The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: Sofa King on April 18, 2015, 12:25:51 PM
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When they agreed to the terms of their loans and signed on the dotted line. I guess these people thought because they went to college when they got out people would start throwing $$$$$ at them. Welcome to the real world! There are many who complain they are broke and can't pay their loan yet they keep shitting out baby after baby and wonder why. Some very interesting stories here. Site is updated with new stories all the time. http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/
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When they agreed to the terms of their loans and signed on the dotted line. I guess these people thought because they went to college when they got out people would start throwing $$$$$ at them. Welcome to the real world! There are many who complain they are broke and can't pay their loan yet they keep shitting out baby after baby and wonder why. Some very interesting stories here. Site is updated with new stories all the time. http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/
If they are posting on that website that means they have access to internet. Instead of posting about how hard they have it why not do a google search on "how to pay off student loans quickly". There are tons of stories and how-to's that give good advice. Or maybe they should use the studentdebtcrisis.org website to find people in the same town that they can share a house with to help defray cost and pay down student loans.
There are always ways to climb out of debt but it requires sacrifice. You can't keep shoveling money out the door the same old way and expect to come out on top when you have accrued massive debt. I find it hard to sympathize when I read these stories because I was in the same position once. I had massive debt, wife and kid, and I was the only income producer at the time. I managed to pay off my debt in 3 years by living on a tight budget and foregoing cable, cell, car, vacations, and avoiding eating out.
I think an MMM face punch is probably in order for 99.9% of the people who are posting on that website.
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Been saying this for years, but a degree does not prove that you're intelligent. Most people also happen to be whiners on top of it. Fuck your idea of your dream job and get one that pays your bills!
If my son doesn't have a passion by the time he's college age, I'd rather throw down $4k for a one month truck driving school and let him drive around for a few years earning a living instead of "finding himself" for $15-30k/year in tuition and housing. Thankfully, it only took one semester of college to realize it wasn't for me. I have an engineering mindset but I really have a hard time putting up with busy work (half of undergrad).
Compounding interest can be a beautiful thing or a nightmare. I prefer to let it work for me.
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Some of the loans posted weren't even that large and they have been paying them off for years and years. it shouldn't take a person who is making a decent salary 20 years to pay off a 39K in student loans.
I am somewhat sympathetic. I had no guidance at all for college. My parents were both high school drop-outs, and I am the only one of my siblings that went to college. My parents basically kicked me out at 18 and my mom encouraged me to take out as many loans as possible because she assumed a college degree would mean I was making big bucks. I knew I was going to have to pay whatever I borrowed back and having spent my life in poverty, I wasn't willing to be saddled with a bunch of debt. I had a good scholarship, but I still worked and applied for grants to minimize the amount of loans that I took out. I was responsible for books and room and board for my four years in school and got out with 8K in loans. I am so thankful I didn't listen to my mom. Many friends graduated with sky high loans and into an economy that tanked. I have mostly worked in the government and non-profit sector so my earnings have never been sky high, but I paid off the loans I had quickly and have had a lot more financial freedom than many who earn more.
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Here are a few of the stories told. I really have to wonder WTF were some of these people thinking. Alot of "oh poor poor me" going on.
1) I'm 37 years old and I owe over $200,000 in education debt. I went back to college after dropping out when I was younger. I completed my bachelor's at age 30 (2006) and my master's at age 32 (2008). I have yet to find a full time job in any field. The only jobs available would not pay enough for me to live in my area. I have done volunteer work after volunteer work to keep up skills, but no one will hire me. My self-esteem and confidence has taken a nose dive, and my anxiety about my future has become a disorder. Now I'm in a self-fulfilling cycle of lack of confidence, messing up an interview, then reaffirming my poor self-image. It's extremely frustrating. I have all these skills, and no one will give me a chance. I just want to be self-sufficient. Is that too much to ask?
Heather June 14, 2013 Rhode Island
2) In my 30's after paying off my undergrad degree I returned to University to become a Chiropractor. I met another Chiropractor and married a year before I graduated. My first child was born a week after graduation. After my wife graduated we moved overseas to Australia her home. Twins came shortly after. Due to poor exchange rate and income not growing as fast as we wanted, we were unable to keep up regular payments. A fourth child arrived in 2002. A divorce, in 2005, hit hard and several years later I went into personal bankruptcy- I was unable to write off my debt. I have been living on edge, paying for my children, and unable to borrow or pay off my loans which now have hit 150,000.00. I find it absurd that I was not able to write off my loans with banckruptcy . Now age 55 I wonder if I will ever be able to pay off these ratings and retire. I am incensed when I hear that the children of politicians do not have pay their loans. I would have paid off these loans if I had been able. MLL
Anonymous September 11, 2013
3) I am a single 57 year-old woman who went back to college when I was 48. I decided to go back to earn an education in a career that would help me fund my retirement as I spent most of my adulthood as a single parent and working as a counselor in the mental health field. I enrolled in a technical school who told me the average amount of time it took to finish the course was 2-3 years. I and fellow students found out later that the average time it takes is 5-7 years. Now, after 4 years in the program, I not only ran out of student aid to pay to finish the program, I am $65,000 in rating with Federal Student Aid loans and $15,000 in debt with private education loans and still working in the human services field getting paid $12.82 an hour. I have devoted my life to my kids and working as a care giver in the mental health field and will not even be able to support myself in retirement.
Anonymous September 12, 2013
4) My daughter went to an expensive school - NYU - Being the first in our family to obtain a 4 year degree was quite the reward for hard work. We knew it would be expensive and the school advised that she was not eligible for Government backed student loans but I was eligible for the Parent Plus Loans to cover her costs. As a single parent, I was not about to dash her dreams. She has now graduated, working at a job that pays minimum wage. I had to take my Social Security at the earliest age so that I could pay back the Parent Plus Loan. My entire Social Security check (with $50 leftover) goes to the loan. The 8% interest rate (after the .25% reduction for direct pay) means that even after 3 years of payment, the principal barely moves. I can not hope to pay this loan off in my lifetime, with never having the life enjoyment my SS may have provided. My daughter had hoped to relieve me of at least some of this debt, but she too has Perkins and Stafford loans to pay. The interest rate is sooo unfair and made 10 times worse that it is my Government who is taking it, after having worked 30 years for my State Government.
Kathy October 14, 2014 Schenectady, NY
5) I attended college as a single father with two young sons. I took out student loans while in college to help raise my sons. I used the money to pay for rent, utilities and groceries. That was over twenty years ago. I graduated with approximately $62000 in debt. I offered to make affordable monthly payments but the amount that I could afford was not enough for the lenders. They put my loans in default and began garnishing my wages. Since that time, more than 18 years ago, I have paid back over $130,000 on my $62000 debt and I still owe nearly $60,000. It is criminal what they do to us. I have made a student loan payment every two weeks (albeit a garnishment) for the last 18+ years. I teach at a community college and make an average living as a result of my education. I am thankful for what my education has afforded me, but my loans remain in default because I cannot afford the payment that they expect. It is a helpless feeling, one of being completely trapped.
Bruce Myers January 20, 2015 Illinois
6) I wanted a job as a physical therapist. The job requires that you get a doctorate now (this however does not mean you make more money as its field that pays based on years of experience). So I owed $167,000 in unsub and $47,000k in sub loans at graduation. The interest at 7% has accumulated to about $40,000-so I owe over $230,000. I am on IBR repayment and pay $600/month. The interest that accures every month is over $1000. So everytime I pay $600, $400+ gets added on to my loan. I will never be able to touch my principal at this rate. Why is my hard earned money going into someones pocket and making them rich instead of paying off my debt that I so desperately want to get rid of? Why am I being punished for trying to have a career and help the economy? Which max I may make $65k/yr in take home. Why is my boyfriends mortgage interest rate only 3.75% and I have 7% on my student loans? These equations just don't add up. I'm working towards public service loan forgiveness but now I understand that the amount forgiven may be capped, so the light at the end of my tunnel is disappearing :/
Geanna January 24, 2015 Salt Lake City, UT
7) I am more than $100,000 in school debt. My dream to ascertain a Ph.D in Organizational Behavior and become an Administrator in higher education is no longer viable. With my current student debt so high, I can't afford housing, a reliable car or everyday things like going out to dinner with my girlfriend. This is not the American dream, this is a nightmare. My Mom always told me getting a College degree will increase your earnings potential in the job market. This has not come to fruition. The only thing pursuing a degree in higher education has got me is: saddled in debt and stress. My dream is gone, the thing that remains is the collateral damage called school loans.
robert needles March 27, 2015
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Well, I don't find it hard to feel sorry for them. They meant well, they didn't intend to cheat anyone or be dishonest. They made unwise choices and now are stuck in a terrible cycle of debt. I don't think it helps to pour scorn on people who made unwise choices. I've made many in my day, not so much with money, but certainly in other realms, and it was sheer luck that I emerged fairly unscathed. If negotiating this complicated world were easy, more people would be better at it.
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I admit i feel a little sorry for #5.
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Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
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Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
This. Additionally parents and high schools push hard to go to college. They paint a very rosy picture of college life in general, and tell you that college degrees automatically mean a very comfortable wage and that jobs grow on trees if you only go to college...
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Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
This. Additionally parents and high schools push hard to go to college. They paint a very rosy picture of college life in general, and tell you that college degrees automatically mean a very comfortable wage and that jobs grow on trees if you only go to college...
I also wonder if the parents were like my mom who encouraged me to borrow as much as possible. She assumed that a college education meant big money. I am fortunate that my dad was always very anti-debt and I took after him. I could have very well found myself in a very similar situation.
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Fortunately I had a very well developed, deep distrust of "grown-ups" that had been formed and nurtured by parents and every teacher I ever had. I totally sh1tcanned that false yabba-jabba idea of College-as-Messiah. I asked questions. "How much? Best field of study? What's the payoff?" "Why the hell am i doing this, exactly?" Assholes (adolts) had no answers. Like a TV pitchman or someone on a hallucinogenic drug, just kept spouting the same "ya gotta go to college"... BECAUSE! mantra. Is it gonna cost me (a poor person with poor parents) money? Then why would I burden myself with it? I eventually got several degrees for almost no cost to me and none were for money. All fields of avocation. I was already getting paid. I was just "punching my ticket" and filling a square.
There are other ways to earn a living, make money, get a degree or other job training than force feeding yourself into college 3 months after high school.
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They made unwise choices and now are stuck in a terrible cycle of debt. I don't think it helps to pour scorn on people who made unwise choices.
This whole section the the board IS for people who made "unwise choices". Thats why it is called "wall of shame and comedy".
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I admit i feel a little sorry for #5.
Not me when he used the loan money for this. From #5: "I took out student loans while in college to help raise my sons. I used the money to pay for rent, utilities and groceries".
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Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
There are MANY people on this link who were adults who should have know better yet still took out HUGE loans. Many even after graduating went back and took out even more bigger loans to go back to school again. LOL!
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Random comments: I do feel sorry for some of them, up to a point. Perhaps the interest rates on student loans should be lower. (But the loans need to paid back, dammit!)
A lot of people complain about not having a "normal life", "having to drive a used car" and being unable to afford restaurants. Well, I think buying a new car is a bad decision no matter what your income bracket is! And I like MMM's view of restaurants: eating out is (mostly) for people who can afford to HIRE SOMEONE to cook, serve and clean up after them, not people with hair-on-fire debts.
Here's an interesting one:
"I served this country to protect the rights of everyone here, including myself. I'm 45, I don't own a house, I drive a used car and I pay student loans. Why are people born in this country paying interest on an education? I'm far from racist,(filipina girlfriend), but why am I paying for something I needed to improve and all can move here and live and go to school on my dime??! Interest is covering the government giving money away!"
1. Isn't there a government program in the US to help veterans go to college? Correct me if that's no longer the case.
2. Yes, drive a used car and pay off your loans. Absolutely. You are in debt.
3. Isn't that a racist comment? "I can't be racist because my girlfriend is nonwhite"?
4. Translation: Government money should pay for MY education! Not anyone else's!!
5. Apart from refugees, don't a lot of immigrants have to prove that they have means or can earn a living before they can immigrate? Many of them were educated in their home countries and are bringing their needed skills to the US.
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Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
This. Additionally parents and high schools push hard to go to college. They paint a very rosy picture of college life in general, and tell you that college degrees automatically mean a very comfortable wage and that jobs grow on trees if you only go to college...
Yes, that also goes to what crispy said.
Clueless teenager is true, our brains don't fully mature until the 20's. People who don't come from money and don't come from families who went to college are at an extreme disadvantage - they don't know how valuable a particular degree is - their parents say "just go to college" - they don't know how important networking is, and they often don't know how hard it is to pay off loans.
I didn't know ANY of that and my mom worked at a bank! But I'm just lucky I got a bunch of scholarships and had jobs and only had $11k in debt.
I feel especially bad for the guy who has paid back $130k and still owes $60k on an original $62k.
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Like many others cry babies on this site this one just sounds like she just doesn't feel like paying back the loan that was taken out. At 22 she can't work and pay off $32,000 in a reasonable amount of time? Many people take out car loans more than this and seem to find a way to pay it back.
"I am 22 and I just finished a 2 year hospitality diploma. I am now flat broke and over $32,000 in student debt. My dream is to travel the world and that is the whole reason I got into this tourism diploma. Ironically, this student debt is going to hold me back from travelling. It's crippling and I feel desperate and hopeless. I wish I had never gone to university. It's not worth it.
Kaitlin R April 1, 2015 Kamloops, BC"
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Wait what is a hospitality diploma? Is that a made-up thing that the diploma mill for-profit schools make up?
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Wait what is a hospitality diploma? Is that a made-up thing that the diploma mill for-profit schools make up?
Pretty much. Just like most degrees today (my opinion).
Take someone who thinks things can only be taught in school settings, add working class parents who hear you need to go to college, head to diploma mill, get "degree" for "Culinary Arts", end up making bread at Panera for $12/hr 30hrs/week (part time because employers don't want to pay benefits) with 30-40k student loan debt for a job you could've done after watching a 2hr training video and two weeks of OJT.
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No idea what that particular "hospitality diploma" involved, but the hospitality industry generally has to do with tourism. If you live in a region where tourism is big, the industry (hotel/restaurant, cruises, entertainment, guided tours, water sports, ziplining etc.) is the biggest sector employing people who don't have "higher" level skills and/or education.
I lived in LA for a while and I think such diploma programs were pretty common at the two-year colleges. (Edit: Mind you, I have no idea what they taught, or how the diploma correlated with employability!)
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I totally agree with the OP and especially about people shitting out kids like a Pez dispenser when they can't even afford their own way in life.
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I totally agree with the OP and especially about people shitting out kids like a Pez dispenser when they can't even afford their own way in life.
That's because you don't hear people whip out the 7Ps enough anymore: Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. ;)
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I feel no sympathy for them. Many as has been mentioned have relatively small debt under $50k, like a typical consumer sucker car loan. I had six figure student loan debt, now 5 figure. I dropped out because I couldn't afford to finish (finally figured out sunk costs), and was sick of the scam like my school stealing $17k from me in cahoots with Sallie Mae and the absurd scheduling where they only run some classes once a year out of 4 quarters year round classes despite high demand which combined with absurd prerequisites drags the thing out additional years.
So I had six figure debt, paid minimums a year and change and finally got serious and paid more, got sick of paying nearly$20k/yr interest, finally paid enough that I could refinance elsewhere, did that, and been juggling things for better interest since then and eventually ramped up to paying $3k+/mo. Just over 2 years and I'll be done with it, then another year or two of that and the mortgage will be paid off. Investments will take off at that point and FIRE won't be far off.
I see the typical types on that site at whiny people with a violent side they don't have the courage to act upon themselves. I ended up on their mailing list and they lobby and petition to use government violence to steal from the productive class to pay off their student loans for them. Absolutely disgusting. Staggering debt from bad decisions seems to either push people to desperation and lobbying for government to do their dirty work, or drive them to determination, as it did with me, to be frugal, dig out, and never be in a bad financial position again. No sympathy. Those who call for "student loan debt forgiveness", a polite way of saying government violence, deserve no sympathy. Buckle down and dig your way out. If I can do it as a dropout surely those with bachelors and masters degrees can.
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GetItRight's post is the first time that I have seen a system of required course prerequisites described as a "scam", but I actually think there is merit to that contention. The only real argument I can see in favour of mandatory prerequisites is if there is a large amount of demand for the class such that the school wants to filter out people less likely to be successful in the class in favour of those who would be more successful. However, if the demand is really that excessive, the school could just teach another instance of the class. I am sceptical that making prerequisites nonmandatory would have a significant effect on who enrolls in the class.
The way my school worked is that if you completed a class without having completed the prerequisites, you did not receive credit for the class, no matter how well you did. Nothing stopped you from enrolling in the class or attending it, you just wouldn't receive credit. If you wanted to take the class for credit, there was a tedious process where you could fill out a number of forms, provide a detailed argument of why you did not need the prerequisites, and then hope for the best as the application was adjudicated under unknown standards. You had to do this for each individual course.
I was not interested in complying with the official procedure, so I simply asked the department overseeing my degree program to waive all prerequisites for me. I met with the Associate Dean and he accepted my argument that there was no harm in allowing me to receive credit for a course that I had done well in. On that basis, he waived all prerequisites and I did not have to take any prerequisite courses during my university career. I would not have been impressed if I had actually been required to comply with the prerequisite system.
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Wow, those stories are horrifying. I wonder what a person has to be thinking when they go to private school on loans for a fashion degree. The thought of having your debt spiraling out of control, actively altering your life decisions is just...well, like I said, horrifying. I do feel sorry for most of them, though, because they just didn't know any better. It's not too late to fix, and I don't feel too bad for those that think living it up is a god-given right.
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I think I do sometimes have some degree of empathy for these whining people, if anything, because of how powerful the brainwashing of society can be to get an education at all costs and then get on the property ladder, pop out a couple of kids (despite the 6-figure debt) and give the newly created princes and princesses all of the experiences and fulfill all of their desires. I too was a product of that belief and, together with clueless parents, got a useless degree and racked up the huge sum of $15,000 student loans (hey, in the 90's, that WAS big money!). My husband came from the same type of background. Neither of us had any exposure to the MMM way and so, for a long time, lived like your average struggling citizen. However, we never popped out any offspring.
Now, in our late 30's and after working dead end jobs for meager pay have we been fortunate enough to"see the light" as it were. Someone touched on it and that's truck driving! Yes, two college grads have turned to trucking to achieve FI.
I've since had a real desire to introduce people who are struggling with student debt into the idea of trucking. In 2 years, a 2- person company team can earn enough to save about $120,000 (AND still have enough to live on). It's not easy though because this path is definitely seen as something"I could never do!" To add to my frustration, a lot of educated or aspirational people have this snobbery about trucking, almost as if one needs to sell his/her soul to the devil to become a trucker! Even though we're paid many many times better than your average cruise worker and even though our living conditions are unbelievably better, still, a cruise worker's job is judged as exciting and glamourous while ours is dirty and depressing.
I suppose that complaining on forums is very easy, asks nothing from the person and can provide relief for a second or two, but giving up one's home, training to drive a truck, staying out for weeks on end and living in a moving box actually requires effort and sacrifice.
I guess in the end, the old adage "You can lead a horse to water..." applies.
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A big part of the problem is that these loans are often presented as part of a "financial aid" package. Schools will even tout that "Everyone who goes here with a family income below $XXX receives full financial aid!"
It's all just BS if most of that "aid" is loans.
I am quite thankful that both my Mom and a boss during the time I was in college frowned pretty seriously on student loans. I was thinking about taking some for grad school, and both said "don't do it!" So, I lived in $13K a year (in retrospect quite comfortably) the whole time I was a grad student instead of letting banks loan me another $10K per year as the aid package suggested. On paper I was living below the poverty line and below the amount I needed to live according to the school's calculation. It meant staying away from expensive on-campus living/dining, sharing off-campus housing and utilities costs with roommates (5 people in a 3 bedroom apt), and very little money for things like clothes and luxuries like eating out. But I was really lucky to have gotten this advice.
Many schools charge a huge amount for on campus living, dining, and amenities. Many schools require students to partake in these inflated costs. For example, at the private school near me all undergraduate students are required to live on campus and have a dining plan on campus for at least 3 years. And then, when it's clear a student doesn't have anywhere near that kind of money, they put some "generous" financial aid package together that says "Congratulations! we are covering 90% of your costs with aid!" Most if not all of that "aid" is loans.
What a scam.
I do feel sorry for several of these people.
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Random comments: I do feel sorry for some of them, up to a point. Perhaps the interest rates on student loans should be lower. (But the loans need to paid back, dammit!)
A lot of people complain about not having a "normal life", "having to drive a used car" and being unable to afford restaurants. Well, I think buying a new car is a bad decision no matter what your income bracket is! And I like MMM's view of restaurants: eating out is (mostly) for people who can afford to HIRE SOMEONE to cook, serve and clean up after them, not people with hair-on-fire debts.
Here's an interesting one:
"I served this country to protect the rights of everyone here, including myself. I'm 45, I don't own a house, I drive a used car and I pay student loans. Why are people born in this country paying interest on an education? I'm far from racist,(filipina girlfriend), but why am I paying for something I needed to improve and all can move here and live and go to school on my dime??! Interest is covering the government giving money away!"
1. Isn't there a government program in the US to help veterans go to college? Correct me if that's no longer the case.
2. Yes, drive a used car and pay off your loans. Absolutely. You are in debt.
3. Isn't that a racist comment? "I can't be racist because my girlfriend is nonwhite"?
4. Translation: Government money should pay for MY education! Not anyone else's!!
5. Apart from refugees, don't a lot of immigrants have to prove that they have means or can earn a living before they can immigrate? Many of them were educated in their home countries and are bringing their needed skills to the US.
Seriously... statistically, immigrants work the hardest at the shittiest jobs.
All debt except subsidized debt is subject to interest. Anyone who served even 3 years of qualifying service in the military can generally get all their college for free; even if that weren't the case for him, he chose to take on this debt, with full knowledge that interest applied. And that interest doesn't subsidize these mythical immigrant welfare programs, it pays for the cost of running the loan program. I hope he didn't study economics because if he did he clearly wasted his time.
As a career military guy, I am fucking incensed every time I encounter this kind of entitled bullshit from people who think that their service entitles them to a blank check in perpetuity from the government. And it is interesting that said entitled bullshit is always tied up in xenophobia and general anti-"other" hysteria, total hypocrisy about government benefits to anyone else who earned them any other way, and a total lack of self-awareness about that hypocrisy. They rail against socialism, and in the next breath demand their school, healthcare, and lavish lifestyle 100% paid for till they die. Fuck. Him.
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I've since had a real desire to introduce people who are struggling with student debt into the idea of trucking. In 2 years, a 2- person company team can earn enough to save about $120,000 (AND still have enough to live on). It's not easy though because this path is definitely seen as something"I could never do!" To add to my frustration, a lot of educated or aspirational people have this snobbery about trucking, almost as if one needs to sell his/her soul to the devil to become a trucker! Even though we're paid many many times better than your average cruise worker and even though our living conditions are unbelievably better, still, a cruise worker's job is judged as exciting and glamourous while ours is dirty and depressing.
I suppose that complaining on forums is very easy, asks nothing from the person and can provide relief for a second or two, but giving up one's home, training to drive a truck, staying out for weeks on end and living in a moving box actually requires effort and sacrifice.
I guess in the end, the old adage "You can lead a horse to water..." applies.
People don't like to get out of their comfort zone.
I worked on out of town projects as a "travelling craft worker" for 3 years after the recession. Usually living in the cheapest (read: crappy) motel or rental house I could find depending on the duration of the project and we'd jam 3-5 guys in a 2bd, 1bath house to keep living costs down ($100-200/month). All I heard from people was "I could never do that", "That really sucks", "I could never leave my (spouse)", etc. Well, on my best year I knocked down 6 figures in 9 months.
Not bad for a guy with a high school degree and some course completion certificates.
I just started the process to get my Class A CDL. Two weeks ago, I got my medical card. Now, I'm waiting for a day off during the week to go take the written and get my permit.
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Absolutely I feel sorry for them. I had no idea what I was doing at 18 when I chose to go to a small liberal arts school. I am incredibly grateful that I came out with only $25,000 in debt, thanks to scholarships and my parents' support. Now that I'm 28 and about to finish paying off my loans I'm much wiser, but in a city and industry that view a master's degree almost as a basic requirement for most jobs. I feel incredible pressure to go back to school. The tension has been very stressful as I loathe the idea of taking on more debt, yet feel unable to boost my salary or take on more responsibilities without a damn master's degree.
In many of the cases above people were older but the overwhelming wisdom of the day is that a college degree is what will get you somewhere. They were doing what they thought was the right decision. Only recently is there starting to be a conversation about what kind of degree will get you ahead. I'm more angry at the education system that exploits people trying to get ahead through questionable marketing, while hiking tuition fees every year to pay for administrative salaries, while forcing a large portion of their actual educators to be on food stamps in order to survive.
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The first entry was enough to piss me off. The poster claims to have a bachelor's degree and "half" of a masters yet is unable to spell "necessary" correctly--and it's not a typo either. I've run into so many ostensible college graduates who can't spell, punctuate and/or use proper grammar, don't know the difference between "they're," "there" and "their," can't figure out a 15% tip on a restaurant check, etc. So annoying.
I remember back in the Occupy days when the local news interviewed a young woman who was complaining loudly about having six-figure student loan debt that she felt the government should forgive. She revealed that she and her husband hadn't worked in two years and they were surviving on handouts from their parents because "we're proud, we won't go on welfare." The camera panned back to show her holding on to a stroller with a toddler in it ... and she was VISIBLY PREGNANT. I almost bruised my face with the facepalm.
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Bzzzt: Good luck with CDL school! Just a bit of advice - while you're in school, get your background check and fingerprints done and study for your hazmat endorsement. As soon as you pass your final tests and go to the DMV for your CDL, take your hazmat test. Our company at least pays considerably more if you've got your hazmat.
BTW: I have a little blog if you are interested in finding out a little about what life on the road is like for a husband and wife team. (in case you have a SO who you might convince to give trucking a go!)
www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com
Karen
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Bzzzt: Good luck with CDL school! Just a bit of advice - while you're in school, get your background check and fingerprints done and study for your hazmat endorsement. As soon as you pass your final tests and go to the DMV for your CDL, take your hazmat test. Our company at least pays considerably more if you've got your hazmat.
BTW: I have a little blog if you are interested in finding out a little about what life on the road is like for a husband and wife team. (in case you have a SO who you might convince to give trucking a go!)
www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com
Karen
Love your blog! I would also like to see how you have fitted your rig out for full time living. Any photos planned?
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Pbkmaine: I purposely do not have photos just in case we may be in violation of company safety guidelines. For example, we use the top bunk as storage and to keep an extra 12-V fridge. Technically, that's not safe storing stuff on the top bunk.
Apart from that, we live quite simply. No fancy gadgets except an Ipod and laptop. We paid $150 for a year's internet access at the TA/Petro and don't have wandering Wifi. Our only cooking facility is 2 Roadpro stoves but they can do pretty much anything! The majority of our stuff is food and spices.
I enjoy "feathering the nest" by making cute bunting, making "wallpaper" by hanging a flowered cloth on the back wall, doing origami, if it doesn't cost, I will do it! My husband, happily, lets me make the truck as girly as I like!
Karen
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I do feel bad for many people with student debt. Yes, there are ways many of them could sacrifice to make extra payments towards it and yes many of them made bad decisions in where to go to school (private versus in-state), and what to major in (liberal arts vs, just about everything else), but I know that I would be in their position had it not been for my parents saving up and put me through college. I have no leg to stand upon.
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Wait what is a hospitality diploma? Is that a made-up thing that the diploma mill for-profit schools make up?
You can get a degree -- sometimes it's a diploma program, not a full-fledged degree -- in hospitality. That means you'd be qualified to work at a resort. You know, in the hotel industry,maybe on a cruise ship ... the hospitality industry. With this diploma you could be a party planner or work your way up to hotel manager.
I have a few high school seniors who've gone that route, and they all see it as a way to be on vacation all the time!
It's something an enterprising person could do with just a high school diploma.
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I have a few high school seniors who've gone that route, and they all see it as a way to be on vacation all the time!
It's something an enterprising person could do with just a high school diploma.
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"Enterprising"? Got sh1t to do with it. It depends on what the hiring dopes want to see. You got papers? good? No papers? Fock-off. Maybe an Eddie Haskell type could weasel his way in but normal people might need to spend something to get something. Employers are good externalizing costs.
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I totally agree that people need to take personal responsibility for these student loans. Anyone that was dumb enough to loan tens of thousands of dollars to someone who should never have been in college so they could get a degree that wouldn't result in a job that would allow them to pay that loan back should probably take a haircut on the value of their debt assets.
Unfortunately those dummies were us via our government. I'm doing my part by trying to vote out the people inflating this student loan bubble and the cost of college in general by making all that easy student loan money available. Make college free, restrict it to those who need to be there, shape up the K-12 educational system so those diplomas mean something to employers, and most of all get off my lawn.
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I guess I have a lot more empathy for these people then most of the posters on this thread. When I went to school tuition and room and board was reasonable and could be paid off via work and minimal student loans. I can't remember what the yearly damage was but I'm guessing it cost about $8k a year. Today, it's a disgrace what these Universities are charging. Not everyone is privy to wise counsel while they are 17 and 18 years old. There isn't an adult engaging in a constructive conversation with the student as to whether or not they have any prospects of snagging a job to pay off that student loan. Most people walk into that situation blissfully hoping for the best outcome.
I'm thinking that we are at the beginning of a new normal where people actually know of cousins and older friends in student loan hell and will question higher education's return on investment for their personal set of circumstances.
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Bzzzt: Good luck with CDL school! Just a bit of advice - while you're in school, get your background check and fingerprints done and study for your hazmat endorsement. As soon as you pass your final tests and go to the DMV for your CDL, take your hazmat test. Our company at least pays considerably more if you've got your hazmat.
BTW: I have a little blog if you are interested in finding out a little about what life on the road is like for a husband and wife team. (in case you have a SO who you might convince to give trucking a go!)
www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com
Karen
I'm luckier than most. The company I work for is in the utility industry, so while I won't be hauling freight, there is a lot of large equipment to move around. If I get my permit, they'll set me up with someone to get my hours in and let me take a truck/trailer for the test. I don't NEED it right now, but it's one hell of a backup plan, especially if someone else is paying for it. The more you're capable of doing, the more valuable you are to have around.
Nice blog, I'll have to try to stop by once in a while.
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No idea what that particular "hospitality diploma" involved, but the hospitality industry generally has to do with tourism. If you live in a region where tourism is big, the industry (hotel/restaurant, cruises, entertainment, guided tours, water sports, ziplining etc.) is the biggest sector employing people who don't have "higher" level skills and/or education.
I lived in LA for a while and I think such diploma programs were pretty common at the two-year colleges. (Edit: Mind you, I have no idea what they taught, or how the diploma correlated with employability!)
I wonder. I remember meeting a woman when we were on our honeymoon (in Antigua) who worked in hospitality. She traveled a lot and worked at resorts, hotels, casinos, etc. I don't know how much she made but I assume she was able to pay her bills. (Saw her a few months later when she relocated to DC.) I figure it's a living, but maybe you don't get to pick where you go?
One of my engineering coworkers in a different office took some time off. Her husband was in the hotel industry, and he got a job and relocated to St Barts or St Maarten. So she got a job at the hotel, just working. They LOVED her because of her work ethic (there is such a thing as island time). She worked there for a couple of years.
My husband's roomie in college was a "hotelie" (hotel school graduate). It's a thing.
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My husband's roomie in college was a "hotelie" (hotel school graduate). It's a thing.
There are Hotel School Grads and then there are hotel school grads. I suspect a Cornell hospitality/hotel degree may be worth taking out some loans. An associates' degree from your friendly neighborhood community college, maybe not so much. (And, perversely, the amount of debt per year for a student from a typical working class family is likely going to be less at Cornell--assuming s/he is accepted.)
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They made a bad decision at a point in their lives that they didn't fully understand what their future selves were going to have to endure as a consequence. I feel bad for them in this respect. However I had the same decision to make at the same point in my life and I didn't choose to go the route they chose because I was afraid of encumbering my future self with debt.
I do remember feeling angry about the student loans because I felt that the people taking out the super high loans to pay for college were driving up the price of college. Whether or not that was true, it was how I felt. If loans weren't so easily available, it seems like colleges wouldn't be able to keep increasing the tuition at the rate that they do.
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I think I do sometimes have some degree of empathy for these whining people, if anything, because of how powerful the brainwashing of society can be to get an education at all costs and then get on the property ladder, pop out a couple of kids (despite the 6-figure debt) and give the newly created princes and princesses all of the experiences and fulfill all of their desires. I too was a product of that belief and, together with clueless parents, got a useless degree and racked up the huge sum of $15,000 student loans (hey, in the 90's, that WAS big money!). My husband came from the same type of background. Neither of us had any exposure to the MMM way and so, for a long time, lived like your average struggling citizen. However, we never popped out any offspring.
Now, in our late 30's and after working dead end jobs for meager pay have we been fortunate enough to"see the light" as it were. Someone touched on it and that's truck driving! Yes, two college grads have turned to trucking to achieve FI.
I've since had a real desire to introduce people who are struggling with student debt into the idea of trucking. In 2 years, a 2- person company team can earn enough to save about $120,000 (AND still have enough to live on). It's not easy though because this path is definitely seen as something"I could never do!" To add to my frustration, a lot of educated or aspirational people have this snobbery about trucking, almost as if one needs to sell his/her soul to the devil to become a trucker! Even though we're paid many many times better than your average cruise worker and even though our living conditions are unbelievably better, still, a cruise worker's job is judged as exciting and glamourous while ours is dirty and depressing.
I suppose that complaining on forums is very easy, asks nothing from the person and can provide relief for a second or two, but giving up one's home, training to drive a truck, staying out for weeks on end and living in a moving box actually requires effort and sacrifice.
I guess in the end, the old adage "You can lead a horse to water..." applies.
I love this post! I have worked in career counseling for the government and non-profits, and I definitely tell people to consider a career in trucking. While it's not for everyone, it is a great career choice and their is a lot of money to be made. I know a couple who drove together after their children grew up. They were paid to see the country together as opposed to spending thousands buying an RV and traveling. I have always thought that was brilliant and quite Mustachian.
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With this problem being talked about ALOT now FOR YEARS all over the internet and in the media how much longer will people keep using the ignorance excuse of "I was young I didn't know any better? (even tho there seems to be just as many adults taking out loans who should know better). What will they say when still year after year these IDIOTS keeps taking HUGE loans out for degrees for jobs that pay shit even if they can find a job for what they went to school for. What will they say then? When will the "ignorance excuse" end? Cause people are still lining up in droves to take out these loans every day by the millions.
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My husband's roomie in college was a "hotelie" (hotel school graduate). It's a thing.
There are Hotel School Grads and then there are hotel school grads. I suspect a Cornell hospitality/hotel degree may be worth taking out some loans. An associates' degree from your friendly neighborhood community college, maybe not so much. (And, perversely, the amount of debt per year for a student from a typical working class family is likely going to be less at Cornell--assuming s/he is accepted.)
+1 My classmates at Cornell who were in the Hotel School had no problem finding jobs, and not just in the hospitality industry. If you qualify for financial aid, the Ivies have deep pockets.
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I worked in the student loan office at a private university (in other words, expensive) while I was in graduate school. On a daily basis I spoke w/ people who did not understand *at all* that they were applying for a loan, that they would have to pay in back, that they would have to pay it back even if they didn't graduate, that there was interest on the loan, etc. Many of these people were in their 30s and 40s - not just 18 year olds. Financial illiteracy is a very common problem. This was back in the 90s.
Now - well, I work in a field that requires a doctorate, and an internship from an accredited internship program prior to graduation- and the accredited internships will not take students from unaccredited programs. And you can't get a license to practice in my field w/o a degree from an accredited program and an accredited internship. Yet, there has been a proliferation of "professional schools" in the past 10 years or so that are unaccredited, provide no assistance with finding an internship, provide no viable clinical training prior to internship, and are extremely expensive (e.g. 70K+ per year). Generally, these schools have low thresholds for admission and happily produce students w/ no degrees (because they can't get an internship) and 200k+ in student loan debt. Are the students responsible for making poor choices in taking the loans and not doing adequate research about their field? Absolutely? Are the schools responsible for highly deceptive practices about the training they offer, the possibility of future employment in the field (about zero), and churning out people who will be financially unable to repay because they have no viable job prospects - yep. Absolutely. And it is much easier to get information about these schools and what they claim to offer than it is to get information about the realities of the field. And the government's willingness to allow these schools to continue to operate the way they have is a massive problem. (There is also a problem w/ "online only" universities that offer undergrad programs to military folks- rake in money and offer very sub par education).
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I think most people really donʻt understand loans and debt. I know I didnʻt when I was signing for my student loans. I honestly didnʻt think that 7% was a high interest rate. I had no other financial experience to compare it to, and I definitely didnʻt understand compound interest.
I just thank god that I didnʻt listen to my dadʻs advice. I got into an expensive graduate program that cost 100k for four years. I told him I wasnʻt going because I didnʻt want to incur that much debt. His response was that I was young enough that I would have decades to pay off the debt so donʻt worry about it. Um... isnʻt the point to avoid spending decades paying off a debt???
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Ok I have to jump in here because I have a hospitality degree. Yes many entry level jobs are lowing paying when you start but where you go from there is how good you are at not only your current job but your skills in networking and challenging yourself to take on new harder roles. Very much like other fields. At 32 i made over 200k last year. Now I know I am more of an exceptional story than an average one but there are executives in every industry including hospitality. I would advise any one who is considering hospitality degree to switch to a business degree as they are more flexible to find good jobs in other industries if you don't move up fast enough in hospitality.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I feel bad in one respect -- the U.S. government, as Senator Elizabeth Warren so adamantly points out, should not be using these students as a profit center. It's terribly short-sighted and counterproductive to a robust economy. When I graduated law school, Stafford loans were keyed to the 3-month T-Bill in such a way that they were at very reasonable rates*; they re-set every July 1, and are currently at 2.33%. In this low interest rate environment, it's criminal that the government is getting 4.66% (undergrad) and 6.21% (grad).
*From Wikipedia (old info): For variable rate loans, the rates are set annually using the price of the 91-day Treasury bill on the last Monday of May, and become effective for the following year on July 1. For fiscal year 2008-2009 the 91-day Treasury bill auctioned on May 27, 2008 at 1.905% (rounded to 1.91%) are used for the calculation.[4] On May 26, 2009 the 91-day Treasury bill was auctioned at an investment rate of 0.178%.[5] On July 1, 2009, the base rate for variable rate Stafford Loans were adjusted to 0.18%. Loans issued before July 1, 1998 were adjusted to a rate of 3.28%. Loans issued July 1, 1998–June 30, 2006 were adjusted to a rate of 2.48%.
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US student loans system is just broken IMHO, Canada's is 10000000000x better.
That said, it is crazy the amount these people will take on without knowing the consequences, and it's absurd that lenders/gov't allow it at those insane rates.
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Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
This. Additionally parents and high schools push hard to go to college. They paint a very rosy picture of college life in general, and tell you that college degrees automatically mean a very comfortable wage and that jobs grow on trees if you only go to college...
Yes, that also goes to what crispy said.
Clueless teenager is true, our brains don't fully mature until the 20's. People who don't come from money and don't come from families who went to college are at an extreme disadvantage - they don't know how valuable a particular degree is - their parents say "just go to college" - they don't know how important networking is, and they often don't know how hard it is to pay off loans.
I didn't know ANY of that and my mom worked at a bank! But I'm just lucky I got a bunch of scholarships and had jobs and only had $11k in debt.
I feel especially bad for the guy who has paid back $130k and still owes $60k on an original $62k.
No! This is bullshit, just plain and simple. I am one of those that graduated with 100k in debt (97 to be exact). My parents were, and still are terrible with money, and I had ZERO financial education. I learned, I read the looooooong ass federal borrowing promissory note, and the loan counseling that said this WILL have to be paid back at x interest rate and my high school algebra class was enough to calculate that payment.
You can't play the "stupid kid didn't know what they are getting into thing" I knew EXACTLY what I was getting into, chose a major strictly for it's earning potential (which was computer based and I had never even turned on a computer at the time), busted my hump to graduate in 4 years with a double major, while working, got a free ride to grad school, just in time to graduate into the beginning of the recession. I STILL paid them off inside of three years by working multiple jobs and living in a literal ghetto (house broken into 3 times, nothing worth stealing though, they finally gave up) while growing food in containers on my patio.
Sorry this is a topic I hear time and time again from my friends and peers and it pisses me off. "Oh poor me, I have so much student loan debt" I had the most out of anyone I knew, by A LOT, I am still the only one that has paid it off. I hear them complain about how the loan payments and child care payments and car payments really put a crimp on "fun", I've gotten, oh it must be soooo nice to have disposable income...yup, it is, but we don't earn any more then you guys, we just don't have car payments, or loan payments because we made HARD choices not too. I mentioned this to the last person (old college roommate) that was bitching to me just a few weeks ago, her response was, but I can't give up my stuff (ie phones clothes and other electronics are their weekness), and my toddlers NEED the 3/4 acre yard that her 700k house has.
