Good news! I have to drive my truck to work. Thank you, HOA!

[former player]

Wow.  Land of the free, huh?

[Syonyk]

I have.  Still waiting to hear back.  All I've received in response to queries so far are vaguely worded, mildly passive aggressive comments (so pretty standard Seattle-style communication).  If the point me at something concrete, then I will certainly abide by it.  If not, then I'll probably drive it to work until paternity leave, then just move it around the street, and if someone complains, tell them I went to the store and they must have missed it.

[sol]

Sounds to me like there isn't actually any rule about street parking and they're just trying to strongarm you into submission.  Putting something on a website doesn't make it true.

In which case you can ignore them.  Towing companies probably won't tow a legally parked vehicle anyway.

[GuitarStv]

Can't you just swap the car and the truck each day?  Park one on the street and one on the driveway, then reverse?  Much better than driving to work.

[Syonyk]

Sounds to me like there isn't actually any rule about street parking and they're just trying to strongarm you into submission.  Putting something on a website doesn't make it true.

In which case you can ignore them.  Towing companies probably won't tow a legally parked vehicle anyway.

Given the multiple responses I've received saying, "I'm new to this position," and "I will check with the board" instead of referring to specific parts of the HOA agreement or meetings where things were changed, with the new wording, I'm increasingly inclined to agree with you that this is an empty threat.  At which point I can safely go back to bicycling.

Can't you just swap the car and the truck each day?  Park one on the street and one on the driveway, then reverse?  Much better than driving to work.

I could.  We might end up having to do that when we're home with a newborn, since neither of us will be leaving the house much (and I bike or walk to the store most of the time as well).

[mm1970]

Dude,

Why did you buy a home that did not have the parking you needed?  And did not fit your vehicle?  That is beyond absurd IMO.   

It is very common here to not allow overnight street parking in HOA areas, and I am always amazed when people complain.  Neighbors have every right to expect that HOA rules are enforced, and I bet a lot of them REALLY REALLY hate any street parking for more than 6 hours -- and that was a big factor on why they chose to live there -- the wide empty streets look nice and provide lots of visitor parking or cycling, etc...   

Heck, one municipality here says that the entire CITY can only park a max of 3 hours on the street during daytime..

Just sell the truck, for something smaller (or nothing?),  and some of the stuff filling your garage, and you are all set.  Or rent your neighbors' parking spot / garage for your stuff.  or rent a storage locker, or....?

Totally different story if this was parked in your driveway, but it's not.

Some places don't have parking?  I live in a small city, in a small house, on a packed street.  People have a lot of cars.

My neighbors have an old house with a small garage (as in, would maybe fit a Civic).  They have a minivan (3 kids), an SUV (work vehicle), a truck (other work vehicle), and an RV.
They park the RV in the driveway, but only one car fits, so the other 3 cars are on the street.

There are houses in my city that have street parking only.  Our house has 2 parking spots in the front "yard" only.

[mm1970]

It's not a town home. Nor is it an apartment complex. It's standalone houses and duplexes on a city street. There is no assigned parking except driveways.

There is plenty of on street parking, which is commonly used by many people.  Me included.

And, based on my research so far, this was not a regulation when I moved in. It magically appeared very recently, and is not mentioned in any meeting notes I can find. Nor can I find anything requiring cars to be kept in a garage.

So far, it's looking like a very bored busybody who walks around during the day to see what's parked where.

I'm not in an HOA but it's very similar to the laws we have in our city for regular street parking.

There are some areas that have very bad parking issues, and there, you have to have a permit to park.  (I had a similar situation when I lived in Arlington, VA, in the 90s)

The are other areas that aren't as bad, more spread out. There is open street parking but you MUST move your car every 72 hours.  Of course, they don't tow you unless they get a complaint.

A friend of mine used to call in front of her house if someone parked there for 3 days, because it was "extra" cars and she couldn't even park in front of her own house.

I only ever called on someone in front of my house once - it was a big pick up truck with a For Sale sign on it, and after 5 days I called it in.  The city put a warning on it.  I think it got moved right before they were going to tow it.  But you know, I could not see to get my little Civic out of the driveway with a big red truck in front of my house.  I'm sure it was just there because it's a corner and so it's a good place to get visibility on the sale.

Only one of my friends called me "mean" for calling it in.  Hey, the laws in the city are clear.  If the single guy who lives behind me (we share a driveway) leaves one of his FOUR cars on the street for 5 days when he's on vacation, I won't call him in, because I know his car.  Same with the next door neighbors.  (Though why a single guy needs 2 SUVs and 2 cars, and cannot manage to park them at his house with a 2-car garage and 3 other parking spaces is beyond me).

