Author Topic: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger  (Read 9545 times)

Not There Yet

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 68
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2019, 06:39:31 AM »
Quote
Perhaps GM is compensating for the ever growing body size of the "average" American person.

Could be.  A Honda Civic can carry 850 pounds.  There are plenty of families of four (or fewer!) that are over this limit. 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 07:00:45 AM by Not There Yet »

ChpBstrd

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2548
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2019, 07:21:13 AM »
The current Suburban is 224.4 inches long and gets a mind boggling 11/15 mpg (edit: this is the economy with E85 fuel) depressing 14/20 mpg (4WD 6.2L model). Adding 1.3 inches to the length brings it up to 225.7 inches which is 3.6+ feet longer than a Corolla... I understand why I see these parked outside because it certainly wouldn't fit in our garage!

We just bought over $220 worth of groceries and supplies including some bulky items like paper towels today and it all fit easily in our 166.7 inch long Subaru BRZ. It's hard to imagine a scenario where I would need to transport 7 people and each of them is bringing the equivalent of 3.5 carry-on sized bags of luggage. I'm sure there are some specific scenarios where it makes sense but most the time it's super overkill.

I bought a 2012 Corolla and I find that thing huge. I was driving a borrowed Tercel at the time, and it was about half the size of the honkin' Corolla.

I can't even fathom driving something 3.6ft longer. That's insane.

But with more youd be happier. Its luxury. Obey the ads.

Malcat

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4383
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2019, 07:59:01 AM »
The current Suburban is 224.4 inches long and gets a mind boggling 11/15 mpg (edit: this is the economy with E85 fuel) depressing 14/20 mpg (4WD 6.2L model). Adding 1.3 inches to the length brings it up to 225.7 inches which is 3.6+ feet longer than a Corolla... I understand why I see these parked outside because it certainly wouldn't fit in our garage!

We just bought over $220 worth of groceries and supplies including some bulky items like paper towels today and it all fit easily in our 166.7 inch long Subaru BRZ. It's hard to imagine a scenario where I would need to transport 7 people and each of them is bringing the equivalent of 3.5 carry-on sized bags of luggage. I'm sure there are some specific scenarios where it makes sense but most the time it's super overkill.

I bought a 2012 Corolla and I find that thing huge. I was driving a borrowed Tercel at the time, and it was about half the size of the honkin' Corolla.

I can't even fathom driving something 3.6ft longer. That's insane.

But with more youd be happier. Its luxury. Obey the ads.

Ugh...I really miss that Tercel...

RWD

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4330
  • Location: Mississippi
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2019, 08:56:59 AM »
The current Suburban is 224.4 inches long and gets a mind boggling 11/15 mpg (edit: this is the economy with E85 fuel) depressing 14/20 mpg (4WD 6.2L model). Adding 1.3 inches to the length brings it up to 225.7 inches which is 3.6+ feet longer than a Corolla... I understand why I see these parked outside because it certainly wouldn't fit in our garage!

We just bought over $220 worth of groceries and supplies including some bulky items like paper towels today and it all fit easily in our 166.7 inch long Subaru BRZ. It's hard to imagine a scenario where I would need to transport 7 people and each of them is bringing the equivalent of 3.5 carry-on sized bags of luggage. I'm sure there are some specific scenarios where it makes sense but most the time it's super overkill.

I bought a 2012 Corolla and I find that thing huge. I was driving a borrowed Tercel at the time, and it was about half the size of the honkin' Corolla.

I can't even fathom driving something 3.6ft longer. That's insane.

But with more youd be happier. Its luxury. Obey the ads.

Ugh...I really miss that Tercel...

The new Suburban will be 3.8 feet longer than a 2012 Corolla and 5.3 feet longer than a Tercel.

joleran

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 337
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2019, 10:14:04 AM »
The guy is 6'4":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrESlrGCALM

Retire or get one of these, hmm.

Malcat

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4383
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2019, 10:30:02 AM »
The current Suburban is 224.4 inches long and gets a mind boggling 11/15 mpg (edit: this is the economy with E85 fuel) depressing 14/20 mpg (4WD 6.2L model). Adding 1.3 inches to the length brings it up to 225.7 inches which is 3.6+ feet longer than a Corolla... I understand why I see these parked outside because it certainly wouldn't fit in our garage!