So no, no pity from me on any of these, and a number of those posts make me want to go nuclear on how I shouldn't be responsible for paying back their piss poor lack of planning and willpower. Call it a lack of empathy..I know other people have told me I need to be sympathetic (and yes number 5 I have a minutia of pity for) but I call it a refusal to think someone else should be responsible for my personal decisions.
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Here's an interesting one:
"I served this country to protect the rights of everyone here, including myself. I'm 45, I don't own a house, I drive a used car and I pay student loans. Why are people born in this country paying interest on an education? I'm far from racist,(filipina girlfriend), but why am I paying for something I needed to improve and all can move here and live and go to school on my dime??! Interest is covering the government giving money away!"
1. Isn't there a government program in the US to help veterans go to college? Correct me if that's no longer the case.
2. Yes, drive a used car and pay off your loans. Absolutely. You are in debt.
3. Isn't that a racist comment? "I can't be racist because my girlfriend is nonwhite"?
4. Translation: Government money should pay for MY education! Not anyone else's!!
5. Apart from refugees, don't a lot of immigrants have to prove that they have means or can earn a living before they can immigrate? Many of them were educated in their home countries and are bringing their needed skills to the US.
Yes that guy sounded like and idiot, and a racist. Despite flaunting his non-racist credentials..
I went to (graduate) school here, I paid out of state tuition! My "home country" didn't just give me money to go to school. 70% or so they lent to me and I have to pay back. Albeit at a very low interest. The state give out student loans at their bond issue rate. I don't understand why the US doesn't do this (ok I have some idea..)
I had to prove my English proficiency, and that I had money to support my self in school. After that you have to have a job to stay. And then the company has to list the job for x weeks/months and prove that they could not find a suitable US citizen to fill it before you get permanent residency.
So his excuse is: "not my fault I got a useless degree. Damn furinrs took er jerbs!
(http://ih3.redbubble.net/work.7503629.1.sticker,375x360.they-took-our-jobs-black-south-park-v1.png)
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This is becoming huge in Canada as well. Since when did: "I am educated therefore automatically entitled to lots of money," become a thing? It's an arrogant stance of superiority. Since when does a degree guarantee you a six-figure salary? 40 years of teaching self-esteem has really paid off in attitude.
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I'm with Mishmash on this one. I wasn't exactly fully on the ball at 18 but I knew enough to read every sentence of the loan documents. (I came from low-income family without much in terms of money education. I think that is why I read the documents - because I didn't know shit.)
I also knew once I graduated that my $30k loans would cost me $60k if I made only the minimum payments. I can't remember if I did the math or if it was on something sent to me....I'm thinking it was on something they sent to me. I remember that being a kick in the ass - my first lesson in debt avoidance, the hard way.
I hated making student loan payments. But I kept telling myself it will get better once they are paid, that having a good education will be worth it in the end. Long story short: it was/is.
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I do feel for these people. University and college educations are marketed harder than Disney. People sign loans not fully understanding what they are signing and yes that is on them...but the deceptive nature of the 'sales' people is also deplorable. What kind of lender loans 260000K to people who don't have a job? That sounds like the lending policy of a back room loan shark. Why are these lenders not held to some level of accountability too? Surely the lender knows that the odds of these people paying back the full amount in their lifetime is zero. Perhaps university and colleges should have financial planning 101 as a mandatory course in the first year and explain to people how to read a contract, how to calculate interest and how to make a budget.
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This is becoming huge in Canada as well. Since when did: "I am educated therefore automatically entitled to lots of money," become a thing? It's an arrogant stance of superiority. Since when does a degree guarantee you a six-figure salary? 40 years of teaching self-esteem has really paid off in attitude.
+1 Where did this sense of entitlement come from? I guess I know the answer to that...
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+1 Where did this sense of entitlement come from? I guess I know the answer to that...
It's a malignant outgrowth part and parcel of The Cult of the Individual: I built that. There ain't no "we". Rugged Individualism. Credentialism. The whole corporate syphilis we've been succumbing to for 30-40-ish years. It is definitely not an outgrowth of "self-esteem" classes. Just the opposite.
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This is becoming huge in Canada as well. Since when did: "I am educated therefore automatically entitled to lots of money," become a thing? It's an arrogant stance of superiority. Since when does a degree guarantee you a six-figure salary? 40 years of teaching self-esteem has really paid off in attitude.
I remember reading an article several years about about some people who were pissed off because their particular PhDs were really only good for being a professor but the universities aren't staffing enough people to hire all the PhD graduates they are churning out. They thought universities should be required to expand their staff based on how many PhD students were graduating so that way all PhD students would have a job. And this would be good for everyone because with more teachers available we could start churning out more new PhD holders who were also entitled to jobs.
Colleges are rife with high self esteemed yet mediocre students. It is amazing to see someone failing in a subject but still proudly announce the reason they are failing is because they are actually so smart that the college isn't designed correctly to handle their level of genius. I remember one girl constantly failing math while blaming the university because she KNEW she was excellent at math. She insisted the teaching staff was so bad at math that it was causing her to get bad grades and fail the class repeatedly. High self esteem wins out every time.
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This is becoming huge in Canada as well. Since when did: "I am educated therefore automatically entitled to lots of money," become a thing? It's an arrogant stance of superiority. Since when does a degree guarantee you a six-figure salary? 40 years of teaching self-esteem has really paid off in attitude.
A STEM degree with good grades at a recognized college actually does practically guarantee you a six figure salary. Maybe this will change down the road, but right now that is the way things are.
So much for that Egyptology PHD you paid $120,000 to get.
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When I graduated law school, Stafford loans were keyed to the 3-month T-Bill in such a way that they were at very reasonable rates*; they re-set every July 1, and are currently at 2.33%. In this low interest rate environment, it's criminal that the government is getting 4.66% (undergrad) and 6.21% (grad).
WTF? My undergrad Stafford loans are at 6.8%! (Well, actually 6.55% because I got a 0.25% "discount" for paying them on time.)
I love how even your example of "criminal" interest rates (let alone reasonable ones) still manages to underestimate the reality.
: /
A STEM degree with good grades at a recognized college actually does practically guarantee you a six figure salary. Maybe this will change down the road, but right now that is the way things are.
No, it really fucking doesn't!
I have TWO STEM degrees from a university with a top-10 national ranking in both majors, but still managed to be unemployed for the better part of two years and haven't yet broken $70K five years after graduation. Granted, part of that was because I was trying to use the less-in-demand degree (to stay on track for a PE license) and because I wasn't willing to relocate, but still...
Two of my EE friends completely failed to find jobs in their field and ended up as sysadmin / Sharepoint developer types, and my AE friend ended up having to short-sell his house because the only job he could find was at Cessna, in Kansas.
Of my college friends -- all of whom are various kinds of engineers -- I would only expect two to be making 6-figures at this point. (One was a CS major who moved to the Valley, and the other was an EE who was such a genius that he could maintain a 4.0 while partying. Of course, due to that partying a big chunk of the latter's salary goes to child support....)
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Jack-- my staffords (now thankfully slain) were at a 6.99%, for unsubsidized and 6.25% for the "subsidized."
I knew they had to be paid back. I also knew that I really didn't have much choice but to sign on the dotted line or ask a private loan company for money if I wanted to go to college. I was an A and B student in high school, so I got some scholarships and grants, but full-ride scholarships are mostly for athletes and straight A types. I had to make up the difference somehow, and was already working to support my family of origin.
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I do find it shocking that an 18-year old, or 22-year-old, can borrow as much for an education based on theoretical future earnings from a theoretical degree, with an easy application, as I did in my 40s for a mortgage on my home that involved six weeks of paperwork by the bank, a ton of documentation and a major downpayment, and demonstrating a long and excellent credit history (that the bank STILL said was on the skimpy side because I was too conservative about credit cards). And the bank has something to take back if I screw up and don't pay!
I admit I feel for the ones who were 18 or 19 when they borrowed. Even when you have parents who went to college, the funding situation is so different these days that you may be getting bad advice. There are others, though, who could have avoided a lot of this with some simple research...
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A STEM degree with good grades at a recognized college actually does practically guarantee you a six figure salary. Maybe this will change down the road, but right now that is the way things are.
Not necessarily. A friend's job after graduation was 65k/year and that was the top offer out of 3. It required relocating and he only got that much because he interned there last summer while taking a summer school class 150 miles away 3 days/wk (due to a shitty advisor and mentioned required courses not being offered enough) and they saw how hard he worked to make everything happen.
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No, it really fucking doesn't!
I have TWO STEM degrees from a university with a top-10 national ranking in both majors, but still managed to be unemployed for the better part of two years and haven't yet broken $70K five years after graduation. Granted, part of that was because I was trying to use the less-in-demand degree (to stay on track for a PE license) and because I wasn't willing to relocate, but still...
Two of my EE friends completely failed to find jobs in their field and ended up as sysadmin / Sharepoint developer types, and my AE friend ended up having to short-sell his house because the only job he could find was at Cessna, in Kansas.
Of my college friends -- all of whom are various kinds of engineers -- I would only expect two to be making 6-figures at this point. (One was a CS major who moved to the Valley, and the other was an EE who was such a genius that he could maintain a 4.0 while partying. Of course, due to that partying a big chunk of the latter's salary goes to child support....)
Ok, maybe it is a west coast thing. I do not know if you can get a job in engineering with decent pay in Bumfuck, Wyoming.
Also, I should have qualified by saying you can get to a 6 figure salary after some experience (maybe 5 to 10 years) working.
I have ME, EE, CS friends all making 70k plus and the ones who have been working for a decade are definitely over $100k. My wife, with a Ivy league CS degree made $270k last year and she sucks at negotiating. A former fellow employee left where she works and went to an even higher paying job at Google with stock options and a $150,000 signing bonus.
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Ok, maybe it is a west coast thing. I do not know if you can get a job in engineering with decent pay in Bumfuck, Wyoming.
Also, I should have qualified by saying you can get to a 6 figure salary after some experience (maybe 5 to 10 years) working.
I have ME, EE, CS friends all making 70k plus and the ones who have been working for a decade are definitely over $100k. My wife, with a Ivy league CS degree made $270k last year and she sucks at negotiating. A former fellow employee left where she works and went to an even higher paying job at Google with stock options and a $150,000 signing bonus.
What you have is a hugely skewed perspective. Even the median software engineer salary (https://www.google.com/search?q=median+software+engineer+salary&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8) nationwide is only in the high 5-figures, and most other kinds of engineers are paid less than that. That skewed perspective becomes a problem when it causes you to start saying demonstrably false things like "a STEM degree with good grades at a recognized college actually does practically guarantee you a six figure salary."
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I agree but generally it's nothing absurd as these amounts the US students take on. Job market is hard on the young and honestly that's just the way it is... you are competing against people with lots of years of experience and no training req. This is a pretty decent documentary on the Canadian job market for young grads a few yrs back... young MMMs take note of the degrees majority of them took. I'm not saying University should be ONLY to get a job, BUT if you are taking on massive loans you better well be damn sure this is some light at the end of the tunnel... if you got endless money tree... take basket weaving 101 if that floats your boat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UUuMWqA8eE
This is becoming huge in Canada as well. Since when did: "I am educated therefore automatically entitled to lots of money," become a thing? It's an arrogant stance of superiority. Since when does a degree guarantee you a six-figure salary? 40 years of teaching self-esteem has really paid off in attitude.
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The degree itself is a blend communications, basic business, management, with a little bit of legal thrown in. Useful as a part time program (i.e. Associates degree) to formalize things you already know and to introduce some new skills that you might not be able to get on the job until you are actually doing the managerial job.
Nothing horrible per se, but something that your employer should be paying for in most cases.
There's no way a hotel is going to pay for some random worker to get education to become management unless they are amazingly talented, and probably not then either. I view a hospitality degree as a very specialized MBA for much less money.
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I feel bad for some of these people. Some are just unintelligent and were sold the scam that a degree from some crappy community college would "better" them. Crap like this just preys on the financially ignorant: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oLX30ijbM2Q
It is absolutely usurious for federally backed loans, non-discharge able in bankruptcy, are at 6-8% when the fed rate is a big fat zero and even during qe1-3. The government should definitely have refinanced every single student loan at near zero rates--- that would have gotten the economy pumping way faster than buying up 30 year treasuries.
Of course some of the posters get what they derserve.
Hotel school.. Could be worth it https://www.hotelschool.cornell.edu/industry/employers/documents/2013%20MMH%20Post%20Grad%20ReportFINAL.pdf
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Sorry it's hard for me to feel bad for these people when I went to a state school and commuted 3 hours a day via public transportation because dorming was too expensive. I had no student loans out of college and was able to pay my total tuition of $20k (graduated about 5 years ago) via government grants, parents helping out, working part time and scholarships. My total tuition is almost what students pay in dorming a year. I guess I will sit back and enjoy being debt free and financial independent and wallow at the fact I never had the "college experience."
People need to treat college like any other business transaction and need to do away with the mentality "Education is an investment and cost is not a big factor."
For example, if you are going into 100k-200k of debt to get a $50k job then you are crippling your future.
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You can probably have all the STEM degrees in the world, but if you suck at job interviews, smell bad, have a piss-poor/entitled attitude, or show up late for work all the time, they ain't gonna get you the job you want. Why don't people ever talk about that aspect? Education ≠ skills ≠ good job. You're only worth what people will pay you. If that's nothing, it means they either don't need ya or they already have one of you.
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+1 Where did this sense of entitlement come from? I guess I know the answer to that...
It's a malignant outgrowth part and parcel of The Cult of the Individual: I built that. There ain't no "we". Rugged Individualism. Credentialism. The whole corporate syphilis we've been succumbing to for 30-40-ish years. It is definitely not an outgrowth of "self-esteem" classes. Just the opposite.
Nothing to add, but the bolded made me choke on my taco.
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+1 Where did this sense of entitlement come from? I guess I know the answer to that...
It's a malignant outgrowth part and parcel of The Cult of the Individual: I built that. There ain't no "we". Rugged Individualism. Credentialism. The whole corporate syphilis we've been succumbing to for 30-40-ish years. It is definitely not an outgrowth of "self-esteem" classes. Just the opposite.
Nothing to add, but the bolded made me choke on my taco.
Heh heh. Glad to make you smile. And by "corporate" I did not mean merely the usual usage of the term: A "Big Business interest" "C" Corp as defined by law.
I meant it in the broader sense encompassing a defining societal way of thinking.
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People can be dismissive, but I can think of few ways more certain to utterly sabotage the health of an economy than to saddle all the people who should be most able to take risks, innovate and try new things with crushing debt.
Student debt has been turned into a profit centre for lenders and colleges. The lenders have the ultimate safe loan - that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. The colleges get to massively over-inflate their tuitions. The students, all of whom are young and stupid, get screwed.
And in the end you have a massive number of reasonably intelligent, creative young people who must GET A JOB AND KEEP IT in order to pay the debt. No room for risk, or entrepreneurship or fresh ideas. They must become beholden to an employer as soon as possible, and stay there for a decade or longer.
Maybe some of them were intentionally stupid. Maybe there is a moral point to be made to destroy a few lives to teach a lesson to the kids that follow. But ultimately it will destroy your economy and society, so it might be worth considering alternatives.
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"Enterprising"? Got sh1t to do with it. It depends on what the hiring dopes want to see. You got papers? good? No papers? Fock-off. Maybe an Eddie Haskell type could weasel his way in but normal people might need to spend something to get something. Employers are good externalizing costs.
[/quote]No, not for these jobs. A "hospitality diploma" will qualify you to start as a hotel desk clerk; that is, handling check in /check outs, etc. People go into these programs thinking they'll be hotel directors or cruise directors ... but those jobs DO require real degrees.
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I feel pretty bad for these people because I went to college 40 years ago, did nothing with my degree (decided that law wasn't my thing) and had Mom and Dad pay tuition/room and board. Which didn't bankrupt them-4 kids 7 years span all getting BAs. Why college costs so much now is a puzzle to me, having loans available partly explains why costs skyrocket.
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The American Association of University Professors has recently put out a large study on why tuition has skyrocketed. (http://www.aaup.org/article/busting-myths-annual-report-economic-status-profession-2014-15#.VTj0sWbmU7A if you're interested.)
It's not the availability of loan money. Much of the reason is the lowered state contributions to state universities. In the one I'm most familiar with, thirty years ago the state provided 40% of the cost of running the university; in 2015 it's 8%. Where is the rest of that going to come from? Higher tuition.
Another cost is technology. How often do you replace your computers? Universities try to drag it out to 5-6 years or so, but as you know, at that age they stop being compatible with the latest software, the software stops being supported by the company, etc. etc. Every single administator on campus has a computer, every secretary, the library is full of them for students, the computer science labs are full of them. Every 5-6 years the university has to buy all new computers. (It's actually on a rolling basis, but you take my point.) Thirty years ago there were probably eight in a lab somewhere. Now there are thousands. It's a huge expense. Not as bad as the drop in state subsidies, but not negligible.
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Thirty years ago there were probably eight in a lab somewhere. Now there are thousands.
I bet the eight from 30 years ago cost the same as the thousands now.
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Thirty years ago there were probably eight in a lab somewhere. Now there are thousands.
I bet the eight from 30 years ago cost the same as the thousands now.
The eight from thirty years ago didn't require the massive network and electric infrastructure that colleges have to maintain for the thousands now. Nor the high licensing costs for the associated software. Academic IT is expensive as heck to run.
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Thirty years ago there were probably eight in a lab somewhere. Now there are thousands.
I bet the eight from 30 years ago cost the same as the thousands now.
The eight from thirty years ago didn't require the massive network and electric infrastructure that colleges have to maintain for the thousands now. Nor the high licensing costs for the associated software. Academic IT is expensive as heck to run.
You may have forgotten what year it is. I guarantee there was massive network infrastructure back then. Not sure what you mean by "electric infrastructure" as they already run power to all the buildings.
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The American Association of University Professors has recently put out a large study on why tuition has skyrocketed. (http://www.aaup.org/article/busting-myths-annual-report-economic-status-profession-2014-15#.VTj0sWbmU7A if you're interested.)
It's not the availability of loan money. Much of the reason is the lowered state contributions to state universities. In the one I'm most familiar with, thirty years ago the state provided 40% of the cost of running the university; in 2015 it's 8%. Where is the rest of that going to come from? Higher tuition.
Another cost is technology. How often do you replace your computers? Universities try to drag it out to 5-6 years or so, but as you know, at that age they stop being compatible with the latest software, the software stops being supported by the company, etc. etc. Every single administrator on campus has a computer, every secretary, the library is full of them for students, the computer science labs are full of them. Every 5-6 years the university has to buy all new computers. (It's actually on a rolling basis, but you take my point.) Thirty years ago there were probably eight in a lab somewhere. Now there are thousands. It's a huge expense. Not as bad as the drop in state subsidies, but not negligible.
My university had crap computers in the labs. The computer science department had a separate lab with a decent computers available for computer science majors only, but everywhere else was crap. The way it worked is they would buy just enough computers for the CS department's lab. Then when it was time to buy new computers again, they would get new PCs for CS department and move their old computers to the labs for everybody else. The further away you were from the CS department, the crappier the computers in the computer area would be. So they didn't replace all the computers every few years. If somebody needed a new computer they had to wait for CS to discard one. So all the libraries and computer labs were full of hand me downs. They didn't really buy that many new computers each year.
My professors claimed the high cost of tuition and the crappy computers were both due to the fact that most of the money goes to pay for sports. They claimed roughly a quarter of our tuition was going to pay for the sports teams. I never looked into the budget to see where it's going. I'm just going by what my teachers said.
I looked into one school that had a very high tuition that also required you to buy your own laptop. They provided wifi in all the buildings. They didn't want to pay for computers, yet they were several times higher than my university. So I could have gone to that school instead and graduated with tons of debt and the same degree. Actually, I'm not even sure they were accredited. They still had plenty of students.
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Sorry it's hard for me to feel bad for these people when I went to a state school and commuted 3 hours a day via public transportation because dorming was too expensive. I had no student loans out of college and was able to pay my total tuition of $20k (graduated about 5 years ago) via government grants, parents helping out, working part time and scholarships. My total tuition is almost what students pay in dorming a year. I guess I will sit back and enjoy being debt free and financial independent and wallow at the fact I never had the "college experience."
Not to take away from people who have graduated debt-free (that's something to be proud of), but I also went to a state school, commuted (often on public transportation), packed my own lunches, and worked (half time to full time) during my 4 years at school, all while taking a full-course engineering load. I lived on my own, paid my own bills, and didn't get help from my parents. Even with my job, thousands from scholarships, and a work-study program at the school (in addition to the job), I still graduated $21k in debt, plus another $4k in accrued interest during my school years. I lived a pretty mustachian lifestyle then, and I still do now--I wasn't frivolous with my spending at all, and still came out in debt.
Luckily for me, I now have an electrical engineering degree and a salaried, well-paying job to go with it, and will have paid off my $25k in less than a year.
Yes, some people pick majors with little hopes of getting a job in the future, or what-have-you. These people with 6-figure school debts don't need pity parties thrown for them, but it wouldn't hurt to have some sympathy for a large group of people who are starting out in life behind the eight ball. Some of these cases are frivolous or short-sighted, but there are some that aren't, too.
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Sorry it's hard for me to feel bad for these people when I went to a state school and commuted 3 hours a day via public transportation because dorming was too expensive. I had no student loans out of college and was able to pay my total tuition of $20k (graduated about 5 years ago) via government grants, parents helping out, working part time and scholarships. My total tuition is almost what students pay in dorming a year. I guess I will sit back and enjoy being debt free and financial independent and wallow at the fact I never had the "college experience."
Not to take away from people who have graduated debt-free (that's something to be proud of), but I also went to a state school, commuted (often on public transportation), packed my own lunches, and worked (half time to full time) during my 4 years at school, all while taking a full-course engineering load. I lived on my own, paid my own bills, and didn't get help from my parents. Even with my job, thousands from scholarships, and a work-study program at the school (in addition to the job), I still graduated $21k in debt, plus another $4k in accrued interest during my school years. I lived a pretty mustachian lifestyle then, and I still do now--I wasn't frivolous with my spending at all, and still came out in debt.
Luckily for me, I now have an electrical engineering degree and a salaried, well-paying job to go with it, and will have paid off my $25k in less than a year.
Yes, some people pick majors with little hopes of getting a job in the future, or what-have-you. These people with 6-figure school debts don't need pity parties thrown for them, but it wouldn't hurt to have some sympathy for a large group of people who are starting out in life behind the eight ball. Some of these cases are frivolous or short-sighted, but there are some that aren't, too.
Dutch, I did all the things you did, state school (couldn't commute though) worked full time etc. I graduated with 97k in loans still so I was by your definition "behind the eight ball" I STILL have no sympathy for these people because, they, like me, knew what they were getting themselves into. They claim they didn't, but they did, it's basic knowledge, I borrow money, I have to pay it back so I better make the right choices to ensure that I can.
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My professors claimed the high cost of tuition and the crappy computers were both due to the fact that most of the money goes to pay for sports. They claimed roughly a quarter of our tuition was going to pay for the sports teams. I never looked into the budget to see where it's going. I'm just going by what my teachers said.
I thought sports programs were revenue centers for colleges. I guess it depends on the school and the specific program, but my impression was that the big popular sports earn profits, and other sports programs are paid for by that.
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My professors claimed the high cost of tuition and the crappy computers were both due to the fact that most of the money goes to pay for sports. They claimed roughly a quarter of our tuition was going to pay for the sports teams. I never looked into the budget to see where it's going. I'm just going by what my teachers said.
I thought sports programs were revenue centers for colleges. I guess it depends on the school and the specific program, but my impression was that the big popular sports earn profits, and other sports programs are paid for by that.
The sports programs drew more students so they were revenue generators. The sports teams weren't earning their money through people paying for game tickets or buying fan merchandise. They drew more students to the school so there was more tuition money coming in. People are paying to attend the school that is known for its awesome sports team, not it's awesome learning environment. Apparently some people pick a college because their sports teams are awesome, or the frat parties are awesome, or the girls/boys are really attractive. And they don't really care about the quality of the education or the computers and things available for learning. This idea is very strange to me.
And yes, it would depend a lot on the school. And the opinions differ based on who you are talking to. But there was this general idea that students are selecting this school because the sports team is so awesome so the sports team should be given the credit for a good deal of the tuition income. I'm sure some school that is famous for its tech program would prioritize differently.
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Sorry it's hard for me to feel bad for these people when I went to a state school and commuted 3 hours a day via public transportation because dorming was too expensive. I had no student loans out of college and was able to pay my total tuition of $20k (graduated about 5 years ago) via government grants, parents helping out, working part time and scholarships. My total tuition is almost what students pay in dorming a year. I guess I will sit back and enjoy being debt free and financial independent and wallow at the fact I never had the "college experience."
Not to take away from people who have graduated debt-free (that's something to be proud of), but I also went to a state school, commuted (often on public transportation), packed my own lunches, and worked (half time to full time) during my 4 years at school, all while taking a full-course engineering load. I lived on my own, paid my own bills, and didn't get help from my parents. Even with my job, thousands from scholarships, and a work-study program at the school (in addition to the job), I still graduated $21k in debt, plus another $4k in accrued interest during my school years. I lived a pretty mustachian lifestyle then, and I still do now--I wasn't frivolous with my spending at all, and still came out in debt.
Luckily for me, I now have an electrical engineering degree and a salaried, well-paying job to go with it, and will have paid off my $25k in less than a year.
Yes, some people pick majors with little hopes of getting a job in the future, or what-have-you. These people with 6-figure school debts don't need pity parties thrown for them, but it wouldn't hurt to have some sympathy for a large group of people who are starting out in life behind the eight ball. Some of these cases are frivolous or short-sighted, but there are some that aren't, too.
Dutch, I did all the things you did, state school (couldn't commute though) worked full time etc. I graduated with 97k in loans still so I was by your definition "behind the eight ball" I STILL have no sympathy for these people because, they, like me, knew what they were getting themselves into. They claim they didn't, but they did, it's basic knowledge, I borrow money, I have to pay it back so I better make the right choices to ensure that I can.
I'd like to think there's a mental space that can encompass both expecting personal responsibility, and understanding for others. I'm taking responsibility to pay back my own loans (that I agreed to pay back), and I don't want others to have a victim mentality (e.g. "the whole system is rigged against us!"). I can still have sympathy, though--it sucks to feel trapped at your job, it sucks to be compared against parents that bought a house and started a family at your age, etc. I wouldn't be unfeeling towards someone who was trying to lose weight (that they themselves gained) or marital problems (with a partner that they chose to marry), even if I thought their earlier decisions were stupid. Some of the responses in this thread are pretty harsh, bordering on schadenfreude... maybe I'm just too much of a sap.
Maybe on a more objective level, people can just see the national student debt as a disservice to their investments. More money to student loan payments is less "expendable" income, which is less economic growth and smaller investment returns. Surely $1T in student loan debt (with more and more people defaulting on their loans) presents some serious challenges to our country's future economic health.
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Sorry it's hard for me to feel bad for these people when I went to a state school and commuted 3 hours a day via public transportation because dorming was too expensive. I had no student loans out of college and was able to pay my total tuition of $20k (graduated about 5 years ago) via government grants, parents helping out, working part time and scholarships. My total tuition is almost what students pay in dorming a year. I guess I will sit back and enjoy being debt free and financial independent and wallow at the fact I never had the "college experience."
Not to take away from people who have graduated debt-free (that's something to be proud of), but I also went to a state school, commuted (often on public transportation), packed my own lunches, and worked (half time to full time) during my 4 years at school, all while taking a full-course engineering load. I lived on my own, paid my own bills, and didn't get help from my parents. Even with my job, thousands from scholarships, and a work-study program at the school (in addition to the job), I still graduated $21k in debt, plus another $4k in accrued interest during my school years. I lived a pretty mustachian lifestyle then, and I still do now--I wasn't frivolous with my spending at all, and still came out in debt.
Luckily for me, I now have an electrical engineering degree and a salaried, well-paying job to go with it, and will have paid off my $25k in less than a year.
Yes, some people pick majors with little hopes of getting a job in the future, or what-have-you. These people with 6-figure school debts don't need pity parties thrown for them, but it wouldn't hurt to have some sympathy for a large group of people who are starting out in life behind the eight ball. Some of these cases are frivolous or short-sighted, but there are some that aren't, too.
Dutch, I did all the things you did, state school (couldn't commute though) worked full time etc. I graduated with 97k in loans still so I was by your definition "behind the eight ball" I STILL have no sympathy for these people because, they, like me, knew what they were getting themselves into. They claim they didn't, but they did, it's basic knowledge, I borrow money, I have to pay it back so I better make the right choices to ensure that I can.
I'd like to think there's a mental space that can encompass both expecting personal responsibility, and understanding for others. I'm taking responsibility to pay back my own loans (that I agreed to pay back), and I don't want others to have a victim mentality (e.g. "the whole system is rigged against us!"). I can still have sympathy, though--it sucks to feel trapped at your job, it sucks to be compared against parents that bought a house and started a family at your age, etc. I wouldn't be unfeeling towards someone who was trying to lose weight (that they themselves gained) or marital problems (with a partner that they chose to marry), even if I thought their earlier decisions were stupid. Some of the responses in this thread are pretty harsh, bordering on schadenfreude... maybe I'm just too much of a sap.
Maybe on a more objective level, people can just see the national student debt as a disservice to their investments. More money to student loan payments is less "expendable" income, which is less economic growth and smaller investment returns. Surely $1T in student loan debt (with more and more people defaulting on their loans) presents some serious challenges to our country's future economic health.
When you read the statements in that petition, there is not ONE person in there that got to that point through anything but their own piss poor planning. Oh, I have 50k in loans let me pop out a couple of kids and stop working. Oh, no one told me 100k for an acting degree was stupid and so on and so forth. I feel for them that they are going to be stuck under this for a while, but I have no level of sympathy in me that thinks the taxpayer should wipe their slate clean due to a personal choice.
I didn't like being stuck in the same job due to loans, but you know what, I built up some side hustles to pay off that near six figure debt in 3 years so that I didn't have to feel stuck. THAT'S what is lacking in this conversation. That petition board is FULL of people that do not want to sacrifice to pay those things off, heck 99% of the people I am friends with that have loans refuse to do what is necessary to pay them off. They don't want to buy a smaller house, they want mommy and daddies house (and not their starter home), they don't want to delay kids a couple of years, and they don't want to drive an old car because the new 40k minivan has all the "safety" features in it. It's rampant entitlement plain and simple.
Is 1T in student loan debt bad...yup, but what's the fix? There really isn't one with the shitty education spending in the US. Make loans bankruptable and then you end up in another financial crisis and NO ONE can go to college on loans because the servicers won't lend. Comparing this to loosing weight and divorce isn't even on the same tier. Weight gain can be caused by situations other then personal choice, like thyroid disease or diabetes, and Divorce can be caused by the other partner simply up and leaving as a shock to the other or through the acute lying of the other partner.
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Make loans bankruptable and then you end up in another financial crisis and NO ONE can go to college on loans because the servicers won't lend.
Actually, if the servicers stop lending, I think you would see a rapid downsizing of the university footprint, in which schools would be forced to go on a diet and drastically cut costs to the point where tuition again is at a level that the middle class can afford out-of-pocket.
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Make loans bankruptable and then you end up in another financial crisis and NO ONE can go to college on loans because the servicers won't lend.
Actually, if the servicers stop lending, I think you would see a rapid downsizing of the university footprint, in which schools would be forced to go on a diet and drastically cut costs to the point where tuition again is at a level that the middle class can afford out-of-pocket.
Good point. The easy availability of school credit is considered to be a substantial contributor to runaway costs. If more money is available across the board, it's no surprise that a fallacy of competition results with tech spending, etc.
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Make loans bankruptable and then you end up in another financial crisis and NO ONE can go to college on loans because the servicers won't lend.
Actually, if the servicers stop lending, I think you would see a rapid downsizing of the university footprint, in which schools would be forced to go on a diet and drastically cut costs to the point where tuition again is at a level that the middle class can afford out-of-pocket.
Good point. The easy availability of school credit is considered to be a substantial contributor to runaway costs. If more money is available across the board, it's no surprise that a fallacy of competition results with tech spending, etc.
Possibly, which could take a decade or more to do leading to a glut of non lendable/educated students. Or the other option is that, just like SweetBriar last month, they decide to bankrupt and close their doors totally, leaving graduated students with a near worthless degree, and thousands of currently enrolled students in the lurch.
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Make loans bankruptable and then you end up in another financial crisis and NO ONE can go to college on loans because the servicers won't lend.
Actually, if the servicers stop lending, I think you would see a rapid downsizing of the university footprint, in which schools would be forced to go on a diet and drastically cut costs to the point where tuition again is at a level that the middle class can afford out-of-pocket.
Depends on the school, but most state schools have increased tuition as a result of rapidly declining state tax dollars not increasing costs. We've shifted the cost of (state) university education from society to the individual students and decreasing loan availability will not change that fact.
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Another cost is technology. How often do you replace your computers? Universities try to drag it out to 5-6 years or so, but as you know, at that age they stop being compatible with the latest software, the software stops being supported by the company, etc. etc. Every single administator on campus has a computer, every secretary, the library is full of them for students, the computer science labs are full of them. Every 5-6 years the university has to buy all new computers. (It's actually on a rolling basis, but you take my point.) Thirty years ago there were probably eight in a lab somewhere. Now there are thousands. It's a huge expense. Not as bad as the drop in state subsidies, but not negligible.
Yes, when I earned my first degree in the late 80s, I graduated never having touched a computer. Today that's unthinkable.
Yes, some people pick majors with little hopes of getting a job in the future, or what-have-you. These people with 6-figure school debts don't need pity parties thrown for them, but it wouldn't hurt to have some sympathy for a large group of people who are starting out in life behind the eight ball. Some of these cases are frivolous or short-sighted, but there are some that aren't, too.
What I see in high school today isn't so much people choosing degrees with little hope of real jobs (i.e., Theater or Women's Studies); rather, it's kids that "overshoot" their own abilities. Okay, part of this is that I'm teaching all remedial classes this semester, but among my students -- again, remedial classes -- this year's "favorite major" is Pharmacy. Yes, a good 10% of my students genuinely think they're going to take their 1.2 high school GPA ... do a short stint in community college ... then transfer to a 4-year university ... go on to grad school ... and work in this competitive field. Among them I have one potential vet and a whole bunch of engineers. Oh, and one future pediatric surgeon. Note that the potential vet took "Foundations of Biology", which is Biology for the kids who can't make it in real Biology (yes, a person who's really going to make it in vet school needs to have aced Honors Biology, then moved on to AP Biology... probably AP Chemistry too); and a bunch of the engineers are taking similarly mediocre math classes.
It's not that their plans are bad. Their plans would be fine for another student -- a student with top grades, ability and motivation.
I try to steer them towards more realistic programs. For example, for my group of girls bent upon Pharmacy, I talked about the two-year programs at the community college that would allow them to work in a health care field after two years: Radiology, Surgery Tech, Respitory Therapy, Dental Hyg. (Okay, the dental jobs have sort of peaked, but the others are very realistic.) And they look at me like I'm crazy: They don't "connect" the idea that their high school performance is in any way connected to the jobs they're going to be able to hold in the future.
So, bringing my point home: All the 18-year olds who borrow big bucks aren't necessarily ignorant of the fact that they're going to have to pay back $$$$$. Rather, they feel SO SURE that once they're working in a pharmacy, in their own vet clinic, in this or that other high-paying job, it'll be easy to pay back. Yes, their logic is flawed ... but not always in the terms you describe.
And what happens LATER is that they realize they can't make it in Engineering ... and that Gender Studies class was really fun -- and if it didn't lead to a job, they wouldn't offer it, would they? -- so they change their majors. Few of my students ENTER college in a frivolous major.
I thought sports programs were revenue centers for colleges. I guess it depends on the school and the specific program, but my impression was that the big popular sports earn profits, and other sports programs are paid for by that.
I'm paying college tuition right now, so I'm "up" on this topic. None of my daughter's tuition goes to sports; however, if you look at the breakdown of her fees, about $100 or so each semester goes to sports, just as other fees go to fund the health center, the library, etc. However, her school admits students into games for free -- not all universities do that. I think they DO make big bucks from the athletic program -- or at least from football, but they ALSO take a bite from the students. I was an A and B student in high school, so I got some scholarships and grants, but full-ride scholarships are mostly for athletes and straight A types.
Incorrect. These days, the only people getting full rides are military kids. The straight-A crowd is getting full tuition plus a couple other smaller scholarships that chip away at their living expenses. Possibly, which could take a decade or more to do leading to a glut of non lendable/educated students. Or the other option is that, just like SweetBriar last month, they decide to bankrupt and close their doors totally, leaving graduated students with a near worthless degree, and thousands of currently enrolled students in the lurch.
Yeah, that happened to a worthless little private college near us some years back. They lost their accreditation, and that led to their closing their doors.
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I never feel sorry for college kids. I've taught in college as an adjunct and mentored students too. The formula is not difficult.
1. Choose public in-state college. Do not go private or out-of-state unless scholarships (meaning stuff you don't have to pay back) level the playing field. You say you have a "dream" college? Here's your dream: be debt-free.
2. Live MMM in college. You're poor. Eat in the dining hall. Drink water. Do not enter a Starbucks ever. If you drink alcohol, consume only the ample free booze available in college. Need entertainment? Go to the "free" gym that's included in your pricey tuition. Join an Intramural sports team. Find the cheapest housing possible. Have roommates. You don't need to watch TV in college - ever.
3. Do not drive unless you live (free) at home and commute to school (not a bad idea).
4. Get a job. It doesn't have to be full-time, but bank that money or put it directly toward non-negotiable college expenses. Going out to eat, partying, and fraternity/sorority dues are not college necessities.
5. Your degree -- regardless of field -- will be largely worthless unless you use the time in college to build a career. Do the unpaid internships now while you can live at home during the summers/breaks. Build a network and experience now. If all you graduate with is a diploma, you've wasted four years.
6. Build your career with campus experiences. If you're, say, a would-be journalist (God help you), you can work for the campus TV, radio, newspaper or magazine outlets. (I'm a media guy and am always stunned when I meet juniors and seniors who aspire to work in this field and have done nothing.)
7. Don't join a fraternity or sorority. Period. If you do, don't complain that you can't find a job and are in debt upon graduating. This is how you chose to spend your time. (And if you still insist, don't put it on your freakin' resume. Do you think an employer wants to hire someone who placed partying as a top priority in college?)
8. Develop the mindset that you're already working in your career while in college. In fact, obsess about it. This is your No.1 priority. Build with internships and freelance work that hopefully will segue naturally into gainful employment upon graduation. Or maybe you'll have built a business to launch yourself.
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Alternate title: Self-entitled first-world adults whine about their poor life choices.
I see a common theme in these stories, which is not that these people made one bad life choice by taking out a huge student loan, or choosing an expensive out-of-state university, or choosing a bad major. No, they made a train-wreck of bad life choices that just keep piling up on top of each other. I see a lot of whining about how they can't feed their kids... come on, its 2015, we have had birth control for how long? The kids were just another bad financial decision. Can't afford house payments? Why the hell do you own a house when you have not paid off your student loans yet! Went back to school a second time before the loans from the first round were paid off? COME ON!!
Sorry, I could forgive one bad financial mistake, but when these people just keep fumbling around with their finances obliviously, I really don't have any sympathy. I can only imagine what these people would do if their student loans were suddenly forgiven: take out a loan for a new car, take out a mortgage, or quit their job and take out a loan to "finally see the world!"? Maybe the government should give them free personal finance classes instead of loan forgiveness.
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I never feel sorry for college kids. I've taught in college as an adjunct and mentored students too. The formula is not difficult.
1. Choose public in-state college. Do not go private or out-of-state unless scholarships (meaning stuff you don't have to pay back) level the playing field. You say you have a "dream" college? Here's your dream: be debt-free.
2. Live MMM in college. You're poor. Eat in the dining hall. Drink water. Do not enter a Starbucks ever. If you drink alcohol, consume only the ample free booze available in college. Need entertainment? Go to the "free" gym that's included in your pricey tuition. Join an Intramural sports team. Find the cheapest housing possible. Have roommates. You don't need to watch TV in college - ever.
3. Do not drive unless you live (free) at home and commute to school (not a bad idea).
4. Get a job. It doesn't have to be full-time, but bank that money or put it directly toward non-negotiable college expenses. Going out to eat, partying, and fraternity/sorority dues are not college necessities.
5. Your degree -- regardless of field -- will be largely worthless unless you use the time in college to build a career. Do the unpaid internships now while you can live at home during the summers/breaks. Build a network and experience now. If all you graduate with is a diploma, you've wasted four years.
6. Build your career with campus experiences. If you're, say, a would-be journalist (God help you), you can work for the campus TV, radio, newspaper or magazine outlets. (I'm a media guy and am always stunned when I meet juniors and seniors who aspire to work in this field and have done nothing.)
7. Don't join a fraternity or sorority. Period. If you do, don't complain that you can't find a job and are in debt upon graduating. This is how you chose to spend your time. (And if you still insist, don't put it on your freakin' resume. Do you think an employer wants to hire someone who placed partying as a top priority in college?)
8. Develop the mindset that you're already working in your career while in college. In fact, obsess about it. This is your No.1 priority. Build with internships and freelance work that hopefully will segue naturally into gainful employment upon graduation. Or maybe you'll have built a business to launch yourself.
