The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: zolotiyeruki on September 15, 2014, 12:32:34 PM
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About four months ago, we bought an 8-passenger Honda Odyssey in anticipation of the arrival of our 6th child. It's a '06, had 96k miles, and we spent $9700 all up.
Yesterday, some friends visited us. Like us, they're expecting child #6, and like us, their 7-passenger minivan wouldn't cut it any more. So they bought an '06 Suburban with 98k miles. For $15k.
Now, I've heard that Suburbans are great because of cargo space and passenger space, etc., so I asked if I could take a look inside. Here's what I found:
1) legroom is actually *worse* in the 3rd row.
2) hip room is no better, with the possible exception of the middle seat in the 2nd row.
3) cargo space is probably about the same. The Suburban has more room front-to-back, but the Odyssey has more room top-to-bottom.
4) head room is about the same, possibly a bit better in the Odyssey
5) floor height is a good 12" higher in the suburban
6) gas mileage--about 15 for the suburban, 22/28 in our Odyssey.
I didn't say anything, but just mentally shook my head, trying to understand the reasoning. They spent $5k more than us on a vehicle which has no additional utility and which will consume 50% more fuel per mile.
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But it's a Suburban! You can crush all those puny Priuses on the road! Can't do that with your Odyssey. /s
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Do all of the seats in the Odyssey have shoulder straps? I know that the suburbans do.
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At least they bought a used one I guess...
Plus it looks more badass *in the non-Mustachian sense of the word* to drive a big, all American gas-guzzling SUV. Next step, after-market rims... :/
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Do all of the seats in the Odyssey have shoulder straps? I know that the suburbans do.
Yes, All the seats in the Odyssey have shoulder belts- Can't say I love the jump seat (middle second row) but it won't kill any of the kids you make sit there.
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Jesus, it's not a clown car.
I'm not referring to the vehicles, by the way.
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Do all of the seats in the Odyssey have shoulder straps? I know that the suburbans do.
Yes, All the seats in the Odyssey have shoulder belts- Can't say I love the jump seat (middle second row) but it won't kill any of the kids you make sit there.
Yup, all shoulder belts. The jump seat is quite narrow, but the biggest kid we'll ever have sit in it will be 9 years old (that's 9 years from now, just before the oldest ones start moving out and freeing up seats)
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You got a great deal on that Odyssey!
We love ours, it's an 03, and we will probably stick with it when it needs to be replaced, just upgrade a few more years. I think a Suburban is fine if you want to pay more to buy it and more throughout it;s life at the pump :)
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The Odyssey and the Sienna are pretty much the best choices for transporting large families, and are, in my opinion, the only minivans worth buying. Lots of folks don't know, as you pointed out, that you don't always get more room in SUVs (even large ones) than you do in minivans. And when you throw in the other factors related to safety, such as the presence of top tether anchors for forward-facing children or low centers of gravity, minivans are really hard to beat.
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Well, sometimes a school bus is just a little too much, and then a Suburban is just right. I also saw another equally ridiculous car recently -- was it called an Armada? Seriously, it was as big as our daughter's dorm room.
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Fyi, you can now add a 4th row in the back of a suburban. Might make it a better choice than the giant passenger vans for those with 7+ kids. My aunt and uncle have 7 and went for the giant van.
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When I was looking for an SUV (pre-MMM), I was *shocked* at how little rear leg room there was in both the Volvo XC90 and the XC60.
I ended up replacing my Honda CR-V with a new Honda CR-V, which has acres of rear leg room compared to virtually everything else I test drove. The Volvos reminded me of the McMansions with their massive master bedrooms, with sitting rooms and spa baths with garden tubs, and then the other bedrooms in the house are all 10' x 10'. The front seat of the Volvo is an absolute delight - comfortable, spacious, luxurious - but the backseat is the pits!
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Just playing devil's advocate here but...
Per Fuelly, the 2006 Suburban gets on average 15mpg and the 2006 Odyssey get 20mpg combined, so the Suburban uses 34% more fuel per mile (on average).
Also the Suburban offers the extra utility of a much greater towing capacity than the Ody and available AWD (if you need that).
http://www.fuelly.com/car/chevrolet/suburban_1500/2006 (http://www.fuelly.com/car/chevrolet/suburban_1500/2006)
http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/odyssey/2006 (http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/odyssey/2006)
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Growing up, my dad had a 15 passenger van (for our family of 5). He would commute about an hour in to work each day, and he started up a Vanpool where people paid to hop in and go from our middle of nowhere part of the world into the city for work.
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I have a co-worker that just had his first child. He had an extended cab Tacoma. One day he mentioned that the Tacoma was not cutting with the baby and needed supplies it so he was thinking about a Suburban. He then asked me if I knew what type of milage they got. I said "about 15". He replied with "Cool, I thought they only got 10 or so". The next week, he shows up with a Tahoe, I guess the Suburban was just a little too much for him;) Later on, I asked how long his commute was (probably 20-25 miles one way). He replied that he didn't know.
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I'm dubious that you get 22 mpg around town in a Honda Odyssey. Have you actually measured it? The actual tag on a 2014 Honda Odyssey says 19 mpg. The Suburban gets 15ish, so not that far off from your minivan. I'm not sure that deserves the Antimustachian Wall of Shame, at least not on miles per gallon alone. I personally yell out "BUY A SMALLER CAR!!!!!" to every SUV I see, especially in a parking lot, but I drive a sedan.
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Some people wouldn't be caught dead driving a minivan...
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At least the friend is putting 8 people (2 parents / 6 kids) in the vehicle.
It would be quite facepunch worthy if it was just the 2 parents and say 2 kids.
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Jesus, it's not a clown car.
I'm not referring to the vehicles, by the way.
+1.
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About four months ago, we bought an 8-passenger Honda Odyssey in anticipation of the arrival of our 6th child. It's a '06, had 96k miles, and we spent $9700 all up.
Yesterday, some friends visited us. Like us, they're expecting child #6, and like us, their 7-passenger minivan wouldn't cut it any more. So they bought an '06 Suburban with 98k miles. For $15k.
Now, I've heard that Suburbans are great because of cargo space and passenger space, etc., so I asked if I could take a look inside. Here's what I found:
1) legroom is actually *worse* in the 3rd row.
2) hip room is no better, with the possible exception of the middle seat in the 2nd row.
3) cargo space is probably about the same. The Suburban has more room front-to-back, but the Odyssey has more room top-to-bottom.
