Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills

[MrsPete]

... I would have too, except she didn't start in with the cussing, disobedience, hitting, wall pounding, door breaking, lying, truancy, fraud, runaway behavior, or false reports until after the paperwork was signed ...

There were some reports of minor violent behavior in her file from the more distant past (as in ~2 years before) but nothing on this scale. Several shrinks, two treatment foster care parents, some teachers, and a bunch of social workers swore up and down that she'd made some significant permanent changes. I was enough of a dumbass to believe them. The contract I signed requires me to tolerate her abuse and to support her financially no matter what until she turns 18.

Makes me think about the old story about boiling a frog:  If you toss a frog into boiling water, he'll jump out and save himself.  But if you put him into room-temperature water, he'll fail to notice the change in temperature until things have heated up to the point that he can't escape.  (Not that I've ever actually boiled a frog.)

In this situation, the girl didn't jump straight to her major-bad-behavior.  No, she eased into it, so you didn't recognize it for what it was at first. 

From what you're saying, I have the impression that she's smart.  She probably did improve her behavior around those shrinks, foster care parents, teachers, etc.  She was trying to get adopted and knew good behavior would behoove her. 

[cloudsail]

Oh my gosh. I didn't realize you had this kind of adoption nightmare going on in your life. Can't offer anything more than best wishes for you.

Honestly, it takes a certain kind of talent to lie and cajole the way your daughter can. She'll probably be fine, maybe not the kind of life that we'd consider "fine", but fine by her standards.

Good lord, I hope you get out of this nightmare soon.

[okits]

Oh my gosh. I didn't realize you had this kind of adoption nightmare going on in your life. Can't offer anything more than best wishes for you.

Honestly, it takes a certain kind of talent to lie and cajole the way your daughter can. She'll probably be fine, maybe not the kind of life that we'd consider "fine", but fine by her standards.

Good lord, I hope you get out of this nightmare soon.

+1.  I'm very sorry this has been your experience, TGS.  Not only has your daughter wasted the golden opportunity to be part of a functional, caring family that can teach her how to improve her life, she took the chance away from another child who genuinely wanted a family and hand up.

Thank you for opening up to us.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

My daughter continues to associate with her sister and other members of her bio-family who interact with her. So another attack and investigation against me is highly probable. My daughter has already made at least one call to report me for abusing her when I failed to give her money she wanted to go gallivanting with her school friends after she'd already spent her allowance.

It's an entitlement class thing. You get used to it. But after this little bird leaves the nest, I've resolved never going to voluntarily associate with another member of that socioeconomic class so long as I live.

Ouch.  How old is she?

Serious question:  If you could go back to the beginning, was there any chance of "winning" with this girl?  That is, any chance of helping her see the path to a better life?  Or was she just too old /too entrenched in her lifestyle, beliefs, values?  Do you think she's typical of kids who make it to their teen years in foster care?

She's 17. I'm up on points so I'm going to run out the clock.

If I went back to the beginning, no there was no chance of winning her over. I think she might have tried to like me and to do good things for herself at least at first, and she may have genuinely believed she was on the way to something better. But ultimately her decision to be adopted was more about getting access to a better setup for adult life than she had in foster care.

In terms of foster care, there's no "typical" except that it's not the child's fault he or she is in the system. It's because the kid has been systematically failed by a great many adults already.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

... I would have too, except she didn't start in with the cussing, disobedience, hitting, wall pounding, door breaking, lying, truancy, fraud, runaway behavior, or false reports until after the paperwork was signed ...

There were some reports of minor violent behavior in her file from the more distant past (as in ~2 years before) but nothing on this scale. Several shrinks, two treatment foster care parents, some teachers, and a bunch of social workers swore up and down that she'd made some significant permanent changes. I was enough of a dumbass to believe them. The contract I signed requires me to tolerate her abuse and to support her financially no matter what until she turns 18.

Makes me think about the old story about boiling a frog:  If you toss a frog into boiling water, he'll jump out and save himself.  But if you put him into room-temperature water, he'll fail to notice the change in temperature until things have heated up to the point that he can't escape.  (Not that I've ever actually boiled a frog.)

In this situation, the girl didn't jump straight to her major-bad-behavior.  No, she eased into it, so you didn't recognize it for what it was at first. 

From what you're saying, I have the impression that she's smart.  She probably did improve her behavior around those shrinks, foster care parents, teachers, etc.  She was trying to get adopted and knew good behavior would behoove her.