I know this is an old thread, but you nailed it!
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I dunno guys, the US spends over $550,000,000,000 on its military each year and yet getting a college degree is enormously expensive. How fucked up is that ? Geopolitical shite wins over your people's well being....way to go.
It seems that the US education model is creating a lot of ....well lets be honest.....indentured slaves. Before you all carp on about how these people are fools and "I got out of six figure debt on Ramen noodles" remember most people are totally shit with money/finances and always will be. Maybe basic finance ISN'T taught for a reason.
Rant over.
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It seems that the US education model is creating a lot of ....well lets be honest.....indentured slaves. Before you all carp on about how these people are fools and "I got out of six figure debt on Ramen noodles" remember most people are totally shit with money/finances and always will be. Maybe basic finance ISN'T taught for a reason.
I feel like it's been planned out this way. The best worker is one that can't quit their job because they have lots of debt. Add to that the idea that you're supposed to buy a house and a new car once you graduate. I remember reading that some hiring manager said they prefer candidates with debt because they are the least likely to quit. You should have enough debt that it looks like you need a job, but not so much that you look really stupid.
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I saw a story on yahoo today about this and one of the girls was whining about her 94k student loans (now down to 75k) from NYU for her ACTING degree and how she can't act and pay back the loan and had to get a real job yada yada yada.
I'm just shocked someone gave this moron a job paying enough where she could pay back 20k.
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I never feel sorry for college kids. I've taught in college as an adjunct and mentored students too. The formula is not difficult.
1. Choose public in-state college. Do not go private or out-of-state unless scholarships (meaning stuff you don't have to pay back) level the playing field. You say you have a "dream" college? Here's your dream: be debt-free.
Or unless you actually want to get a degree in four years. My cousin enrolled at a state school (UC Santa Barbara). With funding cuts, the classes are so overcrowded that it's almost impossible to get into required courses. Because of this it would have taken her over six years to get her "four year" degree. So she transferred to a private school where she could actually take her classes.
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^If this ever happens to you or your children, try this tactic:
Figure out what courses you need and attempt to enroll. If you get waitlisted or just can't even get on the waitlist, then check that section daily and keep trying to get a seat. Seats will open periodically in most classes. If it's a lab, take a seat in any section you can get that doesn't conflict with other required classes (my condolences that you are stuck in a Friday afternoon lab, but after all you are in college for classes, not heading to the beach early on Friday.)
If the enrollment stalking doesn't snag you a seat by the time the term starts, then GO to the class on the FIRST DAY it meets anyway. Right after class go up to the front of the room in person, wait patiently for your turn, then explain to the professor that you tried to register but you had last window and couldn't get a seat but it's a required class for you. Say you'd really like to be in their class and ask politely if there is any way they can help you get a seat. For truly required classes, many faculty will just have their departmental admin add you to the roster. You might have to try this is multiple sections, so don't be shy about getting up and asking the instructor of the 8 am class if you can have a seat. IN PERSON and FIRST DAY are key. DON'T pester the professor via email or in person before classes start, don't wait until the second or third day of class. It won't always work, but you'd be surprised how often it does work on that first day.
Every single colleague of mine lets EVERYONE who actually shows up the FIRST day into the class. Every term I let in a few people who do this and I watched one colleague let about 20 people in. He said right at the beginning of class "raise your hand if you don't officially have a seat in this class." A whole bunch of hands went up and he said "well you all seem to fit in this room, so please come down after and write your name on a list today. You're all in."
Yes, this was all at a big state school. I agree that it shouldn't be this way, but I'm also surprised at how many students just see that the class they need is full right at the moment they try to register and never try again to get a seat that term. I've had advisees email me in a panic about it. I look online and sometimes, in fact often, there is a seat open right at that moment I'm looking a day or a week after registration ended. So I just reply "Please try again, I see an open seat in that class now and if you are quick maybe you can snag it. If not, please keep looking daily on your own as people will drop over time." If it takes you 6 years to get a 4 year degree, then you really aren't trying hard enough to get it done.
/rant
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A lot of very privileged people have commented so far on this thread. I ended up with a lot of student loan debt from college and grad school ($74,000 at one point) and the reason I ended up with it was because I didn't understand money or what college degrees led to real income. I didn't know either of those things because I grew up in poverty and my parents were more interested in having me "age out" of being their responsibility than to teach me life skills. (They also didn't have very many life skills of their own to share with me.) It's easy to call people stupid when you don't understand the challenges they face. I got lucky that I was able to get a job working at a credit union where I could learn about bank accounts, loans, etc. and figure out how to monetize my degree. (I nearly didn't get the job too, because my credit was terrible at the time.)
You can't reasonably expect someone to go out of their way to learn life skills that they don't know exist and don't know they should be pursuing, especially when the entire country drills into their heads that they are losers unless they get a college degree of some kind in a field that is personally interesting to them (and the money will follow. Bullshit.) Unfortunately, America wants most young people to learn through the "School of Hard Knocks" and they end up in difficult situations like those on that web page.
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A lot of very privileged people have commented so far on this thread. I ended up with a lot of student loan debt from college and grad school ($74,000 at one point) and the reason I ended up with it was because I didn't understand money or what college degrees led to real income. I didn't know either of those things because I grew up in poverty and my parents were more interested in having me "age out" of being their responsibility than to teach me life skills. (They also didn't have very many life skills of their own to share with me.) It's easy to call people stupid when you don't understand the challenges they face. I got lucky that I was able to get a job working at a credit union where I could learn about bank accounts, loans, etc. and figure out how to monetize my degree. (I nearly didn't get the job too, because my credit was terrible at the time.)
You can't reasonably expect someone to go out of their way to learn life skills that they don't know exist and don't know they should be pursuing, especially when the entire country drills into their heads that they are losers unless they get a college degree of some kind in a field that is personally interesting to them (and the money will follow. Bullshit.) Unfortunately, America wants most young people to learn through the "School of Hard Knocks" and they end up in difficult situations like those on that web page.
Amen
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A lot of very privileged people have commented so far on this thread. I ended up with a lot of student loan debt from college and grad school ($74,000 at one point) and the reason I ended up with it was because I didn't understand money or what college degrees led to real income. I didn't know either of those things because I grew up in poverty and my parents were more interested in having me "age out" of being their responsibility than to teach me life skills. (They also didn't have very many life skills of their own to share with me.) It's easy to call people stupid when you don't understand the challenges they face. I got lucky that I was able to get a job working at a credit union where I could learn about bank accounts, loans, etc. and figure out how to monetize my degree. (I nearly didn't get the job too, because my credit was terrible at the time.)
You can't reasonably expect someone to go out of their way to learn life skills that they don't know exist and don't know they should be pursuing, especially when the entire country drills into their heads that they are losers unless they get a college degree of some kind in a field that is personally interesting to them (and the money will follow. Bullshit.) Unfortunately, America wants most young people to learn through the "School of Hard Knocks" and they end up in difficult situations like those on that web page.
Well Done
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+3
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A lot of very privileged people have commented so far on this thread. I ended up with a lot of student loan debt from college and grad school ($74,000 at one point) and the reason I ended up with it was because I didn't understand money or what college degrees led to real income.
What about all the "young" people who are still signing up every day for massive school debt for degrees that are worthless when by now it is pretty much common knowledge with all the media coverage of how many college programs are a just a scam? How much longer will people use the excuse of ignorance that they didn't know any better? Also if you read the page MANY people who whine about not wanting to pay back loans they agreed to the terms of are well into their 30's-40's or even older.
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If they really understood that it was a scam, why would they sign up? The very fact that they're signing up shows that they think the programs will lead to a useful degree. Remember that the programs are doing everything they can be to persuasive. Add in many cultural messages about how everyone should get a college degree, plus the lack of direction for those who don't want one — it's not very clear in our culture how you could make a good living without one. (I know you can. I mean that it's much less well publicized that the benefits of a degree.) Among my students I see that everyone hopes a credential like a degree will be the key to a well-paying job. And it's not as if 18-year-olds or 20-year-olds have vast and deep experience of the world.
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There are MANY "young" people who go to college just to delay having to be an adult and live in an adult world with adult responsibilities. Even before college cost got to where they are now I know of so many people who went to college for this reason and when they finished school went on to do nothing even remotely associated with went they went to school for and got a job that did not require a degree. Also you didn't address the fact that many of there people who dont want to pay back what they borrowed were already well into adulthood and should have know better.
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Also you didn't address the fact that many of there people who dont want to pay back what they borrowed were already well into adulthood and should have know better.
That's because nobody's talking about those people. Not the topic of conversation
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Also you didn't address the fact that many of there people who dont want to pay back what they borrowed were already well into adulthood and should have know better.
That's because nobody's talking about those people. Not the topic of conversation
Yes they are and yes it is. I am the OP of the topic and no where in the original post does it say it is just about young adults. As a matter of fact if you read the posts before you commented you would have seen that there is many here talking about people of all ages trying to skip on paying a loan back that they agreed to terms when they wanted the $$$$$.
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^If this ever happens to you or your children, try this tactic:
Figure out what courses you need and attempt to enroll. If you get waitlisted or just can't even get on the waitlist, then check that section daily and keep trying to get a seat. Seats will open periodically in most classes. If it's a lab, take a seat in any section you can get that doesn't conflict with other required classes (my condolences that you are stuck in a Friday afternoon lab, but after all you are in college for classes, not heading to the beach early on Friday.)
If the enrollment stalking doesn't snag you a seat by the time the term starts, then GO to the class on the FIRST DAY it meets anyway. Right after class go up to the front of the room in person, wait patiently for your turn, then explain to the professor that you tried to register but you had last window and couldn't get a seat but it's a required class for you. Say you'd really like to be in their class and ask politely if there is any way they can help you get a seat. For truly required classes, many faculty will just have their departmental admin add you to the roster. You might have to try this is multiple sections, so don't be shy about getting up and asking the instructor of the 8 am class if you can have a seat. IN PERSON and FIRST DAY are key. DON'T pester the professor via email or in person before classes start, don't wait until the second or third day of class. It won't always work, but you'd be surprised how often it does work on that first day.
Every single colleague of mine lets EVERYONE who actually shows up the FIRST day into the class. Every term I let in a few people who do this and I watched one colleague let about 20 people in. He said right at the beginning of class "raise your hand if you don't officially have a seat in this class." A whole bunch of hands went up and he said "well you all seem to fit in this room, so please come down after and write your name on a list today. You're all in."
Yes, this was all at a big state school. I agree that it shouldn't be this way, but I'm also surprised at how many students just see that the class they need is full right at the moment they try to register and never try again to get a seat that term. I've had advisees email me in a panic about it. I look online and sometimes, in fact often, there is a seat open right at that moment I'm looking a day or a week after registration ended. So I just reply "Please try again, I see an open seat in that class now and if you are quick maybe you can snag it. If not, please keep looking daily on your own as people will drop over time." If it takes you 6 years to get a 4 year degree, then you really aren't trying hard enough to get it done.
/rant
Yep, my daughter is a student at a mid-sized state school, and BECAUSE she's done these very things, she's ALWAYS been able to get into her necessary classes. She is on track to graduate next year, which will be the four year mark. I'd add a couple more thoughts:
- Know when your personal registration date /time opens ... and be prepared to register right that minute. That means thinking ahead about what courses you need, having your backups ready. Twice my daughter's been unable to register the minute her time opened up (once because she was still in high school and was taking an AP test, once because she was in lab), so she planned ahead, gave me DETAILED INSTRUCTIONS about what classes she wanted, and had me do it for her online. No problems. She gave me her log in and password, and no one even knew she wasn't the one who actually typed in the class codes.
- As you're stalking that seat, pay attention to the day tuition is due, and check constantly the day after. It's terribly sad that someone will have his registration "dropped" because he either couldn't pay or forgot to pay ... but SOMEONE'S going to grab his seat in that class you need, and it might as well be you. Really, seats come open like crazy the day after tuition's due.
- Similarly, stalk hard on long weekends. Students aren't likely to make the decision NOT to return to school while they're sitting in their dorm room on a Tuesday night. They're likely to go home and talk to their parents about how they're not happy, or they want to change schools, or whatever. Likewise, parents aren't likely to call up and say on a random Tuesday night, "Hey, I have no money." They're going to talk about that when the kids come home for a break -- and when the student drops, it'll be over that weekend OR the next Monday or Tuesday.
A lot of very privileged people have commented so far on this thread. I ended up with a lot of student loan debt from college and grad school ($74,000 at one point) and the reason I ended up with it was because I didn't understand money or what college degrees led to real income. I didn't know either of those things because I grew up in poverty and my parents were more interested in having me "age out" of being their responsibility than to teach me life skills. (They also didn't have very many life skills of their own to share with me.) It's easy to call people stupid when you don't understand the challenges they face. I got lucky that I was able to get a job working at a credit union where I could learn about bank accounts, loans, etc. and figure out how to monetize my degree. (I nearly didn't get the job too, because my credit was terrible at the time.)
You can't reasonably expect someone to go out of their way to learn life skills that they don't know exist and don't know they should be pursuing, especially when the entire country drills into their heads that they are losers unless they get a college degree of some kind in a field that is personally interesting to them (and the money will follow. Bullshit.) Unfortunately, America wants most young people to learn through the "School of Hard Knocks" and they end up in difficult situations like those on that web page.
I grew up in that same household with the same lack of help -- both in terms of guidance and in terms of financial help -- and it's WHY I pushed myself to learn how to manage money better. It's WHY I spent so much time in the library reading everything I could about investing, frugal living, retirement, and anything else related to money. It's also why I spent all my time working and refused to borrow, even when it probably would've been better (and more healthy) for me; I was never sure that tomorrow would be better than today.
So, yeah, it's tough to be born into that family, but it's also not synonymous with remaining a victim all your life.
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I grew up in that same household with the same lack of help -- both in terms of guidance and in terms of financial help -- and it's WHY I pushed myself to learn how to manage money better. It's WHY I spent so much time in the library reading everything I could about investing, frugal living, retirement, and anything else related to money. It's also why I spent all my time working and refused to borrow, even when it probably would've been better (and more healthy) for me; I was never sure that tomorrow would be better than today.
I was born there too. And yep. their bad example motivated me. My siblings had different outcomes. And I am not delusional enough to think I turned out better for it. Everything would have been better if I had not been raised by ignorance, anger, and alcoholism. Either these things matter or they don't. And nobody who wants to be taken seriously as a knowledgeable adult would say they don't matter. Yep. Sure. Me, you, and many others were able to surmount the shit pile but what does that mean? We can't all be tied for first place in the smarts department. Everybody who is not as good as I am is an asshole , so ufck 'em, is not good or realistic policy
So, yeah, it's tough to be born into that family, but it's also not synonymous with remaining a victim all your life.
So, what's that supposed to mean? Of course it is true but unless it is guaranteed to apply to everybody all the time in all situations it is just another acknowledgement of the roll of the dice. Everybody everywhere is totally the same. Parents, upbringing, environment, even genes don't and cannot matter. We all know that's crap. Why have parents? They don't matter. Schools? That's why the rick all go to public school. Because everything is the same. Everybody who is not privileged has everything the same as the privileged. AH! Don't let The Privlidged hear you puke that up.
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I never feel sorry for college kids. I've taught in college as an adjunct and mentored students too. The formula is not difficult.
1. Choose public in-state college. Do not go private or out-of-state unless scholarships (meaning stuff you don't have to pay back) level the playing field. You say you have a "dream" college? Here's your dream: be debt-free.
2. Live MMM in college. You're poor. Eat in the dining hall. Drink water. Do not enter a Starbucks ever. If you drink alcohol, consume only the ample free booze available in college. Need entertainment? Go to the "free" gym that's included in your pricey tuition. Join an Intramural sports team. Find the cheapest housing possible. Have roommates. You don't need to watch TV in college - ever.
3. Do not drive unless you live (free) at home and commute to school (not a bad idea).
4. Get a job. It doesn't have to be full-time, but bank that money or put it directly toward non-negotiable college expenses. Going out to eat, partying, and fraternity/sorority dues are not college necessities.
5. Your degree -- regardless of field -- will be largely worthless unless you use the time in college to build a career. Do the unpaid internships now while you can live at home during the summers/breaks. Build a network and experience now. If all you graduate with is a diploma, you've wasted four years.
6. Build your career with campus experiences. If you're, say, a would-be journalist (God help you), you can work for the campus TV, radio, newspaper or magazine outlets. (I'm a media guy and am always stunned when I meet juniors and seniors who aspire to work in this field and have done nothing.)
7. Don't join a fraternity or sorority. Period. If you do, don't complain that you can't find a job and are in debt upon graduating. This is how you chose to spend your time. (And if you still insist, don't put it on your freakin' resume. Do you think an employer wants to hire someone who placed partying as a top priority in college?)
8. Develop the mindset that you're already working in your career while in college. In fact, obsess about it. This is your No.1 priority. Build with internships and freelance work that hopefully will segue naturally into gainful employment upon graduation. Or maybe you'll have built a business to launch yourself.
Excellent advice!!!
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"Who was the fool, who the wise man, beggar or king? Whether poor or rich, all’s the same in death."
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And I am not delusional enough to think I turned out better for it. Everything would have been better if I had not been raised by ignorance, anger, and alcoholism. Oh, absolutely. It was hard to grow up in that situation, and although I learned some lessons and have come out of it pretty well, I am not a better person for having gone through it -- I still carry some bitterness. And not all of my siblings have done as well as I have.
My own daughters are much better off because they've been raised in a middle class home and have had plenty of guidance and love through their young years.
So, what's that supposed to mean?
It means that where you're going is more important than where you come from. It means that you may've had problems in your childhood, but you can't sit back and say, "Well, I just couldn't do any better." It means that after a certain point, you become responsible for your own actions and choices.
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+1 to what Zamboni said above. I did it for a non-required class with a wait list of 20 students (room held 338, and 338 were enrolled). The prof couldn't do anything for me because the enrollment was at the limit of the # of seats in the room. But I STALKED that class for the first week. At the large state school you have 7 days to drop/add classes. Which is usually 2 class meetings. Every 2-3 hours I would check. I got a seat after the second class, and after Labor Day weekend there were 3-4 open seats for anyone looking on Sunday night. Now this isn't a required class for anyone, but sits on a "list of options for your 2 additional required classes". But I'm not even in that program, it was just a fun class for me because I wanted to take it.
I do often wonder just how hard some people work to get into "full" classes. Sometimes an adviser can get you in if the room has enough seats; my adviser would usually add 2-3 extra people and somewhere around 5 or 6 would have qualms with adding more. Sometimes the prof will put you in the class if you go the first day. Sometimes the room/lab is at it's physical fullness, and things suck. Sometimes you have to trade lab times with another student in the lecture hall because the only open lab conflicts with one of your classes. I've had profs basically create an exchange the second day of class where people stated which lab they couldn't be in, and asked to trade. I'd say 70% of the time they got into a lab of some sort. Note that these are labs for the Horticulture degree, so there's usually 2-3 to choose from, not the dozens and dozens at horrible times like Chem and Bio labs.
And the class I worked so hard to get into? Introduction to Personal Finance. :)
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"Who was the fool, who the wise man, beggar or king? Whether poor or rich, all’s the same in death."
We all meet it in the end, but my experience is that death tends to come a bit earlier for the beggar than the king.
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Since when did: "I am educated therefore automatically entitled to lots of money," become a thing? It's an arrogant stance of superiority. Since when does a degree guarantee you a six-figure salary?
I concur.
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Since when did: "I am educated therefore automatically entitled to lots of money," become a thing? It's an arrogant stance of superiority. Since when does a degree guarantee you a six-figure salary?
I concur.
To that point, I know a lot of people making 6 figures who have been just lucky. I did it right, with a BS in Computer Science, they got lucky. I am a little jealous that they didn't really work all that hard, and I busted my ass.
But such is life.
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To that point, I know a lot of people making 6 figures who have been just lucky. I did it right, with a BS in Computer Science, they got lucky. I am a little jealous that they didn't really work all that hard, and I busted my ass.
But such is life.
Working hard as a software dev you can make 6 figures (with some long hours and weekends during release cycles) but then you watch the guys selling the software you wrote make 7 figures.
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To that point, I know a lot of people making 6 figures who have been just lucky. I did it right, with a BS in Computer Science, they got lucky. I am a little jealous that they didn't really work all that hard, and I busted my ass.
But such is life.
Working hard as a software dev you can make 6 figures (with some long hours and weekends during release cycles) but then you watch the guys selling the software you wrote make 7 figures.
Hah. True.
I will elaborate. A friend of mine took easy classes (sociology major), and walked on to an understaffed police department. He put in 2 years there, moved back home, and lucked out doing software installations/rollout. Was making 100k+, decided to quit. Took a year off with no work. Got called back to consult for $140/hr. I applied to the same company and they didn't want to talk to me because I had a 3.4GPA in computer science instead of a 4.0 in sociology.
Another friend got a nursing degree and fell into a $150k/yr job.
There's always someone out there who does better than you, but I thought I was making the right choices. Maybe I need more luck ?
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To that point, I know a lot of people making 6 figures who have been just lucky. I did it right, with a BS in Computer Science, they got lucky. I am a little jealous that they didn't really work all that hard, and I busted my ass.
But such is life.
Working hard as a software dev you can make 6 figures (with some long hours and weekends during release cycles) but then you watch the guys selling the software you wrote make 7 figures.
Hah. True.
I will elaborate. A friend of mine took easy classes (sociology major), and walked on to an understaffed police department. He put in 2 years there, moved back home, and lucked out doing software installations/rollout. Was making 100k+, decided to quit. Took a year off with no work. Got called back to consult for $140/hr. I applied to the same company and they didn't want to talk to me because I had a 3.4GPA in computer science instead of a 4.0 in sociology.
Another friend got a nursing degree and fell into a $150k/yr job.
There's always someone out there who does better than you, but I thought I was making the right choices. Maybe I need more luck ?
The two biggest determining factors for "life success" are your family and your connections (which is related to your family). I have gotten every job I ever had by having connections. My grades in college were really high. I was very involved in community service and clubs. The only thing that mattered was who I knew. That's how it is for everyone and anybody who says otherwise is either lying or clueless.
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I never feel sorry for college kids. I've taught in college as an adjunct and mentored students too. The formula is not difficult.
1. Choose public in-state college. Do not go private or out-of-state unless scholarships (meaning stuff you don't have to pay back) level the playing field. You say you have a "dream" college? Here's your dream: be debt-free.
Or unless you actually want to get a degree in four years. My cousin enrolled at a state school (UC Santa Barbara). With funding cuts, the classes are so overcrowded that it's almost impossible to get into required courses. Because of this it would have taken her over six years to get her "four year" degree. So she transferred to a private school where she could actually take her classes.
This is actually a bigger deal than most people realize. I am fortunate enough to be in the honor's program in my school, so I get first pick on classes, but it's not unheard of for seniors not to be able to graduate on time because they got locked out of courses they need. I had a friend who needed to take one last marketing class to get his degree and the professor took a sabbatical. She was the only one teaching the class, and he had to take it the next semester. (He fought this for weeks until they let him walk with his graduating class and take the class late in the fall).
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A lot of very privileged people have commented so far on this thread. I ended up with a lot of student loan debt from college and grad school ($74,000 at one point) and the reason I ended up with it was because I didn't understand money or what college degrees led to real income.
What about all the "young" people who are still signing up every day for massive school debt for degrees that are worthless when by now it is pretty much common knowledge with all the media coverage of how many college programs are a just a scam? How much longer will people use the excuse of ignorance that they didn't know any better? Also if you read the page MANY people who whine about not wanting to pay back loans they agreed to the terms of are well into their 30's-40's or even older.
The problem is, what's the alternative. Asking a 17-18 year old to figure out what the heck to do with their lives is insane, and high schools do not do a good job of getting students to think about what they want to do. College then acts as a buffer that allows them to explore options for another few years. I know I didn't know what I wanted to do when I graduated high school. I took a year of science classes as a pre-med student because "fuck it", and then took one business course in the summer and fell in love. I had my first internshi before the summer was over, and my second one in the winter. My grades, which had been B's until that summer, launched to A's and A-minus' because I was doing something I understood and resonated with me. I never would have considered business if it wasn't for that one class in the summer.
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Here are a few new ones just recently posted. These people are fucking idiots and I do not feel sorry for them at all!
1) I just turned 47, and feel like I have made a huge mistake with my education. I have a Master's degree in Library and Information Science, and although many people said that this degree was not very useful, my love of research and academic spurred me on. When I rec'd my first Bachelor's degree, I was able to study abroad on a student loan, which was a life changing positive experience for me. I don't regret it at all, even though it left me with $21,000 in debt. When I returned to the states, I graduated and my Bachelor's degree was enough to land me an administrative job. Paid okay, but I wasn't happy. The bills kept coming and I continued working admin jobs, to pay what I could to student loan. Then I decided I'd had enough of admin work, and went back to a Master's program. I had a career counselor at the time, and in the end, I wish I hadn't used her services... she encouraged me to continue with the MLIS program, but my heart became increasingly not into the major. I was now in debt for about $50k and only halfway through the program. I decided to just plug on, and finish, and now I'm $90k in debt, for a fairly defunct line of study and work. I think I was in a panic for a long time, wanting out of admin work. And now, with huge student loan payments coming due, guess where I am? Back in admin work, and this time for much much longer. Feels like a prison sentence of sorts. I'm trying to keep positive, and I will pay what I can, but I fear for all of us lower middle income educated people who have nowhere to turn. In some ways, I wish I had learned a technical trade, and just satisfied my academic thirst on my own, without a college sticker price. When will the government realize that in order to compete on a world economic with an educated citizenry, quality education mandates student loan reform. Otherwise, the result will be increased civil unrest and governmental liability.
Melissa May 4, 2015 Bay Area, CA
2) I have recently graduated with my Master of Social Work degree with $100,000 in student loan debt. Between my partner and I, we have nearly $200,000 in student loan debt with a daughter under the age of one. I work part time because the price of child care is completely unacceptable (that's a whole other story). My partner is a corrections officer with the State, so he makes decent money, but not enough to be able to cover a whopping $1000 a month payment to Sallie Mae (that's just his payment, not mine). I make $13.00, but only work 27 hours a week so I do not qualify for the 10 year loan repayment schedule. My IBR is $0, which sounds great, but the reality is I will end up owing nearly $500,000 in 20 years that will have to be claimed on my income taxes. Sallie Mae is determined to get their money, but I know the IRS is much scarier. It has become crippling. We cannot buy a house, we have put off the thought of having another child simply because we cannot afford one. We have even considered moving in with my parents to be able to catch up on something. My partner works at least three overtime shifts in a pay period to be able to help pay his student loan. I find it absolutely disgusting that we have loans at 6.8%, yet banks and auto companies are getting bailed out with taxpayers dollars with a .75% interest rate. This has completely ruined my future, my partners future, and it has potentially ruined my daughters future.
Kate May 4, 2015 Michigan
3) I recently graduated from Boston University. I'm from a middle class family, and apparently my parents "made too much money on paper" for me to receive financial aid. They never intended to assist in paying my tuition, but I was still required to put their incomes on my FAFSA form. I received VERY little aid to attend BU, a school that costs over $50,000 per year to attend. With about $200,000 in student loan debt, and a degree in the arts, there is no end in sight to paying down my loans. Now I am stuck at home, totally dependent on my parents, working full time at a very poorly paying job, and giving every single paycheck directly to Sallie Mae. I know there are many others like me out there, and something needs to be done in this country about this insane system of robbing students blind.
Kyle April 30, 2015 Philadelphia, PA
4) I teach GED and other subjects at a small rural Native American College. I needed to be there to teach my people so I went on to get my education. I am a single mom and I don't get paid much as a teacher. I am needed here and I do not want to quit or move. I also take care of my disabled sister. I am coming due on loans that want $5-$600 a month to pay back but I will never have that kind on money. The whole reason I needed my education was to teach here and make a difference. I have no idea what I will do because I cannot make enough to make those kinds of payment. I drive a car that is from the 90's and I do not wear fancy clothes so I don't have any where to make budget cuts. Student debt put people like me in a bad position. We are trying to help others but we end up hurting ourselves!
Bambi April 28, 2015 Pawnee, OK
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Well, I do feel very sorry for them. None of them were out to rip anybody off. It's like saying, "You got done in by a bad deal, yah boo sucks!" They are in terrible positions. There but for the grace of God...
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These people are looking for their debts to be forgiven after they agreed to the terms of the loans and had no problem taking the $$$$$ when it was offered. Do you really believe their loans should be forgiven because they are just stupid?
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I never feel sorry for college kids. I've taught in college as an adjunct and mentored students too. The formula is not difficult.
1. Choose public in-state college. Do not go private or out-of-state unless scholarships (meaning stuff you don't have to pay back) level the playing field. You say you have a "dream" college? Here's your dream: be debt-free.Out of state is ok if reciprocity, private often comes with many grants. Weigh the entire package. I went in-state public, but for some, you may find an out of state private offers enough grants that it is the same price as in-state public. It's worth looking into. Certainly don't do it if the cost is 3x.
2. Live MMM in college. You're poor. Eat in the dining hall. Drink water. Do not enter a Starbucks ever. If you drink alcohol, consume only the ample free booze available in college. Need entertainment? Go to the "free" gym that's included in your pricey tuition. Join an Intramural sports team. Find the cheapest housing possible. Have roommates. You don't need to watch TV in college - ever.Agree. Student loans should not be treated like a line of credit for throwing parties.
3. Do not drive unless you live (free) at home and commute to school (not a bad idea).
4. Get a job. It doesn't have to be full-time, but bank that money or put it directly toward non-negotiable college expenses. Going out to eat, partying, and fraternity/sorority dues are not college necessities.
5. Your degree -- regardless of field -- will be largely worthless unless you use the time in college to build a career. Do the unpaid internships now while you can live at home during the summers/breaks. Build a network and experience now. If all you graduate with is a diploma, you've wasted four years.Network as much as possible. Those people may help you find a job someday.
6. Build your career with campus experiences. If you're, say, a would-be journalist (God help you), you can work for the campus TV, radio, newspaper or magazine outlets. (I'm a media guy and am always stunned when I meet juniors and seniors who aspire to work in this field and have done nothing.)
7. Don't join a fraternity or sorority. Period. If you do, don't complain that you can't find a job and are in debt upon graduating. This is how you chose to spend your time. (And if you still insist, don't put it on your freakin' resume. Do you think an employer wants to hire someone who placed partying as a top priority in college?)Some colleges have low/no cost academic social groups. Check these out and use it to build your friend base for future networking contacts.
8. Develop the mindset that you're already working in your career while in college. In fact, obsess about it. This is your No.1 priority. Build with internships and freelance work that hopefully will segue naturally into gainful employment upon graduation. Or maybe you'll have built a business to launch yourself.
I would also add that it may be wise to check into the transfer policy of your university, and take a lot of general education (sociology, psychology, civics, econ, lab science) at a local tech school. I did this and the cost was $80/credit as opposed to the in state 4 year university that was $300/credit or more. Same class at private 4 year in same city? $800+ per credit.
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Otherwise, the result will be increased civil unrest and governmental liability.
Look out, everyone, the unemployed librarians are coming with torches and pitchforks. And tasteful sweater vests.
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4) I teach GED and other subjects at a small rural Native American College. I needed to be there to teach my people so I went on to get my education. I am a single mom and I don't get paid much as a teacher. I am needed here and I do not want to quit or move. I also take care of my disabled sister. I am coming due on loans that want $5-$600 a month to pay back but I will never have that kind on money. The whole reason I needed my education was to teach here and make a difference. I have no idea what I will do because I cannot make enough to make those kinds of payment. I drive a car that is from the 90's and I do not wear fancy clothes so I don't have any where to make budget cuts. Student debt put people like me in a bad position. We are trying to help others but we end up hurting ourselves!
Bambi April 28, 2015 Pawnee, OK
This one should qualify for teacher loan forgiveness if she took out her loans after 1998. All Native American reservation schools count as "low income" schools, so if she makes ten years of minimum payments on the loans she will get the rest forgiven by the government. I hope this teacher does some research on this.
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... I drive a car that is from the 90's and I do not wear fancy clothes so I don't have any where to make budget cuts...
Bambi April 28, 2015 Pawnee, OK
OH! The HORROR! Not a car from the 90s!...
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A lot of very privileged people have commented so far on this thread. I ended up with a lot of student loan debt from college and grad school ($74,000 at one point) and the reason I ended up with it was because I didn't understand money or what college degrees led to real income. I didn't know either of those things because I grew up in poverty and my parents were more interested in having me "age out" of being their responsibility than to teach me life skills. (They also didn't have very many life skills of their own to share with me.) It's easy to call people stupid when you don't understand the challenges they face. I got lucky that I was able to get a job working at a credit union where I could learn about bank accounts, loans, etc. and figure out how to monetize my degree. (I nearly didn't get the job too, because my credit was terrible at the time.)
You can't reasonably expect someone to go out of their way to learn life skills that they don't know exist and don't know they should be pursuing, especially when the entire country drills into their heads that they are losers unless they get a college degree of some kind in a field that is personally interesting to them (and the money will follow. Bullshit.) Unfortunately, America wants most young people to learn through the "School of Hard Knocks" and they end up in difficult situations like those on that web page.
As an 18 year-old punk rocker, I could in no shape of form be called anywhere near the ballpark of "smart". But even with simple Grade 12 math (I scraped by that with an roaring 52% mark), my reaction to normal tuition? "$50 THOUSAND DOLLARS?!! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MINDS?!! THERE'S NO WAY IN HELL I'M BORROWING THAT MUCH FOR ANY JOB IN THIS WORLD. I'll live on the streets. I'll wash dishes. I'll shine shoes or fix guitars before they get their pound of flesh outta me. Come to think of it, that's more than a pound for Goddsakes. You can take your fancy school and shove it where the sun don't shine." After some begging and pleas from my mom, I agreed on a 2-year computer course at local community college for way less dough. ...And now I have just as good a job (or better) than those who did the 5-year philosophy doctorates. You're calling 18 year-olds clueless. They're not. But sadly, lots of them see a giant avalanche of loan money coming their way and they embrace it with smiling eyes full of greedy happiness. Damn the future consequences. Then the day comes when they have to pay it back and they whine like beaten dogs. This has been happening since lending was invented.
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FWIW, I feel that a well chosen degree (even at a significant cost) is worth it. You have to be smart about it, but I do know some people with 100k in loans from doing a BS at the best finance school in CA ,and they are making 250k/yr. That will only go up, and provided they aren't living fat, the loans will soon dissappear, and they will be able to FIRE very quickly.
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I was and still am so grateful to the U.S. For guaranteeing student loans. It was the only thing that made it possible for me to get an education that I otherwise couldn't have afforded. These days, the attitude is so different. Reminds me of people in other countries who will do just about anything to get an education, versus in the U.S., so many kids want to drop out, cut classes, not take it seriously.
If you make everything too easy, it's just not valued as much.
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I was and still am so grateful to the U.S. For guaranteeing student loans. It was the only thing that made it possible for me to get an education that I otherwise couldn't have afforded.
Well, you could have joined the military and gotten a scholarship, or moved to Germany and got a college education for free...
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I didn't make a great financial decision with my degree. It was great in a lot of other ways, but financially? Anyway, I am still paying for it now. I have more than enough money in the bank to just pay it off now and be done with it, but the interest rate is so low (pure luck), I'm in no rush.
What puzzles me is the number of people who are in my position. You have a poorly marketable degree and are in debt from it. The solution to some of these people is to continue to take on more debt pursuing some other, most likely questionably marketable, degree. I just don't understand how you get out of a hole by digging it even deeper. But I worked in higher education for several years and saw this over and over again. People with 2 to 10 times my debt chomping at the bit to sign up for even more debt. One of the biggest and most ironic reasons is that they needed to be in school because otherwise their student debt would come due and they didn't have the money to pay for their first degrees. They would just desperately ask for two classes, any two classes, anything so that they wouldn't have to pay back their debt. Of course, they would be paying for these courses with...yep, more student loans. They would do this until they hit the student loan max and then the shit hits the fan for them I guess. People would come in, say they couldn't get a job or the job they thought with X degree(s), so they think Y degree is a 'sure bet', let's load up the loans for it without a second thought without even trying to pay the first mistake off first!
Quite frankly, I myself would love to go back to school. I'd love to study all kinds of things. I think I would be a professional student if I could. But I still owe for my first degree, and even if I didn't, another degree is prohibitively expensive. I have just had to learn how to make what I have work for me. I can't gamble tens of thousands of dollars on a 'maybe'. Learned my lesson about that the first time around.
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1) I just turned 47, and feel like I have made a huge mistake with my education.
(snip)
I don't regret it at all
(snip)
I think I was in a panic for a long time, wanting out of admin work. And now, with huge student loan payments coming due, guess where I am? Back in admin work, and this time for much much longer. Feels like a prison sentence of sorts.
Which is it? You made a mistake or you didn't? Are we lamenting that you didn't think shit through, or is it the fault of the system? :P
2) I find it absolutely disgusting that we have fucked ourselves over by requesting and deliberately accepting (fixed that) loans at 6.8%, yet banks and auto companies are getting bailed out with taxpayers dollars with a .75% interest rate. This has WE HAVE (fixed that too) completely ruined my future, my partners future, and it has potentially ruined my daughters future.
Kate May 4, 2015 Michigan
Corrections added. Where the hell is the sense of personal responsibility for choices here?
3) I recently graduated from Boston University. I'm from a middle class family, and apparently my parents "made too much money on paper" for me to receive financial aid. They never intended to assist in paying my tuition,
Oh for fuck's sake, if they weren't going to help, you knew that ahead of time.
...but I was still required to put their incomes on my FAFSA form. I received VERY little aid to attend BU, a school that costs over $50,000 per year to attend. With about $200,000 in student loan debt, and a degree in the arts, there is no end in sight to paying down my loans. Now I am stuck at home, totally dependent on my parents, working full time at a very poorly paying job, and giving every single paycheck directly to Sallie Mae. I know there are many others like me out there, and something needs to be done in this country about this insane system of robbing students blind.
Yes, another poor student who had a gun held to their head and went totally unwilling to an unmarketable degree at an overpriced institution in a HCOL area. Will someone please track down the gangs that are doing this?
4) I teach GED and other subjects at a small rural Native American College.
(snip)
I drive a car that is from the 90's
(snip)
and I do not wear fancy clothes so I don't have any where to make budget cuts
(snip)
Bambi
If you can't use an apostrophe correctly, and you don't know that "anywhere" is one word, your degree was a waste and you shouldn't be teaching anyone... and FFS, who names their kid Bambi? Maybe we can blame the parents for this one's failures....
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I drive a car that is from the 90's
If you can't use an apostrophe correctly, [...] your degree was a waste and you shouldn't be teaching anyone...
(Internal quotation truncated by me.)
I dislike the use of apostrophes to pluralise numbers, but some decent writers use it. It's not evidence of lack of education. It's just a different typographical preference. The same writers who advocate this convention also tend to use apostrophes to pluralise initialisms (including single letters used as words).
If I felt like challenging these writers, I would suggest that limiting the apostrophe to marking the genitive case promotes consistency, and that it shouldn't be used inconsistently and arbitrarily for other purposes such as pluralisation. I would not challenge them by asserting that their "degree was a waste".
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Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
This. Additionally parents and high schools push hard to go to college. They paint a very rosy picture of college life in general, and tell you that college degrees automatically mean a very comfortable wage and that jobs grow on trees if you only go to college...
It's like that in the UK too but now I think more and more graduates are realising that they have been lied to and that their degree isn't worth much. Student debts are far lower over here at least.
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To that point, I know a lot of people making 6 figures who have been just lucky.
I don't know anyone who's making that much money through luck. I think success sometimes looks like luck from the outside.
The two biggest determining factors for "life success" are your family and your connections (which is related to your family). I have gotten every job I ever had by having connections. My grades in college were really high. I was very involved in community service and clubs. The only thing that mattered was who I knew. That's how it is for everyone and anybody who says otherwise is either lying or clueless.
I agree that family is important in your eventual success. Your family instills values in you from a young age and they either encourage or discourage you to value education and search out opportunities. But I don't agree that having a supportive family is a ticket to success, while lack of such a family is an automatic failure. I know too many people who don't fit this mold.
And connections are valuable, but my husband went straight into his current job from college. He had references from professors, but nothing else. Several teachers in my department were hired from job fairs; again, they had references, but not connections to our state. Yes, connections can be valuable and they make life easier, but a person can get his foot in the door without them.
And, no, I'm neither lying nor clueless.
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To that point, I know a lot of people making 6 figures who have been just lucky.
I don't know anyone who's making that much money through luck. I think success sometimes looks like luck from the outside.
The two biggest determining factors for "life success" are your family and your connections (which is related to your family). I have gotten every job I ever had by having connections. My grades in college were really high. I was very involved in community service and clubs. The only thing that mattered was who I knew. That's how it is for everyone and anybody who says otherwise is either lying or clueless.
I agree that family is important in your eventual success. Your family instills values in you from a young age and they either encourage or discourage you to value education and search out opportunities. But I don't agree that having a supportive family is a ticket to success, while lack of such a family is an automatic failure. I know too many people who don't fit this mold.