We just bought over $220 worth of groceries and supplies including some bulky items like paper towels today and it all fit easily in our 166.7 inch long Subaru BRZ. It's hard to imagine a scenario where I would need to transport 7 people and each of them is bringing the equivalent of 3.5 carry-on sized bags of luggage. I'm sure there are some specific scenarios where it makes sense but most the time it's super overkill.

I bought a 2012 Corolla and I find that thing huge. I was driving a borrowed Tercel at the time, and it was about half the size of the honkin' Corolla.

I can't even fathom driving something 3.6ft longer. That's insane.

But with more youd be happier. Its luxury. Obey the ads.

Ugh...I really miss that Tercel...

The new Suburban will be 3.8 feet longer than a 2012 Corolla and 5.3 feet longer than a Tercel.

I drove a Jeep Renegade recently on a road trip, which isn't even that huge of a car, and it made me feel so detached from the road. I learned to drive in a 90s Jeep Cherokee, which I thought at the time was huge, but the Renegade felt enormous by comparison and was absolutely no fun to drive. Those old Jeeps were so light.

I drove a Suburban once and it felt like driving a school bus.

RWD

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4330
  • Location: Mississippi
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2019, 10:55:53 AM »
I drove a Jeep Renegade recently on a road trip, which isn't even that huge of a car, and it made me feel so detached from the road. I learned to drive in a 90s Jeep Cherokee, which I thought at the time was huge, but the Renegade felt enormous by comparison and was absolutely no fun to drive. Those old Jeeps were so light.
The Renegade is a little over a foot shorter than your Corolla. But it is noticeably taller, wider, and heavier.

dougules

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2159
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2019, 11:29:28 AM »
is a new tahoe or suburban not mustachian because its big? or expensive? or a 15 year old hatch back? or not a pedal bike?

is it fun to point and laugh, hey look at the middle class american spending $70k on a huge wheel chair,

its all relative, a tahoe buyer would judge many lifestyle choices folks here make in a similar way, its all relative to your echo chamber.

 i find the whole antimustachan wall of shame and comedy forum unproductive and even harmful, it seems to be reinforcing the us vs them narrative that is pervading the internet. focus you you and how you can improve not putting others down

in case your are wondering i drive a paid for 2010 mazda 3 hatchback

You're probably right, but what is a good way to counter the staggering amount of money that goes into programming people to equate these monsters with happiness?

StashingAway

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 411
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2019, 12:14:19 PM »
I drove a Jeep Renegade recently on a road trip, which isn't even that huge of a car, and it made me feel so detached from the road. I learned to drive in a 90s Jeep Cherokee, which I thought at the time was huge, but the Renegade felt enormous by comparison and was absolutely no fun to drive. Those old Jeeps were so light.

Assuming it was a Cherokee and not a Grand Cherokee- those are pretty small vehicles. They're essentially a 4WD wagon. My Pontiac Vibe has a larger footprint (same width and longer by a few inches). And, despite the feeling you had, the Renegade is the shortest of the three (but also the widest)!

zolotiyeruki

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3837
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2019, 12:18:45 PM »
Heh, several months ago I was on a business trip and we rented a Nissan Armada.  Compared to our humble minivan, it carried fewer passengers, was less comfortable, had maybe half the cargo space, got worse gas mileage, and handled worse.  Ok, so it has better ground clearance (yeah, how many owners actually use that?) and more towing capacity (3,500 lbs vs 3,000).  But it did have a nifty camera setup, and the in-dash display would show a cool 360 degree view of the area around the car whenever you backed up!

Suburbans are a bit better on the comfort and cargo space front, but that's about it.

Malcat

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4383
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2019, 12:26:08 PM »
I drove a Jeep Renegade recently on a road trip, which isn't even that huge of a car, and it made me feel so detached from the road. I learned to drive in a 90s Jeep Cherokee, which I thought at the time was huge, but the Renegade felt enormous by comparison and was absolutely no fun to drive. Those old Jeeps were so light.

