Author Topic: Guess I won't retire then?  (Read 3613 times)

savetheeffort

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Guess I won't retire then?
« on: October 14, 2019, 08:50:22 PM »
When noting a trend of millenials using FIRE to retire at 30...

“Saving is a great value, especially for younger people," Capitalist Pig Founder Jonathan Hoenig said. “That should be encouraged, but retiring is ludicrous, certainly at that young [of an] age. Look, working is a value. Productivity is a value. It's a spiritual value.”

[But wait there's more...]

“I think this strategy [FIRE] won't work because, in the past, from 2009 to 2012 — great period to invest in, risky stocks going forward — you can't really make as much of a gain."
https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/millennials-fire-saving-retirement

Guess I'll just keep working.

ysette9

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2019, 08:51:35 PM »
Or we will retire en masse and prove them wrong. :)

Maenad

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2019, 05:10:22 AM »
I'm going to put on my Minnesota-passive-aggressive hat for a few seconds: Well, that's a very... American attitude.

OK, hat's off: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I can see an argument being made for each of us having a certain responsibility to contribute to society, given that we are a social animal (granted with a wide degree of variation). However, a spiritual value in sitting in a cubicle punching away at a computer? Oh, that's rich.

This is one way you can tell that we're not even speaking the same language as these people. They think somehow that a person who is driven and disciplined enough to achieve FI in their 30s is then going to sit around eating junk food and watching YouTube all day? All they'd have to do would be to spend an hour lurking here, er.org, or Reddit, and they'd see differently. But that would involve changing one's preconceptions, and we can't have that.

Malkynn

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2019, 06:02:34 AM »
I'm going to put on my Minnesota-passive-aggressive hat for a few seconds: Well, that's a very... American attitude.

OK, hat's off: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I can see an argument being made for each of us having a certain responsibility to contribute to society, given that we are a social animal (granted with a wide degree of variation). However, a spiritual value in sitting in a cubicle punching away at a computer? Oh, that's rich.

This is one way you can tell that we're not even speaking the same language as these people. They think somehow that a person who is driven and disciplined enough to achieve FI in their 30s is then going to sit around eating junk food and watching YouTube all day? All they'd have to do would be to spend an hour lurking here, er.org, or Reddit, and they'd see differently. But that would involve changing one's preconceptions, and we can't have that.

Yeah, I love the absurd notion that people working long hours in shitty jobs doing long commutes and coming home to their families all stressed out with no energy for wellness or connection are somehow living more meaningful lives.

Are you fucking kidding me?

I would love to see what great good that unhealthy and miserable people are contributing to society...I'll wait...

Pfft, please. Some very early retirees dump loads of benefit into the world just by coming here and posting in their journals about what it's like to actually do it.

Also, the moment I see the age of 30 in an article criticizing the FIRE movement, I know the author is a moron who knows nothing about the community.

No one who gets a lot of life satisfaction from their career retires at 30. When I see ultra young retirees, my first thought is that they were very smart to get out so early because it obviously wasn't what they wanted from life.

Someone who enjoys their career saying that no one should retire at 30 is like someone who is happily married saying that no one should get divorced in the first 5 years because marriage is so satisfying.

Pure nonsense.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2019, 06:15:15 AM »
But when I stop working completely, I expect to be met by some judgmental views that one has to work to contribute to society (by paying income tax I suppose).
Although so far, we have announced at work and on facebook that were are going to take a sabbatical in 2020 and so far we have only gotten positive feedback. Everyone understands that concept.

When it comes to contributing to society by working: that can be put in a whole different perspective if we look at many jobs as bullshit jobs. There are quite a lot of jobs that don't really contribute to something useful in general. But we may guess that the workers pay taxes. Retirees also contribute by paying taxes (VAT, wealth, property etc).

DadJokes

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2019, 06:54:17 AM »
But when I stop working completely, I expect to be met by some judgmental views that one has to work to contribute to society (by paying income tax I suppose).
Although so far, we have announced at work and on facebook that were are going to take a sabbatical in 2020 and so far we have only gotten positive feedback. Everyone understands that concept.