And connections are valuable, but my husband went straight into his current job from college. He had references from professors, but nothing else. Several teachers in my department were hired from job fairs; again, they had references, but not connections to our state. Yes, connections can be valuable and they make life easier, but a person can get his foot in the door without them.
And, no, I'm neither lying nor clueless.
You really need to read the WHOLE thing and not skip, filter, or fill-in things.
The said The two biggest determining factors... There is one more. And it is really related to the tow that he mentioned. It's The Luck You Have. Sure, no connection, bullshit family? Well, you can go far and do well with just some references. I would call those connections myself but if you want to consider them a separate animal I will allow it for the discussion. As long as we agree on the terms.
Simply knowing this guy or that guy who got in with something and didn't have a hard "connection" and didn't come from a family with money or "pull" doesn't mean they are not the two biggest determiners. What SpicyMcHaggus meant at the basis is success depends far more on things beyond your knowledge and control than on anything you can actuate personally.
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I drive a car that is from the 90's
If you can't use an apostrophe correctly, [...] your degree was a waste and you shouldn't be teaching anyone...
(Internal quotation truncated by me.)
I dislike the use of apostrophes to pluralise numbers, but some decent writers use it. It's not evidence of lack of education. It's just a different typographical preference. The same writers who advocate this convention also tend to use apostrophes to pluralise initialisms (including single letters used as words).
I don't completely reject the use of an apostrophe to demarcate a number or acronym, but the space vacated by "19" absolutely requires one.
My comment was a little over-the-top, to be sure, but this is a legitimate failure (albeit a small one).
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I don't completely reject the use of an apostrophe to demarcate a number or acronym, but the space vacated by "19" absolutely requires one.
I don't agree with that. In fact, it wouldn't even occur to me to write an apostrophe before "90s". It doesn't need to be viewed as an abbreviation of "1990s"; it's an independent construction.
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These people are looking for their debts to be forgiven after they agreed to the terms of the loans and had no problem taking the $$$$$ when it was offered. Do you really believe their loans should be forgiven because they are just stupid?
It's equally stupid to place all of the blame on the debtor and none on the person writing the checks. Banks themselves are more than willing to write off massive checks for student education, because people are largely stuck with those payments for life. This safety just provides incentive for banks to give out loans like candy. If these loans were not unforgivable, perhaps banks would be more stringent than to offer an 18 year old who "wants to discover herself" through the arts a check for $200,000 to a liberal arts school.
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This thread is disgusting and just reeks of privilege. Why isn't there an unsubscribe button?
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This thread is disgusting and just reeks of privilege. Why isn't there an unsubscribe button?
.....and yet you keep coming back to this thread to post numerous times over the last month!!! LOL!!!!!l
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This thread is disgusting and just reeks of privilege. Why isn't there an unsubscribe button?
Click on the "Unnotify" button at the top or the bottom of unsubscribe.
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This is required reading for basically everybody who posts on this thread or most of the other threads in this sub-forum: http://imgur.com/gallery/h82vC (http://imgur.com/gallery/h82vC)
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A lot of very privileged people have commented so far on this thread. I ended up with a lot of student loan debt from college and grad school ($74,000 at one point) and the reason I ended up with it was because I didn't understand money or what college degrees led to real income. I didn't know either of those things because I grew up in poverty and my parents were more interested in having me "age out" of being their responsibility than to teach me life skills. (They also didn't have very many life skills of their own to share with me.) It's easy to call people stupid when you don't understand the challenges they face. I got lucky that I was able to get a job working at a credit union where I could learn about bank accounts, loans, etc. and figure out how to monetize my degree. (I nearly didn't get the job too, because my credit was terrible at the time.)
You can't reasonably expect someone to go out of their way to learn life skills that they don't know exist and don't know they should be pursuing, especially when the entire country drills into their heads that they are losers unless they get a college degree of some kind in a field that is personally interesting to them (and the money will follow. Bullshit.) Unfortunately, America wants most young people to learn through the "School of Hard Knocks" and they end up in difficult situations like those on that web page.
If your parents were poor, then you should have qualified for financial aid. I also grew up in poverty and I had to walk to the local library to get my fafsa application. I then had to fill it out by myself and mail it in.
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I dunno guys, the US spends over $550,000,000,000 on its military each year and yet getting a college degree is enormously expensive. How fucked up is that ? Geopolitical shite wins over your people's well being....way to go.
It seems that the US education model is creating a lot of ....well lets be honest.....indentured slaves. Before you all carp on about how these people are fools and "I got out of six figure debt on Ramen noodles" remember most people are totally shit with money/finances and always will be. Maybe basic finance ISN'T taught for a reason.
Rant over.
Sounds like you've been reading John Taylor Gatto - you know, US education system goal is to create obedient workers who never pipe up! I agree with that.
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I was and still am so grateful to the U.S. For guaranteeing student loans. It was the only thing that made it possible for me to get an education that I otherwise couldn't have afforded.
Well, you could have joined the military and gotten a scholarship, or moved to Germany and got a college education for free...
That is true, and I did in fact have ROTC scholarships waiting for me at certain schools. I was scared of a lot of things back then and chose a less expensive semi-public school instead of a commitment. I guess I did have more choices than I thought. It didn't feel that way at the time. All the samel, extremely grateful for the opportunities that still abound for all types of students.
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I do actually feel sorry for some of them. So many are very young when they start college. Many are conditioned to believe certain things since they were small children. They are conditioned to believe this is the only way to success and it will always pay off. I see a huge difference in my kids vs some of their peers. Simply because of the belief system they were brought up in.
My spouse and I are a prime example. I was brought up by parents that saved and paid for things. His parents did lots of payments. He thought that was how everyone was and at a young age got in a bit of financial trouble. He was conditioned all his life to believe that was the way it was done. I on the other hand was raised another way and saw it very differently.
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Well, I don't find it hard to feel sorry for them. They meant well, they didn't intend to cheat anyone or be dishonest. They made unwise choices and now are stuck in a terrible cycle of debt. I don't think it helps to pour scorn on people who made unwise choices. I've made many in my day, not so much with money, but certainly in other realms, and it was sheer luck that I emerged fairly unscathed. If negotiating this complicated world were easy, more people would be better at it.
Agreed
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Here are a few of the stories told. I really have to wonder WTF were some of these people thinking. Alot of "oh poor poor me" going on.
Dude you should become a politician, kicking people in the nuts when there down seems to be the mantra to the GOP this days. I guess it's easier than having to understand a problem and come up with solutions. It will be interesting if the GOP win back the presidency (and keep the senate and the house), OMG we actually have to govern!
Student debt has been turned into a profit centre for lenders and colleges. The lenders have the ultimate safe loan - that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. The colleges get to massively over-inflate their tuitions. The students, all of whom are young and stupid, get screwed.
And in the end you have a massive number of reasonably intelligent, creative young people who must GET A JOB AND KEEP IT in order to pay the debt. No room for risk, or entrepreneurship or fresh ideas. They must become beholden to an employer as soon as possible, and stay there for a decade or longer.
I agree but that would force people to actually think and that seems to beyond most peoples this days, why else would people be so willing to vote against their own best interests.
As an aside big media is rather confused by Bernie Sanders, polling in the low 10s or less, very clear Hilary is going to crush him big time, yet his name and campaign keep coming up on social media and reddit. The reason is very simple the millennials are just being crushed by the economy today but us baby boomers are more than happy to lecture them about working hard etc etc.
Afterthought: the conservatives and GOP are so focused in the quest to destroy Obama and kicking the poor in the nuts that they are completely obvious to the fact America is turning into a fascist police state. Just google Asset forfeiture. The police can knock on your door seize everything you own (money cars house stocks bonds etc) simply by declaring that you are a criminal. There is no burden of proof! At the moment it's mostly preying on the poor, hence the reason the GOP are silent. But the day they come and seize everything MMM owns than it will be too late.
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Dude you should become a politician, kicking people in the nuts when there down
These fuck ups are kicking themselves in the nuts with the many stupid life choices they make.
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The common theme here is that all of these people are what I've heard called "financially illiterate", like the vast majority of people on the planet.
What I'd love to see for each of the examples mentioned on this thread is the amount of money that goes into their account every month as earnings and then an itemized breakdown of all their spending for the last few years. I bet we'd see some absolutely shocking spending habits in relation to what they earn as well as other debt besides the student loans.
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Other random thoughts that may or may not be relevant.
Imagine for a second that MMM (or even the slightly more hardcore ERE http://earlyretirementextreme.com/sitemap.xml (http://earlyretirementextreme.com/sitemap.xml)) style frugality was taught as standard in every school in the world, and was successfully applied, 100% of the time, by 100% of the students for the rest of their lives. The global economy would crumble. Think of all the clueless consumers that would be lost. The likes of Apple and Microsoft would vanish overnight.
Instead what we've got is a system that does seem like a massive conspiracy designed to take advantage of the financially illiterate and ignorant masses.
The best thing we can all do is ensure that both we, and our children, do not follow in their footsteps. I really do think that people (not on this forum but in the offline world generally) downplay the role of parental influence in how someone handles money.
A couple I know both have parents that were not great with money and guess what, they've turned out exactly the same. Her parents were poor and always wanted more. They even offered to take out a loan to help them pay for their $20k wedding. His parents are average savers and average spenders. The difference is that when he was growing up, all they ever talked about was the spending and the stuff/things they bought. They rarely spoke about savings in front of my friend when he was growing up, so it never occurred to him that it might be good to save.
On another note I've realised in the past 5 years or so that many of the hardest working and most driven people in the workplace are those with the most debt. I've never had any debt (I learned early from good parents) and thus I've always been a little more relaxed at work. Thanks to being frugal I can cope with ONLY earning $31k a year, and have never been one of those seemingly crazed people who will sleep/kill/lie/ass-kiss their way to a higher pay grade.
Reading the examples in this thread reminds me a lot of people I've worked with in the last 10 or so years. They started off with fairly bad spending patterns and got into some debt. Then they went to university because getting a degree is just what you do. That meant racking up a load of student debt. Now they are working themselves silly earn as much money as possible in order to fund what they believe is the only lifestyle available to them in the developed world, whilst coping with making minimum payments on the mountain of student debt.
I honestly pity them because they still subscribe to the belief that external appearance tells you everything you need to know about a persons wealth, success and happiness.
My "alternative" path was to avoid the student debt altogether and take a decent paying but lower paid job and live more frugally. I'm going to ensure my children will be taught this from a young age.
Thinking back to "The Millionaire Next Door" which I read some time ago, it seems that all these people are paying thousands of dollars to potentially improve their financial offense (because that is what they are told they should do) and yet they don't realise that improving your financial defense doesn't cost a cent (people are rarely told anything about this).
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These people who keep crying how it's unfair that they should have to pay back their loans should shut up and read this!
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/06/05/success-even-after-self-destruction/
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Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
This. Additionally parents and high schools push hard to go to college. They paint a very rosy picture of college life in general, and tell you that college degrees automatically mean a very comfortable wage and that jobs grow on trees if you only go to college...
The American higher education system needs help. Too much emphasis on degree, not enough on hard work and hey that might mean trade school and that's just as valid of an option as going to get a BA in Film. (In fact, better. One wonders if the American Dream sometimes puts kids at odds with picking a degree wtih reasonable prospects. )
....In somewhat related news, I DO have a hard time feeling sorry for the Duke porn star. Her article in TIME made me want to punch a wall. The problem is not that as an upper middle class person, you can't get a good financial aid package. The problem is that you chose to go to a school that costs a fuck ton, whereas I believe she had a full scholarship to Vanderbilt and should have been able to get a great scholarship at a public uni. This was, to me, the equivalent of "woe is me, I can't make the car payments on my new Tesla and now I need a second job". No, you need to not buy a Tesla.
Now, first-generation state school kids who have been misguided into massive loans and live an MMM lifestyle? I can get behind those people.
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The American higher education system needs help. Too much emphasis on degree, not enough on hard work and hey that might mean trade school and that's just as valid of an option as going to get a BA in Film. (In fact, better. One wonders if the American Dream sometimes puts kids at odds with picking a degree wtih reasonable prospects. )
"Just do what you love and the money will take care of itself" is what nearly every middle-class American kid has drummed into his or her head for years. Is it really that surprising that they believe it?
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The American higher education system needs help. Too much emphasis on degree, not enough on hard work and hey that might mean trade school and that's just as valid of an option as going to get a BA in Film. (In fact, better. One wonders if the American Dream sometimes puts kids at odds with picking a degree wtih reasonable prospects. )
"Just do what you love and the money will take care of itself" is what nearly every middle-class American kid has drummed into his or her head for years. Is it really that surprising that they believe it?
I think there is a big shift going on in terms of this. For most Boomers, at least the older ones, college was pretty affordable and it usually did mean a good income. They practically invented "Do what you love, etc." For Gen X, raised by Silents and Boomers, the same thing was drilled into our heads, and although college was getting more expensive, it was still assumed that it would get you a pretty good job (most Gen Xers were in college/graduating during the 90s).
Then came the 2000s...with a rapidly tightening job market, skyrocketing college costs, and two recessions. So the Millennials are facing tougher conditions, but given that they are raised by Boomer and Gen X parents who might not fully realize how much the world has changed, I think the message of spending educational monies on only the most brutally practical majors/skills is still being sporadically presented.
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"Just do what you love and the money will take care of itself" is what nearly every middle-class American kid has drummed into his or her head for years.
For people going to college in the 60s that worked. Management jobs required a degree, didn't matter what degree it was just a filter. So if everybody got a degree everyone would be a manager.
Right now, 3 years extra programming experience at age 21 and a couple of successful open source or app store projects are worth a lot more than 90% of CS degrees in the job market. And instead of being $100k down in the FIRE race you are $100K up.
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Why don't the poor people just all eat cake? [/sarcasm]
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Right now, 3 years extra programming experience at age 21 and a couple of successful open source or app store projects are worth a lot more than 90% of CS degrees in the job market. And instead of being $100k down in the FIRE race you are $100K up.
I'd say banking on a kid creating a couple of successful app store projects between age 18 and 21 is probably a worse bet than a college degree. It has the bonus of not putting you in debt, but a vast majority of mobile phone software development is actually done by a small handful of people and companies.
Of course if you manage to develop some great apps, smart companies will hire you and you can even go into business on your own if you want, but the people who write hit apps are usually either exceptionally talented or exceptionally lucky.
"Be exceptional" isn't really advice so I think your average kid who is decent with computers is still better off getting a degree and trying to find a job either in IT or developing proprietary software for a business.
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Right now, 3 years extra programming experience at age 21 and a couple of successful open source or app store projects are worth a lot more than 90% of CS degrees in the job market. And instead of being $100k down in the FIRE race you are $100K up.
I'd say banking on a kid creating a couple of successful app store projects between age 18 and 21 is probably a worse bet than a college degree. It has the bonus of not putting you in debt, but a vast majority of mobile phone software development is actually done by a small handful of people and companies.
Of course if you manage to develop some great apps, smart companies will hire you and you can even go into business on your own if you want, but the people who write hit apps are usually either exceptionally talented or exceptionally lucky.
"Be exceptional" isn't really advice so I think your average kid who is decent with computers is still better off getting a degree and trying to find a job either in IT or developing proprietary software for a business.
I don't necessarily disagree with you on the virtues of acting doing something instead of going to college, but not everyone is going to be good at this, and even among those that are, not many are going to be make a living doing so.
That said, I do agree with anyone doing anything to earn a living instead of going to college. College is fun, but it really doesn't do much to prepare you for life or a career...unless you get a degree that is worth it's wait.
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"Just do what you love and the money will take care of itself" is what nearly every middle-class American kid has drummed into his or her head for years. Is it really that surprising that they believe it?
That's not exactly how I remember hearing it. In my day, we substituted "Find a career that you enjoy" for "do what you love". I think the nincompoops of today believe that if they love playing video games, someone will find them and pay them to create the idea for the next big video game sensation. It just doesn't translate into develop a creative idea and follow through with gaining the skills you need to make a career of it.
I truly believe that many of today's graduates believe that things "just happen" to people who have become successful and they feel entitled to the same level of success.
A millenial I know was applying for a rather high-level job as a financial auditor and for which he was grossly unqualified. He had zero experience in the field, but does use Excel as part of his job. I asked him what he knew about the position and whether he had ever done anything remotely like it before. He explained that most jobs have a set of process instructions that document the work and that he would just follow the manual. I was flabbergasted at the complete lack of understanding.
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This is required reading for basically everybody who posts on this thread or most of the other threads in this sub-forum: http://imgur.com/gallery/h82vC (http://imgur.com/gallery/h82vC)
I agree, and loved this comic (posted it on my FB page).
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I'd say banking on a kid creating a couple of successful app store projects between age 18 and 21 is probably a worse bet than a college degree.
I didn't mean rely on writing an app to make money.
I meant that if I interview a new CS grad from anywhere other than a top5 dept then I am not going to rate their degree above 3 years experience from somebody without a degree. Especially if that person's experience involved the full, design, build, market, sell, support, improve life cycle of their own app (or popular open source project).
The question is will a degree or 3 years extra experience and a bunch of side projects impress a recruiter more ...
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I'd say banking on a kid creating a couple of successful app store projects between age 18 and 21 is probably a worse bet than a college degree.
I didn't mean rely on writing an app to make money.
I meant that if I interview a new CS grad from anywhere other than a top5 dept then I am not going to rate their degree above 3 years experience from somebody without a degree. Especially if that person's experience involved the full, design, build, market, sell, support, improve life cycle of their own app (or popular open source project).
The question is will a degree or 3 years extra experience and a bunch of side projects impress a recruiter more ...
Absolutely I agree. We are looking for a receptionist at work and the owner is harping on about college, whereas we haven't really received that many resumes. I've mentioned that
a. It really doesn't affect a qualified person (if they can type and answer the phone then they can likely do the job)
b. A college educated person that takes this job likely will leave it as soon as they get something better
He disagreed, while I am looking for someone that has some work experience, and don't care if they went to college or not.
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I know that we like to pretend on this forum that we're all in Lake Woebegone and everyone is above average, but that's not how reality works. Some people in this world are going to have to work shit jobs because they are not capable of doing better. The question then becomes whether people with shit jobs deserve to be able to at least scrape out a living from it or whether they should die in the gutter. The majority of Americans think they should die in the gutter, which is just sad.
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So telling them that they are a special little rainbow and if they borrowed $100k to do a worthless degree then the world owes them a living isn't helping.
hint if your degree has "studies" or "history of" in the title it is probably useless.
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I grew up piss poor, and graduated HS in 2010, and saw the great 2008 crash first hand as I was preparing to venture into the world.. I would be willing to bet that I may be the youngest, or one of the youngest here on this board. However, I for sure as shit didn't like the idea of going to college to get a degree costing thousands and "potentially" getting a job.
A few months before graduation, I was called up to the guidance councilors office. "So, Migrator, what are your plans for college? You have a great GPA, are reasonably intelligent, and yet I have not heard a peep from you about your college choices, unlike your peers."
Me. "I don't see the point in buying a degree that I may not be able to pay for, as I watch the economy crash all around me. Especially when I see the same people who taught me a few years ago get 'let go' because the district can't pay their salaries. Many of whom were the same teachers espousing loans and college and the dream."
Councilor. "...."
Me. "yeah, no. a few of my friends have been trying to get jobs with their coveted degrees for two years, and have been lucky to land a McDonald's position. I'll pass."
I found a recruiter a year later after realizing I couldn't live out of my car forever and be a rockstar, and have had my college summarily paid for, while I continue to save money and work. Lesson here? Join the Army kids, use tuition assistance, and stay in the green rather than put so much red on your ledger.
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I grew up piss poor, and graduated HS in 2010, and saw the great 2008 crash first hand as I was preparing to venture into the world.. I would be willing to bet that I may be the youngest, or one of the youngest here on this board. However, I for sure as shit didn't like the idea of going to college to get a degree costing thousands and "potentially" getting a job.
A few months before graduation, I was called up to the guidance councilors office. "So, Migrator, what are your plans for college? You have a great GPA, are reasonably intelligent, and yet I have not heard a peep from you about your college choices, unlike your peers."
Me. "I don't see the point in buying a degree that I may not be able to pay for, as I watch the economy crash all around me. Especially when I see the same people who taught me a few years ago get 'let go' because the district can't pay their salaries. Many of whom were the same teachers espousing loans and college and the dream."
Councilor. "...."
Me. "yeah, no. a few of my friends have been trying to get jobs with their coveted degrees for two years, and have been lucky to land a McDonald's position. I'll pass."
I found a recruiter a year later after realizing I couldn't live out of my car forever and be a rockstar, and have had my college summarily paid for, while I continue to save money and work. Lesson here? Join the Army kids, use tuition assistance, and stay in the green rather than put so much red on your ledger.
I debated service to pay for college (ROTC,reserve,active).
My father (Navy Nuclear Engineering grad) advised me not to.
Long hours, low pay, paperwork and govt red tape. Would be easier to work part time, he said. He was right.
I would NOT recommend kids join the army. I would recommend they find a flexible job that pays ok, and funnel that money to college fees and expenses. Bank the rest. I bartended thru college. I averaged $18/hr 2-3 nights a week. I didn't have to ship off when Monkey-in-Chief started bombing Iraq, or when Monkey-in-chief-2 started bombing afghanistan. I didn't have to drive 3 hrs away to the drill center every month.
There's just a lot of other options. Waiting tables and tending a bar are zero-skill jobs. You can easily find someone willing to train you and be an expert in less than 6 months.
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I debated service to pay for college (ROTC,reserve,active).
My father (Navy Nuclear Engineering grad) advised me not to.
Long hours, low pay, paperwork and govt red tape. Would be easier to work part time, he said. He was right.
I would NOT recommend kids join the army. I would recommend they find a flexible job that pays ok, and funnel that money to college fees and expenses. Bank the rest. I bartended thru college. I averaged $18/hr 2-3 nights a week. I didn't have to ship off when Monkey-in-Chief started bombing Iraq, or when Monkey-in-chief-2 started bombing afghanistan. I didn't have to drive 3 hrs away to the drill center every month.
There's just a lot of other options. Waiting tables and tending a bar are zero-skill jobs. You can easily find someone willing to train you and be an expert in less than 6 months.
Long hours? yeah, that is a thing. The pay really isn't as bad as you would think, as it is offset by allowances and other goodies. Free healthcare, gym membership, dental, eyecare, food. Got my eyes fixed with Laser Surgery free of cost. I have not paid a dime of tuition since joining. Lets calculate a few things out now, shall we?
Base pay: 2238
BAS (its a pay for food) 367
BAH (Housing allowance for my area) 1098
FLPP (Foreign language proficiency pay) 300
total in: 4003 per month. (Base cash assets)
Other benefits:
"Current Army policy limits TA (Tuition Assistance) to 130 semester hours of undergraduate credit or baccalaureate degree, whichever comes first and 39 semester hours of graduate credit or master's degree whichever comes first"
Cap is $250 per semester hour. so, $42,250 dollars of free money to go to college.
Add the medical benefits. Free doctor visits, free dental, free vision. Free Custom PRK or Lasik. (3-4 thousand dollar surgery)
In the past year, I have gone to the doctor about ten times for various things. Two of which required hospitalization for a few days. One of which required a ride on an ambulance. I have gotten a few fillings, and two teeth cleanings. I also completed physical therapy for when I tore my abductor muscle.
I paid absolutely nothing for all of that, which enables me to live an active and healthy life.
I don't drive three hours to the Drill center. I don't drive. I ride my bike from my house to work. Every day.
Do you know the difference between my resume coming out of the Army and the resume of some guy fresh out of college? Mine shows real work experience. It shows punctuality, the ability to accomplish tasks. Coupled with speaking a foreign language, an associates in that language, and a bachelor's in International Relations from Oregon State University, along with stellar references from multiple military and non military co workers/bosses? I'll take the odd deployment when looking at the benefits reaped.
There is far more to the Military than simply shoving off to Afghanistan.. If you put just a small ounce of effort in, you can make the military work for you.
A small bit of discomfort is well worth not having to take out loans, burden your parents with paying for college, or scraping by waiting tables and bar tending. Why waste time with a zero skill job when you can have education and a job that requires quite a bit of skill?
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Do you know the difference between my resume coming out of the Army and the resume of some guy fresh out of college? Mine shows real work experience. It shows punctuality, the ability to accomplish tasks. Coupled with speaking a foreign language, an associates in that language, and a bachelor's in International Relations from Oregon State University, along with stellar references from multiple military and non military co workers/bosses? I'll take the odd deployment when looking at the benefits reaped.
Wow, I seriously applaud you, Migrator. Thank you for your dedication and service. Have you considered helping the Army with recruiting? Because I think what you laid out here would be very convincing to give many kids the skills for a bright future.
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Wow, I seriously applaud you, Migrator. Thank you for your dedication and service. Have you considered helping the Army with recruiting? Because I think what you laid out here would be very convincing to give many kids the skills for a bright future.
Thanks brother. If I didn't already know how recruiters really are expected to work already, I would absolutely do so. However, pressures from on high demand that critical billets be filled with bodies, rather than thoughtfully selecting soldiers to where they would fit best. Or want to go.
I will honestly most likely stay in the Army, as I find it enjoyable. Very few other places offer the ability to see the world, save close to 75% of my income, and still eat/sleep comfortably. 20 years is worth a sizable pension, as well as some of the best medical benefits. I'll be retired by 38... just a bit over 16 more years to enjoy :D
Were anybody to approach me, though, I would absolutely recommend the Army in a heartbeat. Men require discipline, I truly believe that.. But they also need space to make mistakes to learn. I am a lucky one, 23 and debt free, educated, and squirreling away a sizable portion into the TSP. Had I gone to college straight out of school, I would have been miserable. As an 18 year old male, I did not know enough to truly decide the correct path. Some people dog on the Military, and say its the easy way out. Maybe so, I can't really say its been too hard. But what I will say is this; It is the one and only place where you can fuck up fairly severely, and still get paid while people straighten your dumb ass out. You don't have a boss, you have a grumpy grizzled mentor, who granted, can be a bit of a dick, but legitimately cares about your success and well being.
Its all about effort. And the military is the place where if you put in even the slightest amount, it is rewarded in multiples.
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This one says she was FORCED to take out a school loan! http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/
I have been on my own since I was a teenager. I never knew my father and my mother was an alcoholic and although I don't doubt whether or not she loved me, I know she loved her drugs and alcohol more. I was never formally adopted so when I went to apply for student loans, I had to emancipate myself from my mother just to be considered (Apparently working 3 jobs and pulling in just under $18,000 didn't qualify on its own.) It was rough, but I was determined to get my degree. I went to a local community college for 3 years and worked to support myself while I completed as many credits as I could before BEING FORCED TO TAKE OUT LOANS for my bachelor's degree. 2 years of commuting to campus and I still ended up with $26,000 in student loan debt. It was tough, but I did it. I graduated with my Bachelor of Arts in Middle School English Education in May of 2011. Yay! Now I could find a full-time job with benefits and be in a career that I loved! Except for the tiny little detail that there were no teaching jobs. The market was flooded with teachers and schools weren't replacing ones that retired. My 6 months post-graduation expired and it was time to pay back those loans. Then, in 2013, my husband was diagnosed with liver cancer and on June 29th of 2014, he received a liver transplant. We have been drowning in bills and scrambling just to make ends meet every month since the diagnosis. We were able to put payments on hold while he was home for 6 weeks after the transplant, but as soon as he went back to work, the payments resumed. We want to start our family, but how can we bring a child into this world knowing we can't make our payments as it is? It's been 4 years and I still owe over $23,000 in student loans. How can the government say we make "too much" for assistance when we can't pay our basic utility bills? How is it that we make "too much" when we are constantly deciding which necessities we will have this month and which ones we will not? How can we make "too much" when their definition of too much is not enough?
Jessica Beeson June 3, 2015 St. Charles, MO
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.roXlxaCb.dpuf
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And this one say's she is "TOO PROUD TO PAY" the $$$$ she owes! LOL!!
Growing up poor wasn't anything outside the norm for me. When I hit 14 however, I met my real father. He was loaded. I ended up graduating with academic honors and even got into Purdue. It was a big deal since no one in my family had even tried to go to college. Once there I did extremely well. My father told me I didn't have to get loans and that he would pay out of pocket. His exact words were "You won't have to worry about a dime". His business started going through the struggle that every small business did and he decided that what I wanted to do with my life wasn't good enough (Graphic Design) and that he would no longer pay for it. I was an -A- -B- student taking 5 classes ("crap classes") and working part time just to eat. Once we severed ties he left me with about $4,000 worth of debt after my second semester. I AM TOO PROUD TO PAY this amount and it has been since 2009. I am curious if this debt will ever go away or if I will forever just owe this amount.
Brittany June 3, 2015 Indiana
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.fHCHvxY9.dpuf
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Once we severed ties he left me with about $4,000 worth of debt after my second semester. I AM TOO PROUD TO PAY this amount and it has been since 2009. I am curious if this debt will ever go away or if I will forever just owe this amount.
Brittany June 3, 2015 Indiana
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.fHCHvxY9.dpuf
Oh, Brittany, the correct answer is "neither" -- the debt will not just go away, and you also will not forever "just owe this amount." Rather, the debt will continue to accrue interest and late fees such that you owe even more!!! Too "proud" to pay? WTF!
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This one says she was FORCED to take out a school loan! http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/
I have been on my own since I was a teenager. I never knew my father and my mother was an alcoholic and although I don't doubt whether or not she loved me, I know she loved her drugs and alcohol more. I was never formally adopted so when I went to apply for student loans, I had to emancipate myself from my mother just to be considered (Apparently working 3 jobs and pulling in just under $18,000 didn't qualify on its own.) It was rough, but I was determined to get my degree. I went to a local community college for 3 years and worked to support myself while I completed as many credits as I could before BEING FORCED TO TAKE OUT LOANS for my bachelor's degree. 2 years of commuting to campus and I still ended up with $26,000 in student loan debt. It was tough, but I did it. I graduated with my Bachelor of Arts in Middle School English Education in May of 2011. Yay! Now I could find a full-time job with benefits and be in a career that I loved! Except for the tiny little detail that there were no teaching jobs. The market was flooded with teachers and schools weren't replacing ones that retired. My 6 months post-graduation expired and it was time to pay back those loans. Then, in 2013, my husband was diagnosed with liver cancer and on June 29th of 2014, he received a liver transplant. We have been drowning in bills and scrambling just to make ends meet every month since the diagnosis. We were able to put payments on hold while he was home for 6 weeks after the transplant, but as soon as he went back to work, the payments resumed. We want to start our family, but how can we bring a child into this world knowing we can't make our payments as it is? It's been 4 years and I still owe over $23,000 in student loans. How can the government say we make "too much" for assistance when we can't pay our basic utility bills? How is it that we make "too much" when we are constantly deciding which necessities we will have this month and which ones we will not? How can we make "too much" when their definition of too much is not enough?
Jessica Beeson June 3, 2015 St. Charles, MO
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.roXlxaCb.dpuf
Yeah, I guess she wasn't forced to get student loans. After all, she could have just chosen not to get that teaching certificate and just be a substitute teacher making $75 a day (before taxes).
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This one says she is a "victim" because she CHOSE to take out a school loan, yet she went back again and took out another school loan so I guess she CHOSE to be a "victim" a 2nd time! : )
I am example of someone who fell victim to the "system". The system is: do well in school (elementary through high school) in order to go to a good college. Go to college, get a loan if tuition is not affordable. Get a degree to get a good job. The salary from having a degree, will be enough to pay back those loans. Easy peasy. Well, I needed to have real world experience to learn that I didn't HAVE TO go to college, especially when I didn't know what I wanted to study. After I graduated with a Bachelor's I didn't know where to go. I couldn't find a job, and a college professor suggested I go back to school and get a Master's degree. So I did, and realized after 3 years of graduate study, that I couldn't go on any further. I was so burned out from so many years of working hard at school. I dropped out and now have about $100,000 in student loan debt. I'm full of so much regret. Sure, higher education has its benefits, but it's not for everyone and I wish I had learned that BEFORE going to college and ruining my life with debt. The debt is so large that I don't want to burden anyone else with it. So, I will not get married, I will not have children. I'm very lucky to be one of the few college graduates who found employment, but I'm afraid that I'll be paying off my loans until I die. What kind of life is that?
melody May 16, 2015 seattle, wa
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.GAEHuOYm.dpuf
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After I graduated with a Bachelor's I didn't know where to go. I couldn't find a job, and a college professor suggested I go back to school and get a Master's degree.
Asking a professor if you should go to grad school is like asking a Powerball winner if you should spend your last ten bucks on lottery tickets.
"Worked out great for me!"
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After I graduated with a Bachelor's I didn't know where to go. I couldn't find a job, and a college professor suggested I go back to school and get a Master's degree.
Asking a professor if you should go to grad school is like asking a Powerball winner if you should spend your last ten bucks on lottery tickets.
"Worked out great for me!"
I graduated from college in the middle of a recession. My parents encouraged me to attend graduate school, which I did, mostly on assistantships along with some student loans and a bit of family assistance. At the time, there were all these rumblings about the hordes of professors who would be retiring from academia by the end of the decade, leaving plenty of jobs for the taking. I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up, had always done well in school, and this seemed to be a good way to kill some time until the recession was over. A few years went by, and the rumors of unprecedented faculty retirement were proven to be wildly overstated, to put it mildly. Having realized by this point that teaching wasn't my calling, I knew that I had better get some real-world job experience before finishing my program, or else risk the possibility that no one would hire me.
Oh, and when did this all happen? The 1990s. This was before the full-scale adjunctification of higher education took hold. The internet was in still in its infancy, but that didn't stop graduate students from finding out through the academic-conference grapevine that it was common for a single tenure-track position at a liberal arts college to receive more than 400 applications. I can't feel sorry for people who borrow loads of money --for graduate and law school, at least-- then complain about how poor their job prospects are; how they can't afford to pay their loans back. The information has been out there for a long time. People continue to ignore it to their peril.
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I can't feel sorry for people who borrow loads of money --for graduate and law school, at least-- then complain about how poor their job prospects are; how they can't afford to pay their loans back. The information has been out there for a long time. People continue to ignore it to their peril.
Yep, us wastrels who thought that a 21st century economy might need some physics and math PhDs are exactly like the people who put a $70k weding on a credit card.
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Going into tens of thousands of dollars of debt in order to get a degree, and then being unable to find a well-paying job, may be silly and unwise, but come on — this is a whole order of magnitude different from being in horrific debt because you bought boats and toys and crazy-expensive new cars and a McMansion. People are told from all levels of society that education is the key to getting ahead, and to some extent that's right. Knowing how to get that education and what to aim for is complicated, and there's a whole segment of advertisers and for-profit schools trying to persuade people that their brand of expensive education is the golden ticket. But even when people fall victim to this, they're trying to do the right thing. They're trying to improve themselves and get a job and earn their way out of poverty. That's really different from people buying silly expensive items like there's no tomorrow and going into debt to do so. It's those consumerists that we really ought to be facepunching. The others sadly just got taken for a ride.
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This law should be in ALL states!!!
http://fusion.net/story/110165/default-on-your-student-loans-lose-your-license-in-these-22-states/
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This law should be in ALL states!!!
http://fusion.net/story/110165/default-on-your-student-loans-lose-your-license-in-these-22-states/
That's an awesome idea. That way, if you can't afford to repay your student loans, then they can prevent you from going to work to earn the money to pay your student loans. It's a foolproof plan!
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So telling them that they are a special little rainbow and if they borrowed $100k to do a worthless degree then the world owes them a living isn't helping.
hint if your degree has "studies" or "history of" in the title it is probably useless.
I concur!
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This genius thought for some reason his school loan was supposed to be a INTEREST FREE LOAN!! LOL!!
I had an $8,000 plus loan which I made all the payments on. When I checked on what should have been the last payment they told me I owed $7,946 because they put all my payments towards interest (there wasn't supposed to be any). I demanded documentation which they never provided and sent my loan to a collection agency that then demanded over $14,000. This issue has prevented me from obtaining an additional license that I need because the grantor now thinks I'm financially irresponsible
Andy Steinborn June 16, 2015 Las Vegas
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.E3n0JdTj.dpuf
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A few new ones:
Where do i begin? My student loans have been a pain in the neck since i left a 4 year college. It has destroyed my credit and it stresses me out. I went to a 4 year college back when i graduated high school in 2006. I didnt finish because the tuition went up and i could not afford to take out anymore loans on top of my mom being diagnosed with breast cancer. I took a year off to tend to my mother while also looking for constant work. that did not pay off. After about a year and a half i ended up going to a 2 year college where i did graduate but again finding work in my field as well as any other field was hard. To this day, I still have not found work in my field because no one wants to give you the opportunity if you dont have the "in office experience". After being frustrated with that and still dealing with my moms health, i ended up going to beauty school for 6 months. I applied for fafsa but due to my loans with shaw university, it was not able to pay full tuition so I still had to come out of my pocket $100 a month that i really did not have. I did not finish there because i ENDED UP GETTING PREGNANT and the reality of standing up on my feet all day did not comfort me. I do plan on going back to finish but the thought of applying for fafsa and it not being able to help me with tuition scares me. I am now back to being unemployed because my mom most recently has been dealing with neuropathy and other side effects from when she was taking chemo. My passion is doing hair but i cannot continue that education because my loans are holding me back. On top of being late with rent and utilities, i just dont have the money to pay back any loans which is why i keeping asking for deferments. If my student loans were forgiven, that would be a huge load off my back. I can finish following my dream on top of being financially stable to help my mom and family. I could also work on GETTING A NEW CAR for the car we have is no longer working and maybe even help my mom move to a better home. Having my loans forgiven will be the best thing that has happened to me, besides me having my daughter but i would be sooooo grateful and appreciative.
I have a good heart and I just dont want to worry anymore.
christina nolley August 13, 2015 charlotte, nc
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.cEcj0ABm.dpuf
Why do these people keep shitting out babies when they are broke?
I am a graduate of the now defunct Art Institute of New York Culinary Art program. I graduated in 2008 with all the hope and promise of being able to get a hands on career that would let my creativity flourish and allow me to build a promising life for myself. I came to the decision of the Art Institute after having a long discussion with my husband (then boyfriend who also attended but never received his certificate despite his completion of the program) about how much I enjoy baking, and being able to do art and bake simultaneously could be revolutionary. I was looking for colleges and saw the Art Institute everywhere. In my mind I believed if they have campuses all over and they are advertised frequently there has to be something good. WRONG. I attended the open house and took a small tour of the school followed a lecture claiming that they were the ONLY trade school accredited by the Department of Education. Oh how naive we were. I really believed this would change my life...and it did but not for the better. I met with the recruiter who sang songs of great starting salary (upwards of 50k) amazing job placement and a true environment that fostered both learning and creativity. I made my choice, payed the $100 application fee and continued the course to the financial adviser. I hit a small hiccup because in order to qualify for Financial Aid I needed my mothers Tax history. She completely refused to provide it. She said I had to figure it out on my own. (This same process had stopped me from attending an out of state college) I explained my situation to the adviser and she said " Well we'll just say you're independent since you work, say you don't live with her and you can just pull out some private loans, but don't worry you'll be able to pay them off no problem once you graduate." Everything following was painless. Filled out my information, was told to pick Sallie Mae (since that's what everyone else uses) for both my private and federal loan. I got approved and started classes only to learn 2 weeks in the program was closing down. I was told not to worry, our education wouldn't be effected and we'd have the same quality all the alumni had. We decided to stay the course, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Within a month more than half the faculty left. The entire facility was practically a ghost town save what few instructors stayed ( I would have to if I made $75.00 an hour) and the remaining student body. Everything we learned was minimal. I had a personal incident with a chef who chose to destroy a display cake that was made over 3 days and when I spoke to him asking him to not pick at it, he broke my project and proceeded to lob a piece that almost hit my face, had my friend not caught it. I had no one to report the incident to, no supervisors were on duty and the dean had quit. Flash forward it's time to graduate and I'm defeated. I don't feel like I learned anything extraordinary. No skills that could carry me into a future with this certification. I wound up finding my own job during my internship phase. When my job dissolved I was no longer able to receive any help from the faculty. There were never any job interviews set up for me. There was never any advocating on my behalf for a fare starting salary like they stated. Now it's 6 years later, I have a family, I STAY AT HOME WITH MY SON, because if I got a job I'd only pay for daycare. I cannot afford and have never been able to afford my student loan payments. I live in a veritable shit hole of an apartment and can't even afford to move. When my husband and I tried desperately to take a small personal loan out for a new apartment we were denied due our credit. Our debt exceeded our income. We would not be able to successfully pay it and our student loans off. Even now with our son we have to choose to either eat or pay our loans. We chose food so our kid wouldn't ever have to starve. Now we deal with possible wage garnishment, default in our loans and a black hole of debt that will never end. Go Ai!
Danielle Adorno August 10, 2015 New York
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.UoLtGovI.dpuf
I started out in college going for vascular technology, failing out of that, then changing majors. Since I changed majors, all the classes that I had in vascular technology didn't apply to my career, and I started paying more money to take psychology classes since I wanted to go into psychology. After that, I went for my masters in psychology taking on more student loans than I can handle. After my masters, I now have a minimum wage job supervising visitations and I'm also a CASA. I went on disability before I got my minimum wage job in 2012 because of personal reasons, could never get the correct documentation sent to them to defer my loans because of the confusing process, and now have interest rates upon interest rates for forbearances and on my unsubsidized student loans. I am now 33 years old, 150,000 dollars in debt and no way to get out. Please help!