[Syonyk]

And if our local parking coordinator would tell me what law they were actually trying to enforce, or what HOA regulation they'd added and the wording, I would happily comply.

She hasn't done either.  Just a lot of whining about how she's new to the position.

[sol]

And if our local parking coordinator would tell me what law they were actually trying to enforce, or what HOA regulation they'd added and the wording, I would happily comply.

She hasn't done either.  Just a lot of whining about how she's new to the position.

Just tell her that you are complying with the current regulations, and if they want to change the HOA rules to forbid street parking they should get an agenda item on the HOA meeting schedule to propose a committee to review how to change the HOA bylaws. 

That should take at least a few months, then they can request a vote.  Be sure to insist they get a quorum to show up, as I'm sure your HOA won't allow any rule changes without one.

In the meantime, follow the current rules.  I would probably also remind the person threatening you with towing that they are the one in violation of the bylaws.  Then run against them at the next HOA election on those grounds.

[russianswinga]

It seems to me this can be solved in a very mustachian way. First of all - priorities.

• Sell the motorcycles. You can't ride the with the baby, period. You mentioned they do not have a lot of value - that means it will be cheap to buy back in when you're ready to ride again!
• Get a vertical rack for your garage - this way you can park your bicycles on the wall:
  
• Park your truck in the garage
• Park your car in the driveway
• Profit!

Look, you can battle an HOA all you like, and maybe you'll even win, but this way you're making a change that is 100% in compliance with what they want, doesn't determent your current life - you're only getting rid of the motorcycles you don't ride, you're keeping the truck that you actually use - and your quality of life will improve from not having to deal with HOA jerks. Plus you get to keep biking to work. I'd say that's a win on all fronts - optimization all around!

[clarkfan1979]

HOA's suck. I got towed dropping my dog off at a friend's house who lives in a crazy HOA. I parked in his driveway and my bumper was blocking the sidewalk. I was in his house less than 8 minutes and got towed. The tow truck driver did the whole thing without his lights on to avoid me seeing him. Sneaky.

It is very common to have ridiculous rules. Instead of trying to change the rules, I would just try to avoid them at all costs. I believe that is the strategy of MMM.

[lavidaportland]

Sell the truck. It's a headache and a luxury.

[Syonyk]

It seems to me this can be solved in a very mustachian way. First of all - priorities.

Yes, one of which is "Getting out of this area," which we're doing in a year.  :)  So, worst case, I have to deal with this for a year.  And, as my previous updates implied, the person responsible for this has utterly and completely no clue what rules she's actually enforcing, and refuses to answer very simple questions about what the phrasing of the rule is, what the requirements are, how they determine vehicles have moved, etc.  At this point, I'm reasonably convinced the problem was not that my truck didn't move often enough, but that I got good at parking it in the same space when it did move (usually in the evenings or at night).  So instead of parking it tightly with the wheels over the lip of the road, tucked up against the garden, so the Subaru from across the street fit nicely in front of it and there was plenty of room (hundreds of feet) behind it for other cars, I'm parking it randomly in that several hundred foot stretch (which, sadly, means I hang out a bit further into the road, because I can't clear the various decorative boulders back there).  If the person involved stops hassling me due to these changes in how I park, then I'm happy, and can keep ebiking my way to work without being bothered.  If they never tell me that it's required to move and be away from the neighborhood for 8 hours a day or whatever, then I can just shuffle parking spots and be fine.  I was concerned about this due to the "vehicles don't move analysis method" seeming to be, "Walk around during the day and see what's parked where" (based on lack of evidence of any other method).

Sell the motorcycles. You can't ride the with the baby, period. You mentioned they do not have a lot of value - that means it will be cheap to buy back in when you're ready to ride again!

My *wife* can't ride with the baby.  I certainly can, and do at least on occasion out here (and will do so more when we move, as it won't involve sitting in traffic in the rain).  Given that our plan involves moving very close to grandparents, we'll probably be able to ride sooner rather than later once we move.  I've considered selling the motorcycles, but as they're Buells (a discontinued brand), they're really not worth much at all on the used market, I know the entire maintenance history of one of them and a good chunk of the history of the others (including all the recent history), and they're well tuned to how we ride them.

With regards to this particular issue, unless I sell /all/ of them, there's no benefit to parking - our garage is small enough that I would have to get rid of all the motorcycles to have a chance of fitting the car.  Since I do still use them myself on occasion when my wife & I are going different places and I don't have time to bike (or am going too far for bicycle), it makes sense to keep at least one, which means there's no benefit to selling the others.