When it comes to contributing to society by working: that can be put in a whole different perspective if we look at many jobs as bullshit jobs. There are quite a lot of jobs that don't really contribute to something useful in general. But we may guess that the workers pay taxes. Retirees also contribute by paying taxes (VAT, wealth, property etc).

When I've shared my plans with others, I've yet to hear someone say anything about not contributing to society. They seem more worried about relying on the stock market for that long.

I think the "contribute to society" schtick is a pretty fringe opinion.

Malkynn

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2019, 07:42:25 AM »
But when I stop working completely, I expect to be met by some judgmental views that one has to work to contribute to society (by paying income tax I suppose).
Although so far, we have announced at work and on facebook that were are going to take a sabbatical in 2020 and so far we have only gotten positive feedback. Everyone understands that concept.

When it comes to contributing to society by working: that can be put in a whole different perspective if we look at many jobs as bullshit jobs. There are quite a lot of jobs that don't really contribute to something useful in general. But we may guess that the workers pay taxes. Retirees also contribute by paying taxes (VAT, wealth, property etc).

When I've shared my plans with others, I've yet to hear someone say anything about not contributing to society. They seem more worried about relying on the stock market for that long.

I think the "contribute to society" schtick is a pretty fringe opinion.

Might be more common in Norway

Travis

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2019, 06:40:57 PM »
But when I stop working completely, I expect to be met by some judgmental views that one has to work to contribute to society (by paying income tax I suppose).
Although so far, we have announced at work and on facebook that were are going to take a sabbatical in 2020 and so far we have only gotten positive feedback. Everyone understands that concept.

When it comes to contributing to society by working: that can be put in a whole different perspective if we look at many jobs as bullshit jobs. There are quite a lot of jobs that don't really contribute to something useful in general. But we may guess that the workers pay taxes. Retirees also contribute by paying taxes (VAT, wealth, property etc).

When I've shared my plans with others, I've yet to hear someone say anything about not contributing to society. They seem more worried about relying on the stock market for that long.

I think the "contribute to society" schtick is a pretty fringe opinion.

My answer is always "Is unemployment at 0%? No. Is the working-age population growing? Yes. There will be somebody who will replace me without society even noticing."

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2019, 08:06:22 PM »
But when I stop working completely, I expect to be met by some judgmental views that one has to work to contribute to society (by paying income tax I suppose).
Although so far, we have announced at work and on facebook that were are going to take a sabbatical in 2020 and so far we have only gotten positive feedback. Everyone understands that concept.

When it comes to contributing to society by working: that can be put in a whole different perspective if we look at many jobs as bullshit jobs. There are quite a lot of jobs that don't really contribute to something useful in general. But we may guess that the workers pay taxes. Retirees also contribute by paying taxes (VAT, wealth, property etc).

Just by self-funding your own retirement through savings, while still paying taxes on consumption and passive income, you are contributing to society more than the majority of people.

spartana

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2019, 08:13:59 PM »
But when I stop working completely, I expect to be met by some judgmental views that one has to work to contribute to society (by paying income tax I suppose).
Although so far, we have announced at work and on facebook that were are going to take a sabbatical in 2020 and so far we have only gotten positive feedback. Everyone understands that concept.

When it comes to contributing to society by working: that can be put in a whole different perspective if we look at many jobs as bullshit jobs. There are quite a lot of jobs that don't really contribute to something useful in general. But we may guess that the workers pay taxes. Retirees also contribute by paying taxes (VAT, wealth, property etc).