Annita Bell July 11, 2015 Vancouver, WA
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.ZHItOBbI.dpuf
Those cry babies on this page should listen to this guy:
Ok so I have read many stories here and I feel very disgruntled by how many of your suffer. But my story will be a little different, it will be of hope. I took 16k in student loans from 2012 to 2015 to help me pay for expenses while I was attending school. I had full ride, but I knew I couldn't work full-time and keep good grades. In total at the beginning of 2014 I have 16k in student loans, 11k car loan, 3k in credit card debt, 3k in miscellaneous debt. It was daunting, I was only a 22 year old, and I already had more than 30k in debt. But one thing was clear to me, I didn't came to this world to suffer from slavery. Debt is the slavery of the new age, it decomposes yours soul, its the root of fear, depression, and sleepless nights for many of us. In 2014 I took a 3k credit card to start my own business, I resold electronic items I purchased online through online stores or at traders villages, anyways to cut it short I have paid off 3 student loans, my car loan, credit card debt, and all miscellaneous debt, I only owe now 9k in my student loans which will be paid off in October by selling my car. There is hope people, think outside of the box, go out there, the money is everywhere, you just have to be creative. God didn't bring you to this world to live a miserable existence, just the essence of life itself its pure on its own syntax. So to whoever reads this, go out there, make a plan, execute it. Don't quit on life. If your loans are exuberant and you see no end, leave the country, but if you want to stay and deal with the problems you face, fight, even if you have to bend the rules, fight. You and your family deserve a good life. Remember, impossible is nothing.
Hector June 30, 2015 Texas
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.ZHItOBbI.dpuf
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Fortunately I had a very well developed, deep distrust of "grown-ups" that had been formed and nurtured by parents and every teacher I ever had. I totally sh1tcanned that false yabba-jabba idea of College-as-Messiah. I asked questions. "How much? Best field of study? What's the payoff?" "Why the hell am i doing this, exactly?" Assholes (adolts) had no answers. Like a TV pitchman or someone on a hallucinogenic drug, just kept spouting the same "ya gotta go to college"... BECAUSE! mantra. Is it gonna cost me (a poor person with poor parents) money? Then why would I burden myself with it? I eventually got several degrees for almost no cost to me and none were for money. All fields of avocation. I was already getting paid. I was just "punching my ticket" and filling a square.
There are other ways to earn a living, make money, get a degree or other job training than force feeding yourself into college 3 months after high school.
What did you do for a living before the college degrees? Just curious?
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Fortunately I had a very well developed, deep distrust of "grown-ups" that had been formed and nurtured by parents and every teacher I ever had. I totally sh1tcanned that false yabba-jabba idea of College-as-Messiah. I asked questions. "How much? Best field of study? What's the payoff?" "Why the hell am i doing this, exactly?" Assholes (adolts) had no answers. Like a TV pitchman or someone on a hallucinogenic drug, just kept spouting the same "ya gotta go to college"... BECAUSE! mantra. Is it gonna cost me (a poor person with poor parents) money? Then why would I burden myself with it? I eventually got several degrees for almost no cost to me and none were for money. All fields of avocation. I was already getting paid. I was just "punching my ticket" and filling a square.
There are other ways to earn a living, make money, get a degree or other job training than force feeding yourself into college 3 months after high school.
What did you do for a living before the college degrees? Just curious?
I joined the Air Force right out of high school
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Fortunately I had a very well developed, deep distrust of "grown-ups" that had been formed and nurtured by parents and every teacher I ever had. I totally sh1tcanned that false yabba-jabba idea of College-as-Messiah. I asked questions. "How much? Best field of study? What's the payoff?" "Why the hell am i doing this, exactly?" Assholes (adolts) had no answers. Like a TV pitchman or someone on a hallucinogenic drug, just kept spouting the same "ya gotta go to college"... BECAUSE! mantra. Is it gonna cost me (a poor person with poor parents) money? Then why would I burden myself with it? I eventually got several degrees for almost no cost to me and none were for money. All fields of avocation. I was already getting paid. I was just "punching my ticket" and filling a square.
There are other ways to earn a living, make money, get a degree or other job training than force feeding yourself into college 3 months after high school.
What did you do for a living before the college degrees? Just curious?
I joined the Air Force right out of high school
I went to the Navy soon after high school. It was a great start. Decided I didn't want a career there but a great start all the same. am hoping my kids give it some serious consideration although we could afford for them to go straight to college. I think the military enlistment experience is very, very worthwhile.
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This genius thought for some reason his school loan was supposed to be a INTEREST FREE LOAN!! LOL!
I thought some student loans don't accrue interest until after you graduate. Is that not the case anymore?
Perhaps he took out a loan that claimed not to accrue interest until after graduation and thought that meant it was interest free forever.
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This genius thought for some reason his school loan was supposed to be a INTEREST FREE LOAN!! LOL!
I thought some student loans don't accrue interest until after you graduate. Is that not the case anymore?
Perhaps he took out a loan that claimed not to accrue interest until after graduation and thought that meant it was interest free forever.
Non subsidized Staffords and private loans accrue interest from the day they are taken out
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This genius thought for some reason his school loan was supposed to be a INTEREST FREE LOAN!! LOL!
I thought some student loans don't accrue interest until after you graduate. Is that not the case anymore?
Perhaps he took out a loan that claimed not to accrue interest until after graduation and thought that meant it was interest free forever.
Non subsidized Staffords and private loans accrue interest from the day they are taken out
So do the subsidized loans that I was describing still exist? Or has this been phased out?
I knew there were some loans that accrue from the moment you get them. I'm asking if the ones that don't accrue until after graduation still exist.
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This genius thought for some reason his school loan was supposed to be a INTEREST FREE LOAN!! LOL!
I thought some student loans don't accrue interest until after you graduate. Is that not the case anymore?
Perhaps he took out a loan that claimed not to accrue interest until after graduation and thought that meant it was interest free forever.
Non subsidized Staffords and private loans accrue interest from the day they are taken out
So do the subsidized loans that I was describing still exist? Or has this been phased out?
I knew there were some loans that accrue from the moment you get them. I'm asking if the ones that don't accrue until after graduation still exist.
Subsidized federal student loans are still available, as are the unsubsidized version. Both of them accrue interest from the beginning. The difference is that for subsidized loans, the government pays the interest until the grace period after graduation ends, but for unsubsidized loans, the borrower is responsible for all of the interest from the beginning. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized#subsidized-vs-unsubsidized
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lol - those stories are pretty funny.
Almost everyone has some stupid justifiable reason they couldn't finish school.
I wonder how many graphic designers there is? And how many graphic design jobs actually exist?
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lol - those stories are pretty funny.
Almost everyone has some stupid justifiable reason they couldn't finish school.
I wonder how many graphic designers there is? And how many graphic design jobs actually exist?
At my alma mater, "digital media" was the major that people went to when they failed out of computer science but still wanted to work in technology.
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I wonder how many graphic designers there is? And how many graphic design jobs actually exist?
I think "graphic designer" is the intersection of "I want to be an artist" and "I want to eat"
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I'm Canadian, and spent my late teens and 20s wondering why people with student loans partied, and how they could consistently claim not to know how their loans worked. I went back to school at 30.
-a school coordinator advised me that the form she wanted me to sign was only so that the school could get funding to cover accommodations for my disability. I read it, it was a loan application, I didn't sign.
- I did choose to get loans for my last year, any time I went to my school's financial aid office, they had loan documents they asked me to sign. The document never matched what they said I was signing. They were always rude when I read the documents and asked questions.
If I was 17 with no financial literacy, I could easily imagine being tricked. But, I also think that the students who are misled about student loans should take a few months to whine with friends about it. They then need to decide if they want to be responsible and repay the loans and be frugal, or to launch a lawsuit against the financial aid people who misled and bullied them. But both are active, empowered choices.
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I did choose to get loans for my last year, any time I went to my school's financial aid office, they had loan documents they asked me to sign. The document never matched what they said I was signing. They were always rude when I read the documents and asked questions.
Anytime someone acts rude, angry, or impatient because you want to read the legal document you're about to sign, you should probably just leave. Whenever someone starts acting irritated that I'm reading a document, the document always says something different from what they told me I was signing. It's usually very different. I've even seen the item I was purchasing and the price be completely different in a document. They told me not to worry about it because it was a mistake and they'll change it after I sign it. I said, "You can't do that. If it worked that way, what's to stop you from just changing it around as much as you want after I sign it?" Then they got mad that I didn't trust them.
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I did choose to get loans for my last year, any time I went to my school's financial aid office, they had loan documents they asked me to sign. The document never matched what they said I was signing. They were always rude when I read the documents and asked questions.
Anytime someone acts rude, angry, or impatient because you want to read the legal document you're about to sign, you should probably just leave. Whenever someone starts acting irritated that I'm reading a document, the document always says something different from what they told me I was signing. It's usually very different. I've even seen the item I was purchasing and the price be completely different in a document. They told me not to worry about it because it was a mistake and they'll change it after I sign it. I said, "You can't do that. If it worked that way, what's to stop you from just changing it around as much as you want after I sign it?" Then they got mad that I didn't trust them.
The irritation, rudeness, pushiness, or condescending attitude is a huge red flag. Every time you see it, abort the transaction because the other person is trying to rip you off. It doesn't matter if it's a job offer or a lease: anyone who won't let you read what you're signing and help you understand each paragraph is up to something.
If you continue with the transaction, you're consenting to voluntarily do business with someone you caught trying to rip you off. There's only one possible outcome to that decision. The leopard won't change its spots, your decision to go forward with the deal will be interpreted by the predator as informed consent, you will spend a lot of time and effort catching subsequent ripoff attempts because you've accepted responsibility for controlling whether the ripoff artist rips you off, and eventually one will succeed because your attention is divided.
Overall, I prefer to abort the transaction and also the business relationship. It's easier to replace the person or company you catch trying to burn you *before* you've signed something, compared to *after*.
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In general, that's what I do. In this case, I was conducting my business with the Canadian government, and being provided forms by a college employee. So I ignored his rudeness, read my paperwork, and made an informed decision.
My point was that I feel sorry for 17 year olds who trust employees of Canada's public post secondary institutions.
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So telling them that they are a special little rainbow and if they borrowed $100k to do a worthless degree then the world owes them a living isn't helping.
hint if your degree has "studies" or "history of" in the title it is probably useless.
I concur.
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Based on the grammar, spelling and syntax in most of these stories it's obvious they weren't English majors.
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LOL!!!! : )
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Welll, I took a look at the original link out of curiosity. Maybe it's just me being a clueless European, but I do feel sorry for these people - and I don't understand why most posters here are pretty much hating on them. Some of the questions in my head after reading some of the stories:
- why does your government allow these loans to be sold ever onwards, and for huge collection fees to be attached? Why are there no consumer protection laws in place that prevent this? A lot of people got in trouble not through the original loan, but due to the fact it was sold on / huge collection fees were attached. Believe me, this does NOT have to be the case. This can be changed. I am not implying the US government should be paying for everything, but I am implying that it is possible to put some limits in place to what these loan companies can do.
- how come they can garnish such stupid amounts? Even from a Social Security Check? This could also be prevented by implementing better consumer protection legislation, imho.
- what's with Pell grants (i.e. government money) being available for ridiculously overpriced private colleges with poor track records, which basically exist to lure in unsuspecting students with no college background in their families - and which try to get the student to sign up for student loans besides the grants? How the hell is that even legal?
Etc. etc. etc. Like I said, the US government could imho do a lot more to make the system fairer and to prevent financially clueless youngsters from signing up to things they will later regret. And that's without increasing taxes or paying a dime more to educate these people. So why isn't this happening?
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Maybe it's just me being a clueless European, ...
- why does your government allow ...
Imagine the US government as the French monarchy around 1790 and you get the governments general attitude toward the people.
And remember that the government doing good things for the people is socialism, socialism is bad, so the government doing the opposite must be good.
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Bro, did you ever fix that problem with your caps lock?
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Welll, I took a look at the original link out of curiosity. Maybe it's just me being a clueless European, but I do feel sorry for these people - and I don't understand why most posters here are pretty much hating on them. Some of the questions in my head after reading some of the stories:
- why does your government allow these loans to be sold ever onwards, and for huge collection fees to be attached?
Etc. etc. etc. Like I said, the US government could imho do a lot more to make the system fairer and to prevent financially clueless youngsters from signing up to things they will later regret. And that's without increasing taxes or paying a dime more to educate these people. So why isn't this happening?
The problem here mostly IS the government. They set the rates and conditions of the loans. They could change them. The problem was that in the past student loans were a huge loss to the government, or to whichever bank actually did the lending, and so the rules were tightened. Fine, people should pay back what they borrow.
But, kids, many of whom are of only average intelligence, are being strongly encouraged to go to university, even if they really are not up to it. Many kids think they MUST get a degree, and the only way they know to do it is to borrow, or, they just go with the flow and take the 'easy' route, putting off the pain until later.
The US is extremely generous with college, higher percentages of kids go than in almost any other country. This automatically means that the average intelligence of US college students is lower than in most other countries, since we set the bar so much lower. These kids are young, pretty dumb, and are told they will be set for life.
It is a screwed-up system, no doubt, but don't expect the US government to do anything about it. Not anything rational anyway.
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Imagine the US government as the French monarchy around 1790 and you get the governments general attitude toward the people.
(Emphasis added.)
In the United States, "the ... government" and "the people" are in fact one and the same (at least to the extent that "the people" is defined to include only US citizens). See, e.g., United States v. Automobile Workers, 352 US 567 (https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7794641903275715565), 593 (Douglas, J, dissenting) ("Under our Constitution it is We The People who are sovereign. The people have the final say."), cited with approval in Buckley v. Valeo, 424 US 1 (https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=11397892430187334248), 43 (1976) and in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, 558 US 310, 130 S Ct 876 (https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6233137937069871624), 904 (2010).
By contrast, in Canada, ultimate legal sovereignty is actually vested in a literal monarch, namely the Queen. See Constitution Act, 1867, 30 & 31 Vict, c 3 (https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/stat/30---31-vict-c-3/latest/30---31-vict-c-3.html), §§ 9 (executive power to be vested in the Queen), 17, 55-57 (Queen to have veto over all legislative power), and 96 (federal judges to be appointed by Queen's delegate). See also Chainnigh v. Canada (Attorney General), 2008 FC 69 (https://www.canlii.org/canlii-dynamic/en/ca/fct/doc/2008/2008fc69/2008fc69.html) at ¶ 49 (noting that "our present ties to the ... monarchy are constitutionally entrenched"); accord McAteer v. Canada (Attorney General), 2013 ONSC 5895 (https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2013/2013onsc5895/2013onsc5895.html) at ¶¶ 42, 44 ("The Applicants argue that the Queen stands for social hierarchy and elitism, and that there is no rational basis for her presence in a statement of allegiance to the nation. ... The Applicants may not be in favour of the continuing historic arrangement, but ... one cannot ignore the fact that the monarch is Canada's constitutional head of state."), aff'd 2014 ONCA 578 (https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc/2014/2014onca578/2014onca578.html), leave denied 2015 CanLII 8563 (https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc-l/doc/2015/2015canlii8563/2015canlii8563.html) (SCC).
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Welll, I took a look at the original link out of curiosity. Maybe it's just me being a clueless European, but I do feel sorry for these people - and I don't understand why most posters here are pretty much hating on them. Some of the questions in my head after reading some of the stories:
- why does your government allow these loans to be sold ever onwards, and for huge collection fees to be attached? Why are there no consumer protection laws in place that prevent this? A lot of people got in trouble not through the original loan, but due to the fact it was sold on / huge collection fees were attached. Believe me, this does NOT have to be the case. This can be changed. I am not implying the US government should be paying for everything, but I am implying that it is possible to put some limits in place to what these loan companies can do.
- how come they can garnish such stupid amounts? Even from a Social Security Check? This could also be prevented by implementing better consumer protection legislation, imho.
- what's with Pell grants (i.e. government money) being available for ridiculously overpriced private colleges with poor track records, which basically exist to lure in unsuspecting students with no college background in their families - and which try to get the student to sign up for student loans besides the grants? How the hell is that even legal?
Etc. etc. etc. Like I said, the US government could imho do a lot more to make the system fairer and to prevent financially clueless youngsters from signing up to things they will later regret. And that's without increasing taxes or paying a dime more to educate these people. So why isn't this happening?
This is Amurica! Land of the Free! Free to lie to you, limit your alternatives, cheat you, and wave the flag in your eyes to distract you. We talk about how great we are (American Exceptionalism) all while purposefully avoiding discussion of our darker historical times i.e. life as a female or minority or alt-lifestyle. Heaven forbid you are a member of more than any one of these categories at once.
Heck the American political leadership themselves spend their careers telling you one thing while doing another. Even a percentage of the clergy/preachers/pastors/etc professes to be followers of Jesus while refusing to accept everyone's "imperfections" and differences. A few of these are starting to see the light I think.
All that said - we'd have a great country if we could off-load these people to another planet. Maybe Mars? ;)
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Heck the American political leadership themselves spend their careers telling you one thing while doing another. Even a percentage of the clergy/preachers/pastors/etc professes to be followers of Jesus while refusing to accept everyone's "imperfections" and differences. A few of these are starting to see the light I think.
All that said - we'd have a great country if we could off-load these people to another planet. Maybe Mars? ;)
It's our Puritan heritage. The original Puritans weren't satisfied with simply living the kind of spiritual life that suited them: they felt entitled to try to impose their beliefs on others by using politics, social pressure, and anything else they could think of. Overall they were an obnoxious lot, and they made themselves so odious in England that eventually they weren't welcome. That, and their desire to create a religious autarchy by carving it out of some other land, eventually inspired many of them to move to Holland.
In the 17th and 18th century, the Netherlands had the most liberal immigration policy and the most religious freedom of any country in Europe. Basically, if you had a trade skill of some kind and were not a criminal or wanted for a crime in another country, the door was open to you and you could immigrate, bring your family, and set up shop. This provided a skilled labor pool. Factor in access to year-round seaports, independent municipal governments that were not necessarily part of the feudal system, and a functional commercial fleet that dated back to the Hanseatic League, and the Netherlands turned into an economic powerhouse almost overnight without having to rely excessively on overseas colonies (although they had a few). The booming economy and the demand for skilled labor wasn't the only thing the Netherlands had going for it: there was no established religious sect, and people were allowed complete freedom of religious practice provided they did not interfere with anybody else. It was the kind of laissez-faire, live-and-let-live society that libertarians fantasize about because although the society definitely had problems, the "I got mine, so fuck you" mentality hadn't set in yet.
Then came the Puritans. These folks didn't actually invent "I got mine, so fuck you", but they practiced it more intensively than any other tribe of people before or since.
The Puritan immigrants to the Netherlands definitely wanted to take advantage of the religious freedom there, but they had a problem with the fact that everyone else around them was just as free as they were. These other free people were making religious and lifestyle choices that differed from the ones the Puritans wanted them to make. The Puritans also asserted that spreading their belief and proselytizing or even trying to force or manipulate other people into following their religious dictates was a critical aspect of their faith. Unless they were given an entitlement to harass, lecture, and even legislate against other people whose habits of worship, dress, eating, or living didn't mesh with theirs, they truly believed they weren't practicing their religion. Indeed, the fact that other people didn't treat them with the reverence they believed they deserved by listening obediently or catering to their sensibilities was, in the Puritan mentality, a grave oppression roughly on par with being imprisoned or beaten up for their faith. Since many of the Puritans got off on the idea of being martyrs for their religion, the predictable reaction to their obnoxious behavior could have created an exceptional alignment of interests, had they only been willing to save their belligerence for people who actually wanted a confrontation.
Hypocrisy and rationalization were central to the Puritan practice, but they never recognized it as such, because they believed in the somewhat antinomian notion that, although they struggled for control over the law (and, by extension, other people), they were personally exempt from human law due to their moral superiority, if that human law happened to differ from whatever they wanted to do at the time.
Central to the Puritan mentality was the belief that Puritans were superior beings because they alone, of all the humans on the planet, possessed not just rectitude but a special capability for strong emotions regarding religion. These religious feelings, apparently, were more important than any other kind of feelings, and more important than any other person's cultural, social, or other sensitivities. Until they had the kind of political and economic control that allowed them to either exclude or punish people who weren't sufficiently considerate of their special feelings, they just weren't satisfied. They also weren't shy about showing just how much contempt they had for the country and people that had welcomed them. They never did integrate with Dutch society: they refused to get down with the live-and-let-live mentality, and their arrogance was such that they generally didn't even bother to learn the language. Inevitably, they made themselves just as unwelcome in the Netherlands as they'd done in England. So off they went to the "new" territories in the Americas to set up their own colonies based on the rules of the corporations they set up. The role of religion, and churches, was radically different from what had historically existed in Europe, since Puritan style churches emphasized worship and little or nothing else. The resulting lack of emphasis on public education, health care, elder care, and other services historically provided by religious institutions is a feature of American society to this day.
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I wonder where all the welfare apologists are all of a sudden. When a single, teenage mom pops out kids she can't take care of, she is a victim of circumstance and it's OK to redistribute from other peoples tax dollars to pay for her housing, food, kids health, her health, you name it, giving her more money for each kid she pops out with some random guy.
But when other people go into debt to better their job prospects and , all of a sudden it's their fault, they don't deserve help, they are scoundrels to be laughed at, you made your bed, etc.
I think it's one thing if you spent 100K on 9 month certificate program for upholstery repair. Sadly, I've seen some people who go to mainstream schools for mainstream programs and still work as Bank Tellers, etc. well into their 30's and 40's. I made it before I graduated from college, or before I even went. In fact I've surpassed people that have had a thousand advantages over me (rich family, college fund, lived with parents, etc.). Amazing how conservative personal accountability works...
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I find it distasteful to shit on people who tried to better their lives, but didn't make it.
It's the American way! If you get successful you got lucky. If you did not, it's your fault. Whatever you did you obviously should have done something else. Now, I I get successful, It was because of hard work, I made my own luck. If I don't get what I thought I think I should have or, especially, if I actually fail it's poor people's fault! Or the government's. (And I'll ask why there isn't a program for people like me) Taxes. etc etc.
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LOL!!!
Here is another idiot cry baby! Great idea having your wife SHIT OUT 3 KIDS!!! [MOD NOTE: No. Forum Rule #1.]
My story is the absolute worst-case scenario. I have never met anyone in such a terrible circumstance, and have never heard anyone propose a solution or a plan of action to ease this burden or provide some semblance of a better quality of life. I am 26 years old and my AS degree is valueless - it would be impossible for me to make monthly payments with an entry-level salary in my field. After a few years of uncertainty and indecision, I racked up debt just shy of $150,000. Before it is paid, with interest, it is unlikely that I will pay one penny less than $200,000. Every day that passes I get further from my promised career path, stuck doing what must be done to make payments rather than what is fulfilling, interesting, or good for our country. With all but a few thousand owed to private lenders, there is almost no relief for me. I am subject to multiple variable interest rates even among loans with the same company. The rules and deadlines for payments, the penalties and collections practices, all of them vary from one company to the other. I've gone back to school to defer my loans because the community college tuition is less than what I would pay over the same period of time. I have 3 children who may never know what it's like to live in their own home, because I have to pay close to $1500 every month just to my lenders. I will never own a home, my credit may never recover. There is no American Dream on the table for me. The best I can do is tread water and hope for the best.
My generation deserved better than to be the cash crop for a predatory, profit-driven business model. My children deserve better.
Andrew G November 23, 2015 Philadelphia
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.tegXSmSy.dpuf
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I wonder where all the welfare apologists are all of a sudden. When a single, teenage mom pops out kids she can't take care of, she is a victim of circumstance and it's OK to redistribute from other peoples tax dollars to pay for her housing, food, kids health, her health, you name it, giving her more money for each kid she pops out with some random guy.
But when other people go into debt to better their job prospects and , all of a sudden it's their fault, they don't deserve help, they are scoundrels to be laughed at, you made your bed, etc.
I don't know about "welfare apologist", but I think everyone should be given reasonable shelter and food, no matter how stupid they've been. If they're anti-social enough, we put them in prison and rehabilitate them. Otherwise, we have social workers to get them back on their feet. And we especially take care of the kids, because it's not their fault their parents screwed up, and if you don't at least educate, feed and shelter them, they just become a bigger burden later.
For education, it's too damned expensive in your country, so I have no problem bailing people out of debt they never should have been forced or tricked into accumulating.
Toque.
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I have no problem bailing people out of debt they never should have been forced or tricked into accumulating.
Ignorance is no excuse. And no one forces anyone to take out a loan.
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Ignorance is no excuse. And no one forces anyone to take out a loan.
Certainly ignorance is an excuse. Full and complete knowledge by both parties, to include exactly how the business entity is going to proceed to defraud you, is necessary or no free market transaction can take place.
The second part is more complex but if the entire economy is constructed to include the taking of loans for things, which it is, then, yes, there is a certain built-in level of coercion to taking loans in many, most, or nearly all cases because those are the rules of the game. But, no, they don't do a Don Corleone and force you to sign with a gun to your head.
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Count me in the club of folks who think public education should be affordable, and that predatory loans (which, in my opinion, a great many student loans are) should be abolished.
Yes, I feel sorry for these people, and a great many more. We're very fortunate not to be in their shoes.
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Count me in the club of folks who think public education should be affordable, and that predatory loans (which, in my opinion, a great many student loans are) should be abolished.
Yes, I feel sorry for these people, and a great many more. We're very fortunate not to be in their shoes.
+1 to this
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I have no problem bailing people out of debt they never should have been forced or tricked into accumulating.
Ignorance is no excuse. And no one forces anyone to take out a loan.
Of course it is.
Do you blame someone who grew up without school for not being able to read?
That's just a basic example.
The point of education is to learn, no?
Financial education is the same.
I can sit here in my office, on my computer - knowing that it all worked out for me. I was smart. I got scholarships. I chose a decent major. I opted for an ROTC scholarship.
But I also signed loan papers for 4 years to pay for room and board, and I had NO IDEA what I was doing. Neither did my mom, the bank teller, because nobody in my family had ever gone to college. 8%, 10% rates? Sure why not, that's normal right?
Nobody taught me that. I got lucky.
I am, of course, going to teach my kids that. But there's this whole generation of college students there (plus a tailing group too) who are hearing that "get an education" is their #1 priority, but they come from families who have never had to navigate the student loan thing, and don't get how it works.
Even today, in my lower-middle class school district, there is this HUGE focus on college. Every classroom has a different university on the door. "I'm going to college" on the t-shirts. Because "education is the key to success". 65% of these kids are on free lunch, if you AREN'T giving these kids the financial tools to figure out how to go without significant debt, you are fucking ruining their lives. But 50% of the parents don't speak English and 34% of the parents never graduated high school. Ignorance is OF COURSE an excuse. If your parents don't it and the school doesn't teach it??
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Ignorance leading people to make expensive choices that might not benefit their children well long term feeding a huge academic cash cow where top level administrators are making a six digit incomes writing "Mission Statements", delegating minor tasks and buying new logos??? ;)
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I believe that the problem isn't fixing college affordability. The problem is that college is frequently where education starts and where students are no longer merely promoted on to the next grade. Grade inflation is a real and growing problem in the U.S. It used to be that a High School diploma would mean something. But that day is long gone, but now we want a college degree to mean something. With so many people moving on to college (and it is clear from the stories lacking some pretty basic knowledge), the BS or BA has become ubiquitous and given to so many underprepared/undereducated that it's starting to lose its luster. Now we look for graduate degrees.
I would be happy not fixing how college is funded and instead reverting H.S. back to something that was meaningful.
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Ignorance is OF COURSE an excuse.
LOL!!!!
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There are Hotel School Grads and then there are hotel school grads. I suspect a Cornell hospitality/hotel degree may be worth taking out some loans. An associates' degree from your friendly neighborhood community college, maybe not so much. (And, perversely, the amount of debt per year for a student from a typical working class family is likely going to be less at Cornell--assuming s/he is accepted.)
I benefited incredibly from Cornell's aid program. I believe all ivies are need-based (no merit), which was incredibly lucky for 17 year old me who paid ~10% of tuition.
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What I dislike about this forum here is the harsh judgmental attitude I see, perhaps it’s a take on Mustache’s hair on fire attitude. I don’t know, but I think it seems from people confusing personal responsibility with good public policy. You don’t have to dig deep to see there is a huge problem with student debt, the articles posted here about people fleeing the country to escape touch only scratch the surface. Here’s the part that I don’t get the US government is the biggest holder of student debt* and they are the most onerous demanding task master! There is no forgiveness no mercy no second chances. The government goes to great lengths to protect their profits. To me it’s a no brainer to say, yes you were stupid and went to a 2nd tier law school and got some useless degree and are now stuck at Wally mart for the rest of your life so going to make you a deal, we’ll lower interest rate to prime and fix it to your income, after 25 years whatever is leftover is forgiven tax free. We’ll keep the payment low enough so you can get a head start on life but not too low so you have no incentive not to pay them off or to get ahead.
* I can’t find the article where it talked about this, if I do I’ll post it
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Alternately you could fund the state universities from the state. Have some control on what courses they offer, eg. we need engineers, medics, scientists but not so many PR, golf course management or sociology degrees.
Then the state could get back the money by the extra taxes these people paid and the successful businesses they created.
But it's probably more efficient to write off massive debts to people who spent $200k on law school to become actors. That's why I'm a physicist not an economist.
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Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
+1
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Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
But it's not like they weren't given lots of information about the poor ROI of most further education, classes on analysis of future job markets and an even-handed consideration of the benefits of college during their high-school years.
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This forum is about people who choose to better their lives partly through recognizing how lucky they already have it, and by working hard early in life so they can buy their own freedom from labor.
Sure, I enjoy a wry chuckle at the misadventures of some of the misguided in this particular portion of the forum, but that never includes people who just had a shitty hand of cards dealt to them. I admire people all the more who take that shitty hand of cards and make good on it, but I am not going to expect that as a requirement for me to allow them a little dignity.
By mocking those in pain you only make yourself look weak.
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You don’t have to dig deep to see there is a huge problem with student debt.
Exactly. You have to wonder then with this story being so widely reported in the media why then there are still so many people signing up for these loans still and agreeing to the terms being given on them? As always but even more so now ignorance is no excuse.
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Perhaps the 18/20-somethings of 2016 don't watch the news?
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Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
But it's not like they weren't given lots of information about the poor ROI of most further education, classes on analysis of future job markets and an even-handed consideration of the benefits of college during their high-school years.
This is a very good point (I hope this was tongue in cheek?)
Even in our elementary school, with a lot of poor kids (70%), they are already pushing college. But you know that at the high school level, there isn't a single class on how to navigate paying for it, what it is worth to study, or if you should even go.
34% of the kids parents didn't graduate high school. I don't see this ending well for many of them. It's pretty ridiculous.
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Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
But it's not like they weren't given lots of information about the poor ROI of most further education, classes on analysis of future job markets and an even-handed consideration of the benefits of college during their high-school years.
This is a very good point (I hope this was tongue in cheek?)
Even in our elementary school, with a lot of poor kids (70%), they are already pushing college. But you know that at the high school level, there isn't a single class on how to navigate paying for it, what it is worth to study, or if you should even go.
34% of the kids parents didn't graduate high school. I don't see this ending well for many of them. It's pretty ridiculous.
I hope that was sarcasm. I finished high school in 2000. We got a LOT of pushing to go to college. Education debt was "good debt". No formal discussion on an appropriate amount of debt, and a pervasive attitude that if you got into an out-of-state school, it was going to be "better" than the local state university (which is laughable as our school was <1 hour drive from TWO highly ranked state schools--either of them would have been a better choice than the private school I initially chose). My parents were immigrants so had zero experience of the US education system, and honestly, college costs had skyrocketed so much since other people's parents had gone to school that I don't think very many parents had a good idea of how the financial aspect worked.
There was also surprisingly little formal discussion of what careers might pay best or offer the most stable employment opportunities. You really had to seek all of that out on your own, and at 17-18 with school pushing you to just take as many AP courses as possible, get the max SAT scores, write the perfect essay, and then just trust that would get you into a "good" school, I can see why a lot of people (myself included) didn't do all that much research. I know my parents also did very little scrutiny--my dad did push me to consider math/science/engineering but he never explicitly said "you will likely make more money and have a better shot at finding a job". I'd also never really had to figure out a budget or buy things for myself. About the only thing I had going in my favor is that I did have a strong sense that putting money into savings was important. I started off majoring in international relations and assumed I would get some glamorous job at the state department. I was at a $30k/yr private school and had a scholarship that covered half the cost, so I thought I was all set. Luckily for me I had actually placed out of a lot of the intro courses (all those AP's pay off!) and so had several classes with a lot of seniors/juniors. After overhearing a lot of conversations about how their best job prospects seemed to pay only $25k/yr (in Washington DC, not exactly a cheap town), I started doing some VERY rough budgeting in my head. I concluded that if I came out of college with more than $15k in debt, I was screwed. I also looked a little more closely at the loan programs and realized that each year I would be "eligible" for more and more loans. My father was incredibly vague about how much money he was willing to kick in, but it was increasingly looking like if a loan was available, I would be expected to take it. At the same time, I wasn't really liking my international relations classes that much. I freaked out, transferred back to the state school after my freshman year, and switched to a science major. Thanks to my stupid first year decision, I did wind up with a little under $15k in debt, I shudder to think what I might have wound up with if I'd stayed at the private school. I paid my debt off in 4 years and it is REALLY nice not to have that looming over me.
All that said, I do NOT feel bad for people who rack up tons of debt going to grad school. At that point, you've presumably had at least 3 years out of your parents house and have either taken on debt yourself or seen your peers take on a load of debt. You should have gotten a better idea of how some degrees/fields pay better than others. I remember when I was finishing undergrad I ran into so many people who were going to grad school largely to defer paying their undergraduate loans, ignoring the part where they were going to take on MORE loans for grad school. That is dumb and if someone took on additional loans for that reason...sorry, hope you enjoyed that extra few years of putting things off.
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Got another one... here's somebody who never asked: "all right, what's this going to cost me really?" and who, despite a Very Speshul Private Skool Edumacation, never seemed quite capable of doing research or performing basic addition.
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2016/01/student_loan_crisis_at_its_ugliest_i_graduated_and_found_out_i_owe_200_000.html
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There was also surprisingly little formal discussion of what careers might pay best or offer the most stable employment opportunities. You really had to seek all of that out on your own, and at 17-18 with school pushing you to just take as many AP courses as possible, get the max SAT scores, write the perfect essay, and then just trust that would get you into a "good" school, I can see why a lot of people (myself included) didn't do all that much research. I know my parents also did very little scrutiny--my dad did push me to consider math/science/engineering but he never explicitly said "you will likely make more money and have a better shot at finding a job". I'd also never really had to figure out a budget or buy things for myself. About the only thing I had going in my favor is that I did have a strong sense that putting money into savings was important. I started off majoring in international relations and assumed I would get some glamorous job at the state department. I was at a $30k/yr private school and had a scholarship that covered half the cost, so I thought I was all set. Luckily for me I had actually placed out of a lot of the intro courses (all those AP's pay off!) and so had several classes with a lot of seniors/juniors. After overhearing a lot of conversations about how their best job prospects seemed to pay only $25k/yr (in Washington DC, not exactly a cheap town), I started doing some VERY rough budgeting in my head. I concluded that if I came out of college with more than $15k in debt, I was screwed. I also looked a little more closely at the loan programs and realized that each year I would be "eligible" for more and more loans. My father was incredibly vague about how much money he was willing to kick in, but it was increasingly looking like if a loan was available, I would be expected to take it. At the same time, I wasn't really liking my international relations classes that much. I freaked out, transferred back to the state school after my freshman year, and switched to a science major. Thanks to my stupid first year decision, I did wind up with a little under $15k in debt, I shudder to think what I might have wound up with if I'd stayed at the private school. I paid my debt off in 4 years and it is REALLY nice not to have that looming over me.
This was a very interesting read.
When I first got out of the Navy, I went into manufacturing. I had to interview another potential engineer. I asked her "what made you major in chemical engineering".
The answer? A bet.
She fell into engineering by LUCK. When she turned 18, she was still a senior in HS, and her mother kicked her out. She ended up living with an older sister to finish HS. She got a full time job as a cashier at a grocery store. She started taking classes (part time) at the community college, in art history.
One day, she heard some guys complaining about how hard calculus was. She said, confidently "it's not that hard". So they bet her that she couldn't get an A in calc. She took it, got an A, and asked herself "what the hell am I doing in art history?" Changed her major to chemistry, eventually engineering, and transferred to the state uni. Her coworkers at the grocery store told her "you'll be back". She worked there until she graduated.
Here's a girl/woman whose parents did not go to college, and knew nothing of choosing a major and navigating loans, schools, etc.
I see this as pretty common.
In my parent's day, a college degree, any degree, was your "ticket", so to speak. Because not many people went. It's not true anymore.
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The above resonates with me. I fell into engineering because I wanted to go to a school smaller than my 800 person per grade high school that wasn't filled with idiot liberal arts majors which I couldn't stand. Those were my only two considerations. I ended up in a small private engineering school. I was doing awful senior year in high school (skipping most of my classes and almost didn't graduate) because I didn't care. But I knew my 99% in chemistry would make me a shoe in to get accepted at an engineering school as a woman. I switched out of chemistry the first week of school. I did not even know what engineers did until my 3rd or 4th year.
So yeah, you really believe that 16/17year olds are going to research the cost of college, return cost on their major, unemployment in their field, interest they will pay on loans all on their own accord? Hell no. Nah... We mostly picked at random because everyone told you college was the next step. Have you ever seen the amount of marketing materials juniors in high school get? I think I got at least a full bank file box filled to the brim.
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My daughter is in 8th grade and is already feeling the college pressure, mostly because she is very bright and is in the classes that are "expected" to go to college and "expected" to go to the best college they can get into regardless of cost. But she has no idea what she wants to do at this age of course. She likes doing creative, artistic work, but I do stress to her that she needs to be pragmatic when it comes down to what she wants to do. She has a set amount for school that we have put away for her and that is it. It is about enough for 4 years at a state school or 1.5 years at a more expensive private college. If she wants to do a more creative career that will likely pay less, she needs to balance that with how much she wants to pay for school. She basically has a budget, and she will have to make the choice about whether it makes sense to go into debt for a certain degree.
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Perhaps the 18/20-somethings of 2016 don't watch the news?
LOL!!!!! I'm sure they would see something about college debt on their smartphones.
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Here's my problem with these people, I have absolutely 0 sympathy for them.
I went to school over 5 years and racked up a huge amount of debt, right around 100k. I admit it was idiotic and I should have never done it. I had no idea what impact that kind of debt was going to have on my life. I even partied it up along the way and took a sweet cruise one year for spring break on those loan dollars. Frankly, I didn't even know how ignorant I was. I worked my behind off and hustled to every job interview, job fair, networking opportunity I could so I made sure I secured a job before graduation. Then my entire first year after college I held down a part time job while working full time as a secondary school teacher. It meant I missed out on lots, but it kept the bills paid. Then I changed careers for a bit. But ended up taking a position that paid less than I made teaching and because of the retail schedule made finding a second job very difficult. Eventually I found a new position and a couple of weeks into that job I found another part time job on the weekend which I worked up until I was able to secure enough raises to make enough to get ahead. I worked full time and part time on the weekends for years. I even worked at bars so I would sit there and watch my other friends having a wonderful time while I was embarrassed I had to work 2 jobs to keep my loans at bay.
Fast forward to today and I'm making over 100k and aggressively working on debt reduction. I'm 29, but I have seen the rampant feeling of entitlement that runs though people my age and younger. For the life of me I can't figure out why people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. I don't tell my story to get a pat on the back, but I tell it because it's 100% possible to make it. These people just decided to give up and now the rest of us shoulder their burden. It makes me sick.
Disclaimer: I do believe the loan system for higher education is a form of modern indentured servitude. What better way to keep people in the workforce then forcing them to work there. We need some major reforms around lending, but we also need schools to do a better job of teaching young children that college isn't for everyone instead of indoctrinating them with the message that they have to go to college to be successful in life.
TL;DR If you take out loans, find a damn way to pay them back. There's always a way even if you may not like the sacrifice.
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Here's my problem with these people, I have absolutely 0 sympathy for them.
I went to school over 5 years and racked up a huge amount of debt, right around 100k. I admit it was idiotic and I should have never done it. I had no idea what impact that kind of debt was going to have on my life. I even partied it up along the way and took a sweet cruise one year for spring break on those loan dollars. Frankly, I didn't even know how ignorant I was. I worked my behind off and hustled to every job interview, job fair, networking opportunity I could so I made sure I secured a job before graduation. Then my entire first year after college I held down a part time job while working full time as a secondary school teacher. It meant I missed out on lots, but it kept the bills paid. Then I changed careers for a bit. But ended up taking a position that paid less than I made teaching and because of the retail schedule made finding a second job very difficult. Eventually I found a new position and a couple of weeks into that job I found another part time job on the weekend which I worked up until I was able to secure enough raises to make enough to get ahead. I worked full time and part time on the weekends for years. I even worked at bars so I would sit there and watch my other friends having a wonderful time while I was embarrassed I had to work 2 jobs to keep my loans at bay.