4) head room is about the same, possibly a bit better in the Odyssey
5) floor height is a good 12" higher in the suburban
6) gas mileage--about 15 for the suburban, 22/28 in our Odyssey.
I didn't say anything, but just mentally shook my head, trying to understand the reasoning. They spent $5k more than us on a vehicle which has no additional utility and which will consume 50% more fuel per mile.
this rather hard to mock they purchased a 8 person car, for 8 people, for about 15k, used. sure the mpg isnt the best. but its 8 person vehicle.
so what if they paid 5k more than you.
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I'm dubious that you get 22 mpg around town in a Honda Odyssey. Have you actually measured it? The actual tag on a 2014 Honda Odyssey says 19 mpg. The Suburban gets 15ish, so not that far off from your minivan. I'm not sure that deserves the Antimustachian Wall of Shame, at least not on miles per gallon alone. I personally yell out "BUY A SMALLER CAR!!!!!" to every SUV I see, especially in a parking lot, but I drive a sedan.
I don't know what the "official" ratings say, but on the highway, we get about 25mpg (actual measurement). I'm not sure around town. Our old '01 Odyssey (which we would have kept, except it has no 8th seat option), got 22-23mpg on the highway and 18 mpg in the city.
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I so often mocked my cousin who "needed" a Suburban for her family of four because sometimes her kids friends needed a ride to the soccer games that I won't cast stones for a family of eight getting one. Wouldn't e my choice but at least they will fill up the seats.
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I won't comment on any of the things you've already mentioned but...we have a suburban and we'll be getting rid of it ASAP. It's an 04 with just over 100,000 miles and all those great bells and whistles are breaking left and right. Many of the problems we've had, once googled, seem to hugely common. Like, should have been recalls, common. And expensive. Might want to warn your friends they can plan on replacing the gauges in the dash and the probably the seat warmers. And in a parking break issue and a stability control problem and they might be 1/2 way there. Oh, and stock up on new gas caps. We have loved the suburban for our trips to the cottage but we could have gotten just as nice of a trip in something much better. Unfortunately, this was a very pre-MMM purchase.
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Honestly with 8 people probably close to 1500lbs your really pushing the van, I'll bet with that load the suburban gets almost its rated mpg and the van gets no were near its rated mpg plus your starting to push the limits on payload and suspension. I have seen lots of vans packed up and riding on the axles, floating down the freeway. I'd choose the truck personally.
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Honestly with 8 people probably close to 1500lbs your really pushing the van, I'll bet with that load the suburban gets almost its rated mpg and the van gets no were near its rated mpg plus your starting to push the limits on payload and suspension. I have seen lots of vans packed up and riding on the axles, floating down the freeway. I'd choose the truck personally.
Something we rarely see around here. Actual vehicle capacities and ratings. My previous vehicle was a quad cab tacoma and even on a truck like that the weight capacity when carrying 5 passengers and some luggage hits the limit very quickly. If you're towing a trailer on top of that you're probably over the limit. A lot of mustachians driving econoboxes are unknowingly exceeding the vehicle's weight capacity when they have all seats filled or even just a few seats and some gear.
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It is definitely something to be aware of. My Metro's 688lb passengers+cargo capacity is easy hit every time we cram four people in with any sort of cargo (like say, a small stack of papers).
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On another forum I visit, there is almost always a post titled, "What's the car to buy for a family of eight (No minivans)?" It seems that getting a minivan is something that some (especially men) people won't do! It just makes me so glad that my dh could care less what he drives as long as it functions and gets us there reliably. The Suburbans have gotten better with gas mileage, but it still isn't as good as a minivan. And if you buy a Honda or Toyota, you will have less expensive maintenance and higher resale value than a Suburban. Unless you have a boat or trailer to pull or you really need 4WD, I could never see buying one. This is a post I wrote in that forum: (Since writing this, I have sold my 06 Odyssey and now only have the 98 Sienna and a 2010 Prius)
What does owning a SUV vs. a Minivan really cost you?
At the risk of derailing another thread, I thought I would start my own:
It seems like at regular intervals, there is a thread on "What SUV best fits my family of 6-8? "My husband hates minivans" is a common theme of those threads. Here's something to show those reluctant hubbys when they feel their manhood is threatened if they aren't behind the wheel of something that could pull a yacht.
My advice to wives who need to convince their husbands: Show them the math. Unless your husband loves his job and has no plan of ever retiring, this should interest him.
I wrote this based on my family car purchase in 2005. We were having our fifth child and needed a car with safe seating for 7-8. (Good thing we chose one that could seat eight, because baby #6 came along 2 years later.) Of course, I love the look of SUV's (Who doesn't compared to a minivan). We looked at a few that could work at the time, and loved the Chevy Suburban and Honda Pilot. We quickly ruled out the Pilot, because the third seat was too small for growing kids and lack of cargo space. We had been driving a 1998 Toyota Sienna, which got decent gas mileage and had been a great car, so I had some doubts about a domestic car. Gas mileage was a concern at the time (although we had no idea how much higher gas could go!) After some debate, the eight passenger Honda Odyssey won out. We still drive it and it's been a great car. (We also still have the Toyota).
So how much (beyond the minimum $10,000 cheaper purchase price) did this save me?
For argument sake, let's say I put that extra $10K savings in a low fee index fund. And that over the next eight years, I added to it the difference in cost between a minivan and SUV in maintenance, gas, insurance, taxes, etc.
According to the Edmunds link hut provided, the difference in costs for the two vehicle over the period of 5 years is as follows:
http://www.edmunds.com/tco.html
(Used 2008 data)
$42,141 Odyssey
$52,018 Suburban
(Again, this excludes the purchase price)
So approximately $10,000/5 years or $2000/per year or $166.66/mo. (I will assume a similar cost for the full eight years)
Let's assume I put the extra $10K in my index fund, then added the $166.66/mo. for eight years.
We will assume an average 10% per year appreciation index fund- which is what my index funds did during this period averaged over the eight years.
in eight years, the fund will be worth $46,593.82
In 30 years, (even without adding an additional penny after the initial eight years) that fund will be worth $379,286.53
But wait, you say! I found a used SUV that's the same price as the minivan.