Assuming it was a Cherokee and not a Grand Cherokee- those are pretty small vehicles. They're essentially a 4WD wagon. My Pontiac Vibe has a larger footprint (same width and longer by a few inches). And, despite the feeling you had, the Renegade is the shortest of the three (but also the widest)!

It was a Cherokee, and it was huge compared to the Tercel.

joe189man

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 153
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2019, 01:49:59 PM »
is a new tahoe or suburban not mustachian because its big? or expensive? or a 15 year old hatch back? or not a pedal bike?

is it fun to point and laugh, hey look at the middle class american spending $70k on a huge wheel chair,

its all relative, a tahoe buyer would judge many lifestyle choices folks here make in a similar way, its all relative to your echo chamber.

 i find the whole antimustachan wall of shame and comedy forum unproductive and even harmful, it seems to be reinforcing the us vs them narrative that is pervading the internet. focus you you and how you can improve not putting others down

in case your are wondering i drive a paid for 2010 mazda 3 hatchback

You're probably right, but what is a good way to counter the staggering amount of money that goes into programming people to equate these monsters with happiness?

more media coverage, in whatever methods the community can do it or just talk to others who dont know about the idea of FIRE. i found MMM through the Tim Ferriss Podcast a few years ago and it opened my eyes to what is possible (not that i follow all aspects of mustachianism). before this i though dave ramsey was the end all be all of PF and was only focused on paying off debt.

Just Joe

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4384
  • Age: 125
  • Location: Just past the red barn on the left.
  • Here to learn.
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2019, 10:21:23 AM »
is a new tahoe or suburban not mustachian because its big? or expensive? or a 15 year old hatch back? or not a pedal bike?

is it fun to point and laugh, hey look at the middle class american spending $70k on a huge wheel chair,

its all relative, a tahoe buyer would judge many lifestyle choices folks here make in a similar way, its all relative to your echo chamber.

 i find the whole antimustachan wall of shame and comedy forum unproductive and even harmful, it seems to be reinforcing the us vs them narrative that is pervading the internet. focus you you and how you can improve not putting others down

in case your are wondering i drive a paid for 2010 mazda 3 hatchback

You're probably right, but what is a good way to counter the staggering amount of money that goes into programming people to equate these monsters with happiness?

$5 gasoline or laughing at their vehicle like it is the Griswold Family Truckster everytime it shows up somewhere. Of course when you show up on a bicycle, it'll require some creative logic and sales gimmicks to explain how you are winning. I guess your net worth might be a good tool.

MilesTeg

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1223
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2019, 12:40:17 PM »
You're probably right, but what is a good way to counter the staggering amount of money that goes into programming people to equate these monsters with happiness?

One step would be to fix regulation so that people who need this



Can still get one so that they don't have to buy a monstrocity like a Suburban or even a minivan. Unfortunatly, CAFE rules let you classify a suburban and a minivan as a "truck" but not a full size wagon.


ketchup

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4281
  • Age: 29
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2019, 08:11:20 PM »
Hell yeah!  A modern-day Roadmaster with an updated engine, better gas mileage, non-crappy-AC, and a safety feature or two would be delightful.  We had one until 2016 and it was wonderful.  Yuge cargo capacity, seated eight, still drove like a car (not way the hell up in the air), and fantastic visibility.

PDXTabs

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2338
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Portland, OR, USA
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2019, 08:15:17 PM »
Can still get one so that they don't have to buy a monstrocity like a Suburban or even a minivan. Unfortunatly, CAFE rules let you classify a suburban and a minivan as a "truck" but not a full size wagon.

This is very, very true. It's also why you don't see compact pickup trucks anymore. We desperately need to replace CAFE with a carbon tax and almost no one is talking about it.

StashingAway

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 411
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #66 on: December 21, 2019, 07:04:13 AM »
Can still get one so that they don't have to buy a monstrocity like a Suburban or even a minivan. Unfortunatly, CAFE rules let you classify a suburban and a minivan as a "truck" but not a full size wagon.