If I were to sell them and obtain comparable bikes in the future, they'd be a different brand, and I'd be spending roughly ~2x the expected sale value to get a decent set of stuff, plus 6 months of the "maintenance catchup game and costs" that every new-to-me used vehicle ever has involved.

Get a vertical rack for your garage - this way you can park your bicycles on the wall

That's actually really cool, and I had no idea that existed.  I'm pretty confident that drilling holes in the garage wall to mount things like that is against our lease as well, because everything else we've wanted to do with the place we're renting is against our lease.

Park your truck in the garage
Park your car in the driveway

And here's where the set of suggestions comes apart, unfortunately.  The truck doesn't fit in the garage.  Not even close.  It's too wide, too tall, and too long.  It's a truck obtained for somewhat infrequent use hauling large things, towing heavy things, and generally covering the large end of our transportation requirements.  The garage is also a very small garage.

The only viable way of putting both vehicles in is "Car in the garage, truck in the driveway fully blocking the car," which would require the truck to move any time we wanted to take the car anywhere.  Sort of defeats the purpose.

Look, you can battle an HOA all you like, and maybe you'll even win, but this way you're making a change that is 100% in compliance with what they want, doesn't determent your current life - you're only getting rid of the motorcycles you don't ride, you're keeping the truck that you actually use - and your quality of life will improve from not having to deal with HOA jerks. Plus you get to keep biking to work. I'd say that's a win on all fronts - optimization all around!

I think calling the HOA jerks bluff also solves the problem nicely. :)  Which, as far as I can tell, I have successfully done (in this case).  At the very least, I have an email chain I can point to and say, "I asked very simple, specific questions about the requirements, and they were entirely unanswered" should they try to give me trouble in the future.

Sell the truck. It's a headache and a luxury.

I'll be sure to note that later.  I'm heading out to (yet again) use it as a truck, moving a side business I'm part owner of from one building to a larger facility as we're outgrowing our current space.  It gets used as a truck 3-4 times a month, either for stuff I'm moving, or profitably, helping other people deal with large stuff that they can't move on their own with standard Seattle vehicles.  Or, on occasion, just being nice and helping people out for free (which I understand isn't very popular around here for some reason).  And, unlike a rental truck, I can actually keep useful things in it, like a few dozen moving blankets, tie down straps, tools, etc.  Which, again, get used frequently, and would otherwise be in my garage.

[russianswinga]

My *wife* can't ride with the baby.  I certainly can, and do at least on occasion out here

Umm, I hate to break it to you, but you're a dad now. Speaking as someone who's about to have his fist baby any day (we're 1 week overdue), I must say ... I would LOVE to get a crotch rocket. A Ducati Monster makes my blood pump faster. But a 2-wheeled vehicle is a method of transportation where you can be doing EVERYTHING right, and a small mistake by another driver may end your life - the same mistake would have resulted in a scratch on your car or truck, such as a side swipe into a blind zone. You cannot afford to ride - not because of money or parking problems, but because you cannot afford to leave your baby without a father. This is why my motorcycle purchase will wait until my kid is 18 and in college, living on their own. Until then - I have to be there for her, every hour of every day.

Oh - and I'm sorry, I didn't realize the truck doesn't fit into the garage - yes, then my suggestion of parking it there is unworkable. :(
Best of luck with the HOA, let us know how it turns out. I have an HOA myself ($260/mo) but they're nowhere near that obnoxious - the most issues I've had with them is arguing over the paint color of the front door on my condo (I'll spare you the details - there is no arguing, it's their color and there's no challenging that).

[Syonyk]

But a 2-wheeled vehicle is a method of transportation where you can be doing EVERYTHING right, and a small mistake by another driver may end your life - the same mistake would have resulted in a scratch on your car or truck, such as a side swipe into a blind zone. You cannot afford to ride - not because of money or parking problems, but because you cannot afford to leave your baby without a father. This is why my motorcycle purchase will wait until my kid is 18 and in college, living on their own. Until then - I have to be there for her, every hour of every day.

That's an interesting analysis in a thread where my major concern is that I'd rather bicycle to work than drive a truck to work.  I've had far more close calls with cars bicycling past heavy traffic in the bike lane than I've had riding motorcycles in less populated areas.  I've also managed roughly an equal (low) number of motorcycle and bicycle crashes over the many years I've preferred two wheels, and I've done significantly more damage to myself on a bicycle than a motorcycle (it turns out crashing in full riding gear at low speed is less damaging than crashing in shorts and a tshirt from the same height and similar speeds).