Just by self-funding your own retirement through savings, while still paying taxes on consumption and passive income, you are contributing to society more than the majority of people.
Unless you are low income enough that you don't pay taxes on passive income and you rarely buy stuff. Of course there are lots of ways to contribute to society once retired beyond paying taxes. But apparently I shouldn't retire, apparently no one should, so what do I know ;)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 08:16:11 PM by spartana »

Hula Hoop

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2019, 08:43:31 PM »
What jumps out at me is the value placed on paid work in articles like this and the lack of respect for the unpaid work traditionally done mainly be women which also contributes a great deal to society.  I know several stay at home parents who contribute a huge amount - by raising their kids and doing unpaid domestic and organizational work but also by doing things like volunteering at school and volunteering in other roles.  As a working parent, I rely on these parents to keep things running also for me and my kids.  If I manage to RE I hope to do a lot more of this kind of work.  It's frankly kind of offensive that this author equates contributing to society with engaging in paid work outside the home.

SwordGuy

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2019, 10:17:15 PM »
The purpose behind corporate sponsored propaganda to convince people to work when they don't have to is for two reasons:

1) Frugal people spend less than non-frugal people.  They want you to spend all your money and be dependent on your job.

2) They can't exploit your labor for profit if you won't work for them.

Note how #1 leads to employees who live paycheck to paycheck and can't push back on unreasonable employer demands which increase the ability of them to exploit labor.



 

Just Joe

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2019, 07:17:14 AM »
They need people to consume medical treatments for stress and heart problems. They need people to eat out and grab lots of carry out food on the way home. They need people to wear out cars and tires. Just an extension of Bush's WH imploring people to go out and spend money after 9/11. Our economy can be really fragile. Apparently.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 08:45:47 AM by Just Joe »

mizzourah2006

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2019, 07:24:56 AM »
I think this is where the definition of "retirement" becomes important. In the FIRE world retirement means retiring from your main career, or your full-time career. To most people retirement means sit at home and watch daytime TV, go golfing every once in a while, and maybe volunteer at your local church once a week. You know like your 75-year-old grandparents. I think to most in their 30s that would be pretty unfulfilling, especially for someone that was driven enough to be able to retire by 30 or 35. Heck within the FIRE movement I've seen stay at home parents consider themselves FIRED...I think raising children at home can be a valuable use of time and energy and I think you'd be hard pressed to sell that as being "retired" to the millions of stay at home parents around the country.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 07:59:37 AM by mizzourah2006 »

Malkynn

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2019, 07:57:32 AM »
I actually think the word "retired" is of little utility and not really worth all that much in a world where people regularly change jobs and careers and where part time work well into senior years is commonplace. Outside of the FI community, no one really cares how anyone defines retirement.

Also, this whole fixation on career and meaning just smacks of serious ageism. Nobody flinches at someone in their late 50s or early 60s retiring. A lot of people at that age are in their prime of life AND in their prime earning years, and yet we don't see condescending bullshit telling them not to retire.

So what if someone retires in their 30s, that's only 20 years difference. The range of age that people live to is much broader than that, so when someone dies will have far more impact on how many years they spend retired than how early they retire. When you think of it that way, all of this fuss seems pretty silly...unless people are just discounting the value of years of life as a senior...which they do, all the time.

This whole fixation on not retiring early somehow puts this unfair premium on those mid-life decades, as if they're somehow what defines someone's life, purpose, and societal value.

After that age?
Oh fuck off, no one cares what you do, just try not to drive too slow you old fucks.

It's all just so absurd.



Linea_Norway

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2019, 02:56:14 AM »
I actually think the word "retired" is of little utility and not really worth all that much in a world where people regularly change jobs and careers and where part time work well into senior years is commonplace. Outside of the FI community, no one really cares how anyone defines retirement.

Also, this whole fixation on career and meaning just smacks of serious ageism. Nobody flinches at someone in their late 50s or early 60s retiring. A lot of people at that age are in their prime of life AND in their prime earning years, and yet we don't see condescending bullshit telling them not to retire.

So what if someone retires in their 30s, that's only 20 years difference. The range of age that people live to is much broader than that, so when someone dies will have far more impact on how many years they spend retired than how early they retire. When you think of it that way, all of this fuss seems pretty silly...unless people are just discounting the value of years of life as a senior...which they do, all the time.