Just on extra costs of owning a SUV ($166.66/mo.)--
If the minivan owner invested the difference for eight years, the fund is worth $25,157.94 in eight years.
and if you never added any more to that fund, in 30 years it will be worth $204,792.48
You went to the same places, had the same number of people with you, had all the same fun but in 30 years, you have an extra $205K in your pocket compared to someone driving that Suburban. And that only from investing the difference in cost for 8 years! Yet most people would have bought a new car in that time and started the insanity over again. What difference would that money make? Would that pay off your mortgage? Buy a vacation home? Put your kids through college and beyond? How attractive is that SUV now?
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The most antimustachian thing I read here was by far having 6 kids, not a slight difference i mpg..
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Around here the second set of rims are for winter tires - that means your summer and winter tires stay on their own rims. Only downside, winter rims sure are ugly.
Next step, after-market rims... :/
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The most antimustachian thing I read here was by far having 6 kids, not a slight difference i mpg..
Thankfully, we all get to define our own lives and not follow MMM's one child policy!
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The most antimustachian thing I read here was by far having 6 kids, not a slight difference i mpg..
Look at it this way, if Mustachians don't have kids, who do you have left having kids? People who are wasteful. That's the problem this day and age - the people who would teach their kids to be most responsible don't have them in the first place. Then the world gets even more irresponsible.
I'm the oldest of 6 kids. My family owns a full-size Chevy van (12-seater). We get better person miles per gallon than your typical Prius!
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The most antimustachian thing I read here was by far having 6 kids, not a slight difference i mpg..
Look at it this way, if Mustachians don't have kids, who do you have left having kids? People who are wasteful. That's the problem this day and age - the people who would teach their kids to be most responsible don't have them in the first place. Then the world gets even more irresponsible.
What are electrolytes? Do you even know? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1fKzw05Q5A)
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The most antimustachian thing I read here was by far having 6 kids, not a slight difference i mpg..
Look at it this way, if Mustachians don't have kids, who do you have left having kids? People who are wasteful. That's the problem this day and age - the people who would teach their kids to be most responsible don't have them in the first place. Then the world gets even more irresponsible.
I'm the oldest of 6 kids. My family owns a full-size Chevy van (12-seater). We get better person miles per gallon than your typical Prius!
Perhaps, but pumping out a football team worth of spawn for your own entertainment, that will all be a massive drain in the planet's resources no matter what, is pretty wasteful to me. And I doubt I have the financial or technical resources to give one kid a perfect upbringing (which if it were up to me would be the minimum requirement), with six it would be impossible. I think my parent's three kids was irresponsible, how can you give adequate attention/resources to all? I blame them I'm not a nobel price winning astronaut.
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The most antimustachian thing I read here was by far having 6 kids, not a slight difference i mpg..
Look at it this way, if Mustachians don't have kids, who do you have left having kids? People who are wasteful. That's the problem this day and age - the people who would teach their kids to be most responsible don't have them in the first place. Then the world gets even more irresponsible.
But that isn't realistic, because lots of Mustachians do have kids, because they want them, even though they are expensive.
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And from upon his highest perch, atop the spire of ivory, did the wise one spake thusly.
"And lo, I am the arbiter, the wise one, who shall tell thee the futility of thy existence, so though may agonize over fulfilling thy biological purpose.
"For I know all details of thee, thy means, thy acumen, and I know the future to foresee that thy venture once undertaken will fail.
"Thou must not have children, for they will all become degenerates and consume the resources of the Earth, and only flowers, grass and trees are allowed to do thusly, for as the All Being of Space and Time, I have appointed myself the great permitter of what is allowed to exist and live, and what isn't.
"Thou must not study, or work, or create anything, for it will fail, and consume resources, and that will be less for I, the wise one. For alas, any task I fail at, none could ever accomplish, for I am perfect.
"So sayeth the wise one, He Who Knows What is Best for All."
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Good one. Sounds about right..
I'm just the one pointing out that kids are just as much a luxury as an Escalade. Expensive, wasteful, and serve no purpose (there are more humans than we'd ever need). If you want to have them fine but somebody is going to speak the truth.
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I'm just the one pointing out that kids are just as much a luxury as an Escalade. Expensive, wasteful, and serve no purpose (there are more humans than we'd ever need).
How depressing. Just shoot me now.
You must be a real hoot at dinner parties.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObdC3uhPeEY
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Ok. If kids are different than other silly luxuries please explain. Ready? go!
(not saying there's anything wrong with it, we all have luxuries. But let's just be honest here)
It takes some serious hubris think that your doing the world a favor by impose another one of you on it..
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Ok. If kids are different than other silly luxuries please explain. Ready? go!
(not saying there's anything wrong with it, we all have luxuries. But let's just be honest here)
It takes some serious hubris think that your doing the world a favor by impose another one of you on it..
In my mind, it takes some serious hubris and/or delusion to earnestly compare a human being to an inanimate object. You're making me wish your parents had embraced your depressing mindset.
Instead of taking my time to explain myself to a stranger with bizarre views on the internet, I'd rather spend my time taking my silly luxury on a walk on a beautiful fall day.
But there's one positive thing that came out of this exchange - I have a new nickname for my son - silly luxury!
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Ok. If kids are different than other silly luxuries please explain. Ready? go!
(not saying there's anything wrong with it, we all have luxuries. But let's just be honest here)
It takes some serious hubris think that your doing the world a favor by impose another one of you on it..
In my mind, it takes some serious hubris and/or delusion to earnestly compare a human being to an inanimate object. You're making me wish your parents had embraced your depressing mindset.
Instead of taking my time to explain myself to a stranger with bizarre views on the internet, I'd rather spend my time taking my silly luxury on a walk on a beautiful fall day.
But there's one positive thing that came out of this exchange - I have a new nickname for my son - silly luxury!
You disagree with me so you wish I was never born? Classy! I at least can tolerate people with differing views being alive..
Stop with the straw man. I'm not saying kids are bad, just that it's a luxury some people choose to make sacrifices for. I know many people think their spawn is a lovely gift to the world and the rest of us should all be grateful. Sorry to burst your bubble.
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You disagree with me so you wish I was never born? Classy! I at least can tolerate people with differing views being alive.
It was a joke, but I guess those things don't translate on the interwebs. Besides, your viewpoint on humanity and the only possible perpetuation of it (i.e. procreation) is so joyless that I'm not surprised you don't have a sense of humor on the matter. My apologies for being so classless as to point out the logical conclusions of your views in a tongue in cheek way.
But at this point I'll heed the wise advice to not feed the troll. This is, after all, a thread about Mustachian vs. Antimustachian ways to cart existing large families around.
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Ok. If kids are different than other silly luxuries please explain. Ready? go!