I ride motorcycles in full gear, mostly neon, and while having a kid will certainly affect some of my riding style (though getting older has roughly the same effect), I'd rather do what I can to mitigate the risk and still ride, than avoid doing something I love doing for 2 decades because it might injure or kill me.  That's the same logic that leads to people buying huge (new) SUVs, because they're "safe" (even though they're not).  I expect that more of our riding will be taking motorcycles down utterly inappropriate roads for them (dirt/gravel), and I might end up with different motorcycles slightly better suited to that, but "Don't ride because it's unsafe" is not something I care to teach my kids. :)  And there are a lot of things that could injure or kill me.

However, I'll probably spend more time taking various motorcycle control classes, since I'm not riding every day anymore, and I recognize that my skills are hugely decayed from that period in my life (I could feel the edge being gone if I'd gone 2-3 days without riding - I'm currently about as sharp as a ball peen hammer).  And, maybe ride in something closer to full leathers than normal street gear.  I'll see.

[vivophoenix]

you have two vehicles, and do not use one of them,  the truck, often.  you are complaining about having to move it every 48 hours. your wife doesn't like driving it. the truck doesn't fit in the garage you have, or the drive way you have, and it is in danger of being towed for its lack of use. you bike to work, and occasionally use this truck to move things. I am assuming you have to pay insurance for this truck, and depending in the state, excise tax. so you take to this forum to say that the only option you have ( as per the title of this thread) is to now drive this vehicle to work.

It's clear that the OP doesn't want any solutions that involve the following:


1) selling his truck/bikes/other car/stuff in garage

2) doing anything with the truck that involves moving it in some other way than driving it to work

.you dont really have to drive it to work. you just dont want to take any other solution. I do not think the HOA is the real issue here

[Gin1984]

The best I have so far:

Cars must be moved every 48 hours

Ok, so every other day you move it...one foot forward, or one foot backward.

You can do it the easy way: turning on the engine and using combustion power.  Or the semi-badass: put it in neutral and push by hand.  Or the full-badass: either keep it in park and push, or pick it up - by hand either way.

But if they haven't defined "moved", as long as you "move" it then it seems they have no basis for proceeding against you.  Thoughts...?

My old state had that law and you had to drive it more than that.

[MDM]

My old state had that law and you had to drive it more than that.

Two feet? ;)

Seriously - did the state define "how much" it needed to be moved?

[amicableskeptic]

I think a few MMM articles are in order here

First, accept that owning a large truck is basically never a good choice (best case weld a hitch onto your car to tow your trailer and totally get rid of it, worst case trade it for a minivan)
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/04/its-never-too-late-to-ditch-your-gas-guzzler/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/08/turning-a-little-car-into-a-big-one/

Next, realize that you can and should use Craigslist to clean out your garage.  This will give you cash now and make moving easier in the future.  Plus if you ever do need these things again in the future Craigslist will be there again providing replacements.  Selling in a big city like Seattle will probably add a premium to the prices too which is an added bonus.  On top of all this investing the cash you earn from selling now means it will be even greater when time comes to replace these things.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/11/get-rich-with-craigslist/

Finally, remember that a Mustachian life is all about the reward of solving puzzles rather than just complaining about them.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/07/how-to-tell-if-youre-a-complainypants/

You sound like a driven capable guy, get to solving this one!

[Syonyk]

I'm quite familiar with the articles linked, and I'm also quite familiar with the fact that, trying to tow 1500 lbs with my previous Subaru through mountains, it was not a happy vehicle.  Storing a trailer has the same issue as the truck here.  And, a Subaru won't tow an antique car.  That's ~6k lbs or so, with car + trailer, and my wife's family is very active with such things.  We've towed trouble trailer on some tours already (nearly century old cars don't match a Honda Fit for reliability), and are going to continue getting more involved with that group.

Further, I /actually use the truck as a truck/ when I drive it.  I just moved the side business I'm part owner of this weekend (couple trips, full bed and cab each time), and am in the middle of searching for the right deal on a dozen or so 7' tall server racks to populate our new server room (yes, I have a 8' bed, because, yes, I do move large and long things regularly).  Being able to pick up large stuff on short notice and actually move it is rare in the Seattle area, which has led to some very nice deals for me.

The "solution" to this particular issue, according to a few conversations I've had with other people on the HOA board, is to just not park it in exactly the same spot every time when I do drive it.  So, hopefully, this resolves the issue, and people leave me alone for a year until I move out of this area into somewhere where a truck makes even more sense (rural Idaho, planning to do a lot of aquaculture, solar R&D, and gardening).

And at this point, unless someone complains again, it doesn't have to go to work regularly.  Because they won't tell me what the expectation is, I'm setting my own, which looks an awful lot like what I was doing.