Fast forward to today and I'm making over 100k and aggressively working on debt reduction. I'm 29, but I have seen the rampant feeling of entitlement that runs though people my age and younger. For the life of me I can't figure out why people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. I don't tell my story to get a pat on the back, but I tell it because it's 100% possible to make it. These people just decided to give up and now the rest of us shoulder their burden. It makes me sick.
Disclaimer: I do believe the loan system for higher education is a form of modern indentured servitude. What better way to keep people in the workforce then forcing them to work there. We need some major reforms around lending, but we also need schools to do a better job of teaching young children that college isn't for everyone instead of indoctrinating them with the message that they have to go to college to be successful in life.
TL;DR If you take out loans, find a damn way to pay them back. There's always a way even if you may not like the sacrifice.
Great post. I left school with 35k in debt. I worked two jobs sometimes to the tune of 90 per week. I made great money at the time and I learned the importance of hustle. The people who are giving up make me sick as well. They are basically leaving us with the tab.
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Here's my problem with these people, I have absolutely 0 sympathy for them.
TL;DR If you take out loans, find a damn way to pay them back. There's always a way even if you may not like the sacrifice.
Great post. I left school with 35k in debt. I worked two jobs sometimes to the tune of 90 per week. I made great money at the time and I learned the importance of hustle. The people who are giving up make me sick as well. They are basically leaving us with the tab.
I do have some sympathy. Gotta remember that a large portion of these people are simply stupid, college degrees notwithstanding. The lower bar for college is well under 100IQ, and the less valuable degrees attract the less intelligent students. Many of the others are naive, poorly educated, and brought up in a society that does not encourage forward thinking.
My only saving grace was a visceral dislike to owing money, plus parents who supported and guided me. I might have been one of these idiots without that. None of that excuses giving up, or not paying the money back, but I do understand why these people feel cheated. They were promised X, and got the real world instead.
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I disagree.
You do not need great intelligence to learn hustle. And an IQ of 90 can save with the best of us. Will they get ahead and FIRE by 40 probably not. Can they do the right thing and pay their loans back? Yes of course they can. All it takes is discipline and focus.
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I do have some sympathy. Gotta remember that a large portion of these people are simply stupid, college degrees notwithstanding. The lower bar for college is well under 100IQ, and the less valuable degrees attract the less intelligent students. Many of the others are naive, poorly educated, and brought up in a society that does not encourage forward thinking.
My only saving grace was a visceral dislike to owing money, plus parents who supported and guided me. I might have been one of these idiots without that. None of that excuses giving up, or not paying the money back, but I do understand why these people feel cheated. They were promised X, and got the real world instead.
We're all allowed to be stupid. I was extremely stupid for a long time. Eventually you come to a fork in the road where you realize you have to pay for that stupidity. You can either run away from it or stand your ground to grind out the hard work to fix the mess you made. These people chose to run. I can guarantee you they're not over in Europe working 60-80 hours a week to pay off those loans. They're over there working a normal 9-5 or less because they want to "enjoy life" and not just pay back their loans. The loans they signed up for, stupid or not.
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Hard to really blame people who worked hard at school, took all those AP classes in hard math subjects so that they could be the first in their family to go to college and get a good job. Then graduated from the best engineering schools with degrees in chemical engineering, oil field geology or mine engineering.
How silly of them to not have forseen a global oil price drop 6 years earlier when they were choosing high school AP classes.
I managed to graduate with a fancy PhD in nuclear physics - right into the end of the cold war. I should have seen that one coming, even if the CIA didn't.
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Hard to really blame people who worked hard at school, took all those AP classes in hard math subjects so that they could be the first in their family to go to college and get a good job. Then graduated from the best engineering schools with degrees in chemical engineering, oil field geology or mine engineering.
How silly of them to not have forseen a global oil price drop 6 years earlier when they were choosing high school AP classes.
I managed to graduate with a fancy PhD in nuclear physics - right into the end of the cold war. I should have seen that one coming, even if the CIA didn't.
It is when you can make a more than decent living with room to pay your debts in a field that is totally unrelated to your degree. No one says you can't go to that field later in life if it's your passion, but just to give up because you can't find a job instantly isn't an excuse.
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Indeed it is hard to feel sorry for most of these people and stories. College IS expensive, but that doesn't mean you have to graduate with six figure debt with a liberal arts degree. As a side note I don't also like how too many kids are pushed to go to an expensive four year college and there should be more focus on trade skills or getting a cheaper AA at a community college and then transferring.
But, I remember I was in senior year of HS and toured a college away from home. Got home and sat down with my parents. I come from a middle class family and while I was a pretty good student in high school, I was in that no mans land of not landing much in the way of scholarships or grants but with my parents not having a ton extra. My parents explained to me that I could live for free with them and attend college locally and graduate with a smaller burden and they could help more living at home, or I could have the traditional college experience for $50k-$100k in loans. Maybe its part of taking a lot of business & accounting courses in high school, but at 17 I was able to calculate the cost of going to college, the interest rates of loans (at the time 7%+), the fact that unsubsidized loans would grow, that tuition always seems to be going up, and that I'd likely graduate close to six figures of debt if I go away for college. I get that many 17 year old may not know the specifics of all aspects of loans, but you'd think they could realize $100,000 is a lot of money and that amount would need to be repaid at some point.
I ended up attending school locally and worked F/T the first year of college. I burned out a bit after that job and didn't work a whole lot more during college. I didn't make the greatest decisions throughout college in terms of preparing for a career, but the one thing I did was be very frugal. I graduated with a debt in the lowish 5 figures, and I paid that off a year after finding full time work after college.
I've met so many people that are just unwilling to sacrifice anything. And its rarely one bad decision on its own. As other people have said, it can be a chain effect. Maybe its racking up college debt, then taking out a high interest car loan, on top of having kids and buying all the latest and greatest electronics while taking luxurious vacations. When I hear people who make these decisions cry poverty, it falls on my deaf ears. I feel sorry for the people who work hard, sacrifice, are frugal, and still struggle...but not for those who want everything for nothing and feel like they are entitled to a bail out because of poor financial decision making.
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Indeed it is hard to feel sorry for most of these people and stories. College IS expensive, but that doesn't mean you have to graduate with six figure debt with a liberal arts degree. As a side note I don't also like how too many kids are pushed to go to an expensive four year college and there should be more focus on trade skills or getting a cheaper AA at a community college and then transferring.
But, I remember I was in senior year of HS and toured a college away from home. Got home and sat down with my parents. I come from a middle class family and while I was a pretty good student in high school, I was in that no mans land of not landing much in the way of scholarships or grants but with my parents not having a ton extra. My parents explained to me that I could live for free with them and attend college locally and graduate with a smaller burden and they could help more living at home, or I could have the traditional college experience for $50k-$100k in loans. Maybe its part of taking a lot of business & accounting courses in high school, but at 17 I was able to calculate the cost of going to college, the interest rates of loans (at the time 7%+), the fact that unsubsidized loans would grow, that tuition always seems to be going up, and that I'd likely graduate close to six figures of debt if I go away for college. I get that many 17 year old may not know the specifics of all aspects of loans, but you'd think they could realize $100,000 is a lot of money and that amount would need to be repaid at some point.
I ended up attending school locally and worked F/T the first year of college. I burned out a bit after that job and didn't work a whole lot more during college. I didn't make the greatest decisions throughout college in terms of preparing for a career, but the one thing I did was be very frugal. I graduated with a debt in the lowish 5 figures, and I paid that off a year after finding full time work after college.
I've met so many people that are just unwilling to sacrifice anything. And its rarely one bad decision on its own. As other people have said, it can be a chain effect. Maybe its racking up college debt, then taking out a high interest car loan, on top of having kids and buying all the latest and greatest electronics while taking luxurious vacations. When I hear people who make these decisions cry poverty, it falls on my deaf ears. I feel sorry for the people who work hard, sacrifice, are frugal, and still struggle...but not for those who want everything for nothing and feel like they are entitled to a bail out because of poor financial decision making.
+1 I totally agree
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this thread is a great example of what I dis-like about this forum, the Fox news GOP blame the victim mentality that peaks it head out occasionally. Why is it nothing is ever said about the policies that are behind the soaring cost of college and who benefits, just victim blaming. This is what is behind the rise of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders.
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But, I remember I was in senior year of HS and toured a college away from home. Got home and sat down with my parents. I come from a middle class family and while I was a pretty good student in high school, I was in that no mans land of not landing much in the way of scholarships or grants but with my parents not having a ton extra. My parents explained to me that I could live for free with them and attend college locally and graduate with a smaller burden and they could help more living at home, or I could have the traditional college experience for $50k-$100k in loans. Maybe its part of taking a lot of business & accounting courses in high school, but at 17 I was able to calculate the cost of going to college, the interest rates of loans (at the time 7%+), the fact that unsubsidized loans would grow, that tuition always seems to be going up, and that I'd likely graduate close to six figures of debt if I go away for college. I get that many 17 year old may not know the specifics of all aspects of loans, but you'd think they could realize $100,000 is a lot of money and that amount would need to be repaid at some point.
You see, I think it's great that your parents had that discussion with you. Some parents do, and some don't. My husband's parents did - but then, my husband's dad went to college, and had to pay back loans. So he had experience. They basically told him "we cannot afford it unless you take that ROTC scholarship". (Then went on to take out a second mortgage for his sister. But I digress.
My parents were separated and my dad did not believe that girls should go to college. My mother supported my decision to go, but simply said "out of state just cannot happen, you need in state grants". My mother worked at a bank though, so I had that going for me.
My niece and nephew had parents (my sis and BIL) who explained cost of college and how to pay, and as a result, my nephew went to an academy and my niece finished in 3 years. But my BIL went to college, so he was familiar with it.
On the flip side, not everyone was that lucky. I know kids whose parents did not go to college, and regretted it. So they pushed their kids to go because "it's a ticket to a better job". Well, in their generation, that was true. But it's not necessarily true anymore. And as they didn't go, they couldn't give their children guidance on how to choose a school, how to pay for it, and what a reasonably expected starting salary would be for a particular major. My family was in many ways, firmly blue collar and practical. Some families honestly don't know enough to say "well, what are you going to do with an English degree?" (Not that English degrees aren't useful, but you need to think about it - are you going to teach, or write, or ???, and how much do you expect to get paid?)
Note: I didn't take business or accounting in HS.
I ended up attending school locally and worked F/T the first year of college. I burned out a bit after that job and didn't work a whole lot more during college. I didn't make the greatest decisions throughout college in terms of preparing for a career, but the one thing I did was be very frugal. I graduated with a debt in the lowish 5 figures, and I paid that off a year after finding full time work after college.
That's great. I ended up with debt in the low-5 figures too, but it took me 4 years to pay it off, not a year.
I've met so many people that are just unwilling to sacrifice anything. And its rarely one bad decision on its own. As other people have said, it can be a chain effect. Maybe its racking up college debt, then taking out a high interest car loan, on top of having kids and buying all the latest and greatest electronics while taking luxurious vacations. When I hear people who make these decisions cry poverty, it falls on my deaf ears. I feel sorry for the people who work hard, sacrifice, are frugal, and still struggle...but not for those who want everything for nothing and feel like they are entitled to a bail out because of poor financial decision making.
I see these people occasionally too. But you know, it's a fine line. I know a few doctors who went this route...loans, house, kids, etc., but of course, most of them are doing fine. Honestly, some of it is luck - someone majoring in math or accounting - the difference between graduating in a recession vs. not can be a huge difference in earnings over a lifetime. (Say, the difference between graduating in 1991 vs. 1992 or 1993).
What I've seen MORE of is people who truly thought that getting a degree was the only way to a better job, because that's what their parents tell them, and the high schools tell them. But neither of these groups give them the tools to figure out how to pay for it.
It's all fine and good that there are some 17 year olds who are mature enough and lucky enough to make good decisions. But to berate and poke fun at the rest? It seems ridiculously cruel. While we are at it, why don't we make fun at the fat kid whose parents never bought them a vegetable. You know, they are perfectly capable of reading about how to eat better, even if they don't make the decisions in the household.
What I see now at my tech company - hiring people with engineering degrees as technicians, because we can (during the recession). Those awesome starting salaries you read about? We paid our guys $16 an hour, in So Cal, ha ha ha suckers!! They were lucky to find a job. We pay barely above minimum wage to work as our receptionist and to learn our accounts payable. But we *require* a college degree, which doesn't come free. Note: these jobs NEWLY require a degree, they didn't always. Now we get to let kids get into debt, to even keep the status quo jobs.
When there are changes in economies (such as recessions), and changes in the job front (such as outsourcing)... it looks like the feeder path (education) is a little bit slow to respond. So you have people going IN to the feeder path of college, and taking out loans ... but they come out to a changed world, in many respects. My college buddy didn't expect to graduate in a recession, and spend a year + working as a temp in the DC area, because that was literally the only job she could find. I remember when our alma mater called asking for a donation (we were also roommates after college). She gave them the exact date when she would finish paying off her loans, and told them to call back on that date.
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this thread is a great example of what I dis-like about this forum, the Fox news GOP blame the victim mentality that peaks it head out occasionally. Why is it nothing is ever said about the policies that are behind the soaring cost of college and who benefits, just victim blaming. This is what is behind the rise of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders.
I agree, the government should stop pushing up the cost of college by providing a nearly-unlimited pool of money to prospective students that traps them in debt for years afterwards.
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I do feel sorry for today's young people. Yes, college isn't for everybody, but increasingly one finds that a college degree is a prerequisite to having your application considered for jobs that previously were successfully filled by high school graduates. One example is a friend of mine who decided that he would be happier in a minimum-wage job as a salesperson in a bookstore. He had a bachelor's degree in English literature, as well as half a dozen years of customer service experience, including some supervisory experience. When he applied for a job at a bookstore, he has told he didn't have the qualifications necessary for this minimum-wage position - they wanted someone with a master's degree in English literature (or some related field). Sadly, this being Minneapolis, I'm sure they were able to get it. And while this might be an extreme example, I believe the general trend holds true.
I agree with the person who commented that student loans are a form of indentured servitude - overwhelming debt is a great device for keeping people servile and desperate to keep jobs even though the work conditions are crappy.
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There is a lot about the system I don't like or agree with as I mentioned, and I think personal finance courses should be mandatory in high school. Kids should be more educated overall when it comes to money. Changes should be made to help tuition costs from spiraling out of control.
And I don't look down on all people who have a large amount of college debt. There are many situations where it can end up being a good choice. But at the end of the day there has to be some personal responsibility in all of this, and I absolutely do not feel bad for the people who spend six figures going to an out of state school to get an arts degree, then go complain that they shouldn't have to pay back the loans.
I will have to disagree in that I don't see this as blaming the victim. And reading through the stories some of these decisions were made by older adults too who went back to school. What about those people? Or parents who co-sign loans for their children.
I'm not a fan of people who don't take responsibility for their actions, but I'm not out to berate everyone. Given the thread title and what forum its in, it shouldn't be surprising to see responses questioning these individuals decisions. And what about kids who get arrested, pregnant, do drugs, or other poor decisions at 17. Should they get a pass as well because maybe they grew up in a bad neighborhood and didn't get a lot of guidance? Where do you draw the line when it comes to taking responsibility?
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And what about kids who get arrested, pregnant, do drugs, or other poor decisions at 17. Should they get a pass as well because maybe they grew up in a bad neighborhood and didn't get a lot of guidance? Where do you draw the line when it comes to taking responsibility
Well, in a sense, yes. They should get a pass.
Should you be able to reasonably compare the following:
My friend's kid, whose parents both have PhDs in engineering, who graduated at 17 and went to Yale, then med school, and is now an OB?
Some other inner city kid, with a single mom, on welfare, in an unsafe area with drug addicts on the corner.
Oh why does that inner city kid not pick them up from their bootstraps!!
Or why don't we compare:
My cousin, who got pregnant at 17 and had a baby at 18. Who...lived at home with mom, got married, went to the local college. Husband got a job. Eventually went on to get a PhD in physics and apply to be an astronaut. Her kid is on full scholarship to engineering school now. Note: small town kid, very smart, supportive family, married the dad, no alcohol, no drugs.
Some other kid who gets pregnant at 17, gets dumped, gets kicked out, has to drop out of school, and has no way of supporting herself?
Yeah, you know what? They *do* get a pass for making dumb decisions when their brains aren't fully formed.
Does that mean they never have to take responsibility? No. But I think it does mean we need to find (and fund) programs to help them get on their feet and make something of their lives when they had a shitty start. Because most of the time, the "shitty start" is something you have little control over. You can't pick your parents.
Should they get off the hook completely? No. But a $50k loan that turns into $100k is just a way for the banks to get filthy rich, and it's wrong. So garnish people's wages to pay it back, income-based repayment, and be done with it.
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Out of interest (pun intended) I googled the interest rates on Dutch student loans... this year it's a whopping 0.01%!
2015 0,01%
2014 0,12%
2013 0,81%
2012 0,6%
2011 1,39%
2010 0,01%
2009 0,12%
2008 0,81%
2007 0,6%
2006 1,39%
2005 0,01%
2004 0,12%
2003 0,81%
2002 0,6%
2001 1,39%
2000 0,01%
In 2011 I took out a small loan (3k or so for epic and long travel) and I remember feeling so shafted about the interest rate of 1.39%! Paid it off the same year though, so don't facepunch me too hard here. Still really happy to live in the Netherlands and not the USA (although I love to visit, it's an amazing country!).
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Yes, what I don't understand is where all the college money is going.
I went to an expensive private college in 1991 that cost roughly $22000/ year Tuition plus room and board.
I just looked it up and it is around $63000 25 years later. Where is all this money going?
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Administrators and facilities. Certainly not tenure or financial aid for most kids. It's a weird arms race, where colleges have no incentive to keep costs down because they have no skin in the game and students can borrow infinite money.
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this thread is a great example of what I dis-like about this forum, the Fox news GOP blame the victim mentality that peaks it head out occasionally.
LOL!!!! How are these idiots "victims" when they CHOSE to take out these loans and AGREED on the terms of the loans??? : ) They had no problem taking the $$$$$$ when offered.
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Well, in a sense, yes. They should get a pass.
Should you be able to reasonably compare the following:
My friend's kid, whose parents both have PhDs in engineering, who graduated at 17 and went to Yale, then med school, and is now an OB?
Some other inner city kid, with a single mom, on welfare, in an unsafe area with drug addicts on the corner.
Oh why does that inner city kid not pick them up from their bootstraps!!
Or why don't we compare:
My cousin, who got pregnant at 17 and had a baby at 18. Who...lived at home with mom, got married, went to the local college. Husband got a job. Eventually went on to get a PhD in physics and apply to be an astronaut. Her kid is on full scholarship to engineering school now. Note: small town kid, very smart, supportive family, married the dad, no alcohol, no drugs.
Some other kid who gets pregnant at 17, gets dumped, gets kicked out, has to drop out of school, and has no way of supporting herself?
Yeah, you know what? They *do* get a pass for making dumb decisions when their brains aren't fully formed.
Does that mean they never have to take responsibility? No. But I think it does mean we need to find (and fund) programs to help them get on their feet and make something of their lives when they had a shitty start. Because most of the time, the "shitty start" is something you have little control over. You can't pick your parents.
Should they get off the hook completely? No. But a $50k loan that turns into $100k is just a way for the banks to get filthy rich, and it's wrong. So garnish people's wages to pay it back, income-based repayment, and be done with it.
Yes, this.
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this thread is a great example of what I dis-like about this forum, the Fox news GOP blame the victim mentality that peaks it head out occasionally.
LOL!!!! How are these idiots "victims" when they CHOSE to take out these loans and AGREED on the terms of the loans??? : ) They had no problem taking the $$$$$$ when offered.
A 17 year old who cannot legally vote or drink?
A 21 year old who can't rent a fucking car? We don't trust them to rent a car (in general, for good reason), oh but the banks think they are to be trusted to to borrow tens of thousands of dollars?
People who wouldn't be able to get a mortgage can borrow student loan money.
This doesn't strike you as predatory?
My god, how awesome to be on such a pedestal, and to be someone who was the smartest of the smart at such a tender young age. Maybe you should make it your mission to help educate the masses on student loans.
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I agree, the government should stop pushing up the cost of college by providing a nearly-unlimited pool of money to prospective students that traps them in debt for years afterwards.
Not just debt, unforgivable debt. It is a bubble of unprecedented proportions, similar to the mortgage crisis only this time the debtors cannot walk away from their bad investments. They are on the hook for life.
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Ok, I get that some loans are extremely predatory, and a lot of students don't get great financial education at home or at school before they start college, but I'm confused about all of the discussion that tries to point the blame entirely away from the debtors, for the following reasons:
a) These individuals had a dream job/degree in mind...but apparently did no research about them. Did they look up the average income of the job they wanted? Did they google whether jobs could be found? Did they research....anything?
b) The older students, the ones who went back, surely they had an idea of what a dollar can get you? Surely they didn't look at 20,000 worth of student loans for a year and think they were getting a good deal.....?
c) Public education at a large state university at my hometown is 3,000-3,500 a semester. Yes, you live at home, not the dorms. Yes, you work part time (hopefully bringing in at minimum 500 a month...20 hours x minimum wage minus estimated taxes). Yes, you live cheaply. But, assuming you start working the summer after you graduate from college (better if you start before then), you already have cash for 2/3rds of your semester. If you are low income, you get the rest covered in grants. If you are in a higher income bracket...maybe you cover it with graduation gift money. Or, for either bracket, work during high school and work more than 20 hours a week in the summers.
3500 a semester can be covered while working at minimum wage during summers and breaks and about 20 hours a week in the school year. If you get any grants, you can work less (or have more flexibility). My siblings have all done it...I was the weird one who went to a private school out of state. But even I walked away from a school that charges 5500 a semester with only 8,000 in school loans.
d) Trade schools -- 2 year degrees. My husband makes significantly more than average for his age bracket and number of years in the industry. Sure, he's a got great work ethic and good inter-personal skills -- but he also only has an associates and he had to do the cheap grunt work too before making a real income. Those 12,000 in student loans for trade school sure paid off!
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Well, in a sense, yes. They should get a pass.
Should you be able to reasonably compare the following:
My friend's kid, whose parents both have PhDs in engineering, who graduated at 17 and went to Yale, then med school, and is now an OB?
Some other inner city kid, with a single mom, on welfare, in an unsafe area with drug addicts on the corner.
Oh why does that inner city kid not pick them up from their bootstraps!!
Or why don't we compare:
My cousin, who got pregnant at 17 and had a baby at 18. Who...lived at home with mom, got married, went to the local college. Husband got a job. Eventually went on to get a PhD in physics and apply to be an astronaut. Her kid is on full scholarship to engineering school now. Note: small town kid, very smart, supportive family, married the dad, no alcohol, no drugs.
Some other kid who gets pregnant at 17, gets dumped, gets kicked out, has to drop out of school, and has no way of supporting herself?
Yeah, you know what? They *do* get a pass for making dumb decisions when their brains aren't fully formed.
Does that mean they never have to take responsibility? No. But I think it does mean we need to find (and fund) programs to help them get on their feet and make something of their lives when they had a shitty start. Because most of the time, the "shitty start" is something you have little control over. You can't pick your parents.
Should they get off the hook completely? No. But a $50k loan that turns into $100k is just a way for the banks to get filthy rich, and it's wrong. So garnish people's wages to pay it back, income-based repayment, and be done with it.
Well said. I really appreciate this comic.
http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate
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LOL!!!! How are these idiots "victims" when they CHOSE to take out these loans and AGREED on the terms of the loans??? : ) They had no problem taking the $$$$$$ when offered.
Sofa King I just hope and pray that no one you love and care about ever gets taken advantage of because you voted for someone who refused to do anything about predatory lending/selling practices Because as you the victim should know better.
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Bullshit. These people should know better at this point. Personal accountability needs to come into play on this eventually. It is all over the media about these loans not being a good deal yet EVERY DAY there are more STUPID people asking where they can sign up for them. I have ZERO SYMPATHY for them ZERO.
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Ok, I get that some loans are extremely predatory, and a lot of students don't get great financial education at home or at school before they start college, but I'm confused about all of the discussion that tries to point the blame entirely away from the debtors, for the following reasons:
a) These individuals had a dream job/degree in mind...but apparently did no research about them. Did they look up the average income of the job they wanted? Did they google whether jobs could be found? Did they research....anything?
b) The older students, the ones who went back, surely they had an idea of what a dollar can get you? Surely they didn't look at 20,000 worth of student loans for a year and think they were getting a good deal.....?
I concur!!!
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Any comments on lifestyle inflation during college? Example, my freshman year I lived on campus, meal plan, no car, full scholarship. By junior year I took out a small loan to cover cost of moving off campus to an apartment to get out of a hell roommate deal. Other students were moving into brand new luxury apartments with granite countertops, no shared bedrooms, one apartment complex even had boat ramps and storage for students. It makes living on campus stigmatizing, like only the poor kids do that. Now I see on campus apartments constructed with rooftop swimming pools and flat screen TV in each unit. Tell me what educational value comes from that? But that's perceived as normal, even though rent there is twice what the "shoebox" freshman dorms with communal bathrooms charge.
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Well given that you are charging 10x as much tuition for the same course as you were a generation ago - you have to justify it somehow.
And the fancy gyms, climbing walls, and cinemas are easily covered by the savings in replacing lecturers with online video courses.
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I agree, the government should stop pushing up the cost of college by providing a nearly-unlimited pool of money to prospective students that traps them in debt for years afterwards.
Not just debt, unforgivable debt. It is a bubble of unprecedented proportions, similar to the mortgage crisis only this time the debtors cannot walk away from their bad investments. They are on the hook for life.
Do you know why student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy?
It's very easy to understand.
Student loans did not start off that way. You could discharge them in bankruptcy just like any loan.
So many Americans started filing for bankruptcy as a way of getting out of their student loans that Congress closed that loophole. That's right, your fellow Americans with student loans were ripping off their fellow citizens at such an alarming rate that something had to be done to stop it.
That's why. I lived thru those times and saw it happen.
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Student loans did not start off that way. You could discharge them in bankruptcy just like any loan.
So many Americans started filing for bankruptcy as a way of getting out of their student loans that Congress closed that loophole. That's right, your fellow Americans with student loans were ripping off their fellow citizens at such an alarming rate that something had to be done to stop it.
That's why. I lived thru those times and saw it happen.
Citation?
Not that I'm doubting your anecdotal experience, but I've heard this described as both a stone truth and an urban legend, with no actual proof either way.
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Well, I'm older than you are and can attest that it was not uncommon back in the day. Best were the folks who got medical or legal degrees and then declared bankruptcy. And no, I didn't keep a list for the purpose of citation thirty years later.
I will say the modern day equivalent might be the legions of folks who walked away from their mortgages for whinypants reasons.
There will always be a subset of people who take advantage of loopholes just because they're possible, not because they're the right thing to do.
And since you're the doubter, infogoon, I suggest you do your own research. Urban legend, my ass.
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It looks like the first change to the bankruptcy code came in 1976, when loans made by not-for-profit schools or by the government were made non-dischargeable. There were a bunch of tweaks here and there, always to whittle away the original exceptions for major student hardships or disabilities, or to extend the amount of time that had to pass before the loan could be written off. The next big change was in 2005 when all student loans, including private ones were made non-dischargeable. It may have been, basically, a gift to the banks and to people and firms who liked to speculate in student loan derivatives. After all, when one bubble bursts (real estate), the best thing to have is another bubble in the process of inflating.
http://business.time.com/2012/02/09/why-cant-you-discharge-student-loans-in-bankruptcy/
Here's the only article I could find with quantitative information about how many loans were actually discharged.
http://consumerist.com/2015/03/17/you-cant-discharge-your-student-loans-in-bankruptcy-because-of-panicked-1970s-legislation/
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18 to vote, drive, take out loans, and drink. Universal age of suffrage.
USA needs to get on with it. Standardize!
It's easier than going full metric.
So a 18 yo soldier can fight for his country and have a cold beer.
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Well, I'm older than you are and can attest that it was not uncommon back in the day. Best were the folks who got medical or legal degrees and then declared bankruptcy. And no, I didn't keep a list for the purpose of citation thirty years later.
I will say the modern day equivalent might be the legions of folks who walked away from their mortgages for whinypants reasons.
There will always be a subset of people who take advantage of loopholes just because they're possible , not because they're the right thing to do.
And since you're the doubter, infogoon, I suggest you do your own research. Urban legend, my ass.
Moralizing aside, you'd think that if this were such a huge, well-known problem, there'd be some readily available proof of it somewhere aside from a GAO report on under six hundred bankruptcies in 1977.
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Well, I'm older than you are and can attest that it was not uncommon back in the day. Best were the folks who got medical or legal degrees and then declared bankruptcy. And no, I didn't keep a list for the purpose of citation thirty years later.
I will say the modern day equivalent might be the legions of folks who walked away from their mortgages for whinypants reasons.
There will always be a subset of people who take advantage of loopholes just because they're possible , not because they're the right thing to do.
And since you're the doubter, infogoon, I suggest you do your own research. Urban legend, my ass.
Moralizing aside, you'd think that if this were such a huge, well-known problem, there'd be some readily available proof of it somewhere aside from a GAO report on under six hundred bankruptcies in 1977.
We might start by looking at some recent examples. One gets the sense that this phenomenon has picked up steam:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/23/pf/college/student_loan_fugitives/
http://www.vice.com/read/talking-to-american-debt-dodgers-who-moved-to-europe-to-avoid-paying-off-their-student-loans-111
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/us-graduates-crushing-student-loans-flee-europe-dodge-debt-find-jobs-1538498
I'm not really sure where one would go to find public data on this, but I'd bet SL lenders have such numbers for use in-house.
ETA: Not quite the same as declaring bankruptcy, but similar in concept since the lenders will never see a dime. These people will be SCREWED if they ever try to come back.
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Heck the American political leadership themselves spend their careers telling you one thing while doing another. Even a percentage of the clergy/preachers/pastors/etc professes to be followers of Jesus while refusing to accept everyone's "imperfections" and differences. A few of these are starting to see the light I think.
All that said - we'd have a great country if we could off-load these people to another planet. Maybe Mars? ;)
It's our Puritan heritage. The original Puritans weren't satisfied with simply living the kind of spiritual life that suited them: they felt entitled to try to impose their beliefs on others by using politics, social pressure, and anything else they could think of. Overall they were an obnoxious lot, and they made themselves so odious in England that eventually they weren't welcome. That, and their desire to create a religious autarchy by carving it out of some other land, eventually inspired many of them to move to Holland.
In the 17th and 18th century, the Netherlands had the most liberal immigration policy and the most religious freedom of any country in Europe. Basically, if you had a trade skill of some kind and were not a criminal or wanted for a crime in another country, the door was open to you and you could immigrate, bring your family, and set up shop. This provided a skilled labor pool. Factor in access to year-round seaports, independent municipal governments that were not necessarily part of the feudal system, and a functional commercial fleet that dated back to the Hanseatic League, and the Netherlands turned into an economic powerhouse almost overnight without having to rely excessively on overseas colonies (although they had a few). The booming economy and the demand for skilled labor wasn't the only thing the Netherlands had going for it: there was no established religious sect, and people were allowed complete freedom of religious practice provided they did not interfere with anybody else. It was the kind of laissez-faire, live-and-let-live society that libertarians fantasize about because although the society definitely had problems, the "I got mine, so fuck you" mentality hadn't set in yet.
Then came the Puritans. These folks didn't actually invent "I got mine, so fuck you", but they practiced it more intensively than any other tribe of people before or since.
The Puritan immigrants to the Netherlands definitely wanted to take advantage of the religious freedom there, but they had a problem with the fact that everyone else around them was just as free as they were. These other free people were making religious and lifestyle choices that differed from the ones the Puritans wanted them to make. The Puritans also asserted that spreading their belief and proselytizing or even trying to force or manipulate other people into following their religious dictates was a critical aspect of their faith. Unless they were given an entitlement to harass, lecture, and even legislate against other people whose habits of worship, dress, eating, or living didn't mesh with theirs, they truly believed they weren't practicing their religion. Indeed, the fact that other people didn't treat them with the reverence they believed they deserved by listening obediently or catering to their sensibilities was, in the Puritan mentality, a grave oppression roughly on par with being imprisoned or beaten up for their faith. Since many of the Puritans got off on the idea of being martyrs for their religion, the predictable reaction to their obnoxious behavior could have created an exceptional alignment of interests, had they only been willing to save their belligerence for people who actually wanted a confrontation.
Hypocrisy and rationalization were central to the Puritan practice, but they never recognized it as such, because they believed in the somewhat antinomian notion that, although they struggled for control over the law (and, by extension, other people), they were personally exempt from human law due to their moral superiority, if that human law happened to differ from whatever they wanted to do at the time.
Central to the Puritan mentality was the belief that Puritans were superior beings because they alone, of all the humans on the planet, possessed not just rectitude but a special capability for strong emotions regarding religion. These religious feelings, apparently, were more important than any other kind of feelings, and more important than any other person's cultural, social, or other sensitivities. Until they had the kind of political and economic control that allowed them to either exclude or punish people who weren't sufficiently considerate of their special feelings, they just weren't satisfied. They also weren't shy about showing just how much contempt they had for the country and people that had welcomed them. They never did integrate with Dutch society: they refused to get down with the live-and-let-live mentality, and their arrogance was such that they generally didn't even bother to learn the language. Inevitably, they made themselves just as unwelcome in the Netherlands as they'd done in England. So off they went to the "new" territories in the Americas to set up their own colonies based on the rules of the corporations they set up. The role of religion, and churches, was radically different from what had historically existed in Europe, since Puritan style churches emphasized worship and little or nothing else. The resulting lack of emphasis on public education, health care, elder care, and other services historically provided by religious institutions is a feature of American society to this day.
This is great. Was it not also the case that the Puritans believed in evidence of predestination? I have forgotten the proper word for it, but that thing where if you are destined to be saved you will seem saved (by being rich and prosperous) and if you are destined to be damned you will seem damned (by being poor). So poverty is evidence of sinfulness and is therefore not only entirely your fault but also far worse than the apparent material poverty.
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Do you know why student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy?
It's very easy to understand.
Yes I am familiar with this piece of history. Some people did abuse bankruptcy to escape their student debts. But lending has never been a risk free activity. No investment with any kind of yield is risk free. But now we have an environment where for-profit banks can lend money essentially risk-free as long as it is for college, backed by the power of governmental force to collect. This makes it much easier for students to borrow money, because the loans have an artificially suppressed level of risk. The increased availability of this credit drives the price of tuition up to the point where borrowing money for education becomes necessary for access to many fields for all but the most wealthy or most talented and savvy. Meanwhile kids are fed a steady stream of lies throughout their childhood that college is necessary for success, and that they should follow their dreams of studying Art History or Spanish Literature or whatever rather than pursuing a field that might actually have some income potential post graduation. Many buy it hook line and sinker while lacking the financial wherewithal to truly understand what they are agreeing to when they sign their promissory notes every fall.
Should these kids work harder to inform themselves? Should they do more research? Should they be more frugal while in school? Of course they should.
Have the education system and banking system invested heavily in creating this situation? Of course they have.
It is easy to place the blame solely on the students while ignoring the very real problems built into the system itself. As it was easy to place the blame on people who stupidly bought more house than they could afford at the peak of the market in 2006-2007, and then walked away from the mortgage. Yes, those people made a bad choice, but don't ask me to feel sorry for the banks when they don't get to collect on the debt. Lending money is risky and I don't agree with the government distorting the market by artificially suppressing this level of risk. Just as I didn't agree with the government intervening when banks made bad bets on mortgages being repaid.
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Stuff about the Puritan movement
This is great. Was it not also the case that the Puritans believed in evidence of predestination? I have forgotten the proper word for it, but that thing where if you are destined to be saved you will seem saved (by being rich and prosperous) and if you are destined to be damned you will seem damned (by being poor). So poverty is evidence of sinfulness and is therefore not only entirely your fault but also far worse than the apparent material poverty.
So far as I can tell they did believe that humans had free will and they weren't completely deterministic. But like many people they tended to view material success in life as evidence that they were favored by Providence, and material failure as evidence that they were doing something morally wrong. Broke? Then it's your own fault: work harder. That's actually pretty good advice in an early colonial environment when people are fighting for survival. Later on the context changed and the advice wasn't as universally useful.
Once the failures of the initial corporate structures the Puritans set up had been addressed (which took a couple years during which some colonies did very poorly), and in the very limited context of the agrarian and hunter/gatherer cultural models available, there really was a relationship between the amount of work a person did and the amount of food or wampum his or her family had afterwards. Thus, for the settlers:
1) work = wealth,
2) wealth = sign of divine favor, ergo
3) work = path to divine favor.
Trouble is, point #1 doesn't work outside the most primitive societies, and it presupposes a whole bunch of things such as individual capacity and the value of one's labor. Marx actually makes some intelligent observations on relative value of skilled versus unskilled labor in "Das Kapital". I won't repeat them here except to say that there is indeed a relationship between work and wealth, but it's not as cut and dried as many people would like to believe. Point #2 has problems too, but since the syllogism has already collapsed I'll leave it alone. The upshot is that in a more complex society, work doesn't necessarily equal reward even if you do what was successful for previous generations.
Plenty of people work hard and educate themselves, but are doomed to poverty. Maybe they work in a region where money is scarce, or they choose a field that doesn't pay well, or in the cases of the people in the original context of this thread, they borrow heavily to pay for their educations and are burdened with a heavy debt that makes savings and investment much harder. Or perhaps they simply don't have the brainpower to get through advanced education even if loans are made available to them. Maybe they have heavy family responsibilities that require them to give up educational opportunities.
I can point to several people in my own social circle who were felt intense family pressure to forego education beyond high school, or to drop out of high school, in order to care for a sick parent or elder, or to babysit younger siblings or to care for their own children if they happened to become pregnant as teens and did not have the kind of family support that would have allowed them to continue their education. Many took work in low-paying jobs to ensure that the rent or mortgage got paid and the rest of their families could get by. Out of all of those people, only one has really come back to enjoy a professional-class career and income. The rest have been trapped (possibly for life) by those early choices, which often weren't really choices. In nearly every case, the person trapped this way was born into a family where more than a third of the adults weren't functioning. Which in turn leads me, and some others, to question point #2 (OK, I didn't leave it alone).
Simply making education related loans available has allowed a few people to climb out of generational poverty, but not as many as I think society was hoping for. Failing to curb predatory lending has indeed been a contributing factor. I'm not trying to present every child from a poor family as being a helpless lamb who can be excused for not seeking out the basic facts, but at the same time the student loan industry has more wolves in it than shepherds.
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The cost of college is soaring and it's not because the teachers are racking it in, more and more classes are being taught by low paid temps
http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/o-adjunct-my-adjunct
Read some of the stories there and wow sofaking you are a real work, we might not agree on the solution but laugh at people when they're down, another Kevin O'leary here. Like I said I don't get how you think predatory loan practices are OK
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This one jumped out to me, a 8000 payment only 1000 went to the principle
work for the Federal Aviation Administration. I incurred approximately $50,000 in student debt through the Department of Education and private Lenders to attend DeVry for my Associates Degree. I was placed in default and into the Treasury Offset program by the Dept. of Ed due to their refusal to accept anything less that $395 a month in repayment. I am currently paying through an outside debt collector, but am still considered in default. The DoE intercepts and keeps any tax returns owed to me etc. Now there is a new problem. Occasionally, I am forced to travel for work for training, seminars, etc. I use a government issued travel card for these trips and submit a voucher upon completion of travel. The DoE has begun intercepting the travel reimbursement money and applying it to my debt also. Leaving me to pay for official travel out of pocket. I don't complain when they take my tax return, as it is my money and it is my debt, but they are now stealing money that is not and never was mine. On top of all that, when they take $8,000 of tax returns, just over $1000 goes toward the principle while the rest goes to interest and "fees". This is predatory lending at it's finest.
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Ok, I get that some loans are extremely predatory, and a lot of students don't get great financial education at home or at school before they start college, but I'm confused about all of the discussion that tries to point the blame entirely away from the debtors
I don't think you do get it really.
You do have a point with the older students. Yes, they should do more research.
But the "dream job" and "research" - do you NOT get that we are talking about teenagers for the most part??
Where the fuck are you going to do research? Where the hell was a small town girl in bum-fuck Pennsylvania going to do research on chemical engineering?
Two year degrees are great - but again, that's RESEARCH. At least in my home town, the schools are a little better, what with Vo-Tech and all. But not all schools are like that. Many just push "college" with no help on where to get info. Just "go to college". Shoot, that's what my current town/ school district is doing. It's maddening!!
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There are a lot of ways to attend college without getting six figure loans and I'm not sure how many different ways there are to say this. I'll never be of the mindset that teenagers should be held totally blameless for their actions, but thats my opinion. Nevertheless a lot of these stories were from older people who got themselves into debt and could never pull themselves out. Even people 30, 40, 50 years old were getting themselves into debt they can't climb out of. Telling people its not their fault isn't going to solve the problem.
I read these stories and it often makes me ask more questions. For the person who works for the FAA mentioned a couple replies ago...why did they spend $50k to get an Associates from a for-profit college? Why not a cheaper community college? It sounds like they have a stable government job, which is pretty good for having an AA, yet were placed in default for being unable to afford $395 a month. But...that person gets back a tax return of $8,000! And if that is a
regular thing, then that would of been more than enough to pay the minimum on the loan each month plus have $3k left over, which would of avoided default and having the government take the tax return. Instead, it gets seized with barely putting a dent in the loan (and likely some of that is going to pay extra fees from the loan going into default on top of the interest).