(not saying there's anything wrong with it, we all have luxuries. But let's just be honest here)
It takes some serious hubris think that your doing the world a favor by impose another one of you on it..
In my mind, it takes some serious hubris and/or delusion to earnestly compare a human being to an inanimate object. You're making me wish your parents had embraced your depressing mindset.
Instead of taking my time to explain myself to a stranger with bizarre views on the internet, I'd rather spend my time taking my silly luxury on a walk on a beautiful fall day.
But there's one positive thing that came out of this exchange - I have a new nickname for my son - silly luxury!
Strangers with bizarre views on the internet? That's what we are all about here.
Gotta agree with scandium, though. Kids are definitely a luxury, unless you plan to out them to work in the fields. Try to take a step back from your defensiveness and look at it objectively.
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Honestly with 8 people probably close to 1500lbs your really pushing the van, I'll bet with that load the suburban gets almost its rated mpg and the van gets no were near its rated mpg plus your starting to push the limits on payload and suspension. I have seen lots of vans packed up and riding on the axles, floating down the freeway. I'd choose the truck personally.
Something we rarely see around here. Actual vehicle capacities and ratings. My previous vehicle was a quad cab tacoma and even on a truck like that the weight capacity when carrying 5 passengers and some luggage hits the limit very quickly. If you're towing a trailer on top of that you're probably over the limit. A lot of mustachians driving econoboxes are unknowingly exceeding the vehicle's weight capacity when they have all seats filled or even just a few seats and some gear.
I'm curious about this. Can you link to some places that discuss optimum load and mpg? I'm still wondering why you wouldn't end up ahead driving a smaller vehicle, all things considered (incl. car cost).
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Honestly with 8 people probably close to 1500lbs your really pushing the van, I'll bet with that load the suburban gets almost its rated mpg and the van gets no were near its rated mpg plus your starting to push the limits on payload and suspension. I have seen lots of vans packed up and riding on the axles, floating down the freeway. I'd choose the truck personally.
Something we rarely see around here. Actual vehicle capacities and ratings. My previous vehicle was a quad cab tacoma and even on a truck like that the weight capacity when carrying 5 passengers and some luggage hits the limit very quickly. If you're towing a trailer on top of that you're probably over the limit. A lot of mustachians driving econoboxes are unknowingly exceeding the vehicle's weight capacity when they have all seats filled or even just a few seats and some gear.
I'm curious about this. Can you link to some places that discuss optimum load and mpg? I'm still wondering why you wouldn't end up ahead driving a smaller vehicle, all things considered (incl. car cost).
I've not looked at any numbers or information at all, but I would assume the ratings have more to do with safety then mpg. It would be interesting to see how mpg varies based on weight, load on suspension, how overloading a vehicle will accelerate the required maintenance on parts, etc.. I'm sure load weight is a much smaller portion of mpg then aerodynamics or (lack of) hypermiling technique.
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Something we rarely see around here. Actual vehicle capacities and ratings. My previous vehicle was a quad cab tacoma and even on a truck like that the weight capacity when carrying 5 passengers and some luggage hits the limit very quickly.
Sorry to thread hijack, but I drive a '05 Scion xA and the manual has nice little diagrams to show how to not exceed the fairly low capacity. It amuses me every time I read it. You can have 4 people and 3 suitcases, or 5 people and 3 backpacks, etc. I think the max is 800 pounds, perfectly reasonable for the road/camping trips I used to take with my boyfriend. Also good for tooling around town and getting groceries now that we're a family of 3. Hauling 15 bags of mulch? Only if I'm the only vehicle occupant.
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I've not looked at any numbers or information at all, but I would assume the ratings have more to do with safety then mpg. It would be interesting to see how mpg varies based on weight, load on suspension, how overloading a vehicle will accelerate the required maintenance on parts, etc.. I'm sure load weight is a much smaller portion of mpg then aerodynamics or (lack of) hypermiling technique.
You are correct--higher weight means stopping distance is increased. It will also negatively affect your mileage in city driving, but actually *benefits* you on the highway--your car sits lower and has slightly less air resistance. I suppose there could be additional load on the drivetrain, but if it's designed and maintained properly (not always the case, sadly, even with Honda) it shouldn't be an issue.
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Congrats to OP on expecting #6! We are in the same position :)
Interesting thread jack about the advisability of kiddos. Ahh well, my offspring will rule the world as they will constitute a nice voting block all by themselves ;) For the folks worried about the consumption of natural resources, what a tiny perspective. LOOK UP. There's an entire uninhabited galaxy out there waiting for us. We've not yet begun to explore Creation!
We will jump from 7pass van to 12 pass van instead of 8pass stop-gap. Analysis:
-initial purchase price is similar.
-gas mileage is indeed 30% or so worse. but we drive the family hauler 3-5k per year max... so the $$ impact is not huge.
-we won't stop at kid #6. this will be our last natural kid, from here out we start adopting. the transactions costs of selling/buying cars adds up (taxes etc) and eats into the mpg savings of a 8pass stop-gap car. So we'll go big. this'll be our last 'family' vehicle.
The wild card vehicle on our list is a $35k used Mercedes Sprinter. before you face-punch me, consider this:
- resale value is tremendous, these things hold their value.
- possibility to finance as an RV, possible tax and insurance savings
- possibility of converting to RV once the kids are gone, DW and I then live in it and travel the world for a few years.
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Congrats to OP on expecting #6! We are in the same position :)
Interesting thread jack about the advisability of kiddos. Ahh well, my offspring will rule the world as they will constitute a nice voting block all by themselves ;) For the folks worried about the consumption of natural resources, what a tiny perspective. LOOK UP. There's an entire uninhabited galaxy out there waiting for us. We've not yet begun to explore Creation!
We will jump from 7pass van to 12 pass van instead of 8pass stop-gap. Analysis:
-initial purchase price is similar.
-gas mileage is indeed 30% or so worse. but we drive the family hauler 3-5k per year max... so the $$ impact is not huge.
-we won't stop at kid #6. this will be our last natural kid, from here out we start adopting. the transactions costs of selling/buying cars adds up (taxes etc) and eats into the mpg savings of a 8pass stop-gap car. So we'll go big. this'll be our last 'family' vehicle.
The wild card vehicle on our list is a $35k used Mercedes Sprinter. before you face-punch me, consider this:
- resale value is tremendous, these things hold their value.
- possibility to finance as an RV, possible tax and insurance savings
- possibility of converting to RV once the kids are gone, DW and I then live in it and travel the world for a few years.