[dycker1978]

"other stuff" and my wife's family is very active with such things.  We've towed trouble trailer on some tours already (nearly century old cars don't match a Honda Fit for reliability), and are going to continue getting more involved with that group.

It sounds to me that your wife's family needs a truck, and you need a trailer.  Sell them the truck and buy a trailer for your needs. 

I know that you have said storage on the trailer would be an issue as well, but I am sure that they will have trailer storage sites in the area.  We have them here, and they charge something like $25 a month.  this would really reduce your costs.

[Syonyk]

The overflow lot in the area is full, and trailers explicitly cannot be kept in front of a house.  The truck, as a self-mobile vehicle, can be.  Just, make sure it's *obvious* that it moves.

And the point with the antique cars is that my wife & I are planning to get our own antique car shortly after moving, and/or take one of the others her family has (they've got a few) to meets.  Also, once I've got a bit more shop space, I have many other projects that involve moving heavy things (A friend out east makes good coin repairing construction equipment, which sounds like fun).

With regards to selling things and investing the profits, if we weren't planning to move in under a year, that would make sense, but the transaction costs and "uncertainty costs" (the roughly 6 months that every used vehicle I've ever owned has proven to have, where you spend all your time replacing parts and fixing what the previous owner messed up) make that a significant loss for us.  At this point, all the vehicles are known quantities and I've been doing their maintenance for long enough to be on top of what the current state is.

Really, my major takeaway from this is that HOAs are, in fact, as bad as I'd feared, and we're not city types.  Or even suburb types.  And that moving to Seattle was a very large mistake, and despite the awesome job I moved for, moving to an area that is not compatible with who my wife & I are is dumb.  Also that people who insist Seattle is amazing haven't lived here since about 2000.

[Jack]

Really, my major takeaway from this is that HOAs are, in fact, as bad as I'd feared, and we're not city types.  Or even suburb types.  And that moving to Seattle was a very large mistake, and despite the awesome job I moved for, moving to an area that is not compatible with who my wife & I are is dumb.  Also that people who insist Seattle is amazing haven't lived here since about 2000.

HOAs are indeed evil. (Did you know they started out as a tool to enforce segregation? True story!)

However, the issues you've been having have very little to do with living in a city. An actual urban / inner-ring suburban neighborhood, with small single-family houses built before 1950 or so, will generally not have an HOA and let you do whatever the fuck you want (up to the limits of the city ordinances). My house was built in 1948, I have 3 cars parked in front of it (two in the driveway and a pickup truck in the street), and it's perfectly fine. I have a friend a couple of streets over whose house is bright purple. I could tear out my lawn and put a vegetable garden in my front yard if I wanted. I could even paint polka-dots on my house and nobody would care! (Or maybe they would care, but they wouldn't be able to do anything about it.) I've got neighbors who raise chickens in their backyard, neighbors who have woodworking shops in their detached garages, neighbors with crazy sculptures or landscaping, etc. It's great!

[Syonyk]

That sounds entirely reasonable. I'm just in suburban blandness.

[Gin1984]

My old state had that law and you had to drive it more than that.

Two feet? ;)

Seriously - did the state define "how much" it needed to be moved?

Until the powder the cop put on it was off. 

[Villanelle]

I would drive it around the block every other day, and park it 100+ yards away from where it was parked last time.  Surely, that is "moved" by any reasonable standard.  I would also send another email to the board member with whom you've been corresponding, letting her know that the truck will be moved at least 100 yards and/or to the opposite side of the street very 48 hours, and that you will consider that to be in compliance since it is certainly "moving" the vehicle.  Tell her that if she does not respond to your email, you will consider that her agreement that your plan does in fact comply with the rule, and that if she does respond saying your plan is insufficient, you will be forced to contact a lawyer in order to determine the legality of the rule.

HOAs hate lawyers. 

That said, not all HOAs are that bad.  In SoCal, it is nearly impossible to find a house without an HOA.  (Rare exceptions do exist, but they can be very hard to come by.)  But our current place (a rental, but it used to be home) as a super chill HOA.  They do have a few color pallets from which exterior paint colors must be chosen, but generally, the only other time they do anything is if a house has major wood rot or something super unsightly.  And in that case, they give you months to fix it, and even more months as an extension if you let them know you are working on it. 

[boarder42]

I live in an HOA.  For what i get based on what i pay it couldnt be any better.  for 500 a year i get access to a private lake, a clubhouse with parties thrown once a month (tyically a live band and free food, a pool.  all very reasonable

[zephyr911]

That's actually really cool, and I had no idea that existed.  I'm pretty confident that drilling holes in the garage wall to mount things like that is against our lease as well, because everything else we've wanted to do with the place we're renting is against our lease.