She didn't ease into it. She unleashed it a couple weeks after the ink was dry and she woke up from a nightmare screaming: "I can't get out, I can't get out." Really I can't make myself dislike the kid or fault her for anything she's done; she's a prisoner of her own perspective. It's like if everyone was wearing sunglasses and saw the world a little bit differently, her lenses have a giant crack in them not of her making.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Oh my gosh. I didn't realize you had this kind of adoption nightmare going on in your life. Can't offer anything more than best wishes for you.

Honestly, it takes a certain kind of talent to lie and cajole the way your daughter can. She'll probably be fine, maybe not the kind of life that we'd consider "fine", but fine by her standards.

Good lord, I hope you get out of this nightmare soon.

She'll live.

For me I'd hardly call it a nightmare. It's annoying and distracting, and I don't especially enjoy being hit, but realistically I can take the worst she's got without blinking. I'm taller and far stronger, with more than twice her muscle mass, and she's refused every opportunity to learn any form of empty-hand so I can see every one of her movements coming. It's not like I'm being shot at. (Which has happened-- it wasn't done well, obviously-- and it was really offensive particularly since I didn't succeed in hunting down the jerk who did it). The verbal abuse isn't particularly pleasant, particularly since it is repetitive and lacks originality. It's a thundering bore actually.

Compared to my daughter, I've got it easy. I'm the adult: I'm the one with all the power. I've got a great work ethic, several legitimate ways to earn a living, some assets, and solid connections in a healthy community. These are all things she hasn't got and may never acquire despite my best efforts. Sure, I'm mildly trapped at the moment but I can breathe and none of my limbs are in immediate danger, plus I see a way out. SHE, however, is living a nightmare and I greatly fear that for her there's no way out.

Because my legal obligation to her has a time limit, I can work the escape given sufficient time. In the meantime it's important for me to not take any of this stuff personally. I didn't make the train wreck and am (at most) part of the cleanup crew. Meanwhile, there's stuff I can influence and stuff I'm simply not going to be able to change and will have to focus chiefly on containment. There's a special approach I take to the stuff I can't influence:

I once had a very close shave
With a fuck that I just about gave:
But it knew it was mine,
So it stepped back in line,
And it taught the rest how to behave.

Maximum effort for the stuff that matters, that I can actually influence. A raised middle finger to the rest, and I'll get to it if and when it suits me.

[Padonak]

There is an elephant in the room which I'm not going to call out, because I'm here to learn how to make/save/invest my money, not to start controversial discussions and get banned for that.

Anyway, best of luck to you, TheGrimSqueaker.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

There is an elephant in the room which I'm not going to call out, because I'm here to learn how to make/save/invest my money, not to start controversial discussions and get banned for that.

Anyway, best of luck to you, TheGrimSqueaker.

Thanks, I think we'll need it. I'm somewhat cracked myself, some of the things I consider "not important" probably are, and it doesn't help that my positive regard for her is eroding due to her conduct.

To return the thread to its original direction, my daughter and the members of her bio-family I've met so far do practice a form of the strategy recommended in the article. Although some of them do get paid in cash, they convert it into some other form as quickly as practical, leaving only enough to pay for living expenses. They believe that carrying large sums of cash is physically dangerous. I think they're right. But whereas I might put money in a bank or investment, they do something different. They consume as much as possible before the resource disappears.

I'm reminded of sharks in a feeding frenzy: nothing is set aside for the future and it appears to me that when they're on a spree the only thing that will stop them is running out of money and being unable to borrow more. There's doubtlessly some survival imperative there below the surface, otherwise the behavior wouldn't be so urgent or so consistent. I haven't been able to train it out.

If there's any conscious decision making being done during a buying spree, the person doing it buys something that could later be sold, pawned, or traded if necessary. In the meantime, the goodies are a status symbol if shown in public, a relationship builder if distributed among friends and family members, and a confidence builder if enjoyed in private (much like the gold referenced in the original article).

I can't tell whether the "use it up ASAP" mentality comes out of psychology or culture. But it sure undermines wealth building.

[MrsPete]

It's because the kid has been systematically failed by a great many adults already.

That is a sad, sad statement.  Yes, with her being 17 you're almost done with your obligation -- though I assume she'll stick with you through high school graduation (hopefully), which would probably put her past 18.  She can't see that you're offering her so much more than her bio-family.  You're a good person for trying.

[GettingClose]

I adopted four kids (ages 7,8,10, and 11) over three adoptions, and only one, now 30, has been able to move up a class or to become a happy, useful, caring human being.  I still have hopes for the youngest one; she may yet pull things together. We too had all the false accusations, manipulation, physical violence, stealing, lying, and heartbreak.  Stay strong and get her to 18 - you never know what affect your efforts may have years down the road.