I seriously considered the sprinter vans, that's definitely the way to go IMO. My BIL owns a busing company that uses a lot of the sprinters. They hold their value and go forever- 300+K miles. Just get the Diesel engine. He talked my parents into buying a sprinter chassis RV and its awesome. We take it on trips all over and get great gas mileage (comparable to our odyssey). And as you know, those vans hold their value.
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Ok. If kids are different than other silly luxuries please explain. Ready? go!
(not saying there's anything wrong with it, we all have luxuries. But let's just be honest here)
It takes some serious hubris think that your doing the world a favor by impose another one of you on it..
Hugs and wet kisses. Giggles and races. Wakeups at 1 am.
Future engineers and scientists. Doctors, nobel prize winners, farmers. Someone to hold your hand when you lay dying on your hospital bed.
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Ok. If kids are different than other silly luxuries please explain. Ready? go!
(not saying there's anything wrong with it, we all have luxuries. But let's just be honest here)
It takes some serious hubris think that your doing the world a favor by impose another one of you on it..
Hugs and wet kisses. Giggles and races. Wakeups at 1 am.
Future engineers and scientists. Doctors, nobel prize winners, farmers. Someone to hold your hand when you lay dying on your hospital bed.
Ok. We agree. Those are all nice, but not necessities (like oxygen and nourishment). I.e they are luxuries.
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When I was looking for an SUV (pre-MMM), I was *shocked* at how little rear leg room there was in both the Volvo XC90 and the XC60.
I ended up replacing my Honda CR-V with a new Honda CR-V, which has acres of rear leg room compared to virtually everything else I test drove. The Volvos reminded me of the McMansions with their massive master bedrooms, with sitting rooms and spa baths with garden tubs, and then the other bedrooms in the house are all 10' x 10'. The front seat of the Volvo is an absolute delight - comfortable, spacious, luxurious - but the backseat is the pits!
If you want to be shocked about legroom, jump in the back seat of a Scion xB. it's crazy how much space you have, even if the drivers seat is all the way back. Headroom too! Now, it's definitely not a luxury car (noisy cabin and seats aren't leather or anything like that). Obviously not feasible for a family of 8 though!
At what point do you have kids who can drive and make them drive car # 2 of a caravan? I'm sure the duggers need 3 or 4 cars!
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Ok. If kids are different than other silly luxuries please explain. Ready? go!
(not saying there's anything wrong with it, we all have luxuries. But let's just be honest here)
It takes some serious hubris think that your doing the world a favor by impose another one of you on it..
Hugs and wet kisses. Giggles and races. Wakeups at 1 am.
Future engineers and scientists. Doctors, nobel prize winners, farmers. Someone to hold your hand when you lay dying on your hospital bed.
Ok. We agree. Those are all nice, but not necessities (like oxygen and nourishment). I.e they are luxuries.
Someone to empty your bedpan when you don't feel like walking to the bathroom?
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Ok. If kids are different than other silly luxuries please explain. Ready? go!
(not saying there's anything wrong with it, we all have luxuries. But let's just be honest here)
It takes some serious hubris think that your doing the world a favor by impose another one of you on it..
It is an interesting time we live in that someone would propose that children are silly luxuries. I assume it is because of our options for contraception, a move away from an agrarian society, and a changing morals in regards to family structure. Having children used to mean help on the farm, someone to carry on the family name, someone to care for you when you were old; among other things. Now, we have a choice. We can engage in procreative acts without ever procreating, if we desire. We feel little to no responsibility to care for aging parents, we can institutionalize them instead. There is no worry about family name or honor any more. We can give ourselves any name we choose. Now we can look at children and think "luxuries"- like a Porsche 911 or a yacht. I suppose that would mean that only the wealthy should have them. We might ridicule anyone who struggles financially who acquired children before they had the 250K saved to raise them to adulthood, as well as another 250K for their university degree. It's an interesting and disturbing view of the world. And would make a decently scary dystopian novel.
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Ok. If kids are different than other silly luxuries please explain. Ready? go!
(not saying there's anything wrong with it, we all have luxuries. But let's just be honest here)
It takes some serious hubris think that your doing the world a favor by impose another one of you on it..
It is an interesting time we live in that someone would propose that children are silly luxuries. I assume it is because of our options for contraception, a move away from an agrarian society, and a changing morals in regards to family structure. Having children used to mean help on the farm, someone to carry on the family name, someone to care for you when you were old; among other things. Now, we have a choice. We can engage in procreative acts without ever procreating, if we desire. We feel little to no responsibility to care for aging parents, we can institutionalize them instead. There is no worry about family name or honor any more. We can give ourselves any name we choose. Now we can look at children and think "luxuries"- like a Porsche 911 or a yacht. I suppose that would mean that only the wealthy should have them. We might ridicule anyone who struggles financially who acquired children before they had the 250K saved to raise them to adulthood, as well as another 250K for their university degree. It's an interesting and disturbing view of the world. And would make a decently scary dystopian novel.
oo-kay? It's a" scary time" now because women aren't forced to be constantly pregnant pumping out children, half of whom will die before 10 years old, to endlessly toil on a sustenance farm from age 5, and then care for their parent's with pneumonia at age 55? Ok, there are places in the world where you can live like that, but I'd rather take the society we have here.
No I don't need children to do slave labor for me (or does mowing the lawn count?). And I'd rather my children don't have to care for my dying ass when that time comes. I'm glad we have to option to avoid this in todays society. But like I said you can move to rural China and you and your children can experience this wonderful life!
ps; If by "wealthy" you mean people who can afford children, yes I think only those with the means to should have children. I don't think it should be illegal, but personally I don't think it's right to produce a child if you can't properly care for it.
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oo-kay? It's a" scary time" now because women aren't forced to be constantly pregnant pumping out children, half of whom will die before 10 years old, to endlessly toil on a sustenance farm from age 5, and then care for their parent's with pneumonia at age 55? Ok, there are places in the world where you can live like that, but I'd rather take the society we have here.
It's only scary if it's enforced. However, if opinions like yours become mainstream, it might be someday.
No I don't need children to do slave labor for me (or does mowing the lawn count?). And I'd rather my children don't have to care for my dying ass when that time comes. I'm glad we have to option to avoid this in todays society. But like I said you can move to rural China and you and your children can experience this wonderful life!