At risk of going off topic, because I know it doesn't affect the truck problem: holes in a wall are really easy to fill. Check for matching paint left around the house (otherwise, any hardware store can match to a chip).

And I have to ask: why do you hate Seattle? I have nothing but good memories from my college years, and have always enjoyed going back. Anything from downtown to way out in the mountains/islands - it was all good for me, and I may even go back.

[Guses]

From the point of view of your neighbours, it can be very annoying if you park a (huge?) somewhat dirty truck in front of their houses constantly (not that this is what you are doing). In winter especially, as the plow needs to avoid the parked car and does a shitty job of plowing the snow.

The HOA harrassment probably doesn't come from nowhere, one of your neighbours probably made a call to the HOA office. I am sure they have other stuff to do than to patrol for "unmoved" cars.

On an unrelated note, we live in a townhouse area and we are amazed by the number of cars that are parked in front of these. If you walk around at night, the street almost look like a parking lot. Townhouses usually have an attached garage, one parking spot outside and one in front of their home (not designated). Of course, most garages are full of junk and most people have 2-3 and sometimes 4(!) cars to park. Insanity.

[Le Poisson]

I haven't read every post here, but since the parking bylaw is one of the many reports my staff churn out annually, I will reply here.

1. Chalk is old school. Unless your town is trapped in 1984, they got rid of chalk long ago. Photo recognition software allows an officer to take an image of your license plate and have it logged into a database that will churn out where the plate was last logged, and whether the GPS coordinates match. I know - what if I moved and came back! You can prove that in court.

2. If your honkin big-ass thunderbuggy with full toolbox and Billy-Bob muddin' tires is parked so your neighbour can't see out their driveway when they try to back out... you're getting towed. I don't need a kid riding past on a bicycle paying your parking fine with his life.

3. Similarly, if your rusty jalopnik plumber-sticker totin' oil leakin' saggy bumper sportin' work truck is making a mess of the road, its outta there.

4. Also similarly, if your tailgate eagle sticker is all someone can see when they pull up to a stop bar at an adjacent intersection, and the shotgun rack in the back window only makes it harder to see through your vehicle, then that truck's gotta go.

All these things represent a safety concern to the town on one level or another, and using nicer words, they all show up in our bylaws. We have a functional intersection definition that protects against parking within 30m on the minor road leg of an intersection and within 60m on the major road. If you fall within that distance and you park a vehicle, you're gonna have a bad day.

[mtn]

The HOA harrassment probably doesn't come from nowhere, one of your neighbours probably made a call to the HOA office. I am sure they have other stuff to do than to patrol for "unmoved" cars.

You greatly underestimate the bored housewife/househusband/busybody. The village (close friend worked there) got complaints for our "luxury" pickup truck that at the time was our nicest vehicle in our non-HOA driveway. This same person would call in about 10 complaints at a time, and they'd be all across the town.

[Syonyk]

And I have to ask: why do you hate Seattle? I have nothing but good memories from my college years, and have always enjoyed going back. Anything from downtown to way out in the mountains/islands - it was all good for me, and I may even go back.

It's a dense, overpopulated area with terrible traffic, insane cost of living, and a political system that can't see past "screw the rich techie scum" as a method of doing anything.

The entitlement mentality out here is also insane, and there is a whole lot of people who love to tell other people what they can and cannot do.

It's not a good fit for us. At all. A lot of people apparently love it, or at least put up with it, but we're done once our lease is up. I'll take a huge pay cut to leave, and have a radically better quality of life due to radically lower cost of living. And be close to family.

And I'll pay off a home in a few years of our rent out here.

[Syonyk]

The HOA harrassment probably doesn't come from nowhere, one of your neighbours probably made a call to the HOA office. I am sure they have other stuff to do than to patrol for "unmoved" cars.

I'm fairly confident that the new person to the position (who has reminded me multiple times that she's new to the position instead of actually answering any of my questions) has a taste of POWER and is just using it.  Passive aggressively, of course, in the Seattle Style.

1. Chalk is old school. Unless your town is trapped in 1984, they got rid of chalk long ago. Photo recognition software allows an officer to take an image of your license plate and have it logged into a database that will churn out where the plate was last logged, and whether the GPS coordinates match. I know - what if I moved and came back! You can prove that in court.

If it were the city harassing me about parking with actual rules and data, I wouldn't have any problems.  They at least define what they're doing and what they expect.  I'm fairly confident the current system is "Walk around in the afternoon and see what vehicles don't look like they've moved much since sometime."