As I mentioned before the system DOES need changes. One example is how loans are often sold and sold again, making it a huge pain to try to track. If you end up owing multiple lenders different types of loans, that gets confusing real fast. Also, there needs to be more guidance on how the system works. Whether its at the high school level, college level, parents, teachers, etc. People need to be educated about the difference between unsubsidized versus subsidized loans, that you WILL almost certainly have to pay this back plus interest. It isn't the same as credit card debt. I know the interest rates are a lot lower these days but it can still snowball if someone has to keep taking unsubsidized loans out. There are a ton of things that could be done to improve the system. One thing being done where I live (Oregon) at the state level is offering free community college tuition for 2015 HS graduates with a 2.5 GPA+ and maintain that in community college. The program isn't perfect but its pretty reasonable overall and a step in the right direction. Tennessee has something similar already in place. I think programs that encourage lower cost options such as this are a great start.
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I do feel sorry for them up to a point. The student loan system seems set up to take advantage of ill-informed students. When I was in grad school, lenders were constantly advertising to me to take out more money. It was so easy. And being raised in a family that never talked about money, and having never had any lessons in personal finance, I had no idea what was a good decision regarding loans for college, because I had no idea what income to expect and what a loan payment might look like.
But at what point should a person know that they're taking out in loans more than they could pay back in 30 years? I know some students don't even calculate the tally of loans they have until it's time to pay, and are completely in the dark. I watched this happen to my roommate when she went to grad school. She chose an expensive private school and only worked part time, which means she needed loans both for tuition and for living expenses. She was living the high life, too, but all the other students in her program were doing the exact same thing so she thought nothing was wrong with that. Two of her classmates took a trip to Argentina using student loans (because what's another few thousand bucks on top of everything else they owe?). My roommate even considered quitting her part time job, just "to have the summer off." When she graduated and payments came due, I helped her calculate them (I think she owed over 80k), and she was going to have to pay $1,000 a month, which was astronomical to her, making $38,000 a year. She got on the Income-Based Repayment program right away.
I was lucky in that I graduated from college at a time where there were great loan consolidation deals (2005) so I locked in a very low interest rate around 2%. But I've never made a large salary, so for years I just paid the minimums on about $25,000 of those loans. When I was considering grad school, my roommate wanted me to go to her school, which would of put me at over $100,000 easily, and the thought of that much debt made me ill. I found a program for a third of the price and worked full time while attending school. I still manged to come out with an extra $25,000 in loans, though. I started becoming financially literate (finally) around the time my now-husband and I moved in together, and in the last 2 years we've paid off almost half of the total $53,000 in school debt I had accumulated, and we'll pay off the low interest rate loans in within the next 2 years.
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@archivist you bring a up point. I'm all for personal responsibility many many stories here of people who bucked up and best down heavy debt loads but that doesn't twke away from the fact America is turning into a plutocracy, Robert Reich writes a lot a out this - he's a bit over the top at times but his point is very valid. Here's an excellent example of this. why are we having to pay exorbitant prices for something that was given away for free
http://www.vox.com/2016/3/4/11160540/timothy-gowers-discrete-analysis
Bit off topic but this article fro NY Times both fascinating and scary at the same time
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/magazine/the-robots-are-coming-for-wall-street.html?_r=0
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Well, I'm older than you are and can attest that it was not uncommon back in the day. Best were the folks who got medical or legal degrees and then declared bankruptcy. And no, I didn't keep a list for the purpose of citation thirty years later.
I will say the modern day equivalent might be the legions of folks who walked away from their mortgages for whinypants reasons.
There will always be a subset of people who take advantage of loopholes just because they're possible , not because they're the right thing to do.
And since you're the doubter, infogoon, I suggest you do your own research. Urban legend, my ass.
Okay cool, so what do you think about making mortgages federally insured and undischargable in bankruptcy?
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Ok, I get that some loans are extremely predatory, and a lot of students don't get great financial education at home or at school before they start college, but I'm confused about all of the discussion that tries to point the blame entirely away from the debtors, for the following reasons:
a) These individuals had a dream job/degree in mind...but apparently did no research about them. Did they look up the average income of the job they wanted? Did they google whether jobs could be found? Did they research....anything?
b) The older students, the ones who went back, surely they had an idea of what a dollar can get you? Surely they didn't look at 20,000 worth of student loans for a year and think they were getting a good deal.....?
I concur!!!
Anecdotally I can say that I didn't look up my career path, I didn't look up much. I got lucky plain and simple. Not only are my parents both nurses and encouraged it as a career, they told me if I didn't go to college I had to move out, otherwise I could stay and they would continue to pay my living expenses (though none of my school expenses.) also, they loaned me the money I needed to pay for school and I went to a community college.
High schools have their college center people come in and give "statistics" on how college affects income by years in college (on average.) There was no mention of degree type, fields, or loans/interest rates. We were too busy being taught how to figure out the area of a circle. There is a lot that can be done about this debt issue, but the current system is clearly not working and I think it is unrealistic to believe it is going to be perfect for everyone which is why I personally believe in safety nets.
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Indeed it is hard to feel sorry for most of these people and stories. College IS expensive, but that doesn't mean you have to graduate with six figure debt with a liberal arts degree.
I concur!
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There are a bunch of new cry baby stories to read. I like the ones that cry about the debt they CHOSE to take on and they way they deal with it is to then is to take on even more loans by going back to school again. This guy says he HAD to borrow more $$$. LOL!!! He is also complaining because now he cant buy a NEW CAR.
I worked hard throughout college, but the college didn't offer any decent job placement, so after a year of failed attempts of trying to get a job in my area in the field I went to school for, I accepted an internship and still somehow managed to pay my student loans. The internship turned into a short-lived career in the field I went to school for, and then the economy tanked. I HAD to put my loans into forbearance, but it wasn't long enough because after a year I was still not fully employed, and had exhausted my savings and unemployment benefits. I HAD TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL to get a technical certificate, putting me more than $5500 more in debt (more over time with interest). Not too long after I got a new job, and was able to start paying again. I have done so faithfully since I have been employed for the last 6 years, but still feel like this takes way too much of my income. If I weren't paying as much per month, I could actually afford a NEW CAR since my current one is breaking me every few months and I'm in medical debt up to my eyeballs. Not having to deal with student loan debt would definitely make things better for me.
Chris Calvert April 7, 2016 Philadelphia
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.1bj6trVc.dpuf
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College is participation and many are waiting on their participation ribbon (a job that pays well enough to cover expenses)
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....and for MANY that never comes!
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Many new interesting stories! : )
MY STUDENT LOANS EVENTUALLY TOTALED OVER $1 MILLION, five times what was originally borrowed. The recession, financial struggles to keep up with taxes owed to the IRS meant we could not pay student loans. So the servicers sold the debt to subsidiaries they own and added 'collection fees,' assigned the debt to collection agencies who assessed a 30% collection fee while claiming the debt is in "rehabilitation" (Pioneer Credit Recovery, owned by Navient), and put other loans into forebearance while adding enormous collection fees WHILE the loans were in forebearance. At one point we took them all to court, suing them for their antics. The 9th Circuit Federal Judge who presided over our case was disgusted with the student loan companies, calling their actions, "...egregious" and, "...the worst thing I have ever seen." But still, no one has been able to help us. No one. No one does anything. We have no house. My husband cashed out his retirement after working for 33 years at the same company. We own nothing. We settled most of the debt but still have $300,000 left owing. My payments are $2,000/month on the Standard repayment plan because it is the ONLY repayment plan that actually pays down the principle. This is ridiculous. If I knew then, what I know now, I would never, EVER EVER EVER have gotten a single student loan. Ever. And I would have not gone to school. No crappy degree is worth the hell we've experienced. We'll come out of this one way or another if I die trying. But I don't wish this on anyone.
Amy January 28, 2016 Oregon
I owe over 90,000 in student debt. I graduated from the University of CHicago in 2015 as a model student, the first female editor in chief of both the student newspaper (the chicago maroon) and the campus investigative news journal (grey city magazine). I am highly skilled, award-winning journalist, who is stuck in a job working as a nanny + dinner server for a nyc reporter in order to keep ahead of my monthly loan payments. Instead of reporting myself -the reason I attended university, and incurred so much debt- I pour drinks for reporters.
Joy Crane February 21, 2016 New York City
I had very good grades aside from working a rinky dink cleaning job and raising 5 CHILDREN with my husband. I received little to no funding or grants/scholarships. No problem, since Davenport had a very successful job placement after school plan, I figured I would be okay to pay off loans. NOT THE CASE!!! I didn't qualify for anything and Davenport didn't even offer to help after I finished my undergrad program. When my loans went into payback mode, they wanted a house payment so I put myself on the IBR plan. I am currently still on the plan 5 years later. I called Navient the other day crying.. They had not processed my application and wanted that house payment in hand on the 23rd. I do not have this kind of money with my size family and no job. I have to say that the rep was kind and said she too was even in the same boat as us and wish she had never went to school. She finished my app immediately and told me what my amount was. Even though I felt better at the moment, my heart aches and my brains is fried. This has cost me sleepless nights, hours of crying, this sinking gut feeling that one day they will take everything from me to get their money back . $65,000 @ 6.8%. I will die with this loan unless they keep their word of forgiveness after 25 years on the IBR. I feel for all of us, not just myself. The government sees this debt.. This 1+trillion dollar debt. I keep my hopes high because something has to be done.
Aimee March 10, 2016 GR, Michigan
My student loan debt has skyrocketed to $135,000, of which $100,000 is the astronomical interest rate that I am stuck with to pay on this outrageous loan. I was encouraged by my school to take out student loans to pay for my education as a court reporter. Consequently my school closed, I NEVER RECEIVED THE DEGREE, and even though I had filed babkruotcy years ago, and attempted to discharge the student loans, my request was denied. I did manage to pay off two of the loans, but due to financial burden and family illness, I have been unsuccessful to get the current loan to a manageable state, I am deeply disturbed that there is no substantial relief for the current student loan debt burden, and that the banks are able to get away with unregulated policy that destroys people's lives. I pray that one day all student loan debt will be forgiven - it would forever change my quality of life.
jhr June 26, 2016 California
http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/
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The first one is mind boggling. How the hell does anyone get into a position of one million dollars of student debt? Well I guess fraud on the lenders part, given that it was reduced to 300K eventually.
I think part of the overall problem with student debt in the US is that repayment is not contingent on income.
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there is a student debt crisis in this country, and the students are only partially to blame. I think it's extremely callous to pretend they're all just a bunch of cry-babies. There really is a problem with higher education fees skyrocketing and predatory lending practices.
that said....they do put themselves in that position, often needlessly. I don't see any reason why people should go to 4 years of university if they're BORROWING the money. if you've got a trustfund or a college fund that pays for it all, then fine. but if you are personally borrowing money, then why on earth wouldn't you do the first 2 years at community college?
I have a friend who is a nurse. she makes about $80,000 per year before benefits. she went to community college and came out of school about 16 years ago with about $20,000 in debt. not too bad. except she has chosen to keep her loans in deferrment for 16 years! she claims financial hardship even though she and her husband BOTH drive a mercedes and have a nice house. she has never paid off one cent of her loan because she claims she can't afford it. HOW or WHY she is allowed to do this is beyond me, but the interest is still racking up this whole time...
I have another friend who constantly whines about her $60,000 student loan debt, but she chose to go to 4 years of university at an out of state school and got a bachelor's in fine arts and a minor in spanish. she works as a waitress and also "can't afford" to pay her loans. this just boggles my mind.
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I think part of the overall problem with student debt in the US is that repayment is not contingent on income.
Repayment is contingent on income. It's an income based repayment plan. No income = no payment. Even a very low income = no payment. If you income covers some payment but not the whole thing, then you have some payment. If you have sufficient income to make the payment then you make the full payment.
Now interest... it keeps building.
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The first one is mind boggling. How the hell does anyone get into a position of one million dollars of student debt? Well I guess fraud on the lenders part, given that it was reduced to 300K eventually.
I think part of the overall problem with student debt in the US is that repayment is not contingent on income.
You missed this part:
MY STUDENT LOANS EVENTUALLY TOTALED OVER $1 MILLION, five times what was originally borrowed. The recession, financial struggles to keep up with taxes owed to the IRS meant we could not pay student loans.
A person with little income does not "struggle to keep up with taxes" the same way that a person who gets a lot of income running their own business (and who does not pay quarterly installments) does... my bet is that they made some money, and spent it all without keeping aside the taxes, and likely ignored the SL's too until they received the first reminder letter, when it was too late.
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But that person whose school closed before they got the court reporter degree -- wow.
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There are some "professional students" as well, that know how to play the game to keep going to school for 6-9 years, all on student loans, to get the bachelors then the masters.... entirely because it is the only way to defer loan payments is to get more loans...
What I did not understand, is why the private loans to students were allowed (with no bankruptcy possible). Only people that are financially solvent to repay should get loans privately.
To my mind the only possible exception is doctors or other high value professions in their last year of school / residency that are extremely likely to be making big money very soon.
In return, bankruptcy protection for individuals should always exist to protect the worst case scenarios...
This system would allow a reversion back to people working for a couple of years to save money / get credit history before going to school.
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What I did not understand, is why the private loans to students were allowed (with no bankruptcy possible). Only people that are financially solvent to repay should get loans privately.
To my mind the only possible exception is doctors or other high value professions in their last year of school / residency that are extremely likely to be making big money very soon.
The lenders had no reason not to lend because the debt is impossible to discharge in bankruptcy. What sort of hardship the lender might undergo is of no concern to them. Now that the government is on their side, they can be just as predatory as any loan shark.
There are only two things that keep lenders from gouging unsophisticated people: the threat of loss, and punitive regulations that crack down on predatory lenders. The present American system has neither.
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What I did not understand, is why the private loans to students were allowed (with no bankruptcy possible). Only people that are financially solvent to repay should get loans privately.
To my mind the only possible exception is doctors or other high value professions in their last year of school / residency that are extremely likely to be making big money very soon.
The lenders had no reason not to lend because the debt is impossible to discharge in bankruptcy. What sort of hardship the lender might undergo is of no concern to them. Now that the government is on their side, they can be just as predatory as any loan shark.
There are only two things that keep lenders from gouging unsophisticated people: the threat of loss, and punitive regulations that crack down on predatory lenders. The present American system has neither.
I was unclear -- why the government allowed private loans to students that could not be discharged by bankruptcy.. Even in this country to your north, I remember that news came as a shocker.... (not the government loans being disallowed for bankruptcy, but rather the private loans..)
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What I did not understand, is why the private loans to students were allowed (with no bankruptcy possible). Only people that are financially solvent to repay should get loans privately.
To my mind the only possible exception is doctors or other high value professions in their last year of school / residency that are extremely likely to be making big money very soon.
The lenders had no reason not to lend because the debt is impossible to discharge in bankruptcy. What sort of hardship the lender might undergo is of no concern to them. Now that the government is on their side, they can be just as predatory as any loan shark.
There are only two things that keep lenders from gouging unsophisticated people: the threat of loss, and punitive regulations that crack down on predatory lenders. The present American system has neither.
I was unclear -- why the government allowed private loans to students that could not be discharged by bankruptcy.. Even in this country to your north, I remember that news came as a shocker.... (not the government loans being disallowed for bankruptcy, but rather the private loans..)
Bribery. Legislation is basically for sale here. It always has been and it probably always will be.
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Here in Norway it has been discussed whether personal financial knowledge shouldn't be a course to be taught in school. I think it should. The younger the better.
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Many new interesting stories! : )
Wow, lots of sympathy from me based on predatory lending.
Kind of horrible to poke fun when there's obviously predatory lending involved.
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This one jumped out to me, a 8000 payment only 1000 went to the principle
work for the Federal Aviation Administration. I incurred approximately $50,000 in student debt through the Department of Education and private Lenders to attend DeVry for my Associates Degree. I was placed in default and into the Treasury Offset program by the Dept. of Ed due to their refusal to accept anything less that $395 a month in repayment. I am currently paying through an outside debt collector, but am still considered in default. The DoE intercepts and keeps any tax returns owed to me etc. Now there is a new problem. Occasionally, I am forced to travel for work for training, seminars, etc. I use a government issued travel card for these trips and submit a voucher upon completion of travel. The DoE has begun intercepting the travel reimbursement money and applying it to my debt also. Leaving me to pay for official travel out of pocket. I don't complain when they take my tax return, as it is my money and it is my debt, but they are now stealing money that is not and never was mine. On top of all that, when they take $8,000 of tax returns, just over $1000 goes toward the principle while the rest goes to interest and "fees". This is predatory lending at it's finest.
This one caught my eye, because my recently departed dad was an Air Traffic Controller. I still belong to the FAA Credit Union. Dad got his training courtesy of the GI Bill. When I was in Jr. College (on my own dime + merit-based scholarships + multiple jobs), a classmate mentioned that he planned on becoming an ATC. He was a veteran, with a wife and small kids. I hooked him up with my dad, who guided him through the process. Tom became an ATC without needing an AA.
Requirements may have changed by now, but private school for an AA? Clearly not a well-researched choice. Back to the case cited. Obviously, the Hideously Expensive Private Junior College (aka Sukka Skool) did not require math comprehension. If the guy cited had merely adjusted his tax withholdings, he would have had more than enough to make his payments, with $3260 left over to apply to principal without any additional belt-tightening. Sad. Had he sought out free credit counseling or visited a library or done any Internet research, he could have avoided this mess.
The answer lies, in part, with mandatory financial literacy classes prior to graduation from High School.
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I am someone who's parents paid for their college education so I really do want to feel bad for people with student loans. I truly do. There are many cases where yeah, I do feel bad for them, but then there are many cases where I honestly wonder WTF they are thinking.
One example is someone that my friend wants to ask out but is completely wary of due to her debts. She's 34 and is a semester away from getting her master's, but told him that she's signed up for another two semesters of courses because "she loves learning." Her entire masters' tuition is student loans (I didn't ask about her undergrad) and her income isn't all that high, nor will it get much higher with a master's degree. My friend is scared away because he thinks she has at least $100k in student debt, which is a deal-breaker for him.
I know a couple that asked for investment advice about 5 years ago. The women was a philosophy major and after they asked what a mutual fund was asked about getting her masters in philosophy. I almost had to excuse myself, combined the couple had about $75k in student loans and were earning about $30k. They also planned to have a baby in the next year.
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Many new interesting stories! : )
Wow, lots of sympathy from me based on predatory lending.
Kind of horrible to poke fun when there's obviously predatory lending involved.
Read some of the stories. MANY are people who just made REALLY stupid decisions and did not put ANY thought into what they were agreeing to.
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This is great. Was it not also the case that the Puritans believed in evidence of predestination? I have forgotten the proper word for it, but that thing where if you are destined to be saved you will seem saved (by being rich and prosperous) and if you are destined to be damned you will seem damned (by being poor). So poverty is evidence of sinfulness and is therefore not only entirely your fault but also far worse than the apparent material poverty.
You chose the right word: Predestination. The idea that you are already either saved or damned, and nothing you do -- positive or negative -- can change that. Presbyterians and Calvinists believe in Predestination, but most Protestants do not. The question is, Predestination vs. Free Will. Other denominations say that God has prior knowledge of what you (and every other individual) will choose, but He doesn't make the choice -- He just knows already what path you will choose. Yet other denominations say that you can be predestined to salvation ... but if you end up in Hell, it's on you; it wasn't predestined. I have to say that I can't get my head around that last good-but-not-bad concept at all.
It's a very difficult topic, and I don't claim to have a good understanding of it. I figure that if you're seriously thinking it through, God is speaking to you, and I don't see why he'd bother speaking to the damned. And then there's the practical side of the question: If you could have an absolute answer to the question of predestination, Would you live your life differently?
On the other hand, you have another part wrong: No Biblical evidence ties worldly prosperity (or worldly poverty) to Predestination. Quite the opposite: The Bible gives examples of godly men who were rich ... and equally godly men who were poor. The message is clear: Your status on earth isn't tied into salvation. Joel Olsteen (of Sunday morning TV fame) preaches that God WILL prosper His people, but that cannot be supported Biblically.
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Many new interesting stories! : )
Wow, lots of sympathy from me based on predatory lending.
Kind of horrible to poke fun when there's obviously predatory lending involved.
Read some of the stories. MANY are people who just made REALLY stupid decisions and did not put ANY thought into what they were agreeing to.
Whether if was a lack of foresight that led to drugs, joining a cult, or huge debt - they are all people who need counseling before they become marriage material.
Way back when I was younger and dating I dodged a couple of those. One was a mess and the relationship was semi-serious but not that long lived yet. Once I realized the breadth of the mess, it was time to move on.
The second one likely would have led to marriage until I saw all her kinds of dysfunction up close. We started out dating locally but ended up dating long distance.
All related to making money (or not i.e. unemployment, procrastination) or how she spent it (wouldn't make careful choices, take care of her stuff, adapt her spending to her income level).
I gently tried to shape her choices a little, make suggestions and when it was not well received it was time to move on.
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It seems like your friend is too cautious about romantic relationships. It's not even known how much debt there is, your friend is simply doing a wild estimate based on some flippant comments. She could only have $30 K in debt, which should be nothing to a mustachian.
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These stories are somewhat heartbreaking due to the predatory nature of lenders, especially to fund "dreams".
Personal story on my end: I am quite lucky. My parents worked hard and told all of us kids: "You get tuition for one degree from us. That's it. Everything else, you self-finance. If you get a scholarship, it's your money to keep and invest."
So I did the smartest thing possible as an 18-year old, which was go to university and get a theatre degree.
Graduated, and after year 1 of making $400 a week, realized I needed to make more money. Year 2 I worked my butt off and saved every penny I had for an MBA, and self-financed at a very reasonably priced institution that offered paid internship placements as well. Also involved living literally in a basement in a cramped room with no light next to an old washer, dryer, and furnace.
People make mistakes. I certainly did. It's that drive of overcoming hopelessness that is so important and pushing yourself while you are at bubbly-energetic millenial age. I find that drive, if found, carries over into the working world.
A few others mentioned it to: but sacrifice. I basically didn't have nice things ever. And still choose not to.
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*Snip* a young woman who was complaining loudly about having six-figure student loan debt that she felt the government should forgive. She revealed that she and her husband hadn't worked in two years and they were surviving on handouts from their parents because "we're proud, we won't go on welfare." *snip*
Pride goeth before the fall. Seriously, get some f-ing food stamps and a fair amount of those loan payments can go away for a least a short time, and then you can divert the money you would have spent on excessively expensive foodstuffs toward your damned debt. No one to thank but herself.
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*Snip* a young woman who was complaining loudly about having six-figure student loan debt that she felt the government should forgive. She revealed that she and her husband hadn't worked in two years and they were surviving on handouts from their parents because "we're proud, we won't go on welfare." *snip*
My good friend's daughter and husband did this to him. His wife thought it was a good idea...My explanation didn't mean anything to her. He understood.
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This is great. Was it not also the case that the Puritans believed in evidence of predestination? I have forgotten the proper word for it, but that thing where if you are destined to be saved you will seem saved (by being rich and prosperous) and if you are destined to be damned you will seem damned (by being poor). So poverty is evidence of sinfulness and is therefore not only entirely your fault but also far worse than the apparent material poverty.
...
On the other hand, you have another part wrong: No Biblical evidence ties worldly prosperity (or worldly poverty) to Predestination. Quite the opposite: The Bible gives examples of godly men who were rich ... and equally godly men who were poor. The message is clear: Your status on earth isn't tied into salvation. Joel Olsteen (of Sunday morning TV fame) preaches that God WILL prosper His people, but that cannot be supported Biblically.
I don't mean to get all antsy about this, but I never said it was Biblically supported. I have a degree in theology in which I did half my modules in the New Testament (and most of the rest in the Old Testamant and early church) pretty sure I know what's in there. But we did Calvin for one week once in the first year, hence being a little wobbly on predestination. But I knows mah Bible! :)
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*Snip* a young woman who was complaining loudly about having six-figure student loan debt that she felt the government should forgive. She revealed that she and her husband hadn't worked in two years and they were surviving on handouts from their parents because "we're proud, we won't go on welfare." *snip*
My good friend's daughter and husband did this to him. His wife thought it was a good idea...My explanation didn't mean anything to her. He understood.
I have never understood how a person can be "too proud" to get financial help from the government but not "too proud" to ask for and/or accept the exact same stuff off of family or friends. They're too proud to seek out subsidized housing but not too proud to move into someone else's home. They're too proud to sign up for food stamps or accept food from a food bank, but not too proud to raid a friend's fridge. They're too proud to sign up for subsidized medical care through Medicaid, but not too proud to set up a GoFundMe to bleed everyone who knows them on social media. They're too proud to sign up for temporary cash assistance for needy families, but not too proud to hit their friends up for "loans" that of course will not be repaid.
I'm sure that signing up for a government benefit is hard on the old ego. But many people sacrifice their egos or their pride in order to provide for themselves and their families.
How can anybody feel pride, when they knowingly create a burden that gobbles up a substantial slice of the monthly budget of the people who love them, reducing their standard of living? Taking money or resources from the government, by contrast, creates just a tiny blip in the overall available budget and doesn't require anybody to make major sacrifices in order to support them. But you can't tell that to someone from the more economically privileged section of the entitlement class. They truly believe that it's reasonable and right of them to ask and expect the people around them to make sacrifices in order to help them, while they categorically refuse to make any sacrifices whatsoever to help themselves.
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I'll admit I feel sorry for some of them. I was incredibly lucky to have my degree (private school, no less) paid for by my parents -- plus they provided guidance regarding the connection between career and pay. Having followed in my father's footsteps to become an engineer, it's hard to overstate the positive impact of my parents on my job/life trajectory.
Especially reading about the people with loans that have close relatives get cancer, I can't imagine the emotional/physical/financial toll of supporting that family member. And while kids are generally avoidable, birth control is imperfect even when used properly -- and plenty of user error occurs. I would assume (totally admit I haven't researched this at all) that plenty of unplanned kids end up supported only by a single parent, which increases the financial burden.
Thinking back to high school graduation, having a part-time job taught me some rudimentary financial skills, but did not prepare me for a decision that could cost $200,000 plus interest. (I recognized that my college choice cost my parents quite a lot, but knew they could afford it in a hazy don't-know-how-much-Dad-makes way). Certainly there was information available on the internet, but I hadn't yet experienced a full-time job or had to pay my own bills. My worldview was very much shaped by my family and close friends -- it's possible that in an alternate reality I would be one of those 'complainers'.
Looking at a couple on the site:
#1 - Mother convinces kid to take out a student loan so she can use the money to pay her bills.
#2 - Kid with anxiety disorder gives in to parents/guidance counselor/therapist insisting that they go to college, despite him realizing his interests don't align with college.
More - people with disabled children, people who have acquired disabilities, people who were reassured by the school that they would have a good job when they graduated...
Hopefully they are taking action and not just throwing up their hands. But mostly these posts make me feel gratitude for my good fortune.
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I'm sure that signing up for a government benefit is hard on the old ego. But many people sacrifice their egos or their pride in order to provide for themselves and their families.
I don't understand why people's ego is standing in the way for this. Government benefits are something you are entitled to, because you or your parents have paid taxes all these years to contribute to this system. I personally think it is easier to ask for these benefits than asking a relative.
Although the one time when I needed government support for being without a job during 2 months, I felt quite embarrassed, because the benefit office was not designed to encourage you to come there very often. I made sure I came back to work very quickly via a temp office. But at least I didn't bother my relatives with the short problem.
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People don't want to ask for additional benefits, like welfare, because it is admitting that they are "the poor".
Asking family for help is just what people do, because in a few years, they may ask for help back...or you would stay with them when they are sick, or ...... just because family owes you...... RIGHT???
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I don't get it either, the family I was helping refused to get food from food bank (no food stamps here), but accepted the government's tiny amount for their situation, and constantly asked my father for what ended up to be the equivalent of $900 per month for the last 10 months.
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Funny but I'd feel better asking the gov't for money than family. Prob b/c family could shove that back into a conversation for the rest of your life to spite you.
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Funny but I'd feel better asking the gov't for money than family. Prob b/c family could shove that back into a conversation for the rest of your life to spite you.
Yup, and people that use government services can always pretend like they never got a handout like Craig T Nelson did.
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On another site I saw someone posting about wanting to pay their student loans before they are 60, they are 47 right now and it sounds like they wanted a pity-party for having student loans. I don't know this person's backstory, but assuming that they graduated college AND got a masters, there's a good chance they have had 20 full years to pay off their student loan. Maybe there was a series of unforeseen events that forestalled payment, but I can't feel sorry for someone that took out a loan to get a degree that isn't paying enough to justify such an investment.
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We're all talking as if the choice of major is what affects the ROI of post-secondary education.
But what if it isn't? What if the types of people who choose non-marketable majors are the same types of people who would fail to generate substantial incomes anyway? What if college simply gives those people an excuse to run up a couple of high-expense/low-income years at the start of what would be a low-wage lifestyle anyway? In that case, isn't it irresponsible to allow those people access to this money-pit?
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We're all talking as if the choice of major is what affects the ROI of post-secondary education.
But what if it isn't? What if the types of people who choose non-marketable majors are the same types of people who would fail to generate substantial incomes anyway?
This is an interesting point. I graduated with a marketing degree and self taught myself programming after graduating so I'm now making a pretty good salary. One of my friends graduated with a linguistics degree and is now a data scientist at a major e-retailer.
Come to think of it, I don't know if these two examples support or hurt your point haha
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I do find it shocking that an 18-year old, or 22-year-old, can borrow as much for an education based on theoretical future earnings from a theoretical degree, with an easy application, as I did in my 40s for a mortgage on my home that involved six weeks of paperwork by the bank, a ton of documentation and a major downpayment, and demonstrating a long and excellent credit history (that the bank STILL said was on the skimpy side because I was too conservative about credit cards). And the bank has something to take back if I screw up and don't pay!
Amazing how eager they are to give out debt when you can't get rid of it thru bankruptcy.
That's the biggest issue, really. When you can't get rid of the debt thru bankruptcy, and they can garnish wages, then there are no consequences to banks/gov't for giving out an irresponsible loan. The fact that people can just throw unlimited student loans at education means that the usual supply/demand check on the price of education goes completely out the window. No reason to not increase prices when it'll get paid regardless. In fact, I had a marketing prof at my alma mater say that if they didn't increase tuition enough, it might give the impression that the school wasn't very good, if the price became too low compared with similar schools.
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Or unless you actually want to get a degree in four years. My cousin enrolled at a state school (UC Santa Barbara). With funding cuts, the classes are so overcrowded that it's almost impossible to get into required courses. Because of this it would have taken her over six years to get her "four year" degree. So she transferred to a private school where she could actually take her classes.
Even at a private school that's an issue. I did my 4 year degree in 5 years and at the end of that 5 years there was still a class in my program they'd never even offered once! Last semester I only had 1 real class but had 2 waivers, and one pass by testing out due to class availability issues throughout the years...
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Or unless you actually want to get a degree in four years. My cousin enrolled at a state school (UC Santa Barbara). With funding cuts, the classes are so overcrowded that it's almost impossible to get into required courses. Because of this it would have taken her over six years to get her "four year" degree. So she transferred to a private school where she could actually take her classes.
Even at a private school that's an issue. I did my 4 year degree in 5 years and at the end of that 5 years there was still a class in my program they'd never even offered once! Last semester I only had 1 real class but had 2 waivers, and one pass by testing out due to class availability issues throughout the years...
Most schools have some mechanism to challenge courses that aren't listed: you get the materials, teach yourself, take the final exam and pay a hefty fee, which in some schools can be the same as the requisite tuition, lab, and technology fees for those course hours. It's not cheap but in many cases it's the only option when the schools require you to have a class but either refuse to teach it or make it logistically impossible to attend all of your required classes due to simultaneous scheduling, etc. Classroom learning really isn't the most efficient way to get information into your head anyway. The only thing classrooms are good for is reviewing the information you have already studied or introducing new things that aren't already in the book (which the instructor generally wrote and requires you to buy new because only the most recent whizbang edition is acceptable).
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Many new interesting stories! : )
Wow, lots of sympathy from me based on predatory lending.
Kind of horrible to poke fun when there's obviously predatory lending involved.
Read some of the stories. Most of them are just stupid people who had no problem taking the $$$$ when offered. Many even signed up for more $$$$ when they knew it would take the rest of their lives to pay back what they already borrowed.
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There are a lot of ways to attend college without getting six figure loans and I'm not sure how many different ways there are to say this. I'll never be of the mindset that teenagers should be held totally blameless for their actions, but thats my opinion. Nevertheless a lot of these stories were from older people who got themselves into debt and could never pull themselves out. Even people 30, 40, 50 years old were getting themselves into debt they can't climb out of. Telling people its not their fault isn't going to solve the problem.
I concur!
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Funny but I'd feel better asking the gov't for money than family. Prob b/c family could shove that back into a conversation for the rest of your life to spite you.
Yup, and people that use government services can always pretend like they never got a handout like Craig T Nelson did.
I had to Google this. Interesting!
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My parents are a bit thrifty but not really mustachian (they did just buy a really expensive huge motor home). One of the best things they did do for me when picking out a college was lay out all the financial aid packages and clearly show what I would owe after 4 years at all the schools I was accepted to. My dream school was expensive and in the end I couldn't reconcile my "dream" with what it would cost me, so I chose a cheaper in state school.
Very happy with my decision, ended up switching majors and careers to one with better options and graduated with <5k in debt. Virtually no private college is worth the cost except very few "name recognition" schools *Harvard, Yale etc...)
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Many new interesting stories! : )
Wow, lots of sympathy from me based on predatory lending.
Kind of horrible to poke fun when there's obviously predatory lending involved.
Read some of the stories. Most of them are just stupid people who had no problem taking the $$$$ when offered. Many even signed up for more $$$$ when they knew it would take the rest of their lives to pay back what they already borrowed.
Your empathy is touching.
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Funny but I'd feel better asking the gov't for money than family. Prob b/c family could shove that back into a conversation for the rest of your life to spite you.
Yup, and people that use government services can always pretend like they never got a handout like Craig T Nelson did.
I had to Google this. Interesting!
Yeah, it helps to explain the cognitive dissonance some people have.
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Yesterday I heard a person who is working approx 40% and receiving a fee from the government for not being able to work full time. She has been telling us earlier that she owns little money to come by, but that her husband is very supportive in finding solutions. But she told us about feeling very uncomfortable about accepting money from the government. "When I sit at the hair dresser to add blond stripes to my hair, I feel guilty about spending government money on this.". That makes me think: If you feel guilty about spending the extra government money on stuff that is not very necessary in life, then you should not have spent it at all. Then it should rather have been spent on healthy food or put in a savings account, in my opinion. I mean, why prioritize stripes in your hair if your husband is helping out to find solutions to come by with little money? I also have understood this woman trains at a training center. That is not cheap either.
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WOW.
Anyone want to speculate what portion of the population makes these sort of short sighted choices? i find as I get older the more cynical my assessment of the general population becomes.
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My parents are a bit thrifty but not really mustachian (they did just buy a really expensive huge motor home). One of the best things they did do for me when picking out a college was lay out all the financial aid packages and clearly show what I would owe after 4 years at all the schools I was accepted to. My dream school was expensive and in the end I couldn't reconcile my "dream" with what it would cost me, so I chose a cheaper in state school.
Very happy with my decision, ended up switching majors and careers to one with better options and graduated with <5k in debt. Virtually no private college is worth the cost except very few "name recognition" schools *Harvard, Yale etc...)
Our son attends a private college. He received scholarships which are renewable, making it just as affordable as a state school.
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Not sure if this gem has been posted yet...
I took out $25000 of federal loans (some subsidized and some not) for a Master's degree in Education in 1993 so that I could continue to teach and at some point not have to have a second job to make ends meet. Silly me. I have paid back over $35000 and still owe $20000. I have paid off 3 cars, each around $25000, in that same time frame. Something is WRONG.
No SHIT SOMETHING IS WRONG. Your DUMB ASS has bought and paid for three new cars in the time frame since you've borrowed your student loans. Idiot!
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Looking back, I fully dodged many financial bullets out of dumb luck, including student loans. I started college at 14 (long story), getting my bachelors at 19, and taking 1 more year of masters work (didn't finish it).
I took out loans to the tune of $14k total over 6 years. University of Alaska Fairbanks was a pretty cheap school. During the third year I was working student jobs and didn't need further loans. But I had no real concept at the time about long term thinking and didn't have a clue about what the payments would be despite being an engineering student with lots of math background. I worked the student jobs because it was a "good" thing to do I was told, and it was. There was a lot of chatter from various sources that paying for college was "good" debt. Hell, I had no idea how much money I was likely to make with my degree.
In hindsight I was a naive idiot in so many ways, and $14k ended up being no big deal to pay off over a few years. I could easily have come out of school with several times that without realizing what I had gotten myself into.
My mother was very frugal, and I tended to be cheap (and only years later understood the difference). But I was cheap out of rote instilled habit as opposed to having a proper life philosophy. Teenagers starting college are largely naive idiots as well, especially about financial things. For many aping their parents until they figure out the "real" world is all they have to go on, and it can be a double edged sword.
So I sit on both sides of the fence. I am all for personal responsibility and expecting people to payback their loans. I also readily agree that way too many loans are crooked and should never have been made in the first place. Non-chargeable loans should never be allowed. High interest loans should never be allowed. If you can't find a way to loan money with the chance of default at a fair interest rate the loan should simply not be made, full stop.
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I'm lucky that I never got sucked into college debt. I didn't even know they existed when I graduated highschool when I was 17.
But the script goes something like this. Kids have teachers, parents, and the culture telling them that college is a sure path to success. At the same time, kids are told that following their passion is the highest good in life. And of course, college is portrayed as a fun time with lots of partying and shenanigans and sex. Who wouldn't want that?
So kids pick a degree that sounds cool or sounds like something they might be interested in. Of course, colleges have helpfully set up many 'fun' degree tracks. Money is made readily available to fund all this.
Why do people take the money? Well, they "must" go to college. Only deadbeats don't go to college. You might end up as a plumber or a roughneck if you didn't! And they wouldn't lend you money if you couldn't pay it back, right? Besides, pursuing your passion is more important than money? Besides, our parents had good jobs and nice house and shiny cars so we'll be fine too.
And then they graduate. Jobs are no where to be found, but they spent all that time and money on their degree so they don't want to look at other things. Of course, there is massive pressure from our consumer culture to live a certain lifestyle. That's what we've freed ourselves from here, but it can be very difficult to do, especially if you're not a very conscientious person.
One other thing. To many people, paying these debts must seem a Herculean task, and at those interest rates, it is. The very thought scares the hell out of me. My wife has $7k from hair dressing school and that's bad enough.
So I think the solution here isn't to mock people for doing what they were told to do by going to college, damn the debt. The solution is to stop using laws and government money to subsidize this nonsense, and to change the way we talk about college.
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I feel bad for some of the cases, but most are self inflicted. I paid off nearly $45k in two years after graduation. We made only $74k and $45k in years 1 and 2 respectively and on top saved nearly $5k in retirement accounts. Looking back, I had strong motivation to pay off the debts, but there was wastage. I bought a used luxary car from my first employer when I started the job and it was an expensive car to maintain.
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Not sure if this gem has been posted yet...
I took out $25000 of federal loans (some subsidized and some not) for a Master's degree in Education in 1993 so that I could continue to teach and at some point not have to have a second job to make ends meet. Silly me. I have paid back over $35000 and still owe $20000. I have paid off 3 cars, each around $25000, in that same time frame. Something is WRONG.
No SHIT SOMETHING IS WRONG. Your DUMB ASS has bought and paid for three new cars in the time frame since you've borrowed your student loans. Idiot!
Haha - Paid off $75,000 in car loans but can't pay off $25k in Federal Loans.
I wonder how many people are going to try and let their loans stay around as long as possible hoping that one day their loans will be forgiven.
I had student loans and was comfortable with the low payment. For about 6-7 years, I just kept paying that monthly debt. Then, as I became more serious about my financial future, I ended up changing my perspective. At that time, I was using the same amount of money that I had in loans to buy and sell stocks. One day, I figured the guaranteed return of not paying money towards my student loans outweighed what I could potentially make in this amazing bull market from a psychological standpoint. I emptied the brokerage account, paid off the loan, and have been happy with that decision.
Yes, that money in the brokerage would have made me more money in this market, but it is not life changing as to how I feel after paying off that debt. Interestingly enough, I am not even a debt adverse type of person. Borrow money at <2% for a car? How much of the car purchase can I borrow? haha
A lot of people have put student loans into the same category as cell phone payments. They are just something that we will live with on a monthly basis. I was in that boat for years and had the mindset of "This is my net income? Well, let me subtract $XXX for my student loans to find my real take home."
Now I am facing the big issue of, "Stop building an excessive financial cushion and continue to divert that $XXX from student loans to a brokerage account."
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What I did not understand, is why the private loans to students were allowed (with no bankruptcy possible). Only people that are financially solvent to repay should get loans privately.
To my mind the only possible exception is doctors or other high value professions in their last year of school / residency that are extremely likely to be making big money very soon.