I have worked in these institutions that will take care of you so you don't have to burden your family with your dying self. I can assure you, it's not the ideal situation you imagine it. Especially with no family for oversight.
ps; If by "wealthy" you mean people who can afford children, yes I think only those with the means to should have children. I don't think it should be illegal, but personally I don't think it's right to produce a child if you can't properly care for it.
How much is enough? At what income level do we allow this? My grandparents raised six children on a dairy farm in the depression. All six became college educated, and three became University professors. I thought MMM was about making do with less. But if you have a chart that shows how much you need to make in order to allow yourself these luxuries, please share.
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I like how we went from purchasing a Suburban vs an 8 passenger minivan to whether or not having children is a luxury, necessity, burden on society, etc.
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I like how we went from purchasing a Suburban vs an 8 passenger minivan to whether or not having children is a luxury, necessity, burden on society, etc.
yes. this is totally derailed, and a pretty stupid discussion at that. Lets just let it die
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Years ago I drove a suburban for a summer job with fisheries and oceans.
It was the ONLY vehucle that would fit two workers, and the small boat inside the car, so we did not need a trailer. Bigger /longer than a full size pickup bed when the seats are folded. 4x4 was needed to access the put-in sites.
Other than that, I can see no use for one.
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Are mini-vans even being made any more? I ask, having no children and no need to transport lots of humans.
I miss my station wagon which was perfect for 'porting 4 dogs, all with short legs. They could see out all of the windows in the back. Now they are in a deep well in my current SUV and they don't like it as much.
When that station wagon went kerplunk, the only car DH and I could agree on was the small Ford station wagon, but they had stopped making it by then and we had no time to go out and look for a used one. So we ended up with a generic SUV made by Mercury, but really, it's just an Escape with Mercury name on it.
I still want a small wagon but refuse to pay the $10,000 surcharge (over American make prices) for the Subarooo version.
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Are mini-vans even being made any more? I ask, having no children and no need to transport lots of humans.
I miss my station wagon which was perfect for 'porting 4 dogs, all with short legs. They could see out all of the windows in the back. Now they are in a deep well in my current SUV and they don't like it as much.
When that station wagon went kerplunk, the only car DH and I could agree on was the small Ford station wagon, but they had stopped making it by then and we had no time to go out and look for a used one. So we ended up with a generic SUV made by Mercury, but really, it's just an Escape with Mercury name on it.
I still want a small wagon but refuse to pay the $10,000 surcharge (over American make prices) for the Subarooo version.
If you don't mind sharing, what is your budget, if you're buying used what kind of mileage and how old would you consider?
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I've not looked at any numbers or information at all, but I would assume the ratings have more to do with safety then mpg. It would be interesting to see how mpg varies based on weight, load on suspension, how overloading a vehicle will accelerate the required maintenance on parts, etc.. I'm sure load weight is a much smaller portion of mpg then aerodynamics or (lack of) hypermiling technique.
You are correct--higher weight means stopping distance is increased. It will also negatively affect your mileage in city driving, but actually *benefits* you on the highway--your car sits lower and has slightly less air resistance. I suppose there could be additional load on the drivetrain, but if it's designed and maintained properly (not always the case, sadly, even with Honda) it shouldn't be an issue.
Do you have a source for the load/mpg relationship? My anecdotal experience directly and strongly contradicts that. We used to make a ~75 mile drive a couple times a year to visit relatives. Under normal load (2 adults, 2 children, not much luggage) we get around 37 mpg each way in a scion xA for that trip. When those relatives were moving, they offered us their food storage because their relocation package wouldn't cover it. They're Mormons, so they had quite a bit - we got several hundred pounds of wheat, flour, dry beans, oats, etc. When I drove down, with just me and with the kids' car-seats removed, I got 41 mpg. Driving back, with a full load, I only got 32. This was all freeway driving, light traffic, 60 mph, minimal hills each way.
Perhaps it would make less of a difference for a car with a more powerful engine? As someone mentioned earlier, the total recommended weight limit for the xA is just over 800 lbs. Come to think of it, I very likely exceeded the limit on that trip...
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Do you have a source for the load/mpg relationship? My anecdotal experience directly and strongly contradicts that. We used to make a ~75 mile drive a couple times a year to visit relatives. Under normal load (2 adults, 2 children, not much luggage) we get around 37 mpg each way in a scion xA for that trip. When those relatives were moving, they offered us their food storage because their relocation package wouldn't cover it. They're Mormons, so they had quite a bit - we got several hundred pounds of wheat, flour, dry beans, oats, etc. When I drove down, with just me and with the kids' car-seats removed, I got 41 mpg. Driving back, with a full load, I only got 32. This was all freeway driving, light traffic, 60 mph, minimal hills each way.
Perhaps it would make less of a difference for a car with a more powerful engine? As someone mentioned earlier, the total recommended weight limit for the xA is just over 800 lbs. Come to think of it, I very likely exceeded the limit on that trip...
Heh--my anecdotal experience was that the higher weight increased gas mileage. Of course, this was driving a minivan from Milwaukee to Minneapolis and coming back with 500lbs of wheat in the back. Maybe I had a gradual downhill coming back, and you had a gradual uphill? :)
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Not to stop the /r/childfree debate, but back to the OP: I get what you're saying, but this is a pick your battles situation, IMO. I mean this even from an internet bb perspective, as you obviously didn't say anything to your friend.
As a 25 year old I have multiple friends with BMWs/huge houses/etc. $15,000 on a car for a family of 8, while maybe not as mustachian as possible, is leaps and bounds better than the average household.
To me it's like pointing out your friend who saves $15% of their income. Is it less than most people here? yes. Is it loads better than 80%+ of people? Also yes.
That's a good point, and others have also pointed out that "at least they're using that capacity." So I don't want to jump on them too hard, but it struck me as odd that they opted for the larger vehicle.
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Do you have a source for the load/mpg relationship? My anecdotal experience directly and strongly contradicts that. We used to make a ~75 mile drive a couple times a year to visit relatives. Under normal load (2 adults, 2 children, not much luggage) we get around 37 mpg each way in a scion xA for that trip. When those relatives were moving, they offered us their food storage because their relocation package wouldn't cover it. They're Mormons, so they had quite a bit - we got several hundred pounds of wheat, flour, dry beans, oats, etc. When I drove down, with just me and with the kids' car-seats removed, I got 41 mpg. Driving back, with a full load, I only got 32. This was all freeway driving, light traffic, 60 mph, minimal hills each way.