[Grid]

Actually, the whole Seattle experiment has been a lesson, but that's a different thread.

You're the first I've heard to express discontent about Seattle.  I'm planning on moving there.  Could you explain what you don't like (aside from your HOA)?

[Syonyk]

You're the first I've heard to express discontent about Seattle.  I'm planning on moving there.  Could you explain what you don't like (aside from your HOA)?

So, my view of an ideal place to live (which my wife fully agrees with because she grew up in that place), which we're working on accomplishing, is 10+ acres, a nice garden, and neighbors who either don't care what I'm working on, or are happy to come over and lend a hand with whatever bit of machinery I'm working on in my spare time.  The proper view of (for instance) a project car is "Oh, hey, cool, what are you doing with that?" and not "Why do you have a car with no engine in it?  When will you move it?"

We're also both Christian and conservative.  Not drug users.  Prefer to spend less than we make, by a large margin.  We embrace our God-given gender roles (when we were dating, I'd work on her car and she'd cook me dinner, and we both preferred our sides of that exchange, as an example).  So, in a nutshell, "terribly offensive" to the Seattle mentality.

What are you looking for in Seattle and why are you planning to move to this corner of the country?

If you're moving here for tech work, and are willing to fully embrace the insanity that is downtown Seattle (live in a tiny downtown apartment for about half your takehome wages, not own a car, take the busses, walk, or bike everywhere, not admit you work for a tech company because everyone around you feels you're destroying the unique character of the area, feel that an ideal night is standing in line somewhere to spend money, believe that the number of different restaurants and bars around you is a primary consideration in how good an area is, and probably reject as many gender/sexual orientation stereotypes as you possibly can), then you might like it.

If you're planning to live on the east side, homes are stupidly expensive (400k is about as cheap as you'll find unless you're way north or south with a 45 minute+ commute), the traffic more resembles a parking lot than roads (but if you want to get somewhere, good news - 405 will soon have HOV-or-pay-absurd-toll lanes that you can pay for instead of sitting in traffic with the peons), and the cost of living is generally silly.

If you decide to live somewhere with a sane amount of land or reasonable housing prices, excellent!  You'll be looking at an hour+ commute to your job, worse if it's raining.  But, hey, you can join the EV owners who are incredibly smug about how awesome EVs are for sitting in barely moving traffic.

It seems to be really quite popular out here to view small businesses as "the enemy."  Also, large businesses are, of course, pure evil.  But, you'd better campaign for high minimum wage, since it's unaffordable to live here otherwise (apparently).  Be sure to imply all small business owners are filthy rich and they only reason they're not paying their employees more is so they can hoard their riches.  If they say something like, "My wife and I work 60 hour weeks here, barely make a thing, and the wage increases will drive us out of business since we won't be able to afford our employees," be sure to go on about how that's awesome and those businesses failing will make room for a better run business that can be profitable (somehow).

Also, "techie scum" is ruining the area.  Or something.

It's just a very silly area.  You can make a lot of money with the tech companies, but unless you're working for a tech company, it's quite difficult to live out here.  It's a fairly land-constrained area with a huge flood of people moving in from all over, so that puts upward pressure on prices, as do the tech wages.  The infrastructure (roads, public transit, etc) simply cannot handle the number of people out here.

The skiing/snowboarding is OK (not this past winter... no snow to speak of), but the lift lines are sort of nuts.  I learned to snowboard in Colorado, and the lift lines were never a problem.  Here, you can be standing in a lift line for 20-30 minutes at most of the mountains in the area.

On the plus side for many people (I don't care one bit), marijuana is legal and there are plenty of pot stores around.  I hear they're quite successful.  It will still interfere with you getting hired a lot of places, though.

There are also many good microbrews out of the area - if you're an IPA lover, you'll have your choice of wonderful hoppy beers.

I've lived a number of different places, and Seattle is, by far, the least favorite place of mine.  I won't miss it a bit when I leave.

[caliq]

Wow, dude, I was silently commiserating with you and taking your story as a warning to never convince myself I could hack it in an urban/dense suburban area (I'm a rural type too), but you had to go off on the God-given gender roles bit.

To everyone else who's reading and happens to love Seattle/urban areas, I promise not all of us who prefer the country are that backwards...

[Syonyk]

Well, feel free to ignore that part, then.  The rest of it still stands.  I like how you then immediately frame it as me being "backwards."

It's relevant to our dislike of the area.

I know plenty of people who love it out here, or at least tolerate it.

[Guses]

There are also many good microbrews out of the area - if you're an IPA lover, you'll have your choice of wonderful hoppy beers.

Because of the nature of your post, I can't tell if you are dissing IPAs or loving them. Certainly, they also have other beer no?