This whole fixation on not retiring early somehow puts this unfair premium on those mid-life decades, as if they're somehow what defines someone's life, purpose, and societal value.

After that age?
Oh fuck off, no one cares what you do, just try not to drive too slow you old fucks.

It's all just so absurd.

I I find myself strangely jealous at traditional retirees. They can just sleep as long as they want to. Many can afford to have a house cleaner. Thy can spend winters in warm Spain. One of them told me once that she thought she had earned it, after working for 30-40 or so years. Maybe it is just that many old people still look so fit and could easily work. As long as they would finance their own existence, that would be totally fair. But many are just using pension systems sponsored by the working people and I foten find that a little unfair. My generation will only get from that fund what we personally build up, which is a lot less than the previous generation got. I hope I will cure from my envy next year, when I can sleep out and to whatever the fuck I want for myself.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2019, 06:21:20 AM »


I I find myself strangely jealous at traditional retirees. They can just sleep as long as they want to. Many can afford to have a house cleaner. Thy can spend winters in warm Spain. One of them told me once that she thought she had earned it, after working for 30-40 or so years. Maybe it is just that many old people still look so fit and could easily work. As long as they would finance their own existence, that would be totally fair. But many are just using pension systems sponsored by the working people and I foten find that a little unfair. My generation will only get from that fund what we personally build up, which is a lot less than the previous generation got. I hope I will cure from my envy next year, when I can sleep out and to whatever the fuck I want for myself.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why can't you do the same once you're FIREd?  There's no rule that an early retiree has to get up early or live in freezing cold Norway.  Actually, I bet living in Spain, Italy, Greece would be cheaper than Norway as there is very little work down here in southern Europe - but that would not be a concern to you as a retiree.  I know what you mean about feeling jealous.  I have an unfortunate tendency to do that too.  So I try to look at what exactly I'm jealous of and replicate that in my life, if possible.  For example, I often find myself jealous of SAHPs so now I'm working towards FIRE so that I can have some of that lifestyle.  Maybe you should consider moving to a warmer climate after FIRE if this appeals to you?

bill1827

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2019, 09:46:13 AM »

I I find myself strangely jealous at traditional retirees. They can just sleep as long as they want to. Many can afford to have a house cleaner. Thy can spend winters in warm Spain. One of them told me once that she thought she had earned it, after working for 30-40 or so years. Maybe it is just that many old people still look so fit and could easily work. As long as they would finance their own existence, that would be totally fair. But many are just using pension systems sponsored by the working people and I foten find that a little unfair. My generation will only get from that fund what we personally build up, which is a lot less than the previous generation got. I hope I will cure from my envy next year, when I can sleep out and to whatever the fuck I want for myself.

I don't understand your claim that pensioners are benefiting from something that they haven't funded themselves.

In the UK work pension schemes are financed in part by contributions from the employee and in part by employer contributions. Those contributions should go into an investment plan of some sort which should be administered in such a way that it can provide the benefits that the scheme is intended to supply. In other words it is a system which was funded largely by the employee; the main difference is that the scheme is larger and administered on behalf of many people rather than just one person, which ought to result in economies of scale.

Even the state pension, which isn't properly funded, can justly be regarded as a return for payments made in the course of your employment. If you earn enough you will have paid up to 10% of your income to the government and they have promised to pay you a pension when you reach the age of 67. 10% of income over 35-40 years is a pretty substantial sum of money.

Yes, pension provision has got worse over the last 40 years, largely because of corporate greed in wanting to divest themselves of costs which don't directly contribute to profits, but the claim that pensioners are getting something for nothing doesn't stand up.

BlueHouse

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Re: Guess I won't retire then?
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2019, 10:51:00 AM »


I think the "contribute to society" schtick is a pretty fringe opinion.

oh no.  I think it's the commonly known "protestant work ethic".  It's been drilled into me my whole life.  I'm now starting to think of it as the reverse of "sour grapes".