Perhaps it would make less of a difference for a car with a more powerful engine? As someone mentioned earlier, the total recommended weight limit for the xA is just over 800 lbs. Come to think of it, I very likely exceeded the limit on that trip...
Heh--my anecdotal experience was that the higher weight increased gas mileage. Of course, this was driving a minivan from Milwaukee to Minneapolis and coming back with 500lbs of wheat in the back. Maybe I had a gradual downhill coming back, and you had a gradual uphill? :)
Minor ups and downs each way, but overall it was a slight downhill on the way back (about 100 ft over the 75 miles).
I googled to see if anyone had researched this. The EPA (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/driveHabits.jsp) estimates 2% reduction in MPG for every 100 lbs, which is in the right ballpark from my experience.
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If you don't mind sharing, what is your budget, if you're buying used what kind of mileage and how old would you consider?
oh this was several years ago, but I guess today, I would expect to find a Subaru with less than 50,000 miles on is at a price that is less than a brand new stripped down Ford Escape.
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Children are luxuries lol? I always thought of them more as a hobby or a lifestyle choice.
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Children are luxuries lol? I always thought of them more as a hobby or a lifestyle choice.
Hobbies and lifestyle choices are luxuries.
HTH
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Let's follow that logical path for a while:
-Kids are a luxury
-You are someone's kid
-Your existense is therefore also a luxury
???
-Profit
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I've noticed that most families that drive Suburbans around here fall in to two groups: (1) They have large toys like powerboats that a minivan couldn't tow (and notwithstanding the anti-MMM of powerboats), and (2) need 8 passenger seats because each passenger takes up two normal size seats. That is all.
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I've noticed that most families that drive Suburbans around here ... need 8 passenger seats because each passenger takes up two normal size seats. That is all.
Central Illinois FTW!
Let's follow that logical path for a while:
-Kids are a luxury
-You are someone's kid
-Your existense is therefore also a luxury
???
-Profit
because science.
That was an answer given by an elementary student on one of my teacher friend's quizzes, and it is now my go to response.
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Honestly with 8 people probably close to 1500lbs your really pushing the van, I'll bet with that load the suburban gets almost its rated mpg and the van gets no were near its rated mpg plus your starting to push the limits on payload and suspension. I have seen lots of vans packed up and riding on the axles, floating down the freeway. I'd choose the truck personally.
Something we rarely see around here. Actual vehicle capacities and ratings. My previous vehicle was a quad cab tacoma and even on a truck like that the weight capacity when carrying 5 passengers and some luggage hits the limit very quickly. If you're towing a trailer on top of that you're probably over the limit. A lot of mustachians driving econoboxes are unknowingly exceeding the vehicle's weight capacity when they have all seats filled or even just a few seats and some gear.
I'm curious about this. Can you link to some places that discuss optimum load and mpg? I'm still wondering why you wouldn't end up ahead driving a smaller vehicle, all things considered (incl. car cost).
Your vehicle's owner's manual would be a good place to start. We're not discussing "optimum load" vs mpg. I'm talking about actual maximum vehicle weight capacities.
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Jesus, it's not a clown car.
I'm not referring to the vehicles, by the way.
When I was a child, I nearly chocked to death on an Everlasting Gobstopper. I mention this only because my coworker brought in unwanted Halloween candy, and I was eating another one when I read this comment. I didn't chock, but I spit out the Gobstopper just to be safe! (True story)
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Good one. Sounds about right..
I'm just the one pointing out that kids are just as much a luxury as an Escalade. Expensive, wasteful, and serve no purpose (there are more humans than we'd ever need). If you want to have them fine but somebody is going to speak the truth.
Looks like somebody doesn't understand basic economics and the cycle of life.
If you don't make children, old people become the majority and there's nobody to sustain the next generation, ensuring no future and and subsequently, no life. Your country basically ends up like Japan is doing right now.
Saying children are luxuries is like saying the sun serves no purpose.
If everybody walks/bikes and stops buying stupid shit, the economy tanks. Nobody said luxuries aren't good for the economy, simply that they are luxuries.
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That's not what I said unfortunately. I'm saying that even if the current economic system wouldn't exist, humanity can't possibly go on without children.
Which is irrelevant to whether children are a luxury.
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Good one. Sounds about right..
I'm just the one pointing out that kids are just as much a luxury as an Escalade. Expensive, wasteful, and serve no purpose (there are more humans than we'd ever need). If you want to have them fine but somebody is going to speak the truth.
Looks like somebody doesn't understand basic economics and the cycle of life.
If you don't make children, old people become the majority and there's nobody to sustain the next generation, ensuring no future and and subsequently, no life. Your country basically ends up like Japan is doing right now.
Saying children are luxuries is like saying the sun serves no purpose.
We need to encourage the rich to have more children and the poor to have less. If you're Kennedy Rich maybe you can have 9 kids and get them to be Senator/Attorney General/President. If you're poor the government should subsidize sterilizations after (or even before) one child. If you're middle class, the subsidy can wait until after two children.
I've read that Chinese economists regret the one child policy but I don't really understand why. More resources to care for the elderly? They won't be elderly for much longer. Then there's more breathing room for the middle class to rich to stretch out.
As for Japan... It's a small island. Quick Wikipedia check shows "The total population is still 52% above 1950 levels". It would be a lot easier to get a house with that many people gone.
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Good one. Sounds about right..
I'm just the one pointing out that kids are just as much a luxury as an Escalade. Expensive, wasteful, and serve no purpose (there are more humans than we'd ever need). If you want to have them fine but somebody is going to speak the truth.
Looks like somebody doesn't understand basic economics and the cycle of life.
If you don't make children, old people become the majority and there's nobody to sustain the next generation, ensuring no future and and subsequently, no life. Your country basically ends up like Japan is doing right now.
Saying children are luxuries is like saying the sun serves no purpose.
Haha, please show me someone who had had kids because otherwise demographic trends would lead to reduced GDP growth and insufficient pay-in to social programs.
That's why society needs kids, which is totally different from why individuals do. I don't care if an aging population is bad, I'd likely be dead by the time it matters. Our I'd find some way to deal with it.(probably involving all the money I saved by not having kids..)
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My grandpa had one of these bad boys to carry his 12 children:
(http://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/plugins/PostviaEmail/images/1963_Checker_Aerobus_A-12_For_Sale_Front_resize.jpg)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZeFDe44Ddo (I know it's been posted before)
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My grandpa had one of these bad boys to carry his 12 children:
(http://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/plugins/PostviaEmail/images/1963_Checker_Aerobus_A-12_For_Sale_Front_resize.jpg)
If such a vehicle were available today, I'd be first in line (to buy it used). That is simply gorgeous!