This is very, very true. It's also why you don't see compact pickup trucks anymore. We desperately need to replace CAFE with a carbon tax and almost no one is talking about it.

I'm 110% on board with a carbon tax. It appears to me to b the best workable solution to many of our environmental problems. There's even a bi-partisan bill in congress right now that proposes just that, if only the representatives would get on board.

PDXTabs

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2338
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Portland, OR, USA
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2019, 04:37:31 PM »
It appears to me to b the best workable solution to many of our environmental problems. There's even a bi-partisan bill in congress right now that proposes just that, if only the representatives would get on board.

If you want to think about something scary: between Donald Trump, Mitch McConnell, Nancy Pelosi, and all of the Democratic primary contestants there are two that are making any noise at all about a carbon tax. Those two are Pete Buttigieg and Andrew Yang, neither of which are likely to win.

We're a failed state, we just don't know it yet.

StashingAway

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 411
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2019, 10:29:26 PM »
We're a failed state, we just don't know it yet.

In an alternative viewpoint: that phrase has been said since the beginning of the industrial revolution, and for the most part things just keep getting better. I'm not sure how... and that's no guarantee of the future, but like stock market earnings, the only real data points we can go off of are ones form the past. And the US has survived every "failed state" so far, so there's hope!

Four years ago, I didn't know what carbon tax was. Now I am intimately familiar with it and have seen it referenced quite often in various public spheres (no doubt in part to my recognition of it). The IMF recently came out in support of a carbon tax. HR 763 was proposed to the house last year (it will be congress who does something about this, not the democratic presidential candidate). Economists and humanitarians have been supporting it around the world. Notable conservatives and democrats have supported this bill (such as George P. Shultz, Regan's Secretary of State).

I think on a bigger time scale- 10, 20, 50 years, there's reason for concern but we have no idea what will actually happen, so there's also reason to be hopeful.


PDXTabs

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2338
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Portland, OR, USA
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2019, 11:03:45 PM »
it will be congress who does something about this, not the democratic presidential candidate

Unless they veto the bill. Also, it needs to make it through the Senate.

I think on a bigger time scale- 10, 20, 50 years, there's reason for concern but we have no idea what will actually happen, so there's also reason to be hopeful.

At this rate, in 50 years we'll be fighting over farmland and drinking water.

norajean

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2019, 04:34:06 AM »
Carmakers normally just try to respond to consumer demand or keep up with competitors. I think disposable shavers must have something like seven blades now. At least the new trucks pollute less.

We had a couple Suburbans growing up. Family of six, canoe, trailer, etc. We camped almost every weekend in summer. They are really more like a pickup with a shell over the bed.

I rented one a couple years ago on a trip with five adults with several large bags each. We barely fit. Drove much better than in the old days. Better engine, transmission, suspension, seats, etc. Street parking in San Francisco was a challenge but parking sensors and cameras made a vast difference.

StashingAway

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 411
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2019, 06:00:20 AM »
it will be congress who does something about this, not the democratic presidential candidate

Unless they veto the bill. Also, it needs to make it through the Senate.

I think on a bigger time scale- 10, 20, 50 years, there's reason for concern but we have no idea what will actually happen, so there's also reason to be hopeful.

At this rate, in 50 years we'll be fighting over farmland and drinking water.


In the 1970's, scientific consensus was that due to population growth, we were guaranteed to run into a worldwide food shortage by the end of the century. There were math formulas proving that this was inevitable due to the amount of resources it took to grow food and the speed of population growth. Many people, just like now, decided not to have kids because of this incredibly serious problem.

But, it turns out, we couldn't accurately predict things that we didn't know. We developed farming practices that were so much better that, despite the population growing as planned, we actually for the most part solved world hunger. Fewer people (total) are malnurshed today than in 1970, and we have 3 billion more people. That's quit an accomplishment for a world doomed to poverty!