 

[Syonyk]

There are also many good microbrews out of the area - if you're an IPA lover, you'll have your choice of wonderful hoppy beers.

Because of the nature of your post, I can't tell if you are dissing IPAs or loving them. Certainly, they also have other beer no?

Sorry, I was trying to list the good stuff at the end.

I love IPAs.  Especially the ultra-extreme-punny-hoptastic ones (an IPA with a name that's a pun on hops is usually a really good sign I'll like it).

[SailorGirl]

Um, I love the city. Yes, it's expensive but many large cities are.   It's not filled with techie scum as most of my friends are the artsy type.

If you want land go west or north.  You can't expect to have a lot of land in the middle of an urban area.

Pot *just* became legal so there aren't many pot shops here at all.  perhaps the OP has one nearby that colors his perception.

Actually it seems like the OP lives in an entirely different city.


Maybe there are two Seattles.

[jmusic]

Wow, quite a lot to slog through here Syonyk...  One thought: 

If the HOA cannot PROVE that you're violating a specific bylaw yet they keep pursuing the issue, then couldn't you sue THEM for harassment?

[Syonyk]

Um, I love the city. Yes, it's expensive but many large cities are.   It's not filled with techie scum as most of my friends are the artsy type.

And what do your friends think of Amazon employees?  It's not *filled* with tech types, but the general mentality seems to be that the tech types are ruining the area, by... something.  Bidding up apartments, or causing yuppie bars to replace dives, or something.  I'm a bit fuzzy on the details.

Pot *just* became legal so there aren't many pot shops here at all.  perhaps the OP has one nearby that colors his perception.

Yes.  I do.  And hear about it regularly from my coworkers.

[Syonyk]

If the HOA cannot PROVE that you're violating a specific bylaw yet they keep pursuing the issue, then couldn't you sue THEM for harassment?

Possibly.  They don't seem too interested in continuing to pursue the issue, at least right now.  And if they do continue to cause problems for me, I have an email thread in which none of my very specific questions about parking were answered, so they'll have a hard time claiming that they'd given me any notice about what the expectations were.

[fantabulous]

Maybe there are two Seattles.

Traditional gender role Seattle and gender non-conforming Seattle?

[Syonyk]

I forgot to mention how "open minded" and "progressive" many Seattleites like to think themselves.  Unless you disagree with their pet priorities.  Then you're a terrible person and a blight on the area and other such wonderful things.

[caliq]

Openmindedness does not have to extend to legitimately harmful opinions.

I have zero issues with you and your wife filling traditional gender roles.  My husband and I do mostly the same -- he does the lawn, I cook, etc.  Mainly because his idea of cooking is microwaving a hot dog or putting a frozen pizza in the oven.

However, my issue is with the fact that you referred to these personal preferences as "God given gender roles."  This implies that having any preferences which do not fit your born gender is unnatural and lesser.  Uh, no thanks.

I'm pretty sure you actually realize the issue with that view point, considering you refer to them as gender stereotypes later in your post.

[zoltani]

Maybe there are two Seattles.

Yes, and one of them is a suburban hell!

I love the area as well, but live in Tacoma where the cost of living is MUCH less than seattle. It might even have that rough blue collar feel the OP is looking for. 

[Syonyk]

Openmindedness does not have to extend to legitimately harmful opinions.
...
However, my issue is with the fact that you referred to these personal preferences as "God given gender roles."  This implies that having any preferences which do not fit your born gender is unnatural and lesser.  Uh, no thanks.

So the fact that I believe God created males and females as equally valued but significantly different, filling complementary roles, is a "legitimately harmful opinion" that I'm not allowed to have according to you, even though the scope of that is limited to my immediate family?  Huh.

I really don't care what other people do.  It's their lives to live as they see fit.  Anyway, you make my point nicely for me - thank you.

I love the area as well, but live in Tacoma where the cost of living is MUCH less than seattle. It might even have that rough blue collar feel the OP is looking for.

Tacoma is quite reasonable.  As is Renton, Covington, Kent, etc.

Unfortunately, those areas are a ~1hr commute each way from my job, which I refuse to do.  If I move further away from my job, it becomes not worth it to me to commute.  I'm here for a job, and if I'm going to move far enough away that I'm not going to stay with that job, I'll just move all the way over to near family in Idaho and be a whole lot happier.

[zoltani]

I am really interested in where you live. You say seattle, but have an HOA in a SFR. I have not heard of this, only HOAs in condo buildings.

[Syonyk]

I'm over in Kirkland, as a specific location.  Seattle identifies the general corner of the country (Washington, west of the mountains).