It does seem like the early patterns of survival are almost impossible to remold.

[Meerca$h]

Ahahaha. Wow. re: the original post...this has got to be a joke, right? Some sort of parody?

*facepalms so hard she swallows her hand*

Just...yeah. This blows my mind. And makes a complete mockery of any, ya know, regular people struggling day to day with the actual realities of debt. I think we need to add 'Reading Mamamia' to this list of debt mistakes. You have a safe full of gold and silver? good for you. I have a drawer full of overdue bills which I look in every day and I realise, 'Oh wait, I do have debts!'. Please.

[The Money Monk]

I thought this thread was going to be about a credit-blowout scheme.

After credit card churning for the signup bonuses and collecting about 20 credit cards and well over $100K in available credit , it did occur to me that such a scheme would be possible (max out the cards buying gold, bury it in backyard, then declare bankruptcy.)

Of course people who have the financial stability to amass 6 figure credit lines aren't typically willing to destroy their credit/be a dirtbag for 'only' that much, but I'm sure it happens occasionally.

[WhiteTrashCash]

There is an elephant in the room which I'm not going to call out, because I'm here to learn how to make/save/invest my money, not to start controversial discussions and get banned for that.

Anyway, best of luck to you, TheGrimSqueaker.

Thanks, I think we'll need it. I'm somewhat cracked myself, some of the things I consider "not important" probably are, and it doesn't help that my positive regard for her is eroding due to her conduct.

To return the thread to its original direction, my daughter and the members of her bio-family I've met so far do practice a form of the strategy recommended in the article. Although some of them do get paid in cash, they convert it into some other form as quickly as practical, leaving only enough to pay for living expenses. They believe that carrying large sums of cash is physically dangerous. I think they're right. But whereas I might put money in a bank or investment, they do something different. They consume as much as possible before the resource disappears.

I'm reminded of sharks in a feeding frenzy: nothing is set aside for the future and it appears to me that when they're on a spree the only thing that will stop them is running out of money and being unable to borrow more. There's doubtlessly some survival imperative there below the surface, otherwise the behavior wouldn't be so urgent or so consistent. I haven't been able to train it out.

If there's any conscious decision making being done during a buying spree, the person doing it buys something that could later be sold, pawned, or traded if necessary. In the meantime, the goodies are a status symbol if shown in public, a relationship builder if distributed among friends and family members, and a confidence builder if enjoyed in private (much like the gold referenced in the original article).

I can't tell whether the "use it up ASAP" mentality comes out of psychology or culture. But it sure undermines wealth building.

I grew up in poverty and I talk a little bit about that mentality in my journal. Growing up, money seemed like magic and it could vanish at any time seemingly randomly in a tsunami of taxes and bills. I learned to spend every penny I had as quickly as possible for material good (in particular food), before fees and bills took it away. It is very hard to break away from that mode of thinking. Even now, all these years later, I still have the urge to spend windfalls, before I calm myself down and think rationally about it.

The poor and needy have highly developed fight or flight mechanisms and they are accustomed to high danger at all times. That's why they handle money so poorly. The instincts that allow them to survive become a liability when the opportunity appears to improve their social class.

[9-Volt]

When I read this all I could think of, is why you would tell ever anyone that you have a safe full of Bullion.

example A http://bc.ctvnews.ca/750-000-in-silver-bullion-stolen-from-b-c-home-1.608756
I sure hope these ppl paid their dept's first.

[stoaX]

I adopted four kids (ages 7,8,10, and 11) over three adoptions, and only one, now 30, has been able to move up a class or to become a happy, useful, caring human being.  I still have hopes for the youngest one; she may yet pull things together. We too had all the false accusations, manipulation, physical violence, stealing, lying, and heartbreak.  Stay strong and get her to 18 - you never know what affect your efforts may have years down the road.

It does seem like the early patterns of survival are almost impossible to remold.

I adopted older children as well.  The baggage they come with can be overwhelming.  I love your sentence above (in bold).

[zephyr911]

Based on the topic title I was expecting this to be about burying a bunch of gold somewhere and then declaring bankruptcy.  I'm disappointed.  I was expecting a good story.

Same, I was hoping for a good story of someone using 50 credit cards to buy a couple Million in gold and then declare bankruptcy and through some insane loophole keep all the gold.  Instead, it truely was a dumpster fire.

This is so crazy it just might work....