This isn't to say that we shouldn't be concerned. It's to point out that doomsday isn't inevitable, especially when predicting world events. We can hypothesize all day what happens, but at the end of the day we've survived all of the supposed apocalyptic events that were supposed to happen to us. We did it through ingenuity and human progress, not throwing in the towel and saying the system is broken. Daily, monthly, and even yearly events are minor hiccups in the timeline. It's a scatter plot of data! There's plenty to be hopeful for! We've come so far even in the last decade.

eyesonthehorizon

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 170
  • Location: Texas
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2019, 12:58:04 PM »
... This isn't to say that we shouldn't be concerned. It's to point out that doomsday isn't inevitable, especially when predicting world events. ...
This. I would feel pretty hopeless about the state of things but for the number of Really Motivated young people I know who are thoroughly fed up with climate denial and generalized consumerist shortsightedness, and angry enough to make waves about it. They want to tackle the problem, not look the other way.

zolotiyeruki

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3837
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2019, 04:00:15 PM »
I'm 110% on board with a carbon tax. It appears to me to b the best workable solution to many of our environmental problems. There's even a bi-partisan bill in congress right now that proposes just that, if only the representatives would get on board.
In the context of vehicles, isn't that essentially already done via the federal gasoline tax?
This. I would feel pretty hopeless about the state of things but for the number of Really Motivated young people I know who are thoroughly fed up with climate denial and generalized consumerist shortsightedness, and angry enough to make waves about it. They want to tackle the problem, not look the other way.
The rub, however, is in how the two sides define "tackle."  One wants to rely on the market sort it out, the other wants to push the market via regulation.  If by "tackle," the motivated young people mean "develop technology that will make renewables more competitive" or "develop technology to reduce our demand for energy," then I'm all for it--they'll make tons of money, we'll all reduce our energy expenses, the planet loves us, and we all win.  If "tackle" means increasing regulation and taxes, then I'm decidedly against it.

ChpBstrd

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2548
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2019, 04:06:57 PM »
I'm 110% on board with a carbon tax. It appears to me to b the best workable solution to many of our environmental problems. There's even a bi-partisan bill in congress right now that proposes just that, if only the representatives would get on board.
In the context of vehicles, isn't that essentially already done via the federal gasoline tax?
This. I would feel pretty hopeless about the state of things but for the number of Really Motivated young people I know who are thoroughly fed up with climate denial and generalized consumerist shortsightedness, and angry enough to make waves about it. They want to tackle the problem, not look the other way.
The rub, however, is in how the two sides define "tackle."  One wants to rely on the market sort it out, the other wants to push the market via regulation.  If by "tackle," the motivated young people mean "develop technology that will make renewables more competitive" or "develop technology to reduce our demand for energy," then I'm all for it--they'll make tons of money, we'll all reduce our energy expenses, the planet loves us, and we all win.  If "tackle" means increasing regulation and taxes, then I'm decidedly against it.

"Tackle" means post things on social media.

Only 35.6% of people under 29 turned out to vote in 2018, and that pitiful result was an increase over 2014.
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/04/behind-2018-united-states-midterm-election-turnout.html

dougules

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2159
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #75 on: December 23, 2019, 10:31:40 AM »
I'm 110% on board with a carbon tax. It appears to me to b the best workable solution to many of our environmental problems. There's even a bi-partisan bill in congress right now that proposes just that, if only the representatives would get on board.
In the context of vehicles, isn't that essentially already done via the federal gasoline tax?

In the US gas taxes barely cover a fraction of the road spending.  Gas taxes would have to be along the lines of Europe's rates just to keep from paying for car infrastructure out of the general fund.  If you wanted to add a carbon tax it would be on top of that.  Just rough back of the napkin math, gas would need to be at least $6/gallon for there to be any kind of carbon tax.

StashingAway

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 411
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2019, 12:32:47 PM »
In the US gas taxes barely cover a fraction of the road spending.  Gas taxes would have to be along the lines of Europe's rates just to keep from paying for car infrastructure out of the general fund.  If you wanted to add a carbon tax it would be on top of that.  Just rough back of the napkin math, gas would need to be at least $6/gallon for there to be any kind of carbon tax.

