlled.
The studies done by Dr. Lisak and his colleagues were done on the rapists themselves.  They were asked such things "have you ever held someone down so you could have sex with them, when he or she did not want to", "have you ever given someone alcoholic drinks, so he or she could not say no"?  Things like that, I can get the full list of questions tomorrow at work.  I did my undergrad in psychology, and do clinical and translation research for a living, I am quite capable of determining the validity of a research article. 
I would love to know which peer reviewed journal article you think has that kind of question that does not have additional variables.  I know of none, and I worked in this field for over ten years.
And in the dorm setting many people have access to the dorm room (RAs, roommates leaving doors unlocked, showers being unable to be locked).  At most universities, the dorms are one of the main epicenters of rape/sexual assault.  I don't know why you think entry/exit being controlled matters, the rapists are other college students. 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 07:03:14 PM by Gin1984 »

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4765
Re: High School Student sues parents for College Tuition
« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2014, 07:06:08 PM »
I am not trying to convince anyone, the only one I had to convince was my husband and he is a researcher so I just gave him the studies.
Can you share the links to those studies?
Here is Dr Lisak's PDF: http://www.terrywilliamsclemency.com/Lisak_CV_Feb2012.pdf
Publications start on page 5.  Legally I can't share the whole articles, but I can share PDFs or links if you want.
Whatever you can share, here on the thread or via PM/e-mail, I'd appreciate it.
I founded one open sourced article.
http://www.wcsap.org/sites/www.wcsap.org/files/uploads/webinars/SV%20on%20Campus/Repeat%20Rape.pdf
If you have any questions about methodology or terminology, feel free to ask.  And on that note, I am going to start posting this on a different thread (I'll start it when I find another open sourced article) so we stop derailing this thread.