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Ok. If kids are different than other silly luxuries please explain. Ready? go!
(not saying there's anything wrong with it, we all have luxuries. But let's just be honest here)
It takes some serious hubris think that your doing the world a favor by impose another one of you on it..
Hugs and wet kisses. Giggles and races. Wakeups at 1 am.
Future engineers and scientists. Doctors, nobel prize winners, farmers. Someone to hold your hand when you lay dying on your hospital bed.
Or future drug addicts, rapists, serial killers, terrorists or despots.
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Ok. If kids are different than other silly luxuries please explain. Ready? go!
(not saying there's anything wrong with it, we all have luxuries. But let's just be honest here)
It takes some serious hubris think that your doing the world a favor by impose another one of you on it..
Hugs and wet kisses. Giggles and races. Wakeups at 1 am.
Future engineers and scientists. Doctors, nobel prize winners, farmers. Someone to hold your hand when you lay dying on your hospital bed.
Or future drug addicts, rapists, serial killers, terrorists or despots.
That is an awfully pessimistic view of the world Pigeon.
Kids turn into that because the adults around them have failed in their responsibilities. No one is innately born with those attributes.
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Haha, please show me someone who had had kids because otherwise demographic trends would lead to reduced GDP growth and insufficient pay-in to social programs.
That's why society needs kids, which is totally different from why individuals do. I don't care if an aging population is bad, I'd likely be dead by the time it matters. Our I'd find some way to deal with it.(probably involving all the money I saved by not having kids..)
A certain ex of mine loved to tout her two young kids as future ass-wipers in her old age. I know estimates of the cost of raising a child vary, but I'm pretty sure $1M, or even just a couple hundred thousand, buys a shitload of ass-wipings.
Plus, chances are by the time you need your ass wiped, they're gonna be asking for help with their own kids.
That is an awfully pessimistic view of the world Pigeon.
Kids turn into that because the adults around them have failed in their responsibilities. No one is innately born with those attributes.
I think the point was that reproduction doesn't *only* bring about the best and brightest of the human race, but also the worst. And sometimes it's nobody's fault. If you ask me, bad parenting mostly produces mediocre people - the kind who fall into the bullshit consumer trap and have just enough kids to increase the population a bit, and idle in their SUVs for hours every day, waiting in traffic between their shitty job, 100%-financed McMansion, and overpriced comfort foods.
Sociopaths are born different. Many have loving upbringings.
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We need to encourage the rich to have more children and the poor to have less. If you're Kennedy Rich maybe you can have 9 kids and get them to be Senator/Attorney General/President. If you're poor the government should subsidize sterilizations after (or even before) one child. If you're middle class, the subsidy can wait until after two children.
I've read that Chinese economists regret the one child policy but I don't really understand why. More resources to care for the elderly? They won't be elderly for much longer. Then there's more breathing room for the middle class to rich to stretch out.
As for Japan... It's a small island. Quick Wikipedia check shows "The total population is still 52% above 1950 levels". It would be a lot easier to get a house with that many people gone.
With the falling population there are free houses everywhere! This is wonderful news!!
(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9d/1f/a7/9d1fa7b949571f97a9514e60d27d9373.jpg)
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Ok. If kids are different than other silly luxuries please explain. Ready? go!
(not saying there's anything wrong with it, we all have luxuries. But let's just be honest here)
It takes some serious hubris think that your doing the world a favor by impose another one of you on it..
Hugs and wet kisses. Giggles and races. Wakeups at 1 am.
Future engineers and scientists. Doctors, nobel prize winners, farmers. Someone to hold your hand when you lay dying on your hospital bed.
Or future drug addicts, rapists, serial killers, terrorists or despots.
That is an awfully pessimistic view of the world Pigeon.
Kids turn into that because the adults around them have failed in their responsibilities. No one is innately born with those attributes.
It is realistic. Not every child is going to be the next Nobel prize winner, and to suggest that having an environmentally irresponsible numer of children is a good thing because one of them will find a cure for cancer is ridiculous. And yes, there are people who are born into perfectly nice homes who turn out badly. It absolutely happens.
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I don't get why the mini-van get's such a bad rap - it just boggles my mind that people actually see a car as a reflection of their masculinity. Buy the tool that is the best for the job and in many cases, for large families, it is the mini-van. I am old enough to remember when mini-vans first debuted. People thought they were wonderful, until somehow they weren't and people decided that a light truck was appropriate for driving on everyday paved roads. At least now the SUVs are starting to move in the right direction - crossovers have lower profiles, better gas mileage while still offering the same benefits as an SUV. I actually laugh when I see the word "crossover" because they are really just slightly taller station wagons which is what families drove before minivans.
As far as how many kids someone should have....it's hard to say. It is an interesting question because it is not cut and dried. Some parents I wish had more kids - my MIL and FIL should have had 10. They were that good at it. But they only had 2. My parents probably should have had none, but I am sitting here typing on this keyboard so I am glad they made that mistake. ;) Part of my decision to stop at two kids vs. three was financial. I wanted to funnel more resources into the children I had, but I won't fault others for making a different decision.
I don't think using finances to determine the amount of kids someone would produce the best result. I'd almost rather see potential parents go through a process similar to what adoptive parents go through, which does include financial ability to support a child, but also includes mental and physical health requirements. I don't think we are there yet, but I could see this becoming a possibility if overpopulation becomes a problem.
Aso, I disagree that a child is a "luxury". A child (looking at them from a cost benefit standpoint) isn't just a "luxury", it is also a "public good". A child, if it becomes a productive adult, is a net benefit to society because it produces goods and/or services that benefit everyone. A "luxury" is just a gratuitous good that benefits yourself and contributes to your own comfort only. I don't view parenting a just a right, but as a responsibility to produce a happy healthy human being that is a positive good to society. If you feel that bringing a child is purely for your own benefit, then you are doing it for the wrong reasons, and should not have children. In that case, get a pet.
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I've read that Chinese economists regret the one child policy but I don't really understand why. More resources to care for the elderly? They won't be elderly for much longer. Then there's more breathing room for the middle class to rich to stretch out.
Total GDP correlates with national power. That's about it.
If you're interested in population decline and a stagnant economy, move to the Midwest somewhere— there are plenty of big beautiful houses for dirt cheap.