Yep, the first bit is true. Current gas taxes mainly cover road spending. And even those are falling short as cars get heavier and more fuel efficient (more road wear but less $ to cover it)

The second bit doesn't need much back of the napkin math. A carbon tax actually wouldn't affect gas prices as significantly as you have pointed out. Gas is not the largest polluter (coal is by a long shot). You can look calculators for this stuff up online:

A tax of $50 a metric ton of CO2 would increase gas prices about 22%. But that same carbon tax would increase coal prices by 330%. This is a huge amount of tax for carbon... most plans call for a $15/ton tax to start off with.

https://www.resourcesmag.org/common-resources/calculating-various-fuel-prices-under-a-carbon-tax/

And remember, with a carbon tax, economists recommend a dividend program to go along with it; meaning that the populace gets the $ collected and it's revenue neutral for the government. This means that for middle and lower income classes they will have enough return to cover the increase in prices. But I digress... this is getting a bit off topic from the original thread!

PDXTabs

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2338
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Portland, OR, USA
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2019, 02:02:25 PM »
I'm 110% on board with a carbon tax. It appears to me to b the best workable solution to many of our environmental problems. There's even a bi-partisan bill in congress right now that proposes just that, if only the representatives would get on board.
In the context of vehicles, isn't that essentially already done via the federal gasoline tax?

In the US gas taxes barely cover a fraction of the road spending.

This can not be overstated. I live in OR where Federal Highway Trust Fund dollars pay for 29.7% of our highway spending, and every year the Federal Highway Trust Fund pays out more dollars than it takes in from gas taxes.

dougules

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2159
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #78 on: December 26, 2019, 10:04:40 AM »
In the US gas taxes barely cover a fraction of the road spending.  Gas taxes would have to be along the lines of Europe's rates just to keep from paying for car infrastructure out of the general fund.  If you wanted to add a carbon tax it would be on top of that.  Just rough back of the napkin math, gas would need to be at least $6/gallon for there to be any kind of carbon tax.

Yep, the first bit is true. Current gas taxes mainly cover road spending. And even those are falling short as cars get heavier and more fuel efficient (more road wear but less $ to cover it)

The second bit doesn't need much back of the napkin math. A carbon tax actually wouldn't affect gas prices as significantly as you have pointed out. Gas is not the largest polluter (coal is by a long shot). You can look calculators for this stuff up online:

A tax of $50 a metric ton of CO2 would increase gas prices about 22%. But that same carbon tax would increase coal prices by 330%. This is a huge amount of tax for carbon... most plans call for a $15/ton tax to start off with.

https://www.resourcesmag.org/common-resources/calculating-various-fuel-prices-under-a-carbon-tax/

And remember, with a carbon tax, economists recommend a dividend program to go along with it; meaning that the populace gets the $ collected and it's revenue neutral for the government. This means that for middle and lower income classes they will have enough return to cover the increase in prices. But I digress... this is getting a bit off topic from the original thread!

What I was saying with the $6/gallon is that that's about the vicinity of where you would be just above the baseline for purely paying for the roads.  Anything up below about that price would just be a reduction in how much driving is subsidized. 

StashingAway

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 411
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #79 on: December 26, 2019, 03:19:51 PM »
What I was saying with the $6/gallon is that that's about the vicinity of where you would be just above the baseline for purely paying for the roads.  Anything up below about that price would just be a reduction in how much driving is subsidized.

Oooohhhh... yeah I got ahead of myself and misread you. I see what you meant now.

Just Joe

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4384
  • Age: 125
  • Location: Just past the red barn on the left.
  • Here to learn.
Re: GM made the Suburban and Tahoe even bigger
« Reply #80 on: December 29, 2019, 02:58:37 PM »
Hell yeah!  A modern-day Roadmaster with an updated engine, better gas mileage, non-crappy-AC, and a safety feature or two would be delightful.  We had one until 2016 and it was wonderful.  Yuge cargo capacity, seated eight, still drove like a car (not way the hell up in the air), and fantastic visibility.

I agree. The Griswold Family Cruiser could have a better environmental footprint with an updated drivetrain than the biggest SUVs.

Build a modern full-size wagon with a proper Prius type hybrid drivetrain or PHEV but not a mild-hybrid aka alternator/motor combo as GM did at one point.