The lenders had no reason not to lend because the debt is impossible to discharge in bankruptcy. What sort of hardship the lender might undergo is of no concern to them. Now that the government is on their side, they can be just as predatory as any loan shark.
There are only two things that keep lenders from gouging unsophisticated people: the threat of loss, and punitive regulations that crack down on predatory lenders. The present American system has neither.
I was unclear -- why the government allowed private loans to students that could not be discharged by bankruptcy.. Even in this country to your north, I remember that news came as a shocker.... (not the government loans being disallowed for bankruptcy, but rather the private loans..)
Bribery. Legislation is basically for sale here. It always has been and it probably always will be.
Wrong.
When I was in college in the 1970s and early 80s, the default rate on student loans was extremely high. Basically, too many students are doing exactly what some people on these forums have advocated is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. They racked up big student loans and then immediately declared bankruptcy. They never had the slightest intention of repaying those loans.
That widescale behavior threatened the entire process. If it wasn't stopped, no one would be willing to lend money to the honest students who really needed those loans to get ahead.
So the law was changed to protect honest people from those students who would defraud the system.
What wasn't anticipated was that so many Americans are so clueless about money that they would rack up $190,000 in student loans to get a degree that would enable them to get a job that paid $25,000 a year.
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What I did not understand, is why the private loans to students were allowed (with no bankruptcy possible). Only people that are financially solvent to repay should get loans privately.
To my mind the only possible exception is doctors or other high value professions in their last year of school / residency that are extremely likely to be making big money very soon.
The lenders had no reason not to lend because the debt is impossible to discharge in bankruptcy. What sort of hardship the lender might undergo is of no concern to them. Now that the government is on their side, they can be just as predatory as any loan shark.
There are only two things that keep lenders from gouging unsophisticated people: the threat of loss, and punitive regulations that crack down on predatory lenders. The present American system has neither.
I was unclear -- why the government allowed private loans to students that could not be discharged by bankruptcy.. Even in this country to your north, I remember that news came as a shocker.... (not the government loans being disallowed for bankruptcy, but rather the private loans..)
Bribery. Legislation is basically for sale here. It always has been and it probably always will be.
Wrong.
When I was in college in the 1970s and early 80s, the default rate on student loans was extremely high. Basically, too many students are doing exactly what some people on these forums have advocated is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. They racked up big student loans and then immediately declared bankruptcy. They never had the slightest intention of repaying those loans.
That widescale behavior threatened the entire process. If it wasn't stopped, no one would be willing to lend money to the honest students who really needed those loans to get ahead.
So the law was changed to protect honest people from those students who would defraud the system.
What wasn't anticipated was that so many Americans are so clueless about money that they would rack up $190,000 in student loans to get a degree that would enable them to get a job that paid $25,000 a year.
This could have been accomplished just as easily by allowing lenders to qualify borrowers and adjust interest rates based on a borrower's projected ability to repay. Banks are already extremely good at doing that. They do it all the time when approving people for mortgages and other loans that are actually secured by something.
Example: Little Suzy Snowflake wants to major in rhythmic basket-weaving appreciation. Although it is offered as a major at a thousand and ninety-five different universities, the only available jobs in the field are for people who take the program all the way through to a PhD and who subsequently teach it. The probability of making it into a graduate program is about 5% and competition is fierce, but after completing the PhD a professor has a 10% chance of earning about $30k per year working as an adjunct professor. She is accepted into the prestigious Ben Dover University on the other side of the country, where she expects to spend $95,000 per year on tuition and other expenses including accommodations. Her completed FAFSA shows a combined parental income of only $75,000 from all sources, they have saved $80,000 for Little Suzy's education, and she has perhaps $190 in personal savings after high school because although she works she blows every penny she earns on fast food and Abercrombie. After her first term of university is complete, where she takes four courses instead of the traditional five, her grade point average is a stunning 1.9 out of a possible 4.0.
I ask you: if you were a loan officer, would you approve this loan?
Also, if you were a legislator of the uncorrupted persuasion, would you write a law to help protect a bank that did?
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I'm lucky that I never got sucked into college debt. I didn't even know they existed when I graduated highschool when I was 17.
But the script goes something like this. Kids have teachers, parents, and the culture telling them that college is a sure path to success. At the same time, kids are told that following their passion is the highest good in life. And of course, college is portrayed as a fun time with lots of partying and shenanigans and sex. Who wouldn't want that?
So kids pick a degree that sounds cool or sounds like something they might be interested in. Of course, colleges have helpfully set up many 'fun' degree tracks. Money is made readily available to fund all this.
Why do people take the money? Well, they "must" go to college. Only deadbeats don't go to college. You might end up as a plumber or a roughneck if you didn't! And they wouldn't lend you money if you couldn't pay it back, right? Besides, pursuing your passion is more important than money? Besides, our parents had good jobs and nice house and shiny cars so we'll be fine too.
And then they graduate. Jobs are no where to be found, but they spent all that time and money on their degree so they don't want to look at other things. Of course, there is massive pressure from our consumer culture to live a certain lifestyle. That's what we've freed ourselves from here, but it can be very difficult to do, especially if you're not a very conscientious person.
One other thing. To many people, paying these debts must seem a Herculean task, and at those interest rates, it is. The very thought scares the hell out of me. My wife has $7k from hair dressing school and that's bad enough.
So I think the solution here isn't to mock people for doing what they were told to do by going to college, damn the debt. The solution is to stop using laws and government money to subsidize this nonsense, and to change the way we talk about college.
There's a lot of truth in what you're saying. "Everyone" is pushed towards college. You didn't particularly excel in high school, skipped a lot, took the easiest classes possible, have no real direction ... of course you should go to college! A great deal of this is our increasingly liberal society. You just can't tell anyone that he or she CAN'T or SHOULDN'T aim high, live the dream ... even when it just isn't sensible. So everyone is pushed in this direction, even when it's clearly not the right choice.
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Our city offers the first year of community college free for our graduates. It's an amazing deal, especially since our community college will GE certify students who complete X courses and guarantee admission into our local state college.
So what do our college advisors on campus do? Completely ignore this fantastic deal, demonize community colleges as for "losers", talk up how any dream college is possible with loans, and never talk about things like interest or how long it will take to pay back loans.
I talk about my wonderful community college experiences all the time to try and balance things out, but it's no surprise that so many poor students (most of my students have parents with no college experience) and their parents get roped in by this glamorous loan-funded life that they're peddled.
I remember one student who lost her acceptance to an expensive four-year college because she got a D in a required class second semester of senior year. She was a good kid who'd gotten burnt out at the end. Anyway, her grade meant she'd have to go to (gasp!) community college, and she came to me crying that her life was essentially over because no one ever graduates that goes to community college (this is something the college advisors teach, forgetting that people like me who go for enrichment and fun and have no plans to graduate -- again -- skew the statistics down). She felt like she didn't even deserve to walk at graduation. I told her that D was the best thing that had ever happened to her, showed her the financial numbers comparing the community to state college path vs her loan-funded private college path and also pointed out that a lot of the adjunct professors at the expensive schools also teach at our community college, but in smaller classes where you can actually get help.
She's doing just fine. :)
On another note:
I took out a small loan while I was student teaching which I paid back immediately upon becoming employed, and before I could even get the loan paperwork from the college, I had to attend a (free) six-hour college financial literacy class. I didn't need it, but most of the people there were freshmen and their parents and had no idea the difference between subsidized and unsubsidized loans or how to get scholarships or work study. The class was an incredible service to them. Do public colleges not practice this anymore?
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The university I graduated from has a financial workshop for anyone that wants to come visit.
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Our city offers the first year of community college free for our graduates. It's an amazing deal, especially since our community college will GE certify students who complete X courses and guarantee admission into our local state college.
So what do our college advisors on campus do? Completely ignore this fantastic deal, demonize community colleges as for "losers", talk up how any dream college is possible with loans, and never talk about things like interest or how long it will take to pay back loans.
I talk about my wonderful community college experiences all the time to try and balance things out, but it's no surprise that so many poor students (most of my students have parents with no college experience) and their parents get roped in by this glamorous loan-funded life that they're peddled.
I remember one student who lost her acceptance to an expensive four-year college because she got a D in a required class second semester of senior year. She was a good kid who'd gotten burnt out at the end. Anyway, her grade meant she'd have to go to (gasp!) community college, and she came to me crying that her life was essentially over because no one ever graduates that goes to community college (this is something the college advisors teach, forgetting that people like me who go for enrichment and fun and have no plans to graduate -- again -- skew the statistics down). She felt like she didn't even deserve to walk at graduation. I told her that D was the best thing that had ever happened to her, showed her the financial numbers comparing the community to state college path vs her loan-funded private college path and also pointed out that a lot of the adjunct professors at the expensive schools also teach at our community college, but in smaller classes where you can actually get help.
She's doing just fine. :)
On another note:
I took out a small loan while I was student teaching which I paid back immediately upon becoming employed, and before I could even get the loan paperwork from the college, I had to attend a (free) six-hour college financial literacy class. I didn't need it, but most of the people there were freshmen and their parents and had no idea the difference between subsidized and unsubsidized loans or how to get scholarships or work study. The class was an incredible service to them. Do public colleges not practice this anymore?
When you say "college advisors on campus", do you mean people who come to high schools to speak to students, or do you mean the school career and guidance counselors? It seems to me that anyone employed by the school could be set straight, and invitees who mock or put down community college need not be invited back.
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Both. And there has been some setting straight, but we high schools are ranked in part by how many 4-year colleges our students get into which causes quite a conflict of interest for some.
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Around here the people who spread the idea that community college is for losers ... are the students themselves. Our guidance counselors are quite even-handed in discussing 4-year schools vs. community college.
However, my two kids made different choices: One went straight to university, while the other opted to begin at community college. Both were honors students in high school, and both made the right choice for themselves after high school. I'll say this: For the student who is emotionally and academically ready, going straight to university is the better option:
- My kid who went straight to university was surrounded by a better peer group, had more options in terms of coursework and extra-curriculars and on-campus jobs, had much more support from the university in terms of transitioning from high school to college, and has had a much easier time planning her schedule. She made good choices, graduated on time with honors, and is now working in her field.
- In contrast, the kid who went to community college has encountered more trouble with administration (no help with planning coursework, even when I went with her to try to get help ... awful time registering the first time, and it was all because they hadn't checked her high school coursework), has been surrounded with more slackards who lasted only a semester, and in spite of having done everything right at the community college, she'll need 5 semesters at the university because of coursework sequencing. Do I regret her choice? No. She wasn't ready to leave home, and this was her best option, but it isn't "equal" to the first two years at a university.
What do I say to my students? I tell them the truth: Multiple paths to success exist, and you need to pick the right one -- all paths have pros and cons, and you need to learn the truth about those rewards and costs. That means considering your academic and emotional readiness, and one aspect of the big picture is being realistic about your finances.
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I know a couple that asked for investment advice about 5 years ago. The women was a philosophy major and after they asked what a mutual fund was asked about getting her masters in philosophy. I almost had to excuse myself, combined the couple had about $75k in student loans and were earning about $30k. They also planned to have a baby in the next year.
I've started seeing this sort of thing a lot and the thought process of the people involved confuses me in a way that is hard to fully convey.
But what really boggles the mind is that somehow it works out. I'm pretty sure that you can't exist cashflow and networth negative forever, but there aren't any consequences. Are they completely financing their lifestyle with low interest rates? Receiving government subsidies?
It seems like there is an alternative theory of personal finance where you can just buy whatever shit you want for thirty years.
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c) Public education at a large state university at my hometown is 3,000-3,500 a semester. Yes, you live at home, not the dorms.
Not everyone has this option. For example, where I grew up the nearest state school was 2 hours away. You had to move there to live there. No living at home option. Dorms were a requirement for the first year on campus and was not cheap.
Now, the state school is around ~8k for tuition and 10k for room and board and meal plan (again a requirement for freshmen).
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How soon does a person need to move into town to make it a "permanent" address?
I arrived in my university's town right after my enlistment in the military was complete and started the following semester - several months later.
Any time the school questioned my address, I told them this was my permanent address and nobody pressed the topic - so I did not need to live in the dorms, etc.
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How soon does a person need to move into town to make it a "permanent" address?
I arrived in my university's town right after my enlistment in the military was complete and started the following semester - several months later.
Any time the school questioned my address, I told them this was my permanent address and nobody pressed the topic - so I did not need to live in the dorms, etc.
Depends on the state. Sometimes a year. Some states - like Vermont, and the University of Vermont, are particularly hard.
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Not sure if this gem has been posted yet...
I took out $25000 of federal loans (some subsidized and some not) for a Master's degree in Education in 1993 so that I could continue to teach and at some point not have to have a second job to make ends meet. Silly me. I have paid back over $35000 and still owe $20000. I have paid off 3 cars, each around $25000, in that same time frame. Something is WRONG.
No SHIT SOMETHING IS WRONG. Your DUMB ASS has bought and paid for three new cars in the time frame since you've borrowed your student loans. Idiot!
LOL, that paragraph made my day. Classic idiot.
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This is the exact nonsense that a lot of debt forgiveness pushers do in their own lives and are just blind to how ridiculous they sound. Stop buying so many damn cars! I sold my functional 12 year old Honda to someone for $3k. There are literally hundreds of thousands of cars like that! I wonder how many of these idiots are in my neighborhood driving Audis and BMWs...
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This is the exact nonsense that a lot of debt forgiveness pushers do in their own lives and are just blind to how ridiculous they sound. Stop buying so many damn cars! I sold my functional 12 year old Honda to someone for $3k. There are literally hundreds of thousands of cars like that! I wonder how many of these idiots are in my neighborhood driving Audis and BMWs...
But but.... If they don't drive Audis and BMWs, how will they show the world they've succeeded with their expensive degrees? Are you asking them to drive a normal car?? What will society think? </Sarcasm>
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LOL!!!! : )
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Are these people even real? LOL!!!! Yea....keep shitting out babies and then wonder why you can't pay back the $$$$$ you borrowed.
I graduated in 2012 from Heald College. At the the time I had only 1 of my treasures (child of God) this year I have 4 Treasures the youngest turning 6 months this coming Saturday. I don't mind paying my student loans but as of now it's so not hard (So Speaking Life) because of the economy. Living in Hawaii doesn't help, but I should have studied more in high school or done more research for scholarships. The reason why I choose Heald College was because of the refresher courses promised after graduation. Now that heald has closed its doors in no longer have that option and I believe its not fair to us especially when we are applying for a job in our graduating field and want to refresh our minds before entering the field 😣 i don't mind paying some of my loans off BUT not the whole thing is what was promised is no longer available to me. Can any one help. This year they took our whole Fed tax for my student loans 6k+ of it and my debt is 46k+.
Mrs.Rivera February 28, 2017 Waianae
I'm a mother a 3 year old and a 2 month old child. Due to my 2 month old being a premature at birth I have to stay home and care for him. School will be a bit difficult to even end this debt I have. And my plan is to remain a house wife till my boys both go to school than finish off what I started at training school, doing online courses screwed me over. If only the debt were at least payed off half way or forgiven since it was the 1st time I borrowed a student loan but didn't seem to understand the results of it not until I decided not to continue doing online courses.
Margaret February 14, 2017
http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/
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Are these people even real? LOL!!!! Yea....keep shitting out babies and then wonder why you can't pay back the $$$$$ you borrowed.
I graduated in 2012 from Heald College. At the the time I had only 1 of my treasures (child of God) this year I have 4 Treasures the youngest turning 6 months this coming Saturday. I don't mind paying my student loans but as of now it's so not hard (So Speaking Life) because of the economy. Living in Hawaii doesn't help, but I should have studied more in high school or done more research for scholarships. The reason why I choose Heald College was because of the refresher courses promised after graduation. Now that heald has closed its doors in no longer have that option and I believe its not fair to us especially when we are applying for a job in our graduating field and want to refresh our minds before entering the field 😣 i don't mind paying some of my loans off BUT not the whole thing is what was promised is no longer available to me. Can any one help. This year they took our whole Fed tax for my student loans 6k+ of it and my debt is 46k+.
Mrs.Rivera February 28, 2017 Waianae
http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/
So I read this story, and had to look up "Heald College"
"Heald College was a regionally accredited for-profit, business–career college.
Due to findings by the Department of Education of misrepresented job placement rates at certain programs[4] of Heald College from July 2010–2015, the department has made students of these programs eligible to have their debts cancelled[5] if they fill out the Department's online attestation form,[6] or mail in a printable[7] attestation form."
So, 1) she chose a for-profit college (duh!), and then after graduation, 2) likely did not go to work in her field, but has 4 kids within 5 years of graduating. hmmm.... 3) who chooses for-profit college and student loans when their innate temperament is for a large family and like stay at home parenting for the first few years..?!?. and now 4) does not seem to know that they can get reduced loans if they fill our paperwork (depending on program, but I guess if she knew about this, she would have complained about how her program was excluded...).
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We've all met people like this - they are complainers who get themselves into jams b/c they do not regularly make use of logic.
Examples:
The car started making a noise so they drove it another five thousand miles and now the engine is ruined. How can that be?
Water started to drip in the second bedroom during really heavy rains so we caught it in a pan. And then they waited a year to call a roofer. Now the ceiling and roof decking is ruined. How can that be? (actually knew someone at a previous job who just closed that bedroom door and let that end of the house literally rot).
Their children kept repeatedly leaving the garden hose running for days on end next to the foundation and now a contractor reports some expensive repairs will be required. How can that be?
Real life example - a coworker reported how their grown son had problems finding a good job. Begin commiserating. A few weeks later they let it slip that he had been fired again from another job. Few weeks later more of the situation was shared. Son can get a job but can't hold it b/c their work ethic is lousy and they make far, far too many personal calls to parents.
Ah-ha! That is who is so frequently calling the coworker. Turns out son is calling to either complain about coworkers or ask for guidance from parents about their job. I met the guy once or twice. Nice guy. He just needed to be forced to think for himself. They had raised a 20 year old man-child. Nice people otherwise.
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I graduated in 2012 from Heald College. At the the time I had only 1 of my treasures (child of God)
Perhaps she deserves a break due to Immaculate Conception?
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We've all met people like this - they are complainers who get themselves into jams b/c they do not regularly make use of logic.
Examples:
The car started making a noise so they drove it another five thousand miles and now the engine is ruined. How can that be?
Water started to drip in the second bedroom during really heavy rains so we caught it in a pan. And then they waited a year to call a roofer. Now the ceiling and roof decking is ruined. How can that be? (actually knew someone at a previous job who just closed that bedroom door and let that end of the house literally rot).
Their children kept repeatedly leaving the garden hose running for days on end next to the foundation and now a contractor reports some expensive repairs will be required. How can that be?
Real life example - a coworker reported how their grown son had problems finding a good job. Begin commiserating. A few weeks later they let it slip that he had been fired again from another job. Few weeks later more of the situation was shared. Son can get a job but can't hold it b/c their work ethic is lousy and they make far, far too many personal calls to parents.
Ah-ha! That is who is so frequently calling the coworker. Turns out son is calling to either complain about coworkers or ask for guidance from parents about their job. I met the guy once or twice. Nice guy. He just needed to be forced to think for himself. They had raised a 20 year old man-child. Nice people otherwise.
LOL!!!
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Here is a few new ones. The first one thinks she shouldnt have to pay her loans because she didnt get pregnant as a teen and also wants to do some traveling now.
"I am a single teacher with a masters degree (I couldn't find a job without one) who makes $37,000 a year. I have over $60,000 in student debt mixed between federal loans, private, and parent plus. The amount of money I pay every month is over $800.00 and goes up every year. I will never be able to afford a house (or renting anything nicer than a grungy apartment), a car newer than 10 years old, or something as extravagant as traveling. I spend my summers working a second job and am considering leaving teaching because I cannot afford to live like this... but I LOVE teaching.
I did everything "right" growing up. I stayed out of trouble, I earned good grades, I went to college, I didn't get pregnant, and I went into a career that is considered public service. Yet I feel constantly beaten down and punished. I now tell my students to not attend college unless it's being paid for by something other than loans. I also tell them that earning a degree does not help acquire a better paying job.
Something needs to be done to help past, present, and future students. I need help and know many others that need help paying off their students loans. Where is my bail out? Where is my welfare program? Where is my aid? I cannot afford to pay/wait for 120 loan payments for teacher loan forgiveness, especially since it doesn't apply to my private (navient) or parent plus loans."
Author *Brittany April 26, 2017
This guy owes $700,000 for dental school but only will pay the minimum each month.
"I Graduated undergrad with about 11k in student loans. Got accepted to NYU College of dentistry and ended up with another 500K in debt. Fast forward a few years, being under IBR, I am now over 700K in debt. Pretty much give up and going to stick to minimum payments.
Tim April 11, 2017 Mansfield" http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/
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Sofa King...
I read a few more, then this one stood out. Crap. This really is a problem... many people would fall into this, and unless asked to resign something when the loans are sold, I would think that my original agreement stood.
I am finishing my ninth year as a middle and high school English teacher this spring. The Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program forgives federal loans after 10 years of payment. I currently owe $44,000 in loans eligible for PSLF. I have not missed payments. However, at the end of this school year the PSLF program will only recognize 2 years worth of payments, meaning that I will still be another 8 years away from having my loans forgiven. I went to a state school, SUNY Potsdam, for both my undergraduate and master's degrees. I have worked for two low income public schools in the North Country. I currently teach at one of the poorest districts in the poorest county in New York State.
I am aware of the requirements for PSLF. However, due to many factors, I am still only considered to have made 2 years' worth of payments. When companies have bought and sold my debt throughout the years, I was automatically re-entered into a standard repayment plan without being informed of the change. Those payments, though higher than what is required for PSLF, are not eligible for this forgiveness program. There have been instances where this change in my requested payment plan went unnoticed by me for many months. I was under the impression that, when a new company took over my debt, nothing about my payment plan was to change. Unfortunately, the companies that have held my debt did not uphold that, and I have been punished for it. Furthermore, the current company that holds my debt, FedLoan Servicing, has told me they cannot track my debt to previous owners. In other words, all of the qualifying payments I did make to other loan holders are not being counted for me. I have read and checked and educated myself about PSLF for years. I check back to the government publications about it regularly to make sure I am on track. It was not until a few weeks ago, again, 9 years into my loan payments, that I discovered any payment made when a payment is not 'due' does not count.
...more Author *Kayla April 3, 2017 Potsdam
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Sofa King...
I read a few more, then this one stood out. Crap. This really is a problem... many people would fall into this, and unless asked to resign something when the loans are sold, I would think that my original agreement stood.
I am finishing my ninth year as a middle and high school English teacher this spring. The Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program forgives federal loans after 10 years of payment. I currently owe $44,000 in loans eligible for PSLF. I have not missed payments. However, at the end of this school year the PSLF program will only recognize 2 years worth of payments, meaning that I will still be another 8 years away from having my loans forgiven. I went to a state school, SUNY Potsdam, for both my undergraduate and master's degrees. I have worked for two low income public schools in the North Country. I currently teach at one of the poorest districts in the poorest county in New York State.
I am aware of the requirements for PSLF. However, due to many factors, I am still only considered to have made 2 years' worth of payments. When companies have bought and sold my debt throughout the years, I was automatically re-entered into a standard repayment plan without being informed of the change. Those payments, though higher than what is required for PSLF, are not eligible for this forgiveness program. There have been instances where this change in my requested payment plan went unnoticed by me for many months. I was under the impression that, when a new company took over my debt, nothing about my payment plan was to change. Unfortunately, the companies that have held my debt did not uphold that, and I have been punished for it. Furthermore, the current company that holds my debt, FedLoan Servicing, has told me they cannot track my debt to previous owners. In other words, all of the qualifying payments I did make to other loan holders are not being counted for me. I have read and checked and educated myself about PSLF for years. I check back to the government publications about it regularly to make sure I am on track. It was not until a few weeks ago, again, 9 years into my loan payments, that I discovered any payment made when a payment is not 'due' does not count.
...more Author *Kayla April 3, 2017 Potsdam
Things like this irk me. I had one loan change hands six times, and as part of the hand-changing had a few "late payments" that happened because old company didn't pass my money along to new company with the loan details itself. Nightmare of contesting and banking records to prove I paid! I feel like there should be more accountability for at LEAST federally backed loans. If I loaned out money, you can be sure I would know where the borrower is with their repayments. One would think that the Feds would feel the same way, what will budget balance issues and such.
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Oh gosh - what a terrible situation. I'd be mad as HELL. I'd be calling my congressman/lady and talking to the top level people about this rather than the basic operators.
Call Elizabeth Warren or Bernie. Or the media. Maybe one of them could connect them to a satisfactory solution.
DW and I worked our hindends off to pay off her master's necessary to advance in her career. Drove old cars, no vacations, etc.
I'm not sure what we would do in a HCOL area and a single income (no spouse to share the cost of the loans).
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Sofa King...
I read a few more, then this one stood out. Crap. This really is a problem... many people would fall into this, and unless asked to resign something when the loans are sold, I would think that my original agreement stood.
It has been pretty well known now for a long time through T.V. news and internet news reports how these loans are screwed up for many people who have them yet millions of people every year agree to the terms and still sign up and take out more money than they can afford to ever pay back for meaningless degrees. And then they are surprised when the bill comes. I do think that something should be done but loan forgiveness is not the answer. The banks were bailed out so maybe help these idiots by at least lowering all loans to 1% interest and give some a chance to get out from under them. The banks will still make $$$ and a big part of society can move on with their lives. But people need to start putting a lot more thought into what they sign their names to and start going to colleges they can afford.
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We've all met people like this - they are complainers who get themselves into jams b/c they do not regularly make use of logic.
Examples:
The car started making a noise so they drove it another five thousand miles and now the engine is ruined. How can that be?
Water started to drip in the second bedroom during really heavy rains so we caught it in a pan. And then they waited a year to call a roofer. Now the ceiling and roof decking is ruined. How can that be? (actually knew someone at a previous job who just closed that bedroom door and let that end of the house literally rot).
Their children kept repeatedly leaving the garden hose running for days on end next to the foundation and now a contractor reports some expensive repairs will be required. How can that be?
Real life example - a coworker reported how their grown son had problems finding a good job. Begin commiserating. A few weeks later they let it slip that he had been fired again from another job. Few weeks later more of the situation was shared. Son can get a job but can't hold it b/c their work ethic is lousy and they make far, far too many personal calls to parents.
Ah-ha! That is who is so frequently calling the coworker. Turns out son is calling to either complain about coworkers or ask for guidance from parents about their job. I met the guy once or twice. Nice guy. He just needed to be forced to think for himself. They had raised a 20 year old man-child. Nice people otherwise.
LOL!!!
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Ok, I have to defend the student loans here. I feel pretty lucky that I'm not drowning and frankly that's because my parents had their shit together.
I had no concept that I might not be able to pay back my loan. Zero. I think for a lot of high schoolers that are making this decision that was a common thought. If you follow the rules and finish high school with good grades and finish colleges with good grades then you get a job and pay back the loans.
I didn't know that sometimes you don't get a job
I didn't know your major mattered (beyond don't be in Art)
I didn't know that school costs more now than it did when my parents went to college
I didn't know that going to trade school or getting a job right out of high school was a choice
I worked full time during the summers but not at all during the year so I could focus on my education. It didn't occur to me that I would need that money for some gap time between college and getting a job. No one told me and I'd never had to worry about money in my life. Does that make me stupid? I know better now because I live out in the world and have the experience to tell me otherwise. I didn't have experience when I made the decision to take a loan and no one with experience was talking in a meaningful way.
Now, I survived because I happened to find an interest in STEM and succeeded in finding a job during the recession. I am not a common outcome. Lots of my friends went back to school for a Masters when they couldn't find a job and it was go back to school or the loans start collecting. They were buying time. I can understand that impulse.
Life is hard and people are not preparing high school students to make these decisions. So yeah, they feel like they have been lied to or are being punished because of the results.
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For those with loans that have been sold and the terms changed.
Turn the tables around.
MAKE the loan servicing company PROVE you owe the money they claim and that they have accurately accounted for all payments to all parties prior to them being involved. Make them prove the terms they are operating your loan under are the same as the terms you signed.
That means they need to track down all the various parties and get copies of all the documents.
Until they do so, they haven't proven you owe the money so don't pay them.
Give them a few month's notice to be nice about it.
Might want to check with a lawyer or student loan right's advocate first...
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I admit i feel a little sorry for #5.
I do too. How does a $62k loan turn into $200k?! That's insane!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Turn the tables around.
MAKE the loan servicing company PROVE you owe the money they claim and that they have accurately accounted for all payments to all parties prior to them being involved. Make them prove the terms they are operating your loan under are the same as the terms you signed.
While I actually love this in theory (sticking it to the man is always fun!), the banks and creditors have armies of lawyers who would love to make an example out of you - definitely make sure to check with a lawyer before jumping into this one.
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Turn the tables around.
MAKE the loan servicing company PROVE you owe the money they claim and that they have accurately accounted for all payments to all parties prior to them being involved. Make them prove the terms they are operating your loan under are the same as the terms you signed.
While I actually love this in theory (sticking it to the man is always fun!), the banks and creditors have armies of lawyers who would love to make an example out of you - definitely make sure to check with a lawyer before jumping into this one.
Absolutely check with an attorney.
Just recognize that in the big recession, it turned out that some organizations could not actually produce the necessary documents once they got challenged. I remember reading that some people got their mortgages eliminated because the final party who owned the loan had neglected to get all the necessary documents at loan purchase time. Some of the intermediate loan owners were no longer in business and could not supply the missing documents.
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Many new interesting stories! : )
Wow, lots of sympathy from me based on predatory lending.
Kind of horrible to poke fun when there's obviously predatory lending involved.
Caveat Emptor.
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Here is a few new ones. The first one thinks she shouldnt have to pay her loans because she didnt get pregnant as a teen and also wants to do some traveling now.
"I am a single teacher with a masters degree (I couldn't find a job without one) who makes $37,000 a year. I have over $60,000 in student debt mixed between federal loans, private, and parent plus. The amount of money I pay every month is over $800.00 and goes up every year. I will never be able to afford a house (or renting anything nicer than a grungy apartment), a car newer than 10 years old, or something as extravagant as traveling. I spend my summers working a second job and am considering leaving teaching because I cannot afford to live like this... but I LOVE teaching.
I did everything "right" growing up. I stayed out of trouble, I earned good grades, I went to college, I didn't get pregnant, and I went into a career that is considered public service. Yet I feel constantly beaten down and punished. I now tell my students to not attend college unless it's being paid for by something other than loans. I also tell them that earning a degree does not help acquire a better paying job.
Something needs to be done to help past, present, and future students. I need help and know many others that need help paying off their students loans. Where is my bail out? Where is my welfare program? Where is my aid? I cannot afford to pay/wait for 120 loan payments for teacher loan forgiveness, especially since it doesn't apply to my private (navient) or parent plus loans."
Author *Brittany April 26, 2017
I think your summary is unfair with this one. Her situation is honestly difficult and she's not wishing for anything extravagant, just to make decisions for her own life which everyone deserves to make. I feel sorry for people who won't get to enjoy their lives due to working just to earn the "right" to survive.
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I think your summary is unfair with this one. Her situation is honestly difficult and she's not wishing for anything extravagant, just to make decisions for her own life.
She made the decision to take out a school loan. People need to live with the consequences of the decision/choices they make. She had no problem TAKING the $$$$ I bet.
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I think your summary is unfair with this one. Her situation is honestly difficult and she's not wishing for anything extravagant, just to make decisions for her own life.
She made the decision to take out a school loan. People need to live with the consequences of the decision/choices they make. She had no problem TAKING the $$$$ I bet.
Consequences. That's a bit tricky, though, isn't it? She probably consulted several different authorities: her parents; guidance counselor, banking officials, teachers. They all would have told her that "investing in an education" is the best thing she could do; that this was a wise loan to take. The same people from whom she needed to ask permission to go pee told her to make this move.
At age 17, everyone pushed her to take that loan. And now we say to her, "What were you thinking? There are consequences!"
I find that a bit disingenuous.
Toque.
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Y'know, a lot of these people are morons. They're not as smart as they think they are, and that (and a few other factors) have led them to a place in life where they are buried in debt.
But you? Gleefully laughing at their misery? Pointing and laughing at the misfortune of others, some of which isn't their fault? You're a piece of a shit, and that's a fuckton worse than being dumb.
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I am finishing my ninth year as a middle and high school English teacher this spring. The Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program forgives federal loans after 10 years of payment. I currently owe $44,000 in loans eligible for PSLF. I have not missed payments. However, at the end of this school year the PSLF program will only recognize 2 years worth of payments, meaning that I will still be another 8 years away from having my loans forgiven. I went to a state school, SUNY Potsdam, for both my undergraduate and master's degrees. I have worked for two low income public schools in the North Country. I currently teach at one of the poorest districts in the poorest county in New York State.
I am aware of the requirements for PSLF. However, due to many factors, I am still only considered to have made 2 years' worth of payments. When companies have bought and sold my debt throughout the years, I was automatically re-entered into a standard repayment plan without being informed of the change. Those payments, though higher than what is required for PSLF, are not eligible for this forgiveness program. There have been instances where this change in my requested payment plan went unnoticed by me for many months. I was under the impression that, when a new company took over my debt, nothing about my payment plan was to change. Unfortunately, the companies that have held my debt did not uphold that, and I have been punished for it. Furthermore, the current company that holds my debt, FedLoan Servicing, has told me they cannot track my debt to previous owners. In other words, all of the qualifying payments I did make to other loan holders are not being counted for me. I have read and checked and educated myself about PSLF for years. I check back to the government publications about it regularly to make sure I am on track. It was not until a few weeks ago, again, 9 years into my loan payments, that I discovered any payment made when a payment is not 'due' does not count.
...more Author *Kayla April 3, 2017 Potsdam
I'd like to see more details on how this person got into this situation - what payments were made when.
The thing about standard-payment plan not qualifying for PSLF is simply not true - you need to be on an income-based plan at some point during repayment because if you just do the standard repayment plan, the loan is paid off in 10 years anyway, but any standard plan payments do count. Getting ahead on payments is a problem, so if you pay extra, it is important to make sure the excess is applied to principal and not future payments. Basically, if you're going to do PSLF, the simplest thing to do is make minimum payments on time, no more and no less. That approach also will ensure the largest "forgiveness" at the end of the 10 years.
https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service (https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service)
What I'm guessing happened is something like "got a tax refund - put it to student loans and now I don't have to pay until October!" is part of the story here. But that would indicate whoever did it did not know the rules.
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I think your summary is unfair with this one. Her situation is honestly difficult and she's not wishing for anything extravagant, just to make decisions for her own life.
She made the decision to take out a school loan. People need to live with the consequences of the decision/choices they make. She had no problem TAKING the $$$$ I bet.
Consequences. That's a bit tricky, though, isn't it? She probably consulted several different authorities: her parents; guidance counselor, banking officials, teachers. They all would have told her that "investing in an education" is the best thing she could do; that this was a wise loan to take. The same people from whom she needed to ask permission to go pee told her to make this move.
At age 17, everyone pushed her to take that loan. And now we say to her, "What were you thinking? There are consequences!"
I find that a bit disingenuous.
Toque.
Y'know, a lot of these people are morons. They're not as smart as they think they are, and that (and a few other factors) have led them to a place in life where they are buried in debt.
But you? Gleefully laughing at their misery? Pointing and laughing at the misfortune of others, some of which isn't their fault? You're a piece of a shit, and that's a fuckton worse than being dumb.
I wish there were an upvote button for posts like these.
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Y'know, a lot of these people are morons. They're not as smart as they think they are, and that (and a few other factors) have led them to a place in life where they are buried in debt.
But you? Gleefully laughing at their misery? Pointing and laughing at the misfortune of others, some of which isn't their fault? You're a piece of a shit, and that's a fuckton worse than being dumb.
That's what this whole section of this board is you asswipe. Blow me.
MOD EDIT: Not okay. Read the forum rules.
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Consequences. That's a bit tricky, though, isn't it? She probably consulted several different authorities: her parents; guidance counselor, banking officials, teachers. They all would have told her that "investing in an education" is the best thing she could do; that this was a wise loan to take. The same people from whom she needed to ask permission to go pee told her to make this move.
At age 17, everyone pushed her to take that loan. And now we say to her, "What were you thinking? There are consequences!"
I find that a bit disingenuous.
Toque.
MANY of these people were adults when they took out these loans. And what about all of these people STILL taking out these loans every day? Did they not hear the news that these loans suck? I'm sure they did yet they keep agreeing to the terms and taking the $$$$ only to cry when it's time to pay it back.
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Y'know, a lot of these people are morons. They're not as smart as they think they are, and that (and a few other factors) have led them to a place in life where they are buried in debt.
But you? Gleefully laughing at their misery? Pointing and laughing at the misfortune of others, some of which isn't their fault? You're a piece of a shit, and that's a fuckton worse than being dumb.
yup
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Y'know, a lot of these people are morons. They're not as smart as they think they are, and that (and a few other factors) have led them to a place in life where they are buried in debt.
But you? Gleefully laughing at their misery? Pointing and laughing at the misfortune of others, some of which isn't their fault? You're a piece of a shit, and that's a fuckton worse than being dumb.
That's what this whole section of this board is you asswipe. Blow me.
Calling people a piece of shit or an asswipe is not acceptable on this forum. Don't be a jerk. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. I'm sure you can find a way to have a constructive conversation about whether or not we should feel sorry for these people.
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I concur. I was only responding to asswipe. I do not normally speak this was on this board.
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I concur. I was only responding to asswipe. I do not normally speak this was on this board.
As someone who frequently says inflammatory things (and who gets justifiably flamed as a result) I can relate. If my skin were any thicker I'd have to find a photo of an ankylosaurus or a turtle instead of a rubber duck.
I try not to roast individuals, though, so much as entire categories of people who are collectively engaged in activities I believe to be stupid. Generally my posts aren't racist so much as classist, sexist, and anti-idiot (which works out to the same thing once you realize that people do stupid things in large groups).
How it tends to work is like this: if you say "people who do X are stupid asswipes" you'll get a free pass. If you say to someone: "you are an asswipe", or if you say that *about* a particular individual, the moderators will come down like a ton of lead.
A few months ago, the moderators straightened me out when I impugned the sexual virtue of a publicly traded bank. (Someone, apparently, has located said virtue. Lord Baphomet only knows how.)
I used some rather colorful language to describe the bank; I think my exact phrase was "juicy whore". I still stand by my statement, because the bank's loose business standards are legendary enough to draw some class action suits. The bank in question happens to offer favorable business terms for a credit card that open it up to judicious exploitation by Mustachians who wish to take advantage of them. So when that particular bank pulls a train, I don't mean that it's lending money to Amtrak. In any case I won't mention the name of the bank lest its corporate reputation be tarnished by something besides its own conduct and business standards, which in my opinion were more than sufficient to justify the label.
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My involvement with National City bank was long ago, and--even though it ended badly--I hold no ill will against them. We might even be able to be in the same room again, these days.
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I posted my story. I wonder if it will get published.
I joined the military at 18 and was married at 19. My wife was going to school to get a teaching degree. We both worked two jobs and she finished school with $5,000 of debt.
After the military I started school. I spent my first year at community college. During this time my wife started teaching and I worked part time. We paid for this tuition in cash.
I then started to study engineering at University and used by GI bill to cover tuition, fees, books, and housing stipend. I graduated in just under three years. I graduated without debt.
I took a job in my field at a company that would be for my graduate school. I had to wait one year to start. I took it slow and graduated with an MBA in three years.
We now have zero debt, two children, and half a million in the bank. This was primarily due to hard work, low expenses, and choosing fields that have demand.
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I posted my story. I wonder if it will get published.
I joined the military at 18 and was married at 19. My wife was going to school to get a teaching degree. We both worked two jobs and she finished school with $5,000 of debt.
After the military I started school. I spent my first year at community college. During this time my wife started teaching and I worked part time. We paid for this tuition in cash.
I then started to study engineering at University and used by GI bill to cover tuition, fees, books, and housing stipend. I graduated in just under three years. I graduated without debt.
I took a job in my field at a company that would be for my graduate school. I had to wait one year to start. I took it slow and graduated with an MBA in three years.
We now have zero debt, two children, and half a million in the bank. This was primarily due to hard work, low expenses, and choosing fields that have demand.
I like it!! Very refreshing to read. I wish they post too.
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I didn't even know the concept of interest when I signed for my student loans. I had never experienced paying interest or being paid interest. I didn't know the word. So there you go. 18 years old. I signed up for $70k in student loans without knowing what interest was, and had no one to teach me.
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I posted my story. I wonder if it will get published.
I joined the military at 18 and was married at 19. My wife was going to school to get a teaching degree. We both worked two jobs and she finished school with $5,000 of debt.
After the military I started school. I spent my first year at community college. During this time my wife started teaching and I worked part time. We paid for this tuition in cash.
I then started to study engineering at University and used by GI bill to cover tuition, fees, books, and housing stipend. I graduated in just under three years. I graduated without debt.
I took a job in my field at a company that would be for my graduate school. I had to wait one year to start. I took it slow and graduated with an MBA in three years.
We now have zero debt, two children, and half a million in the bank. This was primarily due to hard work, low expenses, and choosing fields that have demand.
I like it!! Very refreshing to read. I wish they post too.
Engineering + MBA + military experience = freaking lucrative depending on your discipline. Very clever and inspiring choice of options.